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View Full Version : Shawn Williams' troubles don't end after leaving the Pacers



plutarch
02-26-2009, 01:37 PM
http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/mavs/2009/02/mavericks-whack-bucks-116-96.html


Williams taking leave: If you haven't noticed Shawne Williams on the Mavericks' bench lately, there's a reason.

He's not there.

Williams has been in Memphis for the last month or so, ostensibly to let a foot problem heal.

But owner Mark Cuban said Wednesday: "We're helping him work through some issues.''

According to the Mavericks' players' log, the 6-9 forward has not been with the team for "personal reasons" since Jan. 23.

It is believed the Mavericks have resigned themselves to playing the rest of the season without Williams, who played only 15 games before his departure. When he was acquired in a trade in October for Eddie Jones and two second-round draft picks, Williams brought with him substantial off-the-court troubles. At the time, coach Rick Carlisle said: "If any of that stuff ever came up again, his (butt) would be grass and me, Donnie (Nelson) and Mark would be the lawnmowers. It's got to be professional all the way.''

Nelson said that, for now, Williams and Gerald Green are in the same boat: "Our focus is 100 percent on the playoffs and the development of young players right now has to be secondary,'' he said.

The Mavericks are on the hook for Williams' salary next season, about $2.4 million.

Spirit
02-26-2009, 01:40 PM
Wow, some tough quotes there.

Country Boy
02-26-2009, 01:42 PM
My mind drifts back to when a few posters on this board defended Williams to the hilt and flamed anyone who said he didn't deserve a third or fourth chance.

Speed
02-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Shawne's situation is sad. I hope the kid turns it around, but it seems less likely all the time.

He has the talent and ability.

I wish someone like TMac would reach out to him. TMac basically said at one point, enough of this, I need to take care of my business and not let outside influences destroy his career and finances. I think it was an "outside the lines" maybe that I saw that on about TMac.

Trader Joe
02-26-2009, 02:00 PM
I LOL remembering Calipari defending Shawne's attitude right before the draft, and everyone was like, "His coach says he's ok, it must be true!"

Speed
02-26-2009, 02:03 PM
I LOL remembering Calipari defending Shawne's attitude right before the draft, and everyone was like, "His coach says he's ok, it must be true!"

Well, you hoped it was true. Although, Calipari isn't necessarily one of the guys I would put alot of stock into his word.

Trader Joe
02-26-2009, 02:12 PM
Well, you hoped it was true. Although, Calipari isn't necessarily one of the guys I would put alot of stock into his word.

Ya, think?

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 02:19 PM
He has the talent and ability.

That seems to be about as much of a reach as drafting him as high as he was taken.

He's been exactly what you expect from a mid-second rounder. Some (but not enough) talent, and some (but probably too much) baggage.

McKeyFan
02-26-2009, 02:21 PM
Well, one good result is that it looks like Bird may have finally figured it out. Hibbert and Rush were good picks from a character standpoint.

Speed
02-26-2009, 02:29 PM
That seems to be about as much of a reach as drafting him as high as he was taken.

He's been exactly what you expect from a mid-second rounder. Some (but not enough) talent, and some (but probably too much) baggage.



Really, I disagree. I don't think it's a reach at all to say he has the physical ability to play in the league. I'd say he can shoot exceptionally well and when in shape is athletic enough to be a quality rotation player in the league. I look at James Jones and he's had a career in the league. Now, he's wasted any ability/talent he has.

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 02:42 PM
But all he could do was shoot, and his FG% wasn't that high either.

He was a weak defender, weak ballhandler, weak in traffic.

James Jones could shoot, was a good defender at college, and then there's the "don't say it but its true" element - James Jones was smart. And with that intelligence, James Jones figured out that he could create a role/ niche for himself and found himself in places where he could contribute.

Shawne Williams and smart are only used in the same sentence if the words "not" or "not very" are included. Otherwise, its a violation of the rules of the English language.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 02:58 PM
Those two second round draft picks look pretty good right about now.

Trader Joe
02-26-2009, 02:58 PM
That seems to be about as much of a reach as drafting him as high as he was taken.

He's been exactly what you expect from a mid-second rounder. Some (but not enough) talent, and some (but probably too much) baggage.

Shawne was drafted 17th overall.

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I see what you were saying.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Those two second round draft picks look pretty good right about now.


Only if Bird doesn't waste them on another Lorbek and Stanko.

Bird could have drafted Ryan Gomes or Andre Blatche instead of Lorbek, and he could have drafted Mark Gasol or Paul Milsap instead of Stanko.:mad:

ChicagoJ
02-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Right - The immediate reactions from ESPN were really right on - it was a huuuuggge reach to take Shawne where we did.

Two GMS out of 30 fall in love with him and his stock rises. Whichever of those two GMs "won" the right to draft him was bound to look foolish for wasting a mid-teen pick on him.

The flip side of the argument is that mid-teen picks don't usually work out as starters or even rotation players either, so it wasn't that bad of gamble.

The most important word of the preceeding paragraph is: gamble.

duke dynamite
02-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Only if Bird doesn't waste them on another Lorbrk and Stanko.

Bird could have drafted Ryan Gomes or Andre Blatche instead of Lorbek, and he could have drafted Mark Gasol or Paul Milsap instead of Stanko.:mad:
The problem is that you don't always know.

sweabs
02-26-2009, 03:49 PM
His name makes me think of Rajon Rondo.

pacergod2
02-26-2009, 04:06 PM
Shawne Williams' athleticism was easily that of a top ten pick. His potential was easily worthy of a top ten pick. His maturity, attitude and lack of intelligence however are not worth being in the league. If he doesn't change the two of those three things he CAN control, then he is a waste and disappointment.

It is way too easy to say now that he was not worth our 17th pick. I don't ever second guess that pick, because Williams was clearly the most "talented" player on the draft board. But unfortunately, for everybody involved, Williams is a 21 year old with a 12 year old's maturity. He won't make it in the NBA until he changes his attitude about how he goes about his life, and his game. When he respects himself and the game he makes a living at, he has a chance to stay in this league and be a pretty damn good player. However, nobody sees it in him any more, even if they hope for it to be there. He is easily a big disappointment, but at the 17th pick you only get a Danny Granger once in a lifetime. Most 17th picks don't make it in the league beyond their rookie deal. Let's hope we strike lightning two out of three times with our boy Hibbert. Williams is the reason why we went with "mature" players last draft, which I am perfectly happy with.

