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idioteque
01-17-2009, 10:17 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsnXvh_Mu2sMC41.9azDwSzTjdIF?slug=aw-onealheat011709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Adrian Wojnarowski (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/expertsarchive;_ylt=ApikfHN8PANriNeuZSTh01vTjdIF?a uthor=Adrian+Wojnarowski)
Yahoo! Sports

So we could have gotten a Marion-quality player for JO? Let the teeth gnashing begin.






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http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/cn/headshots/adrian_wojnarowski.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/expertsarchive;_ylt=AndGllCEef_rpgeltwvFo.XTjdIF?a uthor=Adrian+Wojnarowski)
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As Jermaine O’Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120;_ylt=AsQY8GkdUo5CzcLGi9ocrWrTjdIF) and his troublesome right knee returned to the Toronto lineup on Friday night, perhaps no one studied the Toronto Raptors (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/tor/;_ylt=Aqwq8mnUKtpU3kI9bv113JDTjdIF) center more closely than Pat Riley.
The Miami Heat (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/mia/;_ylt=Ap9hVb4SZZHHwTw1P20m6DzTjdIF) president has been seriously considering a trade package for O’Neal that would send Shawn Marion (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3332/;_ylt=Apo_dM6WD.0n3pOq354vsM3TjdIF) to Toronto, multiple league sources said. Yet Riley first needs to see O’Neal’s progress before he’ll make the leap of faith on a trade.
Nevertheless, O’Neal, 30, was telling league associates as recently as Friday that he believes there’s a good chance he’ll end up in Miami.

“If he’s healthy,” one source close to O’Neal said Friday, “it could very well happen.”
League executives say that Riley has been determined to make a deal for a center, and has had substantive talks with Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo.
No GM has seemed more determined to overhaul his team than Colangelo, and several league executives say he won’t hesitate to take Marion – whom he drafted in Phoenix – and his expiring $17.1 million contract for O’Neal.
Miami would need to include another player, or two, to make the salaries match. O’Neal makes $21.3 million this season, and has a player’s option for $23 million for the next season.
Colangelo has been willing to move everyone on his roster but Chris Bosh (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3707/;_ylt=AnDZrN1nJjb6ht16nCL7iMPTjdIF), Jose Calderon (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3989/;_ylt=AkuWnr2i_ssRzJK_34kZm3_TjdIF) and Andrea Bargnani (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4129/;_ylt=ApZ0iPxOAukmiO_JCsfFbvfTjdIF). In fact, the emergence of Bargnani, the 2006 No. 1 overall pick, has made an even stronger case for moving O’Neal. Before returning to the struggling Raptors on Friday, O’Neal had missed nine straight games with a sore right knee. He’s averaging 14 points and 7.2 rebounds a game.
For Miami, the core choice is difficult: How much does the 7-footer have left in that battered body? The Heat had been believed to be a favored destination for Utah’s Carlos Boozer (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3632/;_ylt=Ala9W_PLfFb.xW4F5G9BCoHTjdIF), but there are increasing questions about Boozer’s appeal because he has knee problems of his own.
Riley “doesn’t seem as interested in cap space this summer,” said a rival executive who exchanged trade proposals with him recently. “He just seems concerned with having space in 2010.”
The Feb. 19 trade deadline is looming.

Bball
01-17-2009, 11:03 PM
League executives say that Riley has been determined to make a deal for a center

Hmmmm

cinotimz
01-17-2009, 11:06 PM
Why do I get the feeling we wont see JO playing over 15-20 minutes a game until the trade deadline comes and goes.

Toronto going to be handling him with kid gloves in the hopes Miami bites.

Quis
01-17-2009, 11:35 PM
Shawn Marion looks just as washed up as J.O. does.

Spirit
01-17-2009, 11:57 PM
I'd much prefer Ford over Marion. Marion isn't as good as he was with Phoenix. I think D'Antoni's offense made him look better than he really was, and now that he isn't spoon fed he isn't playing as well.

Los Angeles
01-18-2009, 12:06 AM
Shawn Marion looks just as washed up as J.O. does.

:ding:

CableKC
01-18-2009, 02:01 AM
I'd be amazed if Toronto can pull off a straight up JONeal for Marion deal ( and nothing else ).....BC would have fleeced Riley to the tune of $20+ mil.

If I were Riley, I would want something more....JONeal just isn't the player that he was.

Peter_sixtyftsixin
01-18-2009, 02:11 AM
I think this is a horrible trade for the Heat

jeffg-body
01-18-2009, 02:14 AM
I truly liked Marion in his younger years, but now I am starting to fade on whether he'd be more of a set-back for this Pacers team. I'd much rather get a younger player such as Haslam out of any deal with Miami.

Now on with the JO/Marion swap rumor. I doubt Miami has any interest in this with JO being paid in the 20's. They need to keep all of the cap space they can to try to get one of the top tier guys, and JO is no longer a top tier guy. Yes, he's a top notch professional who plays his butt off whenever he can, but the wheels are getting flatter and flatter. Marion is also in the beginnings of the twilight of his career and injuries that he would normally shrug off will start to show more and more. He'd be a good pick-up if you were close to championship level and just needed him off of the bench for 15-20 min a game.

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2009, 04:00 AM
I was always a Marion fan, but he now seems to be bringing questions to the team, he really is more SF than PF and we have a better prospect at that spot now, and most importantly JO's contract was split in half thanks to the Rasho/Ford combo. You can walk away from half the financial obligation at the end of the year.

Oh, and on top of all this you got Hibbert who is showing real promise of being a slow developing reliable post scorer who can at least hold his own on defense if not more. He looks to be a better all-around prospect than Rik was back in the day. I certainly didn't see that coming, but his on-court play put it in my face.

Skaut_Ech
01-18-2009, 10:10 AM
I'd much prefer Ford over Marion. Marion isn't as good as he was with Phoenix. I think D'Antoni's offense made him look better than he really was, and now that he isn't spoon fed he isn't playing as well.

Actually, he wasn't spoon fed at all and that's why he wanted out of Phoenix. They didn't run any plays for him. At all. His job was to roam and do whatever he could on the floor, hence the matrix stats.

Seth, I've been thinking about Marion quite a bit over the past few weeks, playing "what if" in my head. I'm with you, I don't know where we would play him, although an arguement could be made for him playing PF and moving Troy to C. With Marion's passing skills, three point skills and ability to drive, I think he actually could be a prefect fit for this style offense.

My biggest reservation is that I've been gradually starting to suspect that Marion is a closet egomanaic. Have you guys noticed the little gripes he's made to the media over the years. Talent-wise, I think he'd be a GREAT fit for this team, but I suspect we'd be shipping in a new malcontent after we've alread cleaned house.

And for you people saying Marion looks washed up....:rolleyes:

The guy's had ONE bad season. This one. On an incredibly unstable team. If the guy had been showing years worth of steady decline, I might agree with you. I think you put Shawn in a better structured system, that take advantage of all of his skills, I se him bumping right back up to being a top guy in the league.

pacergod2
01-18-2009, 10:18 AM
I really like this deal for both sides. The heat will have a much bigger lineup and Marion absolutely must get moved. I am sure Marion will be packaged with either Blount or Banks and Toronto will add like Joey Graham, Will Soloman, or Jamario Moon to the deal. The Heat have a logjam at PF and this would allow O'Neal to play next to Haslem. Chalmers, Wade, Beasley, Haslem and O'Neal. Toronto would be looking at Calderon, Kapono, Marion, Bargnani, Bosh. Not a bad lineup. I think it makes both lineups a lot more even. They both kind of have uneven lineups right now and this would even their talent across the starting lineup.

YoSoyIndy
01-18-2009, 11:41 AM
My biggest reservation is that I've been gradually starting to suspect that Marion is a closet egomanaic. Have you guys noticed the little gripes he's made to the media over the years.

Closet egomaniac? The dude would prefer being the best player on a bad team than the 2nd to 4th option on a winning one.

Phoenix ran plays for him. They just didn't run plays for him more than Amare. Check the cover story from ESPN the Mag from last year. It's gross.

I would never want Marion on our team regardless of his ability to spread the floor and cause match-up problems. If he wasn't happy w/ his role in Phoenix, then he would never be happy here.

danman
01-18-2009, 12:14 PM
"If he's healthy."

"If."

"If."

Marion's clearly in decline, but he's got a lot more in the tank than Right Knee O'Neal.

I buy the rumor because JO is a defensive beast in the post when healthy. Pat loves that stuff 'cause it's so rare.

The Matrix is certainly not a building block player any more. He's a nice third option who can rebound and do a good job defending wingmen. But's he's a head case in the locker room. He's also a guy who relies on athleticism reaching 30 years of age, showing a noticeable decline. The Matrix is a good rental, but I don't want to be the GM signing his new contract.

Skaut_Ech
01-18-2009, 12:14 PM
Guess he's not so closet, huh? Didn't realoize that. I know years ago, D'Antoni talked about how he didn't run any plays for Shawn because he didn't need any. He considered him the glue guy to do whatever need to be done by using his smarts to adapt to the situation. I thought that was the ultimate compliment.

BTW, I think this is your article;

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=espnmag/marion

ESPN The Magazine: The Invisible Man
<hr size="1" width="100%" noshade="noshade"> By Chris Palmer
ESPN The Magazine

Editor's note: This article appeared in the April 23 issue of ESPN The Magazine. Shawn Marion (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3332) adjusts his Yankees cap and slips on a pair of white Gucci shades before stepping into the midday Arizona sun. Standing in front of a Tempe auto-body shop, he beams like a proud papa as he shows off the latest addition to his brood: a fully restored 1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible. He found the black classic with its 66,000 miles on the Internet and landed it after haggling some guy in Illinois down to $2,100. Now that he's put another $15,000 into it -- including matching black 22-inch deep-dish rims -- it's ready for the street. <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="2" width="5"><spacer type="block" width="5" height="1"></td><td width="195">http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0411/nba_marion_195.jpg</td></tr><tr><td width="195">Why's he called Matrix? 'Cause his game has special effects.</td></tr></tbody></table>
Today's cars are pieces of junk compared with this retro Dee-troit muscle, he thinks. Steve McQueen would be happy to drive this baby. Marion loves everything about it: the horizontal speedometer, the square headlights, the steel bumpers. But mostly he loves the 15-inch subwoofers that can rattle screen doors up at UNLV, his alma mater. At the moment, Jim Jones' "We Fly High" booms. Marion turns the volume to 23, igniting a car alarm symphony, before heading out for a spin. As he rolls through the Arizona State campus, Marion hears a large man in a suffocating blue polo call out. It's Michael Clarke Duncan of "The Green Mile" fame, one arm around his LA Clippers cheerleader girlfriend. "What up, Trix?" the actor says through a huge smile in that familiar grumble. "I see you, boy."
At least someone does.
<center>* * * * * </center>Marion just wants to be noticed. His invisibility is never more evident than in the Suns' 129-127 double-OT epic with the Mavericks on March 14. With eight ticks in regulation, Steve Nash (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3103) launches a potential game-tying three from the top of the key that caroms long and appears headed into the hands of Dallas' Greg Buckner (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3296). In an instant, the man they call The Matrix materializes to snag the ball and kick it back to the two-time MVP, who promptly drills a three from the elbow. The announcers roar that Nash has just gotten a leg up on Dirk Nowitzki (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3252) in this season's MVP race. Not a mention is made of Marion's game-saving work. Moments like that have Marion wondering, Where is the love? The résumé certainly demands it: 18.6 ppg and four All-Star Games in eight seasons. And this season, Marion is the only guy in the top 20 in rebounds (10.0), field goal percentage (52.5), steals (2.0), blocks (1.6), double-doubles (35) and minutes (37.9). "Steve is the MVP of the league," says Marion, "but I've had people tell me I am the MVP of the team." Warriors coach Don Nelson might be one of them. Nellie says Marion is "as important as anyone they've got."
<!-- PULL-QUOTE (BEGIN) --> "I want the recognition. I feel I've done what it takes to get it, but for some reason it hasn't happened. " -- Shawn Marion

<!-- PULL-QUOTE (END) -->Don't misunderstand. Marion is not trying to steal Nash's thunder or pick a fight. There is plenty of respect and a healthy appreciation for their symbiotic relationship. But he'd still like you to pass the sugar, please. "I want the recognition," says Marion, who got fewer votes for February's All-Star Game than Shane Battier (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3516). "I feel I've done what it takes to get it, but for some reason it hasn't happened." Respect is the final piece of the puzzle. A career of being overshadowed by higher-profile teammates despite his box score stuffing has left him thirsting for attention. But it's hard for Marion to get anyone to feel sorry for him.
He is, after all, a single, 28-year-old star for a team on the short list to win the title. And let's not forget he's the highest-paid Sun of all, sitting on a max deal that's paying him $49.3 million over three years. Those who don't know him -- and even those who do -- have to wonder what the problem is.
Back in Tempe, Marion and his Cutlass reach their destination: Hooters, and its half-price, happy-hour Buffalo wings special. The waitresses, in shiny orange short shorts, who have been milling around the bar, snap to attention, giggling as he walks by. Marion takes a table in the middle of the restaurant, near a wall-mounted TV that is tuned to an ESPNEWS feature on Kobe's recent scoring tear. Marion would pay to see Kobe, but not many others. "I don't watch a lot of basketball," he says. "I find it boring. You gotta understand, I play for the Suns. Everything else doesn't match up."
After a brief chat with his mom, Elaine, Marion cracks a menu but is quickly distracted by a perky waitress who suggests the ribs. "Did y'all win last night?" she asks.
"Yeah," says Marion, slightly disinterested.
<table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="2" width="5"><spacer type="block" width="5" height="1"></td><td width="200">http://sports.espn.go.com/i/insider/insiderMagIndex/mag_04232007_200x200.jpg</td></tr><tr><td width="200">This article appears in the latest edition of ESPN The Magazine. Subscribe (https://r.espn.go.com/espn/magazine/purchase?productOfferId=MagFleece&offerOptionId=espnmag_fleece&campaign=INConversion&source=instorymagsub).</td></tr></tbody></table>
"Woo! You go, boy! We love you!" It's a scene that plays out over and over in his world -- getting recognized just for being Shawn Marion -- but it's not the support he's looking for. If gushing girls in tight T-shirts gave out postseason awards, then he'd have it made. Alas, the props he covets are those doled out by basketball people who matter, in the form of bronze statues. They aren't served up at the Hooters on South Mill Avenue with a side of crinkly fries. So no offense, miss, but Harry Potter's invisibility cloak would really come in handy right about now.
Two dozen wings and a tumbler of lemonade later, Marion is back at his three-bedroom town house in a gated complex in northern Phoenix. Kicking off his untied white Air Force 1's, he flops on an oversize brown leather couch. He slides off his cap, rubs his head and lets out a sigh, like something is on his mind. And these days, something is always on his mind. A sense of incompleteness preoccupies him. His subordinate role in the offense, on the team, is never far from his thoughts.
Marion clicks on the 39-inch flat screen, and there's Stallone racing away from the psychos in "Cobra." Sly, in a modified 1950 Mercury, hits the nitro and disappears over the horizon. Invisible.
And that could be Marion. He has the juice to force the issue and demand a trade to another NBA town, one in which he'd be the center of attention. So what about it, Shawn? Would you rather be a 30-point scorer and an MVP candidate on a lesser team, say, one only flirting with the postseason, than the sidekick to the sidekick in Phoenix? "Wow, that's interesting," he says thoughtfully, as if he's never entertained the prospect before.
Marion pauses nearly 10 seconds to concentrate on the question. Only the muted sound of late-afternoon traffic outside the two-story living room breaks the silence. He fiddles with the remote as if it holds the answer. "I've never been asked that," he continues. "That would be an interesting situation to be in, to really show people what I can do.
"But we'd be in the playoffs, right?"
<center>* * * * * </center> Like the fuel that breathes life into one of Marion's cars, the Suns offense is famously high-octane. But unlike in his metal-and-rubber rides, Marion sees himself as but a passenger in that other, blood-and-guts machine. He'll say he is a victim of his own unique style of play, because it allows coaches and teammates to figure he'll fend for himself, to fit in wherever. The upshot is, Marion is a freelancer in his own shop. If he doesn't feed himself, he starves.
<!-- PULL-QUOTE (BEGIN) -->
"He may feel unappreciated, but everyone here appreciates what he does. We know that without him there is no championship How can he be considered underrated with that résumé? " -- Jalen Rose, on Suns teammate Shawn Marion

