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View Full Version : Pacers vs. Knicks Post-Game: Speedbag and Baby Al torch Pacers for 68



Shade
02-23-2009, 11:12 PM
The refs suck.
Foster sucks.
Our defense sucks.

Did I miss anything?

:mad:

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:13 PM
The refs suck.
Foster sucks.
Our defense sucks.

Did I miss anything?

:mad:
JOB sucks.

BillS
02-23-2009, 11:13 PM
The refs suck.
Foster sucks.
Our defense sucks.

Did I miss anything?

:mad:

That we're clearly a better team without Danny and Dunleavy on the floor? :zip:

Thesterovic
02-23-2009, 11:14 PM
Um.. lets see...

JOB SUCKS.
Nate flops.
Nate flops more.
And J-Squared rules.

bnd45
02-23-2009, 11:15 PM
Good thing we turned down those two teams that wanted Jeff Foster.

Nate Robinson scored the most points by a Knick this season.

BPump33
02-23-2009, 11:15 PM
I have NO IDEA why Foster was out there at the end of the game. He was absolutely terrible tonight. I appreciate everything he has ever done for this franchise, but we should have moved on. He's just not the same Foster anymore. We have McBob who can be our new energy/glue guy if given the chance.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:15 PM
The refs suck.
Foster sucks.
Our defense sucks.

Did I miss anything?

:mad:

Foster "really" sucked
Jack rocked
Marquis rocked

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 11:16 PM
The guys played a heck of a game tonight. Unfortunately, we made too many mistakes late. Outside of that, we let them run with the ball a little too much, and that could be a product of Robinson and D'Antoni.

Jack and Quis were stellar. If we won, they would've received the Game Ball.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:16 PM
That we're clearly a better team without Danny and Dunleavy on the floor? :zip:

Danny I'm not so sure, but Dunleavy...yeah

owl
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
The Pacers are who we thought they are.....ie not a very good team. I am not disappointed with this loss as they put up a good fight.

Poor interior defense and rebounding.

Shade
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
I'm really sick of the "I'm just gonna throw myself into the paint every time down because the refs are just gonna bail me out with a foul call anyway" officiating.

I'm also sick of Foster being in at the end of games where he serves no freaking purpose at all.

Kuq_e_Zi91
02-23-2009, 11:19 PM
Someone please clarify this for me - If we hadn't extended Foster would we be able to keep Jack and Marquis this summer with no problem?

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:19 PM
I have NO IDEA why Foster was out there at the end of the game. He was absolutely terrible tonight. I appreciate everything he has ever done for this franchise, but we should have moved on. He's just not the same Foster anymore. We have McBob who can be our new energy/glue guy if given the chance.

Compared to Rasho, Baston, or McBob, I prefer Foster to finish games, but his foul on Lee and his turnover at the end made me want to throw up...

Shade
02-23-2009, 11:19 PM
JOB sucks.

Well, that's a given.

Pacers13Colts12
02-23-2009, 11:19 PM
It's a road game...were you guys expecting different.

jhondog28
02-23-2009, 11:20 PM
Danny I'm not so sure, but Dunleavy...yeah

i hope you are being sarcastic

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-23-2009, 11:22 PM
The end of that game made me want to vomit.

plutarch
02-23-2009, 11:22 PM
just when i thought there was hope for a win they lose
i am personally tired of all the win a couple lose a couple series
there needs to be major changes in the offseason starting with the coach
that last play was pathetic foster threw it to nate, come on man

BPump33
02-23-2009, 11:23 PM
i hope you are being sarcastic

This is a very "What have you done for me lately" board...myself included. I think a lot of us have forgotten what a healthy Dun brought us last year. I think it's a tough call between Quis and Dun, however their contract situations force us to keep Dun.

D-BONE
02-23-2009, 11:23 PM
Rush had a really nice second half. Most confidence he's displayed in some time.

Too many turnovers generally.

Loved the effort, but hated the massive choke job in the last minute.

It has nothing to do with the throwaway at the end, but I just don't know if Foster is/will be worth the extension. I forsee injuries cropping up and generally diminishing returns.

Einstein
02-23-2009, 11:24 PM
I don't want to get on JOB, but why was Foster throwing it in? Quis always throws it in. I don't know why we'd go with Foster for the big throw in when its ALWAYS Quis.

avoidingtheclowns
02-23-2009, 11:24 PM
i hope you are being sarcastic

take a look at the game thread. there are a number of people that believe apart from 3pt shooting (and i believe someone else conceded weak-side defensive help/blocking) marquis is superior to granger at every other facet of the game. it's a hoot.

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:24 PM
Someone please clarify this for me - If we hadn't extended Foster would we be able to keep Jack and Marquis this summer with no problem?

Yes.

Thesterovic
02-23-2009, 11:24 PM
The Pacers are who we thought they are.....ie not a very good team. I am not disappointed with this loss as they put up a good fight.

Poor interior defense and rebounding.


What?

I do not know what you speak of. Rush and Hibbert play like sophomores and their fantastic, Granger is himself, Dun, Murph, and Foster serve a great purpose on our team, Diener is the best, and we have J-squared who is absolutely great.

56 rebounds. Poor rebounding and interior defense. Its called bad refs.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Over these past few games, I began wondering, why in the world would we not want to keep Marquis? He was awesome tonight! He defends well and is able to put up points. Bird should try his best to trade Dunleavy for a inside defender/rebounder so Marquis and Rush can have the wings.

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:25 PM
take a look at the game thread. there are a number of people that believe apart from 3pt shooting (and i believe someone else conceded weak-side defensive help/blocking) marquis is superior to granger at every other facet of the game. it's a hoot.

He is.

jhondog28
02-23-2009, 11:26 PM
This is a very "What have you done for me lately" board...myself included. I think a lot of us have forgotten what a healthy Dun brought us last year. I think it's a tough call between Quis and Dun, however their contract situations force us to keep Dun.

If Dun was on the team he would have inbounded the ball. There end of debate. Agreed that Quis has brought a lot to the team but an injured Dun also provided 15 pts on average. I just have noticed that yes this is a "what have you done for me lately board" but come on. Dun makes this team better. Obviously the defense was not oustanding they gave up 120 something points.

BPump33
02-23-2009, 11:30 PM
If Dun was on the team he would have inbounded the ball. There end of debate.


I absolutely agree with this statement. My favorite part of Dun's game is his passing/basketball IQ, but that seemed to be lacking this season. I'm guessing that's do to not being in basketball shape and always being in catch-up mode. I prefer a healthy Dun over Marquis, but games like tonight make it a very hard decision. I love the defense Quis plays, but I hope that BRush can step in and be that guy for us.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:32 PM
Rush had a really nice second half. Most confidence he's displayed in some time.



I really liked his play tonight, he did a good job at staying with Robinson, but that guy was just unstoppable. As Harrington said, "he's playing like he's seven foot." One thing I don't get is why he doesn't dunk! It's just frustrating to see him miss those layups, even worse than watching Foster's airball jumpshot in the first.

AesopRockOn
02-23-2009, 11:32 PM
At least he's playing Rush. Some of the calls were rough on both sides, but the Knicks shooting upwards of 30 free throws in the final quarter is pretty ridiculous.

The pass by Foster was infantile. It would be an excuse to say that he is hurting but there's got to be something wrong when your best play of the night is for Will-Ferrell-fist-bumping-KryptoNate-one-man-fast-break. I'm dissappointed. Diener...should have been in there.

Rush is still much more comfortable in the twenty foot range than either behind the arc or at the line. His form is much more stable and compact. Don't the Pacers have shooting coaches?

