PDA

View Full Version : So... Dollhouse?



Anthem
02-14-2009, 04:50 PM
Watched Ep1, and it was.... solid. Not great, not terrible. I'd kind of hoped for more, seeing as it's Joss. But it was good enough to make me watch Ep2, although I'm not sure it was good enough to make me pine away while waiting for it.

Thoughts?

kester99
02-14-2009, 05:02 PM
Crap, this started already? Guess I'll need to see if it's online.

sweabs
02-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Eliza Dushku was on Howard the other day. She make me feel good.

Hicks
02-14-2009, 05:31 PM
I thought it was average, but considering I expected it to be bad, I was okay with that for the time being. I'll continue to watch for a while. I hope it get better, though.

count55
02-14-2009, 08:03 PM
It started better than Fringe, and I liked it. You can see some backstories, but Whedon himself has said that it needs to be more episodic, so I am hopeful that it will get enough traction to turn him loose on some story lines.

Anthem
02-14-2009, 08:16 PM
Crap, this started already? Guess I'll need to see if it's online.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/57885/dollhouse-ghost

kester99
02-15-2009, 12:05 AM
So I watched it. It has potential, but it didn't knock my socks off. Average to slightly better for a suspense drama. Formulaic, though. And what's-her-name is no Summer Glau. I give it a season...or two. I do hope Whedon makes something interesting out of it, and gets a better run than that, though.

We'll see. I'll be watching the next episode.

duke dynamite
02-15-2009, 02:25 AM
It was more "meh" for me.

Anthem
02-15-2009, 02:54 AM
So I watched it. It has potential, but it didn't knock my socks off. Average to slightly better for a suspense drama. Formulaic, though. And what's-her-name is no Summer Glau. I give it a season...or two. I do hope Whedon makes something interesting out of it, and gets a better run than that, though.

We'll see. I'll be watching the next episode.
Yeah, I'd really talked it up in my head. Too bad.

Major Cold
02-16-2009, 12:38 PM
Not thrilled with this at all.

Los Angeles
02-16-2009, 12:56 PM
ne of my best friends is an editor on this show - he only did one of the later episodes. He says the show takes some interesting turns, but, as usual, he declined to give specifics.

Pig Nash
02-16-2009, 01:09 PM
I think the best thing about Joss's shows are the side characters. Angel and Buffy were arguably the least interesting characters in their shows, but their stories helped flesh out some of my favorite characters ever on tv, Spike, Faith, Willow, Fred/Illyria. Firefly probably had the strongest lead with Mal, but I think that even then Jayne and River outshone him. This show has potential to have that happen too, but a pilot has to focus on the main character and we'll get those great supporting characters soon.

count55
02-16-2009, 01:55 PM
I think the best thing about Joss's shows are the side characters. Angel and Buffy were arguably the least interesting characters in their shows, but their stories helped flesh out some of my favorite characters ever on tv, Spike, Faith, Willow, Fred/Illyria. Firefly probably had the strongest lead with Mal, but I think that even then Jayne and River outshone him. This show has potential to have that happen too, but a pilot has to focus on the main character and we'll get those great supporting characters soon.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Just looking at the ex-cop, the FBI guy, the Amy Acker character, the apparent renegade/serial killer/informant and the potential back stories, if he's allowed to get there, is where this show can shine.

One of the problems I have with a lot of the shows that I consider good is how weak their characters seem to be. How the side characters tend to be one-note, or unlikable. BSG is about to finish an entire run where I don't think I liked a single character. (Not saying that the show isn't, well, interesting...it's just that I might actually be pulling for all of them to die.) I've got struggle staying with Fringe (the only characters I like or care about are the Bishops), Sarah Connor Chronicles (though I'm really kind of intrigued with "John Henry"), and Life on Mars (the '70's characters mostly seem really caricaturish, and there is no worse actor than Imperioli). The only show I can think of that's done a good job of creating a number of characters I care about is "Life."

Regarding Firefly, the character that was going to be really intriguing was Shepherd Book, but you could see a lot of development, particularly in that last episode "Objects in Space." Whedon's going to have to keep the episodic nature going for a while just to survive, but I'm hopeful that the second half of the 1st season will get some traction.

Pig Nash
02-16-2009, 01:59 PM
Yeah I think Book would have been even better if they had gotten to keep going and not made a movie.

I think Wash's character had run it's course by the time he died, but I think there was more left of Book and that if Joss had really thought there'd be more Serenities or Fireflies then he wouldn't have died.

count55
02-16-2009, 02:19 PM
Yeah I think Book would have been even better if they had gotten to keep going and not made a movie.

I think Wash's character had run it's course by the time he died, but I think there was more left of Book and that if Joss had really thought there'd be more Serenities or Fireflies then he wouldn't have died.

I had heard at the time Serenity came out that there was a three movie deal, but I haven't heard anything since then. It was supposedly pending Joss' involvement in "Wonder Woman." The movie got good reviews, and I think it did OK at the box, for what it was.

However, now he's got Dollhouse, "A Cabin in the Woods", and was attached to a project called "Goners", which is basically parked on the drawing board.

The movie did a nice job of providing some closure, but leaving enough open to pick up a thread. He said in the commentary that guys like Wash and Book had to die because he wanted people to think that it could be a "Wild Bunch" type of ending where they all die.

Of course, it's kind of odd to use spoiler tags for a three-year old movie.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2009, 02:44 PM
I had heard at the time Serenity came out that there was a three movie deal, but I haven't heard anything since then. It was supposedly pending Joss' involvement in "Wonder Woman." The movie got good reviews, and I think it did OK at the box, for what it was.


Actually it lost money at the box office but made enough in DVD sales to at least approach breaking even. The studio argued for more of a name actor to play The Operative but Whedon fought them on it and won - I think that may have been a mistake. You had all the characters back from the show - but none of them are big names.

It was a good show, critics loved it, got a lot of awards - but having a name actor as the bad guy might have helped a lot at the box office.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2009, 02:46 PM
Yeah I think Book would have been even better if they had gotten to keep going and not made a movie.

I think Wash's character had run it's course by the time he died, but I think there was more left of Book and that if Joss had really thought there'd be more Serenities or Fireflies then he wouldn't have died.

Supposedly if there'd been another movie a lot of it would have involved Book's back story. His and Inara's (sp) both would have been interesting.

Of course then you have to wonder how many people would care about the backstory considering how poor the TV ratings (and movie box office performance) was.

Pig Nash
02-16-2009, 02:51 PM
If it had been a name actor that fit the role then fine. But if it was Sam Jackson or somebody then no. The only guy I could think of that probably would have been a good fit is Don Cheadle, and I'm assuming the operative was supposed to be black so if that didn't come around until after they cast the guy then sorry for the mistake. But of course he wasn't and still isn't a huge name.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2009, 05:04 PM
If it had been a name actor that fit the role then fine. But if it was Sam Jackson or somebody then no. The only guy I could think of that probably would have been a good fit is Don Cheadle, and I'm assuming the operative was supposed to be black so if that didn't come around until after they cast the guy then sorry for the mistake. But of course he wasn't and still isn't a huge name.

The black guy I seem to remember hearing about was Snipes. Don't hold me to that though - I may be munging it with a different movie.

Pig Nash
02-16-2009, 05:05 PM
snipes wouldn't have worked for me either, but that's jmo.

count55
02-16-2009, 06:26 PM
If it had been a name actor that fit the role then fine. But if it was Sam Jackson or somebody then no. The only guy I could think of that probably would have been a good fit is Don Cheadle, and I'm assuming the operative was supposed to be black so if that didn't come around until after they cast the guy then sorry for the mistake. But of course he wasn't and still isn't a huge name.


The black guy I seem to remember hearing about was Snipes. Don't hold me to that though - I may be munging it with a different movie.

Yeah, Snipes would've been ugly. I'm struggling to see a big name that would've done as good of a job as Chiwetel Ejiofor did with the role.

I'm not sure the role necessarily needed to be black, but I think the character needed to be as polished as it was. Cheadle could've maybe done it.

Honestly, it was a more sane version of the Jubal Early character played by Richard Brooks in "Objects in Space."

I think you needed someone who was going to sell the true believer aspect without being a raving zealot.

Problem is, once I see a character done, I have trouble imagining it differently. I can't think of a big name that might've worked.

count55
02-16-2009, 06:33 PM
Side note: I tried looking to see if I could find who they wanted to cast, and it turns out that Ejiofor was the first actor who did not appear in the series to be signed.

obnoxiousmodesty
02-16-2009, 06:39 PM
I too thought the first episode solid but unspectacular. I'll keep watching. I have little confidence in the acting range of Eliza Dushku, so that's a worry for me right there.

Hicks
02-16-2009, 09:04 PM
I could have sworn I'd heard something about Sean Connery being considered for the role of the Operative, but don't hold me to that. That would be wacky, but possibly cool.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2009, 10:03 PM
I could have sworn I'd heard something about Sean Connery being considered for the role of the Operative, but don't hold me to that. That would be wacky, but possibly cool.

Actually now that you mention it a light bulb just went off - I believe you're right. Not sure where I got Snipes from.

DisplacedKnick
02-16-2009, 10:04 PM
Yeah, Snipes would've been ugly. I'm struggling to see a big name that would've done as good of a job as Chiwetel Ejiofor did with the role.

I'm not sure the role necessarily needed to be black, but I think the character needed to be as polished as it was. Cheadle could've maybe done it.

Honestly, it was a more sane version of the Jubal Early character played by Richard Brooks in "Objects in Space."

I think you needed someone who was going to sell the true believer aspect without being a raving zealot.

Problem is, once I see a character done, I have trouble imagining it differently. I can't think of a big name that might've worked.

Early was another character Whedon wanted to bring back if they'd had another movie.

DisplacedKnick
02-20-2009, 11:13 PM
Better ep. Dushko was more real in this role and they gave some backstory hints. Not sure we're going to see many other "dolls" though. Except for Alpha.

count55
02-21-2009, 12:02 AM
Better ep. Dushko was more real in this role and they gave some backstory hints. Not sure we're going to see many other "dolls" though. Except for Alpha.

Is Alpha the same as Sierra?...the Asian blonde with the really interesting facial features.

kester99
02-21-2009, 12:08 AM
Can't be the same, can they? They're using the military phonetic alphabet. Alpha is A. Sierra is S.

count55
02-21-2009, 04:11 AM
Can't be the same, can they? They're using the military phonetic alphabet. Alpha is A. Sierra is S.

That, and the fact, that Alpha is identified in the opening scene as a male.

I expect Sierra to be the other "Doll", as the actress, Dichen Lachmann (sp?) is listed prominently on IMDB.

I just hadn't seen the ep until I watched my DVR.

Definitely building the back story.

DisplacedKnick
02-21-2009, 08:06 AM
That, and the fact, that Alpha is identified in the opening scene as a male.


And later when Echo said she saw a faceless man holding a knife. (didn't say if it was a non-serrated blade though)

I expect when we get a little further into this Whedon's gonna pull out a bunch of stuff about the power of the subconscious - and the dangers of screwing with it. If he does it well this could be a good show even though his time slot sucks.

count55
02-21-2009, 07:33 PM
I am certainly hopeful.

BTW...the guy who played the client on that show was the title character in a campy, but fun Family Channel series called "The Middleman." I don't know if it was picked up or not, because I think it was a summer series.

It was silly as all get out, but I kind of enjoyed.

Hicks
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
This second episode was definitely better than the first IMO. Last week was a C, this was a B.

Anthem
02-24-2009, 12:42 PM
In the preview I saw six months ago that I vaguely remember, it showed 3 "dolls" (1 male, 2 female) sitting together, and the handlers were worried about the fact that they seemed friendly towards each other. The familiarity implied that they weren't getting "wiped" properly. But then the russian pimp/middleman guy is the guy I thought was in that preview. So maybe I'm way off.

EDIT: Nope, found it. Also, I like the mirror-face logo in this preview far more than the "naked echo" one Fox switched to right before production. Makes me feel less dirty.

wRVGVb3_UKI

count55
02-24-2009, 02:06 PM
In the preview I saw six months ago that I vaguely remember, it showed 3 "dolls" (1 male, 2 female) sitting together, and the handlers were worried about the fact that they seemed friendly towards each other. The familiarity implied that they weren't getting "wiped" properly. But then the russian pimp/middleman guy is the guy I thought was in that preview. So maybe I'm way off.

That stuff looks like it's probably from the pilot that got scrapped. The three
"dolls" do include Echo (Eliza Dushku), Sierra (Dichen Lachmann), and it certainly looks like Enver Gjokaj, who is playing the "Viktor" character (Russian Mob). It's possible that the re-write got rid of, or delayed, the male doll character, but Joss liked the actor, so he re-cast him in a different role.

He seems to like working with actors over and over again. Obviously, that includes folks like Eliza Dushku, Amy Acker, Nathan Fillians, and Gina Torres, but also includes guys like Jonathan M. Woodward, who had one ep appearances in "Buffy" and "Firefly" before getting a brief run as the geeky love interest who turned Fred into Illyria.

Edit: I also saw Clayton Rohner...so I don't know if he was the client, or if he had a role that got re-cast. (That's happened before. Rebecca Gayheart was originally cast as "Inara" on Firefly, but apparently the chemistry didn't work when they were trying to shoot the pilot. It wasn't that she was a problem, it was just that she wasn't believable as the character and didn't have any chemistry with the cast.)

EDIT: Nope, found it. Also, I like the mirror-face logo in this preview far more than the "naked echo" one Fox switched to right before production. Makes me feel less dirty.

wRVGVb3_UKI

I got no problem with feeling dirty.

Kegboy
02-24-2009, 03:59 PM
I prefer the "dirty" one, meself.

Also, if you pay attention in the clip, Viktor is shown talking to FBI guy as the character he is now, then later shown as an Active. Either he's on a very long assignment, or, more likely, he will find out something and will be "recruited" against his will.

count55
02-24-2009, 05:47 PM
I prefer the "dirty" one, meself.

Also, if you pay attention in the clip, Viktor is shown talking to FBI guy as the character he is now, then later shown as an Active. Either he's on a very long assignment, or, more likely, he will find out something and will be "recruited" against his will.

Cool

DisplacedKnick
02-24-2009, 06:37 PM
The key to this show having a chance, IMO, is for Dushku's real personality to start crashing out fairly early. Whedon loves to take his time with plot development but he needs to have this framed pretty quickly - the core lines of conflict drawn - or I'm afraid we'll have another Firefly - a well-made series which the critics are pretty favorable toward without ratings.

count55
02-24-2009, 09:03 PM
The key to this show having a chance, IMO, is for Dushku's real personality to start crashing out fairly early. Whedon loves to take his time with plot development but he needs to have this framed pretty quickly - the core lines of conflict drawn - or I'm afraid we'll have another Firefly - a well-made series which the critics are pretty favorable toward without ratings.

True, but I think he's pretty aware that he needs to set the hook.

Of course, one of the problems that Firefly had was that the network showed it out of order, and didn't show the pilot until after they had canceled it.

DisplacedKnick
02-24-2009, 11:12 PM
True, but I think he's pretty aware that he needs to set the hook.

Of course, one of the problems that Firefly had was that the network showed it out of order, and didn't show the pilot until after they had canceled it.

Maybe but I bought the DVD of the series and caught them in order and it wasn't until the "Out of Gas" episode that it really caught me - and that was watching 2-3 eps/night where you didn't have a week to get bored. Up to then we just had a few people wandering around space.

He needed River to do something really off the wall or Book to make a secret agent move in one of the first few episodes - something to raise the stakes.

Or have something like "Ariel" or "Objects in Space."

Anthem
02-25-2009, 12:06 AM
I got no problem with feeling dirty.
Dude. This makes it look like a legit action show with a female protagonist:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3367/3308435386_6f597a1c80.jpg

This makes it look like a cheap intro to WWE Raw:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3165/3308435718_251321fef0.jpg

count55
02-25-2009, 09:32 AM
Dude. This makes it look like a legit action show with a female protagonist:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3367/3308435386_6f597a1c80.jpg

This makes it look like a cheap intro to WWE Raw:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3165/3308435718_251321fef0.jpg

True,

but that doesn't make me like looking at it any less.

Anthem
02-27-2009, 03:05 PM
Heh. Any Penny Arcade fans out there?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/2/27/whedonites-dilemma/

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2009/20090227.jpg

DisplacedKnick
02-27-2009, 11:57 PM
Meh. This one didn't grab me.

count55
02-28-2009, 12:09 PM
Meh. This one didn't grab me.

I thought the A line was kind of weak, though I supposed that was offset to some degree by getting to look at Rayna the whole show. However, I pleased with how both the A line, and the show, ended. He's really starting to kick up the development of the story arc.

I'll be interested to see how quickly he's forced to take Echo "rogue". They're playing the "special" angle up and the impatience that Dollhouse has with it (except for the head) to be able to let her be too individual too long and stay in the house...this could be a structural problem for the show. How do you create the situations without the Dollhouse? How do you get more individual, but still keep getting wiped every week, and have it be the least bit credible?)

Given the establishing shot at the treadmills, Sierra coming over at the end of the ep could have been played off innocently, in that vein. However, Echo shaking her off gave the whole thing a conspiratorial bent. Also, it made me immediately wonder if Echo was, in fact, the Sierra to Alpha's Echo...if that makes any sense. Was she tangentially involved in Alpha's slaughter? Did he do it to free her? ("Friends help each other.")


I see a lot of potential places to go, and I think that Kevin Kilner could be a better bad guy than Reed Diamond, if they chose to bring him back.

I'm also curious to see how they bring the primary story arc (Echo/Dollhouse) together with the subsidiary one (FBI Mulder guy).

DisplacedKnick
02-28-2009, 01:48 PM
I thought the A line was kind of weak, though I supposed that was offset to some degree by getting to look at Rayna the whole show. However, I pleased with how both the A line, and the show, ended. He's really starting to kick up the development of the story arc.

He is doing that - both the FBI guy assault and the comments about Echo going beyond her programming do that. Problem is, a few hints about what's to come can't save an episode that was astonishingly predictable.


I'll be interested to see how quickly he's forced to take Echo "rogue". They're playing the "special" angle up and the impatience that Dollhouse has with it (except for the head) to be able to let her be too individual too long and stay in the house...this could be a structural problem for the show. How do you create the situations without the Dollhouse? How do you get more individual, but still keep getting wiped every week, and have it be the least bit credible?)

Given the establishing shot at the treadmills, Sierra coming over at the end of the ep could have been played off innocently, in that vein. However, Echo shaking her off gave the whole thing a conspiratorial bent. Also, it made me immediately wonder if Echo was, in fact, the Sierra to Alpha's Echo...if that makes any sense. Was she tangentially involved in Alpha's slaughter? Did he do it to free her? ("Friends help each other.")


I see a lot of potential places to go, and I think that Kevin Kilner could be a better bad guy than Reed Diamond, if they chose to bring him back.

I'm also curious to see how they bring the primary story arc (Echo/Dollhouse) together with the subsidiary one (FBI Mulder guy).

There are a couple of ways this could play out and I can't see which way it goes. Option 1 is that Echo gets out and the FBI guy or her handler help her - and then go on the run.

The better option IMO is that Alpha keeps on keepin' on and they equip Echo to go after him and somewhere in the pursuit her personality starts breaking through. And of course we'll probably find out that as a person's original personality starts breaking through they turn into a homicidal maniac.

Could be fun - I just wish all 3 of these eps hadn't been so boringly written. Except for ep 1 each was very predictable. I've seen plenty of "Deadliest Game" versions and more than 1 "spoiled rich celeb with a freaky death wish" and this didn't step away from the standard plot for either. Not what I'd expect from a Whedon show.

count55
02-28-2009, 02:54 PM
He is doing that - both the FBI guy assault and the comments about Echo going beyond her programming do that. Problem is, a few hints about what's to come can't save an episode that was astonishingly predictable.



There are a couple of ways this could play out and I can't see which way it goes. Option 1 is that Echo gets out and the FBI guy or her handler help her - and then go on the run.

The better option IMO is that Alpha keeps on keepin' on and they equip Echo to go after him and somewhere in the pursuit her personality starts breaking through. And of course we'll probably find out that as a person's original personality starts breaking through they turn into a homicidal maniac.

Could be fun - I just wish all 3 of these eps hadn't been so boringly written. Except for ep 1 each was very predictable. I've seen plenty of "Deadliest Game" versions and more than 1 "spoiled rich celeb with a freaky death wish" and this didn't step away from the standard plot for either. Not what I'd expect from a Whedon show.

It's clear he's somewhat cowed by the way Firefly was handled, and I'm guessing Minear is burned by Drive and Wonderfalls, all three on Fox.

I'm willing to slog through it in hopes that it catches on enough to start to grow.

Anthem
03-01-2009, 12:02 AM
At least we solved the Victor mystery.

Hicks
03-01-2009, 01:17 PM
At least we solved the Victor mystery.

I'm surprised you're the first to bring it up. Does this mean the Dollhouse folks are actually trying to lure the FBI guy (aka Helo to BSG fans) in?

kester99
03-02-2009, 03:43 AM
I'm surprised you're the first to bring it up. Does this mean the Dollhouse folks are actually trying to lure the FBI guy (aka Helo to BSG fans) in?

No, trying to mange and derail the investigation, I'd think. It was a serious attempt on his life, based on the call from Victor luring him to the basement of that hotel.

Yes, I just saw the third episode. I only catch up when I'm on the road.

I am growing to dislike certain aspects of the show more and more, and will admit that I could be intrigued by certain other possibilities in the story line.

What bugs me: I keep comparing Echo to the Summer Glau character. River was another female character damaged by evil bureaucratic computerized fiddling-about, but in her daze, she was inquisitive, quirky, funny, and just about a hair's diameter away from going off and bringing serious destruction to whomever was in her sights. Good plot tension there....uhhh, suspense, I think they call it.

The Echo character, in her tabula rasa state is a milquetoast. Programmed for a mission, she is shallow and embarrassing at times. 'Oh, goody, I got the singing job!' I have no interest in watching this character. (Also, the intro to the show looks and sounds like a Jackie Collins soft-porn chick flick intro. Dolls, indeed.)

What's promising: Looks like Echo is 'going off her meds.' The various possible plot twists that could be developed from that are intriguing.

What I hope Whedon avoids: The Oh-he-was-a-doll-all-along cop-out. Too easy to wrap up an inconvenient story line, or character, with one scene of them in 'the chair.'

What I think is unavoidable: Dushku just doesn't have the on-screen presence that Glau has. No matter the plot twist, she'll never grab me like River did.

Yes, I'm still going to watch it.

DisplacedKnick
03-02-2009, 08:02 AM
What I think is unavoidable: Dushku just doesn't have the on-screen presence that Glau has. No matter the plot twist, she'll never grab me like River did.

Yes, I'm still going to watch it.

One of the things I'm sure they're going to work from is the series opening scene - the "I was just trying to make a difference" from Dushko. They'll bring out what that was as her memory starts to return in flashbacks. At least I assume they will. That'll be a big piece of this whole thing once we get deeper. We'll see if it makes the Echo character more intriguing.

But they need to move toward it pretty quickly for ratings purposes. Episode after episode of "memory wipe - new character - memory wipe - new character" won't cut it.

DisplacedKnick
03-07-2009, 09:10 AM
Nope. That one did nothing for me.

Hicks
03-07-2009, 11:01 AM
This was okay, but next week's preview makes me wish it were TWO weeks later already.

Anthem
03-07-2009, 05:30 PM
I guess I just don't understand the concept, sometimes. Midwife? Why use a Doll for a midwife? There are plenty of midwives in the world.

obnoxiousmodesty
03-08-2009, 11:41 AM
I guess I just don't understand the concept, sometimes. Midwife? Why use a Doll for a midwife? There are plenty of midwives in the world.
Agreed. This show just isn't working right now. The characters, as well as the situations they are placed into, just don't work. I've quickly lost interest, and next week looks like the worst episode yet.

Anthem
03-08-2009, 11:39 PM
Agreed. This show just isn't working right now. The characters, as well as the situations they are placed into, just don't work. I've quickly lost interest, and next week looks like the worst episode yet.
Alternatively, if you're going to buy a doll to break into a vault, why not use an all-doll team? Send Echo, Victor, Sierra, and another guy (call him "Romeo"). More expensive, sure, but you don't have to worry about your expert going nuts and stealing the artifact.

Pig Nash
03-08-2009, 11:47 PM
The problem is that the dolls are supposed to be perfect for every job, but if you show them doing it right, then there's no conflict to move the story forward. There might be conflict in what they're doing but nothing that drives the show as a whole. So there are going to be a lot of times where I find myself figuring out ways they could have done it better.

I just tend to think that they haven't had any real problems since Alpha and now the same kind of stuff is happening with Echo and they might change some of their protocols to minimize the risk.

DisplacedKnick
03-08-2009, 11:52 PM
The problem is they need to get past episodes that consist of, "job-role-wipe memory" followed by the next episode consisting of "job-role-wipe memory."

Until they move outside the little box there's no character to identify with since the characters only exist for one ep.

I think I'm tired of this show. Lucky for them Friday night TV sucks so I may still watch when convenient but so far it's gone nowhere. Slowly.

Hicks
03-09-2009, 08:30 AM
I'm sticking around because it's a Whedon show, but I'm also hoping for improvement soon because I've read that allegedly it's the episode after next where they started hitting their stride and when FOX stopped meddling with them.

Also, on Trek BBS I was reading a post by someone who has read Joss' original pilot script. Apparently, pieces of that pilot have been stretched over all of the aired episodes to date and stuffed with stand-alone plots. In other words, it sounds like Whedon's original intent was to quickly get Echo through the path she's crawling through right now over weeks.

Things might really pick up in the next few weeks.

bellisimo
03-09-2009, 11:20 AM
yup...also heard similar thing about it picking up from the 6th episode and on as the first are to get the attention of the casual viewers who cannot handle "complex" shows such as AD and LOST by having to follow up on each episode to know whats going on in the next one...


She was quick to add that she’s not at all dissatisfied with the episodes before it, but the overall impression is that the first five were constructed more as standalone episodes that might hook the casual viewer while the back half of the season unfolds in more serialized fashion. (She also said that Whedon’s voice as a writer comes through more clearly than it has so far, which is great news given how little of it was evident in the premiere.) In the meantime, I think we’re supposed to be patient until the show finally hits its groove—provided that FOX is similarly patient, of course, and the network has spotty history at best. (Looking at the ratings, there’s reason to feel both hope and dread. For more on that, check out a Newswire post (http://www.avclub.com/articles/dollhouse-still-on-the-air,23903/) I wrote about it earlier in the week.)

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-target,24147/

Anthem
03-10-2009, 10:27 PM
I just don't get it. At all.

If Whedon's really the genius people think he is, why doesn't the dude have a "no-meddle" clause with Fox? Or, for that matter, why work with Fox at all?

count55
03-10-2009, 11:05 PM
I just don't get it. At all.

If Whedon's really the genius people think he is, why doesn't the dude have a "no-meddle" clause with Fox? Or, for that matter, why work with Fox at all?

Because nobody has the "no meddle" clause with Fox.

As to why he works with them, I can't tell. There is a lot of it though...and it's not just him...Tim Minear (Buffy/Angel alum) did "Wonderfalls" and "Drive"...each of them only getting 4 eps aired before being ****canned by Fox. (Drive was OK, but I loved Wonderfalls.)

Unfortunately, the WB and UPN merged to be CW, then promptly started sucking the life out of shows like "Veronica Mars," so, unless Joss could get a gig with HBO or Showtime (:fingerscr), he's stuck with one of the networks, and I think he's being overly cautious.

Of course, the early Buffy and Angel eps were largely stand alones. Buffy had such a strong cast and such good dialogue that it was easier to overlook the kind of clunky eps like "Inca Mummy Girl" and "I, Robot, You Jane". Angel kind of meandered until they started arcing the show.

The last Dushku show, "Tru Calling" started a lot like this. It wasn't Whedon, but it was just kind of blah, until the last half dozen eps of the season, and it really took off. It was Fox, too, and it had been picked up for a second season, but then they changed their mind and it was replaced by "Point Pleasant," which supposedly fit better with the demo for "The OC".

EDIT: I wonder how much Fox is living of it's rep for "The Simpsons" and "The X Files", or trying to duplicate "The X Files". They've taken short flyers on a number of shows that showed promise (Firefly, Wonderfalls, Brimstone, Touching Evil), but then dumped them in a hurry.

I don't know...the show's meh right now, but I do think there are some stories that could be told that would be worthwhile.

Kegboy
03-15-2009, 10:47 AM
I just don't get it. At all.

If Whedon's really the genius people think he is, why doesn't the dude have a "no-meddle" clause with Fox? Or, for that matter, why work with Fox at all?

Because the alternative is to go indie and just make Dr. Horribles for the rest of his days. Too take something to the mass market, compromise is inevitible.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Whedon-Dollhouse-stronger-1004045.aspx

Too lazy to c and p, Joss says this week's the game changer.

Hicks
03-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Yeah, the preview for next week looks exciting/interesting. Friday's was another "blah" episode, but I'm looking forward to next week. Things seem to finally take off. Knowing that this ep coincides with when FOX pulled back on getting involved and just started (more or less?) letting Joss Whedon do his thing is also encouraging.

count55
03-15-2009, 03:20 PM
It seems to me that they need to get out of the Dollhouse to really create some conflict and interest. As long as she's in, she can't have any sustained personna. If she starts going off reservation, then it's less credible for her not to be put in the "attic".

Anthem
03-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Because the alternative is to go indie and just make Dr. Horribles for the rest of his days.
Which was a pretty good flick, actually.

Regardless, I'm not asking why he doesn't go Indy. I'm asking why he keeps going with Fox.

Surely there are other networks out there that would work with him? Or does he have some weird exclusivity agreement?

DisplacedKnick
03-16-2009, 11:31 AM
Which was a pretty good flick, actually.

Regardless, I'm not asking why he doesn't go Indy. I'm asking why he keeps going with Fox.

Surely there are other networks out there that would work with him? Or does he have some weird exclusivity agreement?

Dunno - it was widely reported that after Firefly he said he'd never work with Fox again - and here he is.

obnoxiousmodesty
03-21-2009, 12:27 PM
Last night's episode was fantastic. Now that's what one expects out of a Whedon show. If the story can manage to maintain this level of intrigue, then it's a winner.

DisplacedKnick
03-21-2009, 12:35 PM
Last night's episode was fantastic. Now that's what one expects out of a Whedon show. If the story can manage to maintain this level of intrigue, then it's a winner.

Yup - loved the new elements. Plot complexity just went into the stratosphere. I'm glad there wasn't a compelling game on just then.

count55
03-21-2009, 01:47 PM
Last night's episode was fantastic. Now that's what one expects out of a Whedon show. If the story can manage to maintain this level of intrigue, then it's a winner.


Yup - loved the new elements. Plot complexity just went into the stratosphere. I'm glad there wasn't a compelling game on just then.

Yes...I don't know what to make of what happened in the last 10 minutes. So many places to go. However...

Did anybody else laugh out loud at the scene in the house, where the FBI guy is fighting everyone, and the handler is sneaking Echo out...they go past the bedroom, see the bed sprinkled with rose petals, and Echo/Rebecca points and says, "Porn!" I immediately thought, "That's a Joss Whedon line."

Hicks
03-21-2009, 03:08 PM
Now THAT'S more like it! Hopefully the rest of the season is closer to this than the first five. This was clearly a peak moment, but I'd be shocked if it goes back to exactly what it was doing before.

Kegboy
03-21-2009, 06:26 PM
Joss has said the personnel at Fox are completely different from those during Firefly. Still, it's disturbing that they've felt the need to beat the drum so loudly that the first 5 episodes are due to Fox's meddling.

Overall, I thought the episode was decent. All the buildup this week got my hopes up a bit too much. The neighbor being a doll was beyond beyond beyond obvious, and Topher leaving the room before imprinting Echo was a big "duh" too.

That said, the fight kicked all kinds of ***. And the porn stuff was hilarious.

count55
03-21-2009, 08:53 PM
Joss has said the personnel at Fox are completely different from those during Firefly. Still, it's disturbing that they've felt the need to beat the drum so loudly that the first 5 episodes are due to Fox's meddling.

Overall, I thought the episode was decent. All the buildup this week got my hopes up a bit too much. The neighbor being a doll was beyond beyond beyond obvious, and Topher leaving the room before imprinting Echo was a big "duh" too.

That said, the fight kicked all kinds of ***. And the porn stuff was hilarious.

Well...

Do you think that there's actually an insider, or was that the assignment given by the woman in charge? I'm not sure which is the mislead: Topher leaving the room, or the speech given by Echo.

Next week looks crazy, too.

Anthem
03-22-2009, 02:14 PM
At first I was positive that Echo's message was the misdirect, but after the main lady said "contact the other houses" I started to think that maybe it was legit.

Interesting.

DisplacedKnick
03-23-2009, 05:23 PM
At first I was positive that Echo's message was the misdirect, but after the main lady said "contact the other houses" I started to think that maybe it was legit.

Interesting.

Yeah - the obvious insider is Amy Acker so we know it can't be her.

Here's the concept that's been coming to me. When Echo was "turned off" in the vault she was also fed a program which involved her making contact with the FBI guy. As we go on we find that Echo secreted herself in the house purposely for whatever reason and has set up a series of programming messages designed to bring The Dollhouse down. It would be a very Whedonesque type plot twist.

Whatever it is, I'd think it would incorporate some things from the 1st 5 eps so those don't end up looking like so much wasted air time. Let's face it - all the preamble to get us to this point could have been covered in one ep - two at the most. There have to be plot elements that will be brought forward.

DisplacedKnick
03-28-2009, 02:27 PM
Caught ep 7 online. I won't comment much except to mention that Whedon had always steered as clear as he could from political/social questions in his other shows - in this one Echo's backstory's right in the middle of one.

The new active was so friggin' obvious - I thought he'd just show up in a subsequent ep with a "How's our new active coming along?" comment from someone.

Quis
03-28-2009, 09:50 PM
I watched about a half hour of this show last night. Eliza Dushku in thigh-high stockings was fantastic, but other than that it seemed incredibly stupid.

Pacersfan46
03-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Yeah, it was potentially a very bad episode.

I think it was set up to have some explanation as to why actives begin to carry on thoughts of their own beyond Echo, and in Echo's case making it even more difficult to ignore her thoughts of previous events.

I'll chalk it up to a setup of something to come .... nothing more. If it wasn't a setup to advance to story somewhere down the road, then it was just a suck *** episode.

-- Steve --

tora tora
03-30-2009, 01:16 PM
I'm giving up on this program.... the stories just bore me to no end.

Anthem
04-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Interesting ep.... haven't wrapped my mind around it yet. Does this mean the actives really all go back to zero? Have we lost all forward momentum inside the dollhouse? Does the plot switch more to Ballard?

We'll see.

kester99
04-05-2009, 03:48 AM
I start to write this or that about this show...wondering where the plot is going, or if even Whedon knows where it's going to go, without weekly feedback from focus groups or Fox executives. And then I watch a show like Life, or The Sarah Connor Chronicles, or Life on Mars, and I think, 'Wow, that's the way to develop a show.'

Yeah, I don't know if I'll stick with this one much longer. It's steadily working its way down the prioritizer list on my DVR.

DisplacedKnick
04-05-2009, 09:02 AM
Thought we were going to get into more of an arc after ep 6 but the last 2 have been back to the "blah" stand-alone's. The only plot advancement was the phone call. I guess you can point to the 4 featured active's and talk about some sort of character development since we saw something of who they were at their core (and it's a very obvious hint that those will be the 4 to make a breakout when the time comes) but it's yet another episode that left me feeling very empty.

count55
04-05-2009, 09:46 AM
I start to write this or that about this show...wondering where the plot is going, or if even Whedon knows where it's going to go, without weekly feedback from focus groups or Fox executives. And then I watch a show like Life, or The Sarah Connor Chronicles, or Life on Mars, and I think, 'Wow, that's the way to develop a show.'

Yeah, I don't know if I'll stick with this one much longer. It's steadily working its way down the prioritizer list on my DVR.

It's funny you mention Sarah Connor....I really thought there was an exciting moment between Weaver and Ellison in the elevator in the last episode:

When Weaver said that the all of their (Ellison, the little girl) depended on the survival of John Henry. It might raise some continuity problems, but could it mean that John Henry is not SkyNet? Is it possible that Manson's character was sent back to save a parallel, but more benevolent AI that had been destroyed by SkyNet in the "first" timeline.

It makes the whole destroying the warehouse thing in need of rationalization, as well as some of the setups showing Manson's evil side...but again, it could have just been the same kind of cold expediency shown consistenly by Glau's character.

In other words, is there a rift in the machines in the future?

I agree that Life is fantastic, and Life on Mars was decent, but I thought it showed some of the same problems that Dollhouse is showing. It was kind of erratic, and the stand alone eps were pretty weak.

I thought the finale was OK. It probably helps that I came to terms with the frog scene in Magnolia. I was watching that movie, had decided that I was going to really like it (while understanding why others wouldn't), then the ****ing frogs fell out of the sky. I was really pissed, and it wasn't until last year that I could watch it again. The second time I watched it, (a) I knew it was coming and (b) picked up on the foreshadowing (warning) at the beginning better (or remembered it this time), and I decided that I really liked the movie.

When they wake up in the space ship, it's kind of one of those, "Hey, WTF?....Chea...well....ummmm.....Life on Mars....well, I guess I should have seen that coming. There were clues throughout the series.

I thought Life on Mars had a tendency to be too cartoony and too desperate for ratings with some kitchy stuff.

Life and Sarah Connor have advantages over Dollhouse in that they have better storyline material to develop. Dollhouse is going to have to really get creative to break out of some of the limits they've placed on themselves in concept. Life on Mars was always going to have a limited shelf life, because how long could you keep him in 1973 without it turning into Gilligan's Island?

The thing that Life and Life on Mars have on Dollhouse is the characters. Charlie Crews and Dani Reese were instantly likable. I also really enjoy the Ted Earley character, and Donal Logue's Lt. was a nice addition this year. Sam Tyler was a good character, and the others were pretty solid. I haven't been a huge fan of the characters on TSCC to this point, but I really like John Henry. (Garret Dillahunt is rapidly becoming my favorite character actor.)

This is what disappoints me most about Dollhouse. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were all good shows primarily because of well-drawn characters, literally from the get-go. Dollhouse has yet to present a character that really captures my imagination. There could be a decent backstory with the handler or with the Amy Acker character, but I'm less than impressed with Ballard.

There will obviously be backstories with the dolls, but how interesting will they be. It's really hurting the series that the main character, Caroline, is largely not herself and helpless all the time...by the nature of the premise. It doesn't help that the glimpses we've seen of the real Caroline seem to indicate a foolish extremist.

In addition to all that, I've become convinced that both Whedon and Minear are gunshy. They seem to be stuck somewhere between trying to make the show that we want, and trying to keep from getting canceled, and their not doing a good job of either. I'm pleased to see Jane Espenson's name on the last ep and on ep 10.

I don't know...it needs to get a few solid eps in a row...I keep thinking of Tru Calling...which was ok-mediocre for the first two thirds of the season, then really took off in the last 4-6 episodes...only to be canceled.

I'm disappointed in Dollhouse, but it's better than any reality TV show ever made, and I really would love to see shows like it, and King, Life, Life on Mars, and TSCC get the number of seasons that shows like Buffy, Angel, and XFiles (which I never particularly cared for) got, just to keep us from turning into a complete Idiocracy of ActorWannabes living on an island or in a mansion doing stupid **** for the cameras.

DisplacedKnick
04-05-2009, 12:21 PM
This is what disappoints me most about Dollhouse. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were all good shows primarily because of well-drawn characters, literally from the get-go.

That and the dialogue - in those shows the dialogue was always good with moments of brilliance. This show's had none of that.

Skaut_Ech
04-05-2009, 12:38 PM
I gotta thank you guys. I've been reading every post in this thread. I was all geeked up for Dollhouse, but missed the premiere. Then I started reading the posts here and decided not to watch.

I guess I feel a little burnt by shows going astray. I think it goes back to X-Files. When I realized how much time I wasted staying with that show, even though it got pretty clear they didn't know where they were going....Let's just say I've gotten picky with my TV affections.

I gotta say, despite how uneven it got for a period there, I loved Life on Mars. I felt like the the final 6 minutes was hugely disappointing, but I loved how soulful it could be at times. (Too bad they didn't just end with the kiss. It would have been corny, but at least satisfying.

Hicks
04-05-2009, 01:17 PM
I look at it like I looked at BSG. I don't mind if the writers want to take me for a ride, as long as the ride doesn't suck. I view the ride/journey and the destination as two separate things to either like or not like. I can comprehend the frustration of watching the X-Files for so long while expecting a mind-blowing reveal, and not getting it, though.

By the way, were you at the Spurs game? I thought I saw you walking in, but I wasn't sure.

count55
04-05-2009, 01:20 PM
I gotta thank you guys. I've been reading every post in this thread. I was all geeked up for Dollhouse, but missed the premiere. Then I started reading the posts here and decided not to watch.

I guess I feel a little burnt by shows going astray. I think it goes back to X-Files. When I realized how much time I wasted staying with that show, even though it got pretty clear they didn't know where they were going....Let's just say I've gotten picky with my TV affections.

I gotta say, despite how uneven it got for a period there, I loved Life on Mars. I felt like the the final 6 minutes was hugely disappointing, but I loved how soulful it could be at times. (Too bad they didn't just end with the kiss. It would have been corny, but at least satisfying.

I was thinking during the kiss that it would have been a decent place to end it.

As to X-Files, I just never thought it was particularly good. I liked Millenium a little better, but it did have kind of a trudging toward death type of feel...on of my main complaints about the new BSG.

I really think that this show could be saved if Whedon just said, "**** it," and wrote like a 6-episode arc himself, true to whatever vision he had.

Hicks
04-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Ultimately, I can take or leave a serial-style or a stand-alone style, it doesn't matter much to me right now, but if they keep the status quo much longer they MUST make these stand-alone situations more interesting. I don't know if that's possible or not.

I do know that what I would like them to do is add more layers to the plot (not necessarily running the current plot out faster, but giving us more to chew on). Right now I'm just not enthralled with what appears to be the soul of the show: "What makes you you?" I could suspend my disbelief with vampires and spaceships because those are interesting and fun, but making up the ability to program people as efficiently (almost) as machines just doesn't do it for me. Maybe for a movie, but not a TV series.

I don't even know why I like this show. I do, to a degree, but I'm hardly in love with it. It's probably just familiarity with Whedon, Acker, and Dushku. If those were three names I didn't know from previous work instead of them, I don't know if I'd care.

At least Terminator got out of it's multi-episode "boring" arc and has gotten interesting again the last few weeks. But it's probably going to get cancelled, too...... :(

Pig Nash
04-05-2009, 07:46 PM
I've liked it so far and I like what they did with Acker's character this week. I think it will get better but I wouldn't be crushed if it got cancelled.

kester99
04-05-2009, 07:58 PM
I don't think Sarah Connor's going to get cancelled...not with another Terminator movie coming out soon. On that show, to count's comment, I think it's pretty much established that John Henry is not SkyNet...I think.

And I loved the ending to Life on Mars...it tied every little hint through the season together. But I was surprised, because that had to be it, right? I mean, the end of the show. Period. No more.

Anthem
04-07-2009, 12:17 AM
Or if he is Skynet, he's a very different Skynet. Due to training and whatnot.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of a rift between the liquids and the bots. It's implied in the submarine episode, but hopefully it gets played out more.

count55
04-07-2009, 01:35 AM
Or if he is Skynet, he's a very different Skynet. Due to training and whatnot.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of a rift between the liquids and the bots. It's implied in the submarine episode, but hopefully it gets played out more.

Yes...but that also gets back to what, exactly, is Manson doing?

BTW...we all think that Jessie is coming back, right? I mean, otherwise, why not show her getting killed?

kester99
04-07-2009, 01:57 AM
It's an intervention to pit John Henry against Skynet, or substitute John Henry for Skynet, run by the faction that the red-head 'mother' (Is that Manson?) represents. She may even be the 'liquid' that was on the sub and declined to work with Connor.

I think. Probably. Maybe.


Just keeping their options open on Jessie? I feel like maybe they're going to bring in a new element, with the uncle killed, Charlie too, the blonde dead by Jessie's hand. Time for an interesting new character?

Anthem
04-07-2009, 06:00 PM
Well, the season's almost over. Anybody know exactly how many episodes there are in this season? Do we know it's getting renewed?

Regardless, my take on Manson is the same as kester's.

count55
04-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Well, the season's almost over. Anybody know exactly how many episodes there are in this season? Do we know it's getting renewed?

Regardless, my take on Manson is the same as kester's.

Usually, there are 22 eps, and that's all IMDB's showing at the moment.

....yeah, this week is the season finale.

And it's not clear whether or not it will be canceled. We could lose all the good shows, with Life on Mars, gone, Life and TSCC and Kings all in trouble.

kester99
04-07-2009, 09:07 PM
Big movie tie-in advertised on Fox for the next TSCC, with an extended look at the new Terminator production. Can cancellation follow?

Fringe returns tonight anyway.

obnoxiousmodesty
04-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Tonight's episode of Dollhouse was easily the best of the series and excellent television overall. If the show can pull out episodes like this, then it's certainly worthy of more attention and another season.

Hicks
04-11-2009, 12:44 AM
I'd like to see this show get a second season.

And definitely a 3rd for Terminator, by the way. The end of season 2 made up for the boring middle.

kester99
04-11-2009, 04:05 AM
Just saw the terminator episode.

So, Manson / Weaver is of a faction that was wooed by future Connor, and who said 'no' aboard the Jimmy Carter. They are hoping to defeat Skynet, using John Henry.

But, why does Manson seem to not know what John Connor's significance is at first. "His mother thinks he's a messiah. I want to know why." Yes, later on in the ep, she and J.H. monitor jailhouse conversation between Sarah and others...perhaps Connor's future role is made clear to Manson then, but that does imply she didn't know previously. So at the time of the offer on the submarine, the faction didn't know John Connor as the leader of the resistance?

Then, Cameron is asked the 'will you join us' question, denies knowing what it means, and reacts negatively toward Agent Ellison. Why? She totally rolls over for J.H. later, and gives up her chip. Was she reacting with dread earlier, in another of those emotional reactions she's not supposed to have, because she knew that was coming? I guess so, since the 'I'm sorry, John' message seems consistent.

So now, we're off into the / a future, where no one has heard of John Connor. Derek is there, Kyle, Allson, and we're set for another season.

But how is this consistent with the last Terminator movie, where Connor ended up at the emergency command post, and began organizing resistance? Is this foray into the future not therefor meant to be how Connor is introduced to the future resistance? I'd say not, because of the consistency issues...movie vs series...and because it leaves SC in a different era, so it won't be permanent. Or, we can just live with it, if the series isn't renewed.

So, a season's worth of adventure in the future? With all ending up restored to the past? And trying to keep consistent with the new Terminator movie at the same time...Oy.

So what did I miss? Or go too far with?
--------------

On Dollhouse: The ep was pretty decent, but a lot of chick-flick tendencies there. I agree with Hicks that any stand-alone episodes are going to have to step it up.

All in all, still not nearly on the same level as TSCC.

Hicks
04-11-2009, 09:22 AM
Weaver knew John, but she was playing dumb in front of Ellison.

Now that John has traveled into the future, it changed the future because he's no longer "here" to grow into the role of leader of the resistance. There now IS NO John Conner in that future other than his teenage self, so they don't know who he is.

The Jimmy Carter sub story took place in the timeline where John DID grow into that leader. Two different timelines. A new one was just created by this "jump".

I don't know why Cameron played dumb about "Will you join us?" and hid it from John. I'm also confused as to why she gave her chip up to John Henry.

As far as I know the TV show is NOT following the continuity of the new movie, or even the last movie (3). With that said, I doubt this is how the show is intending John to become the leader of the resistance. Season 3 (if it happens) will probably be about John getting back to 2009 after he ties up some issues they've created.



Regarding Dollhouse, I'm intrigued by the comments Dominic (the security guy/spy who gets sent to the attic) made prior to being sent to the chair. Hinting at what the Dollhouse is really up to and then in the van kind of insinuating that Echo has deeper programming going on that will cause her to eventually take them all down.

Oh, and this isn't a spoiler, just speculation: But wouldn't it be ****ed up if we find out Victor was an agent trying to uncover the secrets of the Dollhouse just like Ballard is now, and that this is what they eventually did to shut him up?

Hicks
04-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Oh, and I enjoyed the bits during Connor about "the boy and the girl would be in their mid twenties by now." :laugh: Considering Thomas Dekker is 21 and Summer Glau is 27.

kester99
04-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Oh, and I enjoyed the bits during Connor about "the boy and the girl would be in their mid twenties by now." :laugh: Considering Thomas Dekker is 21 and Summer Glau is 27.

Well, now I don't feel like such a perv.

DisplacedKnick
04-12-2009, 06:04 PM
Tonight's episode of Dollhouse was easily the best of the series and excellent television overall. If the show can pull out episodes like this, then it's certainly worthy of more attention and another season.

Yup - this one was excellent. Bunch of interesting hints they could go dozens of places with.

This and ep 6 have been the only 2 really good ones. There have been others that may be OK - ep 8 hopefully will end up having been a necessary one.

Problem now is the ratings - lately they're down well over a million viewers from the 1st few eps. More like Friday's and maybe they can reverse that. Otherwise it'll be a one-season wonder.

And Scott - maybe you should catch ep 9 on Fox online. If you decide it's worth pursuing, watch ep 6. For the rest, this thread tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

Hicks
04-20-2009, 05:55 PM
Little bit from Joss Whedon:

http://io9.com/5217927/whedon-hints-at-dollhouses-planned-lifespan
io9.com
Graeme McMillan



You know, it is tougher [to have changes dictated by Fox], particularly this year because I had a 45-minute note session that was followed by an executive telling me how much he loved "Dr. Horrible" [Whedon's online musical parody] which was obviously made without the benefit of network notes. And then I had "Cabin in the Woods" greenlit at MGM with no notes, which was rare for a movie, so I've been in this wonderful rarified position. But, having said that, I also, always, have to go in there knowing that their priorities may not be mine but their perspective is valid. If they know what they're doing, and I think these guys do, they're worth listening to. And even somebody who doesn't necessarily get what you're doing might be the one to say, "Hey, look, the emperor's naked." ...When I pitched it, I gave them a six-year plan with a lot of leeway for change. But what I really mapped out was the first 13, and even though we start in a different place than I had originally intended, we end up exactly where I'd intended in the 12th episode. Then, in the 13th episode, things just get stranger. There's some twisted **** coming.

I'm curious what's going to make things strange and twisted at the end of the season.

Pacersfan46
04-20-2009, 08:56 PM
Little bit from Joss Whedon:

http://io9.com/5217927/whedon-hints-at-dollhouses-planned-lifespan
io9.com
Graeme McMillan

I'm curious what's going to make things strange and twisted at the end of the season.

Slight issue. Episode 13 isn't going to air.


http://blog.zap2it.com/korbitv/2009/04/dollhouse-episode-13-will-not-air.html

-- Steve --

Hicks
04-20-2009, 09:48 PM
.........

12 is part of what he's talking about, and 13 is going to be on the DVD.

bellisimo
04-21-2009, 08:33 AM
there was no episode last friday...right?

Hicks
04-21-2009, 08:34 AM
I don't think so.

DisplacedKnick
04-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Nope - they ran a Prison Break ep.

bellisimo
04-21-2009, 01:50 PM
thought the prison break ep was instead of terminator...

Anthem
04-21-2009, 02:36 PM
What an ending for Terminator, huh?

count55
04-21-2009, 02:38 PM
What an ending for Terminator, huh?

Yeah... any news on next year?

Anthem
04-21-2009, 11:20 PM
Nope. Supposedly there's a movie in the works.

Pacersfan46
04-22-2009, 06:57 AM
.........

12 is part of what he's talking about, and 13 is going to be on the DVD.

Yes, but IF there's a season 2, then he can't continue off of what was the twisted episode #13, because it never aired. I mean, how can you continue a story off of an episode that a lot of people didn't see?

So if Dollhouse ends, that's a crappy place to end it, and if it doesn't end, you can't continue it off of that episode. What a crappy spot to be put into. :laugh:

-- Steve --

Hicks
04-22-2009, 08:14 AM
Make it episode 02x01

DisplacedKnick
04-22-2009, 08:52 AM
Make it episode 02x01

If I have the code right - yeah.

If Fox picks up the show again, and if ep 13's as wild as Whedon says, release it on the DVD, get everyone talking about it, then broadcast it as part 1 of a 2 part season premiere.

obnoxiousmodesty
05-01-2009, 10:02 PM
Tonight's episode was bloody fantastic. Now I want a second season to continue this storyline. Good, good stuff.

DisplacedKnick
05-01-2009, 10:11 PM
Yup - that got it going. And Dr. Saunders being Whiskey is gonna be interesting.

kester99
05-01-2009, 10:50 PM
Really? I quit watching.

Ahh me, I guess I'll hulu it when I get the chance.

count55
05-02-2009, 02:01 AM
Alan Tudyk was fantastic.

Kegboy
05-02-2009, 09:39 AM
Meh. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more if Alan Tudyk hadn't been jumping up and down the whole episode screaming, "I'm Alpha! I'm Alpha!! Look at me, I'm ALPHA!!!!!!"

Hicks
05-02-2009, 10:34 PM
That was really good.

DisplacedKnick
05-02-2009, 11:25 PM
Meh. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more if Alan Tudyk hadn't been jumping up and down the whole episode screaming, "I'm Alpha! I'm Alpha!! Look at me, I'm ALPHA!!!!!!"

I dunno - there were two points where he made me blink - one was when he knew what the Dollhouse was - no reason for him to know that. The second was when Paul went into the duct and he followed instead of turning tail when he had the chance. But I didn't think Alpha, just that his Dollhouse connection was deeper than building design.

Pig Nash
05-02-2009, 11:46 PM
Yeah they got me. Due to the preview, I knew Alpha was coming but I expected that it would be someone else that they let in due to their taking the security down.

Anthem
05-03-2009, 08:05 PM
I never see the previews so I didn't see it coming at all. Wowza, good ep.

DisplacedKnick
05-05-2009, 12:02 PM
Some of you may find this interesting.

http://io9.com/5239649/alan-tudyk-explains-the-theology-of-alpha

Kegboy
05-15-2009, 10:46 PM
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/05/dollhouse-second-season.html

Shockingly, it's been renewed. I'm happy for those who like the show, but a big part of me feels like it doesn't deserve it. Oh well, at worst it still keeps another crappy reality show off the air.

Hicks
05-15-2009, 10:51 PM
Sweet! I don't love the show, but I like it enough that I wanted to see where season 2 could go.

count55
05-15-2009, 11:18 PM
good

Pacersfan46
05-15-2009, 11:20 PM
I think season 2 is as far as it will get. Seeing how it's still on Fridays. Anything on Fridays is doomed eventually.

Except X-Files. Exception to every rule.

-- Steve --

obnoxiousmodesty
05-15-2009, 11:22 PM
Wow, I'm very surprised. Not as surprised as when I heard Scrubs is coming back, but very surprised.

Los Angeles
05-16-2009, 11:06 AM
Between this show and the Sarah Connor Chronicles, I would have chosen the latter.

Hicks
05-16-2009, 11:32 AM
I want both back.

Los Angeles
05-16-2009, 02:53 PM
I want both back.

You're right. I guess there's no reason to pick favorites.

Just wanted to give SCC some props. It has had some truly amazing episodes (some are not so amazing, but the good ones were over-the-top-fantastic TV.)

Anthem
05-17-2009, 12:25 AM
You're right. I guess there's no reason to pick favorites.

Just wanted to give SCC some props. It has had some truly amazing episodes (some are not so amazing, but the good ones were over-the-top-fantastic TV.)
Agreed.

Is there a definitive word on continuity between Terminator Salvation and SCC? I've heard conflicting reports.

Regardless of the many terrible episodes in Dollhouse, the ending made me curious as to where they'd go in season 2... curious enough to watch more.

Kegboy
05-18-2009, 09:33 AM
http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/05/bubble-show-upd.html

Terminator is cancelled. Condolences to those who wanted it back. Personally, I enjoyed the last few episodes, but I felt they killed themselves with the neverending Jesse/Riley crap.

count55
05-18-2009, 10:20 AM
http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/05/bubble-show-upd.html

Terminator is cancelled. Condolences to those who wanted it back. Personally, I enjoyed the last few episodes, but I felt they killed themselves with the neverending Jesse/Riley crap.

It was always behind the 8 ball, because it was so expensive to make. I'm disappointed, but not heartbroken.

The one on the list that was officially cancelled that I'm really disappointed about is "Life".

Hicks
05-18-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm more than a little disappointed. I wanted both back, but if I had to choose one it would have been Terminator.

count55
05-18-2009, 01:45 PM
What really needs to happen is for Summer Glau to come over to Dollhouse.

Los Angeles
05-18-2009, 02:30 PM
What really needs to happen is for Summer Glau to come over to Dollhouse.

Or my house.

Hicks
05-18-2009, 02:49 PM
Or be my doll. Permanently. And the best part? She's not being mind-controlled. It's really her, just method acting. Permanently.

Kat
05-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Or be my doll. Permanently. And the best part? She's not being mind-controlled. It's really her, just method acting. Permanently.

Dude, that's creepy. Besides, Amy Acker is way hotter. I was greatly pleased to see her part in the finale. :drool:

Anthem
05-20-2009, 01:03 AM
The one on the list that was officially cancelled that I'm really disappointed about is "Life".
Really? I liked that they wrapped up the story arc and called it a day without jumping the shark. Closure is awesome.

"Do you know how I survived those years in prison?" Classic. My wife and I watched that half a dozen times.

count55
05-20-2009, 08:38 AM
Really? I liked that they wrapped up the story arc and called it a day without jumping the shark. Closure is awesome.

"Do you know how I survived those years in prison?" Classic. My wife and I watched that half a dozen times.

Yes...they did do a fantastic job with the story arc.

However, I'm a "character" guy, and that show had some of my favorite characters, particularly Charlie Crews.

Yes, it's a risk that they could overreach, but I thought the show was smart and well-written, and they could have found some interesting places to go before it got used up.

To me, the biggest threat to Dollhouse is still the characters, or lack thereof. They figured out a way to jump start the story, and that helps, but there's still nobody with whom you can make a connection.

If I like the characters, I can forgive weak or episodic story lines (Bones, Castle, House, Psych, Remington Steele). If the story has some substance, then I can get through the fact that there are no worthwhile characters (BSG 2004, Damages). However, I still gravitate towards the characters more.

Once the story is told, then it's told. It doesn't need to be seen again. BSG was an example of a show where, with the exception of going back to check details of the story, I've never watched an episode twice and never will. I know the events, and the people are unimportant (and actually, pretty repellent).

However, if you connect with the characters, they become sort of like friends or really likable acquaintances. You can live with them telling the same stories, because it's kind of nice to see them again.

The great (insert medium here, shows, movies, plays, books) have both a strong story and characters. By strong characters, I mean complete, well-rounded, genuine characters. This is why The Wire and Deadwood were such amazing shows.

So, back to Life, the story was closed, and you have to like the fact that it was wrapped up pretty nicely. However, I just hate seeing broadcast TV lose a show like that, primarily because it's almost certain to be replaced by something worse...perhaps even a talk or reality show.

(BTW...I'm disappointed that TSCC was canceled because it was starting to move. However, I thought it had character problems as well. I really didn't think any of the human characters were particularly strong, and I actually didn't like Sarah Connor. However, I did like the Cameron character, the Shirley Manson character, and I've become a huge fan of Garret Dillahunt, who played John Henry. I thought the John Henry character had a lot of potential.)

bellisimo
05-25-2009, 05:37 AM
just saw the season finale for Dollhouse...

i was bored halfway through it in hopes that they would all just die...is it me or did the characters get worse as time passed on? can't really say that i would be making a big effort to catch season 2...

Hicks
12-04-2009, 07:24 PM
Well, we lost all of our comments about season 2 thus far, but if I recall correctly, when it went out in October, it ended on a strong note.

It's back with two episodes per week the next three Fridays starting tonight.

I saw this article, and it explains what Joss wanted the show to be about, and how it never really got to be what he had in mind. I think what he had in mind, had he pulled it off, could/would have been pioneer television, but network TV was never the right spot to try to have this show. This should have been a cable show.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/12/dollhouse-fox-joss-whedon.html

Pig Nash
12-05-2009, 04:07 AM
Well, we lost all of our comments about season 2 thus far, but if I recall correctly, when it went out in October, it ended on a strong note.

It's back with two episodes per week the next three Fridays starting tonight.

I saw this article, and it explains what Joss wanted the show to be about, and how it never really got to be what he had in mind. I think what he had in mind, had he pulled it off, could/would have been pioneer television, but network TV was never the right spot to try to have this show. This should have been a cable show.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/12/dollhouse-fox-joss-whedon.html

I just watched season 2 so far, and while I'm mad they've cancelled it now, I'm glad in a way. They've really had to amp up the storytelling to get all of it crammed in and this last episode was better than anything they'd done. 2 Tophers, Summer Glau, Echo stuff, Alexis Denisof speaking in his normal voice that sounds like a forced american accent after 5 years of Wesley, and Adelle grabbing that guy's balls. A++

Hicks
12-05-2009, 04:18 PM
Does Summer ever not play someone who either is a robot or crazy?

Pig Nash
12-05-2009, 04:48 PM
Does Summer ever play someone who either is a robot or crazy?

You mean does she ever not?

She was a ballerina on Angel, trapped in a perpetual ballet, but not crazy or a robot. Or a crazy robot.

Hicks
12-05-2009, 05:11 PM
How dare you misquote me. ;)

tora tora
12-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Snowball fight with Echo! http://www.fox.com/holidays09/

Don't fight Jack Bauer, he'll kick your butt.

obnoxiousmodesty
12-06-2009, 07:33 PM
The last three episodes have been excellent. I'm just going to enjoy the run to the end.

Kegboy
12-08-2009, 12:49 AM
I'm just grateful that this show introduced us to the actors who play Sierra and Victor (no, I'm not going to try and spell their names.) The 2nd Topher was amazing work.

Pig Nash
12-08-2009, 02:32 AM
Yeah, for a second I thought they had Topher doing voice work, it was a spot on impression vocally as well as the facial ticks and mannerisms.

Hicks
12-14-2009, 01:00 AM
Just catching up on the two episodes from the other day.

It just figures the show reaches this level now that it's done with. What a waste.

Pig Nash
12-14-2009, 01:37 AM
I think that it's that good because it is done with. I think a) Fox stopped messing with Joss and b)All the major plot stuff for maybe 4 season's worth of episodes is getting packed into 2 seasons.

Pacersfan46
12-14-2009, 04:18 AM
Just catching up on the two episodes from the other day.

It just figures the show reaches this level now that it's done with. What a waste.

I was thinking the same thing when I was watching it. At this point its a several times better show than it was at any point last season. *sigh*

-- Steve --

obnoxiousmodesty
12-15-2009, 08:46 PM
I honestly think that the writers just took 2-3 seasons worth of major future story lines and made it into season 2. We're getting concentrated Whedon, and it's awesome. I'll just keep enjoying until it's over.

Hicks
12-15-2009, 08:48 PM
That certainly seems to be the case w/ Echo. From where she started the season to now being able to completely control her memories, that's a huge leap very quickly.

Hoop
12-26-2009, 02:36 AM
I had gave up on this show after the episode where Echo was a mother with a new baby, just seemed awful and getting worse, I couldn't take it anymore.

I finally decided to give it another try. I've watched episodes 4-10 in just the last few days. Episode 4 is where we find out the back story of Sierra. AMAZING how much better this show is now, not sure what prompted the change, but from that point on it's been like a different show.

I'm actually looking forward to it now, before I was just hoping they'd cancel it and put it out of it's misery.

Hicks
12-26-2009, 02:54 AM
It is canceled. Ironically what is probably causing the sudden increase in quality, btw.

Natston
12-30-2009, 07:40 AM
Is it worth it to start it from episode 1?