Oh and when looking at second round picks.... there are 30 of them. Usually only about 2 or 3 per draft pan out. So for us to say we wasted picks on Stanko and Lorbek, its like throwing darts with a blindfold on. My problem is the philosophy of those picks. I HATE HATE HATE drafting foreign players in the second round, unless its strictly for monetary purposes. I am big on taking college seniors in the second round. Guys with a little bit of a chip on their shoulder who are just glad to be in the NBA and will bust their asses while there. I would fill my bench with more of those guys and less "potential", which is the downfall of a lot of players. They know they can get by on potential and never work toward actually being better. That unfortunately carries over as a life philosophy for these players.

Thank you Shawne Williams for your time here. You had your chance and your potential is leaving you standing there waving good bye. You might understand some day.

aceace
02-26-2009, 04:07 PM
It's sad to see a guy blow millions of potential dollars because of friends, friends that most likely are tagging along for the ride. Once the moneys gone, they likely will be also. It's not too late for him at this point. Very few recover from this.

Hicks
02-26-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm glad we cut bait when we did.

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 05:04 PM
Only if Bird doesn't waste them on another Lorbek and Stanko.

Bird could have drafted Ryan Gomes or Andre Blatche instead of Lorbek, and he could have drafted Mark Gasol or Paul Milsap instead of Stanko.:mad:

In 2001, Gilbert Arenas was the 30th pick. Only 11 of the previous 29 picks are currently starters.

In 2002, Carlos Boozer was the 34th pick. Only 7 of the previous 33 picks are starters (and that includes Dunleavy and Drew Gooden).

In 2003, Mo Williams was the 47th pick. 14 of the previous 46 picks were starters.

In 2004, Al Jefferson was the 15th pick. Of the 14 guys picked ahead of him, only Dwight Howard is better.

In 2005, Monta Ellis was the 40th pick.

If you're going to count missed 2nd round picks as the grade of a GM, you're going to be flunking every GM in the NBA. It's not a good measuring stick. You can't kill Bird (or any other GM) for passing on a guy who hardly anybody wanted during the draft. You can only really kill a GM for passing on a guy when he does something like drafting Marvin Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

To apply this to the Pacers, I think you can criticize Bird all you want for the Shawne Williams pick, but I don't think it's fair at all to blast him for not drafting Blatche, Amir Johnson, Paul Millsap or Leon Powe.

pacergod2
02-26-2009, 05:20 PM
I am standing up applauding your post right now Melli. Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

idioteque
02-26-2009, 05:29 PM
In 2001, Gilbert Arenas was the 30th pick. Only 11 of the previous 29 picks are currently starters.

In 2002, Carlos Boozer was the 34th pick. Only 7 of the previous 33 picks are starters (and that includes Dunleavy and Drew Gooden).

In 2003, Mo Williams was the 47th pick. 14 of the previous 46 picks were starters.

In 2004, Al Jefferson was the 15th pick. Of the 14 guys picked ahead of him, only Dwight Howard is better.

In 2005, Monta Ellis was the 40th pick.

If you're going to count missed 2nd round picks as the grade of a GM, you're going to be flunking every GM in the NBA. It's not a good measuring stick. You can't kill Bird (or any other GM) for passing on a guy who hardly anybody wanted during the draft. You can only really kill a GM for passing on a guy when he does something like drafting Marvin Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

To apply this to the Pacers, I think you can criticize Bird all you want for the Shawne Williams pick, but I don't think it's fair at all to blast him for not drafting Blatche, Amir Johnson, Paul Millsap or Leon Powe.

True, but when people are venting anger about this, I think it is more just about frustration that we didn't get lucky as opposed to actual incompetence by the GM. I would prefer, however, if we drafted more American players who had played against adequate competition to get you ready for the NBA as opposed to guys who appear to be playing in second or third tier European leagues. Yes, there have been a few guys from leagues like this or from smaller universities that have succeeded in the NBA, but it never seems to be likely.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2009, 08:48 PM
I think you can criticize Bird all you want for the Shawne Williams pick, but I don't think it's fair at all to blast him for not drafting Blatche, Amir Johnson, Paul Millsap or Leon Powe.


I believe it is totally fair to hold Bird accountable for wasting picks on Lorbek and Stanko. His fascination for Euro players has never panned out! Add that to his 06 picks and to me it just verifies my belief Bird doesn't really know talent.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2009, 08:53 PM
Oh and when looking at second round picks.... there are 30 of them. Usually only about 2 or 3 per draft pan out.


What is your definition of panning out? Allstar, starter, rotational player? What?

NuffSaid
02-26-2009, 09:24 PM
Really, I disagree. I don't think it's a reach at all to say he has the physical ability to play in the league. I'd say he can shoot exceptionally well and when in shape is athletic enough to be a quality rotation player in the league. I look at James Jones and he's had a career in the league. Now, he's wasted any ability/talent he has.
I don't think anyone is questioning Shawn's ability to play. It's his attitude and the propensity for trouble to continuously find him (or he keeps finding trouble - you decide!...).

MyFavMartin
02-26-2009, 09:27 PM
Wonder if his agent will file a grievance... :rolleyes:

NapTonius Monk
02-26-2009, 09:30 PM
I believe it is totally fair to hold Bird accountable for wasting picks on Lorbek and Stanko. His fascination for Euro players has never panned out! Add that to his 06 picks and to me it just verifies my belief Bird doesn't really know talent.

I don't think he's overly fascinated with Euro players, so much as a 2nd round pick isn't that big a gamble for a GM to take a player and stash him overseas to continue his development. He isn't the only one that does this, and it doesn't necessarily mean the pick has been wasted. Larry did say Lorbek is at a point where they'll have to make a decision on him soon, so that doesn't sound too promising, but I do hope Barac comes over soon so we can get a look at him.

MyFavMartin
02-26-2009, 09:49 PM
hard to take a player in the 2nd (that you can't stash in Europe) when you'd have to cut a guaranteed contract for the roster spot.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2009, 10:13 PM
hard to take a player in the 2nd (that you can't stash in Europe) when you'd have to cut a guaranteed contract for the roster spot.


2nd round players contracts don't have to be guaranteed.

Pacersfan46
02-26-2009, 11:41 PM
2nd round players contracts don't have to be guaranteed.

I think the point is that to keep the 2nd round pick on our current roster, we'd have to be cutting someone else because we've had so many guaranteed contracts lately.

Picking Europeans means we don't have to cut anyone we have already given a contract to. They can stay in Europe and keep playing.

-- Steve --

Bball
02-27-2009, 12:25 AM
We can discuss this forever but one point remains:
Isn't it nice we acted decisively and let SW be someone else's problem?

Anthem
02-27-2009, 01:04 AM
What is your definition of panning out? Allstar, starter, rotational player? What?
I'd settle for "make the team."

A lot of us were frustrated when he drafted Shawne instead of Rondo, though. I mean, even with a best-case scenario, where's Shawne gonna play? Let's say he's amazing... how does he get court time? He's not getting Granger's minutes, that's for sure.

Rondo would have been nice.

Peck
02-27-2009, 01:55 AM
I'd settle for "make the team."

A lot of us were frustrated when he drafted Shawne instead of Rondo, though. I mean, even with a best-case scenario, where's Shawne gonna play? Let's say he's amazing... how does he get court time? He's not getting Granger's minutes, that's for sure.

Rondo would have been nice.

Best case scenario would have been for Shawne to grow into the powerforward spot. If he could have you would have had two athletic players in the front court. Even if he could never have grown into the p.f. spot Danny certainly has spent enough time over the years there to have been ok with it. At worst you would have had a decent trading chip.

However, as I said, this was best case scenario.

Bird did make a mistake here, no doubt about it. However unlike his predecessor he did not sit on it, conjole it and hope it would turn. He took action and corrected it.

Even if it meant cutting his losses.

He gave Shawne a chance when he missed his court date, after that though he was on his way out the door.

It's to bad really because he did have some basketball talent, but like Kenny Williams from all of those years ago he will probably never recognize it.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2009, 03:14 AM
Wow, some tough quotes there.
When Rick talks like that in the press then you've been F'n up for sure. RC's gotta be the most diplomatic press coach around.

I still stand by Shawne having Granger caliber game, maybe more. His issue obviously is not an on-court thing and it's looking like ability wasn't a problem here either.

Peck, I'd say Shawne is more talented than Kenny was even, which makes it all that more disappointing. I bet Bird was really ticked at how that went because I think he did make a good pick based on ability.


He was a weak defender, weak ballhandler, weak in traffic.This just isn't true. He was WAY ahead of Granger going to the rim in traffic for example. Shawne was the guy making those brilliant takes for dunks/layups on breaks where Danny was fumbling and awkward with it (along with the rest of the team). Where we see Granger finally getting to this year is where Shawne was right away. Williams also leaned more toward the PF end of the SF role whereas Granger plays toward the SG side of it, thus his sometimes low rebounding.

Granger has become a great help defender and shot blocker but he's still getting beat off ball fakes and stuff like a rookie. His on-ball mistakes remain his biggest weakness now that he's finally got a dribble drive.

Talent-wise Bird/TPTB nearly had back to back steals at the 17 spot. The biggest issue at the time seemed to be that you just had 3 SFs on the team and had to ask Shawne or Danny to swing to the PF spot.

count55
02-27-2009, 08:39 AM
I'd settle for "make the team."

The entire draft is a crap shoot, but the second round is really a long shot. From my earlier draft analysis


The "Second Round" (31 to 60) - (720 picks since 1982, 482 played)

The Accolades

Rookie Awards - No Rookies of the Year during this timeframe were taken this late. About 2% (17) of the players taken between 31 and 60 were named to either the 1st or 2nd rookie team.

All Star Appearances - 13 draftees in this group, or about 2%, have been named to at least one All-Star Game. Two have made multiple appearances.

All NBA Teams - Only about 1% (5) of this group have been named to at least one All NBA Team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd). None of these have earned this honor multiple times.

All Defense Teams - Just 5 players in this group (1%) have been named to All Defense team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd), one of them earning multiple mentions.

Individual Awards - Though this is clearly an incomplete sample, Drazen Petrovic is the only player that has already been inducted into the Hall of Fame.

No players have been named league MVP or Defensive Player of the Year. There have been three Sixth Man of the Years (Anthony Mason, Clifford Robinson), and four Most Improved Players (Kevin Duckworth, Isaac Austin, Bobby Simmons, Monta Ellis). There have been no Finals MVP's.

Production Groups


1. Group 1 0.0%
2. Grp 2 0.6%
3. Grp 3 2.3%
4. Grp 4 9.1%
5. Grp 5 22.4%
6. Grp 6 65.6%


Going the other way, here are the Group 1, Group 2 and Group 3 players...(the stars):


Group 1: None

Group 2: Carlos Boozer, Jeff Hornacek, Rashard Lewis


Group 3: Mehmet Okur, Manu Ginobili, Michael Redd, Cuttino Mobley, Nick Van Exel, Anthony Mason, Clifford Robinson, Stephen Jackson, Monta Ellis, Hot Rod Williams, Doc Rivers

Conclusion on "Second Round"

There's no question that the two lists above have some very productive players, but you shouldn't let that fool you for expectations. The numbers say that a full 1/3 of all the second round picks taken over the last 26 years have never played a game in the NBA. If you add that to the Group 5 and Group 6 players, almost 92% of the players taken in this range have not given meaningful production (or even minimal) production to the team that drafted them.

Anything better than a fringe role player, deep bench guy could be considered between very and wildly optimistic for this range.


I've been meaning to update this, but three and a half hours a day in a car kind of cuts into my time to do meaningful analysis. One thing on the second round I want to look at is to see if the hit rate is going up or down.

However, where Bird hasn't gotten anything out of the second round, he's basically replaced those results with his cheap free agent acquisitions. Travis Diener, Stephen Graham, and Kareem Rush have all produced better than the large majority of second round picks.

