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MyFavMartin
01-11-2009, 11:44 PM
Any thoughts from the peanut gallery?

Shade
01-11-2009, 11:45 PM
We're not going to make the playoffs if we keep losing to bad teams.

Also, our defense keeps getting worse.

FireTheCoach
01-11-2009, 11:46 PM
well..... I never had any real hopes of the team getting to the POs this year much less doing advancing if they did get lucky enough to get there.

In saying that.... I'm much enjoying watching this team more than any other we've had for a few years now. It sucks seeing them lose so many close games but it's still fun to watch for 47 1/2 minutes a night.

Jon Theodore
01-11-2009, 11:47 PM
I am done watching Pacers, unless I hear on sportscenter that they went on a 5 game winning streak I am done.

Grangers defense was a joke tonight, apparently he is only concerned with his scoring now. He only played defense in the first five minutes of the game. I love Granger, but he needs to play defense. He left his man at least five times I saw, for a wide open bucket. He didn't even hustle to close out on the shooter.

I am really glad we have Jarrett Jack so he can foul Jamal Crawford shooting threes on two occasions.

This team is disgusting and we are going to get a really high draft pick in the worst draft in a long time, GREAT JOB GUYS.

MyFavMartin
01-11-2009, 11:47 PM
One idea: Why doesn't JOB go small by having Danny at the 4 AND having him post up in the block against the smaller Warriors?

I'd imagine a high-low offense with Rasho/Roy at the shoulder/top for beating the double team and instead of jacking jumpshots, we'd be getting to the line and working the cutting lanes on the backside.

Lord Helmet
01-11-2009, 11:47 PM
We're not going to make the playoffs if we keep losing to bad teams.

Also, out defense keeps getting worse.
Playoffs seem very out of the question right now. Someone please tell me I'm overreacting....

Granger was great, again, but the defense was terrible....again.

JBones19
01-11-2009, 11:48 PM
I am done watching Pacers, unless I hear on sportscenter that they went on a 5 game winning streak I am done.

Bandwagon much?

Some people's expectations are way to high. This isn't THAT talented of a team. It hasn't been for 3-4 years. Like everything else, sports teams tend to be cyclical. I am impressed at how well we play the top teams, but we aren't mature enough or talented enough yet to play with that kind of intensity and precision night in and night out. We're getting better, and I for one, and am enjoying watching and cheering during these times so when we start winning these games in a few years, it makes it that much sweeter. Just my two cents.

Hicks
01-11-2009, 11:49 PM
It's funny... as bad as this defense can be, it only needs to be improved slightly for many of these games to fall our way. They're in damn near every game right down to the end.

LoneGranger33
01-11-2009, 11:49 PM
Bandwagon much?

Uhh, he did just stay up to watch a 13-23 team, didn't he? I don't think we need to go questioning other people's fanhoods again. That was soooo 2005.

denmunny6
01-11-2009, 11:49 PM
Ya I feel the same way. I hate that the team keeps losing, but I'm still watching the games any chance I get (school keeps me very busy). I know my fandom will prolly get questioned, but the proposition of getting a low draft pick coupled with hibbert and brush's development makes me very excited. Not rooting for the tank, but think about the possibilities!

ajbry
01-11-2009, 11:50 PM
It was a pretty horrible display of basketball for both sides save Danny's usual offensive prowess...

But to even think there's a remote chance of EITHER team to make the playoffs is absurd. It ain't happening. Neither team plays any defense and both are terribly coached.

Jon Theodore
01-11-2009, 11:50 PM
Bandwagon much?

I've been a diehard Pacers fan since I was 10 years old. (I am 24 now)

It is too depressing to spend a good portion of my night watching this team throw away game after game.

The lack of defense is just hard to watch. I mean Granger is supposed to be a gifted defensive player and any non delusional person should have seen how he didn't even play defense tonight.

Scoring 42 points is great, but it means jack when you lose.

LoneGranger33
01-11-2009, 11:50 PM
It's funny... as bad as this defense can be, it only needs to be improved slightly for many of these games to fall our way. They're in damn near every game right down to the end.

Which is why it is so damn frustrating, ain't it? Any one mistake corrected could have won us the game tonight. At least the Steelers won.

d_c
01-11-2009, 11:51 PM
Playoffs seem very out of the question right now. Someone please tell me I'm overreacting.....

You guys are 3 games out of 8th place in the loss column with a little more than half the season to play.

The 7th and 8th seeds in the East are anybody's ballgame.

Jon Theodore
01-11-2009, 11:51 PM
Ya I feel the same way. I hate that the team keeps losing, but I'm still watching the games any chance I get (school keeps me very busy). I know my fandom will prolly get questioned, but the proposition of getting a low draft pick coupled with hibbert and brush's development makes me very excited. Not rooting for the tank, but think about the possibilities!

Rush doesn't look like he is going to develop into much more than a rotational player. Hibbert will have a solid NBA career.

Cherokee
01-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Playoffs seem very out of the question right now. Someone please tell me I'm overreacting....
.

I don't know. The Pacers are only four games out of the 8th playoff spot now, and there are some really bad teams ahead of them.

vnzla81
01-11-2009, 11:52 PM
we are in the 8th place right now. stephen curry anybody?

theboyjwo
01-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Grangers gotta know he can't leave Crawford to cheat toward the lane, that last 3 was on all him.

FireTheCoach
01-11-2009, 11:54 PM
Ya I feel the same way. I hate that the team keeps losing, but I'm still watching the games any chance I get (school keeps me very busy). I know my fandom will prolly get questioned, but the proposition of getting a low draft pick coupled with hibbert and brush's development makes me very excited. Not rooting for the tank, but think about the possibilities!

yeah.... I feel ya on this. It's what keeps me going.

BRushWithDeath
01-11-2009, 11:54 PM
The defense was terrible tonight. And it started with Murphy. As usual.

On another note: All of Rasho's minutes should go to Hibbert. All of Foster's minutes should go to McRoberts. Neither vet gives more than their younger understudies.

Jon Theodore
01-11-2009, 11:54 PM
Glad to see i'm not the only one aware of Grangers horrible defense tonight.

BRushWithDeath
01-11-2009, 11:55 PM
I don't know. The Pacers are only four games out of the 8th playoff spot now, and there are some really bad teams ahead of them.

News flash:

The Pacers are a really bad team.

ajbry
01-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Glad to see i'm not the only one aware of Grangers horrible defense tonight.

FWIW, the Warriors broadcasters were raving about his D... I don't see how he gets so overrated on that end - it's actually pretty amazing at this point.

vnzla81
01-11-2009, 11:56 PM
they are not making it to the playoff, they are going to play really good teams in the next two weeks and probably be 5 to 8 more games under 500

JBones19
01-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Uhh, he did just stay up to watch a 13-23 team, didn't he? I don't think we need to go questioning other people's fanhoods again. That was soooo 2005.

Well he did say he was done with this team, but way to stick up for him.

Bball
01-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Defense.... defense... defense....

We run an unstructured helter skelter offense and have players that can score, but we have no defense and apparently no desire to implement any defense or even pretend to address it.

If you don't play defense, you lose. I don't care how good the offense is, if you don't play defense- you lose. On top of that, contrary probably to the stats, I don't think we play good offense either. The lack of structure likely is part of the problem on the other end of the court. Yes, we score a lot of points (a lot of good that does us), but it's totally unstructured.

If Jim OBrien is a defensive minded coach, as some have argued, you won't prove it by these Pacers. And whoever mentioned the corner 3's that we leave open with regularity might want to look at tapes of last year because you'll see that same flaw... over and over again. You'd think that might be corrected in the span of a year's time.

So IMHO this offense is KILLING the team. That's right... the problem isn't just a need to 'fix' the defense, it's to rein in the offense and put some structure into the game.

At best we trade baskets with the opposition. But even with that, if we can't play defense then it doesn't matter how much time is on the clock, they'll score the winning basket.

Defense Defense Defense...

If this is Jim OBrien's grand plan for restoring Pacer basketball, then please ask him to start packing and I will give him a ride to the airport.

JBones19
01-11-2009, 11:58 PM
I've been a diehard Pacers fan since I was 10 years old. (I am 24 now)

It is too depressing to spend a good portion of my night watching this team throw away game after game.

The lack of defense is just hard to watch. I mean Granger is supposed to be a gifted defensive player and any non delusional person should have seen how he didn't even play defense tonight.

Scoring 42 points is great, but it means jack when you lose.

All the more reason to keep on keepin' on, it'll get better.

Cherokee
01-11-2009, 11:59 PM
News flash:

The Pacers are a really bad team.

I'm not disputing that -- I'm just saying they are not that far out of the eighth playoff position. Oh, well, it beats watching Law & Order every night of the week.

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:00 AM
FWIW, the Warriors broadcasters were raving about his D... I don't see how he gets so overrated on that end - it's actually pretty amazing at this point.

Danny is a good defender when he is guarding his guy, but when he has to guard Troy,Dun and Jacks guy, not even Kobe could do that

LoneGranger33
01-12-2009, 12:00 AM
Well he did say he was done with this team, but way to stick up for him.

That's the frustration talking. The last thing we need now is forum feuds. It's like a lockerroom in here; the more losses we accumulate, the worse chemistry we have as a forum. We just have to separate our frustrations from the way we deal with others. Look at me for example - I have the ****tiest job and no friends, but I'm a nice guy nonetheless.

JBones19
01-12-2009, 12:00 AM
Defense.... defense... defense....

We run an unstructured helter skelter offense and have players that can score, but we have no defense and apparently no desire to implement any defense or even pretend to address it.

If you don't play defense, you lose.

You are right on. Did you see the graphic they put up tonight during the game? In Oct/Nov. we were allowing 99pts a game. In Dec. it was up to like 105. In the month of Jan. 117. Our D is getting worse!

LoneGranger33
01-12-2009, 12:01 AM
If this is Jim OBrien's grand plan for restoring Pacer basketball, then please ask him to start packing and I will give him a ride to the airport.

I wouldn't want to be in the backseat of that car...awkward!

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 12:02 AM
On another note: All of Rasho's minutes should go to Hibbert. All of Foster's minutes should go to McRoberts. Neither vet gives more than their younger understudies.


I wrote this as a mere sidebar earlier but I've given it a little more thought. It's exactly right. I may put this in every game thread the rest of the year.

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:03 AM
On another note: All of Rasho's minutes should go to Hibbert. All of Foster's minutes should go to McRoberts. Neither vet gives more than their younger understudies.


I wrote this as a mere sidebar earlier but I've given it a little more thought. It's exactly right. I may put this in every game thread the rest of the year.

that won't happen JOB hates those guys

MrSparko
01-12-2009, 12:03 AM
That's the frustration talking. The last thing we need now is forum feuds. It's like a lockerroom in here; the more losses we accumulate, the worse chemistry we have as a forum. We just have to separate our frustrations from the way we deal with others. Look at me for example - I have the ****tiest job and no friends, but I'm a nice guy nonetheless.

I'll be your Huckleberry.

imawhat
01-12-2009, 12:04 AM
Glad to see i'm not the only one aware of Grangers horrible defense tonight.

But you are.

avoidingtheclowns
01-12-2009, 12:04 AM
I have the ****tiest job and no friends

1

MyFavMartin
01-12-2009, 12:04 AM
ANYONE: Why doesn't JOB go small by having Danny at the 4 AND having him post up in the block against the smaller Warriors and getting to the FT or easy shots?

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:05 AM
can somebody start a draft watch thread?

count55
01-12-2009, 12:05 AM
I've made a couple of comments about Danny tonight that were kind of negative. It has more to do with increasing expectations: the next thing I want him to improve.

Clearly, in a 42-point game, there's a lot to like, but after acknowledging the disappointments, I want to hit what I really liked:

-His shot wasn't there in the fourth, particularly, so he attacked the basket, getting a dunk, a driving layup, and 6 free throws.
- 15 points in the 4th
- I think we're going to remember those two threes from this road trip. The one in Phoenix to win, and the one tonight to put us up one. Tonight's was especially impressive because he'd spent most of the fourth looking like he was throwing the ball at the basket and hoping it would go in. I'm at the point that I now believe we need to install some of the old Reggie plays to get him shots at the end of the game.

LoneGranger33
01-12-2009, 12:06 AM
can somebody start a draft watch thread?

Has been done already.

FireTheCoach
01-12-2009, 12:06 AM
forum fueds are cool

LoneGranger33
01-12-2009, 12:07 AM
I think we're going to remember those two threes from this road trip. The one in Phoenix to win, and the one tonight to put us up one. Tonight's was especially impressive because he'd spent most of the fourth looking like he was throwing the ball at the basket and hoping it would go in. I'm at the point that I now believe we need to install some of the old Reggie plays to get him shots at the end of the game.

Agreed, but don't you think calling plays on offense is old-fashioned?

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-12-2009, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't want to be in the backseat of that car...awkward!

haha thanks for making me laugh after that depressing loss.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Defense.... defense... defense....

We run an unstructured helter skelter offense and have players that can score, but we have no defense and apparently no desire to implement any defense or even pretend to address it.

If you don't play defense, you lose. I don't care how good the offense is, if you don't play defense- you lose. On top of that, contrary probably to the stats, I don't think we play good offense either. The lack of structure likely is part of the problem on the other end of the court. Yes, we score a lot of points (a lot of good that does us), but it's totally unstructured.

If Jim OBrien is a defensive minded coach, as some have argued, you won't prove it by these Pacers. And whoever mentioned the corner 3's that we leave open with regularity might want to look at tapes of last year because you'll see that same flaw... over and over again. You'd think that might be corrected in the span of a year's time.

So IMHO this offense is KILLING the team. That's right... the problem isn't just a need to 'fix' the defense, it's to rein in the offense and put some structure into the game.

At best we trade baskets with the opposition. But even with that, if we can't play defense then it doesn't matter how much time is on the clock, they'll score the winning basket.

Defense Defense Defense...

If this is Jim OBrien's grand plan for restoring Pacer basketball, then please ask him to start packing and I will give him a ride to the airport.


I can't add anything to your post. It pretty much says it all.

FireTheCoach
01-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Defense.... defense... defense....

We run an unstructured helter skelter offense and have players that can score, but we have no defense and apparently no desire to implement any defense or even pretend to address it.

If you don't play defense, you lose. I don't care how good the offense is, if you don't play defense- you lose. On top of that, contrary probably to the stats, I don't think we play good offense either. The lack of structure likely is part of the problem on the other end of the court. Yes, we score a lot of points (a lot of good that does us), but it's totally unstructured.

If Jim OBrien is a defensive minded coach, as some have argued, you won't prove it by these Pacers. And whoever mentioned the corner 3's that we leave open with regularity might want to look at tapes of last year because you'll see that same flaw... over and over again. You'd think that might be corrected in the span of a year's time.

So IMHO this offense is KILLING the team. That's right... the problem isn't just a need to 'fix' the defense, it's to rein in the offense and put some structure into the game.

At best we trade baskets with the opposition. But even with that, if we can't play defense then it doesn't matter how much time is on the clock, they'll score the winning basket.

Defense Defense Defense...

If this is Jim OBrien's grand plan for restoring Pacer basketball, then please ask him to start packing and I will give him a ride to the airport.


:king:

JayRedd
01-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Scoring 42 points is great, but it means jack when you lose.

Means a hell of a lot more to me than a January win in Oakland ever would.


On another note: All of Rasho's minutes should go to Hibbert. All of Foster's minutes should go to McRoberts. Neither vet gives more than their younger understudies.

Jeff is one of the best rebounders in the history of the NBA.


but I'm a nice guy nonetheless.

Agree to disagree.

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Agreed, but don't you think calling plays on offense is old-fashioned?

JOB would only make calls for jack or foster

Bball
01-12-2009, 12:10 AM
. I'm at the point that I now believe we need to install some of the old Reggie plays to get him shots at the end of the game.

I'm sorry Count but that would require some structure to the offense and our offense looks more like a Chinese fire drill and it's apparently the plan.

Has George "You can't score if you don't shoot" from Hoosiers taken over as coach of the Pacers?

imawhat
01-12-2009, 12:11 AM
Very exhausting game to watch. Golden State is a very easy team to beat, but we failed. They played a hard game last night and should've ran out of gas early, but the Pacers were the team looking fried.

Tough loss considering they have to turn around and play again tomorrow night. I feel horribly for Granger.

Dunleavy is too easily thrown off by outside factors. He was not playing his game tonight.

I think we should play no more team defense. Or play a zone all game. Might as well throw things against the wall to see if anything sticks.

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:13 AM
my only hope now is that they get a nice draft pick:(

Peck
01-12-2009, 12:13 AM
Means a hell of a lot more to me than a January win in Oakland ever would.



Jeff is one of the best rebounders in the history of the NBA.



Agree to disagree.

Please tell me all of this is hyperbole.

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 12:15 AM
Jeff is one of the best rebounders in the history of the NBA.


He's not a good enough rebounder to justify being a complete and utter liability offensively and a mediocre defender. Especially, when there is no chance he'll ever get better. We've seen his ceiling. And it isn't very high.

Dr. Hibbert
01-12-2009, 12:16 AM
I love watching this team. Would I like to see them play smarter? Or just play defense in general? Of course. But these guys are so much more fun to watch than the last few years, I'm hardly complaining about the effort.

MyFavMartin
01-12-2009, 12:16 AM
I think the some of our players still can't stop dribble penetration (Dunleavey, Murphy), so we end up rotating to cover the drives, leading to the open 3s.

If we had Daniels, we'd be much better tonight. At least we'd have someone to guard Crawford.

LoneGranger33
01-12-2009, 12:17 AM
Well, it's going to be hard for me to defend Diener for a while... (figuratively, that is)

Dr. Goldfoot
01-12-2009, 12:35 AM
What's up with the bashing of Jeff Foster? It's completely unwarranted. I'm not even going to list the positive attributes of this guy.

You're blind
and you can't see
you need to wear some glasses
like DMC

Jeff Foster doesn't lose basketball games.

Midcoasted
01-12-2009, 12:38 AM
Granger is unstoppable and we are trying to build a team around him. I love the direction we are heading. Pretty much every game is coming down to the final few posessions. We are playing with emotion and intensity. We just can't close these games out. Hopefully that changes.

Me, I won't give up on this team until the fat lady sings, until they have zero chance. I never have. I know regardless of what team we are playing we have a chance to win. In the past I never give up until the end but I hated our team. It was so boring and we were gauranteed to get the **** kicked out us by the better teams. I don't look ahead to games this year thinking we have no chance of winning. I know there's a good chance it will be hard fought. If we start winning hard fought games it doesn't matter who we are playing, all these people we are playing are paid millions of dollars and so are we. There needs to be a basketball phrase for the any given Sunday thing football has. Anyday any team can win. But we aren't just sneaking in wins on the leagues best we are playing with them for more than 80-90 percent of the game. It's just ironic that we play the losing teams the same way. It's always coming down to some bad fouls and missed oppurtunities.

We play Golden State just as well as we play the Lakers. To some it doesn't make sense, but to me, it makes alot of sense. Only once we start distancing ourselves from those bad teams will we become one of the better teams. I guess only time can tell.

I almost want to start a thread but I won't. Who cares about hard swings in our schedule? We are playing those games the same as every other game. Every game is a hard game, for both teams. It's like a playoff game every night. I freakin love it! It is dissapointing when we lose though...

Basketball Fan
01-12-2009, 12:42 AM
well..... I never had any real hopes of the team getting to the POs this year much less doing advancing if they did get lucky enough to get there.

In saying that.... I'm much enjoying watching this team more than any other we've had for a few years now. It sucks seeing them lose so many close games but it's still fun to watch for 47 1/2 minutes a night.

I agree its not like the Colts where its just this endless tease. You know the Pacers are young and considering the past few years did not even play interesting ball let alone competitive.

They are at the least competitive of course it would be great if they actually won most of these games they blow but I'm enjoying their growing pains right now.

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 12:49 AM
Jeff Foster doesn't lose basketball games.

And he doesn't do anything to win them.

Brad8888
01-12-2009, 12:53 AM
Control the tempo. Slow down the game against running teams, use our speed against teams that prefer half court. We should not be one-style-fits-all. Plainly our coach adjusts our lineups prior to games to avoid matchup problems for our rookies and slower players. Why can't he also adjust the game plan to frustrate the opposition by not catering to the dream of most NBA players -- high scoring, boxscore stuffing, season statistic (there's that word) inflating, future contract enhancing track meets that allow them the freedom that many of their coaches can't stand due to the bad habits it instills in the players. In the NBA, nearly any player who has much experience can score in an up and down game. Why else would nearly all of our games be nailbiters regardless of the record of the opponent coming in?

Even more to the point, why not specifically slow things down against the lower level teams that we are all so frustrated due to their being so much better against us than their record would suggest, and then ramp up to our current level when we play strong playoff contending teams. We may actually have something in the tank, which I still contend is a factor down the stretch in our long season, to make a push to the end of the season if we can get ourselves a few more W's compared to what we have grown maddeningly accustomed to.

jeffg-body
01-12-2009, 12:54 AM
fun game to watch. I didn't expect too much in the win department this early in the year, but I do like the team chemistry. They are a hell of a lot better playing now and definitely fun to watch. We have to remember the youth that we have and not try to expect too much from them this year. The vets need to do a little more mentoring on these kids.

Bball
01-12-2009, 12:57 AM
But we aren't just sneaking in wins on the leagues best we are playing with them for more than 80-90 percent of the game. It's just ironic that we play the losing teams the same way.

It's not ironic at all. We play no defense so good teams and bad teams have an equal opportunity to score against us. We play a Chinese Fire Drill scramble offense which does keep the other team off balance, although it doesn't particularly push the opposing defense because they are not continually fighting thru screens and the like.

We're careless with the basketball and also don't play smart in many situations taking quick shots which typically lead to points going the other way.

But no, we're not particularly close to getting over the hump. These NBA Live scorefests are not indicative of us just needing to get over the hump. In fact they're starting to paint an entirely different picture and showing us some rather severe flaws. We can't stop anyone and that means we can't stop them from hitting the winning basket or the game-changing basket. It's only a matter of time that the 'fun' of scoring a bazillion points wears off and the chemistry starts taking a hit.

As for the Chinese Fire Drill Helter Skelter Offense... If the NBA would magically grant the Pacers entrance into the playoffs automatically we'd quickly see that we'd be extremely lucky to win more than 1 game... or 2 at best. Facing a playoff team means multiple games and they can gameplan to stop our gimmick offense. And then it's all over. There's no defense to rely on. So it's MAYBE win the first game.... and MAYBE pull out another at the buzzer (if we have the ball) and then lose 4 rather handily.

And that scenario would play out EVERY time, EVERY year... because gimmick basketball with no defense is simply a losing proposition.... EVERY time.

Pacerized
01-12-2009, 01:02 AM
He's not a good enough rebounder to justify being a complete and utter liability offensively and a mediocre defender. Especially, when there is no chance he'll ever get better. We've seen his ceiling. And it isn't very high.



I wouldn't debate Jeff's lack of offense, but Jeff brings more then just rebounding. He's by far our best big man defender. I'd like to see Jeff play no less then 25 min.

JayRedd
01-12-2009, 01:17 AM
Please tell me all of this is hyperbole.

None of it actually.

The evolution of Danny Granger is the most important thing on our team. Tonight showed he's a freak. He's a monster. He can get his whenever he wants. Having him prove that to me -- and more importantly himself -- is the story in Pacerland this season. 8th seed would also be cool, but that's what matters most to me right now.

RE: Jeff -----> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html

And the LG comment isn't even debatable.

CableKC
01-12-2009, 01:34 AM
Just got back from the game......

The only comment that I can make was the last play that got Crawford that game winning shot. I don't know if it was drawn up or not.....but with the time left to draw it up.....it seemed like a Nellie type play........quick and numorous ball movement that forced the Pacers to continue to scramble that ultimately got the ball to Crawford....a semi-clutch 3pt shooter. I could probably expand on this about running plays at the end of the game.....but I don't want to open up a can of worms. I'll just leave it at being a good play that worked that was run by a Nellie-run team.

The last play itself, with no time out left....didn't seem to be too well thought out....but I'm guessing had little choice to do with 5+ seconds left. If any other team wasn't as defensively inept as the Warriors were....they probably would have defended it better....we were lucky that Granger was able to pass it to Diener...who had a wide-open 3pt shot that ( unfortunately ) may have been rushed. Although Diener ( in theory ) is a good 3pt shooter.....I don't get the sense that he's a decent "catch and shoot" 3pt shooter...who had about 1-2 more seconds to get his feet set and shoot. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference....but I'm not disappointed that the play ended like that nor that Diener missed it....I'm just disappointed that we lost to a team that we should be able to beat and MOST NOTABLY in the one game that I get to see live all season long.

One last thing.....Ford had the quietest 15 point game I have ever seen. In the 3rd QTR, I look up at the Scoreboard and see that he had 15 points and I thought to myself......when did he rack up that many points?

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 02:07 AM
RE: Jeff -----> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html



I'm not debating Foster's rebounding. I'm saying he brings nothing else. And that doesn't justify playing him over a younger player who could do a lot more while sacrificing some rebounding.

bnd45
01-12-2009, 02:20 AM
I'm tired of hearing quotes like these from O'Brien after these heartbreaking losses.

“We have to learn how to defend at some point in our lives. We’re not defending well enough to win these close games. We had the opportunities, and we didn’t get it done. We’re not defending anybody.”


How bout we try and fix the problem and hold guys accountable? If the defensive philosophy is going to stay the same, then McRoberts and even Baston need to see the court more. The bigs that play now (FOSTER and MURPHY) are consistently late rotating over. Shading guys to the baseline as dramatically as we do requires quick big men who can get there and help.

I think we should scrap the force your man baseline because our help-side "d" is so poor. Simplify things and just have each guy buckle down on their man and play him straight up. Our defense is left scrambling way too much and we give up tons of wide open shots.

A few specific things that really annoyed me tonight...

-We have to be the first team in the league to get torched by the vaunted Belinelli and Turiaf pick and roll.

-Jarrett Jack's refusal to put a hand up on Crawford. Jack was in the right spot for most of Crawford's makes but he simply wouldn't contest the jumper (Murphy did this a couple times as well) The few times Jack did contest he got to close and "fouled a jump shooter"

-Please stop playing Jack so many minutes at the 2. With Dunleavy back, we now have a little depth at the wing spot. PLAY BRANDON RUSH.

-Graham is one dumb player. Both ends of the court, he's a mess. Great athlete, plays hard, but no b-ball IQ.

-I said it earlier, and I have read it in this thread...less Foster and Murphy...more McRoberts and Hibbert (possibly Baston)

-Dunleavy really let the GSW crowd get in his head. O'Brien did his best to sneak him in the game following media timeouts but everytime the PA announcer said his name, the crowd came to life.

-Last thought of a post filled with random complaints: DANNY GRANGER is the only reason to watch Pacer basketball right now. When we finally get good (hopefully in the next couple of years) this guy has a chance to give LeBron and Kobe some competition for the MVP.

Pacers#1Fan
01-12-2009, 02:41 AM
-Please stop playing Jack so many minutes at the 2. With Dunleavy back, we now have a little depth at the wing spot. PLAY BRANDON RUSH.

-I said it earlier, and I have read it in this thread...less Foster and Murphy...more McRoberts and Hibbert (possibly Baston)

-Dunleavy really let the GSW crowd get in his head. O'Brien did his best to sneak him in the game following media timeouts but everytime the PA announcer said his name, the crowd came to life.


I completely agree!

I will give Jack credit for the nice deflection late in the game but seriously... he isn't even close to being a good choice at the two. Put Rush out there and lets use his defensive skills to our advantage while he comes into his own on offense.

JOB needs to give Hibby more time, seems like around his second or third foul he rarely gets off pine. Given much time, I'm sure he would have either fouled out or came close but he would have altered a lot more shots than Murph or Foster. McBob really is like a younger Foster just lighter on the rebounding and heavier on... well, everything else.

The GSW fans had Dun's number. He came in with his tail between his legs and left it there for the most part. Had some nice plays don't get me wrong but he was CLEARLY demoralized from the word go.

Dr. Awesome
01-12-2009, 06:32 AM
Dunleavy had shot 4-13 with some ugly misses, and Obie designs a play for him? Is that a joke? This coach has no idea what he is doing.

I'm also sick of hearing him complain about the defense. He is the coach, its his rotations and decisions that contribute a lot to why our defense sucks. Now, I'm not going to blame him for our defense in general, but the one guy who can change it shouldn't be complaining about it.

joew8302
01-12-2009, 07:22 AM
Play Brandon Rush? Are you serious? He has been awful. I almost threw up a little when I saw him start the 4th quarter. Most of Brandon's rookie year he has looked miserable. Yes, I get he is a rookie, and there is a learning curve, but he has looked absolutely miserable. Stephen Graham is a MUCH better option, I thought Stephen gave us solid minutes tonight, on both ends of the court. Rush hasn't given us solid minutes on EITHER end of the court in some time.

I am the last person to be a "fire the coach" type guy, but we need to fire Jim Obrien. This defense is inexcuseable. 135, 110, 121, and 119. I believe these are the points allowed the last four games. With guys like Granger, Jack, Foster, Graham and Hibbert we should NOT be this bad. I am not arguing we should be a premier defensive team by any stretch, but with the personell we have there is absolutely no reason whatsoever we should be this bad by this point in the season. O'Brien can talk about how we need to play defense all he wants, but it isn't happening with him. I am sick and tired of hearing him preach the same message with the same results, it is time for him to go.

Also, has anyone been underwhelmed with TJ Ford this season? Watching him in the past I expected a litttle more. Maybe thats my fault, but it seems all he does is put his head down and dribble penetrate. He goes one on one way too much and takes many questionable shots IMO. Don't get me wrong, this guy is 1000% better than Tinsley, but I expected more than what we are getting from him at the begining of the year.

This will also probably get me ripped by the sunshine gang on here, but look at the past two games, we have had Dunleavy and we have lost. He is not the missing link, piece, whatever you want to say. This team is bad. I know the sunshine gang will point to the fact that Dunleavy is just coming off an injury, so we shouldn't expect that much, but I will counter that with the fact we needed Granger to be a hero again to hang in their with a Jacksonless 10-28 Golden State squad. My point is Dunleavy is a nice player, but he is not going to push this team over the hump, we are flat out bad.

Have at it.

bambam
01-12-2009, 07:44 AM
And he doesn't do anything to win them.


Wow. He is the toughest guy we have on the inside on this team. He isnt going to win you or lose you game. He is tough, and will go up against and big man in the NBA. And there are some that cant take how tough he plays, and it bothers their game that night.

I agree, Foster doesnt deserve any bashing. This game was not lost by him. The last game wasnt lost by him. Not his fault JOB gave him ONLY 1 option to pass to on the out of bounds play.

Quis
01-12-2009, 07:53 AM
164 days, 11 hours, 1 minute, 8 seconds until the draft.

Chewy
01-12-2009, 08:20 AM
RE: Jeff -----> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html

Where does he rank in defensive and overall rebound pct?

nerveghost
01-12-2009, 08:22 AM
I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere - why do the GS fans hate Dunleavy so? It can't be just because he didn't live up to expectations - it seems like he had to have said something in the media.

We had high expectations for Croshere after signing a huge contract, but never treated him with such animosity - today he is still respected as a consummate pro.

count55
01-12-2009, 08:44 AM
None of it actually.

The evolution of Danny Granger is the most important thing on our team. Tonight showed he's a freak. He's a monster. He can get his whenever he wants. Having him prove that to me -- and more importantly himself -- is the story in Pacerland this season. 8th seed would also be cool, but that's what matters most to me right now.

RE: Jeff -----> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html

And the LG comment isn't even debatable.

I'm going to stop short of saying Danny's 42 means more to me than a win, but this was still a meaningful performance for Danny. He is evolving before our very eyes. Earlier in the season, he made himself very easy to guard in the 4th, now he's a monster, attacking the basket and getting to the line. The two three-pointers this trip (PHO & GS) were absolutely bloodless.

I keep seeing limitations in Danny's game, and he keeps going past them. I've moved on from the 4th quarter issues to now wanting him to make better decisions on defense.


I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere - why do the GS fans hate Dunleavy so? It can't be just because he didn't live up to expectations - it seems like he had to have said something in the media.

We had high expectations for Croshere after signing a huge contract, but never treated him with such animosity - today he is still respected as a consummate pro.

The GS fans I've heard attribute it to the underperformance, combined with the fact that he tended to be a jerk.

Now, he's both played well, and been a pretty decent guy here, but I could see where he would not react well to struggles on the floor and criticism from the fan base.

I'm sure that the GS fans are just as mystified as to why we are so hard on Jackson. It's all about events and circumstances.

Jonathan
01-12-2009, 09:28 AM
Jarret Jack made a real nice hustle play to keep us in the game. Danny beefs with foreign players Nocini & Bellini. I wish Travis would have hit the three.

CableKC
01-12-2009, 09:35 AM
-Dunleavy really let the GSW crowd get in his head. O'Brien did his best to sneak him in the game following media timeouts but everytime the PA announcer said his name, the crowd came to life.
With the amount of "hate" that the Warriors fans have for Dunleavy, there is no way that you could have "sneaked" him into the game. The Warriors fans had booed him everytime he got called into the game, everytime he touched the ball and cheered everytime he missed a shot.

If the same situation happened last season when Dunleavy wasn't injured and was our consistent 2nd scoring option , I agree with JO'Bs call to run that play for Dunleavy to get that shot. All things being equal, he had a decent top of the key look to hit that shot. If he did so, we would have seriously deflated the cheering fans and changed the momentum of the game.

But given the liklihood that he probably doesn't have as much lift in his knees as he would like ( this being his 3rd game back ), the fact that his shot was off all night and it appears that the crowd clearly got into his head.....I agree that it was probably a bad idea for him to take that shot.

Overall, it was a good play that should have worked if Dunleavy was healthy....but it was a gamble that simply didn't pay off. In that situation, after Danny, I probably would have preferred to have Jack take that same shot since MurphLeavy had an off shooting night.

Unfortunately, it was a gamble that didn't pay off......

cinotimz
01-12-2009, 09:37 AM
I keep seeing limitations in Danny's game, and he keeps going past them. I've moved on from the 4th quarter issues to now wanting him to make better decisions on defense.


Its a shame Danny hasnt progressed on the defensive end the way he has on the offensive end. When he first came into the league, he showed more defensive potential than offensive.

However, with defense apparently not being emphasized by either the current coaching staff or his teammates, his progress defensively has been marginal at best.

count55
01-12-2009, 09:48 AM
With the amount of "hate" that the Warriors fans have for Dunleavy, there is no way that you could have "sneaked" him into the game. The Warriors fans had booed him everytime he got called into the game, everytime he touched the ball and cheered everytime he missed a shot.

If the same situation happened last season when Dunleavy wasn't injured and was our consistent 2nd scoring option , I agree with JO'Bs call to run that play for Dunleavy to get that shot. All things being equal, he had a decent top of the key look to hit that shot. If he did so, we would have seriously deflated the cheering fans and changed the momentum of the game.

But given the liklihood that he probably doesn't have as much lift in his knees as he would like ( this being his 3rd game back ), the fact that his shot was off all night and it appears that the crowd clearly got into his head.....I agree that it was probably a bad idea for him to take that shot.

Overall, it was a good play that should have worked if Dunleavy was healthy....but it was a gamble that simply didn't pay off. In that situation, after Danny, I probably would have preferred to have Jack take that same shot since MurphLeavy had an off shooting night.

Unfortunately, it was a gamble that didn't pay off......

As I said earlier, I thought it was a good look that he just shot horribly. I just watched the replay, and he rushed it some. He telegraphs his misses.

Truth be told, Danny had been shooting pretty poorly in the 4th prior to his three at 0:21. Until he proves otherwise, Junior has to be considered a viable option in that spot, regardless of what kind of shooting game he's having.

Bball
01-12-2009, 09:48 AM
Are you guys sure that Dunleavy shot was drawn up that way? I didn't hear the post game but the play itself just appeared to be Dunleavy deciding he'd take the shot right there.

Unclebuck
01-12-2009, 09:49 AM
I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere - why do the GS fans hate Dunleavy so? It can't be just because he didn't live up to expectations - it seems like he had to have said something in the media.

We had high expectations for Croshere after signing a huge contract, but never treated him with such animosity - today he is still respected as a consummate pro.

I read through the whole thread and finally found something I want to comment on. I don't understand it at all either. He never embarrassed the franchise, always played as well as he could - things just didn't work out for all involved - so he was traded - time the fans GET OVER IT - makes you look petty and just a bunch of bitter people.

I would hope fans of the pacers have moved on from Artest, JO, Jackson and even Tinsley (each of which damaged the franchise 10x worse than Dun ever damaged the Warriors) a couple of years and it just isn't worth it.

Oh, I also want to repeat a comment I made in the game thread - which after I saw the play I felt the need to turn my laptop on and make a comment in the game thread- which I rarely if ever do. But that hustle play by Jack was one of the very best hustle plays I have ever seen and that is the reason I love Jack. Wow that was a huge play and it shouldn't get lost in the discussion because the pacers lost.

Really I thought the pacers lost the game in the first half - they dominated the first quarter, but let the Warriors hang around and then the Warriors played a very good second half

Unclebuck
01-12-2009, 09:55 AM
Are you guys sure that Dunleavy shot was drawn up that way? I didn't hear the post game but the play itself just appeared to be Dunleavy deciding he'd take the shot right there.

I saw a direct quote from O'Brien that yes the play was for Mike - he said they had gone three straight times to Danny (he scored on 1 of the 3) and they went to Mike on that play - of course Mike could have decided not to take that shot. Overll he missed it, but I have no problem with him taking that - he just missed it - that happens

Hicks
01-12-2009, 09:55 AM
Danny Granger has become a beast, and I love it. I also thought he did the right thing by getting in Marco's face (without swinging at him) when he got elbowed like that. You have to make it clear you won't take **** from people, and I think that goes towards accomplishing that.

Is this what having a Paul Pierce type of player feels like?

Bball
01-12-2009, 10:04 AM
I saw a direct quote from O'Brien that yes the play was for Mike - he said they had gone three straight times to Danny (he scored on 1 of the 3) and they went to Mike on that play - of course Mike could have decided not to take that shot. Overll he missed it, but I have no problem with him taking that - he just missed it - that happens

No, I didn't have a problem with it either. Maybe it was a little rushed but that'll happen. I just didn't see any real 'design' to the play at the time.

DocHolliday
01-12-2009, 10:27 AM
It's funny... as bad as this defense can be, it only needs to be improved slightly for many of these games to fall our way. They're in damn near every game right down to the end.

...until then, moral victories will have to suffice. :dance:


Defense.... defense... defense....

We run an unstructured helter skelter offense and have players that can score, but we have no defense and apparently no desire to implement any defense or even pretend to address it.

If you don't play defense, you lose. I don't care how good the offense is, if you don't play defense- you lose. On top of that, contrary probably to the stats, I don't think we play good offense either. The lack of structure likely is part of the problem on the other end of the court. Yes, we score a lot of points (a lot of good that does us), but it's totally unstructured.

If Jim OBrien is a defensive minded coach, as some have argued, you won't prove it by these Pacers. And whoever mentioned the corner 3's that we leave open with regularity might want to look at tapes of last year because you'll see that same flaw... over and over again. You'd think that might be corrected in the span of a year's time.

So IMHO this offense is KILLING the team. That's right... the problem isn't just a need to 'fix' the defense, it's to rein in the offense and put some structure into the game.

At best we trade baskets with the opposition. But even with that, if we can't play defense then it doesn't matter how much time is on the clock, they'll score the winning basket.

Defense Defense Defense...

If this is Jim OBrien's grand plan for restoring Pacer basketball, then please ask him to start packing and I will give him a ride to the airport.

and I agree with an earlier response:
:king:

It seems the only on-court positive that has been accomplished this year is that the team is watchable. It's exciting basketball, but every time I turn on the game it's close but plain to see that the Pacers have no way to shut down a team and pull away. Victories will often be based on a lucky shot falling for them at the end--no way to try to make a serious playoff push.

OakMoses
01-12-2009, 10:34 AM
I find it amusing that this thread is so much more positive than the Lakers post-game thread.

To me this was the toughest loss of the season emotionally. We were playing a bad team without 2 of their best players. It was a winnable road game in the midst of an incredibly tough month on the schedule. We significantly outplayed them in the first half and then just played a stinker of a 3rd quarter which lost the game for us. Also, I just hate the Warriors for some reason.

- I loved Danny's offense in this game. He's developed a number of really tough moves and has the confidence to pull them all off. His defense is actually pretty good when he stays on his man. He just cheats into the lane too much.

- Why does Jamal Crawford get superstar calls? He's not a superstar. He just flops a lot on 3 pointers. He was not fouled on either of those shots.

- I haven't watched Magette play a whole lot during his career. Is he always that bad of a player? He can score but his defense is inconsistent at best and he has almost no basketball IQ. I can't believe he has the contract he does.

- We would have won this game if anybody besides Danny had shown up. Mike and Troy were especially pathetic.

- I like both Jarret Jack and Jeff Foster, no matter what you all say. They play their butts off every night at both ends of the floor. They seem to understand the system and try to play within it. They're chippy and tough and physical players who tend to frustrate their opponents. My vision for this team would be for Jack and Foster to be two of the first guys off the bench. If we could put a good starting 5 on the floor (one that doesn't include Stephen Graham) and have Dunleavy, Jack and Foster as our 6-8 guys, we could be a very potent team. Honestly, I think we can do this once we're fully healthy. Ford, Daniels, Granger, Murphy, Hibbert is a decent starting 5.

- I still believe that this is a playoff team.

- When Anthony Randolph came in, it should've been obvious to everyone that our lack of frontcourt athleticism is our #1 problem. He's a super-green, super-inconsistent rookie who's not big enough to play in the post in the NBA, but he was active and athletic inside and he killed us for a while in the 2nd quarter.

- I like Brandon Rush and I think he'll be a fine NBA player, but right now both Jack and Stephen Graham are out-playing him. He deserves to be on the bench.

- My one criticism of O'Brien right now is that McRoberts is not playing more. I think he's earned minutes. He's one of those guys like Amundson for Phoenix or Randolph for GS who brings a lot of energy into the game and tends to make a big impact in a short period of time. I'd love to see him getting some of Troy's minutes. You can generally tell if Troy is going to be worth something within the first 5 minutes of each half. If he's not contributing, pull him.

WInslow22
01-12-2009, 10:35 AM
I read through the whole thread and finally found something I want to comment on. I don't understand it at all either. He never embarrassed the franchise, always played as well as he could - things just didn't work out for all involved - so he was traded - time the fans GET OVER IT - makes you look petty and just a bunch of bitter people.

I would hope fans of the pacers have moved on from Artest, JO, Jackson and even Tinsley (each of which damaged the franchise 10x worse than Dun ever damaged the Warriors) a couple of years and it just isn't worth it.

Oh, I also want to repeat a comment I made in the game thread - which after I saw the play I felt the need to turn my laptop on and make a comment in the game thread- which I rarely if ever do. But that hustle play by Jack was one of the very best hustle plays I have ever seen and that is the reason I love Jack. Wow that was a huge play and it shouldn't get lost in the discussion because the pacers lost.

Really I thought the pacers lost the game in the first half - they dominated the first quarter, but let the Warriors hang around and then the Warriors played a very good second half

Agree wholeheartedly!!

Fans shouldn't let this season frustrate them so much. This team is learning, growing, developing, and I think evolving into something special. We will get over the hump. Not this season, but next. Fellas, we have a great group of guys out there!! Just take a few deep breaths....... Now if we have the same record next season same time, frustration is warranted......

Unclebuck
01-12-2009, 10:35 AM
I agree with Bball - you can't play this style of offense and play great defense - never seen a team do it before.

count55
01-12-2009, 10:57 AM
I find it amusing that this thread is so much more positive than the Lakers post-game thread.

To me this was the toughest loss of the season emotionally. We were playing a bad team without 2 of their best players. It was a winnable road game in the midst of an incredibly tough month on the schedule. We significantly outplayed them in the first half and then just played a stinker of a 3rd quarter which lost the game for us. Also, I just hate the Warriors for some reason.

- I loved Danny's offense in this game. He's developed a number of really tough moves and has the confidence to pull them all off. His defense is actually pretty good when he stays on his man. He just cheats into the lane too much.

- Why does Jamal Crawford get superstar calls? He's not a superstar. He just flops a lot on 3 pointers. He was not fouled on either of those shots.

- I haven't watched Magette play a whole lot during his career. Is he always that bad of a player? He can score but his defense is inconsistent at best and he has almost no basketball IQ. I can't believe he has the contract he does.

- We would have won this game if anybody besides Danny had shown up. Mike and Troy were especially pathetic.

- I like both Jarret Jack and Jeff Foster, no matter what you all say. They play their butts off every night at both ends of the floor. They seem to understand the system and try to play within it. They're chippy and tough and physical players who tend to frustrate their opponents. My vision for this team would be for Jack and Foster to be two of the first guys off the bench. If we could put a good starting 5 on the floor (one that doesn't include Stephen Graham) and have Dunleavy, Jack and Foster as our 6-8 guys, we could be a very potent team. Honestly, I think we can do this once we're fully healthy. Ford, Daniels, Granger, Murphy, Hibbert is a decent starting 5.

- I still believe that this is a playoff team.

- When Anthony Randolph came in, it should've been obvious to everyone that our lack of frontcourt athleticism is our #1 problem. He's a super-green, super-inconsistent rookie who's not big enough to play in the post in the NBA, but he was active and athletic inside and he killed us for a while in the 2nd quarter.

- I like Brandon Rush and I think he'll be a fine NBA player, but right now both Jack and Stephen Graham are out-playing him. He deserves to be on the bench.

- My one criticism of O'Brien right now is that McRoberts is not playing more. I think he's earned minutes. He's one of those guys like Amundson for Phoenix or Randolph for GS who brings a lot of energy into the game and tends to make a big impact in a short period of time. I'd love to see him getting some of Troy's minutes. You can generally tell if Troy is going to be worth something within the first 5 minutes of each half. If he's not contributing, pull him.

Agreeing with you is getting to be a habit. (BTW...I'd be worried about that if I were you, because my agreement will probably undermine your credibility.)

I'm not in sync point for point, but I'm in the neighborhood on all of them.

I agree that McBob should be playing some. That is a fair criticism of O'Brien.

I would also say that, while I do not want to fire O'Brien, I think he's a good coach, and I do think the lack of defense drives him nuts, at this point, the bottom line is the team is bad on defense, and he's failing to make it any better.

I think that we have defensive talent that ranges from perhaps slightly above average to outright horrible. However, I think the scrambling is making it worse. I believe that we should abandon the weakside sagging and the rotations, and go back to a more straight up design. We may still get beaten on a relatively regular basis, but it may be less than is happening now. All it really would take for this team to be above .500 (right now) is just a few more stops here and there.

I also have a strong suspicion that slowing the game down will hurt our offense more than it helps our defense, but, what do we have to lose? We might as well find out.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 11:16 AM
You are right on. Did you see the graphic they put up tonight during the game? In Oct/Nov. we were allowing 99pts a game. In Dec. it was up to like 105. In the month of Jan. 117. Our D is getting worse!


In the last 4 games, the Pacers are giving up 122 points a game. Not to mention a 1-3 record that is 25%. I don't see any change in the game in Utah tonight.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 11:26 AM
He's not a good enough rebounder to justify being a complete and utter liability offensively and a mediocre defender. Especially, when there is no chance he'll ever get better. We've seen his ceiling. And it isn't very high.


Bird thought it was high enough to give Foster a 2 year extension. Are you saying Bird screwed up giving Foster the extension instead of using Foster's expiring in a trade?

d_c
01-12-2009, 11:29 AM
I'm sure that the GS fans are just as mystified as to why we are so hard on Jackson. It's all about events and circumstances.

FWIW, everyone understands why Pacer fans wouldn't like Jackson and I certainly think it's justified. But just remember that the hate with Dunleavy is a two way street. He hates GS fans every bit as much as we hate him.

For as much as you hate Jackson, I seriously doubt he hates you back the same.

d_c
01-12-2009, 11:34 AM
- I haven't watched Magette play a whole lot during his career. Is he always that bad of a player? He can score but his defense is inconsistent at best and he has almost no basketball IQ. I can't believe he has the contract he does.
.
.
.
- My one criticism of O'Brien right now is that McRoberts is not playing more. I think he's earned minutes. He's one of those guys like Amundson for Phoenix or Randolph for GS who brings a lot of energy into the game and tends to make a big impact in a short period of time. I'd love to see him getting some of Troy's minutes. You can generally tell if Troy is going to be worth something within the first 5 minutes of each half. If he's not contributing, pull him.

Maggette would be excellent as a 6th man making somewhere between $5-7M a year, but siging him to $10M a year and putting him in a Nellie system was just a huge mistake and most everyone knew it was a mistake before the ink dried.

As far as McRoberts, he's just getting the rookie treatment that most NBA head coaches gives. Consider that after Anthony Randolph's tremendous stint 9 minute stint, Nellie never brought him back into the game.....at all.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 11:35 AM
It's not ironic at all. We play no defense so good teams and bad teams have an equal opportunity to score against us. We play a Chinese Fire Drill scramble offense which does keep the other team off balance, although it doesn't particularly push the opposing defense because they are not continually fighting thru screens and the like.

We're careless with the basketball and also don't play smart in many situations taking quick shots which typically lead to points going the other way.

But no, we're not particularly close to getting over the hump. These NBA Live scorefests are not indicative of us just needing to get over the hump. In fact they're starting to paint an entirely different picture and showing us some rather severe flaws. We can't stop anyone and that means we can't stop them from hitting the winning basket or the game-changing basket. It's only a matter of time that the 'fun' of scoring a bazillion points wears off and the chemistry starts taking a hit.

As for the Chinese Fire Drill Helter Skelter Offense... If the NBA would magically grant the Pacers entrance into the playoffs automatically we'd quickly see that we'd be extremely lucky to win more than 1 game... or 2 at best. Facing a playoff team means multiple games and they can gameplan to stop our gimmick offense. And then it's all over. There's no defense to rely on. So it's MAYBE win the first game.... and MAYBE pull out another at the buzzer (if we have the ball) and then lose 4 rather handily.

And that scenario would play out EVERY time, EVERY year... because gimmick basketball with no defense is simply a losing proposition.... EVERY time.


Quit making posts that make sense!

It's obvious Bird doesn't agree. In the 4 games so far of this 5 game Western trip, the Pacers have given up 122 points. How many games does Bird think the Pacers can win giving up 122 points? Maybe JO'B would like to answer that question as well.

Unclebuck
01-12-2009, 11:36 AM
He's not a good enough rebounder to justify being a complete and utter liability offensively and a mediocre defender. Especially, when there is no chance he'll ever get better. We've seen his ceiling. And it isn't very high.

His passing is excellent and his offense has greatly improved.

But what I really want to disagree with is your assertion that he is a mediocre defender - not sure what you are watching, but I think Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA against most of the quicker agile big guys. he is also a pretty good help defenders, he picks up a lot of charges, but he isn't a shot blocker. Jeff's our best big guy defender in the NBA, by far. he has very quick hands and feet.

d_c
01-12-2009, 11:42 AM
I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere - why do the GS fans hate Dunleavy so? It can't be just because he didn't live up to expectations - it seems like he had to have said something in the media.

We had high expectations for Croshere after signing a huge contract, but never treated him with such animosity - today he is still respected as a consummate pro.

The best explanation I can give to summarize his 4.5 year stint with the Warriors w/o writing a novel.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=832880&postcount=33

Most important thing I want to add is that this relationship is a two way street between fans and Dunleavy. In his postgame quotes after last year's game in Oakland, he said (not taken out of context) that he has no respect for Warrior fans.


“I wouldn’t want it any other way,” said Dunleavy, who spent his first 4 1/2 NBA seasons with the Warriors. “I couldn’t care less. It’s hard to pay attention and care about something somebody says when you have no respect for them. They can do whatever they want.”
(http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=832880&postcount=33)

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 11:43 AM
Bird thought it was high enough to give Foster a 2 year extension. Are you saying Bird screwed up giving Foster the extension instead of using Foster's expiring in a trade?

It'd take a blind homer to say otherwise.

pacergod2
01-12-2009, 11:45 AM
Jarret Jack made a real nice hustle play to keep us in the game. Danny beefs with foreign players Nocini & Bellini. I wish Travis would have hit the three.

Did anybody come "support" Granger when he got in Marco's face? Or was Murphy hiding underneath the scorer's table?

Foster could be extended without counting against our MLE. That's why he got an extension. There isn't a more deserving guy. I still think we could have gotten him for a little bit cheaper and he would have been happier than a pig in ____. Especially at two years.

I feel bad for O'Brien because he just doesn't have enough defenders to even have a solid five defensively, especially that can score. Foster absolutely cannot be your only good defensive player in the post. He is not good enough defensively to make that work. He needs to be a complementary guy off the bench or a guy that is next to a VERY GOOD defensive PF/C. He would be nice next to Duncan or Garnett, but we have him next to the absolute worst defensive PF in the league. Explain to me how that can work. I wish we could trade Murphy for a bag of rocks. I care more about defense.

Mellifluous mentioned that Granger helps too much. He ABSOLUTELY does. Great point. It's tough to KNOW that two of the other four guys on the floor will let their guy blow by them and not try to do something, especially as our team's best player. It causes our team to rotate the defense way earlier in the shot clock than what OB wants. It causes us to try to rotate for 15 seconds instead of say 9, which allows the other team to make an extra 2-3 passes to score. This tires our team out that much more as well. That's why I am so disappointed that guys like Rush, Hibbert, and McRoberts aren't getting more minutes, because they are better defensively and can last out there longer. Murphy's minutes absolutely MUST be decreased for our team to have a prayer at winning games.

count55
01-12-2009, 11:46 AM
FWIW, everyone understands why Pacer fans wouldn't like Jackson and I certainly think it's justified. But just remember that the hate with Dunleavy is a two way street. He hates GS fans every bit as much as we hate him.

For as much as you hate Jackson, I seriously doubt he hates you back the same.

Please don't think I was challenging your opinion of Junior. You guys didn't like him, we do (or at least, I do, and I never liked him at Duke or GS), so, as far as I'm concerned, it worked out nicely for both parties, and that's that.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 11:47 AM
[QUOTE=count55;833627]





The GS fans I've heard attribute it to the underperformance, combined with the fact that he tended to be a jerk.

Now, he's both played well, and been a pretty decent guy here, but I could see where he would not react well to struggles on the floor and criticism from the fan base./QUOTE]


My guess they may boo now on top of the forementioned reasons b/c Dunleavy had a season last year they always expected from him in GS. He's performing better now that he's not playing for their team. Maybe a little jealousy is involved. JMOAA

d_c
01-12-2009, 11:53 AM
Please don't think I was challenging your opinion of Junior. You guys didn't like him, we do (or at least, I do, and I never liked him at Duke or GS), so, as far as I'm concerned, it worked out nicely for both parties, and that's that.

Right. It's never been my intention to justify how right or wrong it it for GS fans to hate on Dunleavy.

The only points I've ever tried to make in this whole "why do GS fans hate Dunleavy so much?" saga from fans on this board (that I feel people have overlooked):

1. Had the Dunleavy situation been repeated in places like LA, Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Boston or NY, he would have gotten even worse treatment from fans in those cities than he did in GS.

2. Dunleavy hates our guts every bit as much. It's a mutal feeling. A two way street.

count55
01-12-2009, 11:54 AM
Did anybody come "support" Granger when he got in Marco's face? Or was Murphy hiding underneath the scorer's table?



IMO, Granger grossly overreacted to the Bellinelli elbow, and Jack (IIRC, or whoever) was right to chase him down to the other end of the floor. It's possible that there could've been some activity between Danny and Marco earlier that I did not see, but I didn't think Danny's reaction was necessary just for that play...(particularly given his importance to the team...an ejection would've been bad.)

As to Murph, I've seen him come to the aid of teammates before, and I've seen him square off in his own defense. I don't get the hiding under the scorer's table comment. Plus, there's a fine line between having your teammates' back and be a dumbass engaging in macho bull****. It's a lesson I would think we should have learned pretty well in November 2004.

d_c
01-12-2009, 11:54 AM
[quote=count55;833627]





The GS fans I've heard attribute it to the underperformance, combined with the fact that he tended to be a jerk.

Now, he's both played well, and been a pretty decent guy here, but I could see where he would not react well to struggles on the floor and criticism from the fan base./QUOTE]


My guess they may boo now on top of the forementioned reasons b/c Dunleavy had a season last year they always expected from him in GS. He's performing better now that he's not playing for their team. Maybe a little jealousy is involved. JMOAA

Again, see my prior post. It doesn't have as much to do w/performance as you think.

deekay85
01-12-2009, 12:04 PM
OPPG:

November: 15 GMS - 99,7ppg
December: 15 GMS - 109,7ppg
January: 6 GMS - 117,6

pacergod2
01-12-2009, 12:18 PM
Yeah. Having played a lot of basketball on good and bad teams, it is interesting to see who comes to the aid of a player in that instance. I am not advocating fighting AT ALL. I just wanted to know what player is the first to get there and help resolve the issue and make sure his boy isn't getting into it. Especially Granger. If indeed that it was Jack to be the first one there, I would expect that from him. He is a level headed guy who is tough.

And the Murphy comment comes from my opinion of him being completely soft.

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 12:19 PM
His passing is excellent and his offense has greatly improved.

But what I really want to disagree with is your assertion that he is a mediocre defender - not sure what you are watching, but I think Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA against most of the quicker agile big guys. he is also a pretty good help defenders, he picks up a lot of charges, but he isn't a shot blocker. Jeff's our best big guy defender in the NBA, by far. he has very quick hands and feet.

Let's see what some of the quicker, agile big guys in the league did against him. Since Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA.

11/14: Thaddeous Young goes off for 25 at the 4 position.
11/15: Andres Nocioni gets 20 off the bench.
11/21: The 4/5 combo of Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 47
11/22: Shawn Marion, Micheal Beasley, and Udonis Haslem get 18, 17, and 16 respectively.
11/25: Dirk Nowitzki is held to 24
11/29: This time Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 56.
12/02: Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum are limited to 37. Foster didn't play. