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View Full Version : Detroit out of the Playoffs?



jhondog28
02-23-2009, 10:56 AM
Wow that Iverson thing seems to have really hurt them. I did not realize how far they have fallen in the satndings until I saw the standings this morning. Are they going to completely fall out of the playoffs all together. Right now they are .500 and they have lost 6 straight. What is going on Kstat? Is Iverson just not the fit they were looking for? And if they do contuie to lose who takes the last spot?

Shade
02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
To be fair, I think it's more Curry than Iverson.

OakMoses
02-23-2009, 11:35 AM
Wow that Iverson thing seems to have really hurt them. I did not realize how far they have fallen in the satndings until I saw the standings this morning. Are they going to completely fall out of the playoffs all together. Right now they are .500 and they have lost 6 straight. What is going on Kstat? Is Iverson just not the fit they were looking for? And if they do contuie to lose who takes the last spot?

My gut says that Chicago and New York could easily move up and take Detroit's and Milwaukee's playoff spots.

All that being said, I'd be very, very nervous to play Detroit in the first round of the playoffs if I were Cleveland, Orlando, or Boston.

naptownmenace
02-23-2009, 11:51 AM
Curry is not a good coach which makes the impact of losing Billups via trade much greater because he was the coach on the floor. He makes the players around him better and he's a very good perimeter defender. Billups just makes good decisions with the ball - better decisions than Stuckey or AI - and that's what the Pistons are missing more than anything else.

I don't really think Iverson is all of the problem but it's obvious that he's not a good fit. He's basically the same player as Rip Hamilton with a worse shooting percentage and less defense.

I still think they'll make the playoffs but doubt that they'll advance past the first round.
At least AI's a FA at the end of the season and the Pistons will create a little cap space.

RamBo_Lamar
02-23-2009, 12:45 PM
The "vaunted" Pistons are finally taking a nose-dive.....

GOOD :laugh:



Here's to their demise being painful and long lasting.

:buddies:



May they rot.

Will Galen
02-23-2009, 01:04 PM
To be fair, I think it's more Curry than Iverson.

Dumars isn't doing anything about it and that leads me to believe he's doing a Pat Riley and letting the team take a nose dive, but only for a year.

Thus the Pistons get a high draft pick and a lot of cap room for next year, and more than likely a new coach.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 01:28 PM
Dumars isn't doing anything about it and that leads me to believe he's doing a Pat Riley and letting the team take a nose dive, but only for a year.

Thus the Pistons get a high draft pick and a lot of cap room for next year, and more than likely a new coach.

Yep.

This team is going down in flames. The good thing is I don't need to care about it one bit, because every problem child on this team will be gone this summer.

Dumars knows this too, which is why I can see him using his ammunition to clean up in free agency and maybe land another lottery pick.

My frustration boiled over long ago when we were 23-15 when I said that we were going to finish below .500 and out of the playoffs if the team was not changed. Watching it unfold doesn't surprise me in the least.

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Yep.

This team is going down in flames. The good thing is I don't need to care about it one bit, because every problem child on this team will be gone this summer.
Including the coach? j/w

Kstat
02-23-2009, 01:37 PM
Including the coach? j/w

There are future hall of fame coaches in the NBA that would not survive a season like this. Curry sure as hell won't.

While I find him totally inept, I do feel bad for him because his players quit on him with 3 months left into the season. There's nothing he can do to save his job now except keep on absorbing losses and go down as that guy that failed to even reach .500 with one of the dominant teams of the entire decade.

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 01:38 PM
There are future hall of fame coaches in the NBA that would not survive a season like this. Curry sure as hell won't.
I kind of figured. I'm not one to place blame on any particular person or player, but wow, how could you not win many games with that group of guys you have???

Kstat
02-23-2009, 01:40 PM
I kind of figured. I'm not one to place blame on any particular person or player, but wow, how could you not win many games with that group of guys you have???

Curry had many faults, but his ultimate downfall was changing the starting lineup every week. It gave the impression he had no clue what he was doing. He lost control of his team very fast from that point.

avoidingtheclowns
02-23-2009, 01:46 PM
Yep.

This team is going down in flames. The good thing is I don't need to care about it one bit, because every problem child on this team will be gone this summer.

Dumars knows this too, which is why I can see him using his ammunition to clean up in free agency and maybe land another lottery pick.

My frustration boiled over long ago when we were 23-15 when I said that we were going to finish below .500 and out of the playoffs if the team was not changed. Watching it unfold doesn't surprise me in the least.

where do you stand on rip hamilton being considered a problem child?

Kstat
02-23-2009, 01:48 PM
where do you stand on rip hamilton being considered a problem child?

He's the one holdover. I'm not even sure Joe will keep him around.

I'm going to put faith in him that he will be back to the old rip next summer, but one more problem and he's dead to me.

