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NashvilleKat
01-14-2009, 09:18 AM
Dick Harter was brought in as a defensive specialist coach. His only job is to teach our players to play defense, develop defensive strategies for each game, and adjust our defense during games to shut down players that get hot, like Okur the other night for Utah. I don't know if he's too old, or if the game has simply passed him by, but I never see him up coaching our team during games, he never makes adjustments, never challenges our players to step up their game.....he just sits there, emotionless, blank facial expression, never seems to talk, coach, or explain things to players during games. Harter is worthless, and needs to be fired immediately. Bring in a bright young high energy guy that can get in the face of our guys and kick them in the butt if neccessary to play better defense.

There is nothing wrong with our offense...it's one of the best in the league. It's our defense that needs immediate change!!!!

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 09:22 AM
Oh...save me.

This has to be a joke, right? I'm sure we all have better things to do than complain about the assistant coaches.

maragin
01-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Can we just fire the guy who thought we needed to say "Home Run!" after making a 3? I think the franchise went downhill when that started.

NashvilleKat
01-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Oh...save me.

This has to be a joke, right? I'm sure we all have better things to do than complain about the assistant coaches.


Then why did Bird depend so much on Carlisle and Harter, why did Carlisle need Mike Brown. Just dump all the assistants if they have no responsibility and no effect on coaching players and game strategies.

Most successful teams have more assistant specialists than we do. I wonder why.........

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 09:40 AM
Can we just fire the guy who thought we needed to say "Home Run!" after making a 3? I think the franchise went downhill when that started.
Is it that big of a deal? I've gotten used to it, and like it. It's a lot less annoying than many other arenas with their odd noises and idiotic yelling after their team hits a trey.


Then why did Bird depend so much on Carlisle and Harter, why did Carlisle need Mike Brown. Just dump all the assistants if they have no responsibility and no effect on coaching players and game strategies.

Most successful teams have more assistant specialists than we do. I wonder why.........
Oh, please.

DisplacedKnick
01-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Yes! DO IT!!!!

Then DW can hire him and we can start getting our act in gear - strange that even with D'Antoni's uptempo offense the games we win seem to be the ones where we give more effort on D.

Major Cold
01-14-2009, 09:44 AM
Fire JOB, Harter, Bird, trainers, and Morway. Trade everyone they are worthless. Hell lets just sell the team.

joew8302
01-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Man, when all you can say is oh please the guy must have a point. A basketball team is like a car, everyone has to do their part to make it run effictevly. Right now the car that is the Pacers isn't running effictevly so we need to make changes. Getting rid of anyone that has to do with our current defense makes sense.

31andonly
01-14-2009, 09:54 AM
Dick Harter was brought in as a defensive specialist coach. His only job is to teach our players to play defense, develop defensive strategies for each game, and adjust our defense during games to shut down players that get hot, like Okur the other night for Utah. I don't know if he's too old, or if the game has simply passed him by, but I never see him up coaching our team during games, he never makes adjustments, never challenges our players to step up their game.....he just sits there, emotionless, blank facial expression, never seems to talk, coach, or explain things to players during games. Harter is worthless, and needs to be fired immediately. Bring in a bright young high energy guy that can get in the face of our guys and kick them in the butt if neccessary to play better defense.

There is nothing wrong with our offense...it's one of the best in the league. It's our defense that needs immediate change!!!!

I don't understand all the negative comments concerning your post! I agree 100 %.
Our defense is (one of) the worst in the league.
Why shouldn't we talk about our defensive coach?

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 10:17 AM
Man, when all you can say is oh please the guy must have a point. A basketball team is like a car, everyone has to do their part to make it run effictevly. Right now the car that is the Pacers isn't running effictevly so we need to make changes. Getting rid of anyone that has to do with our current defense makes sense.
I say "oh, please" because it isn't entirely the coach's fault.

I've got a million metaphors and analogies I could use, but it's not worth it today...

Justin Tyme
01-14-2009, 10:23 AM
Dick Harter was brought in as a defensive specialist coach. His only job is to teach our players to play defense, develop defensive strategies for each game, and adjust our defense during games to shut down players that get hot, like Okur the other night for Utah. I don't know if he's too old, or if the game has simply passed him by, but I never see him up coaching our team during games, he never makes adjustments, never challenges our players to step up their game.....he just sits there, emotionless, blank facial expression, never seems to talk, coach, or explain things to players during games. Harter is worthless, and needs to be fired immediately. Bring in a bright young high energy guy that can get in the face of our guys and kick them in the butt if neccessary to play better defense.

There is nothing wrong with our offense...it's one of the best in the league. It's our defense that needs immediate change!!!!


Did you not read my post #13 in response to your post #11 in the "I'm Tired Of Hearing About The Defense" thread? If you had, you would not have started this thread about firing Dick Harter, b/c Harter isn't the Pacers "D" coach this season. This is kind of a wasted thread about Harter isn't it?

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Did you not read my post #13 in response to your post #11 in the "I'm Tired Of Hearing About The Defense" thread? If you had, you would not have started this thread about firing Dick Harter, b/c Harter isn't the Pacers "D" coach this season. This is kind of a wasted thread about Harter isn't it?
I honestly think he doesn't have much to do with the "defense" of our team.

Either way, you're right. This could be moved to that thread, Justin.

Shade
01-14-2009, 10:29 AM
What exactly, then, is Harter doing here?

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 10:31 AM
What exactly, then, is Harter doing here?
Who knows, but that doesn't justify firing him.

count55
01-14-2009, 10:31 AM
I really, really miss the ignore thread function.

Shade
01-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Who knows, but that doesn't justify firing him.

If nobody knows what he's doing here, then I'd say that does justify firing him, wouldn't you?

joew8302
01-14-2009, 10:35 AM
If he isn't doing anything productive here then he does need to be let go. Obviously defense is a problem and he is the main guy overseeing the defense, correct? What am I missing?

Will someone who thinks this thread is "dumb" or a "waste of time" please make a case for keeping him around.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 10:38 AM
If he isn't doing anything productive here then he does need to be let go. Obviously defense is a problem and he is the main guy overseeing the defense, correct? What am I missing?

Will someone who thinks this thread is "dumb" or a "waste of time" please make a case for keeping him around.
I just feel like we can keep this thread among other discussions.

Shade
01-14-2009, 10:40 AM
I just feel like we can keep this thread among other discussions.

I think it's okay to separate this from the JOB thread, since it's dealing with a completely different person.

Major Cold
01-14-2009, 10:48 AM
Do all of you know the inner workings of each specific coach and trainer? Are you in their heads when the did or did not make adjustments? Firing Carisle did not help, getting rid of players did not help, and Walsh leaving did not help. Good thing the finger pointing is not happening in the locker room, eh?

It takes 9 months of pregnancy to have a baby. It takes more than 4 months of a helter skelter roster to produce. I say give this coaching staff till next December, then make a move. JOB has been here through the changing of the roster and you all act as if he has done nothing. Maybe make some assistant changes if JOB warrants it.

Shade
01-14-2009, 10:50 AM
I think it's reasonable to wonder what Harter's job position here is.

nerveghost
01-14-2009, 10:51 AM
Dick Harter has been widely regarded around the league as one of the best defensive coaches in the game. He worked with Chuck Daly's "Bad Boys" in the early 80's. His defensive schemes got the Knicks to the finals with Pat Riley in the early 90's, and a 60 win season. Bird credits him with getting us to the finals - which is impressive considering the personnel we had (Jackson, Miller, Rose, Mullin, Smits - not what you would consider defensive giants)

Plus I met him in an elevator once and he had really white teeth (or dentures).

Major Cold
01-14-2009, 10:53 AM
Dick Harter has been widely regarded around the league as one of the best defensive coaches in the game. He worked with Chuck Daly's "Bad Boys" in the early 80's. His defensive schemes got the Knicks to the finals with Pat Riley in the early 90's, and a 60 win season. Bird credits him with getting us to the finals - which is impressive considering the personnel we had (Jackson, Miller, Rose, Mullin, Smits - not what you would consider defensive giants)

Plus I met him in an elevator once and he had really white teeth (or dentures).
Dale Davis?

Major Cold
01-14-2009, 10:54 AM
Reasonable yes, but calling for his head before we know what exactly that is? No

count55
01-14-2009, 10:58 AM
If he isn't doing anything productive here then he does need to be let go. Obviously defense is a problem and he is the main guy overseeing the defense, correct? What am I missing?

Will someone who thinks this thread is "dumb" or a "waste of time" please make a case for keeping him around.

Basically, it's a coaching staff. This isn't like football where there is a clear cut defensive coordinator with a potentially different philosophy. As to whether Harter is hands on or just consulting, the defensive philosophy will not change with his replacement. If the philosophy won't change, and you think the philosophy's the problem, the you have to fire O'Brien on down. If you're fine with the philosophy, but you think the execution is being poorly coached, then Lester Conner's your man.

In either case, firing Harter likely accomplishes little or nothing positive.

But, what's most objectionable about this is that it's yet another venting that offers no constructive solutions. Effectively, it says, "I don't know what's wrong with the Defense, and I don't know how to fix it, but it sucks, and I want somebody to pay."

While seeing somebody pay for the failures may be satisfying on an emotional level, it does not advance the cause of the defense or the team unless there it is a part of a clear plan to fix the problem.

count55
01-14-2009, 10:59 AM
I think it's reasonable to wonder what Harter's job position here is.

Yes, it is...but that is vastly different than laying the blame for the failures at his feet and calling for his head.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 11:03 AM
I think it's okay to separate this from the JOB thread, since it's dealing with a completely different person.
Well, the original arguement was that he is not making our defense better.

Spirit
01-14-2009, 11:08 AM
Is it that big of a deal? I've gotten used to it, and like it. It's a lot less annoying than many other arenas with their odd noises and idiotic yelling after their team hits a trey.Agreed. I like it, and it's unique.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 11:09 AM
Agreed. I like it, and it's unique.
I honestly do love it. If they stopped I would be sad.

Major Cold
01-14-2009, 11:11 AM
I don't care either way.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't care either way.
I know. But I do. lol :buddies:

nerveghost
01-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Dale Davis was a badass. First play of his first game of his rookie year, he put somebody on the ground. A Dale Davis for this team would be nice.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 11:25 AM
Dale Davis was a badass. First play of his first game of his rookie year, he put somebody on the ground. A Dale Davis for this team would be nice.
For sure.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Lets be honest, who on this board even knows what the function/duties of each ast coach is? I couldn't even tell you who all the Pacers coaches are. Like most I remember Harter was originally brought in with O'Brien to run the defense which he did last year. Up until recently, I thought Harter was still running the "D". There is no reason to call for Harter's head if he's not responsible for the "D". The man is being crucified for something he's not in charge of doing. This makes this thread absolutely ridiculous.

Food for thought: if Harter was in control of the "D" last year compare the 1st 38 games of the opponents average game score against the opponents 1st 38 games of this season average game score. The Pacers have given up an average of 114.5 points in the 1st 38 games this year. How does that compare against Harter's last year defense for the 1st 38 games?

idioteque
01-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Can we just fire the guy who thought we needed to say "Home Run!" after making a 3? I think the franchise went downhill when that started.

YES

This is not baseball, and it just sounds stupid. Can someone kick this guy in the teeth?

CableKC
01-14-2009, 01:08 PM
Could someone clarify for me IF Harter ever ran the defense this season?