While it appears doubtful that Lorbek will ever play, it is premature to make comment on Barac. It was not intended that he come over for several years, and he's still only 22 years old. After all, he is almost two years younger than Marc Gasol, drafted in the same class, but not playing until this year.


A lot of us were frustrated when he drafted Shawne instead of Rondo, though. I mean, even with a best-case scenario, where's Shawne gonna play? Let's say he's amazing... how does he get court time? He's not getting Granger's minutes, that's for sure.

Rondo would have been nice.

I was not one of them. I was not particularly thrilled about the Shawne Williams pick, but I had grave misgivings about Rondo at the time. IMO, I had seen few players at that level so completely unable to shoot the ball.

While it would be silly to argue that he would not have been a better pick than Shawne, I still have lingering doubts as to whether Rajon Rondo on the Pacers would be as good as Rajon Rondo on the Celtics. In hindsight, I'd certainly take him, but I just can't say with any conviction that I'm sure that would have solved our PG dilemma.


I still stand by Shawne having Granger caliber game, maybe more. His issue obviously is not an on-court thing and it's looking like ability wasn't a problem here either.

The problem with this proposition is that is confuses skills with actual game. Or, more accurately, it ignores that the reason that Danny is a good basketball player is owing, perhaps more than any shooting or other skill, to his intelligence, effort, and ethic. Danny is a player who is being built, not a player who was born.

In his debut in Chicago, Shawne seemed to "belong" on the floor. He had innate skills, and seemed to have a comfort and presence that Danny never showed. It was understandable to look at him and have visions of success, but after a while, it became obvious that it was never going to come.

Sure, there are cases where injuries or tragedies prevent someone from utilizing their skills to become good or great players. Shawne isn't one of them. NBA history is littered with players who failed, many of whom exhibited attributes that excited the imaginations of GM's, coaches, scouts, and fans alike.

It's easy to look at many of those players and still catch glimpses of their potential, but potential is meaningless. For all of Shawne's attributes that captured the eye, to me it's apparent that he simply did not have what it took to be a good (or even passable) NBA player.

Cory
02-27-2009, 09:13 AM
No one even knows whats going on with Shawn. It is NOT RIGHT to assume that he is doing something wrong. I can tell you straight up that i have missed time from work before for PERSONAL REASONS and i wasn't doing a damn thing wrong.

The team is helping him work out some issues. Maybe there's been a tragedy in his life. Maybe he has lost a child, parent or someone close. Maybe he is having a hard time with that.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2009, 10:04 AM
I think the point is that to keep the 2nd round pick on our current roster, we'd have to be cutting someone else because we've had so many guaranteed contracts lately.

Picking Europeans means we don't have to cut anyone we have already given a contract to. They can stay in Europe and keep playing.

-- Steve --



Every year the Pacers roster changes, players come and they go. This year will be a prime example. Having a non-guaranteed contract or two on a roster at the #13-15 players gives a team freedom to make future choices. Many NBA teams have players with non-guaranteed or partial guaranteed contracts. It gives them an advantage over other teams who have all their contracts guaranteed.

Bird dropped the ball with White signing him to a guaranteed contract for 2 years and then cutting him. Thus costing the Simons approximately a milion dollars. He could have just as easily been signed to a non-guaranteed contract. IMO, that is what should be done with 2nd round picks. You then lose nothing if you need or want to cut the player for whatever reason.

Euro players are usually selected in the late 40 to 60 range b/c the team that selects them keeps the rights to them when they play overseas, teams don't have to pay the players, and the player hones his skills in Europe at no investment to a team.

duke dynamite
02-27-2009, 10:08 AM
We can discuss this forever but one point remains:
Isn't it nice we acted decisively and let SW be someone else's problem?
That is acceptable.

OakMoses
02-27-2009, 11:05 AM
he could have drafted Mark Gasol... instead of Stanko.:mad:


I believe it is totally fair to hold Bird accountable for wasting picks on Lorbek and Stanko. His fascination for Euro players has never panned out!

So, It's bad to draft Euro players, unless they're named Marc Gasol?

ABADays
02-27-2009, 11:33 AM
It's sad to see a guy blow millions of potential dollars because of friends, friends that most likely are tagging along for the ride. Once the moneys gone, they likely will be also. It's not too late for him at this point. Very few recover from this.

I agree. When millions can't motivate you to stayon the straight and narrow you've got some big problems.

ChicagoJ
02-27-2009, 11:58 AM
Kenny Williams had a long professional career in Israel/ Europe. Just because he wasn't in the NBA doesn't mean he didn't make a career out of his skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Williams_(basketball)

I'd say Kenny Williams had more talent in his little finger than Shawne Williams had in his entire body. And while Kenny had some issues (like forgetting to pay his cell phone bill - remember when that was a "big deal" for off court controversy. Ah, the good old days) remember he squandered away a big-team D-I opportunity before he ended up at Elizabeth City C.C.

Its long been rumored that the only reason Shawne Williams was turning pro as early as he did was because he had already flunked out of Memphis, which I understand takes some work. Now, you can say that's probably true for most guys that declare themselves for the draft as undergrads, but you can also see a big difference in maturity/ "e.q." (emotional quotient) with some of the other guys drafted by the Pacers recently with more life experience/ college experience.

It takes far more than "mad skillz" to make a lasting impact in the NBA.

(Maybe I'm still trying to justify that "Williams 44" Pacers jersey in my dresser. :D )

Anthem
02-27-2009, 05:31 PM
I was not one of them. I was not particularly thrilled about the Shawne Williams pick, but I had grave misgivings about Rondo at the time. IMO, I had seen few players at that level so completely unable to shoot the ball.

While it would be silly to argue that he would not have been a better pick than Shawne, I still have lingering doubts as to whether Rajon Rondo on the Pacers would be as good as Rajon Rondo on the Celtics. In hindsight, I'd certainly take him, but I just can't say with any conviction that I'm sure that would have solved our PG dilemma.
Oh, I'm certain he wouldn't be as good if he didn't get to learn from Pierce, Allen, and KG.

But how much worse would he be? Could he still be a lockdown defender at PG that could create off the dribble, handle the biggest perimeter threat, allow Dun to make plays at SG while defending Dun's man?