CableKC
02-23-2009, 01:51 PM
There are future hall of fame coaches in the NBA that would not survive a season like this. Curry sure as hell won't.

While I find him totally inept, I do feel bad for him because his players quit on him with 3 months left into the season. There's nothing he can do to save his job now except keep on absorbing losses and go down as that guy that failed to even reach .500 with one of the dominant teams of the entire decade.
What's Curry's Contract situation?

Does the Pistons have the $$$ to absorb his contract if they decide to let Curry go after a failed season?

On a related topic.....IF JO'B remains the Head Coach for another season, I'm guessing that ONE of the reasons is because TPTB cannot afford to simply let him go and hire another one. The only alternative I can see is for TPTB to do what the TWolves did with McHale......fire the Coach and have the GM take over as Coach....this way they don't have to pay extra $$$ for a new Head Coach. I doubt that it gets that far with the Pacers ( as in having Bird coach the Team again ), but tightening budgets and penny pinching is a major concern for Teams now.

Speed
02-23-2009, 01:52 PM
I haven't read through this yet, but here my off the beaten path take.

Larry Brown. He makes teams better, he makes players better. So much so, it can last for years. I think he did it with the Pacer teams that Bird coached. I know he's been gone a LOOONNNGG time from Detroit, but the core had mainly been the same from his days, until now.

I don't think this is the only reason Detroit has struggled, but i think it's a part of it.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 01:55 PM
What's Curry's Contract situation?

Does the Pistons have the $$$ to absorb his contract if they decide to let Curry go after a failed season?

They paid Larry Brown a lot more to leave.

Major Cold
02-23-2009, 01:55 PM
Is Rick's contract over with yet? Yeah fire JOB and pay for three head coaches.

avoidingtheclowns
02-23-2009, 02:11 PM
He's the one holdover. I'm not even sure Joe will keep him around.

I'm going to put faith in him that he will be back to the old rip next summer, but one more problem and he's dead to me.

that's what i was wondering - if you thought dumars would be able to trade him or if you didn't think he was problematic. i've always enjoyed rip's game but the way he used to break flip's plays last season (seemed regular but i obviously didn't watch a lot) and then the drama this season seem pretty strange. after the ext. this fall, doesn't his deal run four more years at around $12mil per season? that's gonna be tough to move.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 02:14 PM
it runs two more at $11 million.

CableKC
02-23-2009, 02:19 PM
it runs two more at $11 million.
Yeah, but the Financial situation of the Team may dictate what the FO does.

Are the Pistons like the Pacers where we can't afford to throw away $$$ ( and therefore may have to live with another season under JO'B )?

or

Are they like the Knicks that don't mind throwing away $$$ ( and therefore can afford to take on the $$$ loss )?

Kstat
02-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Yeah, but the Financial situation of the Team may dictate what the FO does.

Are the Pistons like the Pacers where we can't afford to throw away $$$ ( and therefore may have to live with another season under JO'B )?

or

Are they like the Knicks that don't mind throwing away $$$ ( and therefore can afford to take on the $$$ loss )?

again, they threw 4 times as much money away when they fired larry brown.

Naptown_Seth
02-23-2009, 02:56 PM
To be fair, I think it's more Curry than Iverson.
To be fair, Ivy now has a history of making teams worse instead of better, while the guy he replaced went on to have great team success behind him.

Brown and Iverson are the two guys I just don't get the rep on. When did Iverson carry a team by himself (ahem, Finals team had 2 all-stars on it, though each was for only 1 half the season)? How many teams did Brown turn around drastically WITHOUT huge player additions (hint, Clips at mid-season)? How did Iverson become this guy that makes teams a lot better and how did Brown become this brilliant coach with a huge playoff resume?

NY and CHA tell you what Brown can do with bad situations where he gets no massive player improvement.



btw, I agree with menace that losing Billups added to the impact of Curry's coaching, plus adding the issue of Iverson and playing time did as well. The last thing Curry needed was a major player rotation challenge added to the mix.

At least Bosh is coming along nicely....oh yeah. ;)

For all of the Dumars love I think the reality has settled in. He's fine, but he's not wunderkind. Bringing in Curry, moving Billups for Iverson, you pair these with Darko and you have a fine set of mistakes. Even dealing with the devil of Brown is a failure on my books. I think you give Rick Sheed and he gives you the same title Brown did, but without the prima donna pay-me crap that Brown does after the fact.

But...he did put a quality title team roster together too. So he's got strong GM ability, I don't deny that.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 02:58 PM
I still don't believe trading billups for iverson was a mistake. It made the team a little worse, yeah. But Dumars never intended on maximizing his chances to win in 2009. The trade maximized his chances to win in 2010 and beyond.

"all of the mistakes" he's made in the last 5 years amounts to the hiring of curry. He's been relatively mistake-free since darko.

CableKC
02-23-2009, 03:10 PM
again, they threw 4 times as much money away when they fired larry brown.
Yeah....but there is a huge difference in the way Teams handle their finances and $$$ now compared to when Brown was their Coach a few years back. I'm not saying that Curry won't return...nor should he....I'm just saying that times are different now.

count55
02-23-2009, 03:16 PM
I still don't believe trading billups for iverson was a mistake. It made the team a little worse, yeah. But Dumars never intended on maximizing his chances to win in 2009. The trade maximized his chances to win in 2010 and beyond.

"all of the mistakes" he's made in the last 5 years amounts to the hiring of curry. He's been relatively mistake-free since darko.

I always thought the AI deal made a lot of sense, both short and long term. I'm surprised that the Pistons have swooned the way they have, but you did call that back around the time if the last Pacers/Piston matchup.

Coaches are always a crap shoot. There are very, very few sure things. I think it's the hardest job that GM's have.

avoidingtheclowns
02-23-2009, 03:36 PM
it runs two more at $11 million.

shamsports was indicating he was signed (though not at what money) until 2012-13. my bad.


I still don't believe trading billups for iverson was a mistake. It made the team a little worse, yeah. But Dumars never intended on maximizing his chances to win in 2009. The trade maximized his chances to win in 2010 and beyond.

"all of the mistakes" he's made in the last 5 years amounts to the hiring of curry. He's been relatively mistake-free since darko.


I always thought the AI deal made a lot of sense, both short and long term. I'm surprised that the Pistons have swooned the way they have, but you did call that back around the time if the last Pacers/Piston matchup.

Coaches are always a crap shoot. There are very, very few sure things. I think it's the hardest job that GM's have.

this is essentially where i stand too. darko, curry and if sham's numbers were correct i would have added extending rip that long. kwame hasn't worked out but that was low-cost.

dumars gambled on an expiring all-star starter (comical, but whatever) - the main goal was the expiring part. if it happened to work out, great. but it isn't like the pistons were seriously in championship talk this year. they have a jump on retooling without having to go through a three year plan like we'll be watching.

Thesterovic
02-23-2009, 04:24 PM
They won't make the playoffs, and the Heat may not too. I'm not sure though.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Whoever came up with the notion "Hey let's trade our best player we've ever had for A.I." Should be fired. The second I heard that I was laughing hyterically how good Denver would be and how much Detroit would slip. Billups has always been a game changer. What was Detroit trying to accomplish? A lottery pick? A.I. has always been a cancer IMO. Hell even when he was on the olympic team we lost.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 05:25 PM
Whoever came up with the notion "Hey let's trade our best player we've ever had for A.I." Should be fired.

:laugh: WOW that's a good one

SOmehow, I think Joe's job is secure....


The second I heard that I was laughing hyterically how good Denver would be and how much Detroit would slip.

I'd say dumars will be laughing hysterically in 4 months...


Billups has always been a game changer. What was Detroit trying to accomplish?

oh, I don't know....$22 million in cap space in the same summer %95 of the NBA is capped out?


A.I. has always been a cancer IMO. Hell even when he was on the olympic team we lost

...by that logic ben wallace, tim duncan, paul pierce, LeBron James and Carmelo anthony are also cancers...

MrSparko
02-23-2009, 05:26 PM
Whoever came up with the notion "Hey let's trade our best player we've ever had for A.I." Should be fired. The second I heard that I was laughing hyterically how good Denver would be and how much Detroit would slip. Billups has always been a game changer. What was Detroit trying to accomplish? A lottery pick? A.I. has always been a cancer IMO. Hell even when he was on the olympic team we lost.

Chauncey's not even the best point guard they've ever had.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Chauncey's not even the best point guard they've ever had.

Next to Isiah Thomas he is.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:29 PM
:laugh: WOW that's a good one

SOmehow, I think Joe's job is secure....



I'd say dumars will be laughing hysterically in 4 months...



oh, I don't know....$22 million in cap space in the same summer %95 of the NBA is capped out?



...by that logic ben wallace, tim duncan, paul pierce, LeBron James and Carmelo anthony are also cancers...

What Dumars will be laughing after the Nuggest upset the Lakers and win the championship and Billups is Finals MVP again? It might not happen, but damn Denver is playing damn good ball right now.

MrSparko
02-23-2009, 05:29 PM
Next to Isiah Thomas he is.

Well I can agree with that.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 05:33 PM
What Dumars will be laughing after the Nuggest upset the Lakers and win the championship and Billups is Finals MVP again?

about as much as i'll be laughing if I win the lottery on the same day Marisa Miller shows up on my doorstep asking to marry me.

Actually, I think my odds are better.

I wish Billups the best of luck. I hope he goes really far in the playoffs, but it would still not change my mind. He was not going to lead us to another championship and we needed to start reloading. The decision was and is destined to look bad in 2009 but it's also destined to look much better every year after.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:34 PM
Well I can agree with that.

Yea I always bite off more than I can chew, but a finals MVP and all those ECFs and Finals appearances, and he is pretty damn close IMO. Isiah was the man though, but looking back on Billup's career, I wish the Pacer's ever had a PG that good. Mark Jackson, but as much as I loved him, he wasn't as good as Billups is.

Billups is almost more clutch than Reggie somehow. Hell he might even be more clutch.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:36 PM
about as much as i'll be laughing if I win the lottery on the same day Marisa Miller shows up on my doorstep asking to marry me.

Actually, I think my odds are better.

Yea well speaking of ODDS, it's an ODD season, San Antonio is probably winning it all. I just want to see Denver win one. They are my sleeper kinda like how the Cards were in football this year.

Thesterovic
02-23-2009, 05:37 PM
Next to Isiah Thomas he is.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm126/onebade6/Yodabushi.jpg

Kstat
02-23-2009, 05:38 PM
Billups is almost more clutch than Reggie somehow. Hell he might even be more clutch.

He hasn't had a clutch postseason in 4 years. Hopefully got him he snaps his streak of getting schooled by a much younger player or an older player on his last legs.

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 05:39 PM
Kstat, I think you should change your avatar back to something of the Pistons, and positively depicting them. JMHO

Kstat
02-23-2009, 05:43 PM
i consider that positive.

if it hasnt changed by this time next year, then I might have a problem.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 05:44 PM
He hasn't had a clutch postseason in 4 years. Hopefully got him he snaps his streak of getting schooled by a much younger player or an older player on his last legs.

While I can't argue with that logic of getting schooled in the playoffs, look at your own sig. Look at all those Central Division championships you've had in the past decade. My bet is the 2009 could have been there if you didn't trade away Billups, maybe not because of Cleveland. Maybe he has a good run this year because Denver is a pretty young team. Maybe all they wanted him for was the veteran leadership. Maybe to Denver, who has primarily always been a non factor, 22 million is worth the veteran leadership he brings to this team that is stacked with talent.

duke dynamite
02-23-2009, 05:45 PM
i consider that positive.

if it hasnt changed by this time next year, then I might have a problem.
Positive to an extent. But I would really feel more comfortable with you actually showing off your team...lol

Kstat
02-23-2009, 05:51 PM
While I can't argue with that logic of getting schooled in the playoffs, look at your own sig. Look at all those Central Division championships you've had in the past decade. My bet is the 2009 could have been there if you didn't trade away Billups, maybe not because of Cleveland. Maybe he has a good run this year because Denver is a pretty young team. Maybe all they wanted him for was the veteran leadership. Maybe to Denver, who has primarily always been a non factor, 22 million is worth the veteran leadership he brings to this team that is stacked with talent.

I agree that 2009 we would definitely be in the hunt for the division, albeit with a mentally inept head coach.

I'm saying that as much as I cherish those memories, I'd rather sacrifice this season than sacrifice the next five.

Denver is relatively young and had room for internal growth with billups. Good for them, because we didn't.

Chauncey's numbers from last year are down almost across the board. It isn't like he suddenly got better. He went to a team that had room for growth. the pistons as they were did not have the capability to beat boston, and therefore were not worth keeping intact.

Shade
02-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Positive to an extent. But I would really feel more comfortable with you actually showing off your team...lol

You weren't around in '04 before the Sheed trade, when Kstat all but renounced his fanhood in a PFFL-like tirade. This is just par for the course. :laugh: ;)

With that said, how dare you steal the idea for my new avatar, Kstat! :pissed:

Kstat
02-23-2009, 06:49 PM
i didn't give up on the team. I gave up on the season, which is a lesson learned about doing to before the trade deadline.

flox
02-23-2009, 07:26 PM
I wonder why the hamliton contract was signed...to give them good trade room in the future?

Kstat
02-23-2009, 07:30 PM
either that, or to keep an all-star around when the other two are let go, and to bridge he gap for when Afflalo's ready to start.

I wouldn't be shocked of the traded him before 2011, but it wouldnt surprise me if they kept him either.

Midcoasted
02-23-2009, 08:24 PM
I agree that 2009 we would definitely be in the hunt for the division, albeit with a mentally inept head coach.

I'm saying that as much as I cherish those memories, I'd rather sacrifice this season than sacrifice the next five.

Denver is relatively young and had room for internal growth with billups. Good for them, because we didn't.

Chauncey's numbers from last year are down almost across the board. It isn't like he suddenly got better. He went to a team that had room for growth. the pistons as they were did not have the capability to beat boston, and therefore were not worth keeping intact.

