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OakMoses
02-23-2009, 10:00 AM
I know this topic ruined the game thread after a game that should have made us feel pretty darn good about the Pacers. I don't want this thread to be about whether or not Murphy steals rebounds. Rather, I have a question about tactics that I'd like some perspective on.

I've often thought this season that there seems to be a conspiracy or at least some sort of plan to allow Troy to get the vast majority, if not all, of the uncontested defensive rebounds. Here's my question: Is it possible that this is a dictate from O'Brien? We know that O'Brien wants the team to push the ball after both made and missed baskets. Would a coach ever say something like, "TJ, Jarret, let Troy get the rebound. You guys just bust your but up the court for an outlet pass so we can get it up the court quicker." Another benefit of this is that it puts Troy in good position to be the trailer and get an open three point shot.

Am I overthinking this or is it a possibility?

BobbyMac
02-23-2009, 10:06 AM
You guys are funny....if it was anyone else putting up these numbers you would be celebrating...instead you look hard to find ways to validate opinions you formed right after he was traded to the Pacers....give it up!!!

Country Boy
02-23-2009, 10:16 AM
I would love to hear tbird's view on this topic, with his insight and expertise, he could put this topic behind us once and for all.

We want tbird, we want tbird,.............!

Shade
02-23-2009, 10:21 AM
I know this topic ruined the game thread after a game that should have made us feel pretty darn good about the Pacers. I don't want this thread to be about whether or not Murphy steals rebounds. Rather, I have a question about tactics that I'd like some perspective on.

I've often thought this season that there seems to be a conspiracy or at least some sort of plan to allow Troy to get the vast majority, if not all, of the uncontested defensive rebounds. Here's my question: Is it possible that this is a dictate from O'Brien? We know that O'Brien wants the team to push the ball after both made and missed baskets. Would a coach ever say something like, "TJ, Jarret, let Troy get the rebound. You guys just bust your but up the court for an outlet pass so we can get it up the court quicker." Another benefit of this is that it puts Troy in good position to be the trailer and get an open three point shot.

Am I overthinking this or is it a possibility?

Murphy did the same thing at Golden State. Of course, they play the same up-tempo offensive style that the Pacers do, so who knows.

Anyway, there is no conspiracy here. Murph is just a hard worker on the boards. His height advantage over most of his teammates is going to lead to him "stealing" some rebounds from time to time.

Speed
02-23-2009, 10:31 AM
You guys are funny....if it was anyone else putting up these numbers you would be celebrating...instead you look hard to find ways to validate opinions you formed right after he was traded to the Pacers....give it up!!!

Nope, almost everyone on here likes him or at least like his contributions to the team this year. This is an observation of something that he tends to do.

Speed
02-23-2009, 10:34 AM
On a side note: This board is full of people who tried to root for David Freaking Harrison, why would we look for bad things, so hard, if it wasn't kinda obvious.

Dukins
02-23-2009, 10:55 AM
Murphy did the same thing at Golden State. Of course, they play the same up-tempo offensive style that the Pacers do, so who knows.

Anyway, there is no conspiracy here. Murph is just a hard worker on the boards. His height advantage over most of his teammates is going to lead to him "stealing" some rebounds from time to time.


As mentioned ^^^^^ He was a good rebounder in GS. Its no conspiracy he is just in position to get the rebounder. Remember he is a POWER FORWARD. I thought that was the job of pf was to get rebounds. It just so happens after he pulls the boards, he outlets to the guards.

I think its a conspiracy that Troy Murphy is playing very well and the people that throws him under the bus, really doesnt have anything to say now. Well that he still doesnt play good defense. LOL.

Leave him alone he is playing well. Im happy to see him getting the boards.

Speed
02-23-2009, 11:01 AM
Do we think Troy is the answer at the PF spot for the Pacers with the year he has had?

Country Boy
02-23-2009, 11:07 AM
Do we think Troy is the answer at the PF spot for the Pacers with the year he has had?



I do, why the hell not?

Speed
02-23-2009, 11:11 AM
Good question, defensively

55+3 < 32

but I'd be willing to consider an argument that says otherwise.

-----

You erased it, I liked the question.

55+3=32+45 ?

naptownmenace
02-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Since no one has really stayed on the topic of this thread, I'll give it a shot. ;)

I really do think that the focus on rebounding from Murphy has come with the blessing if not outright encouragement from coach O'Brien.

It sort of reminds me of the way Mutombo would grab the rebound and start the break, passing it to Iverson, Snow, or McKie. The role of everyone else on the squad was to box out so Deke could grab the rebound. Who was Larry Brown's assistant at the time? IIRC, it was Dick Harter.

So yes, I think it's the way the team has been designed. Box out your man and let Murph clean the glass. IMO, it works pretty well because we're one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA and Murphy is having a career year. It's a good way to play to one of your player's strengths.

Have the Pacers (NBA era) ever had a player average this many rebounds for a season?

OakMoses
02-23-2009, 11:17 AM
I do, why the hell not?

I like Troy, but there are two things he can't do that I want a PF to be able to do, and they're related which is the big problem for me.

He needs to be able to guard smaller, perimeter-oriented PF's, and he needs to be able to punish smaller players who try and guard him. Right now, Murphy can't do either of these things.

You can't reasonably expect Murphy to guard a guy like Jamison or Rashard Lewis or Shawn Marion, even Tyrus Thomas has good games with Murphy guarding him.

Conversely, when we're playing against teams with this type of PF, Murphy doesn't post these guys up. In that situation, he becomes a liability on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.

During the Cleveland game right before the break, Mike Brown very smartly put Wally Sczerbiak, a SG/SF who's never been considered a good defender, on Murphy. Murphy was completely unable to take advantage of this matchup and after a few minutes, O'Brien was forced to play smallball and move Murph to center.

I like Murph. I think he's had a great season for the Pacers, but his inability to do these two things will always make me wish we had a different player as our primary PF.

Then there's his contract, but we all know about that.

WetBob
02-23-2009, 11:18 AM
I do, why the hell not?

This coming from the guy who claimed many of us need a "refresher course in basketball?"

One word, [removed] DEFENSE.

Name-calling is unnecessary. - Shade

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 11:19 AM
In the words of Steve Winwood:

"Roll with it, Baby!"

count55
02-23-2009, 11:27 AM
Since no one has really stayed on the topic of this thread, I'll give it a shot. ;)

I really do think that the focus on rebounding from Murphy has come with the blessing if not outright encouragement from coach O'Brien.

It sort of reminds me of the way Mutombo would grab the rebound and start the break, passing it to Iverson, Snow, or McKie. The role of everyone else on the squad was to box out so Deke could grab the rebound. Who was Larry Brown's assistant at the time? IIRC, it was Dick Harter.

So yes, I think it's the way the team has been designed. Box out your man and let Murph clean the glass. IMO, it works pretty well because we're one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA and Murphy is having a career year. It's a good way to play to one of your player's strengths.

Have the Pacers (NBA era) ever had a player average this many rebounds for a season?

It's possible that he has been directed to go after every rebound, though it's also possible he might occasionally do it with a little too much gusto.

No one in the NBA era has averaged more RPG than Troy is right now. Only six others have averaged 10+, with Dale's 10.9 being the current team record. Clark Kellogg averaged 10.6, Dan Roundfield averaged 10.2, and JO did it three times in a row from 2002 to 2004.

Speed
02-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I like Troy, but there are two things he can't do that I want a PF to be able to do, and they're related which is the big problem for me.

He needs to be able to guard smaller, perimeter-oriented PF's, and he needs to be able to punish smaller players who try and guard him. Right now, Murphy can't do either of these things.

You can't reasonably expect Murphy to guard a guy like Jamison or Rashard Lewis or Shawn Marion, even Tyrus Thomas has good games with Murphy guarding him.

Conversely, when we're playing against teams with this type of PF, Murphy doesn't post these guys up. In that situation, he becomes a liability on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.

During the Cleveland game right before the break, Mike Brown very smartly put Wally Sczerbiak, a SG/SF who's never been considered a good defender, on Murphy. Murphy was completely unable to take advantage of this matchup and after a few minutes, O'Brien was forced to play smallball and move Murph to center.

I like Murph. I think he's had a great season for the Pacers, but his inability to do these two things will always make me wish we had a different player as our primary PF.

Then there's his contract, but we all know about that.

Yep. Well put.

Speed
02-23-2009, 11:47 AM
This coming from the guy who claimed many of us need a "refresher course in basketball?"

One word, [removed] DEFENSE.

Name-calling is unnecessary. - Shade

Yep, the biggest thing for this team is to have players who can guard their positions effectively. See the Mellifluous post, excellent.

OakMoses
02-23-2009, 04:47 PM
I just talked to one of the basketball coaches at the school where I work. He said it's pretty common for a coach to direct one player to rebound and the others to move down the court for an outlet pass. He said it's especially common if you plan on using the rebounder as a trailer.

My guess is that O'Brien wants Murphy to get the rebound and then outlet it to Ford or Jack so they can push it up. Then Murphy trails and runs to his 3 point spot. If this is the case, then Murphy's just doing what O'Brien wants him to (albeit a bit overzealously at times).

dohman
02-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Murphy is having a AWESOME season and I am one person that thinks he could be our long term option if he keeps this type of play up. If we keep a player like him then we need a athletic hard nosed center which hopefully roy will grow into.

speakout4
02-23-2009, 07:16 PM
I would be happy to have a more athletic PF (read Amare, Garnett, Duncan or JO) who does many things Troy doesn't do as well but that said he is doing a fairly decent job for the Pacers and at the very least should be given his due. He is performing at a level most fans did not expect to see. I guess people can't believe his numbers.

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Murphy is having a AWESOME season and I am one person that thinks he could be our long term option if he keeps this type of play up. If we keep a player like him then we need a athletic hard nosed center which hopefully roy will grow into.
+1

switch
02-24-2009, 11:48 AM
Another benefit of this is that it puts Troy in good position to be the trailer and get an open three point shot.

Am I overthinking this or is it a possibility?

That was my first thought after reading the initial post. It makes sense to have Murphy initiate the offense at the other end so he can be the trailor and hit open threes from the top of the arch, like he often does. It is definately a possibility that coaches planned this; if it's not just a coincidence that troy get that many rebounds, then props to O'Brian for thinking this up.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 12:01 AM
As mentioned ^^^^^ He was a good rebounder in GS. Its no conspiracy he is just in position to get the rebounder. Remember he is a POWER FORWARD. I thought that was the job of pf was to get rebounds. It just so happens after he pulls the boards, he outlets to the guards.

I think its a conspiracy that Troy Murphy is playing very well and the people that throws him under the bus, really doesnt have anything to say now. Well that he still doesnt play good defense. LOL.

Leave him alone he is playing well. Im happy to see him getting the boards.
He is one of the WORST top 50 rebounders in terms of Offensive boards to Defensive boards as I explained in detail in a recent thread. You have a few other guys like Lebron, Durant and I forget who else who are in the park of Troy's OFF/DEF ratio, and those other guys do much more critical things than rebound.

NO OTHER REBOUND SPECIALIST is remotely close to Troy's out of balance OFF/DEF ratio. Not even close. Foster is much more in line with what true PF rebound aces do statistically.


There is only 1 defense for Troy at all here and that's the question of outlet style. It's possible that the structure is meant to have Troy be the only guy at the defensive rim while everyone else takes off. The problem is that this often doesn't naturally occur and yet Troy still pulls the ball away from a teammates hands, and occasionally this has even led to the team losing the ball outright.


I thought we saw exactly the issue vs the Knicks. Troy had this monster game, and yet several times down the stretch when a ball was truly up for grabs Troy got owned by David Lee, even on the DEF boards. He couldn't stop their putbacks and he struggled at times to get his own 2nd chances.

And the final, ugly numbers are 21 boards but a horrible 18 to 3 ratio. Lee's modest 13 is nothing on paper, but he pulled 4 on offense. Even NATE ROBINSON had more offensive boards than Murphy.


I mean maybe some of you aren't really thinking about this, but Troy's ratio is insanely out of whack, not just a little off.

I'm almost embarrassed to put up the next stat. OFF to DEF ratio. The number is how many offensive boards you pull for every defensive board you pull.

.65 Foster
.62 Dale
.53 McKey
.52 Tony
.46 Tank
.41 Rik
.37 JO
.36 Detlef
....and then there's Maude

.20 Troy (08-09)


You know when you are following your man to the rim hoping for a miss you do have the chance to come leaping in for the rebound. I'm just saying. These numbers are over a huge sample size, the trend is there just as the 18 to 3 game he just had indicates.

I mean seriously, how many games have you watched and thought "man, Troy is owning the glass, he's dominating these other guys"? I've seen Jeff have those nights, though in his case it's more hustle than power. But he has nights where he frustrates the other team with how many tough boards he steals away.

Have we really had that game from Troy where play after play he was pulling the ball out of their hands, more than his teammates own hands?

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 12:19 AM
And BTW, if he's getting the uncontested misses for the outlet chance I say this...what outlet chance? The rebound is uncontested which means they got back instead of crashing the boards.

How many times does Troy do a Kevin Love, get the DEF board with the opponent crashing so that he can kick it out for a break the other way? Honestly I don't think we are seeing that. I think we are seeing plenty of no-one-around rebounds that just start a normal dribble up possession. Whoop de doo.


One other thing - Troy pulled 5 defensive boards on Knicks FT misses alone.

Pacersfan46
02-25-2009, 12:24 AM
Too much nitpicking. Seriously.

He's getting rebounds, consistently. That's a good thing in my book.

As for your numbers Seth, the further down the list you get, the more you get good shooters on that list. I think Troy's lack of offensive boards has more to do with him patrolling around the 3 point line than it does anything. On offense he's out around the perimeter, but on defense he goes where most PF's go, because that's where his man will go, around the rim.

The only exception on that list out of whack with my theory is McKey but he only averaged 4-5 rebounds a game most years anyway. So a minimal amount of offensive boards will throw the ratio out of wack in favor of your attempt to knock Troy Murphy.

**EDIT** - Wow, McKey isn't much of an exception either. My memory served me wrong on that one. He only shot 600 career 3 pointers, Murphy is going to shoot over 300, just this year.

-- Steve --

Pacersfan46
02-25-2009, 12:41 AM
In fact, look at this rebounding list from NBA.com. Look at all the names with less offensive boards than Murphy (less than 100, easy to spot).

You can easily see it's a trend of guys who shoot the 3 ball on offense.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22008&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

-- Steve --

Noodle
02-25-2009, 12:50 AM
Nap, didn't you read that debacle of a post game thread. Murphy is also a much better outside shooter than those guys. Murphy plays the three point line and the high post mostly, so your research was very interesting but it is resoundingly flawed.

We as people must be more diplomatic. Lots of name calling and wild assumptions. Not necessarily in this thread, but all threads in general(recent Murphy topics for instance). I am still relatively new around here and you can find material in my previous posts in which I could be found guilty of the same antics. I learned we are all friends here. Know that most times your rhetoric will not usually render another person's opinion, and name calling certainly will not validate your case. I think all of us new guys need to keep this a a reminder when we post a comment. Also, regular guys do not need to act like elitist when a new guy retaliates with ignorance. Just ignore them it makes a better read.

Sorry, wasn't trying to play administrator, just think we have been harsh lately towards each other. Again, this thread isn't so bad; it just reminds me of recent mishaps.

duke dynamite
02-25-2009, 12:54 AM
Nap, didn't you read that debacle of a post game thread. Murphy is also a much better outside shooter than those guys. Murphy plays the three point line and the high post mostly, so your research was very interesting but it is resoundingly flawed.

We as people must be more diplomatic. Lots of name calling and wild assumptions. Not necessarily in this thread, but all threads in general(recent Murphy topics for instance). I am still relatively new around here and you can find material in my previous posts in which I could be found guilty of the same antics. I learned we are all friends here. Know that most times your rhetoric will not usually render another person's opinion, and name calling certainly will not validate your case. I think all of us new guys need to keep this a a reminder when we post a comment. Also, regular guys do not need to act like elitist when a new guy retaliates with ignorance. Just ignore them it makes a better read.

Sorry, wasn't trying to play administrator, just think we have been harsh lately towards each other. Again, this thread isn't so bad; it just reminds me of recent mishaps.
I agree with you, but I also agree with this:


Good Lord I miss the "Ignore This Thread" feature. And before someone says "just don't read it" that's like driving by a wreck and not looking.

Noodle
02-25-2009, 07:00 AM
True, but like someone else said it's like trying to pass a car accident without looking.

Country Boy
02-25-2009, 07:29 AM
One would think that Murph was worthless according to some on this board.

Shaq 2.3 OR
Garnett 1.4OR
Duncan 2.7OR

Murph 2.0 OR

Wow, Murph you slackard. You would think that the top rebounders were pulling down at least 50 OR per game with some of the negative rhetoric against Murph.

WetBob
02-25-2009, 08:12 PM
With 2:56 left in the 2nd quarter, Murphy stole a missed free throw by Conley away from Quisy when there was no opposing player going for it.

Does he get other rebounds? Sure, but those of you that have said unequivocally that he doesn't get cheap rebounds or steal them away from teammates, there is an exact example.

BlueNGold
02-25-2009, 08:14 PM
There are some things about Troy's game that are very good. He can shoot the ball and rebound better than most PF's. He's an awful lot like Dirk but he's a better rebounder.

...but the best part of his game is his ability to post-up, protect the paint with his brute strength, block shots and defend...his length and quickness on help defense is amazing...something critical for any team that wants to compete in the playoffs.

WetBob
02-25-2009, 08:15 PM
...but the best part of his game is his ability to post-up, protect the paint, block shots and defend...his length and quickness on help defense is amazing...something critical for any team that wants to compete in the playoffs.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

BlueNGold
02-25-2009, 08:17 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself.

You missed my edit about his brute strength. One of the more physical PF's in the league, ya know...;)

WetBob
02-25-2009, 08:24 PM
You missed my edit about his brute strength. One of the more physical PF's in the league, ya know...;)

Dwight Howard wets himself at the thought of a matchup with Murph.

BlueNGold
02-25-2009, 08:39 PM
Dwight Howard wets himself at the thought of a matchup with Murph.

Yes, Troy puts a lot of fear in the competition. It's so difficult to score on him. He's simply too long and quick off his feet for anyone to get anything in the paint.

I know, I know...Dwight wishes he could board and dominate the paint like Troy. The intimidation factor alone that Troy brings to the floor may be his very best quality. He just shuts teams down in the 4th quarter right when his perimeter shot is at its freshest. Dude reminds me of a young Sheed.

Country Boy
02-25-2009, 10:21 PM
Two comedians I see.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 11:55 PM
Well in fairness to Troy I actually thought this was one of his better rebounding games, far better than the NY game. His first board tonight was a shot he defended well going to the rim, and then a strongly contested defensive board with tons of contact.

In my book that goes down much higher than the one he took from Quis. I think that's exactly what a lot of us are getting at.

A few years ago after a Denver game where Foster loaded up on boards, I, a big Foster fan btw, did a "when is 18 rebounds not 18 rebounds" post. Might not of been 18, but you get the point. In Jeff's case we all can guess how that went. It was a night that I went back via Tivo and accounted for every board he had, and there were some that got tipped by others right to him and several of those missed putback extra rebounds.

Unfortunately the Jeff bashers ran with that and used it as some par for course thing with Jeff. The truth was Jeff was in a huge slump that month and was shooting something like 35%. Because of this he was creating 2nd boards and wasting the first ones he was getting. I was simply trying to tone down the "Jeff was a beast" postings at the time because it was pretty tough to resolve that opinion with the team struggling and lack of feeling true boards dominance.

With Jeff he is a good rebounder and normally puts back a decent amount of shots. He's not a good FG% guy by PF putback types, but he's a lot better than that horrible month of scoring had him.

So that's what we have with Troy. It's not that Troy is worthless, it's just that what I saw Quis do tonight was worth more than what Troy did vs NY, just as an example. I'm as big a stat guy as you'll find, but there are so many caveats and flaws and none more than with the big three - PTS, REB, AST.



Bill Simmons had Hollinger on the podcast the other day and it was brilliant, right in the face of you stats bashers. I say this because Bill and John were explicitly talking about the gaping holes in current stats. Hollinger admits his PER has its limitations and both of them hate the utter lack of quality defensive stat keeping.

For this thread one applicable topic was the idea of the "super assist" which could apply to rebounds as well. They both agreed that passing back on a kickout for the jumper assist was nothing compared to the drive and dish for a dunk inside. Not all assists are even close to being the same level of created advantage. And not all rebounds are either.

Frankly I almost think you shouldn't even count rebounds that are utterly uncontested. I might have to Tivo a game and score it up like that, maybe also split assists into jumpers, at the rim, and led to foul/FTs (which aren't even counted of course).

So stats freaks can actually be more in tune with how a game is recorded on paper than the average basic box score fan, rather than "lost in the stats". A guy like Hollinger (and Simmons) knows what he sees and is trying to find new and better ways to quantify and record it.

This Murphy rebound thing is a prime example of that dilemma.


ps - I don't hate Murphy, but watching Marc Gasol punish him all night (Rasho was even worse though) made a clear point that the box score wasn't representing just how lopsided that battle was most of the night and what an advantage it was giving Memphis.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2009, 12:15 AM
Saying "sure but he's always on the perimeter" doesn't exactly validate Troy as a rebounding impact PF you know. If a majority of his boards are uncontested misses and FTs then it's not the same as a guy working at the rim in traffic.

And in the "well, you asked for it" category
Sam Perkins .44 OFF/DEF ratio

But wait, he wasn't always a 3pt guy. In 93-94 he jumped to 270 attempts and had 4 more years of 343, 363, 309, 222 attempts. His OFF/DEF ratio during this span of years was .36, still way above Troy's .20

He came to the Pacers as a 3pt specialist only, was paid far less than Troy, and wasn't really expected to be some monster on the glass or defense. He was a sloth by this point who's goal was to stand on the arc and use his fouls up on defense.

His PT was down so his 3pt attempts were too, but his 2nd year in Indy he did put up 218. His OFF/DEF ratio was .35, .28, and .24 in his final, clearly ready to retire season. These are all also better than Troy right now.

So enough. This disparity is moving into all-time worst among guys who get more than just a tiny sample space of boards. This is into Manute Bol just before he flopped out of the NBA forever level.

ReginaldWayne
02-26-2009, 12:21 AM
Well in fairness to Troy I actually thought this was one of his better rebounding games, far better than the NY game. His first board tonight was a shot he defended well going to the rim, and then a strongly contested defensive board with tons of contact.

In my book that goes down much higher than the one he took from Quis. I think that's exactly what a lot of us are getting at.

A few years ago after a Denver game where Foster loaded up on boards, I, a big Foster fan btw, did a "when is 18 rebounds not 18 rebounds" post. Might not of been 18, but you get the point. In Jeff's case we all can guess how that went. It was a night that I went back via Tivo and accounted for every board he had, and there were some that got tipped by others right to him and several of those missed putback extra rebounds.

Unfortunately the Jeff bashers ran with that and used it as some par for course thing with Jeff. The truth was Jeff was in a huge slump that month and was shooting something like 35%. Because of this he was creating 2nd boards and wasting the first ones he was getting. I was simply trying to tone down the "Jeff was a beast" postings at the time because it was pretty tough to resolve that opinion with the team struggling and lack of feeling true boards dominance.

With Jeff he is a good rebounder and normally puts back a decent amount of shots. He's not a good FG% guy by PF putback types, but he's a lot better than that horrible month of scoring had him.

So that's what we have with Troy. It's not that Troy is worthless, it's just that what I saw Quis do tonight was worth more than what Troy did vs NY, just as an example. I'm as big a stat guy as you'll find, but there are so many caveats and flaws and none more than with the big three - PTS, REB, AST.



Bill Simmons had Hollinger on the podcast the other day and it was brilliant, right in the face of you stats bashers. I say this because Bill and John were explicitly talking about the gaping holes in current stats. Hollinger admits his PER has its limitations and both of them hate the utter lack of quality defensive stat keeping.

For this thread one applicable topic was the idea of the "super assist" which could apply to rebounds as well. They both agreed that passing back on a kickout for the jumper assist was nothing compared to the drive and dish for a dunk inside. Not all assists are even close to being the same level of created advantage. And not all rebounds are either.

Frankly I almost think you shouldn't even count rebounds that are utterly uncontested. I might have to Tivo a game and score it up like that, maybe also split assists into jumpers, at the rim, and led to foul/FTs (which aren't even counted of course).

So stats freaks can actually be more in tune with how a game is recorded on paper than the average basic box score fan, rather than "lost in the stats". A guy like Hollinger (and Simmons) knows what he sees and is trying to find new and better ways to quantify and record it.

This Murphy rebound thing is a prime example of that dilemma.


ps - I don't hate Murphy, but watching Marc Gasol punish him all night (Rasho was even worse though) made a clear point that the box score wasn't representing just how lopsided that battle was most of the night and what an advantage it was giving Memphis.

Thats just it though, its just a stat, a recording. For those that base success, importance, or meaning of a person to their respective team based on a stat, is a mistake. A person can not judge the importance or value of a player based on looking at a boxscore, or even in in depth statistics. Using stats as a reference is alright, but you cant base everything on stats.

The point is the only way to see the value a player has on his team, is to watch him. Scottie Pippen for example, stat stuffer, you look at his stats and you can see why some people do say hes a top 50 nba player. But if you watch him, he was simply horrific in the finals every year. Really contributed little in each final series. Six rings regardless, but i think if you put, say, Shawn Marion in his prime years on that bulls team, he has 6 rings aswell, no question about it.

Im pretty much all over the place in this post but what happens off the ball during games is jsut as important as what happens on the ball(stats).

Pacersfan46
02-26-2009, 02:50 AM
Saying "sure but he's always on the perimeter" doesn't exactly validate Troy as a rebounding impact PF you know. If a majority of his boards are uncontested misses and FTs then it's not the same as a guy working at the rim in traffic.

And in the "well, you asked for it" category
Sam Perkins .44 OFF/DEF ratio

But wait, he wasn't always a 3pt guy. In 93-94 he jumped to 270 attempts and had 4 more years of 343, 363, 309, 222 attempts. His OFF/DEF ratio during this span of years was .36, still way above Troy's .20

He came to the Pacers as a 3pt specialist only, was paid far less than Troy, and wasn't really expected to be some monster on the glass or defense. He was a sloth by this point who's goal was to stand on the arc and use his fouls up on defense.

His PT was down so his 3pt attempts were too, but his 2nd year in Indy he did put up 218. His OFF/DEF ratio was .35, .28, and .24 in his final, clearly ready to retire season. These are all also better than Troy right now.

So enough. This disparity is moving into all-time worst among guys who get more than just a tiny sample space of boards. This is into Manute Bol just before he flopped out of the NBA forever level.

Omg ... okay Seth. All the over the top sarcasm and attitude is not needed because you found ONE exception. Great job. I'm sorry, you're reaching in this incredible nitpicking you're trying to pull off. Nowitzki's ratio .... is .136. Troy's this year is .203 .... look I found ONE exception too! I guess I'm right now, so BOO-YAH.

You're really reading FAR FAR FAR too much into a random stat you decided to invent to make a point that nobody besides fans trying too hard to nitpick something would truly care about. Even then, I'm going to say 99% of people are going to be hard pressed to care. Do you think Dallas fans sit around concerned about Dirks off/def rebounding ratio? I'm going to say, probably not.

Normally I find myself agreeing with you quite often and all but this "well you ask for it" category crap and over the top concern with what type of rebounds he's getting is silly.

-- Steve --

Speed
02-26-2009, 05:44 AM
Great Points Seth. It makes sense. I believe the Big Smooth comparison is valid. I don't think imperically, along with the stats, that Troy naturally gets to the offensive boards as well as many. Non injured Foster is a prime example that makes it stand out, Non injured Jeff is one of the best in the league going to the offensive boards.

In all fairness, otherwise, Troy really did have some nice defensive helps last night.

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 10:39 AM
The point is the only way to see the value a player has on his team, is to watch him.

I completely agree with what you're saying. However, it plays right into the idea of lowering Murphy's value. I often watch games and think "Troy's really getting outplayed by Luis Scola, David Lee, Carl Landry, Marc Gasol, etc." Then I look at the box score and see that Troy had a statistically superior game to the guy I saw outplay him.

I should say, however, that I love the way Troy is playing on offense lately. When he's aggressive about driving and doing more than just shooting 3's, he's a very good offensive player.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2009, 11:26 AM
I find it ironical that some can't grasp the concept that for every rebound Murph gets, whether it's a "D" or "O" rebound, is another Pacer possession and an opportunity to score. Just how hard is that to understand?

In previous seasons, even this season, posters have complained he's not being agressive and driving to the basket. I made the statement after the NY game he did just that, and again against Memphis he did just that. His 3 point shot wasn't falling, he was 1-6 in each of the last 2 games, and he drove to the basket. His mid-range shooting game has been better of late as well, yet there are those who want to chastize his rebounding when he's one of the best this season. What was that 35 double double games last night? Only Howard and Lee have more if my memory serves me correctly. B/c it's Murphy and the possible tainting of some rebounds he gets by others, it's not a big feat the accomplishments Murphy has and is producing. Geez, some people on here would be whining about Garnett or Duncan if they were a Pacer. Why can't you just be happy Murphy is producing and thus making his contract not such an albatross? Be happy for the season he's having. Just remember there have't been a lot of things this season to be happy about! Give the man credit for his accomplishments, and QUIT NIT-PICKING HIM TO DEATH!

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 11:40 AM
I find it ironical that some can't grasp the concept that for every rebound Murph gets, whether it's a "D" or "O" rebound, is another Pacer possession and an opportunity to score. Just how hard is that to understand?


That's not hard at all to understand. The point is that we are trying to differentiate between the rebounds Murphy gets and the rebounds an average NBA PF would get in the same situation.

Country Boy
02-26-2009, 11:48 AM
That's not hard at all to understand. The point is that we are trying to differentiate between the rebounds Murphy gets and the rebounds an average NBA PF would get in the same situation.

yeah right. To differentiate you would actually have to go through tapes of other PFs and look at each rebound that they got and put them under the same microscope that some here have done to Murph. Do you honestly believe that other PFs don't get some cheap rebounds? I hope not.

count55
02-26-2009, 01:40 PM
Saying "sure but he's always on the perimeter" doesn't exactly validate Troy as a rebounding impact PF you know. If a majority of his boards are uncontested misses and FTs then it's not the same as a guy working at the rim in traffic.

And in the "well, you asked for it" category
Sam Perkins .44 OFF/DEF ratio

But wait, he wasn't always a 3pt guy. In 93-94 he jumped to 270 attempts and had 4 more years of 343, 363, 309, 222 attempts. His OFF/DEF ratio during this span of years was .36, still way above Troy's .20

He came to the Pacers as a 3pt specialist only, was paid far less than Troy, and wasn't really expected to be some monster on the glass or defense. He was a sloth by this point who's goal was to stand on the arc and use his fouls up on defense.

His PT was down so his 3pt attempts were too, but his 2nd year in Indy he did put up 218. His OFF/DEF ratio was .35, .28, and .24 in his final, clearly ready to retire season. These are all also better than Troy right now.

So enough. This disparity is moving into all-time worst among guys who get more than just a tiny sample space of boards. This is into Manute Bol just before he flopped out of the NBA forever level.

Of course, this just says that Perkins was a more balanced rebounder than Troy is, and nothing else.

Murphy's Offensive Rebounds per minute are higher than Perkins' were at any point during the Seattle or Indy days. His ORB% of 6.5 is higher than Sam's during that time frame, with the exception of Sam's first year in Seattle. By virtually every metric, Troy is a more prolific and more effective offensive rebounder than the comparable "perimeter Big Smooth."

The reason that the ratio is so out of whack isn't because Troy doesn't get offensive rebounds (he's in the 72nd percentile for players with more than 20 minutes per game), it's because his defensive rebound numbers are so insanely high.

Foster is a mirror image. His ratio is 0.76, and he's 3rd in Off Rebounds per minute.

It seems reasonable to me that the fact that Troy takes 47% of his shots from beyond the arc would reduce his opportunities at offensive rebounds.

Again, I don't get this whole thing. Troy is certainly flawed and overpaid. However, I can rattle off a number of worse contracts the Pacers have had (Tinsley, Bender, Croshere, arguably JO and Jalen). If the premise is that he's not as good as Dale Davis, well, duh.

He is what he is. I have not seen him once coast through a game. Does he get beaten? Yup. Do I wish we had a more traditional PF? Yup. However, I still believe this is a guy who just goes out and gives the team what he has. He tries on defense, but struggles to overcome his physical shortcomings.

The way I look at it is that he knows he can rebound, and he knows he can shoot three's. If he figures by doing those things, that's how he can help the team most, great. Troy does "steal" rebounds from time to time. While I'm sure his teammates occasionally find it irritating, it doesn't seem to be incredibly corrosive. In the litany of "bad teammate acts" committed by Pacers since 2000, this would strike me as being pretty far down on the list.

OakMoses
02-26-2009, 01:44 PM
Again, I don't get this whole thing. Troy is certainly flawed and overpaid. However, I can rattle off a number of worse contracts the Pacers have had (Tinsley, Bender, Croshere, arguably JO and Jalen). If the premise is that he's not as good as Dale Davis, well, duh.

He is what he is. I have not seen him once coast through a game. Does he get beaten? Yup. Do I wish we had a more traditional PF? Yup. However, I still believe this is a guy who just goes out and gives the team what he has. He tries on defense, but struggles to overcome his physical shortcomings.

The way I look at it is that he knows he can rebound, and he knows he can shoot three's. If he figures by doing those things, that's how he can help the team most, great. Troy does "steal" rebounds from time to time. While I'm sure his teammates occasionally find it irritating, it doesn't seem to be incredibly corrosive. In the litany of "bad teammate acts" committed by Pacers since 2000, this would strike me as being pretty far down on the list.

I just thought that this bore repeating.

Cherokee
02-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Last night in the first quarter, JJ ran in front of Murphy and grabbed a rebound away from him. Do we have a thread today about how many rebounds JJ steals? No, thankfully. This is non-topic that a few people who do not like Murphy or his contract love to talk about. If it weren't for missed FT rebounds, JO would have averaged about 4.5-5 rpg at most. It's part of the game that happens in every game. IMO Murphy does a pretty good job hitting the outlet man, so I'm quite comfortable with him getting the rebound.