Pacersfan46
12-30-2009, 09:06 AM
Is it worth it to start it from episode 1?

I would say yes, because at least they are aware the show is ending, and it should get a proper ending.

I just can't stand it when a show gets none of the loose ends tied up and things haunt me wondering where the story should have gone (Dark Angel, Dead Like Me, and Kings come to mind immediately).

-- Steve --

Hicks
12-30-2009, 12:35 PM
Yeah, just realize that if you start at the beginning, you really need to promise yourself you'll get to season 2 before you bail, because there will be times early that you'll think about it.

Kegboy
12-30-2009, 01:17 PM
Is it worth it to start it from episode 1?

You know, frankly, I'd say no. I would seriously watch the orginal pilot (not the reworked one that aired), the last couple eps from season 1 with Alpha (they're not great, but they'll get you up to speed with how the show is, not how it could have been), Epitaph and then season 2.

Kegboy
01-09-2010, 02:03 PM
HOLY ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!


Yeah, didn't see that coming.

Hicks
01-09-2010, 02:59 PM
It's almost getting comical with how often they're changing the game, so to speak.

Hoop
01-09-2010, 08:04 PM
HOLY ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!


Yeah, didn't see that coming.
No kidding!

Not quite Dexter season ending surprising, but Holy **** is right.

Pacersfan46
01-13-2010, 05:28 PM
Yeah .... I about crapped my pants at the Dr. Saunders thing, and then the ending .... WTF? If that's who it is .... then he knew what they were doing would expose him. Then let it happen .... I think that boggles my mind more than anything. There's some more serious twists coming.

-- Steve --

Anthem
01-25-2010, 12:23 AM
Well, that's it. Not bad.

Pig Nash
01-25-2010, 01:46 AM
Wait, I thought Epitaph 2 was this Friday cuz of the Haiti thing two days ago. Is that not the case?

Hicks
01-25-2010, 02:17 AM
It airs this Friday.

Anthem
01-25-2010, 04:23 PM
It airs this Friday.
That makes more sense. I figured he was leaving things unresolved to clear the way for a movie.

Kegboy
01-29-2010, 11:58 PM
Meh. Was better than the last ep, but still a tremendous disappointment compared to Epitaph One.

You know, maybe it's about time that Joss found a new gimmick when it comes to the whole tragic love thing. Was anyone the least bit fazed when you know what happened? He keeps this up and I'll have to start calling him M. Night Whedon.

Pig Nash
01-30-2010, 12:41 AM
I was a little fazed. I thought it was an excellent finale. Wrapped up as many loose ends as they could. And not all the love was tragic:

Tony and Priya and T all get to live happily ever after.

I'm gonna miss Dollhouse but I'm not sorry it's over. They did a hell of a job with it and now maybe more Dr. Horrible or something new that only Joss (or Jed or Mo or Tim) has thought of.

Hicks
01-30-2010, 01:00 AM
I just never fell in love with the characters of this show.

As a whole, this was a decent show, but I'll never love this show like I did Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. It's just not the same.

As for the finale, I'm just so numb to these "twist" deaths now. I mean not only am I used to it from the past, but since I never really felt strongly for any of these guys/gals, I wasn't upset either.

Is this the first time Joss actually made it all the way to a post-post-apocalyptic world? Think his next show will just take place entirely during/after the apocalypse?

I feel like I should say more because of my past and I suppose present interest in Whedon's work.

Season 1 took too long to get going, and after seeing the original pilot, I totally/mostly blame FOX for this. It ended pretty well, and the Epitaph One ep was good.

Season 2 was better, but it felt like they crammed seasons 2, 3, 4, and 5 into it, and while I understand, it did feel rushed and "too much too soon" to me, and that probably hurt as much as it helped IMO.

I don't know what else to say, really.

Where does Joss go from here? No, not in terms of networks or cable or the Internet, but with his stories.

Can he make one that doesn't get splattered with heartbreak, death, depression, and an apocalypse?

Could we collectively dare him to make a show that's somehow entertaining AND relatively "happy?"

I mean, let's be honest: The saving grace of Firefly ending when it did is it spared us watching our beloved crew being ripped apart, crushed, and destroyed in mind, body, and soul any worse than they were in Serenity.

Joss needs to find a new tree to bark up.

Peck
01-30-2010, 01:16 AM
Whedon is doing superb work on the digital X-Men series on Itunes. I mean downright fantastic writing and storytelling.

Now on that note I've been waiting almost a year to post this because I don't want to p!ss on anyone’s parade but now that the series is over I have to ask.

How much of this is not just on "Fox" or any of the networks for that matter and how much of this is on Whedon for taking the security blanket of network TV?

How many shows in a row now have I read that "the network" has screwed up his story etc.

He is a big enough name he can almost guarantee to write his own contract to work on syfy or spike or even USA.

So why does he keep choosing to go to free networks where it is a known fact that they have to have a quick turn around on their dollar to keep shows on the air, thus never allowing a slow buildup to a story like he likes to do.

Much the same way as Shawn Cassidy, yes that Shawn Cassidy, needs to never go to a network again. He should go right now to the Chiller network or maybe even syfy network to make one of his off beat shows.

Also Hicks I hear you about barking up the same tree. I gave up on Kevin Smith for the exact same thing (different types of stories of course but it became clear he was a one trick pony).

Pig Nash
01-30-2010, 01:19 AM
I don't agree at all Hicks.

Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and Dollhouse are all very hopeful shows. Bad things happen yes, apocalyptically bad things but people always find a way to persevere.

Buffy sacrifices her life and then comes back and has to deal with continuing to fight. She saves the world again from Willow and eventually THE apocalypse. Things don't go the way she wants but she doesn't let that slow her down. She says screw destiny, I'm creating an army of slayers. I'm in charge of my life.

Angel fights against evil of greed and bureaucracy personified in Wolfram and Hart. They try to bring about the apocalypse almost daily and it's not even that big of a deal. Angel and company are always fighting to stop that. To prove that the little guy matters, that big bads in real life or fantasy can't stop us. There will always be another dragon to slay, but that's half the fun. Sure Fred dying and being inhabited by Illyria is tragic but where else could Fred had gone? Everyone loved her, she was perfect. Gunn found his place beside Angel even though he felt so bad about that. Wes went from goof to sidekick to boss to well meaning traitor to outcast to fulfilled man in love with Fred doing work he believed in to inconsolable wreck to heroic taker down of the system. He's just well rounded and bad things happen to good and bad people. It's how we react that's interesting. Good times aren't formative. Angel and his team are always going to fight. That's the main thing with that show.

These two aren't spoilery.

Firefly is as easy as the theme song. You can't take the sky from me. You can't tie me down. And they're big damn heroes too, so also we won't be lied to, and we want what's right.

Dollhouse is about how no matter how hard we try to be different things to different people, we'll always be who we are. Humanity will always go on no matter what happens to us, even if we lose us along the way.

The messages of these shows is positive despite the bad things that happen to everyone in them.

Hicks
01-30-2010, 01:21 AM
Peck,

I think Whedon would do much better on cable.

I believe the reason he went back to FOX for this one is he wanted to make this show with the lead actress, and she is bound by her contract to be on FOX for (to me) an unknown number of shows or amount of time.

Hicks
01-30-2010, 01:28 AM
Firefly was hopeful, I agree. Serenity, eh, not as much.

Angel, well...


If you ignore the comic book "season 6", they're all dead anyway; at least that's how I always concluded it judging where they leave off in season 5. Even the comic confirms it was THE apocalypse (which, by the way, means Buffy only got a year off before she was smacked in the face with the "end" of the world due to circumstances she couldn't control), though of course they have everyone in the alley going one place or another.

I guess I'll agree with the argument about Buffy, though I've never appreciated how much season 6 went out of its way to make it depressing.

As for Dollhouse, part of my problem is my personal beliefs with regards to how you define and/or theoretically "create/modify/destroy" a person, and they spend a lot of time deconstructing the human condition, but I realize that's just my personal issue.

But beyond that, pretty much anyone not a doll or Ballard is a bad person doing bad things (sorry, the fact that they have layers doesn't cover that up to me), so I never felt a lot of sympathy for them. While sometimes sad, they all got what they deserved IMO.

The only major happiness was the family you mentioned. Ballard doesn't live to see the rebuilding, Echo's a walking mind-**** (though that doesn't seem to bother her anymore; which I never really bought).

Pig Nash
01-30-2010, 01:33 AM
Peck,

I think Joss will go to FX or Syfy or something next. Or maybe do something online. At least I hope so. I don't like these 1 and 2 season long shows.

Kegboy
02-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Arrgh! I hate when I write a long post and the post fails. Anyway, too make a long story short, look at this list.

Angel (recovered)
Buffy (recovered)
Tara
Anya
Spike (recovered)
Doyle
Cordy
Fred
Wes
Book
Wash
Whiskey
Bennett
Paul
Topher

Sure, when Buffy killed Angel, it was absolutely heartbreaking, but talk about diminishing returns. Joss couldn't even get through Dr. Horrible without killing the girl (which everyone saw coming the second she appeared.)

That's the real issue. Killing people off isn't the problem, for the most part it's done very well. But if you keep doing it over and over and over again, your audience gets numb to it. While I don't personally think this was the issue, it could be argued that's why the audience had such a problem investing in the characters of Dollhouse, when you know Joss is just gonna kill half of them anyway.