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View Full Version : Did anybody hear Harrington in the post game show



Peck
02-24-2009, 12:44 AM
take a shot at either Jermaine O'Neal or Rick Carlisle? You can take it as either of them or both but when asked about his thoughts on the Pacers Al said (paraphrasing here) that they are much improved because they don't just have one player that they throw it down to and everyone else stands around and watches. He then went on to say that O'Briens offense is one he would really enjoy playing in.

It was just a small part of what he said, but I thought that this was a direct shot at O'Neal. Diamond Dave thought it was a shot at Carlisle. We both agreed that it could have been either or both.

Not that it really matters, but I thought it was kind of interesting getting some more thoughts from the players who were here at the time.

duke dynamite
02-24-2009, 12:46 AM
I listened to it. I thought it was geared towards O'Neal.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 12:52 AM
I think it was geared to mention both of them. Al has a tendency to run his mouth before he thinks especially considering the fact that he and JO are buddies off the court. Isn't Al wearing number 7 now because of JO? That's what I figured anyway.

As far as Al wanting to play in O'Brien's system, that pretty much tells you all you need to know about OBie's coaching style.

HC
02-24-2009, 01:05 AM
Al Harrington has this huge ego for some reason, and I don't know why. What a drama queen he has become. I do have to agree with him though, regardless of whether he was taking a shot at Rick, JO, or both. While Carlisle is an excellent x and o coach, his style is so dull, boring, and predictable that I could barely stand to watch the Pacers towards the end of his tenure here. I am so glad he (Rick) is gone.

Anthem
02-24-2009, 01:32 AM
As far as Al wanting to play in O'Brien's system, that pretty much tells you all you need to know about OBie's coaching style.
:laugh: Yeah.

I didn't see tonight's game, but based on history it's hard to take Al seriously on this. The only time he doesn't want everyone standing around and watching one player is if he's not the one player.

He's never been the same since Zeke said those immortal words: "Darvin Ham."

Bball
02-24-2009, 01:45 AM
Al Harrington has this huge ego for some reason, and I don't know why. What a drama queen he has become. I do have to agree with him though, regardless of whether he was taking a shot at Rick, JO, or both. While Carlisle is an excellent x and o coach, his style is so dull, boring, and predictable that I could barely stand to watch the Pacers towards the end of his tenure here. I am so glad he (Rick) is gone.

I have a feeling the real problem to blame for that left after Rick had already departed the Pacers bench.

Maybe it was Carlisle's problem for not finding a different way to utilize that problem that would be successful and keep the problem happy.

I didn't hear Harrington's comments so I have no idea which way his comments were aimed but at this point, does it matter to the greater point?

The all JO all the time offense was no fun for anyone... except JO... apparently.

Now, if it was successful but no fun then I'd just say STFU Al... But it was far from successful, instead it was a giant chemistry killer and an era of the Pacers that I'd mostly just as soon forget. If it wasn't for Reggie that era could be forgotten entirely as far as I'm concerned.

-Bball

flox
02-24-2009, 02:13 AM
Since he only mentions coaching and not players, its a shot at Rick.

Skaut_Ech
02-24-2009, 11:16 AM
:laugh: Yeah.

I didn't see tonight's game, but based on history it's hard to take Al seriously on this. The only time he doesn't want everyone standing around and watching one player is if he's not the one player.

He's never been the same since Zeke said those immortal words: "Darvin Ham."

:grinyes: :buddies: :laugh:

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Screw Al Harryupandgivemetheballton!!

Roaming Gnome
02-24-2009, 11:48 AM
Judging from his behavior after the Golden State game immediately after the trade, It was a shot at Rick...

While Stephen Jackson and the other former Pacers went out of their way to exchange words, handshakes and oddly enough.. a hug with coach Carlisle for some time after the final horn, Al had this smug look at Jackson as if he wouldn't be bothered. At the time, Seth and I were very surprised at this due to Jackson's behavior towards the same man when he was in a Pacer jersey.

I know this isn't any kind of proof of Al's contempt for Rick Carlisle, but that small action told me what I needed to know.

Unclebuck
02-24-2009, 11:53 AM
Yeah it was a shot at Rick - similar to the things he said right after he was trade to G. State

Anthem
02-24-2009, 12:08 PM
He's never been the same since Zeke said those immortal words: "Darvin Ham."
Man, I thought this was insightful but nobody seemed to twig to it. Is it so obvious as to be common and accepted fact, or is it to obscure?

Or is my codependency showing?

count55
02-24-2009, 12:17 PM
Man, I thought this was insightful but nobody seemed to twig to it. Is it so obvious as to be common and accepted fact, or is it to obscure?

Or is my codependency showing?

Over my head, man.

Speed
02-24-2009, 12:24 PM
Al didn't like Carlise, he didn't like Nellie. He liked Zeke. I'm not sure about Bird or Woodson (I think that was his coach in ATL). Too early for D'Antonio, either way.

At some point, maybe it's on Al?

At least it sounds like he doesn't hold a grudge. :)

Putnam
02-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Even if Harrington has opinions one way or another about Carlisle and or Jermaine O'Neal, and even it we know from previous stqtements and actions what he does or did think about them, none of us knows his motivation for making the comment last night. We can, however, see the truth of it.

It is true that they used to "just have one player that they throw it down to and everyone else stands around and watches."

Putnam
02-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Man, I thought this was insightful but nobody seemed to twig to it. Is it so obvious as to be common and accepted fact, or is it to obscure?

Or is my codependency showing?



Maybe everyone has you on IGNORE.

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 01:25 PM
Since he only mentions coaching and not players, its a shot at Rick.

I agree. It takes a lot of imagination to think this is a shot at one of his better friends.

He hated Rick's offense when he left, and he hated it when he came back.

Anthem
02-24-2009, 02:00 PM
Maybe everyone has you on IGNORE.
:laugh: Yeah, that's most likely.

Or does that feature still exist? I tried to put some folks on ignore yesterday but was unable to do so.

Doddage
02-24-2009, 02:20 PM
Or does that feature still exist? I tried to put some folks on ignore yesterday but was unable to do so.
Quick Links drop down, User Control Panel, and you'll see the appropriate link on the left side bar.

Since86
02-24-2009, 02:21 PM
I do have to agree with him though, regardless of whether he was taking a shot at Rick, JO, or both. While Carlisle is an excellent x and o coach, his style is so dull, boring, and predictable that I could barely stand to watch the Pacers towards the end of his tenure here. I am so glad he (Rick) is gone.

It's been pretty well discussed on here about JO's blow up on the offense Rick tried only 9 games into the season.

Rick was in charge of the offense under Bird, and that was anything but dull and boring. I wouldn't even call it predictable either, even though you knew Reggie was going off continuous screens.

His offense is vastly different this year in Dallas than it was here, and when JO was out for extended period of times during the season, Rick made a lot of adjustments to his offense while in Pacer land, as well.

Let's not pretend RC is a one trick pony, and needs a dump it to a post player and run it through them every play. He does have a lot of control in it, but due to the overall style he plays, it works, and has been shown to be very successful with it.

After two seasons I still cannot understand how people are happy he is gone, considering the replacement that was brought in. Ugh.

Los Angeles
02-24-2009, 04:26 PM
I miss Rick Carlisle.

He was a class act and a credit to the organization.

After what he went through here, and the job he did dealing with such turmoil, we should be throwing him a parade, not throwing him to the wolves.

duke dynamite
02-24-2009, 04:27 PM
I miss Rick Carlisle.

He was a class act and a credit to the organization.

After what he went through here, and the job he did dealing with such turmoil, we should be throwing him a parade, not throwing him to the wolves.
I'd love a parade.

Thesterovic
02-24-2009, 04:28 PM
Its the shoes! Its his new shoes, he believe he's MJ!

flox
02-24-2009, 04:29 PM
Really? His style of play obviously didn't work, he lost the team, you have to jet him at that point, and good riddance. Obie's an old school coach with horrible pieces, give him a much better team and he'll make you guys wonder what was he doing here, before you dismiss the fact that "oh he's just a bad coach with good players that make him look good like Doc Rivers".

I honestly don't understand why the board loves Rick. He wasn't that good, he coaches in an unorthodox non-old school way, and can only last a few years.

Since86
02-24-2009, 04:34 PM
JOb too good for the Pacers?

Oh man, I think I'm gonna puke.

Anthem
02-24-2009, 04:40 PM
I honestly don't understand why the board loves Rick. He wasn't that good, he coaches in an unorthodox non-old school way, and can only last a few years.
Rick's unorthodox, but Obie is old-school?

Sure, man. :hippie:

Kid Minneapolis
02-24-2009, 04:44 PM
Who cares what Harrington thinks? Not like he's proven to be anything resembling an authority on advanced winning in the NBA.

Bball
02-24-2009, 04:44 PM
I miss Rick Carlisle.

He was a class act and a credit to the organization.

After what he went through here, and the job he did dealing with such turmoil, we should be throwing him a parade, not throwing him to the wolves.

I'm right there with you.

We threw the baby out with the bathwater... or took a serious misstep in cleaning up the team's problems. ...However you want to look at it.

Carlisle deserved a chance with a team minus the distractions he was forced to deal with.

-Bball

Putnam
02-24-2009, 04:52 PM
JOb too good for the Pacers?

Oh man, I think I'm gonna puke.


O'Brien is not too good for the Pacers. But he is an established NBA coach who was willing to come in here during a tough transition.

A few other NBA coaches wouldn't take the job because they didn't see a championship already lined up. But O'Brien did. He knew what he was getting into, and he took the job. He probably knew, (whatever he said), that he was coming here to sow what he would not reap. That doesn't make him less honorable; it makes him more honorable.

Unless you're the kind of person who looks down on the trash man because he gets dirty cleaning up your garbage for you.


And there ought to be some sort of statute of limitations on Carlisle-bashing. I didn't like him and I'm glad he's gone. But I can't imagine still wanting to waste bandwidth criticizing him today.

Since86
02-24-2009, 05:07 PM
No, I look down on the man because instead of picking up the trash and making the place look better, he's just trying to throw it all under the couch and hide it.

A fast paced offense, that has zero structure, that encourages Jeff Freaking Foster to shoot a 17ft jumpshot is not cleaning up anything.

A horrible defense, that either cannot be effectively coached or effectively executed by the current team is not cleaning up anything.

And to make things worse, his rotations have been nothing short of disgusting during the season. Seriously, he has lineups on the floor where 1-3 is TJ, JJ, and Diener. How you can watch something like that, or atleast read about it, and it not make you want to pull out your hair is astonishing.

Does JOb do some things well? Yes. I bet he is one hell of a chess player, but unfortunately for us, that doesn't translate to the basketball floor.

EDIT: While it's true Stan Van Gundy didn't want to coach this team, we already had a coach who won COTY, and was in the top 3 in voting two other years. He set record wins during his first two seasons in Det. and his first season here. That coach DID want to be here. JOb didn't have any other options out there other than sitting at home like he had been doing, or coach here.

I mean seriously, flox wants to bad mouth RC for losing the team? What team? You mean a team consisting of JO, Ron, Tinsley, Al, and SJax. Thank God he did lose them. I would hate to see a coach that actually has the ability to get along with all of them. I believe that type of coach is talked about in the book of Revelations.

Los Angeles
02-24-2009, 05:18 PM
I'm right there with you.

We threw the baby out with the bathwater... or took a serious misstep in cleaning up the team's problems. ...However you want to look at it.

Carlisle deserved a chance with a team minus the distractions he was forced to deal with.

-Bball

I'm willing to bet that Rick was just as ready to move on as everyone else.

He's currently coaching a winning team of veterans in Dallas. So I don't feel sorry for him at all. I just wish things would have been different here.

In the end, all I really know is this: If I had rick's job during the same time frame, I would have lasted 6 weeks. The man earned his paycheck by never faltering in his professionalism. He was the steady hand that kept this ship from sinking.

For that, I thank him.

avoidingtheclowns
02-24-2009, 05:21 PM
While it's true Stan Van Gundy didn't want to coach this team, we already had a coach who won COTY, and was in the top 3 in voting two other years. He set record wins during his first two seasons in Det. and his first season here. That coach DID want to be here. JOb didn't have any other options out there other than sitting at home like he had been doing, or coach here.

I mean seriously, flox wants to bad mouth RC for losing the team? What team? You mean a team consisting of JO, Ron, Tinsley, Al, and SJax. Thank God he did lose them. I would hate to see a coach that actually has the ability to get along with all of them. I believe that type of coach is talked about in the book of Revelations.

i'm a carlisle fan, but i'm not sure how true this actually is. after the roller coaster he was on during his years here, i can see him wanting to get the hell outta dodge as much as his PD critics did.

Since86
02-24-2009, 05:22 PM
I think Rick was ready to leave a year prior to when he was actually let go, and he was talked into staying by TPTB that he would have more say in personel issues and thus was given the Basketball Operations title or whatever it was.

I think them "firing" him was a measure of good gesture because he was going to walk on his own because they didn't follow through on giving him more power.

Just my personal opinion.

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 05:24 PM
Hell, I liked Rick's x's and o's. I didn't mind the iso-ball. Rick was into percentages, and that was the high percentage play for this team.

I love to hear the JO-bashers defend Rick's reliance on JO as good coaching. Ah, the irony.

Rick's problem is 100% interpersonal. His x's and o's are fine and at each stop, he's shown plenty of versatility. He didn't use the same system in Indy as Detroit, nor in Dallas. Now, once he's in a job or in a season, he can not make adjustments very well, but he does a pretty good job of designing a system around the talent that he starts with. As Dallas will eventually learn (unless he's been willing to get a large amount of counseling/ help), he can be described as an anti-social jerk who treats his players as his subjects and expects them to bow down to his mastery of gameplan, no matter how badly he treats them.

Rick's head coaching career will be limited until he learns to get along with people as well as he gets along with numbers and strategies. Until he communicates impactively (thanks, Jay) he'll always be in the process of wearing out his welcome, no matter how good he does at 'getting the most out of his players' during the first year, before they all hate his guts on a personal level.

That's all the bandwidth he's worth. Good riddance. I would gladly welcome him back as someone's #1 assistant, however. Especially if the HC is someone who is good at motivating players and also willing to let somebody else work on the details of the game plan. I'd love to have Rick as Mike Brown's #1 assistant some day, FWIW.

Since86
02-24-2009, 05:25 PM
i'm a carlisle fan, but i'm not sure how true this actually is. after the roller coaster he was on during his years here, i can see him wanting to get the hell outta dodge as much as his PD critics did.

I guess I should elaborate, especially after my last post.

He wanted to be here enough not to publicly criticize the players or the organization while was here and after. He was a great trooper putting up with the bullcrap he was forced too.

I think if it went the way he wanted, TPTB would have shipped certain players out a long time before it actually happened, and he would still be coaching.

I do agree, he wanted either them to be gone, or he was leaving. Unfortunately both happened.

Since86
02-24-2009, 05:27 PM
He's anti-social, while putting up with players like JO, Ron, Tinsley, Sjax, and Baby Al?

I don't think Jesus himself could get a long with that group of monsters.

Unclebuck
02-24-2009, 05:31 PM
Rick's head coaching career will be limited until he learns to get along with people as well as he gets along with numbers and strategies. Until he communicates impactively (thanks, Jay) he'll always be in the process of wearing out his welcome, no matter how good he does at 'getting the most out of his players' during the first year, before they all hate his guts on a personal level.



OK, I think that is just tooooo much

Los Angeles
02-24-2009, 05:32 PM
Hell, I liked Rick's x's and o's. I didn't mind the iso-ball. Rick was into percentages, and that was the high percentage play for this team.

I love to hear the JO-bashers defend Rick's reliance on JO as good coaching. Ah, the irony.

Rick's problem is 100% interpersonal. His x's and o's are fine and at each stop, he's shown plenty of versatility. He didn't use the same system in Indy as Detroit, nor in Dallas. Now, once he's in a job or in a season, he can not make adjustments very well, but he does a pretty good job of designing a system around the talent that he starts with. As Dallas will eventually learn (unless he's been willing to get a large amount of counseling/ help), he can be described as an anti-social jerk who treats his players as his subjects and expects them to bow down to his mastery of gameplan, no matter how badly he treats them.

Rick's head coaching career will be limited until he learns to get along with people as well as he gets along with numbers and strategies. Until he communicates impactively (thanks, Jay) he'll always be in the process of wearing out his welcome, no matter how good he does at 'getting the most out of his players' during the first year, before they all hate his guts on a personal level.

That's all the bandwidth he's worth. Good riddance. I would gladly welcome him back as someone's #1 assistant, however. Especially if the HC is someone who is good at motivating players and also willing to let somebody else work on the details of the game plan. I'd love to have Rick as Mike Brown's #1 assistant some day, FWIW.

I have yet to hear ONE instance where Rick mistreated his players. The only thing that comes close is bench ing Tinsley, which I hesitate to even mention because all that's going to do is prod you and able into running to the gun rack. ;)

I'm willing to bet that the majority of coaches in the NBA are not "nice" to their players. And if they are, I'll bet they're on losing teams (Celtics and Cavs being noted exceptions).

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 05:35 PM
What about Bill Davidson and the monsters in Detroit? What about Donnie Walsh telling him when he originally passed over him in 2000 that he needed to work on his people skills?

Anti-social isn't the right word.

But his lack of social graces and communication skills were a problem long before he had to deal with the jerks that were on the Pacers roster. Jerks that happened to have gotten along reasonably well with a number of other coaches (Isiah, Nellie, Popovich/ Mike Brown, etc.)

I agree that when you put Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest together that terrible things are going to happen, but JO, Harrington, and Tinsley had few coach-player problems before that terrible expiriment so the blame can't be 100% on thier shoulders.

If you want to assing blame for that disaster, I'd put:

33% on Artest
25% on Jackson
20% on Carlisle
15% on Tinsley
5% on Harrington
2% on JO

EDIT:

Or try this version
33% on Artest
25% on Walsh/ Bird
20% on Jackson
10% on Carlisle
9% on Tinsley
2% on Harrington
1% on JO

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 05:38 PM
I have yet to hear ONE instance where Rick mistreated his players.

They've all complained about the "silent treatment" they would get from him. All of the questions about the roles, gameplan, fairness, and discipline point clearly to a communication void.

The man is inept at communication with his players. He's okay at talking to the press, but you'll note that he never really said anything to the press either. It wasn't "communication" that he was decent at, it was a monologue.

Los Angeles
02-24-2009, 05:38 PM
OK, there a HUGE leap from "needing to work on people skills" to "an anti-social jerk who treats his players as his subjects and expects them to bow down to his mastery of gameplan, no matter how badly he treats them"

One of them is a reasonable assessment, the other nonsense.

Since86
02-24-2009, 05:42 PM
I'm so glad I have to go to work.

RC sharing more blame than Tinsley? The same Tinsley that is now banished from the team?:suicide4:

DisplacedKnick
02-24-2009, 05:44 PM
Carlisle had to go and that was entirely the fault of management. He was dealt a hand that nobody would have been able to play. I don't know how anyone could expect more than what he got out of the team post-brawl and the following season.

By spring, 2007 it was clear he had to go - he was partly scapegoated (by the remaining players anyway) and partly I think it just wore him out - he wasn't nearly as good of a coach the last half of that final season and the only reason I can come up with for that is that he was just plain whipped by what he'd had to put up with.

Doesn't stop him from being an excellent coach - IMO borderline top 5 in the league.

count55
02-24-2009, 05:45 PM
Carlisle had to go and that was entirely the fault of management. He was dealt a hand that nobody would have been able to play. I don't know how anyone could expect more than what he got out of the team post-brawl and the following season.

By spring, 2007 it was clear he had to go - he was partly scapegoated (by the remaining players anyway) and partly I think it just wore him out - he wasn't nearly as good of a coach the last half of that final season and the only reason I can come up with for that is that he was just plain whipped by what he'd had to put up with.

Doesn't stop him from being an excellent coach - IMO borderline top 5 in the league.

This is more or less where I'm at.

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 05:47 PM
OK, there a HUGE leap from "needing to work on people skills" to "an anti-social jerk who treats his players as his subjects and expects them to bow down to his mastery of gameplan, no matter how badly he treats them"

One of them is a reasonable assessment, the other nonsense.

Okay, take out the word anti-social. And replace "badly he treats them" with "rarely he communicates with them."

Then it can stand just fine on its own.

He's the stereotype authoritarian when it comes to dealing with players, but in effort to soften that he would play favorites when it came to discipline.

Its not hard to see how this was a disaster in the making with any team, let alone a team of Artest, Jackson, Harrington, etc.

ChicagoJ
02-24-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm so glad I have to go to work.

RC sharing more blame than Tinsley? The same Tinsley that is now banished from the team?:suicide4:

The same Tinsley who needed a change of address/ scenery long before he was banished from the team. Tinsley was clearly "Walsh's guy" that both Bird and Carlisle did not want.

I excluded the mastermind behind the disaster - the two headed monster of Walsh/ Bird in the original list. The revised list puts them pretty much at parity. Hopefully that makes you feel better.

Naptown_Seth
02-24-2009, 06:06 PM
I think it was geared to mention both of them. Al has a tendency to run his mouth before he thinks especially considering the fact that he and JO are buddies off the court. Isn't Al wearing number 7 now because of JO? That's what I figured anyway.

As far as Al wanting to play in O'Brien's system, that pretty much tells you all you need to know about OBie's coaching style.
Exactly. I mean the irony on this one is incredible. It's an overdose of irony. "Black hole" himself has issues with offenses geared toward dumping it into the post. Oh brother.

And he'd like to play in a freewheeling uptempo system....guess he shouldn't have wasted his chances in Golden State then.

Dude is chucking it up left and right for the Knicks and still has a crap attitude on the court. Whatever we thought he was those first few years when he was under Tony's wing, that's long gone.


ps - shot at Carlisle who he hated. He wanted out the first time because he was stuck being the 6th man and didn't want to play for Rick, and then he turned around and got Rick so PO'd that Rick actually benched him, pretty rare for Mr. Moderation.


Jay - I'm dying to see that list of players that didn't like Rick, or who were "wronged" by Rick that went on to prove him wrong? He loved Jack and stuck with him despite the fights, so he's not on that list.

But AJ, Saras, Al, Fred...these are not guys that are proving Rick wrong in the PT he gave them or how he tried to use them. Frankly I think you and some of the other Rick bashers are bordering on pushing for the nuts to run the asylum.

Rick was dry, plain, dull perhaps. Authoritarian? Hardly. JOB is way more into control and authority. He is vocal and tempermental and not exactly afraid to speak his mind even to the press when it comes to critiquing his players.


A) the team didn't get better without JO

B) Rick played who he had. When he had only guards he had them put up the MOST 3PT ATTEMPTS EVER by a Pacers team, only to be broken by "shoot 'em if you got 'em" JOB. Rick to me has always been an X's and O's plan to max your roster type and when JO was the top option he tried to make that work. Why not?

billbradley
02-24-2009, 06:26 PM
I liked Rick and I am content with JOB for now without getting into to much detail there. But with playing the blame game and %'s, does anyone remember on TNT when Reggie said his biggest regret was not talking to JO and Artest about getting on the same page. Reggie added they could have had something really special. I think it was an ego thing, maybe? I don't know if I have it exactly right but I'm pretty sure that was the gist of what he said. If that is true, what part is Reggie's fault if any as the leader at the time, and why would it not be Rick's job to get the all stars aligned like other good coaches do? That being said I think Rick did a terrific job with what he had. I still have hope that JOB can be successful next season especially when I see other players healthy (mainly quis) his defense seems to work. Once Hibbert can stay on the floor and block with his hands and not his body while being a stable offensive option we might stop rehashing the past, arguing mundane Murphy rebounds and exchanging unpleasantness and back to enjoying victories.

BlueNGold
02-24-2009, 08:00 PM
As far as Al wanting to play in O'Brien's system, that pretty much tells you all you need to know about OBie's coaching style.

Post of the JOb era.

BlueNGold
02-24-2009, 08:07 PM
He's never been the same since Zeke said those immortal words: "Darvin Ham."

...yeh, Al needs to take some notes on Darvin's game...:laugh:

History has shown that Zeke was actually right on that one.

Peck
02-24-2009, 10:43 PM
What about Bill Davidson and the monsters in Detroit? What about Donnie Walsh telling him when he originally passed over him in 2000 that he needed to work on his people skills?

Anti-social isn't the right word.

But his lack of social graces and communication skills were a problem long before he had to deal with the jerks that were on the Pacers roster. Jerks that happened to have gotten along reasonably well with a number of other coaches (Isiah, Nellie, Popovich/ Mike Brown, etc.)

I agree that when you put Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest together that terrible things are going to happen, but JO, Harrington, and Tinsley had few coach-player problems before that terrible expiriment so the blame can't be 100% on thier shoulders.

If you want to assing blame for that disaster, I'd put:

33% on Artest
25% on Jackson
20% on Carlisle
15% on Tinsley
5% on Harrington
2% on JO

EDIT:

Or try this version
33% on Artest
25% on Walsh/ Bird
20% on Jackson
10% on Carlisle
9% on Tinsley
2% on Harrington
1% on JO

Right, J.O. at 1%. Add two zero's on the back of that and move him to the top of the list then you might be closer to the truth.

Ok, to be fair he was not 100% at fault but 1%?

Also I am not sure you can put Ron above Donnie in this list either. Sure Ron may have been an idiot, but he knew he was an idiot and so did everybody else. The fact that Walsh kept him around is on him and nobody else.

Actually I want to thank you though. Looking at your list has taken a lot of the sting out of this season. We may be miserable on the floor at times and I can't say I love our coaching, but at the very least I don't hate anybody on this team and looking at your list I am litterally straining to find anyone I even can tolerate.

I mean I don't hate Carlisle but I hated the way he coached the team when J.O. was the G.M.

Other than that there is not one single player you have listed that I would stop to p!ss on if they were on fire.

D-BONE
02-24-2009, 10:49 PM
:grinyes: :buddies: :laugh:

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Screw Al Harryupandgivemetheballton!!

Amen! Baby Al can stick it up his arse! He's never amounted to anything in the league other than a guy who likes to have his number called constantly. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. He'd have loved to be the black hole his buddy JO was. He can score points, but how about grabbing a rebound for a 6-8 220 guy, or playing D, or buying into the team concept on a winning team, etc.

Anthem
02-24-2009, 10:55 PM
I would gladly welcome him back as someone's #1 assistant, however. Especially if the HC is someone who is good at motivating players and also willing to let somebody else work on the details of the game plan. I'd love to have Rick as Mike Brown's #1 assistant some day, FWIW.
Or vice versa. His in-game management was fine... if he had a really good assistant (like, say, Mike Brown) he'd be fine.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Or vice versa. His in-game management was fine... if he had a really good assistant (like, say, Mike Brown) he'd be fine.

I see your point, but I'd still want to go the other way.

When management brings in Rick to be the head coach, they are giving the proverbial middle finger to the players. Got a problem and want to talk about it? Take a number and wait in line, he'll get back to you in a couple of years. He's great in a one-year turnaround situation, but after that he's a trainwreck.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 12:22 AM
Right, J.O. at 1%. Add two zero's on the back of that and move him to the top of the list then you might be closer to the truth.

Ok, to be fair he was not 100% at fault but 1%?

That scale is only useful on a relative basis. There's plenty of blame to spread around.

But relative to those other six, I'd say that every one of them contributed substantially more to the unprecedented dysfunction known as the mid-2000's Pacers than JO.


Also I am not sure you can put Ron above Donnie in this list either. Sure Ron may have been an idiot, but he knew he was an idiot and so did everybody else. The fact that Walsh kept him around is on him and nobody else.

Well, somehow Ron had everybody convinced he was a misunderstood martyr. He figured out how to manipulate enough gullible fans (sorry, PD) with nicely played sympathetic lies to get them into his corner that it made it difficult for management to be objective and do the right thing.


Actually I want to thank you though. Looking at your list has taken a lot of the sting out of this season. We may be miserable on the floor at times and I can't say I love our coaching, but at the very least I don't hate anybody on this team and looking at your list I am litterally straining to find anyone I even can tolerate.

As time slowly heals these wounds, I realize just how much I have hated the 2002-2007 Indiana Pacers. Even the players I tried to like and defend because they weren't as evil as Artest and Jackson are pretty damn hard to like.

I don't dislike this team, (even if I think TJ Ford is massively overrated) but I still have a hard time getting emotionally attached to them. Granger, Dunleavy, Hibbert, Rush - these should be players I really like but I'm not really there yet.

jeffg-body
02-25-2009, 01:16 AM
To me it was a little jab at both Carlisle and JO.

flox
02-25-2009, 02:40 AM
I don't see how anyone has Rick as a borderline top 5. He's not even top 10 material.

DisplacedKnick
02-25-2009, 09:00 AM
I don't see how anyone has Rick as a borderline top 5. He's not even top 10 material.

And in the "Simplest Task on the Planet" category:

2000-2001 Detroit Pistons - Coach, George Irvine. Record - 30-52
2001-2002 Detroit Pistons - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 50-32

2002-2003 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Isiah Thomas. Record - 48-34
2003-2004 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 61-21

McKeyFan
02-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Wow. Isiah fired for a 48-34 record?

I'd take that about now.

count55
02-25-2009, 10:32 AM
Wow. Isiah fired for a 48-34 record?

I'd take that about now.

Of course, that team started 13-2 and ran their record out to 33-14 before staggering home at 15-20 to get that record. They followed up that late season swoon by getting ***** slapped by the lower-seeded Celtics in six, losing the three road games in that series by 19, 10, and 20.

That Celtic team was coached by Jim O'Brien.

Granville
02-25-2009, 10:43 AM
And in the "Simplest Task on the Planet" category:

2000-2001 Detroit Pistons - Coach, George Irvine. Record - 30-52
2001-2002 Detroit Pistons - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 50-32

2002-2003 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Isiah Thomas. Record - 48-34
2003-2004 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 61-21


The thing that shocks me the most here is that George Irvine coached the Pistons in this decade.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 11:22 AM
And in the "Simplest Task on the Planet" category:

2000-2001 Detroit Pistons - Coach, George Irvine. Record - 30-52
2001-2002 Detroit Pistons - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 50-32

2002-2003 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Isiah Thomas. Record - 48-34
2003-2004 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 61-21

I will heartily agree that Rick is one of the best ever one-year turnaround guys.

Its years 2, 3, and 4 that he'll do more damage than good.

The Pistons were smart enough (or lucky enough) to stop it at year #2 before it became a trainwreck.

McKeyFan
02-25-2009, 11:37 AM
As much as I like Rick, I think I prefer Obie to the personality-controlled Pacers in Rick's day.

Although I tend to agree with BBall that JO may have been the source of much of the trouble.

flox
02-25-2009, 12:15 PM
And in the "Simplest Task on the Planet" category:

2000-2001 Detroit Pistons - Coach, George Irvine. Record - 30-52
2001-2002 Detroit Pistons - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 50-32

2002-2003 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Isiah Thomas. Record - 48-34
2003-2004 Indiana Pacers - Coach, Rick Carlisle. Record - 61-21

Past results are not an indicator of future performance.

See: Larry Brown, Knicks

Sollozzo
02-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Its years 2, 3, and 4 that he'll do more damage than good.



How can you accurately say that? His results in year 2 in Detroit were better than in year one (ECF as opposed to semis exit). They lost to the Nets who were in the finals the previous years. Dumars then saw that Brown was on the market and thought he was a better coach than Carlisle. But Brown's 04 team had one superior advantage to Rick's 03 team....RASHEED WALALCE. Do the 04 Pistons get by the Nets (who took them to 7 games that year) and us if there's no Sheed? Most likely not.

And it's also completely unfair to use our situation as a basis for that statement as well. In year 2 we had the brawl that damaged the franchise for years. Combine that with the injuries we had that year and you're left with one horrible situation as a coach. But the team still managed to actually win a playoff series and took the defending champs to 6 games.

The brawl was obviously felt in years 3 and 4 as Ron was traded for Peja who then left, meaning that there was a significant loss of talent on the team.

Who did more damage than good in Carlisle's years 2-4 here, the players or Carlisle himself?

The answer is obvious, imo.

flox
02-25-2009, 02:44 PM
How can you accurately say that? His results in year 2 in Detroit were better than in year one (ECF as opposed to semis exit). They lost to the Nets who were in the finals the previous years. Dumars then saw that Brown was on the market and thought he was a better coach than Carlisle. But Brown's 04 team had one superior advantage to Rick's 03 team....RASHEED WALALCE. Do the 04 Pistons get by the Nets (who took them to 7 games that year) and us if there's no Sheed? Most likely not.

And it's also completely unfair to use our situation as a basis for that statement as well. In year 2 we had the brawl that damaged the franchise for years. Combine that with the injuries we had that year and you're left with one horrible situation as a coach. But the team still managed to actually win a playoff series and took the defending champs to 6 games.

The brawl was obviously felt in years 3 and 4 as Ron was traded for Peja who then left, meaning that there was a significant loss of talent on the team.

Who did more damage than good in Carlisle's years 2-4 here, the players or Carlisle himself?

The answer is obvious, imo.

Rick of course. :devil:

He always gets you close but no cigar.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 02:53 PM
Jackson and Artest weren't coachable - at least not during their time here. I'll give you that.

With Tinsley, Harrington, and O'Neal the problem seemed much more personal and specific to Rick.

The answer is not obvious.

At best, its a chicken-and-egg question of which came first - the players rebellion against authority - including Rick, or Rick pissing them off so that they became rebellious.

Clearly a vicious cycle. That's the only part that is obvious. They all get blame, not just the players. I've never said the players don't get blame - I've said the NBA is a players' league so when this happens the coach is the one to take the blame and go away.

Did anybody ever buy a Pacers ticket to watch Rick Carlisle coach? No - you bought the ticket to watch the players play.

Unclebuck
02-25-2009, 03:07 PM
Isiah lost the team plain and simple - that is why he deserved to be fired with a 48-34 record - also don't forget he coached IMO the most talented NBA Pacers team.

Since86
02-25-2009, 03:10 PM
At best, its a chicken-and-egg question of which came first - the players rebellion against authority - including Rick, or Rick pissing them off so that they became rebellious.

If they only had problems with Rick, then you have a point, but clearly their problems weren't isolated with him.

-Jamaal was clearly uncoachable by Rick and by JOb. (And the police for that matter)
-Harrington couldn't find time in GS so obviously Nellie couldn't coach him either. (and it's not like his time in ATL was all that successful.)
-JO's style of play earned him a trade half way through his first season in Tor.

Like Seth keeps saying, every single player, outside of SJax, goes down after they get away from Rick. Whether it be the above mentioned players, or add in some like Freddie J.

These guys get booted from their teams when it's just them, yet Rick made it work for multiple seasons with all of them together, and he's the cause of their problems?

Unclebuck
02-25-2009, 03:16 PM
I think Rick's greatest strength as coach was his ability to put players in position to succeed. Maybe he doesn't broaden players games, nor does he ask players to do things they aren't capable of doing and therefore you could say some players growth is curtailed.

DisplacedKnick
02-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Past results are not an indicator of future performance.

See: Larry Brown, Knicks

Huh? How else you going to evaluate someone? Time travel?

Or maybe you've just been having mystical visions sent to you by little green people from the future.

DisplacedKnick
02-25-2009, 03:36 PM
I will heartily agree that Rick is one of the best ever one-year turnaround guys.

Its years 2, 3, and 4 that he'll do more damage than good.

The Pistons were smart enough (or lucky enough) to stop it at year #2 before it became a trainwreck.

Unless you're blaming Rick for the brawl there's no basis for that statement. The Pistons were better in year 2 than year 1 and the Pacers sure looked impressive before Artest and Jackson decided to interact with Detroit fans.

count55
02-25-2009, 03:39 PM
Huh? How else you going to evaluate someone? Time travel?

Or maybe you've just been having mystical visions sent to you by little green people from the future.

That's usually how I do it (though they tend to lie a lot.)

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 04:53 PM
Will it actually make you feel better if I change the statement to say, Rick's great in years #1 and year #2, but years #3 and #4 are so bad that you regret the temporary good feelings you had in the first two years?

The point is, no matter how good he is at first - and he is good when he first arrives, he wears out his welcome and alienates players so fast that Larry Brown is jealous.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 05:03 PM
-Jamaal was clearly uncoachable by Rick and by JOb. (And the police for that matter)
-Harrington couldn't find time in GS so obviously Nellie couldn't coach him either. (and it's not like his time in ATL was all that successful.)
-JO's style of play earned him a trade half way through his first season in Tor.

I'm not sure JOB is relevant. The players were "poisoned" beyond repair. That's why the cancer analogy with Artest was such a good fit. Chemo didn't work, so they tried surgery to remove it. And then later found that it had spread to all the other organs. We can reach a verdict on Tinsley and JO when they get settled into their new teams. As far as I can tell, JO is only guilty of being an injury-shelled version of what he used to be when he got the huge contract.

Including Rick's ability to communicate to players (and when necessary, discipline players) with fairness.

Slick Pinkham
02-25-2009, 05:06 PM
He seems to fall apart as a coach in year three only when his players are involved in a major brawl.

My problem with Rick is that he was so into playing the veterans, was rigid with minutes, conserative, and predictable. Just the wrong fit for a rebuilding job, and Ron/Jax/Tins/JO saw to it that rebuilding was essential, for air quality reasons.

Hoop
02-25-2009, 05:18 PM
I'd take Rick Carlisle over JOB anytime. Carlisle could get 5 random guys out of the stands to play better defense than JOB. JOB has been dealt a much better hand than Rick's final 2 seasons and has massively failed.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 05:27 PM
I will heartily agree that Rick is one of the best ever one-year turnaround guys.

Its years 2, 3, and 4 that he'll do more damage than good.

The Pistons were smart enough (or lucky enough) to stop it at year #2 before it became a trainwreck.
Yes, thank god they stopped it after he went from round 2 to the ECF. God knows where that was headed.

BTW, you go from a Stackhouse team to a Rip/Billups team when people weren't buying jack on Billups at the time. In effect he repeated his success with some fairly significant changes in Detroit.

You then go to a Pacers team that SWAPPED BRAD MILLER FOR SCOT POLLARD and he still wins 13 more games AND he makes Ron Artest an all-star. You know, because he couldn't control players and all. Still waiting on Tinsley to make his point that Rick hurt his game by holding him back that first year. I saw him unrestrained vs PHX...no thanks.


Also I'm waiting to have it shown to me that Rick was blowing it post-GS trade. Has the team made any significant improvement in the W-L dept since dumping Rick for JOB?


Rick has been placed in direct comparison with both players and other coaches and it's yet to be shown that players are better without him or that teams win more without him. But it has been shown that Rick does benefit players (again, Ron, AJ, Fred who tripled his PT when Rick came on board) and does win a lot more games with similar or weaker rosters.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 05:43 PM
BTW, Dallas after Jason Kidd joined the team
16-13 (.551) they were 35-18 (.660)
So Kidd ruins that team (IMO) and they 4 games to 1 to New Orleans and get their coach fired. Thanks Jason.

Rick this year with that same basic roster - 33-23 (.589).
So better than with Avery, another COY winner no less. And he's got them shooting MORE 3s than last year because, again, he's all about the dump it into the post crap.


Has there been a guy with a better resume that's been slagged on more? Dude has ONE losing season. ONE. You didn't see Utah fire Jerry Sloan after one losing season. You didn't see Utah dumping Sloan because AK47 was unhappy.

Even when Brown made Detroit "better" he wasn't winning any more games than Rick had, and he was gift wrapped a free all-star addition no less. He beat Rick in the playoffs, but they wouldn't have had to play the Pacers, let alone without home court, if Detroit hadn't let Rick go to Indy in the first place. They created their own rival and obstacle by dumping him and got damn lucky not to get burned by it.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 06:59 PM
I don't mind Rick's x's and o's and game plan. Yes, he puts players in a position to succeed. Its the interpersonal stuff that kills him.

Los Angeles
02-25-2009, 07:00 PM
How many teams has Rick head coached to years 3 & 4?

What happened - other than coaching - during those years?

That's not much of a sample to make such disparaging generalizations.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 07:05 PM
Detroit didn't want him for year #3 because of interpersonal issues.

Donnie Walsh got rid of him as an assistant after year #3 because of interpersonal issues.

He's brilliant enough to make things better for a short period of time, until his lack of communication skills tear it all apart.

He is what happens when you mix a brilliant scientiest with the people skills of an actuary (apologies to all the actuaries out there, but I did work at an insurance company for a few years...)

Anthem
02-25-2009, 07:18 PM
(apologies to all the actuaries out there, but I did work at an insurance company for a few years...)
You should apologize. An actuary is just a CPA without the sense of humor.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2009, 07:28 PM
You should apologize. An actuary is just a CPA without the sense of humor.

Yeah, I love that joke. :D

What do actuaries do to liven up thier holiday party?

Invite an accountant.

Anthem
02-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Yeah, I love that joke. :D

What do actuaries do to liven up thier holiday party?

Invite an accountant.
:laugh: Oh, that's brutal. I'm going to enjoy passing that one on.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 02:01 AM
I don't mind Rick's x's and o's and game plan. Yes, he puts players in a position to succeed. Its the interpersonal stuff that kills him.
Well I an admit that. I don't think he's harsh or hard on players at all though. Quite the opposite, I think his low key, cold fish approach is the issue.

This is why you keep a side kick assistant that's great with players like Mike Brown was. And regardless, Rick's resume in the most important category - W/L - is strong.

After all, JO loved Isiah so maybe players liking their coach isn't all it's cracked up to be. If I'm GM I tell them to get over it, it's a job, and he's helping them do their job well which means more money in their pocket.

Or option B, have your play time friend coach you and give you the warm squigglies inside as you enjoy a 35 win season and watch your contract value and enjoyment of the sport plummet.


Seriously, JOB "lets them play" and things are better than ever. Fine, I'll bite. Who here thinks that lately Granger wasn't showing the cracks of losing-induced frustration?

Not only that, JOB didn't make it to years 3 and 4 in Philly, he didn't even make it to year 2. It's not like his resume is full of long-term love-fests. Yet here he is instead of Rick.

How many players on the current roster would have been playing their 3rd season with Rick?
Ford, Jack, Diener - nope
Rush, Graham - nope
Baston - nope
Rasho, Hibbert - nope

Troy and Dun would just be technically going into the 2nd half of their 2nd season and then the first half of their 3rd under Rick. I mean you got Granger, Quis and Foster basically as the 3 guys not fairly new to Rick.

So if you moved him because guys were burned out on him I ask you this - which guys? The answer had been Tinsley, but dumping a coach in favor of Tinsley looks pretty f'n stupid right now.

Had Granger, Quis and Foster really hit that wall with Rick that they couldn't take anymore? Given the fact that players are saying that the mood is a lot better than LAST YEAR, where JOB was coaching, I'd say the issue is what many of us suspected - players.


By your own admisssion Jay, Rick is good with guys the first few years. So let him coach TJ, Jack, Diener, Graham, Rush, Baston and Rasho for 2 years. Let him have more than 3 months with Dun and Troy. His track record says that his Xs and Os would have taken all their games to a high level and exceeded expectations.

Bball
02-26-2009, 03:51 AM
I agree with Naptown! :woot:

-Bball

special ed
02-26-2009, 08:52 AM
Anybody hear Don Nelson on the Dan Patrick Show yesterday? When Dan asked him "Who's the player you expected more out of who really didn't...?" Nellie came up with Al Harrington because Al couldn't buy into the team concept. Of course I'm paraphasing.
Not surprising for those of us who've become familiar with Al's game over the years.

flox
02-26-2009, 11:56 AM
By your own admisssion Jay, Rick is good with guys the first few years. So let him coach TJ, Jack, Diener, Graham, Rush, Baston and Rasho for 2 years. Let him have more than 3 months with Dun and Troy. His track record says that his Xs and Os would have taken all their games to a high level and exceeded expectations.

Haha are you kidding? Rick would have ruined Murphleavy. Look at what he's doing down in Dallas. The amount of control he commands would have been the worse thing possible for Dunleavy. Look how much both of them struggled under Rick. Murphleavy needs a player's coach to succeed.

And your post is exactly why I would never trust you to be a GM. The coach is not important as the players themselves. This is a players league and you find the coach that the team will play the hardest for. JOB managed to return an AI lead squad without snow into the playoffs. JOB salvaged the Pitino mess into a playoff squad. JOB managed to turn Dunleavy into a candidate for MIP.

In this league there are two ways to win. You either get a roster full of players that the coach loves and fits the system (Pop, Larry Brown, Sloan, Riles), or you get a coach that players love (Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, Nate McMillian), and will be willing to play their hearts out for the coach. This tough love attitude is exactly the folly of many GMs who cannot go to the extremes that Pop, Larry Brown, and Sloan are afforded.

For all the love that Rick gets, he's doing HORRIBLE in Dallas. Lets look at the following:

Point differential hasn't been this bad since Nellie was coaching.
Defense hasn't been this bad since Nellie was coaching.
This is the lowest PD they've had since they were competitive.
They have played a more inside oriented game.
They are in danger of missing the playoffs
For all the praise you have heaped on Avery, not only does he not have a job now, but his players tuned him out after 3 seasons.
Rick is doing this with a career year from Terry, who is production way above his head. He has cooled considerably.

Since86
02-26-2009, 02:22 PM
They're currently in the playoffs, and two games out of 4th place. That's HORRIBLE?

I guess JOb is a real barn burner for you then.

flox
02-26-2009, 03:10 PM
He's extremely underachieved with a Mavericks squad that should be much better. They lost to a tim duncan/manu-less Spurs team huge. The team has had a large regression and their win margin has been atrocious.

In fact recently he was ordered to give J-Kidd more control over the team, which resulted in a win streak and significant improvement. They say he manages the game too much.

As a lurker and poster on a Mavs board, I can tell you they don't like him too much.

Fun fact: At times Rick played an even smaller lineup than we did this year: He played Jose Berea, J-Kidd, and Jason Terry.

1984
02-27-2009, 07:58 PM
I listened to it. I thought it was geared towards O'Neal.

Why? Did O'Neal create the system and/or force the Pacers to establish their former strategy by making unreasonable demands? No, J.O. was just the player that the Pacers chose to build the system around. Al's comments were geared toward a one-sided system that was a complete failure. I suppose (if you have watched one to many episodes of Desperate Housewives) you might be able to inject the situation with drama and assume they were directed at former coaches. However, I am happy to assume his comments were geared toward a failed system.

Bball
02-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Why? Did O'Neal create the system and/or force the Pacers to establish their former strategy by making unreasonable demands?

Yes, that about sums it up.

PacersRule
02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
Al Harrington has this huge ego for some reason, and I don't know why. What a drama queen he has become.

Speaking of ego, last night during the Cavs vs. Rockets on TNT, they interviewed Artest on his thoughts about how to defend LBJ. I can't remember what he said exactly, but it was something like: "I'm playing at 160, 165 lbs right now...it's going to be tough, he's a great player...on the other hand, he has to guard me too...I see him as a more improved version of Ron Artest."

Reggie Miller just laughed at his comment. He said when he was still teammates with Artest, he really thought he was the league's best player!