Jack was phenomenal; without his tenacity and strong finishings, we would have been killed. Daniels always thrives when healthy against a team with no inside presence and tonight was no exception. Still can't believe we could not get a pick for the dude.

And like Breen and a very laid-back Clyde said, we were without Danny, TJ, and Dun (who isn't really out but whatever). There are not many teams we should beat with the lineups the JOB can conjure currently. With Hibbert looking like Chris Brown out there, it's tough to keep the opponent's free throw attempts down. He should probably give McRoberts some time. Though he really shouldn't.

Overall, a terrible game to watch, especially the way it ended. I'm upset that I watched it but not that upset that we lost. For Xenu's sake, we have maybe one collective starting caliber player in our starting lineup. At least they are playing hard and staying somewhat competitive. That's all we can ask as we plunge towards the bowels of the league. Again, an awful game to have watched.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:33 PM
take a look at the game thread. there are a number of people that believe apart from 3pt shooting (and i believe someone else conceded weak-side defensive help/blocking) marquis is superior to granger at every other facet of the game. it's a hoot.

But Granger does get guarded more heavily.

Einstein
02-23-2009, 11:36 PM
As well as Daniels played, he looked gassed to me in the 4th. Who knows how that game goes in the last 5 -10 minutes if he's feeling better? Also, Jack was just awesome. Did you see the squint-eyed mean look he was giving there? That seemed like an "I'm the man here!" kind of look. I think he intended it for Nate. Was I the only one who saw that? I was really impressed with his leadership and play.

ChicagoJ
02-23-2009, 11:37 PM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?

Unclebuck
02-23-2009, 11:38 PM
Jeff played a horrible game - no doubt about it. But I think it is just wrong for some of you to say that he sucks. are you the same people who have been sayiing all season that Jacks sucks.

Overall the Pacers played extremely hard, Jack, daniels, Murph were great

Are we forgetting that our 3 best players were out tonight

BPump33
02-23-2009, 11:38 PM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?

I was wondering when this question was coming. :laugh:

I didn't notice any tonight (not that it matters to me), however I did notice David Lee did it in the first quarter.

Murphy (other than the travel) had a very good game tonight.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 11:38 PM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?

This is actually a topic of discussion with you people?

Is it not his job to "steal" rebounds wherever he can find them?

BPump33
02-23-2009, 11:39 PM
Jeff played a horrible game - no doubt about it. But I think it is just wrong for some of you to say that he sucks. are you the same people who have been sayiing all season that Jacks sucks.

Overall the Pacers played extremely hard, Jack, daniels, Murph were great

Foster sucked tonight. I don't think he sucks in general, but I think his best days are behind him and I think not trading him at the deadline is going to come back to haunt us. I really, really hope he proves me wrong.

McKeyFan
02-23-2009, 11:40 PM
So frustrating that after two timeouts we couldn't design a play to inbounds a pass.

Quis and Rush were both just standing in the corners. Five players should be moving to give the passer some options. Wasn't that evident after Foster called a timeout?

All I can do is shake my head.

We fought so hard and valiantly, then to lose it on such a pitiful play . . .

Cherokee
02-23-2009, 11:41 PM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?

He stole 21 from the Knicks.

sloopjohnb
02-23-2009, 11:42 PM
Ford came down with the flu? How is it that players on this team get sick all the time?

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:42 PM
I think during the game Chris said that Roy is learning to take charges. Does anyone think Roy should concentrate more on getting blocks rather than taking charges? I mean, being able to take charges is great, but it seems more logical to me that a 7'2'' guy should go "upwards" and try to block or interfere, rather than "move really fast" to get a charge. A lot of his fouls seems to be blocking fouls.

Justin Tyme
02-23-2009, 11:42 PM
Personally with 3 starters out, I felt good the Pacers stayed in the game and had an opportunity to win it. I would have liked to have seen the Pacers win the game even though they didn't. They could have folded numerous times, but kept coming back. If they had played the "D" they did against Chicago, they would have won this game. You don't win many games giving up 123 points, but we already know this all to well.

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:42 PM
Jeff played a horrible game - no doubt about it. But I think it is just wrong for some of you to say that he sucks. are you the same people who have been sayiing all season that Jacks sucks.



I've been saying it all season. But not even I expected him to be this bad in a game.

Suaveness
02-23-2009, 11:43 PM
This is actually a topic of discussion with you people?

Is it not his job to "steal" rebounds wherever he can find them?

Shh.

grace
02-23-2009, 11:44 PM
I was driving home listening to the last 30 seconds of the game. When I heard what a night Nate had I wondered how long it would be before someone on the board brought up Speedbag.

I didn't think it would be in the title of the thread. You really need to let it go, Shade. Please. :pray:

Cherokee
02-23-2009, 11:44 PM
Any game in which a player is worse than Larry Hughes is a major bad game.

Einstein
02-23-2009, 11:45 PM
I think during the game Chris said that Roy is learning to take charges. Does anyone think Roy should concentrate more on getting blocks rather than taking charges? I mean, being able to take charges is great, but it seems more logical to me that a 7'2'' guy should go "upwards" and try to block or interfere, rather than "move really fast" to get a charge. A lot of his fouls seems to be blocking fouls.


Without a doubt. He still hasn't figured out that you need to stop moving in order to take a charge.

Dr. Goldfoot
02-23-2009, 11:45 PM
So frustrating that after two timeouts we couldn't design a play to inbounds a pass.

Quis and Rush were both just standing in the corners. Five players should be moving to give the passer some options. Wasn't that evident after Foster called a timeout?

All I can do is shake my head.

We fought so hard and valiantly, then to lose it on such a pitiful play . . .


I think this is being overlooked. Two straight play calls from a timeout and nobody even gets a slight step on their man. I questioned Jeff's pass , he should have at least thrown it under the basket instead of to mid court but those were his two options. It's craptacular that the best they could do in that situation came down to sections of the court in which to turn it over.

Suaveness
02-23-2009, 11:45 PM
Jeff played a horrible game - no doubt about it. But I think it is just wrong for some of you to say that he sucks. are you the same people who have been sayiing all season that Jacks sucks.

Overall the Pacers played extremely hard, Jack, daniels, Murph were great

Are we forgetting that our 3 best players were out tonight


Hey now. There's no need for common sense in this discussion.

PacersRule
02-23-2009, 11:47 PM
If we won this game, and Devin Harris didn't hit the last second half court shot to get the win against the Philies, we would've moved to the 10th spot in the East...

mrknowname
02-23-2009, 11:47 PM
i was hoping jack would punch that midget tonight

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:47 PM
And I don't blame Foster for the turnover. That is squarely on JOB's shoulders.

grace
02-23-2009, 11:48 PM
Ford came down with the flu? How is it that players on this team get sick all the time?

Speaking as someone who was sick for the last week it's pretty game easy.

grace
02-23-2009, 11:52 PM
And I don't blame Foster for the turnover. That is squarely on JOB's shoulders.

I didn't see the play. How is a turnover the coach's fault?

Cherokee
02-23-2009, 11:53 PM
And I don't blame Foster for the turnover. That is squarely on JOB's shoulders.

Well, the results would have been better had the pass actually landed on JOB's shoulders.

Shade
02-23-2009, 11:54 PM
I was driving home listening to the last 30 seconds of the game. When I heard what a night Nate had I wondered how long it would be before someone on the board brought up Speedbag.

I didn't think it would be in the title of the thread. You really need to let it go, Shade. Please. :pray:

With the way he killed us tonight, it seemed appropriate.