<!-- PULL-QUOTE (END) -->"A lot of people don't understand how the NBA works," he says. "They look at the Suns as a running team but don't realize that many nights, we play a two-man game. Everything we do starts with Steve and Amaré's pick-and-roll. I have no plays called for me. I have to go get everything." Which he does -- better than anyone. He leaps quicker than just about any other player in the league, because he pogos while the rest of the humans take time to gather. He launches his unorthodox eye-level shots with an unblockable Dan Marino-like flick of the wrist, but in fact, he is the rare player who doesn't need the ball to put up 17 a game. Most of his opportunities come on backdoor cuts, offensive putbacks and quick strikes on the break. In a March 25 game against the Kings, he got his usual 17 while possessing the ball for less than 60 seconds of real time. "The beauty of Shawn's game is he thrives in whatever style we play," Nash says. It's a blessing and a curse. Marion knows all anyone has to do to neutralize a player who doesn't get plays called or picks set for him is box out. "You see me averaging 18, but some nights I struggle to get a bucket," he says. "People don't realize how hard the NBA is. I have to move constantly if I want to survive."
The star's hand-wringing amuses the most recent addition to the team, Jalen Rose (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=2636). "He may feel unappreciated, but everyone here appreciates what he does," Rose says. "We know that without him there is no championship." Rose, who speaks with the confidence and insight of an elder statesman, continues. "How can he be considered underrated with that résumé? Of course, the reason he's as good as he is is because of that chip on his shoulder." But if a lack of credit for the Suns' success bothers Marion, you wouldn't know it by watching him interact with his teammates. He organizes poker tournaments on team flights. When he's on the bench, he is often the first one dapping the players coming off the court when a timeout is called. Before every opening tip-off, he hugs head coach Mike D'Antoni, a ritual he started four seasons ago to show support for the rookie coach. "Shawn is a smart guy, and he knows how good he's got it," says D'Antoni, who's been one of Marion's biggest fans. <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="2" width="5"><spacer type="block" width="5" height="1"></td><td width="275">http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0411/nba_marion_275.jpg</td></tr><tr><td width="275">Shawn Marion's left to wonder when all of the accolades will start coming his way.</td></tr></tbody></table>
If there's one thing that sticks in Marion's craw more than anything else, it's the lack of recognition for his work at the defensive end. Regarded by coaches and players as one of the league's preeminent stoppers, Marion can keep a point guard from getting into the lane on one possession and force a power forward into a bad shot the next. "When he's out, it's like we're missing four players," says D'Antoni. "There's no way to replace him. We just try to cover as many holes as we can." What is most striking is that because of the Suns' small-ball system, Marion has played out of position at power forward for much of the past three seasons. At 6-7, 228, he can't dominate the paint with brute force. Instead, he uses cunning and hustle, deftly anticipating the bounce of a rebound or blocking a shot of a taller player from behind. "Boxing him out is impossible," says Amaré Stoudemire. "You have to face-guard him the whole time." That's not going to happen either. "Players are trained to follow the shot," says Celtics coach Doc Rivers. "And when you turn your head, he's gone."
Even at his size, Marion snags more defensive rebounds per game (7.8) than 54 of the 59 other starting power forwards and centers. And his 1.6 bpg is nearly double that of the next best shotblocker of equivalent height, Charlotte's Gerald Wallace (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3533) (0.97). He also leads the Suns in deflections.
Despite all that, guess who has never made an All-Defensive team? "I just don't understand how something like that can happen," Marion says. "It's one thing to ask a guy to guard another position every now and then, but for a whole season? That is rough. Are they watching the same league?"
Two diehard Suns fans in particular have seen all they need to. Acting on their own, David Nelson, a UC-Irvine grad student, and Damien Walker, a season ticket-holder and professional online poker player, recently compiled a 12-page report titled "Surprise! An Objective Analysis of the Defensive Player of the Year Award." After crunching numbers from a variety of categories, the study concludes that Marion is their guy. "That's not us saying he should win it," says Walker. "That's the data."
<center>* * * * * </center> Marion spends much of his time away from the court alone, but not in a self-imposed Kobe sort of way. A month from turning 29, he's too old for the club-hopping of younger teammates. And the older ones have responsibilities. "You can't just pick up the phone and call one of your teammates in the afternoon and say, 'Let's hang out tonight,'" he explains. "They've got kids and they gotta eat dinner and check with their wives. You've got to plan." <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="2" width="5"><spacer type="block" width="5" height="1"></td><td width="275">http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0410/nba_marion_275.jpg</td></tr><tr><td width="275">At the end of the day, it's safe to say no one can question Marion's drive.</td></tr></tbody></table>
His hobby of restoring classic cars gives him a creative outlet. A 1970 Chevelle and a 1966 Lincoln, "like the one from the opening credits of 'Entourage'," round out his collection of older models. His late-model stable includes a BMW 760, Mustang GT, Hummer H2 and Porsche Cayenne. All white. "It's just my thing," he says. One car you won't find in his garage is a Maybach. Waste of cash, he says. "People may find it strange, but I'm just really smart with my money," says Marion, who opts to fly commercial rather than go by private jet. And you're more likely to find him staying at a Holiday Inn than a five-star hotel when he travels. But to everyone around him, he is first-class goods. On a crowded thoroughfare near Marion's house, a black Lexus pulls up beside the Cutlass. The passenger-side window sinks to reveal an attractive woman in her mid-20s. "Excuse me," she says, "I just want to say you have a beautiful car."
"You want to wash it for me?" Marion replies.
"Sure."
The moment hangs for a beat like an offensive rebound waiting to be dunked home. But Marion just smiles politely. Just another instance of his getting attention everywhere but where he wants it most. The light turns green and he makes a right turn for home, vanishing once again.
Chris Palmer is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.