It makes more sense that way. I think Billups is far from done. I mean he almost had won you a championship and had you really close almost every year. Winning a championship period is an amazing feat. We have never even one here in Indiana, and the whole time you guys have been at the top of the ECF and one step away from a title, we have been bottom feeders.

I guess all around it worked out better for both teams in the future, so I retract some of my earlier statements. It's not a coincidence though Denver picks up Billups and they are 2 or 3 in the West, up from the bottom tier. Detroit lost billups and they started sliding towards the bottom tier of the East. Maybe Detroit would have slid with Billups but I doubt it. Dude is still clutch as hell regardless if he gets owned once a year. Kinda like Peyton Manning gets owned once a year. He's still great.

Loosing the Wallaces is another reason so i guess I can't pin it on Billups.

Kstat
02-23-2009, 08:52 PM
First of all, he didn't almost "win us" anything in the past 3 seasons. He's been our most disappointing player in our last 3 playoff defeats. Stop pretending like he walks on water. Not only did he not carry us, he failed to be average.

Trader Joe
02-23-2009, 08:55 PM
There are future hall of fame coaches in the NBA that would not survive a season like this. Curry sure as hell won't.

While I find him totally inept, I do feel bad for him because his players quit on him with 3 months left into the season. There's nothing he can do to save his job now except keep on absorbing losses and go down as that guy that failed to even reach .500 with one of the dominant teams of the entire decade.

No Billups=not one of the most dominant teams of the entire decade.

Fool
02-23-2009, 09:00 PM
That's certainly true, but you could do that with more than one other guy as well.

The funny thing is watching all the Piston fans who have been begging for change self-destruct along with the team. It sucks watching loses but we've been watching a team with less and less hope of winning the thing that matters for years. I'm happy the change is happening.

Though I disagree with Kstat about Curry's fate.

Trader Joe
02-23-2009, 09:04 PM
Yea I always bite off more than I can chew, but a finals MVP and all those ECFs and Finals appearances, and he is pretty damn close IMO. Isiah was the man though, but looking back on Billup's career, I wish the Pacer's ever had a PG that good. Mark Jackson, but as much as I loved him, he wasn't as good as Billups is.

Billups is almost more clutch than Reggie somehow. Hell he might even be more clutch.

Call me a homer if you want, but I gotta call some major bull **** on this one.

shags
02-23-2009, 09:40 PM
shamsports was indicating he was signed (though not at what money) until 2012-13. my bad.


Sham is correct. Coming into this season, Hamilton had a player option for 2009-10 at 11.3 million. He signed a 3 year, $34 million extension (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3680959). The extension starts in the 2010-11 season and runs through 2012-13, although that season is only partially guaranteed.

My guess is it was 11.3 million for 2009-10 through 2012-13.

Haggard
02-23-2009, 11:01 PM
A.I. has always been a cancer IMO.

So AI didn't single-handedly carry the 76ers to the finals in 01?

I understand that the Pistons wanted to shake things up a bit as they weren't doing that well pre-Iverson I must admit that I am a little shocked at how they are doing.

Detroit are a far better team than their record shows. While Billups was rock steady in his approach to the game I thought Iverson would come in and get the game Pistons running. Sure such a grand change in tactics might take a little adjustment but there is a lot of season left and if they gel they could be devastating.

Shade
02-25-2009, 01:39 AM
7 straight losses and a sub-.500 record now. Wow.

MillerTime
02-25-2009, 01:45 AM
7 straight losses and a sub-.500 record now. Wow.
I know, its crazy...theyre 1 game under .500

Just trading Billups affected their record so much. And positively affect the Nuggs record

Kstat
02-25-2009, 03:31 AM
I know, its crazy...theyre 1 game under .500

Just trading Billups affected their record so much. And positively affect the Nuggs record

....except they started out 23-12 without billups.....

Thesterovic
02-25-2009, 08:09 AM
Call me a homer if you want, but I gotta call some major bull **** on this one.

Agreed. Hey, this is just good news for us! Another spot open for us.

:dance: :dance: :dance:

2minutes twowa
02-25-2009, 08:32 AM
The "vaunted" Pistons are finally taking a nose-dive.....

GOOD :laugh:



Here's to their demise being painful and long lasting.

:buddies:



May they rot.

HERE HERE!!:buddies:

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2009, 10:01 AM
All this talk about the Pistons cap space is ridiculous. Who exactly are you signing? Any elite player in his prime is resigning with his own team for more money. There are a few pretty good players in 09 (Kidd, Bibby) but I'd rather have Billups over most of the 09 free agents.

As for 2010, there's not a chance in hell that Detroit lands Bosh, Wade, Dirk or LeBron. Maybe Amare?

The way some people are talking, Detroit's right in there for LeBron.

count55
02-25-2009, 10:22 AM
All this talk about the Pistons cap space is ridiculous. Who exactly are you signing? Any elite player in his prime is resigning with his own team for more money. There are a few pretty good players in 09 (Kidd, Bibby) but I'd rather have Billups over most of the 09 free agents.

As for 2010, there's not a chance in hell that Detroit lands Bosh, Wade, Dirk or LeBron. Maybe Amare?

The way some people are talking, Detroit's right in there for LeBron.

It's not just about Free Agents. They'll be buyers in trades on a market where you'll have some teams looking to sell to get under the cap.

Or, they'll be in a position to go after Bosh, offer picks and maybe a young guy or two, and Toronto would find it attractive because they could get some value back for Bosh without having to take on a lot of salaries.

Also, you can bet that some teams will be selling draft picks this summer, and Detroit will be positioned to get into that market.

Detroit looked at their team and decided they couldn't beat Boston with Billups. They made a swing at Iverson, who would either give them the go-to scorer that might put them over the top, or, at the least, give them the type of flexibility that they can use to re-tool around Stuckey and Hamilton.

jhondog28
02-25-2009, 11:19 AM
Whats strange is I have never seen a team that is currently positioned to receive a playoff bid just totally give up on their coach. I have a feeling we will see Milwakee and Chicago in the playoffs.

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2009, 12:56 PM
Or, they'll be in a position to go after Bosh, offer picks and maybe a young guy or two, and Toronto would find it attractive because they could get some value back for Bosh without having to take on a lot of salaries.


They're gonna offer picks and young players for Bosh when he's leaving in 2010?

I'm not disparaging the city of Detroit but no franchise players are signing long term in Detroit.

For the foreseeable future (next five years at the very least) the Pistons are a non-factor in the East.

PaceBalls
02-25-2009, 01:31 PM
It was strange watching nba fast break last night. They were all talking about how much the Pistons management loves Michael Curry and how he is going to be there for a long time etc...

Do you think ESPN is off their rocker or is Joe really gonna keep Curry for the long haul?

Kstat
02-25-2009, 01:41 PM
They're gonna offer picks and young players for Bosh when he's leaving in 2010?

I'm not disparaging the city of Detroit but no franchise players are signing long term in Detroit.

For the foreseeable future (next five years at the very least) the Pistons are a non-factor in the East.

Again, you don't get it. The concept of cap space is not exclusive to signing players.

They could bring in carlos boozer, Caron Butler and Hasheem Thabeet this summer and send away little in return. That's a conservative scenario.

Just because they aren't a big contender for lebron does not mean they are a non-factor. Joe Dumars did not sacrifice this season back in november without having a plan.

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2009, 02:02 PM
Again, you don't get it. The concept of cap space is not exclusive to signing players.

They could bring in carlos boozer, Caron Butler and Hasheem Thabeet this summer and send away little in return. That's a conservative scenario.

Just because they aren't a big contender for lebron does not mean they are a non-factor. Joe Dumars did not sacrifice this season back in november without having a plan.

I do get it. Adding Caron Butler will not make them a contender. I don't dispute that they might grab a pretty good player, possibly an all-star. But they won't be a championship contender.

And that was my point. The days of Detroit being a top 10 team in the league are over, at least for the next few years, probably longer.

Kstat
02-25-2009, 02:03 PM
They can become contenders the same way they left: by adding enough all-stars to cover for not having a top-10 player.

If the Pistons added (for argument's sake) Caron Butler and Carlos Boozer, they would be an elite team next year easily. And they'd have the ability to go out and add even more.


And that was my point. The days of Detroit being a top 10 team in the league are over, at least for the next few years, probably longer.

Yeah, that's absurd. I would be shocked if they weren't a top 10 team next year, with DUmars building for 2009 and the rest of the NBA saving for 2010.

Joe's played it smart. He's goign to have all his chips in a year where the rest of the league will have none. He gets to pick and choose what teams he wants to rob and what players he wants to sign for below market value.

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2009, 02:37 PM
Yeah, that's absurd. I would be shocked if they weren't a top 10 team next year, with DUmars building for 2009 and the rest of the NBA saving for 2010.


They'll be better than:

Celtics
Lakers
Spurs
Hornets
Rockets
Cavs
Nuggets
Orlando
Portland
Houston

Even assuming they add another all star, are they better than Atlanta, Dallas, Utah, Phoenix or Miami?

As for your last team of non-superstars that won a title, they had a hall of fame coach on the bench.

Your unending optimism is refreshing (especially on thsi board), but this is a middle of the pack team going forward. If they can swing a major trade I'll be happy to reconsider. Right now, though, their record says it all.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2009, 02:51 PM
oh, I don't know....$22 million in cap space in the same summer %95 of the NBA is capped out?.
Because nothing builds winners like being in the market that pays big for guys like Ben Wallace and Peja. No way you could lose there.

Going into the FA market is a huge risk and often results in overpaid guys even if they work out. So the "asset" of cap space is to me worth far less than the asset of Billups. I'm saying right now that Denver could get more for trading Billups than Detroit will get with the cap space, at least in terms of contract/results ratio.

OakMoses
02-25-2009, 03:19 PM
They could bring in carlos boozer, Caron Butler and Hasheem Thabeet this summer and send away little in return. That's a conservative scenario.


A team with this starting lineup:

Stuckey, Hamilton, Butler, Boozer, Thabeet

with Tayshaun Prince as 6th man would be at worst the 4th best team in the East next season. If they can gel and play together, I could see them pushing Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando. Those 3 teams are the only serious contenders in the East right now and in the foreseeable future. Even projecting the rosters of young, successful teams like Philly, Atlanta, and Miami forward, they don't become contenders without adding major pieces.

I think Kstat's right on with the cap space giving them the ability to make trades. New Jersey offered Portland Vince Carter and 2 1st round picks for Raef LaFrentz. If the Pistons have enough cap space to absorb a contract like that, they could make the same trade with Aaron Afflalo instead of LaFrentz and NJ sheds about $10 million in salary.

Kstat
02-25-2009, 04:10 PM
Your unending optimism is refreshing (especially on thsi board), but this is a middle of the pack team going forward. If they can swing a major trade I'll be happy to reconsider. Right now, though, their record says it all.

Talent is not the reason they are sucking. Nobody is going to confuse this roster for lacking in talent.

You can take Stuckey, Rip hamilton, tayshaun prince and $22 million and make a damn fine team in 3 months.

Firing the coach is also a must, though.

Even assuming they add another all star, are they better than Atlanta, Dallas, Utah, Phoenix or Miami?

Uh, they were better than most of those teams until jaunary when they tuned out their coach and quit on the season. They HAD a top-10 record a little more than a month ago.

Again, This team does not lack talent. Even without Iverson and Sheed they do not lack talent. Adding a couple all-stars to this bunch would put them right back in the mix.

Slick Pinkham
02-25-2009, 04:19 PM
I was certain at the time of the Iverson trade that we heard from KStat that Billups was sliding, particularly on D, was overrated, and was part of the team's problem. Furthermore, I thiink the arguments went, however disinterested AI seems to be in playing defense, he'd still be an upgrade over Billups.

You seem to always think that things are just about to come up roses for Dumars & company. I guess it's not all that unusual, you're a fan and that is what fans do.

I myself am enjoying the Piston's slide and fully expected that Iverson would speed the process. It's just too bad that AI is on my fantasy team and I also had to live with the precipitous fall in his statistics.

Kstat
02-25-2009, 04:28 PM
I was certain at the time of the Iverson trade that we heard from KStat that Billups was sliding, particularly on D, was overrated, and was part of the team's problem. Furthermore, I thiink the arguments went, however disinterested AI seems to be in playing defense, he'd still be an upgrade over Billups.

1. I never said Billups was overrated. That is horse****. I DID say he was sliding, and guess what: he still is. His production is still down, it just goes unnoticed because he is a quality floor leader.

2. I was hopeful that AI would give us what Billups could not in the playoffs. It appears he won't but it was worth the risk at the time.


regardless, i'm happy that the team took a nosedive, If AI wasn't going to spark them, I'd prefer that he sink them and get them a lottery pick, rather than barely keep them float and get neither a good pick nor a decent playoff chance.

I'm not showing blind faith. Dumars clearly has a plan and he's sticking with it. He could have gone out and helped this team at the deadline. He didn't. He's got some things up his sleeve for the summer, when he will be the lone buyer in a league of sellers.

A lot of GMs wish they could be in Joe's position this summer. He can re-make his team however he wants.

count55
02-25-2009, 04:31 PM
I myself am enjoying the Piston's slide

Careful of bad juju, man.

I'm convinced that all the bad things that happened to my Pacers were at least influenced (or made possible) by the excessive amount of glee I took in both Isiah and the Knicks' collapse.:death:

Trader Joe
02-25-2009, 08:02 PM
1. I never said Billups was overrated. That is horse****. I DID say he was sliding, and guess what: he still is. His production is still down, it just goes unnoticed because he is a quality floor leader.

His production is down? He's having the second highest scoring season of his career out in Denver. His assists are slightly down, but I wouldn't say it's enough where its going unnoticed because is a quality floor leader.



2. I was hopeful that AI would give us what Billups could not in the playoffs. It appears he won't but it was worth the risk at the time.




And if Billups production is declining what does that say for Iverson?

Look, I get that you're optimistic about the amount of cap space you have, but there are a lot of unknowns. Dumars has to play his hand PERFECTLY this summer or the Pistons could be up ****creek without a paddle. And history shows that Joe D. isn't quite as perfect as you'd like us to believe he is.



I'm not showing blind faith. Dumars clearly has a plan and he's sticking with it. He could have gone out and helped this team at the deadline. He didn't. He's got some things up his sleeve for the summer, when he will be the lone buyer in a league of sellers.


BTW, just curious if Piston ownership has said how willing they are to spend money right now? The city of Detroit has been hit extremely hard by the economic slowdown.

Kstat
02-25-2009, 08:43 PM
Joe says he's using every dollar of his cap space. He'd quit if ownership told him he couldn't even hit the salary cap. That would be ridiculous and it would cost more money because of the message it would send o the fanbase.

And no, Joe Dumars isn't perfect. Nobody is. Jerry West wasn't perfect. But he's as good as anybody out there right now and he's got a ton of options. He certainly thought the summer of 09 would be worth scuttling the rest of 08 for. He wouldn't do that on a whim.

PacersRule
02-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Hornets 90
Pistons 87

That's another loss for the Detroit Pistons.

S.R.E.C.A.P
02-25-2009, 11:31 PM
8 and counting ....

Kstat
02-25-2009, 11:33 PM
Hornets 90
Pistons 87

That's another loss for the Detroit Pistons.

the ultimate irony is if Iverson and wallace had never shown up they probably would have won.

Los Angeles
02-25-2009, 11:36 PM
Am I the only one that finds the meltdown of a franchise to be a sad thing to witness?

Being a Pacer fan makes me a little sensitive, I guess.

Kstat
02-25-2009, 11:40 PM
Am I the only one that finds the meltdown of a franchise to be a sad thing to witness?


Eh, I'm not sad.

It's a meltdown of a team, but not the franchise. They put themselves in position to be back again next season.

All the meltdowns are being made by guys that are not under contract past this season.

In the end we get a lottery pick and a truckload of cap room.

PacersRule
02-25-2009, 11:46 PM
Am I the only one that finds the meltdown of a franchise to be a sad thing to witness?

Being a Pacer fan makes me a little sensitive, I guess.

No team can be up there forever, it's just a matter of time.

plutarch
02-25-2009, 11:48 PM
on another note how would flip saunders sound as pacers coach?

S.R.E.C.A.P
02-25-2009, 11:54 PM
i want JVG :dance:

Shade
02-26-2009, 12:28 AM
I can't believe the Pistons are only 4 games ahead of the Pacers now.

King Tuts Tomb
02-26-2009, 12:37 AM
Talent is not the reason they are sucking. Nobody is going to confuse this roster for lacking in talent.


They don't lack talent, I'm just sayin they don't have near as much as they used to, or as much as you think they do.

It's easy to blame it all on the coach, but as bad as he might be it's not the reason this team is .500. They're at .500 because the talent on that team is about .500 talent, maybe a little better.

I said it when they were on their 8 game winning streak and I'll keep saying it: This is a middle of the pack team, talent-wise. Unless they upgrade significantly this summer, they'll be there again next season and the season after.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2009, 10:20 PM
Let's see, what's changed. Curry is still the coach, right?

Yet oddly the Pistons, rocketing to the bottom of the conference, suddenly beat 2 of the top teams in the league. I'm trying to put my finger on what was adjusted.

I just can't come up with the Answer.


I really don't think you need much more proof. It's insane how often this keeps happening, AI leaves and things improve, AI plays or joins a team and things go south.

Here's Curry taking all the heat and Joe being defended for brilliance as if this season was totally hopeless for any team not named the Cavs or Celtics, but considering where Denver has gone with Billups and how much better both teams have been with CB on the roster, I think it's way too shortsighted to chalk this up as an obvious punt-for-future situation.

Billups could have been moved for guys like LaFraentz too. It's not like AI was the only expiring, but he was one of the few expiring that could actually damage current team chemistry. Terrible, terrible trade. You NEVER give up a much more valuable asset. CB's deal and production still makes him a very valuable asset and could have maybe got a draft pick to go with cap space if they'd just waited till later. The timing of the move still suggests that AI was supposed to jump start the Pistons in the short term and he did just the opposite.

Kstat
03-01-2009, 10:31 PM
All the players did was press the re-set button and go back to running the sets they had before Curry got there.

It was Curry's job to put in new sets to integrate AI, and he failed miserably.

Only you would take back to back wins over orlando and boston as an opportunity to bash joe dumars.

Sell it somewhere else.

MyFavMartin
03-01-2009, 11:59 PM
They beat Boston tonight.

I don't think the AI trade can be fully evaluated until we find out who Detroit picks up in FA this summer. Although, Chauncey's contract isn't bad.

How much will Rasheed and AI command this summer?