Everyone knew his limitations. That's why he wasn't a lotto pick. But he'd have been very solid at #17, and lots of folks were hoping for him.

count55
02-27-2009, 05:37 PM
Oh, I'm certain he wouldn't be as good if he didn't get to learn from Pierce, Allen, and KG.

But how much worse would he be? Could he still be a lockdown defender at PG that could create off the dribble, handle the biggest perimeter threat, allow Dun to make plays at SG while defending Dun's man?

Everyone knew his limitations. That's why he wasn't a lotto pick. But he'd have been very solid at #17, and lots of folks were hoping for him.

Like I said, I'd take him in hindsight. I guess I have too much experience in my professional life of finding out exactly "how much worse it/he could be," and it's always stunning. Also, the Pacers always seem to manage to get the worst case scenario result.:p

Anthem
02-27-2009, 05:49 PM
I wish I could argue with that.

pacergod2
02-27-2009, 06:07 PM
Rondo had two things going for him at the draft.

1. He had extremely large hands for a PG, allowing him to have "good handles".
2. He was extremely fast, without being completely undersized.

He couldn't shoot a lick. And still can't. He is a very good basketball player now because he has been able to learn from three of the greatest players to ever play the game. Three exceptional competitors. Three exceptional people. He has the confidence of those three individuals. He has the confidence in himself. His errors will be overcome by the veteran's abilities and decision making. He can go out there and play free and he isn't being guarded by the oppositions best player. He isn't being double teamed. He is in a much better situation in Boston to start his career than what he would have been coming to Indiana. I hate saying that but its true. I think Rondo would have brought a lot to the table, but then again so did Shawne. I bet Shawne would be a much different player if he went to Boston instead of us. Our team is growing in that direction. The maturity is developing. The team is bonding. The players are growing in a basketball sense. We are headed in the right direction. It is impossible to compare two players who came into entirely different situations as young players. I would hope that Shawne gets his **** together and puts together a decent NBA career for himself. I hope he can learn a work ethic just like Darius Miles did for his own sake.

Doug
02-27-2009, 06:55 PM
Shawne was a gamble. I believe the idea was that he would have been a lottery pick if he stayed in school, so take him and see if you can get lottery talent with a mid-round pick.

We lost - that's why it's called gambling.

Bball
02-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Shawne was a gamble. I believe the idea was that he would have been a lottery pick if he stayed in school, so take him and see if you can get lottery talent with a mid-round pick.

We lost - that's why it's called gambling.

Then the real question should be whether the Pacers were in a position to gamble?

Doug
02-27-2009, 08:38 PM
Then the real question should be whether the Pacers were in a position to gamble?

I guess they could have played it safe and shot for being mediocre...

DrFife
02-27-2009, 10:55 PM
Rondo had two things going for him at the draft.

1. He had extremely large hands for a PG, allowing him to have "good handles".


It's been suggested that Rondo's poor shooting is due in part to his XXXL hands.

(Puerile humor of the day: Does that mean, then, that my late-night misfirings on the toilet seat are due to my...? :rolleyes:)

I wanted us to take Rondo for his defense & athleticism. I found out from an inside source a few hours before the draft, however, that Larry had made up his mind who he wanted ... and was confident that the guy would be there. Once we found out who that guy was, my immediate wondering was, "Athletic, okay, but is he still growing (into a PF)?"

Mel, your comment about not wanting another "true center" (or a SF-only) makes me giggle about the possibility (fantasy?) of Stanko coming over (whenever) and actually proving to be a capable back-up. That said, I believe Larry's post-trade-deadline comments suggest that he'd be keen on acquiring a second 1st-rounder ... again. Despite this year seeming to be a "weak" draft, doubling down on the draft again makes sense in terms of trying to crest in three years. Assuming we draft a PF or a PG with our first pick, then, I could see us choosing an athletic (backup) center (among a number of possibilities) like Memphis' Jerome Jordan (if he comes out) to cover for Rasho's expected departure. (See TBird's post: http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=858242&postcount=1.) That's IF we don't follow through on acquiring Tyson "Chicken" Chandler, of course.

Justin, you and I can toast to the fact that we were the first to post (on another site) our insistence, immediately after Williams' Carmel police episode, that he be traded. (If I recall correctly, though, you don't drink alcohol, so choose your preferred juice.) Intelligence + maturity = improved team chemistry. :buddies:

Pacersfan46
02-28-2009, 12:10 AM
Every year the Pacers roster changes, players come and they go. This year will be a prime example. Having a non-guaranteed contract or two on a roster at the #13-15 players gives a team freedom to make future choices. Many NBA teams have players with non-guaranteed or partial guaranteed contracts. It gives them an advantage over other teams who have all their contracts guaranteed.

Bird dropped the ball with White signing him to a guaranteed contract for 2 years and then cutting him. Thus costing the Simons approximately a milion dollars. He could have just as easily been signed to a non-guaranteed contract. IMO, that is what should be done with 2nd round picks. You then lose nothing if you need or want to cut the player for whatever reason.

Euro players are usually selected in the late 40 to 60 range b/c the team that selects them keeps the rights to them when they play overseas, teams don't have to pay the players, and the player hones his skills in Europe at no investment to a team.

Nothing you said contradicted what I said, or the point of the other guys post, so I really don't get what you're debating here .... other than Bird having too many guaranteed contracts. Which I never really said it was a good thing, just that it was the situation we have been in recently, that's all. Good, bad or ugly, that's probably the reasoning for the Euro picks.

-- Steve --

PacerGuy
02-28-2009, 01:04 AM
It's sad to see a guy blow millions of potential dollars because of friends, friends that most likely are tagging along for the ride. Once the moneys gone, they likely will be also. It's not too late for him at this point. Very few recover from this.
Take this for what you will, but I heard from a guy I know w/ connnections in the professional sports field, including some w/ the Pacers, that Sean's troubles are that his "friends" are "Crips" & "Bloods", from his days in Memphis. Word is he would hang out w/ guys from both sides, & got in too deep & wound up having to start paying them - both! When he tried to cut loose, they killed his brother & told him his mom would be next!
(The only thing worst then being caught between a "rock & a hard place" is caught between a "Crip" & a "Blood"!)
Now, I can not say I have 1st hand knowledge this is true, but I trust this guy - he works in a field where he has these connections. Thinking about it, it makes sense as to why he was always w/ the element of "friends" that constantly kept him in trouble. Sad too, because the word was the Pacers had people w/ "high-level agency connections" try & get Sean out of the mess & could not. When the Pacers realized this is when they moved him.

idioteque
02-28-2009, 12:01 PM
Shawne Williams was an incredibly terrible draft pick. I really hope that he was a charmer because this guy had character flaws written all over him and I really don't see how he could have duped TPTB at the team.

With the situation the Pacers were in at that time, we would have been much better served with an approach to the draft similar to that of last year.

Los Angeles
02-28-2009, 09:41 PM
Take this for what you will, but I heard from a guy I know w/ connnections in the professional sports field, including some w/ the Pacers, that Sean's troubles are that his "friends" are "Crips" & "Bloods", from his days in Memphis. Word is he would hang out w/ guys from both sides, & got in too deep & wound up having to start paying them - both! When he tried to cut loose, they killed his brother & told him his mom would be next!
(The only thing worst then being caught between a "rock & a hard place" is caught between a "Crip" & a "Blood"!)
Now, I can not say I have 1st hand knowledge this is true, but I trust this guy - he works in a field where he has these connections. Thinking about it, it makes sense as to why he was always w/ the element of "friends" that constantly kept him in trouble. Sad too, because the word was the Pacers had people w/ "high-level agency connections" try & get Sean out of the mess & could not. When the Pacers realized this is when they moved him.

Whoa.

That is some HEAVY S***.

If this is even remotely true, I feel really sorry for this kid.

Pacersfan46
02-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Take this for what you will, but I heard from a guy I know w/ connnections in the professional sports field, including some w/ the Pacers, that Sean's troubles are that his "friends" are "Crips" & "Bloods", from his days in Memphis. Word is he would hang out w/ guys from both sides, & got in too deep & wound up having to start paying them - both! When he tried to cut loose, they killed his brother & told him his mom would be next!
(The only thing worst then being caught between a "rock & a hard place" is caught between a "Crip" & a "Blood"!)
Now, I can not say I have 1st hand knowledge this is true, but I trust this guy - he works in a field where he has these connections. Thinking about it, it makes sense as to why he was always w/ the element of "friends" that constantly kept him in trouble. Sad too, because the word was the Pacers had people w/ "high-level agency connections" try & get Sean out of the mess & could not. When the Pacers realized this is when they moved him.

Not buying it. If true, they'd be in jail on murder charges among others things. There's no way you'd keep this under wraps.

However, if I believed it was true, I'd take a long hard look at my being a fan of the Pacers. To bail on a kid who could obviously need help in such a bad way ..... it would probably be one of the few things that could turn me off as a fan. How heartless would you have to be to turn your back on a kid like that .... I dunno.

Regardless I don't believe it. Not to mention if I knew someone had killed my brother ... they better not come to me for ****. I would kill you without hesitation. I wouldn't even care the repurcussions. I'd move my family members away where they couldn't find them, and start a war if I had to.

-- Steve --

Anthem
02-28-2009, 10:57 PM
However, if I believed it was true, I'd take a long hard look at my being a fan of the Pacers. To bail on a kid who could obviously need help in such a bad way ..... it would probably be one of the few things that could turn me off as a fan. How heartless would you have to be to turn your back on a kid like that .... I dunno.
They didn't "bail" on him. They moved him to a new environment. It was a legit trade from the Pacers' side, and Shawne hypothetically could have been better off in Dallas. Assuming the rumor is legit, on which I have no opinion one way or another.


Regardless I don't believe it. Not to mention if I knew someone had killed my brother ... they better not come to me for ****. I would kill you without hesitation.
What, you're going to take on every Crip and Blood in America?

That's the whole point of a gang... there's more than one of you.

Pacersfan46
02-28-2009, 11:18 PM
What, you're going to take on every Crip and Blood in America?

That's the whole point of a gang... there's more than one of you.

You clearly have no clue how gangs work. You really think that they have some worldwide network and give a damn what one set of 'crips' is doing in another city? Hell, even gangs within the same city waving the same color flags don't always get along, nor will they hesitate to kill each other.

99% of gangs run their own neighborhood and that's as far as their reach can, and will go. Crips in one city, most of the time won't even concern themselves with Crips on the other side of the same city, unless they're in jail where power is in numbers and they'll run together to keep themselves safe. So they certainly don't give a damn about Crips in a different city, or especially state.

It's just the way it is.

speakout4
02-28-2009, 11:33 PM
Then the real question should be whether the Pacers were in a position to gamble?
All the Pacers do is gamble. If you don't count this year there are two active 1st rounders that are still playing, Granger and Foster. Jones, Harrison, Brezec, Harrington, and tinsley all failed to pan out. So taking a kid with a single year at Memphis who had known problems was more wishful thinking than a gamble.
I hope Shawne does make it but it won't be with Dallas because they have no patience developing players. Just look at the Kidd for Harris trade.

jeffg-body
02-28-2009, 11:49 PM
Shawne was a gamble. I believe the idea was that he would have been a lottery pick if he stayed in school, so take him and see if you can get lottery talent with a mid-round pick.

We lost - that's why it's called gambling.

I have to agree with you there. IMO all 1st round picks can be risky. You never know what can happen regardless of a players reputation or what. If it is not off the court issues it can be one ACL tear away from a top draft pick being oridinary. The Pacers haven't been the only team bitten by the 1st round jinks, remember the Len Bias thing with Boston.

Anthem
03-01-2009, 12:14 AM
You clearly have no clue how gangs work. You really think that they have some worldwide network and give a damn what one set of 'crips' is doing in another city? Hell, even gangs within the same city waving the same color flags don't always get along, nor will they hesitate to kill each other.
So your theory is that the entire gang population of Memphis, TN is following Williams around America, first to Indy and now to Dallas?

Pacersfan46
03-01-2009, 02:51 AM
So your theory is that the entire gang population of Memphis, TN is following Williams around America, first to Indy and now to Dallas?

I don't have a theory because I don't even believe it's true. Partially because knowing how gangs work, this problem is too easily avoided. Inform the police, and move your family the hell out of there. Wah-La!

