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View Full Version : So... can we talk about TJ?



Anthem
01-22-2009, 01:49 PM
I wasn't thrilled when we got TJ, and I thought the folks saying "top 5 PG" were nuts. But I expected him to be better than he's been, even without the injury issues. I thought ChicagoJ (who doesn't look at all like his avatar, by the way) was far too harsh in his early criticism of Ford, but so far his analysis has been right on the money.

So what's up with TJ? I'm not sure we're much better with him on the court than with Jack, who I consider the ideal backup PG. I certainly don't like the two-PG backcourt that we keep running. Will he get better? Is this just a slump? Injury? Does it relate to who he's on the court with? He seemed to be playing far better next to Quis than Jack... coincidence?

It would suck for him to lose a third starting job on 3 teams, but right now it's not out of the realm of possibility (and here I'm assuming that Jack's been getting the nod purely for health reasons).

Thoughts on our "starting" PG?

Bball
01-22-2009, 01:54 PM
He looked pretty good to start the season.

"go go go" may be the problem.

Anthem
01-22-2009, 01:59 PM
He looked pretty good to start the season.

"go go go" may be the problem.
Lots of players look good to start the season and then crater. It's usually an indication that they're not as good as their earlier performance indicated.

Regardless, plenty of his difficulties are hard to pin on the system.

ChicagoJ
01-22-2009, 02:03 PM
ChicagoJ (who doesn't look at all like his avatar, by the way)

Isn't my avatar Dick LeBeau? I'm waiting a couple more weeks to change it.

:fingerscr

EDIT:

PS, I'll stay out of this discussion. You all know my opinion already.

OakMoses
01-22-2009, 02:07 PM
I think our offense is not well suited for TJ. He's not good without the ball and our offense is focused on him not overdribbling. He comes down and passes to a big in the high post and then he's pretty much useless because he doesn't cut well or have an excellent outside shot. When he's effective is when he breaks the offense and takes his man off the dribble, but this is exactly what O'Brien doesn't want him to do.

I always assumed that TJ's play would improve when Dunleavy came back because our offense would spread the floor better. Since he's still battling injuries, we haven't seen if this is true or not.

Another factor is that he seems to be better at passing to interior players after beating his man than at kicking out to open shooters. Since we have bigs who are not good at finishing around the rim, this is probably hurting his play a bit as well.

Unclebuck
01-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Please find me anyone who ever said that TJ is or ever was a top 5 point guard.


TJ has been exactly what I thought he was when he is healthy - an above average starting NBA point guard. But he hasn't been healthy in a couple of months.

I don't think O'Brien likes Ford's style of play though. Ford tends to want to dominate the ball and always make the scoring /assisting pass where as OB likes a point guard to move the ball and pass instead of trying to do everything off the dribble.

I'm going to go searching for some early threads on TJ, because I don't think anypone ever suggeted he was a top 5.

Pacersfan46
01-22-2009, 02:13 PM
Honestly, I'd rather not ..... I'm starting to agree with ChicagoJ, and that hurts my soul because I really don't want to on this. Yet every time he goes to the rim lately, I vomit a little bit in my mouth.

Yes, it's that bad.

-- Steve --

nerveghost
01-22-2009, 02:14 PM
i've been wondering about TJ - He plays as many minutes as Jack on most occasions, so I'm wondering if O'Brien's decision to bring him off the bench was due to his play, and not his back problems.

Either way, color me disappointed thus far. If he ever makes it to the starting lineup alongside Dun, maybe we'll learn more.

Peck
01-22-2009, 02:17 PM
Honestly, I'd rather not ..... I'm starting to agree with ChicagoJ, and that hurts my soul because I really don't want to on this. Yet every time he goes to the rim lately, I vomit a little bit in my mouth.

Yes, it's that bad.

-- Steve --

I'm pretty much there with you.

TJ has been massively dissapointing to me, even before the injury. The only time he ever makes a differance IMO is when he is scoring the ball and frankly I just have never loved point guards who are scorers first.

As to losing his starting job, I think that has already occured. Yes, he still has some injury issues but I think it's pretty clear that O'Brien is going to start Jack. In fact I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?

Unclebuck
01-22-2009, 02:21 PM
Most of you are way, way underestimating his injuries - the man can barely walk and you are saying he has "some injury issues".

I couldn't find a thread devoted to him from eariler in the season - probably buried in the postgame threads.

Peck, TJ has always been a scoring point guard - that is what he does - that is his game.