Anthem
02-23-2009, 11:54 PM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?
Come on, dude. Don't go there.

Shade
02-23-2009, 11:56 PM
I didn't see the play. How is a turnover the coach's fault?

You don't give a monkey a mallet and then get upset at the monkey when he clubs someone with it.

BRushWithDeath
02-23-2009, 11:57 PM
You don't give a monkey a mallet and then get upset at the monkey when he clubs someone with it.

Couldn't have answered it better.

D-BONE
02-24-2009, 12:00 AM
So frustrating that after two timeouts we couldn't design a play to inbounds a pass.

Quis and Rush were both just standing in the corners. Five players should be moving to give the passer some options. Wasn't that evident after Foster called a timeout?

All I can do is shake my head.

We fought so hard and valiantly, then to lose it on such a pitiful play . . .

Great point. Valid question. As I was watching the game and ensuing replays of our futile attempts to inbound, my observation is there was practically no difference between the pre and post-time out plays.
Not sure what the logic of that is when you can't get it in the first time.

Looked like JOB was dead set on getting Jack backing Robinson down in the lane or starting that way and then popping back out. If there was any other legit option to receive the ball, I didn't see it. Whether the rest of the guys weren't executing or just not making themselves available, I don't know. NY did defend it well, but you'd think somebody could at least get open enough to get it in.

Kemo
02-24-2009, 12:00 AM
Ford came down with the flu? How is it that players on this team get sick all the time?


Well, I'ma tell you ... the flu (the real bad one) has been virulent this year ..

Starts out with a bad headache for a day or 2 , then goes into severe body aches , high fever, no appetite , didnt eat for 3 days , everything tastes like poo , you are pretty much confined to bed for at LEAST 3 to 4 days once you get into the body ache phase... pretty much you are sick for a week before it starts letting up... I lost about 15 lbs ..

I just got over it myself.. and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy ..

Last year I got the exact same type of flu right around the same time of year .. and after i had finally got over it after a week.. I caught it again 4 days later....

The thing with this flu , is you absolutely MUST keep things sanitized or you will catch it a 2nd time, and everyone in your house will end up with it ...

I learned the hard way .. Lysol is a savior ...

AS bad as this flu is, if it spread amongst the locker room, we prally would have to forfeit games, cause it could wipe out the whole locker-room , it's that virulent..

hell you seen what happened last time to our guys.. heck Murph lost like 20 pounds i think ..

Einstein
02-24-2009, 12:01 AM
On the tired, tired, subject of Murphy and the stolen rebounds... I did notice tonight that the rest of the Pacers usually run away from the ball when its between Murphy and themselves. It happens even when the other Pacer clearly has the advantage. They just have to see that Murphy could also get to it. For that reason the behavior seems like part of a coached plan to me. Maybe the real issue the other day was that Ford forgot and strayed from the program.

BRushWithDeath
02-24-2009, 12:02 AM
I didn't see the play. How is a turnover the coach's fault?

JOB is a master at setting people up to fail.

Justin Tyme
02-24-2009, 12:02 AM
If we won this game, and Devin Harris didn't hit the last second half court shot to get the win against the Philies, we would've moved to the 10th spot in the East...


"IF".... the mightest little word in the English dictionary.

IF frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their rears when they land.

Kuq_e_Zi91
02-24-2009, 12:04 AM
Even if Jeff couldn't throw it in to anyone, he still had a timeout available. Worst case scenario you use all your timeouts just for that inbound, but you absolutely can't throw the ball away. He literally gave the game away. All the great play by Jack and Marquis thrown away on a bonehead play by what should be the seasoned veteran on this team. Just great.

grace
02-24-2009, 12:04 AM
You don't give a monkey a mallet and then get upset at the monkey when he clubs someone with it.

Ultimately it's Larry Bird's fault for hiring JOB in the first place. He isn't coaching any different that I thought he would when they hired him.

avoidingtheclowns
02-24-2009, 12:06 AM
You don't give a monkey a mallet and then get upset at the monkey when he clubs someone with it.

JOB trusted you to make the pass shade. just own up and move on.

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:07 AM
Ultimately it's Larry Bird's fault for hiring JOB in the first place. He isn't coaching any different that I thought he would when they hired him.

So then, we should just lay the blame at Bird's feet?

Sounds like a plan to me.

Kemo
02-24-2009, 12:08 AM
well on the bright-side we are 2-1 since T-wolves game ..

Kuq_e_Zi91
02-24-2009, 12:09 AM
And you can't blame the coach. It's very easy to do and the easy way out, but JOB is making the most of the roster right now. Would you even think we'd be in these games without our best players?

Maybe you can blame JOB for games earlier this season, but this game in particular is not his fault. I don't see how you set someone up to fail if they still have a timeout they can use if they are not able to inbound the ball. Foster panicked, like we've seen him do before. Great games by everyone else go to waste.

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:09 AM
JOB trusted you to make the pass shade. just own up and move on.

:laugh:

Seriously, though, Foster and I play nothing alike. I can shoot circles around him.

(Actually, he can shoot circles around me as well, but in his case, it's only in the literal sense.)

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:13 AM
And you can't blame the coach. It's very easy to do and the easy way out, but JOB is making the most of the roster right now. Would you even think we'd be in these games without our best players?

Maybe you can blame JOB for games earlier this season, but this game in particular is not his fault. I don't see how you set someone up to fail if they still have a timeout they can use if they are not able to inbound the ball. Foster panicked, like we've seen him do before. Great games by everyone else go to waste.

Overall, JOB's coaching wasn't too bad tonight. But you'd think after the incident earlier in the season that there was no reason to put Foster in that position in the first place.

BRushWithDeath
02-24-2009, 12:15 AM
I can think of no other time in his career that Foster has inbounded the ball from that baseline. For that reason, it is JOB's fault. He never should have been put in that position.

ReginaldWayne
02-24-2009, 12:18 AM
Inquiring minds need to know: did Murphy steal any rebounds from his teammates tonight?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

jhondog28
02-24-2009, 12:18 AM
Well, I'ma tell you ... the flu (the real bad one) has been virulent this year ..

Starts out with a bad headache for a day or 2 , then goes into severe body aches , high fever, no appetite , didnt eat for 3 days , everything tastes like poo , you are pretty much confined to bed for at LEAST 3 to 4 days once you get into the body ache phase... pretty much you are sick for a week before it starts letting up... I lost about 15 lbs ..

I just got over it myself.. and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy ..

Last year I got the exact same type of flu right around the same time of year .. and after i had finally got over it after a week.. I caught it again 4 days later....

The thing with this flu , is you absolutely MUST keep things sanitized or you will catch it a 2nd time, and everyone in your house will end up with it ...

I learned the hard way .. Lysol is a savior ...

AS bad as this flu is, if it spread amongst the locker room, we prally would have to forfeit games, cause it could wipe out the whole locker-room , it's that virulent..

hell you seen what happened last time to our guys.. heck Murph lost like 20 pounds i think ..


I know this is going to sound kinda strange but why in the hell do the trainers not give players flu shots before the season. This boggles my mind. I know there are different strains of the flu but are you seriously telling me that the training staff does not think of this.:confused:

Justin Tyme
02-24-2009, 12:19 AM
JOB is a master at setting people up to fail.


I'm all for giving O'Brien credit for his mistakes, but he didn't make the pass nor did he have the other players standing around. Players error not JO'B's fault!

ReginaldWayne
02-24-2009, 12:20 AM
Im not gna blame job for having foster throw in that inbound pass. But, what certainly is warranted is an explanation why in he did that.

Unclebuck
02-24-2009, 12:23 AM
Overall, JOB's coaching wasn't too bad tonight. But you'd think after the incident earlier in the season that there was no reason to put Foster in that position in the first place.

I assume you mean the play where they inbounded the ball to Jeff? I don't see how that is even close to the same thing

PaceBalls
02-24-2009, 12:24 AM
The play where Jeff threw it away, it seemed like no one knew what the heck they were doing. Two timeouts and you can't get anyone open to recieve an inbound pass? I don't know if that is Jim's fault or just how dumb the players were. Maybe a combination of the two. For all you know Jim set up a brilliant in bounds play where Murph set a double screen to pop at the 3-pt line that the guys just couldn't execute.

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:31 AM
I assume you mean the play where they inbounded the ball to Jeff? I don't see how that is even close to the same thing

In both instances, Foster should not have even been in the game. We needed to score both times, and Foster is a sub-par shooter and not an exceptional passer, either.

avoidingtheclowns
02-24-2009, 12:32 AM
:laugh:

Seriously, though, Foster and I play nothing alike. I can shoot circles around him.

(Actually, he can shoot circles around me as well, but in his case, it's only in the literal sense.)

whatevs.

also, i liked you better with the 'stache. just sayin'.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3305017275_236f80bd83_o.jpg

Justin Tyme
02-24-2009, 12:37 AM
I'm surprised the roast Foster crowd hasn't mentioned that Foster had only 1 more reb than turn over.... 6 rebs and 5 turn overs.

I will say it again that giving Foster an extension during the season was a huge mistake.

Peck
02-24-2009, 12:37 AM
Hard to be to upset about this loss. I mean we are missing our top three scorers, three of our five starters, Foster is just coming off of an injury and we are playing on a back to back, Oh and Daniels was sick for the game but played.

Overall I was very pleased with the teams effort and I had no real problem with the coaching. I mean we can nitpick over the inbounds play, and if this game really meant anything I would probably be more upset, but overall the game was fine.

I guess we are just going to have to give O'Brien the benefit of the doubt here and assume that McRoberts is just not very good and has no real place on our team other than as a towel waver and practice player. I was hoping for more, but I don't see them practice every day.

I mean if Josh can't get in now then I just don't think there will come a time, other than when the team officially throws in the towel.

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:39 AM
That is horrifying. :eek:

BRushWithDeath
02-24-2009, 12:47 AM
I guess we are just going to have to give O'Brien the benefit of the doubt here and assume that McRoberts is just not very good and has no real place on our team other than as a towel waver and practice player. I was hoping for more, but I don't see them practice every day.

I mean if Josh can't get in now then I just don't think there will come a time, other than when the team officially throws in the towel.

It doesn't make any sense to me me either. Foster just had the worst game he's had in his career and he's banged up. Maceo hasn't done much of anything and he's 33 years old. Even if McRoberts does suck, what do we have to lose by playing him? I just don't get it.

duke dynamite
02-24-2009, 12:47 AM
Hard to be to upset about this loss. I mean we are missing our top three scorers, three of our five starters, Foster is just coming off of an injury and we are playing on a back to back, Oh and Daniels was sick for the game but played.

Overall I was very pleased with the teams effort and I had no real problem with the coaching. I mean we can nitpick over the inbounds play, and if this game really meant anything I would probably be more upset, but overall the game was fine.

I guess we are just going to have to give O'Brien the benefit of the doubt here and assume that McRoberts is just not very good and has no real place on our team other than as a towel waver and practice player. I was hoping for more, but I don't see them practice every day.

I mean if Josh can't get in now then I just don't think there will come a time, other than when the team officially throws in the towel.
There is nothing wrong with having an extra body during practices.

Peck
02-24-2009, 12:50 AM
whatevs.

also, i liked you better with the 'stache. just sayin'.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3305017275_236f80bd83_o.jpg

http://i.rollingstone.com/assets/rs/2/1483/images/00106966.jpg

duke dynamite
02-24-2009, 12:52 AM
http://i.rollingstone.com/assets/rs/2/1483/images/00106966.jpg
Oh, that is just too much.

Peck
02-24-2009, 12:53 AM
There is nothing wrong with having an extra body during practices.

Agreed, however I guess I just wanted more. For some reason when I saw him early this season I thought he was really a little bit of what we didn't have. He was athletic, he was tough and agressive.

I just thought that by mid season he would have made his way into a 8-12 min. a game role.

I'm not blaming anyone, I just am a little dissapointed.

avoidingtheclowns
02-24-2009, 12:54 AM
shade is not amused.

:notamused:

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:57 AM
I officially quit this thread. :eek:

PacersRule
02-24-2009, 01:08 AM
I can think of no other time in his career that Foster has inbounded the ball from that baseline. For that reason, it is JOB's fault. He never should have been put in that position.

Who was the person guarding the inbound pass?

WetBob
02-24-2009, 01:12 AM
I guess we are just going to have to give O'Brien the benefit of the doubt here and assume that McRoberts is just not very good and has no real place on our team other than as a towel waver and practice player. I was hoping for more, but I don't see them practice every day.

I mean if Josh can't get in now then I just don't think there will come a time, other than when the team officially throws in the towel.


It doesn't make any sense to me me either. Foster just had the worst game he's had in his career and he's banged up. Maceo hasn't done much of anything and he's 33 years old. Even if McRoberts does suck, what do we have to lose by playing him? I just don't get it.


Agreed, however I guess I just wanted more. For some reason when I saw him early this season I thought he was really a little bit of what we didn't have. He was athletic, he was tough and agressive.

I just thought that by mid season he would have made his way into a 8-12 min. a game role.

I'm not blaming anyone, I just am a little dissapointed.

My take as I posted in the game thread in the early portion of the game:

That's certainly the way it seems to be headed. JOB clearly hates playing rookies. Fine, its his job to win games, but they complained that Josh was pretty much still a rookie this season because he never really got a chance in Portland last season. If they have any desire to keep Josh around (my best judgement says I would guess that they would like to) why not play him now?

I said this earlier in the season, and got lambasted (that happens a lot a round here) but I'm going to say it again.

It is entirely plausible that they are not giving McBob a chance so that they don't have to worry about him playing well and his price going up after the season. By keeping him on the bench, they are keeping his value down.

imawhat
02-24-2009, 01:43 AM
I like Jeff Foster.

larry
02-24-2009, 02:10 AM
jeff always earns his minutes under every coach.
however, that was a BAD pass.
worst play of his career.
we still had a timeout.
he should of taken it
(like he did on the 1st attempt to get the ball in)
before forcing it in.
if you have to force it in due to having 0 timeouts you should throw it under our basket to prevent the breakaway.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 02:29 AM
He is.

*Walks off shaking his head while he continues to wonder to himself why he still reads what BRushWithDeath posts."

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 02:34 AM
As far as Jeff is concerned, call me when you can tell me how he has improved his game since he became a contributor to the Pacers and I'll say he deserved this contract we gave him. The guy has been the EXACT same player for the past 5 years, hasn't added a single thing, and now he is losing the energy that actually made up for his offensive short comings.

Bball
02-24-2009, 02:37 AM
jeff always earns his minutes under every coach.
however, that was a BAD pass.
worst play of his career.


I don't know... I still have nightmares from a few games back with Foster holding the ball with the clock ticking to zero when we needed a shot. Buzzer... no shot.

Maybe this was O'Brien's idea how to avoid that this time.

That play has to be in the equation of Foster's worst plays of his career.



-Bball

WetBob
02-24-2009, 02:47 AM
*Walks off shaking his head while he continues to wonder to himself why he still reads what BRushWithDeath posts."

Save outside shooting and weak-side shot blocking, just what exactly is Danny better at then Quisy?

It isn't defense, passing, rebounding, or ball handling. Perhaps free throw shooting.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 02:53 AM
Save outside shooting and weak-side shot blocking, just what exactly is Danny better at then Quisy?

It isn't defense, passing, rebounding, or ball handling. Perhaps free throw shooting.

You guys realize you're just making yourself look foolish right?

WetBob
02-24-2009, 03:07 AM
You guys realize you're just making yourself look foolish right?

Fantastic rebuttal.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 03:10 AM
Fantastic rebuttal.

Almost as good as...


Save outside shooting and weak-side shot blocking, just what exactly is Danny better at then Quisy?

It isn't defense, passing, rebounding, or ball handling. Perhaps free throw shooting.

I don't need to write up much of a rebuttal for that to be considered a weak argument.

Midcoasted
02-24-2009, 04:02 AM
What was up with all those phatom foul calls for Robinson? It was the worse I've seen the refs blow the whistle in a while. It was plain sick how bad the calls were. When did this dude start getting the All Star treatment and why? He wouldnt even get set and run into us and we'd get the offensive foul? Or we wouldn't even touch him and get the defensive foul? This is why I hate the NBA. The ONLY reason we lost was due to the phantom fouls and the fact we couldn't inbound the ball.

Peck
02-24-2009, 04:04 AM
Could we please stop with the name calling?

I understand that times are tough and everybody is going to be touchy, but please try and be civil towards one another.

Suaveness
02-24-2009, 04:13 AM
Could we please stop with the name calling?

I understand that times are tough and everybody is going to be touchy, but please try and be civil towards one another.


I think your Avatar needs a facelift.


Oh, and Jim O'Brien sucks. I figured it's been too many posts since this has been said.

WetBob
02-24-2009, 04:25 AM
Oh, and Jim O'Brien sucks. I figured it's been too many posts since this has been said.

It could be said in every other post and still be on the verge of understated.

kester99
02-24-2009, 04:28 AM
Meanwhile, back at the post-game, the thing that kept going through my mind when Jeff was inbounding, was that the inbounding player is potentially the greatest threat on an out-of-bounds play. If one buys into that, Jeff clearly was not the guy to be inbounding the ball. If we didn't want him on the floor receiving an inbound pass because of his poor shooting, he should also have not been the inbounder. Is anyone going to kick it back to Jeff for a corner three?

I'd rather have been beaten by 20 points.

WetBob
02-24-2009, 04:39 AM
I'd rather have been beaten by 20 points.

When they make the highlight video of this season, that's what they should title it.

"I'd rather have been beaten by 20 points."

That pretty much sums up everything thus far.

imawhat
02-24-2009, 05:15 AM
According to the IndyStar, it was Jack who also screwed up on that inbounds play because of a missed cut.

It doesn't help when we put the all-NBA choke team on the floor at the end.

pacersgroningen
02-24-2009, 07:19 AM
According to the IndyStar, it was Jack who also screwed up on that inbounds play because of a missed cut.

It doesn't help when we put the all-NBA choke team on the floor at the end.

Don't know if it's the all-NBA choke team, it's not like we had TJ in there for the clutch FT's..

DisplacedKnick
02-24-2009, 07:56 AM
That play has to be in the equation of Foster's worst plays of his career.


That play isn't on Foster. He's the one guy on the floor in that play who can't set a screen or move.

Well, evidently 3 other players couldn't either for some reason . . .

MIGHT be on JOB.

And I apologize for us winning that game. Didn't see much of it but from what I did see our play was :puke:

count55
02-24-2009, 09:37 AM
According to the IndyStar, it was Jack who also screwed up on that inbounds play because of a missed cut.

It doesn't help when we put the all-NBA choke team on the floor at the end.

Well, it certainly sounds like Jack did blow that play. The responsibility lies on both O'Brien and Jack for not being absolutely sure that they understood each other.

Still and all, I have a hard time being too critical of a guy who scored 14 fourth quarter points last night. I only got to see the last 7 minutes or so of the game, and I thought that he was the main reason we even had a shot at winning the game.

As to the Daniels/Granger thing, I never understand why we do this to ourselves. Marquis is clearly playing well this year, and I'm happy about that. I do think he's a better on-the-ball defender than Danny, and he has better handles. However, Danny is a far better shooter, in all aspects, and I think he's a better, more consistent scorer. I also think Daniels' poor outside shooting hurts him in the fourth quarter. His struggles have nothing to do with being clutch, but more to do with the fact that there's a clear way to guard him, an obvious weakness that you can push him towards.

Though it's a recent development, I also think Danny is a better passer. He has very good vision, and his ability to create shots and find his teammates has blossomed over the course of this season. That's another reason that I'd give an advantage to Danny. Though only two years younger than Daniels, he seems to be on a continual upward arc of improvement. Daniels, IMO, has the same basic game that he's always had, but his production has been entirely dependent on health. Danny, on the other hand, has pretty much continually added things to his game, as with his passing.

Quis is a nice player, and it's a shame that we most likely won't be able to pick up his option. Had the cap grown at the 5% rate it has over the last few years (instead of declining as it is projected), I'm think we probably would have. Unfortunately, with only $11mm to sign 6 players, we just can't afford it.

Unclebuck
02-24-2009, 10:05 AM
As far as Jeff is concerned, call me when you can tell me how he has improved his game since he became a contributor to the Pacers and I'll say he deserved this contract we gave him. The guy has been the EXACT same player for the past 5 years, hasn't added a single thing, and now he is losing the energy that actually made up for his offensive short comings.

Free throw shooting, outside shooting, passing, team defense, one-on-one defense, blocking out, knowing the game, being more physical......really I could name a number of other things

McKeyFan
02-24-2009, 10:11 AM
I'm all for giving O'Brien credit for his mistakes, but he didn't make the pass nor did he have the other players standing around. Players error not JO'B's fault!

I'm guessing he DID have the other players standing around. And there's where he made a huge coaching error last night. First time, forgivable. But not changing anything after the timeout? Bad coaching.

Which is too bad, because he coached an excellent game otherwise.

Fairly reflective of what you get in O'Brien. Creative strategist, good players coach, questionable tactician.

duke dynamite
02-24-2009, 10:15 AM
Could we please stop with the name calling?

I understand that times are tough and everybody is going to be touchy, but please try and be civil towards one another.
I said something similar in the game thread, the personal attacks are just way out of hand lately, and I feel like it is tearing this board apart.

Making fun of someone who has a disability should not be tolerated one bit.

Please, everyone just get along.

ABADays
02-24-2009, 10:17 AM
That play isn't on Foster. He's the one guy on the floor in that play who can't set a screen or move.

Well, evidently 3 other players couldn't either for some reason . . .

MIGHT be on JOB.

And I apologize for us winning that game. Didn't see much of it but from what I did see our play was :puke:

Surely you should be banned for making sense.

McKeyFan
02-24-2009, 10:18 AM
According to the IndyStar, it was Jack who also screwed up on that inbounds play because of a missed cut.

JOB should have had more than one option. Rush and Quis shouldn't have just been standing in the corners.

McKeyFan
02-24-2009, 10:23 AM
Another topic: did anyone notice the play near the end where Troy came over and clobbered, can't remember which Knick, when they came down the lane for a layup/dunk?