However, if true they don't need to follow you around. All they need to know is where to find someone you care about and threaten to kill them. If they know where your family is, they can threaten to kill them unless you do what they want. Rather simple, really.

You have to understand, these people will kill their own gang members to move up a step on the ladder. Let alone a member of another set, even if they're flying the same color flag.

-- Steve --

flox
03-01-2009, 01:00 PM
I don't have a theory because I don't even believe it's true. Partially because knowing how gangs work, this problem is too easily avoided. Inform the police, and move your family the hell out of there. Wah-La!

However, if true they don't need to follow you around. All they need to know is where to find someone you care about and threaten to kill them. If they know where your family is, they can threaten to kill them unless you do what they want. Rather simple, really.

You have to understand, these people will kill their own gang members to move up a step on the ladder. Let alone a member of another set, even if they're flying the same color flag.

-- Steve --

So what you are saying is that your local experience with gangs is good enough to deal with all gangs, especially national ones that you don't believe can happen because well..it can't because gang's are just too small?

What's next? Mobs are only confined to one city also?

There is no such thing as the national association of fishermen/firemen/drug dealers?

I don't want to make this into a discussion but the idea that gang's can't become national is ridiculous. Especially when the American army has them.

kester99
03-01-2009, 01:30 PM
I watched all the seasons of The Wire, so I know it's not "wah-la!"

voilą

 [vwah-lah; Fr. vwa-la] –interjection <TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD>(used to express success or satisfaction). Voilą, my new winter outfit!</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Also, voila.




<HR class=ety>Origin:
1825–35; < F, equiv. to voi see! (2nd pers. sing. impv. of voir to see) + la therehttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png




Dictionary.com Unabridged

PacerGuy
03-01-2009, 01:37 PM
Not buying it. If true, they'd be in jail on murder charges among others things. There's no way you'd keep this under wraps.

No one sits in jail for an unsolved crime. Not too many shootings w/o witnesses get solved.


However, if I believed it was true, I'd take a long hard look at my being a fan of the Pacers. To bail on a kid who could obviously need help in such a bad way ..... it would probably be one of the few things that could turn me off as a fan. How heartless would you have to be to turn your back on a kid like that .... I dunno.

:eek: Then, with your logic, are you as upset that the Pacers are "giving up" on Jammal Tinsley?
He too "needs help", but to use your example towards him, the Pacers are "bailing" on him then too. Why do I not see you posting about the teams actions towards him?
Point is, you can not help those who will not help themselves, & as TPTB, there is a responsibility to the "greater good". There are 14 orher players on a roster, and a fan base that are all affected by the actions of one. TPTB did the right thing by the other 14, by the entire fan base, & arguably by Shawne by moving him. You should be praising their actions, not critisizing them.
Also, the Pacers in no way "gave up on Shawne", they tried to get him out, but could not. The part I stated about "high agency connections" tells me they tried, but there are some situations that are just too tough to crack. Moving him away from the elements he was connected with here was a step towards helping ALL involved, IMO.


Regardless I don't believe it. Not to mention if I knew someone had killed my brother ... they better not come to me for ****. I would kill you without hesitation. I wouldn't even care the repurcussions. I'd move my family members away where they couldn't find them, and start a war if I had to.
-- Steve --

When your young, scared s***less, at rick of losing your entire future, & you are constantly in the public eye & can not just "hide", your options are not like those of John Q.Public who can just blend into society. Hell, I could go find Shawne if I wanted too, & I have no P.I. skills, or "connections" in doing so. Your comments make a good movie script, but are not very realilistic.

Los Angeles
03-01-2009, 02:26 PM
If the entire "13" Mexican mafia can be run from a prison cell and can result in the slayings of 100's of people each year on both sides of the border, with little to no convictions, then I think Shawn's family can be "gotten to" by a gang.

Don't know if the story's true, but to say a person can just walk away from something like that is naive beyond belief.

Anthem
03-01-2009, 03:00 PM
Don't know if the story's true,
Right. We're getting the story fourth-hand, so I wouldn't want to draw too many conclusions without more concrete info. That said...


but to say a person can just walk away from something like that is naive beyond belief.
Exactly. And the idea that you could kill your way out of trouble with a gang is even more so.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Okay, MagicRat is long overdue here with a photo job of Harry Callahan. I mean of course you can kill your way out of gang violence threats. Don't even get me started on the fine examples set out by Paul Kersey or John Matrix (not a gang, but organized violence).

With a big enough gun and a quick enough quip you can solve anything. Just don't go out like Pookie.

Pacersfan46
03-01-2009, 05:45 PM
No one sits in jail for an unsolved crime. Not too many shootings w/o witnesses get solved.

If they're blackmailing him, and are claiming they murdered his brother, that's not very 'unsolved'. They're admitting to it.


:eek: Then, with your logic, are you as upset that the Pacers are "giving up" on Jammal Tinsley?

There's a huge difference between a man putting himself in a position to get into those circumstances repeatedly, and someone being basically held captive by the threat of killing his family while trying to get away from it. Not even comparable really.


When your young, scared s***less, at rick of losing your entire future, & you are constantly in the public eye & can not just "hide", your options are not like those of John Q.Public who can just blend into society. Hell, I could go find Shawne if I wanted too, & I have no P.I. skills, or "connections" in doing so. Your comments make a good movie script, but are not very realilistic.

Shawne can't hide, no. However his family can. Like I said, for ME, repurcussions be damned. You're not going to decide my future for me or blackmail me. Nobody will ever point a gun at me and scare me into doing anything. I've already proven that. I know me, even in a crisis situation my pride won't allow me to let someone decide anything for me through the use of force. Realistic or not, I'm just telling you how I know I'd react.

That said, I take my survival tactics and such seriously. I wouldn't be sprinting in the front door toting 2 Uzi's and just trying to kill anything that moves. Much smarter than that.


If the entire "13" Mexican mafia can be run from a prison cell and can result in the slayings of 100's of people each year on both sides of the border, with little to no convictions, then I think Shawn's family can be "gotten to" by a gang.

Don't know if the story's true, but to say a person can just walk away from something like that is naive beyond belief.