BRushWithDeath
01-22-2009, 02:25 PM
In fact I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?


If he does I guarantee it won't be in a winning effort.

Pacersfan46
01-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Most of you are way, way underestimating his injuries - the man can barely walk and you are saying he has "some injury issues".

I couldn't find a thread devoted to him from eariler in the season - probably buried in the postgame threads

If he can 'barely walk' he certainly wouldn't be capable of running. Let alone blowing by defenders. I will never buy injuries as an excuse. Even with myself.

After I got shot, I have/had a 10 inch scar down my stomach. My friends knew this and we were playing a game, and as someone drove to the rim he pushed off on my stomach with his forearm. It hurt, and I winced in pain. He apologized, but what was my reaction?

I told him "if I can't go all out, or am too injured to play all out ... my *** shouldn't be out here, so don't apologize and play like you always would"

Same for TJ

-- Steve --

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-22-2009, 02:29 PM
He can barely walk yet he's in for most of the 4th quarter during a blowout loss? I don't buy it. I think Jack is the starter and TJ was playing with the backups because that is what he is.

His quickness is useless when he can't finish around the rim. Either he misses a layup, or he throws a wild pass out from under the rim and it goes straight to the other team for a fast break the other way. This is all we see from TJ. This and his little pull-up mid range jumper which hasn't been going in that often lately.

CableKC
01-22-2009, 02:31 PM
From what I can tell whenever Ford is on the court...I agree that he has the tendency to over-dribble the ball. IMHO, he has Flip Murray syndrome....where he tends to tries to do fancy cross-overs and show off some dazzling dribbling skills, but this tendency often leads to him losing the ball....dribbling it off his foot or dribbling into some dark corner of the paint where he's surrounded by the opposing Frontcourt.

He's the type of player that is an on-and-off type player. Depending on the team we play, he could dominate the other team simply cuz they have no answer for a super quick but small scoring PG.....but more often then not....I see that super quick but Small scoring PG has poor shot selection and often puts himself in a position where he will somehow turn the ball over.

But to be fair.....he isn't playing at 100%....which I think is still affecting his game.....so I will hold complete judgement on him until he's healthy ( if that ever happens ).

As to whether I think that he will be a long-term solution at the PG spot, I don't think that we have any choice.....it's going to be hard to move his contract.

Anthem
01-22-2009, 02:42 PM
Please find me anyone who ever said that TJ is or ever was a top 5 point guard.

I'm going to go searching for some early threads on TJ, because I don't think anyone ever suggested he was a top 5.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40494


Those [i.e., "Jay's" -ed] statements just reek of ignorance. Ford can run a team. He is arguably one the top five pgs in the league when it comes to being a pure point guard. Besides his size he is nothing like Travis Best. Ford will push it and try to make something happen not just pound the ball for 15-20 seconds. If you're going to make comments about a guy atleast know a little something about him.


If Ford stays healthy, he's a top 10 point guard. Merz is right, he's a top 5 pure point guard and he can also give you 14-18 points a night, depending on minutes played.


Good post I totally agree


This is the most excited I've been about a PG since Jax. He's potentially a top 5 PG, and if healthy, I expect nothing less. And I expect him to improve his shooting under JOB.


I really wonder if any of these guys have seen TJ play before. His main weakness is his health. Nobody around the leaque denies he has the ability to be a top 10 or top 5 PG.


yep, pretty close.

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating - Point Guard

1 Chris Paul, NOR
2 Chauncey Billups, DET
3 Steve Nash, PHO
4 Deron Williams, UTH
5 Jose Calderon, TOR
6 T.J. Ford, IND
7 Tony Parker, SAS
8 Baron Davis, LAC
9 Andre Miller, PHI
10 Jason Terry, DAL

...oh snap.

Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.

RaptorsFan
01-22-2009, 02:43 PM
Should have thrown in a bit more, and asked for Calderon, i think TJ is a better fit for us and Calde for you. But then again, if we traded Calde, we would want more then JO so nevermind :P

Let me say this, the year the raptors won 47, TJ was excellent, when he is healthy and playing well, he is almost unguardable and creates open shots for others, he has a bad tendency to be out of control, he can win you games or take 5 shots in a row and lose you them, you need some decent vet leadership to keep him in line and i dont think your coach does a decent job or his teammates, he needs to have his leash tugged sometimes but believe me, his ceiling is WAY higher then Jacks

Spirit
01-22-2009, 02:49 PM
I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?
No, O'Brien doesn't have a problem playing Diener or Ford so I am absolutely sure this would never happen.

Unclebuck
01-22-2009, 03:08 PM
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40494













Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.



Good find and interesting read now. Actually only 1 person said top 5 point guard - several said top 10. Luckily I didn't say anything like that. I think when Ford is healthy he is probably somewhere around the 11th or 12th best point guard in the NBA. But he's only been healthy for about 6 or 7 games this season.

My comments in that thread seemed to suggest that I knew we were losing talent in the trade and yet the trade had to be made.

Edit- did anyone else hear Brunner on 950 yesterday saying that JO told JOB before last season that he wanted to be traded. - that was news to me

CableKC
01-22-2009, 03:13 PM
No, O'Brien doesn't have a problem playing Diener or Ford so I am absolutely sure this would never happen.
JO'B will find a way.......Jack can play backup SG minutes to fill up that 48 minutes even if Ford and Diener are playing.

BRushWithDeath
01-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Edit- did anyone else hear Brunner on 950 yesterday saying that JO told JOB before last season that he wanted to be traded. - that was news to me

I didn't hear that on the radio but I know for a fact JO wanted out before JOB was even named coach.

Justin Tyme
01-22-2009, 03:18 PM
As to whether I think that he will be a long-term solution at the PG spot, I don't think that we have any choice.....it's going to be hard to move his contract.


:ding: You hit the nail on the head.

I felt after the trades the Pacers had cured their PG ills, but I've come to the decision that's just not so.

What I want to know is if players aren't fitting O'Brien system then why did Bird trade for them. Why bring in players that don't fit his system? It reminds me of trading Cro's expiring, trading AJ, signing Sarunus and Baston, and drafting Williams and White. Just how did any of that help Carlisle? All these decisions lead to exactly what? Oh yeah, we still have a injury ridden Daniels to show for it.

Something is amiss here. And it all comes back to who is making the decisions on player personnel. Somebody isn't doing their job. Either they truly don't recognize the type of talent needed, they can't recognize a player with the talent they need, or they just don't know what talent is. JMOAA

Jonathan
01-22-2009, 03:28 PM
TJ Ford is decent. He is not the reason we are losing games. He won us games against the Thunder & Detroit this year.

BRushWithDeath
01-22-2009, 03:32 PM
TJ Ford is decent. He is not the reason we are losing games. He won us games against the Thunder & Detroit this year.

The fact that somebody has to win us a game at home against the Thunder is pretty telling about this team.

ChicagoJ
01-22-2009, 03:32 PM
in fairness,

Because Anthem started this thread, we're about to see a 5-game stretch where TJ plays much bigger than he is, can actually find the passing lanes and deliver the ball, and finishes well around the rim. Then we'll all look silly.

(and then he'll return to normal: exceptional only with his quickness, average passer and defender, below average court vision and shot, and lousy around the rim. Capable of making occasional plays that make one think he should be better than he is. It generally takes Hall-of-Fame, or all-pro skills, for a player under 6'1" to really make a difference.)

Jonathan
01-22-2009, 03:37 PM
The fact that somebody has to win us a game at home against the Thunder is pretty telling about this team.

We could of lost that one. Keep in mind that was before they picked up Kristic.

naptownmenace
01-22-2009, 03:40 PM
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40494


LOL.

In my defense, I did say that he has the "ability" to be a top 10 or top 5 player. I never actually said he was a top 10 or top 5 player.

Injuries are keeping him from reaching that level. He's had some phenomenal games when he's been healthy but he's been hobbled for at least the past 15 games. Oh yeah... Jim O'Brien is stupid to play him at anything less than 100%. Diener is as good as if not better than the hobbling TJ we've seen lately.

BRushWithDeath
01-22-2009, 03:40 PM
We could of lost that one. Keep in mind that was before they picked up Kristic.

That's my point. The Thunder were terrible then. The fact that it took TJ playing out of his mind in the 4th and McRoberts turning things around after halftime tells just how bad this team is.

JayRedd
01-22-2009, 03:57 PM
I'd rather not.

naptownmenace
01-22-2009, 03:58 PM
We could of lost that one. Keep in mind that was before they picked up Kristic.

He also hit the game winner against the Sixers when Danny was out with the flu. He had those 2 near triple-double games early on too.

He has the ability but he doesn't have much lift in his legs right now with that back injury.

CableKC
01-22-2009, 04:11 PM
No, O'Brien doesn't have a problem playing Diener or Ford so I am absolutely sure this would never happen.
JO'B will find a way.......Jack can play backup SG minutes to fill up that 48 minutes even if Ford and Diener are playing.

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2009, 04:19 PM
His quickness is useless when he can't finish around the rim. Either he misses a layup, or he throws a wild pass out from under the rim and it goes straight to the other team for a fast break the other way. This is all we see from TJ. This and his little pull-up mid range jumper which hasn't been going in that often lately.
And as Anthem said, credit ChicagoJ for printing this exact warning on TJ way back when.

It's been frustrating, but ironically part of the frustration comes from the fact that it's tough to complain when you are at the same time happy it's not Tinsley/Saras/AJ out there running the show. It's like "Jack's playing terrible...but", same with TJ.

It's a bizarre love/hate thing. I've enjoyed them being on the team but they both are failing to get the job done. It's been really bad since the first month.

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2009, 04:23 PM
Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.
I want to give that post a hug.
:hug2:

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-22-2009, 04:43 PM
And as Anthem said, credit ChicagoJ for printing this exact warning on TJ way back when.

It's been frustrating, but ironically part of the frustration comes from the fact that it's tough to complain when you are at the same time happy it's not Tinsley/Saras/AJ out there running the show. It's like "Jack's playing terrible...but", same with TJ.

It's a bizarre love/hate thing. I've enjoyed them being on the team but they both are failing to get the job done. It's been really bad since the first month.

Maybe it's just me, but it looks like the offense runs smoother with Diener out there. Maybe it's because he knows JOB's system better, or because he's not looking for his shot first (minus that sequence in Phx where he jacked up about 4 threes in a row). On the break I always see him looking around and hitting players in rhythm. On the other hand TJ drives head first to the rim and once he gets there, becomes indecisive and eventually turns it over. To sum it up, Diener just looks more under control.

But like you said, when you think about what we had, we can't complain. We were begging to find a PG when we had Tinsley, and beggars can't be choosers. However, I prefer Jamaal's play making ability over TJ's. If only all the other baggage didn't come with it.

Anthem
01-22-2009, 04:48 PM
I want to give that post a hug.
:hug2:
:laugh: Now I just need to find the article about the original Dun/Jackson deal to feel vindicated. And the one where Bill Simmons gets my back by listing all of the players that have had sub-par years after international summer play.

Glad you liked that line, though. It's my one asset on this forum... most of the guys here know more about bball than me, but I tend to remember the historical setting better than most.

Anthem
01-22-2009, 04:50 PM
Maybe it's just me, but it looks like the offense runs smoother with Diener out there.
It's not just you. The offense is smoother (although Diener should never shoot a 3 unless it's immediately after receiving the ball... he's rarely close when he shoots coming off the dribble).

The problem, though, is the defense. Watch sometime when Diener comes in. The other team immediately changes their attack plan to go right at him every time until Obie pulls him out. The dude is a bigger liability on D than Jamaal ever was, and that's saying something.

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2009, 05:36 PM
:laugh: Now I just need to find the article about the original Dun/Jackson deal to feel vindicated. And the one where Bill Simmons gets my back by listing all of the players that have had sub-par years after international summer play.

Glad you liked that line, though. It's my one asset on this forum... most of the guys here know more about bball than me, but I tend to remember the historical setting better than most.
I'm a fan of accountability, which was a major factor in moving from Star to PD. That and moderation...oh, and pictures. Especially from Heywood.


Dun/Jack - I still feel that's a wash. Jack is passing the ball better than Dun (Jack's poor passing was a myth) and defends better. But Dun is now the more reliable shooter and doesn't bring the emotional baggage (though emotional fire is also lost with that).

The real kick in the deal is that Troy is outplaying Harrington at this point. Meanwhile Ike and Saras come up as the most worthless portion of that deal. Hard to believe that the W/L was supposed to come down to Ike. By that measure the Pacers got killed, but here I am as the guy who thought they got killed saying it's evened out and moved slightly to the Pacers favor.


End sidebar, just proving my love of accountability, even for myself. :D

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Agree with both of you that Diener at PG has made the offense look better. Also he's big on keeping TOs down (where was he when Rick was coaching) which holds down the fastbreak points they give up.

But they do attack him hard. Oh well, it's rebuild-ING, not rebuilt. :D

Hoop
01-22-2009, 05:55 PM
I'm very dissapointed with TJ Ford's play, I thought he'd be much better. If he's injury's are as bad as some say, he shouldn't be playing at all till he's healthy.

90% of the time the dude plays with blinders on, he can not see the open man and at least half of his shots are bad decisions.

I thought our PG trouble would be over, with JT, Jack and Diener. I was horribly wrong, they are all lacking. No starters in the bunch. Jack's not a bad combo guard coming off the bench, Diener's good for short stints.

Ford just drives me crazy, he's the most off balance, clumzy little guy I've ever seen. How many times can he dribble the ball off his own feet. He'd still turn the ball over in a gym by himself.

vnzla81
01-22-2009, 06:51 PM
Like I said before the pacers need to draft or trade for a point guard. I also rather see Diener as the number one point guard, the problem is his defense, but we already know that nobody plays defense in the team. I am sure that if the pacers had better defensive players, Diener could be starting and playing even better, Just look at Steve Nash two years ago when Marion and Bell were helping on defense. I like Diener over any of the other guys, he never makes stupid TO and is always looking for the open guy.

Will Galen
01-22-2009, 07:38 PM
What do you mean Anthem starting a thread about someone other than Danny Granger? How dare you! May you have gremey, grimey, gopher guts smeared on your sail!

BruceLeeroy
01-22-2009, 07:50 PM
Hopefully its just his injury holding him back, but that still doesn't explain some his shot selection. What's been bothering me most though is his mentality on the court. He doesn't seem as engaged in the game as he did early on in the season. His defense and desicion making have reminded me of JT here recently.:eek:

MagicRat
01-22-2009, 08:07 PM
Edit- did anyone else hear Brunner on 950 yesterday saying that JO told JOB before last season that he wanted to be traded. - that was news to me

Wells wrote about it following the last Raptors game.......

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090117/SPORTS04/901170387/1088/SPORTS04

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com
Saw it coming
Pacers coach Jim O'Brien knew his time with O'Neal was short term.

He said O'Neal told him shortly after he was hired in May 2007 that he didn't want to be part of the Pacers anymore.

"He said he would prefer to be elsewhere," O'Brien said. "He did everything he could to be healthy for us last year; it just didn't work out. It was clear that's what he wanted to do. If somebody wants to be elsewhere, it's better to allow them to be elsewhere."

O'Neal, who was traded to Toronto last summer, averaged 13.6 points and 6.7 rebounds in 42 games last season for the Pacers.

"You always want people that are happy to be on the team you're coaching," O'Brien said. "It doesn't matter what it is. Jermaine explained the reasons why he thought it was best to get a new start. I couldn't disagree with him."

BlueNGold
01-22-2009, 08:57 PM
TJ and Jack are making Diener look ok...which is certainly not what I expected. Diener is actually better for our offense than either of them.

All things considered, each of our PG's have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not entirely obvious which one is best for this team. I would probably go with TJ.

Bball
01-22-2009, 09:26 PM
In fact I wonder if Jack will have a 48 min. game this year?

OBrien might play TJ at SG, Diener at PG, Dunleavy at SF, Danny at PF, and get Jack some minutes at center to round out his 48 mins... plus give Obrien an extra small ball thrill.

imawhat
01-22-2009, 09:47 PM
As someone in the pro-TJ Ford camp, I'll admit he's been very disappointing this season. Either I had him overrated, or he's having a bad year (or both). He certainly played better in Milwaukee and Toronto.

In my opinion, he's never been comfortable in O'Brien's system, but I thought he was good enough to adapt. And for the past month and a half, the injuries have made his game worse. Injuries aside, his decision-making has been a little suspect. He has the ability to make great passes (even in the post), but looks like he has Tinsleyitis (lack of trust in his teammates).

If he plays close to his potential for the second half of the season, this thread may become a distant memory, but I fear that it might not.

Infinite MAN_force
01-22-2009, 09:53 PM
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40494













Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.


My only sin is putting to much stock in Hollinger's stats, which is mostly what I based my opinion on. ;)

I do think TJ is much better than he has looked lately, the injury is most definatly having an effect. I also think saying he has poor court vision is just incorrect... It is more his decison making, he calls his own number too much... Given some time to get healthy and better acclimated, he could potentially be pretty good for us.. its just hard to be waiting around for ANOTHER injured PG.

Anthem
01-23-2009, 12:28 AM
Ok, somebody explain the injury thing. How long has he been injured? A dozen games? This goes back a lot further than that.

Anthem
01-23-2009, 12:30 AM
"He did everything he could to be healthy for us last year; it just didn't work out. It was clear that's what he wanted to do.
What? I thought he was dogging it because he had poor work habits!

imawhat
01-23-2009, 01:24 AM
Ok, somebody explain the injury thing. How long has he been injured? A dozen games? This goes back a lot further than that.

I seem to remember him listed day-to-day with an abdominal strain right before he missed the Golden State game with a groin. That was 17 games ago.

Merz
01-23-2009, 02:24 AM
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpeg

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40494













Oh snap is right. My bball knowledge is second to lots of people, but I know what I read.

I wasn't saying he was or is a top 5 point guard, I was stating that he is arguably a top five pure point guard....this knowledge was based off how he played with the Bucks and his first season with the Raptors. I watched a total of less than 10 games all of last season (due to school, work ect.). I was not aware of TJ's change from a pass first PG to the over-dribbling ball hog that he has become lately and that he apparently was last season with the Raptors.

I don't know what caused the change in his game. It's kinda like how Al Harrington's game changed after he tore his ACL. Before that alot of Pacer fans saw him as the defensive stopper on this team (before Artest showed up) and a great player off the bench. Now he's a chucker that doesn't do much else.

Believe me, Ford has inherent pure pass-first point guard skills, he is just playing stupid.

Peck
01-23-2009, 02:49 AM
What? I thought he was dogging it because he had poor work habits!

To be fair this is coming from O'Brien. You know the guy who did not suspend Tinsley last year. Also the same guy who would not let players play if they wouldn't practice so.....

Trader Joe
01-23-2009, 02:54 AM
Ford's problem right now IMO has been what it always has been and always will be, he's a bit of a moron.

Not in the Tinsley sense, well actually maybe in the Tinsley sense, but he just doesn't have the off the court issues. They do have many similarities though, both of them do have some truly incredible talents (Tinsley his ballhandling, and Ford his quickness), but they often think they are better than they actually are and put themselves in positions that they can't easily get out of and end up with a pointless turnover or a forced shot.

Trader Joe
01-23-2009, 02:57 AM
I wasn't saying he was or is a top 5 point guard, I was stating that he is arguably a top five pure point guard....this knowledge was based off how he played with the Bucks and his first season with the Raptors. I watched a total of less than 10 games all of last season (due to school, work ect.). I was not aware of TJ's change from a pass first PG to the over-dribbling ball hog that he has become lately and that he apparently was last season with the Raptors.

I don't know what caused the change in his game. It's kinda like how Al Harrington's game changed after he tore his ACL. Before that alot of Pacer fans saw him as the defensive stopper on this team (before Artest showed up) and a great player off the bench. Now he's a chucker that doesn't do much else.

Believe me, Ford has inherent pure pass-first point guard skills, he is just playing stupid.

Ford was never really a pass first point guard. Particularly in the NBA. Maybe a hybrid, but not a pure pass first point guard. He has always played too out of control to be that.

RaptorsFan
01-23-2009, 11:19 AM
lol @ anyone that thinks TJ was ever a pass 1st PG, you getting the Toronto PGs mixed up

naptownmenace
01-23-2009, 01:19 PM
I seem to remember him listed day-to-day with an abdominal strain right before he missed the Golden State game with a groin. That was 17 games ago.

Yep, it started with the groin injury and then he came back and injured his back in practice, IIRC.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised because one major reason the trade to Toronto was considered a fair deal was because we were trading one injury prone player for another.

Naptown_Seth
01-23-2009, 01:29 PM
The clear sign that it's not as simple as injuries and is a real problem - fast breaks. TJ calls his own number on a majority of plus numbers breaks for the Pacers. Guys are running lanes pretty well this year and he almost never rewards them. Often he gets a foul/bailout which is okay, but frankly I'd just as soon Danny or Graham throw one down trailing from the wing than risk TJ flipping up some out of control thing against the only defender back.

At first I thought it was just spur of the moment, but it's repeating too often to be that. And it's not injury based because in those situations he's in the spot to make that play, the physically easier play, and he chooses not to.

It's really annoying at this point given the terrible history of guys not getting out on breaks and filling lanes well in the past. Finally they do and no one rewards them for it.

ChicagoJ
01-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Right, with the ball in hand, he is a missed layup waiting to happen. Good enough (quick enough) to get to the rim, but too small to either finish the play himself or find and make the pass.

Remind you of anyone?

imawhat
01-23-2009, 05:08 PM
The clear sign that it's not as simple as injuries and is a real problem - fast breaks. TJ calls his own number on a majority of plus numbers breaks for the Pacers. Guys are running lanes pretty well this year and he almost never rewards them. Often he gets a foul/bailout which is okay, but frankly I'd just as soon Danny or Graham throw one down trailing from the wing than risk TJ flipping up some out of control thing against the only defender back.

At first I thought it was just spur of the moment, but it's repeating too often to be that. And it's not injury based because in those situations he's in the spot to make that play, the physically easier play, and he chooses not to.

It's really annoying at this point given the terrible history of guys not getting out on breaks and filling lanes well in the past. Finally they do and no one rewards them for it.


This is very true. I like that he's willing to take the shot, but there have been a lot of missed points because he's not making the best decisions. This seems coachable.

Merz
01-23-2009, 11:16 PM
Ford was never really a pass first point guard. Particularly in the NBA. Maybe a hybrid, but not a pure pass first point guard. He has always played too out of control to be that.

As a rookie TJ had absolutely no range past 10 feet. He wasn't on the floor because of his scoring ability or his defense of course. It's because he could penetrate and make plays and actually play like a point guard and not an undersized shooting guard. The guy also led the nation in assist as a freshman at Texas, I know that was college but you don't lead the nation in assist if you're looking for your own shot over half the time.

His game has changed since then....apparently Raptorsfan has forgot about TJ's first season in Toronto

Kid Minneapolis
01-23-2009, 11:39 PM
I don't mind TJ's play for the most part, because he's been injured off and on, he hasn't looked right.

But I have been disappointed by his injuries... I just hoped he had gotten past all that. Evidently not. I think he's a good PG when he's healthy. But we had one of those for awhile now... it's just kinda frustrating.

If he can get healthy and stay that way, I think you guys will be changing your tune.

Hicks
01-24-2009, 12:05 AM
The thing is, I expected him to be either fully healthy or out for the season with a spine issue. The last thing I expected was nagging stuff like this. Did he have these kinds of things before? My understanding was that he was usually very healthy aside from the spinal injuries. No back spasms or anything else unrelated to the spine.

RaptorsFan
01-24-2009, 12:13 AM
Ive seen a few pacers games then year and ive yet to see TJ play like he can, i think when he is really healthy, which he hasnt really been all year, you guys are going to get excited ;)

Anthem
01-24-2009, 12:44 AM
The thing is, I expected him to be either fully healthy or out for the season with a spine issue. The last thing I expected was nagging stuff like this. Did he have these kinds of things before? My understanding was that he was usually very healthy aside from the spinal injuries. No back spasms or anything else unrelated to the spine.
That was the word.

jeffg-body
01-24-2009, 12:51 AM
It is too bad that TJ has had the luck with nagging injuries this year. When he looked much better and now he seems to be trying to force things to happen. Maybe with Dun returning it will help alleviate some of that responsibility of running the offense. :buddies:

Mr. Sobchak
01-24-2009, 03:03 AM
That was the word.

He's had two relatively healthy years and two years where he's missed a lot of games. During 05-06 he played in 72 games and during 06-07 he played 75. He had the one bad season because of the Horford hit and I forget what happened his rookie season.

MillerTime
01-24-2009, 04:53 AM
I think Ford did a great job last game (against Houston). I like what JOB did by bringing him off the bench until he fully deserves being the starter over Jack.

I think JOB also did a great job in limiting Ford's mins so he doesnt re-injure his back. After seeing Ford tonight, he seems that he is recovering from his injury

Justin Tyme
01-24-2009, 07:25 AM
Yes, Ford had a game where he scored points last night, but it seemed like he was constantly dribbling into problems as always. He penetrates too far with no where to go, no one to pass to, and shoots some terrible shots b/c of it. He needs to look for other players sooner on his penetration and not when he is stopped with no place to go. How often do you see him hitting a cutter for a basket as a PG? Getting the ball in the hands of another player at the right time? To me he does not have the awareness I thought he would have. His whole game is built around his speed and not the other parts of a PG's game. Hopefully, things will change the rest of the season. JMOAA

Unclebuck
01-24-2009, 09:29 AM
He looked healthy so he played well. He's never been a pure point guard, he is a scorer, always have been always will be - why are so many of you just discovering this

count55
01-24-2009, 09:43 AM
He's had two relatively healthy years and two years where he's missed a lot of games. During 05-06 he played in 72 games and during 06-07 he played 75. He had the one bad season because of the Horford hit and I forget what happened his rookie season.

His rookie year, he was fouled by Mark Madsen of Minny, landed on his tailbone and suffered a spinal cord contusion. He missed the balance of the 2004 season and all of the 2005 season.

I am with Hicks. I knew there was a possibility of a catastrophic injury, but I did not see a history of these nagging types of injuries.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2009, 12:12 PM
Well this debate is over. Last night my wife said, uncoached, "that number 5 is messing up everything, he should only shoot FTs in the last 5 minutes and do nothing else".

:D

ie, dude isn't playing well. Last night was so freaking typical lately, I just don't get it. Worst of all is seeing both he and Jack just destroyed, I mean destroyed, by Wafer, Rafer and Brooks. All 3 of them could blow past them at will. It was Damon Stoudamire vs Mark Jackson/Best all over again circa his rookie year.


It's so weird because he makes this steps into layups bordering on travels that get gasps from the crowd for a big layup, but 2 seconds later he's fumbling his dribble, missing point blank shots or missing a wide open 3. Jack is only a few steps above him.

Argh. Those 2 could really kick this team to another level if they could get it together. Oh well, it's still a lot more than we were getting from JO alone (meaning Ford, Rasho and Hibbert combo) as well as being broken into smaller deals.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2009, 12:21 PM
This is very true. I like that he's willing to take the shot, but there have been a lot of missed points because he's not making the best decisions. This seems coachable.
Maybe that's the problem. The paradox this year is that half the time we see these really brilliant slip screens, PnR moves, weak side cuts, and so on. Troy and Jeff have been especially strong with this style of play. You expet it from Rasho and Dun but it's been more than them.

And then the other half you get the exact opposite, a badly forced shot or if it's an open look its extremely early in the possession and with no hope of an offensive rebound. The guys come down and aren't even able to settle in and you get a jumper, or you get a one on one forced drive to shot. That's where the fastbreak always goes it seems, to the ball handler for the missed but often fouled layup.

I understand forcing the action and it has its place, but you can really punish teams and draw even more fouls with all that smart movement and a little patience.

So is JOB coaching the first thing, the second thing, or both? Neither of these things is a hold over from Rick's style, not to mention that most of the players aren't either. I can't tell if JOB is fighting against Ford playing that way or encouraging it (and its not just Ford).


A non-Ford example - I like that Rasho has that mid-jumper, but in the Bird/Rick days you'd see them pull that out AFTER teams cheated off some other play. You'd counter them with it, force them to deal with it. The Pacers don't get stopped on their good offense in the first place, they just instantly bail into this stuff and give the defense a break.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2009, 12:30 PM
He looked healthy so he played well. He's never been a pure point guard, he is a scorer, always have been always will be - why are so many of you just discovering this
Scorers don't make a habit of going 4-12 from layups and open jumpers. So the problem is that not only is he not playing like a PG, he's not playing like a GOOD scoring guard but shooting at a rate that suggests he thinks he is.

He picked up 7 junk points in the final minute or so on 1 real foul and seveal intentional ones (including one stupid dead ball foul even). In real plays he was 1 for 4 in the 4th and getting blasted by Aaron Brooks. He had a dreadful night matched only by the shooting of Dun and Jack.

Danny had a rough shooting night too, but unlike TJ he drew 11 legit FTAs (1 was a tech) and didn't benefit from any of the garbage fouls late. He is a scorer so I can take his misses. He's the guy getting TJ, Dun and Jack those open looks.

imawhat
01-24-2009, 01:43 PM
He looked healthy so he played well. He's never been a pure point guard, he is a scorer, always have been always will be - why are so many of you just discovering this

I think it's hard to argue that a guy once averaging 12 shots/8 assists a game has always been a scorer. He's been a lot closer to Chris Paul than Flip Murray, though not this year.

3 years ago, TJ was averaging 3 more assists per game in less minutes than he's averaging now. He's 1.1 assists below his career low.


ie, dude isn't playing well. Last night was so freaking typical lately, I just don't get it. Worst of all is seeing both he and Jack just destroyed, I mean destroyed, by Wafer, Rafer and Brooks. All 3 of them could blow past them at will. It was Damon Stoudamire vs Mark Jackson/Best all over again circa his rookie year.

Well, I thought we saw moments of very good defense by Ford. He was picking up Rafer (occasionally) around half court. I thought there were moments where he shaded Brooks and crowded Alston very well (in fact, I think he flustered Alston several times with his pressure), but there were also moments where he was getting destroyed, as you mentioned.

It's so frustrating.