He looked like the enforcer we have all been asking for.

Justin Tyme
02-24-2009, 10:28 AM
Well, it certainly sounds like Jack did blow that play. The responsibility lies on both O'Brien and Jack for not being absolutely sure that they understood each other.

Still and all, I have a hard time being too critical of a guy who scored 14 fourth quarter points last night. I only got to see the last 7 minutes or so of the game, and I thought that he was the main reason we even had a shot at winning the game.

As to the Daniels/Granger thing, I never understand why we do this to ourselves. Marquis is clearly playing well this year, and I'm happy about that. I do think he's a better on-the-ball defender than Danny, and he has better handles. However, Danny is a far better shooter, in all aspects, and I think he's a better, more consistent scorer. I also think Daniels' poor outside shooting hurts him in the fourth quarter. His struggles have nothing to do with being clutch, but more to do with the fact that there's a clear way to guard him, an obvious weakness that you can push him towards.

Though it's a recent development, I also think Danny is a better passer. He has very good vision, and his ability to create shots and find his teammates has blossomed over the course of this season. That's another reason that I'd give an advantage to Danny. Though only two years younger than Daniels, he seems to be on a continual upward arc of improvement. Daniels, IMO, has the same basic game that he's always had, but his production has been entirely dependent on health. Danny, on the other hand, has pretty much continually added things to his game, as with his passing.

Quis is a nice player, and it's a shame that we most likely won't be able to pick up his option. Had the cap grown at the 5% rate it has over the last few years (instead of declining as it is projected), I'm think we probably would have. Unfortunately, with only $11mm to sign 6 players, we just can't afford it.


Would you quit making so much sense.

There are some misguided souls who would complain after winning the lottery on a ticket someone gave them for free because of all the taxes that was taken out. When Daniels plays more than 2/3 of a season uninjured, increases his game 4 years in a row, becomes an ALLSTAR, and is one of the leaders in the NBA in scoring this conversation might have some relevance. Until then, it is silly to try and insinuate Daniels is a better player than Granger. How many GM's if they had a choice between Granger and Daniels would take Daniels? Not any that doesn't want to look like a fool and wants to keep their jobs!

Jonathan
02-24-2009, 10:35 AM
The Knicks were 7-3 in their last ten games. They lost to Lakers, Celtics, & Cavs. I respect the fact we played well and did not quit. Keep in mind we were down ten points and came back to tie the game in the fourth quater.

Justin Tyme
02-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Another topic: did anyone notice the play near the end where Troy came over and clobbered, can't remember which Knick, when they came down the lane for a layup/dunk?

He looked like the enforcer we have all been asking for.


How many noticed the times he took the ball to the basket as well? Some probably never notice either, for they were too busy seeing if he stole any of the 21 rebounds he gathered in. You know those 21 offensive extra chances he gave the Pacers to win this game.

Or how he stepped up his game in the 2nd half after having a poor 1st half scoring. I noticed, and I appreciated it if no one else did.

Major Cold
02-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Shade did you not project this team to win 29 games or so? Why are you so emotionally distraught?

Speed
02-24-2009, 11:24 AM
A couple of observations:

Nate on 3 occaisions in the first half ran directly into Foster and THREW himself on the floor, it was quite comical. He tried so hard to draw a cheap foul on Jeff, it never worked.

Jeff looked ill to me or gassed or something. I'm not sure why they stuck with him so long when Maceo and Rasho were available. Maybe I'm wrong, but Jeff just looked like he didn't have his legs and then to ask him to guard Al, wow.

Jack stepped up to the game, I like him more and more that he's not afraid of the moment. Earlier in the year he'd do something bonehead down the stretch, but there isn't one other guy on the team I'd rather have at the Free Throw line in the last minutes.

Marquis is pretty unique. If he had a jumper, he'd be Jalen Rose-like, imho. You wish he could stay healthy and you wish he could shoot 30% instead of 20% from downtown. Then you'd have a starting quality 2 guard in the right situation. He can guard his position and that is really huge to me.

Inbound play was horrible obviously and it's easy to second guess, but why have not your best passer inbounding the ball, that didn't make sense to me. Maybe because Jeff was the veteran they trusted him more, I'm not sure.

That was a tough loss to be up 2 with a minute left and never get another shot off (I don't think, at least)

OakMoses
02-24-2009, 11:32 AM
If we're going to compare 'Quis vs. Danny, there are some other things to consider.

Let's start with the fact that over the course of his career 'Quis has only played in 73% of the games his team has played. Danny has played in 96%. This is not to mention the number of games 'Quis has played in over the last 3 years and been terrible due to one of a myriad of injuries.

Ultimately, I don't think 'Quis is demonstrably better at ball-handling, passing, or rebounding. I don't even think he's better at creating his own shot.

I'll concede 3 categories where 'Quis is better than Granger: Finishing in the paint, perimeter defense, and deflections.

Every other category is a wash.

The main difference to me is this: In the categories where 'Quis is better, he has a slight edge on Granger. Granger is still a good defender, a good finisher, and gets his fair share of steals and deflections. When you look at shooting, Granger is a very good to great shooter, whereas 'Quis is bad.

xtacy
02-24-2009, 11:57 AM
words can't explain how much it pisses me of to see we let nate score 41 points.

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:08 PM
Shade did you not project this team to win 29 games or so? Why are you so emotionally distraught?

You know what? I really don't know.

I should be glad we lost. Gets us closer to a better draft pick since, let's face it, we're not going to make the playoffs. But I still find myself rooting for them to win when I actually watch a game. :crazy:

NuffSaid
02-24-2009, 12:20 PM
words can't explain how much it pisses me of to see we let nate score 41 points.
You!?! I'm beyond tic'd off!

Dude scores 9 pts in the 1st-half, then 32 pts in the 2nd! GTF outta here!!! I just could not believe it!

One thing every team that faces the Pacers can count on is somebody on the opposing team WILL have a breakout game against them. It's happened all season long and it's so frustrating!

Speed
02-24-2009, 12:26 PM
One thing every team that faces the Pacers can count on is somebody on the opposing team WILL have a breakout game against them. It's happened all season long and it's so frustrating!

I think about that after almost every game.

Season or career high for <insert name>.

I mean it, it seems like almost EVERY game!!

Frustrating

Jon Theodore
02-24-2009, 12:28 PM
Over these past few games, I began wondering, why in the world would we not want to keep Marquis? He was awesome tonight! He defends well and is able to put up points. Bird should try his best to trade Dunleavy for a inside defender/rebounder so Marquis and Rush can have the wings.

It is very apparent, that quis needs to be at LEAST the 7th man on the team to be productive. He is just not good enough to come in and be the 8 or 9 guy and play 15 minutes and be productive.

We are better with Daniels starting than with Dun starting. Ford, Daniels, Granger, Murphy, Hibbert is a pretty solid starting five. Especially in a year or two when Hibbert is more developed.

If Daniels can become better at the three, we'd be dangerous with that line-up. His defense and ability to create benefits our team more than Dunleavy's shooting/passing ability (i love dunleavy, can't believe I am saying this)

Shade
02-24-2009, 12:28 PM
I think about that after almost every game.

Season or career high for .

I mean it, it seems like almost EVERY game!!

Frustrating

That's what happens when you don't play defense.

Speedbag was in full Iverson mode last night.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 12:33 PM
Free throw shooting, outside shooting, passing, team defense, one-on-one defense, blocking out, knowing the game, being more physical......really I could name a number of other things

UB, I realize you and I have different takes on Jeff and I respect that.

That being said, I have to say that his outside shooting has not been improved during his entire career, IMHO. I know every summer we get spoon fed the story that Jeff is in the gym working on his mid-range J and every season he continues to disappoint. To me, the Jeff Foster has improved his mid-range jumper fluff story every summer from the Pacers.com or IndyStar is on par with the Jamaal Tinsley is in the best shape of his career or Jermaine O'Neal feels 100% stories we became so used to hearing. It's a fluff piece and nothing more designed to give us a couple days of sunshine in the summer.

Free throw shooting? I don't know he's been pretty erratic his entire career. He's leveled out in the low 60s, but I don't know if I can truly say he has improved.

Passing, now here is an interesting point. While I do think that one could argue that Jeff has improved his passing how drastic of an improvement has that been? His assist numbers have jumped up to nearly two a game, but you could argue that Jeff has experienced that due to a different style of offense. Regardless, I will concede that Jeff's passing has probably improved.

Team defense, one on one defense, blocking out and knowing the game. I think Jeff has been relatively the exact same player in these four categories ever since he became a major part of the rotation in 2003-2004. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as you could argue Jeff is above average in all of these categories, what is bothersome is that he hasn't improved in areas that have always held him back.

Being more physical, I suppose this is purely a matter of opinion, but as far as I'm concerned I could never under any circumstances consider Jeff Foster a physical player. I think he's a competitor, but I don't think he is physical.

That's just my opinion on Jeff, and like I said UB I realize that you and I have a vastly different view on him. However, IMO the Pacers missed the boat by not moving him. He is 32, and is clearly declining fast. Now they are stuck with his contract, and I don't think his value is going to increase, more than likely it will begin decreasing very soon. I understand Jeff has been a Pacer for a long time, and I know many would like to see him retire one. Unfortunately, I don't believe it is in this franchise's best interest to be sentimental right now. Jeff has been a large part of one of the most disfunctional eras in the history of the Pacers. That is not his fault by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't mean that we should hang onto him til the bitter end just because he was one of the lone bright spots.

We traded Dale Davis who was a better all around player, and a large part of one of the most successful eras in Pacers history. I don't see why we are so sentimental when it comes to Jeff Foster.

BillS
02-24-2009, 12:37 PM
We traded Dale Davis who was a better all around player, and a large part of one of the most successful eras in Pacers history. I don't see why we are so sentimental when it comes to Jeff Foster.

I don't think you can say people weren't sentimental about Dale.

In any event, Dale wanted to go (for whatever reason, we won't go into why or who drove the desire).

The "problem" with Jeff is not Jeff, it is that we are in a position where coaches fall in love with him and he is asked to be more than he really probably should. We really should have a better starting 4/5 combination that does not involve Jeff so that he can come off the bench, but we end up not doing it. It isn't just JOB, because previous coaches have done the same thing as Jeff worked his way into the starting lineup.

Jeff is not overpaid, he is a decent bench player at his position, and is a good influence in the locker room and with the fan base. He is by no means untouchable but you had better get something other than sameness on the floor from any trade that involves him.

Einstein
02-24-2009, 12:41 PM
On Quis vs. Granger... when you say that Granger has the better long range jumper isn't that enough? Granger's jumper is totally sweet. Its smooth, its quick, it leaves his hand very high up, and it goes in. That jumper got him into the All Star game. Who cares that Quis is better than him at a lot of other aspects of the game?

Also, for me, the Foster throw in play was very strange. It seemed to me that Quis normally throws the ball in when he is playing. In fact, Quis did the very next throw in. Why Foster for that one? And after he already had problems and had to call the time out? Plus, Quis was totally gone from an energy standpoint by that time. I don't even know why he was out there. He didn't even try to get away from his man, and couldn't set a decent pick for Murphy. About the only thing he could do was the throw in...

I'm just still frustrated with that stupid play today.

avoidingtheclowns
02-24-2009, 12:42 PM
nate has scored at least 30 in four of the last six games. little man is going off on everyone.

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 12:43 PM
I don't think you can say people weren't sentimental about Dale.

Understood, I myself am a huge DD fan. Just saying that I think at least part of why the TPTB are so reluctant to part with him is the fact that he is considered a "fan favorite". My question is, how many people are going to see the Pacers because of Jeff Foster?


In any event, Dale wanted to go (for whatever reason, we won't go into why or who drove the desire).


Agreed.



The "problem" with Jeff is not Jeff, it is that we are in a position where coaches fall in love with him and he is asked to be more than he really probably should. We really should have a better starting 4/5 combination that does not involve Jeff so that he can come off the bench, but we end up not doing it. It isn't just JOB, because previous coaches have done the same thing as Jeff worked his way into the starting lineup.


I 100% agree with this as well, but if that's not in the cards then you need to consider moving him.



Jeff is not overpaid, he is a decent bench player at his position, and is a good influence in the locker room and with the fan base. He is by no means untouchable but you had better get something other than sameness on the floor from any trade that involves him.

I think Jeff is overpaid, but in a similar way to the fact that Murphy or Dun are overpaid. Some nights they are worth it, other nights they aren't. They aren't the worst contracts around, but it certainly is an amount that slightly bothers me.

I don't advocate a trade for the sake of a trade. However, I think you are at a situation where Jeff's value will only go lower as he ages. IMO, you probably had Jeff at his peak value this deadline or last year's deadline. From here on out, I think what you get back for Jeff is going to be declining quickly.

tonythetiger
02-24-2009, 12:43 PM
It doesn't make any sense to me me either. Foster just had the worst game he's had in his career and he's banged up. Maceo hasn't done much of anything and he's 33 years old.
I don't get why Rasho was glued to the bench the whole second half with Roy in foul trouble and Jeff sucking, but I suppose the Pacers have no use for him since he will be gone after the season-- or maybe they do want to convince hin to take a buy out?

Unclebuck
02-24-2009, 12:45 PM
I have no problem trading Jeff - just like I have never had any problem with him coming off the bench. I know it will take a pretty good player to beat Jeff out and I know it will have to be a pretty good trade to make TPTB decide to trade Foster.

To put it in its bluntest (is that even a word) terms - I know that the coaches, and Pacers ownership and management value Jeff a lot higher than a lot of posters in this forum - so I'm very confident that if he is traded it will be for an excellent trade. They aren't going to trade him just to get rid of Tinsley or for some draft pick that is not a good one.

Besides all that - I think many of the snide remarks towards Jeff are uncalled for and I don't like those comments. I have no problem saying he had a bad game last night, and make some crucial mistakes - but seems like a number of you have just been waiting for this opportunity to rip Jeff a new one

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 12:45 PM
I don't get why Rasho was glued to the bench the whole second half with Roy in foul trouble and Jeff sucking, but I suppose the Pacers have no use for him since he will be gone after the season-- or maybe they do want to convince hin to take a buy out?

I think you're just dealing with the fact that O'Brien has no idea how to rotate his big men in and out of the game.

Beyond that pot shot at JOB, I think you just have to consider the fact that Rasho physically may not be able to play that many minutes in our run and gun offense, let alone against another team that plays a run and gun style.

grace
02-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Speedbag was in full Iverson mode last night.

:slap:

BRushWithDeath
02-24-2009, 01:29 PM
On Quis vs. Granger... when you say that Granger has the better long range jumper isn't that enough? Granger's jumper is totally sweet. Its smooth, its quick, it leaves his hand very high up, and it goes in. That jumper got him into the All Star game. Who cares that Quis is better than him at a lot of other aspects of the game?



Finally, someone who get's what I was saying. I never thought Quis was better than Granger. Just better at a lot of things. Danny is clearly the better player. I'd never argue that.

Cherokee
02-24-2009, 01:40 PM
I understand Jeff has been a Pacer for a long time, and I know many would like to see him retire one.

I'd like to see him retire a Pacer, too. How about this afternoon?

Trader Joe
02-24-2009, 01:41 PM
Finally, someone who get's what I was saying. I never thought Quis was better than Granger. Just better at a lot of things. Danny is clearly the better player. I'd never argue that.

So why even bring it up? Basically what's your point? When you brought it up no one was attacking Quis or going after him. Yet you felt the need to randomly say this in the game thread last night totally unprovoked...


I said it yesterday and it's more apparent tonight.

Marquis Daniels is better in every phase of the game than Danny Granger with outside shooting being the lone exception.

So I ask again, what was your point? Other than to incite a response. Everyone was praising Quis in the game thread, yet you still felt the need to post something like that.

And I don't know how you can be better in every phase of the game than someone else and not be the better player.

WetBob
02-24-2009, 02:26 PM
So why even bring it up? Basically what's your point? When you brought it up no one was attacking Quis or going after him. Yet you felt the need to randomly say this in the game thread last night totally unprovoked...



So I ask again, what was your point? Other than to incite a response. Everyone was praising Quis in the game thread, yet you still felt the need to post something like that.

And I don't know how you can be better in every phase of the game than someone else and not be the better player.

Why does this bother you so much? I can't for the life of me figure out, how you can be so dense as to just construct animosity in posts where there is none. It is not attacking Danny to say that he is not as complete a player as Daniels.

It is entirely possible to be better in most phases of the game and not be the better player. It is no different then saying that Rasho is better in most phases of the game then Foster is (that's true) but to say that Rasho is the better player would be wrong. He's more complete, but not better. Rasho is a better passer, shooter, and ball handler, but he can't match Foster in rebounding or defense.

As Einstein said, Granger is a far better outside shooter. He's a fantastic shooter and that gets you a long way in the NBA. Marquis is a woeful shooter, so Granger has a major advantage in this category. It's an important aspect of the game obviously, and never once has it been suggested that Marquis is the better player. You just made that up.

jhondog28
02-24-2009, 03:40 PM
i would just like to take this opportunity and tell you all.....I love you all!

Also no one responded to my flu shot question...why do players not get flu shots before the season. i just dont understand that.

count55
02-24-2009, 03:45 PM
i would just like to take this opportunity and tell you all.....I love you all!

Also no one responded to my flu shot question...why do players not get flu shots before the season. i just dont understand that.

People are funny about flu shots, and I think it would be difficult to force someone to get one over their objections.

I never get one, and I've never had any problems. I think it's actually an urban myth, but some people swear up and down that they've gotten sick from flu shots. I don't know if it's true, or if it's psychosomatic, or what, but I know people who flatly refuse to get them. I just never bothered.

jhondog28
02-24-2009, 03:48 PM
People are funny about flu shots, and I think it would be difficult to force someone to get one over their objections.

I never get one, and I've never had any problems. I think it's actually an urban myth, but some people swear up and down that they've gotten sick from flu shots. I don't know if it's true, or if it's psychosomatic, or what, but I know people who flatly refuse to get them. I just never bothered.

I got one this year and my fiance who i live with got the flu and i slpet next to her for a week straight and I never got the flu so I have a feeling when you are paying someone millions of dollars to play basketball you should basically tell them hey listen bud grit your teeth why I give you a flu shot.

DisplacedKnick
02-24-2009, 05:15 PM
I've never gotten a flu shot - I go by the old recommendation that if you're under 50 you don't need 'em (you just have to put up with the flu) and if you're over 50 it's better to get the mild flu from the vaccine than the real thing, particularly if your health isn't so hot.

So when I hit 50 I'll do the same thing I intend to do for the dentist - consider it for the first time in a LONG time.

kester99
02-24-2009, 05:40 PM
I get flu shots...never had a problem or a sniffle. The Army used to require them, and I just got in the habit.

Hey, if the Army can require them, why not an NBA contract? I say that like we know the details here, and we don't. Maybe they had them, and a different strain got to them. It can happen, so I'm told.

count55
02-24-2009, 05:43 PM
I get flu shots...never had a problem or a sniffle. The Army used to require them, and I just got in the habit.

Hey, if the Army can require them, why not an NBA contract? I say that like we know the details here, and we don't. Maybe they had them, and a different strain got to them. It can happen, so I'm told.

Yeah...I was just guessing. I don't have an overwhelming opinion on flu shots one way or the other. I figure **** like that will happen every season, pretty much regardless of what you do.

Will Galen
02-24-2009, 05:58 PM
Seeing as how the flu went though the Pacers roster earlier this year and they obviously got treated for it, this has to be another strain.

count55
02-24-2009, 06:04 PM
I get flu shots...never had a problem or a sniffle. The Army used to require them, and I just got in the habit.

Hey, if the Army can require them, why not an NBA contract? I say that like we know the details here, and we don't. Maybe they had them, and a different strain got to them. It can happen, so I'm told.

Are you suuuuuuuure they were flu shots?

:stewie:

MyFavMartin
02-24-2009, 06:39 PM
Over these past few games, I began wondering, why in the world would we not want to keep Marquis? He was awesome tonight! He defends well and is able to put up points. Bird should try his best to trade Dunleavy for a inside defender/rebounder so Marquis and Rush can have the wings.

I'd be happy if we sent Dun to LA Clippers who would send us Camby or send him to NO for part of a Chandler to Indy trade.

Einstein
02-24-2009, 06:57 PM
On the flu shot discussion...

1.) Some people can actually die from the reaction they have to a flu shot. Its rare, but it happens. I know a guy that was lucky to live after his reaction to a flu shot.

2.) The shot only affects certain strains of the flu virus. It doesn't offer complete immunity (even though they are working on it). The same goes with Tamiflu, a drug you can take to help you get over the flu faster. It, too, only works on like 50% of the Influenza type A viruses.

3.) It is true there are many people who do develop low-grade flu symptoms from a flu shot. Its definitely not full-scale flu, and not everybody gets this, but its documented that these symptoms can occur from the shot.

I think its for these reasons that only high risk groups are recommended to get the shot.

kester99
02-24-2009, 07:03 PM
Are you suuuuuuuure they were flu shots?

:stewie:

Yes, I am, and furthermore, they were 'special' flu shots, which helped the sergeant major 'keep track of us.' So I felt doubly protected.

PaceBalls
02-24-2009, 08:37 PM
On the flu shot discussion...

1.) Some people can actually die from the reaction they have to a flu shot. Its rare, but it happens. I know a guy that was lucky to live after his reaction to a flu shot.

2.) The shot only affects certain strains of the flu virus. It doesn't offer complete immunity (even though they are working on it). The same goes with Tamiflu, a drug you can take to help you get over the flu faster. It, too, only works on like 50% of the Influenza type A viruses.

3.) It is true there are many people who do develop low-grade flu symptoms from a flu shot. Its definitely not full-scale flu, and not everybody gets this, but its documented that these symptoms can occur from the shot.

I think its for these reasons that only high risk groups are recommended to get the shot.

Yeah I watched this cool documentary about flu shots. They plan ahead by looking at which strains are going around Asia which, I guess, is where they feel most of the strains originate. The virus can mutate or they may have chosen the wrong strain that will spread. So you are really in a crap shoot with the flu shot.

duke dynamite
02-25-2009, 05:42 PM
The word "flu" is funny.