If so, at what point did the current Defensive coordinator took over?

joew8302
01-14-2009, 01:27 PM
Basically, it's a coaching staff. This isn't like football where there is a clear cut defensive coordinator with a potentially different philosophy. As to whether Harter is hands on or just consulting, the defensive philosophy will not change with his replacement. If the philosophy won't change, and you think the philosophy's the problem, the you have to fire O'Brien on down. If you're fine with the philosophy, but you think the execution is being poorly coached, then Lester Conner's your man.

In either case, firing Harter likely accomplishes little or nothing positive.

But, what's most objectionable about this is that it's yet another venting that offers no constructive solutions. Effectively, it says, "I don't know what's wrong with the Defense, and I don't know how to fix it, but it sucks, and I want somebody to pay."

While seeing somebody pay for the failures may be satisfying on an emotional level, it does not advance the cause of the defense or the team unless there it is a part of a clear plan to fix the problem.


Fair enough, I will buy that. I will however contend that Granger, Daniels, Ford, Jack and Foster are all average to above average defenders. Do I expect our defense to be great? no. But it should be better than what it is. I don't care whose job it costs to change/fix this, but things do need changed around here and I think change is possible with the tools we have.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-14-2009, 02:11 PM
This team doesn't have the defensive talent. If half of the team are average defenders and the rest are less than average that makes a less than average defensive team, right?

I see it this way. Danny Granger, Jeff Foster, Marquis Daniels & Jarrett Jack are the players the coaching staff have deemed quality defenders. The rest are poor defenders. Whether that's due to foot speed, size, B-Ball IQ, experience etc...

nerveghost
01-14-2009, 02:39 PM
If half of the team are average defenders and the rest are less than average that makes a less than average defensive team, right?

Its a gray area for me. My gut tells me it is possible to have one or two really good individual defenders, and the rest average to below average individual defenders (with heart), and still have a really good team defense. I keep mentioning this, but its the only way I can explain how a team starting Smits, Davis, Rose, Miller, and Jackson ever made it to the finals.

I think Obee's system is more about being in the right place at the right time than being a good individual defender; However, a team still needs some lock-down guys in crunch time.

I think San Antonio is a perfect model. You've got Duncan to control the paint, Bowen is your lock-down guy on the big scorers, and Parker is quick enough to keep PG's in front of him. The rest of the team just knows the scheme and where to be.

Mourning
01-14-2009, 03:22 PM
I really, really miss the ignore thread function.

:amen:

Firing Harter would constitute an absolute TRAVESTY in my book.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-14-2009, 03:35 PM
Smits, Davis, Rose, Miller, and Jackson ever made it to the finals.



Who on this team can even compare to those guys defensively at that particular time in their careers. They may have not been known for their D but at that point they were all seasoned vets w/ tons of post-season play. They also had McKey, Best, Mullin & Perkins rotating in and those guys were either considered defensive players or highly seasoned as well. That team was also a tightly knit group of guys that had been thru alot together.

They were a unit.
Reggie had been there 13 years
Smits 12
Dale 9
McKey 7
Jacko 6
Best 5
Rosey 4
Mullin 3
Crosh 3
Smooth 2


This is a young team with no experience. They have no idea what it takes to even close a team out in December let alone come playoff time.

Unclebuck
01-14-2009, 03:59 PM
I thought we've had this discussion. Harter is not in charge of the defense. He's 78 years old . Lester Conner is in charge of the defense - although JOB is probably heavily involved.

Seems to me if someone is going to start a thread calling for the firing of someone - that a little thought, a little research is in order

Unclebuck
01-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Lets be honest, who on this board even knows what the function/duties of each ast coach is? I couldn't even tell you who all the Pacers coaches are. Like most I remember Harter was originally brought in with O'Brien to run the defense which he did last year. Up until recently, I thought Harter was still running the "D". There is no reason to call for Harter's head if he's not responsible for the "D". The man is being crucified for something he's not in charge of doing. This makes this thread absolutely ridiculous.

Food for thought: if Harter was in control of the "D" last year compare the 1st 38 games of the opponents average game score against the opponents 1st 38 games of this season average game score. The Pacers have given up an average of 114.5 points in the 1st 38 games this year. How does that compare against Harter's last year defense for the 1st 38 games?

n his radion show back in November O'Brien stated what each coach does and explained what their roles are. Call him up Thursday night and ask. This isn't the Soviet Union in 1968

Unclebuck
01-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Could someone clarify for me IF Harter ever ran the defense this season?

If so, at what point did the current Defensive coordinator took over?

No he hasn't this season or last season -

Suaveness
01-14-2009, 04:29 PM
It's threads like these that make me want to jump off a building.

vnzla81
01-14-2009, 04:46 PM
I thought we've had this discussion. Harter is not in charge of the defense. He's 78 years old . Lester Conner is in charge of the defense - although JOB is probably heavily involved.

Seems to me if someone is going to start a thread calling for the firing of someone - that a little thought, a little research is in order

we should start a thread "the firing Unclebuck thread" :rolleyes: jaja

CableKC
01-14-2009, 04:48 PM
No he hasn't this season or last season -
So.......uhh...what's the point of this thread?

If anything...it should be renamed to "Official Dire Lester Connor Thread".

Justin Tyme
01-14-2009, 06:42 PM
No he hasn't this season or last season -


Then why does everyone believe Harter has been in charge of the defense? IIRC, when JO"B was hired it was stated Harter was coming on board to run the defense. I can understand this year, but it's hard to understand Harter wasn't in control of the defense last season.

Believe me just b/c one is 78 or older doesn't mean they are a non-functional invalid. Harter's age shouldn't be a factor.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 08:05 PM
I thought we've had this discussion. Harter is not in charge of the defense. He's 78 years old . Lester Conner is in charge of the defense - although JOB is probably heavily involved.

Seems to me if someone is going to start a thread calling for the firing of someone - that a little thought, a little research is in order
Leave it up to UncleBuck to give us a little rationality.

Thank you.

Brian
01-14-2009, 09:04 PM
Ok,I guess im going to rant here.

I remember back when we shipped out the 11/19 group (jax,artest..others).I saw several posts from members on here being extremely worried about our defense once we brought in Dun and Murph,and in typical pacers fan eyes (glass is half full,not empty) outlook.Those people who were worried about our defense were quickly told that they were "overreacting" and that we would be better off.Well,now here it is in everyones face..no denying it now.

Now back to topic


I remember when Dick Harter was brought in everyone was in "OMG,this guy is the greatest".."We are going to hold teams to the least points"...blah blah.

So I figure if we have a thread praising him,why not have a thread on the flip side?.

If I was brought in to mop floors all day,and every week the floor got dirtier and dirtier,im sure id be fired.
Of course I doubt I would have anyone standing up for me saying that my mops were no good.Sometimes its not the tools for the job,But its the person using them.

So what im saying is why is he here?.Its obvious he has not done his job this year.But realisticly he wont be fired unless JOB gets fired and Bird decides not to retain him,or if Dick decides to leave on his own.

Reguardless of whos in charge,hopefully next year there will be a change.Its easier to change coaches than it is to trade a whole team.(Or overpaid non-defensive players)

Roaming Gnome
01-15-2009, 12:21 AM
I thought Dick Harter was recognized for his teaching of fundamentals like stance and foot work when it came to the Bird coaching years. Yeah, I know he was responsible for the scheme at the time, but I thought his great claim to fame was as a teacher on the fundamentals of defense.

That being the case, I can see why he is around... That being the case, I can see someone else being responsible for the scheme.

This thread is worthless!!!

duke dynamite
01-15-2009, 12:27 AM
Pretty much.

The worst way to create conversation is to create controversy.

ABADays
01-15-2009, 09:31 AM
Can we just fire the guy who thought we needed to say "Home Run!" after making a 3? I think the franchise went downhill when that started.

That goes clear back to the ABA Days.