YoSoyIndy
01-18-2009, 01:54 PM
Yeah, that's it. Just like "real life", a guy's personality can change over time. I'm guessing it's similar to JO in that someone (or several people) got in Marion's ear telling him he needs to be "the guy" and that he's the best on the Suns. It set in and he started mouthing off.

That's why strong veteran leadership is important. A peer needs to see that happening and fix it before it is an issue.

CableKC
01-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Well, it looks like things are heating up:

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/573052
By Doug Smith
Toronto Star - TheStar


The Raptors are moving toward a significant mid-season trade that would ship Jermaine O'Neal to the Miami Heat for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks in a deal involving highly paid veterans unable to fit seamlessly into new situations.

Multiple league sources confirmed yesterday that talks have progressed to the point where the trade, although not imminent, could be finalized when the Heat are satisfied O'Neal is healthy enough to help them in their drive for the Eastern Conference playoffs.

How many more games it will take to convince the Heat is unclear, but the sources confirmed talks are nearly completed at the highest levels of each organization.

Raptor officials, citing long-held team rules, would not comment on trade speculation.

O'Neal, according to sources and various Internet reports, has told friends and acquaintances that he expects to be dealt to Miami. League sources tell the Star that nothing is expected to happen in the next 24 or 48 hours and it could be more than a week before any deal is finalized.
A straight up JONeal for Marion doesn't make sense....but involving Marcus Banks ( to clear space ) would make more sense and balence out the trade.

A Frontcourt rotation of JONeal/Beasley/Haslem/Blount is decent enough to keep them competitive for the next 2 season before the 2010 FA Sweepstakes.

AesopRockOn
01-18-2009, 02:50 PM
So Miami isn't going to try for Boozer?

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-18-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm watching the Raps game right now, they showed BC for a moment and he was rapidly typing away on his blackberry. :stirthepo

xtacy
01-18-2009, 03:23 PM
I'd much prefer Ford over Marion. Marion isn't as good as he was with Phoenix. I think D'Antoni's offense made him look better than he really was, and now that he isn't spoon fed he isn't playing as well.

agreed. it was nash that made marion look beter i mean way better than he is. he should be thankful to him about that ridiculous contract he got.

Doddage
01-18-2009, 03:37 PM
This seems like Miami's just undoing the Marion deal, and ironically, getting an O'Neal back.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2009, 03:46 PM
As far as I'm concerned BC made a terrible mistake in trading for JO, but thanks for helping the Pacers unload him and his contract. BC will have a difficult time unloading a often injured JO, so my opinion is he's going to have a ruff time doing it and unless the sun, the moon, and the stars are all alaigned properly it's not going to happen. Surely, Riley is smarter than to trade for JO!

Slick Pinkham
01-18-2009, 06:03 PM
JO expects JO to dominate in Miami, and thinks that Wade could nicely complement the offense as it runs through JO.

Peck
01-18-2009, 06:16 PM
So Toronto really thought J.O. was going to help and was not just looking to clear the salary? Odd.

I really thought they were just rolling the dice with this. In other words if J.O. and Bosh worked out then it would be great but if he didn't then his salary would come off the books and allow them a great deal of flexibility.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Not that I am saying anything but you have to wonder if maybe J.O.'s injury and underproduction are not the issue. I wonder if J.O. is unhappy with his situation and is causing trouble?

Rumor has it he and Mitchell did not get along, I have no idea if that is true or not. Also J.O. has always been very very adept at putting on a good public face and saying the right thing to the press and the camera's however once they are all gone it has been said that he is quite the prima dona.

Or maybe Toronto just see's an opprotunity to improve?

Who knows?

Bball
01-18-2009, 06:36 PM
So Toronto really thought J.O. was going to help and was not just looking to clear the salary? Odd.

I really thought they were just rolling the dice with this. In other words if J.O. and Bosh worked out then it would be great but if he didn't then his salary would come off the books and allow them a great deal of flexibility.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Not that I am saying anything but you have to wonder if maybe J.O.'s injury and underproduction are not the issue. I wonder if J.O. is unhappy with his situation and is causing trouble?

Rumor has it he and Mitchell did not get along, I have no idea if that is true or not. Also J.O. has always been very very adept at putting on a good public face and saying the right thing to the press and the camera's however once they are all gone it has been said that he is quite the prima dona.

Or maybe Toronto just see's an opprotunity to improve?

Who knows?

You know where I'd put my money.

I'm so glad he's gone.

-Bball

danman
01-18-2009, 06:49 PM
It's easy to see Toronto's side. The Matrix slots in as a good starter at SF, whereas O'Neal was an oft-injured bench player with the emergence of Bargnani. Better yet, Marion is an ending contract, so they can sign him if it works, let him go if it doesn't. This may look like genius if the Raptors suddenly improve, and there's a legit chance of it.

From Miami's side, I'm baffled. It makes sense if O'Neal is healthy, but look at the past 4 seasons. His knee seems to be chronic. The over/under for JO is 60 games.

I've got to believe that Marion is creating a stink off the court. Riley has always has a big man stopper and he's decided to get one before Marion walks away.

BlueNGold
01-18-2009, 07:20 PM
Bargnani is much better than JO right now. Marion is much better than JO right now.

This trade will not happen.

CableKC
01-18-2009, 07:36 PM
If Riley is truly interested in taking on JONeal and is willing to give up Marion for him so that BC can go with a Marion/Bosh/Bargani frontcourt....then that's fine. But you would have to wonder if there is "buyers remorse" on the part on the part of Toronto. After 3-4 months into the season, the Raptors are already considering moving JONeal?

BTW....moving JONeal to his 3rd team in half a year doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't capable of being a good player nor that he still isn't one....but maybe a bad fit for BCs system?

But to be fair to JONeal, I could hope that it's the latter ( bad fit ) but honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was the former and that the Bosh/JONeal experiment simply didn't work out as BC hoped.

For Riley, I'm wondering if he gets the sense that getting Boozer maybe too expensive and may effect his 2010 FA Plans to resign Wade and another player.

RaptorsFan
01-18-2009, 08:42 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Also, i dont wanna make enemies, but if anybody is really insinuating that getting Marion for JO isnt > Ford/Rasho, thats crazy!!! Marion has alot left in the tank, he just needs a better situation.

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

Merz
01-18-2009, 08:50 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Also, i dont wanna make enemies, but if anybody is really insinuating that getting Marion for JO isnt > Ford/Rasho, thats crazy!!! Marion has alot left in the tank, he just needs a better situation.

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

I wouldn't trade Ford/Rasho/Hibbert for Marion.

It's not like I haven't been called crazy before.

MrSparko
01-18-2009, 08:52 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Also, i dont wanna make enemies, but if anybody is really insinuating that getting Marion for JO isnt > Ford/Rasho, thats crazy!!! Marion has alot left in the tank, he just needs a better situation.

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

Yea you're right. Pacers should have gotten a 1 year rental malcontent small forward (Danny Granger plays what). Instead we got a starting point guard, back-up center, future center, and bench filler.

I agree that Toronto wins this trade though, but to say that it blows what the Pacers got completely out of the water seems silly.

RaptorsFan
01-18-2009, 09:00 PM
I really like both Ford and Rasho, but lets be realistic, Rasho is a good bench player and TJ has some kind of mental dysfunction that wont allow him to stop jacking up shots at crucial times. Marion thrived in a system where he had no plays ran for him, he will get our 2nd option here, he is infinitely more proven then anybody in any JO trade to date and we desperately need a starting guard who can score and rebound.

Unless TJ becomes what i always wished he would (and i start to doubt it more and more unfortunately), all you will get out of JO is a few bench players. His expiring becomes increasely valuble as time goes by and perhaps Riley has plans next year or maybe just use the $ in 2010. This trade also gives Toronto (not exactly a major market in terms of attracting talent) a huge expiring next year in Marion, who if it works out we can resign for a discount perhaps, or more likely be a player a year before everybody else is.

Anyways, im just happy that it looks like the "JO Experiment" is over, i wish him all the best in South Beach, he just isnt the right fit for our team, we have no legit guards.

BTW, im not saying Indy had to do the exact JO for Marion trade, im just saying in time if you proved he was somewhat healthy for a bit of a year, his expiring just keeps looking more valuble to other teams, you could have gotten much more imo.

MrSparko
01-18-2009, 09:03 PM
Same could be said of the Raptors. Hold on to him another year, and there could have been even more people wanting it.

I personally have a hard time seeing Marion being happier with Calderon and Bosh than he was with Nash and Amare, but I don't have anything against the Raptors so good luck.

BlueNGold
01-18-2009, 09:11 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Also, i dont wanna make enemies, but if anybody is really insinuating that getting Marion for JO isnt > Ford/Rasho, thats crazy!!! Marion has alot left in the tank, he just needs a better situation.

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

This trade would be good for Toronto. Marion is not only better than JO, he is a more valuable trading piece if Toronto wants to spin off Marion later. But for the Pacers, Marion is duplicative. We already spend 20M or so on SF's. He's simply a much better fit for Toronto. I would not prefer Marion over Rasho/Ford and Hibbert if I could make that trade today.

As it stands, a Rasho/Ford for Marion trade is a coup for Toronto. As for whether Toronto ultimately gets more value out of Rasho/Ford and Hibbert, however, I don't think anyone can say at this point. It all depends on how Hibbert develops.

danman
01-18-2009, 09:24 PM
Marion thrived in a system where he had no plays ran for him, he will get our 2nd option here, he is infinitely more proven then anybody in any JO trade to date and we desperately need a starting guard who can score and rebound.

This trade also gives Toronto (not exactly a major market in terms of attracting talent) a huge expiring next year in Marion, who if it works out we can resign for a discount perhaps, or more likely be a player a year before everybody else is.

BTW, im not saying Indy had to do the exact JO for Marion trade, im just saying in time if you proved he was somewhat healthy for a bit of a year, his expiring just keeps looking more valuble to other teams, you could have gotten much more imo.
.

Marion plays PF and SF. Though he can defend some guards with his quickness, you aren't getting a real guard.

And I believe Marion's contract expires this year. Given the rules around trades, Marion is either a rental for Toronto or he's going to be resigned... he's not trade bait.

I'm sure JO's expiring contract could be attractive, but that's not why Miami is trading (if this all turns out to be true). In fact, Miami gave up an expiring contract for one that will run yet another year -- JO has a player option for another 20+ million year after this.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2009, 09:42 PM
Rasho is a good bench player

His expiring becomes increasely valuble as time goes by and perhaps Riley has plans next year or maybe just use the $ in 2010. This trade also gives Toronto (not exactly a major market in terms of attracting talent) a huge expiring next year in Marion, who if it works out we can resign for a discount perhaps, or more likely be a player a year before everybody else is.