A Mexican mafia involved with dealings of millions, even billions of dollars worth of drug trade controlling an entire countries border, and one set of gang members in a midwestern city are two totally different stories.

Larry Hoover ran his gang from jail too, but in the world of Gangster Disciples/Crips/Bloods and the like, the groups that can sustain that type of operation are exceedingly few and far between.

Some of you I think, watch too many TV gangster movies or what not and think it's the norm or something. It's not not even close.

Los Angeles
03-01-2009, 06:30 PM
Steve,

First off, my information does not come from the TV.

I live in Venice, CA. I get my information from extensive reading of the LA Times, LA Weekly, various books, and more importantly personal interactions with police, community groups and neighbors. There have been 3 shootings (thank god victimless) within 50 feet of my apartment in the last 3 years. There are red and blue and "Venice 13" tags all over the place, even on the fences of $3 million mansions. The closest "V-XIII" tag is 15 feet from my front door.

My neighbor 2 blocks over has a scarred section of sidewalk where five divots lay, one each for five shots to the head given to the relative of a guy who went into hiding. Nobody was arrested for that one.

THE POLICE RARELY CATCH THESE GUYS, though they ARE getting better at it. Right now, they are content to block off the entire neighborhood and come in like an army and round thugs up dozens at a time. The more often they do that, the more likely they are to catch these murderers for smaller crimes and pray that the California "3 strikes" law will go into effect. Without evidence, that's the best they hope for.

- - -

BUT THAT's LA. We're talking about Memphis

Regarding the differences between the LA and Memphis street scenes, if you want to tell me, from personal experience, either as a member of that Memphis community OR as a member of a police task force with intimate knowledge of that community, or as a researched expert in the field, something about it, then I will listen well. If you don't have actual knowledge of Memphis, I'd say you're out of your element to say that they are or are not connected.

Supposing something is so does not make it so.

Now, it is true that we are both "supposing" something, but there's a difference between our dissenting opinions. I'm saying something is possible, and under that umbrella, I can hazard a guess that it is possible.

You are saying it is NOT possible or at least that it is extremely unlikely. "Extremely unlikely" bears a heavier burden of proof than merely "possible", and I look forward to hearing more specifics on the Memphis situation to back up your "extremely unlikely" assessment.

That said, you do have some valid points, like Shawne sending his relatives into hiding (don't know how many of them there are or how practical that would be).

Bball
03-01-2009, 07:00 PM
However, if I believed it was true, I'd take a long hard look at my being a fan of the Pacers. To bail on a kid who could obviously need help in such a bad way ..... it would probably be one of the few things that could turn me off as a fan. How heartless would you have to be to turn your back on a kid like that .... I dunno.

-- Steve --

I hear Bird, after making a string of preparations, drove his Gran Torino to the apartment complex where the gang members were staying (no longer allowed at Williams' home)...

But nobody was home....

Pacersfan46
03-01-2009, 07:34 PM
If you live in LA, then you should know more about what I'm saying than anyone.

2 gangs flying the same blue flag but with different names for their sets on opposite ends of the city couldn't give a damn about each other. The way these gangs are structured doesn't lend itself to a nationwide movement. If 2 gangs running 2 totally different neighborhoods tried to merge it would be chaos. There would be a power struggle beyond belief and it usually won't end well.

The biggest difference isn't Memphis vs LA, or what not. The most obvious difference is that Mexican Mafia is organized crime. Crips/Bloods and such are not organized crime. They are street gangs. There is truly no comparison there.

Crips gangs don't send money up the ladder to anyone above them. They run their section of the city and that's it. Their money is their money. Maybe if Crip gangs from Memphis sent money to Crip management over the entire midwest, and then they shipped it to Chicago (where the gang was 'born') to a type of gang board of directors or something this nation wide Crip movment would have some form of a discussion point. However, this isn't what street gangs are about.

The main thing I was refuting to begin with was some people's belief that one blue flag waving Crip in Indianapolis, will give a damn about another blue flag waving Crip memeber in Memphis. When the truth is that they don't. You should know that better than anyone.

Los Angeles
03-01-2009, 07:38 PM
I suppose I don't understand why they have to be a "national organization" in order to hop in a car and make good on threats of violence to Shawne's family.

Especially if they've already done it and didn't get caught.

Pacersfan46
03-01-2009, 07:45 PM
I suppose I don't understand why they have to be a "national organization" in order to hop in a car and make good on threats of violence to Shawne's family.

Especially if they've already done it and didn't get caught.

Apparently you didn't read the responses I got the first time. For example .....


So your theory is that the entire gang population of Memphis, TN is following Williams around America, first to Indy and now to Dallas?


What, you're going to take on every Crip and Blood in America?

Do you see my point now? My response was exactly the same as yours. I think we agree more than you think, just that you took my comments out of context not understanding what I was replying to exactly.

-- Steve --

speakout4
03-01-2009, 07:53 PM
If you live in LA, then you should know more about what I'm saying than anyone.

2 gangs flying the same blue flag but with different names for their sets on opposite ends of the city couldn't give a damn about each other. The way these gangs are structured doesn't lend itself to a nationwide movement. If 2 gangs running 2 totally different neighborhoods tried to merge it would be chaos. There would be a power struggle beyond belief and it usually won't end well.

The biggest difference isn't Memphis vs LA, or what not. The most obvious difference is that Mexican Mafia is organized crime. Crips/Bloods and such are not organized crime. They are street gangs. There is truly no comparison there.

Crips gangs don't send money up the ladder to anyone above them. They run their section of the city and that's it. Their money is their money. Maybe if Crip gangs from Memphis sent money to Crip management over the entire midwest, and then they shipped it to Chicago (where the gang was 'born') to a type of gang board of directors or something this nation wide Crip movment would have some form of a discussion point. However, this isn't what street gangs are about.

The main thing I was refuting to begin with was some people's belief that one blue flag waving Crip in Indianapolis, will give a damn about another blue flag waving Crip memeber in Memphis. When the truth is that they don't. You should know that better than anyone.
I agree with you. It's not like they are a national party with meetings, dues, and a newsletter. Hell do they even have a knowledge of geography to know there are gang members in buffalo for example. I think not.