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View Full Version : Hey, here's something ironic



QuickRelease
02-18-2009, 05:32 PM
After all the moves we've made, Travis Diener is still the most steady floor general we have. Ford is a better scorer, but Diener directs the floor better IMHO. Your thoughts?

duke dynamite
02-18-2009, 05:33 PM
Couldn't agree more.

Travis controls the floor, very well. I will never believe that he is starter material, but I want him to play...a lot.

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2009, 05:34 PM
He's clearly our best PG. And has been all season.

duke dynamite
02-18-2009, 05:35 PM
He's clearly our best PG. And has been all season.
Change the word best with consistent. He doesn't score much, but again, he controls the game a lot better.

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2009, 05:36 PM
Change the word best with consistent. He doesn't score much, but again, he controls the game a lot better.

I won't. He's been the best. He's our only PG who makes the players around him better and doesn't turn it over consistently.

QuickRelease
02-18-2009, 05:37 PM
And as an added bonus, he's FINALLY starting to hit his jumpshot consistently.

ReginaldWayne
02-18-2009, 06:08 PM
put dieners brain in tj's head and hes an all star caliber pg.

MyFavMartin
02-18-2009, 06:38 PM
I posed this elsewhere but...

If you were Diener and getting minutes as the primary backup PG, would you decline your option and hit FA?

Haggard
02-18-2009, 06:46 PM
How is this ironic?

and if Diener is that good why isn't he starting?

CableKC
02-18-2009, 06:58 PM
I posed this elsewhere but...

If you were Diener and getting minutes as the primary backup PG, would you decline your option and hit FA?
Probably not.....he's still only the 3rd PG option a team that is averaging 13mpg and putting up 3.7ppg/2.4apg. I doubt that Teams would be paying much for that unless they were absolutely desperate.

QuickRelease
02-18-2009, 06:59 PM
How is this ironic?

and if Diener is that good why isn't he starting?

How is this ironic: We made a lot of drastic moves to bring in T. J. and Jack, yet Diener's steady play as team quarterback has been better than both.

Why isn't he starting: I didn't say he was a better player than Ford. I said he was a better team quarterback. Ford is faster/quicker, and a much better scorer. But Diener brings a steadiness to the floor that neither Jack or Ford have brought thus far. There is a flow to the offense when Diener hits the floor. Doesn't mean he should displace Ford as the starter. Team value is not always marked by starting, or stardom.

MrSparko
02-18-2009, 07:01 PM
I can't imagine Deiner gets a significiantly worse or better contract next time.

WetBob
02-18-2009, 07:05 PM
At the end of games, if its close, we should all be praying that JOB lets Travis handle the ball.

Kemo
02-18-2009, 07:08 PM
I love Diener , and really would like to see him get 25+ mpg ..

He absolutely needs to be our pg on the floor for the 2nd half of the 4th quarter to close out games ..

I have , time and time again praised Diener's play, and his ability to efficiently run this team , but everytime I talk about how great he is, I get laughed at, like I am crazy...

We DON'T ned a pg that is a scorer , we need a pg who knows how to RUN A TEAM...

I could care less if our pg scores only 10 to 12 ppg .. as long as he gets 10+ assists I'd be very happy ..

So what , if Diener isn't much of a scoring pg ...? I would rather him score 10 ppg and be the guy who runs our offense efficiently .. than have a guy like Jack or TJ on the floor who ,half of the time are reckless and boneheaded mistakes cost us some valuable possessions .. (see how many games we lost by less than 5 pts this season, in which Jack or TJ turned the ball over 4 or 5 times in that game)

Don't get me wrong, I like TJ alot .. and I like Jack to a lesser degree.. But I don't think TJ is responsible enough with the ball to run our offense for more than 25 minutes per game..

Like I said , I like Jack , but with as stacked as we are at the 2 position , I just don't see the need to re-sign him .. unless he is willing to be more of a role-player/situational player... and only play maybe 20 mpg..

I really would love to see this team being ran by Diener for 30 mpg ...
I think we would win ALOT more games , and our team would have continuity..
With TJ and Jack, it seems alot of the time, they are looking for their shot first, and then their team-mates 2nd ..
You can't win with a pg playing with that mentality.. especially when both pg's are turnover prone (tj to a lesser degree, but still)...

Perfect Example............ (and I am only comparing their playstyles... a pass first pg to a shoot first pg)

OK
Let's compare
Diener to Billups
and
TJ/Jack to Allen Iverson ..

Look at how much better Denver got by trading AI for Billups ... how much more fluid the offense is ran on the court, how much BETTER the chemistry is...


Then look at how much downhill Detroit went, when AI went there... heck they even had to move AI to sg, with Stuckey playing starting pg now, cause AI's style of play ..

Look at how horrible Denver was with AI at pg... and how great they are now..


Hence my comparisons above ... with the current Pacers team ..

Diener is a very unselfish player that makes everyone around him better, and he looks to get his teamates an open shot ... and he CAN score when needed ... a'la Billups

TJ/Jack both are good players, but they are looking to create their own shots, usually turning it over in the process, and if they can get an assist to an open team-mate that's good, but that is also secondary to them ... a'la Allen Iverson


Which type of player would YOU rather have run your team...?
Me personally I would pick a Diener type player every single time..

Like I said I would love to see Diener given a chance to start, and play 30+ mpg as our pg .. Look at how well he done last season, when we had a depleted roster, and totally different players..

I wish we could do some trading , and somehow get Sessions , and have a Diener/Sessions pg rotation ..

DgR
02-18-2009, 07:14 PM
I like Diener, but he's getting most of his minutes against the opposing teams bench. I bet if he would play TJ's minutes against the league's starting 5s- his A/T ratio would be a lot worse and would emphasize why he shouldn't be a starter. The best thing we can we say about him right now is that he's doing a hell of a job off the bench.JMOAA

cinotimz
02-18-2009, 07:20 PM
He is leading the league with a 6.92 assist to turnover ratio...for whatever thats worth.

jeffg-body
02-18-2009, 07:35 PM
If you could put Travis' brain into Jack's body now that would be a good PG.

QuickRelease
02-18-2009, 08:00 PM
I like Diener, but he's getting most of his minutes against the opposing teams bench. I bet if he would play TJ's minutes against the league's starting 5s- his A/T ratio would be a lot worse and would emphasize why he shouldn't be a starter. The best thing we can we say about him right now is that he's doing a hell of a job off the bench.JMOAA

True, but even when he was starting for us last year, he was reliable, and didn't donate quite so much to the opposing team.

count55
02-18-2009, 08:03 PM
True, but even when he was starting for us last year, he was reliable, and didn't donate quite so much to the opposing team.

Other than the fact that we were 6-15 when he started.

Diener is the most classic point guard, and he doesn't make mistakes, but the roughly 15 minutes he's getting is about his point of diminishing returns.

QuickRelease
02-18-2009, 08:04 PM
Pound for pound, T. J. Ford is better than Diener in a lot of different aspects. But in terms of on floor team orchestration, Diener is a little better than him IMHO.

Hicks
02-18-2009, 08:47 PM
TJ and Jack are better players (well TJ is), but Diener's the best of the three at playing like a point guard.

pacersgroningen
02-18-2009, 08:59 PM
I prefer TJ playing the point for most of the time (when he's not playing Me-J). I also like Jarret Jack as a back up PG (when he's not playing SG thanks to JOB) and I really like Diener to orchestrate our offense for like 16-18 minutes a game. Is that too much to ask? I feel it might improve us by a lot.

count55
02-18-2009, 09:12 PM
TJ and Jack are better players (well TJ is), but Diener's the best of the three at playing like a point guard.

This

PR07
02-18-2009, 09:35 PM
How have people gone this far in the discussion without mentioning Diener's defense? That's probably the big reason he doesn't get more PT, he can hardly guard anyone. It's great that he takes care of the ball and distributes efficiently, but if you aren't a two way player, you aren't going to get much time.

WetBob
02-18-2009, 09:39 PM
How have people gone this far in the discussion without mentioning Diener's defense? That's probably the big reason he doesn't get more PT, he can hardly guard anyone. It's great that he takes care of the ball and distributes efficiently, but if you aren't a two way player, you aren't going to get much time.

Haha, why mention it?

There isn't a two way player on the team.

PR07
02-18-2009, 09:43 PM
True, but Jack is light-year's ahead of Diener defensively when he's not guarding Caron Butler, and while like Diener, Ford can get overpowered, he has better speed and athleticism to at least be pesky for opposing teams.

I like Diener, but anything more than 15-20 minutes, and you're asking for trouble, because he's going to get severely exploited.

count55
02-18-2009, 09:45 PM
Haha, why mention it?

There isn't a two way player on the team.

I really don't care about their sexual preferences.

McKeyFan
02-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Haha, why mention it?

There isn't a two way player on the team.

I think Granger and Daniels qualify, and Jack to a lesser extent.

A little too much hate is making you exaggerate.

Kemo
02-18-2009, 10:06 PM
Other than the fact that we were 6-15 when he started.


Not Diener's fault.. but the shoddy cast or lack-there-of around him

Kemo
02-18-2009, 10:10 PM
I don't know what the heck you guys are seeing defense-wise..

But Diener at least TRIES ... plus he stays on his man most of the time.. unlike *ahem* TJ / Jack ..


I'd rather have Diener's defense , then TJ/Jack's guaranteed turnovers at the most inopportune time and bulldozing through defenders to get stripped playstyle..

YoSoyIndy
02-18-2009, 10:14 PM
I posed this elsewhere but...

If you were Diener and getting minutes as the primary backup PG, would you decline your option and hit FA?

Diener will decline his option. His demeanor has said it all season. One year at 1.5 MM (or whatever it is) can be made up w/ another 3-year deal.

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2009, 10:36 PM
I think Granger and Daniels qualify, and Jack to a lesser extent.

A little too much hate is making you exaggerate.

Granger used to qualify. He's stopped trying defensively this year other than trying to block shots off the ball. Daniels probably qualifies. Jack qualifies when he's on PGs. But he hasn't played PG in a long time.

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2009, 10:38 PM
Diener will decline his option. His demeanor has said it all season. One year at 1.5 MM (or whatever it is) can be made up w/ another 3-year deal.

Yep. He can make the same or slightly more elsewhere and actually get some playing time. If I were him I'd decline.

HeliumFear
02-18-2009, 10:40 PM
He does a good job as a third string. I really don't care if he sees nothing but garbage minutes though tbqh.

Speed
02-18-2009, 11:01 PM
He's a true PG and his defense is much better. Still not a starter on a good team though, sorry.

larry
02-18-2009, 11:18 PM
Did you see Travis get blown by when the shot clock was at 9 seconds late in the 4th tonight?
The Bobcat lead was 6 & DJ Aug. crossed Diener over something crazy which ended up being a wide open 3/nail in the coffin.
It was worse than A.I. in his prime. That shows Diener's ability.
I've felt this way awhile now.
TJ Ford is light years better. Diener has the worst defense of any point guard in the NBA.
At the end of a game give me 1 SATRTING point guard he is going to bottle up.
The answer is none. He'll get blown by, our defense will break down, & Roy will be on the bench so the paint is free. I like this year's team, but Diener HAS to go after this year.
He can stay as 3rd string at best. When I see him play at the end of a game I question Obie's understanding of hoops. Only reason he should EVER play is if he is red hot.
He barely turns the ball over which is good & consistent I guess.
He is consistent at not making plays or being able to guard for sure.
His short comings are not from lack of effort though. He is a solid guy.
We would have won at least 4 more games if not more if we had Anthony Johnson in Diener's spot. Turn your eyes away from what CP3 did to him tonight though, hahaha

larry
02-18-2009, 11:25 PM
I don't know what the heck you guys are seeing defense-wise..

But Diener at least TRIES ... plus he stays on his man most of the time.. unlike *ahem* TJ / Jack ..


I'd rather have Diener's defense , then TJ/Jack's guaranteed turnovers at the most inopportune time and bulldozing through defenders to get stripped playstyle..


He stays on his man when the play is for someone else.
Only time he can cover a good PG is when they make a pass & watch the rest of the play.
If ANY STARTING PG has the rock looking to attack they will get by Diener all too easy.

switch
02-19-2009, 12:00 AM
At the end of games, if its close, we should all be praying that JOB lets Travis handle the ball.

I understand why everybody thinks very highly of Diener; he is the only traditional pg on our team and he doesn't turn the ball over much. Something that must be considered though is that TJ and Jack both have the ability to create their own shot, which Diener cannot do as well. Also, many of their turnovers occur while trying to create something on their own because they run out of other options. Diener is more conservative with the ball because he does not have the same ability/athleticism to create as the other two do (drive to the rim, take a defender one-on-one) so that stat (assist/turnover) unfairly leans toward Diener favor, IMO.

As for the end of the game, NO. I highly doubt we see Diener taking any game winning/last minute shots while we have Jack and TJ on our roster. By leaving Diener in at the end of the fourth we will be allowing the defense to double double team Danny because everybody knows that if Diener has the ball he is most likely going to pass. If TJ or Jack have the ball they drive and shoot or dish to somebody, thus giving us more options to close out games.

Just my honest opinion, feel free to disagree

QuickRelease
02-19-2009, 01:07 AM
I understand why everybody thinks very highly of Diener; he is the only traditional pg on our team and he doesn't turn the ball over much. Something that must be considered though is that TJ and Jack both have the ability to create their own shot, which Diener cannot do as well. Also, many of their turnovers occur while trying to create something on their own because they run out of other options. Diener is more conservative with the ball because he does not have the same ability/athleticism to create as the other two do (drive to the rim, take a defender one-on-one) so that stat (assist/turnover) unfairly leans toward Diener favor, IMO.

As for the end of the game, NO. I highly doubt we see Diener taking any game winning/last minute shots while we have Jack and TJ on our roster. By leaving Diener in at the end of the fourth we will be allowing the defense to double double team Danny because everybody knows that if Diener has the ball he is most likely going to pass. If TJ or Jack have the ball they drive and shoot or dish to somebody, thus giving us more options to close out games.

Just my honest opinion, feel free to disagree

No, I agree. My assessment of Diener isn't that he should start over what we have now. In fact, I said earlier in this thread, T.J. is a better offensive player than Diener. I just think Diener is a true PG in terms of running an offense. Slick said as much tonight, that T.J. really is more of a small shooting guard than a PG, and I agree.

Jose Slaughter
02-19-2009, 01:41 AM
(see how many games we lost by less than 5 pts this season, in which Jack or TJ turned the ball over 4 or 5 times in that game)

5 games when Ford had 4 or 5 turnovers

3 games when Jack had 4 or 5 turnovers