Anyways, im just happy that it looks like the "JO Experiment" is over,

his expiring just keeps looking more valuble to other teams, you could have gotten much more imo.


But Rash has a nice 8 mil expiring.:)

If this trade goes thru, Marion and his expiring is nothing more than a half season rental for Toronto. Good luck attracting an allstar FA to Toronto.

Not as much as a "good many" Pacer fans.

If JO's contract is so valuable as an expiring after this season, why don't you keep him? What 20 mil expiring has ever been traded? Knicks still have Marbury with a half season to go!

Again, thanx BC for allowing the Pacers to dump JO off on a 2x exec of the year!

Bball
01-18-2009, 09:49 PM
I'm happy as can be we traded JO for warm bodies, let alone 3 players that have started for us at various times this season.

I would've traded him for about anything as long as the contracts were shorter/broken up and it wasn't chemistry killer.

That said, if Miami is interested in JO now, I wonder how far off a Tinsley/JO package would've been this summer?

Even so, we did fine. JO is Toronto's problem now. Unfortunately, Tinsley is still our problem, even if it is a wallet and roster spot issue more than anything else now.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2009, 10:03 PM
Even so, we did fine. JO is Toronto's problem now. Unfortunately, Tinsley is still our problem, even if it is a wallet and roster spot issue more than anything else now.


It's the not the lack of the roster spot, it's being handcuffed with Tinsley's salary that's the problem.

Bball
01-18-2009, 10:19 PM
It's the not the lack of the roster spot, it's being handcuffed with Tinsley's salary that's the problem.

That's what I meant by the 'wallet' comment...

cinotimz
01-18-2009, 10:32 PM
If JO goes to Miami for Marion and Banks, I wonder if that makes it any easier to trade Tinsley to Miami for Haslem?

RaptorsFan
01-18-2009, 11:18 PM
But Rash has a nice 8 mil expiring.:)

If this trade goes thru, Marion and his expiring is nothing more than a half season rental for Toronto. Good luck attracting an allstar FA to Toronto.

Not as much as a "good many" Pacer fans.

If JO's contract is so valuable as an expiring after this season, why don't you keep him? What 20 mil expiring has ever been traded? Knicks still have Marbury with a half season to go!

Again, thanx BC for allowing the Pacers to dump JO off on a 2x exec of the year!

Simple, the corporation that owns the Toronto Raptors is half owned by the Ontario teachers union, which is in it for the profits, nothing more, it's a big problem that this corporation owns most of the teams in Toronto, the reason they are willing to trade JO now and not later when it's potentially a more valuble expiring is simple, we arent going to make the playoffs unless we win now, fans are starting the slowly turn on the raptors and a good majority of them are fair weather fans here, making the playoffs, even for 1 round is a huge revenue boost. I said we can attract Odom or Williams or perhaps Ron-Ron himself next year, not a superstar, and we would be better off as most of the 2010 class wont be interested in Toronto at all, except Bosh, who mark my words, will resign this summer.

HC
01-18-2009, 11:30 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Also, i dont wanna make enemies, but if anybody is really insinuating that getting Marion for JO isnt > Ford/Rasho, thats crazy!!! Marion has alot left in the tank, he just needs a better situation.

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

Marion has never won anything in his career. He is a great player, but there are reasons for that, and it isn't the lack of a supporting cast.

Quis
01-18-2009, 11:52 PM
Washed-up, overpaid garbage for washed-up, overpaid garbage. I'd give the advantage to Miami for being able to ditch Banks' lousy contract and freeing up an extra $5M for 2010.

Anthem
01-19-2009, 10:56 AM
Wow, that's some nice work by Toronto.


From Miami's side, I'm baffled. It makes sense if O'Neal is healthy, but look at the past 4 seasons. His knee seems to be chronic. The over/under for JO is 60 games.
Doesn't matter. They're all about clearing space and this lets them move Banks. Like the last JO move, it was partially about on-court production and partly about salary.

Like everyone else, I'd love it if this cleared the way for Tinsley to Miami. Not sure that they'd do it, though.

Justin Tyme
01-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Like everyone else, I'd love it if this cleared the way for Tinsley to Miami. Not sure that they'd do it, though.


I don't see why Riley would take on Tinsley's contract for an extra 3mil a year when he is finally getting someone to take Banks' contract. It would be more costly for the same length of year contract as Banks. Wishful thinking on our part though. Tinsley's salary is a major obstacle in upgrading some talent for this team.

CableKC
01-19-2009, 01:13 PM
If JO goes to Miami for Marion and Banks, I wonder if that makes it any easier to trade Tinsley to Miami for Haslem?
Nope....for 2 reasons:

1 ) There is a reason why Riley would include Banks....cuz they want his Contract off the books by the 2010-2011 Offseason.

2 ) They need as much Frontcourt Depth at the PF position in order to backup JONeal WHEN he goes down with injury over the next 2 seasons.

YoSoyIndy
01-19-2009, 01:22 PM
Wow, that's some nice work by Toronto.


Doesn't matter. They're all about clearing space and this lets them move Banks. Like the last JO move, it was partially about on-court production and partly about salary.

Like everyone else, I'd love it if this cleared the way for Tinsley to Miami. Not sure that they'd do it, though.

If they're all about clearing space, then why would they take on incremental salary past this season? Marion's contract ends this season while JO's continues through next season. If they're all about clearing space, then adding JO makes you pay $23MM more than you would Marion while only cutting $4 going into 2010-11 (Banks trade). Why not just move Banks?

Since the salary cap is going to decrease, obtaining JO's contract also means you may pay $1 for $1 for the luxury tax. All that just to save Bank's last year of contract. Seems a lot of money to pay when you could look to move smaller pieces to get the same cap result w/ far less expenditure.

Shade
01-19-2009, 01:27 PM
Good deal for both teams, IMO.

Toronto gets cap space one year earlier and a player who will fit better in their system in Marion.

Miami still gets cap space for 2010 and gets a more-needed front-court presence, as well as unloading Banks' contract.

My only concern, from a fantasy league perspective, is how JO's offense may bog down Wade and Beasley's productivity. But from a purely basketball perspective, I'd like to see this happen.

Roy Munson
01-19-2009, 02:54 PM
The star describes JO today as a "diva". That's a pretty good description.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/573209

"How did it go so wrong, so quickly? Clearly the summertime trade that brought O'Neal to Toronto for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic and a first-round draft pick, panned in this corner as it happened, is a failure. Colangelo spoke before the season of his belief that O'Neal would fill a hole in the club's defence and rebounding corps – but they're as bad as they've ever been in both categories. Colangelo figured O'Neal would complement Chris Bosh, the resident all-star, but O'Neal, when healthy, has largely been an older, slower duplicate to Bosh. And though O'Neal is a public-relations genius who unfurls a yarn with the skill of 100 spin doctors, you can't help but think that his unwillingness to play through pain and his diva-esque demeanour have been at least partly responsible for the palpable lack of chemistry on this season's squad. So it's agreed: unloading O'Neal before the trade deadline, which comes one month from today at 3 p.m., is a necessity."

Will Galen
01-19-2009, 03:57 PM
Weird that JO and Marion mysteriously had injuries today and didnt play? This baby is done!!! Probably wont be announced until after MLK day but here in Toronto it's being reported that it's basically a done deal!! w000000000t buh bye JO!!

Another reason why BC is 2x exec of the year ;)

Gee, I thought deals had to be actually made before you could proclaim someone GM of the year. The same GM that caused the problem in the first place. ;)

Besides that Miami heat President Pat Riley is saying today, ``Whoever is saying that [a trade is imminent] is putting the cart before the horse.'' http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/# (http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/#)

Riley also said the Heat have had discussions with three teams. Myself I think one of those discussions could be with the Pacers. Why? Well Miami needs a center and reports are they want a vet point because Charmers is having problems.

The Pacers could offer, Rasho and his expiring, Tinsley a vet point guard, and Daniels and his team option, for Marion and Banks. That trade works to within $56,000, so neither teams payroll would be moving much.

The good part is each team would have the rest of the year to look at the players in the trade. Plus Miami would have what they need for a playoff push.

The bad part for the Pacers is we would have Banks, another point guard, on the books for three years. However that would be better than Tinsley.

The bad part for Miami would be having Tinsley on the books for three years but losing Banks three year contract would offset over half of that. However, they would still have enough expiring contracts that they could go after Boozer this summer.

Looks like a win-win to me, especially if the best other trade is for JO.

Anthem
01-19-2009, 04:04 PM
Riley also said the Heat have had discussions with three teams. Myself I think one of those discussions could be with the Pacers. Why? Well Miami needs a center and reports are they want a vet point because Charmers is having problems.

The Pacers could offer, Rasho and his expiring, Tinsley a vet point guard, and Daniels and his team option, for Marion and Banks. That trade works to within $56,000, so neither teams payroll would be moving much.
Oh that is not even fair. I can't allow myself to even consider that being a possibility.

MrSparko
01-19-2009, 04:07 PM
That might be the least crazy of the Tinsley deal ideas.

Justin Tyme
01-19-2009, 05:34 PM
Gee, I thought deals had to be actually made before you could proclaim someone GM of the year. The same GM that caused the problem in the first place. ;)

Besides that Miami heat President Pat Riley is saying today, ``Whoever is saying that [a trade is imminent] is putting the cart before the horse.'' http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/# (http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/#)

Riley also said the Heat have had discussions with three teams. Myself I think one of those discussions could be with the Pacers. Why? Well Miami needs a center and reports are they want a vet point because Charmers is having problems.

The Pacers could offer, Rasho and his expiring, Tinsley a vet point guard, and Daniels and his team option, for Marion and Banks. That trade works to within $56,000, so neither teams payroll would be moving much.

The good part is each team would have the rest of the year to look at the players in the trade. Plus Miami would have what they need for a playoff push.

The bad part for the Pacers is we would have Banks, another point guard, on the books for three years. However that would be better than Tinsley.

The bad part for Miami would be having Tinsley on the books for three years but losing Banks three year contract would offset over half of that. However, they would still have enough expiring contracts that they could go after Boozer this summer.

Looks like a win-win to me, especially if the best other trade is for JO.



Oh please Santa give the Pacers a belated X-mas gift or and early one this year. If Bird pulls that deal off, I will cut him some slack the rest of the season, and personally nominate him for GM of the year!!!

Like Anthem, I can't even think of that as a possibility.

Naptown_Seth
01-19-2009, 05:39 PM
I agree that Will's scenario is in the ballpark of something that accomplishes key goals for both teams. Rasho is running out of gas, that's for sure.

No way Riley dumps Haslem, that guy is critical to what they do.

If you have to bail out of a trade halfway through the season then you F'd the trade up. The Raptors didn't get JO as trade bait, they got him to play. The Pacers were the ones looking to break his contract up and get some expiring that could be used IF NEEDED. Moving Rasho in a deal like this fits that to a T.

So I'd still say the trade buzz for TOR indicates failure much more than Will's potential scenario.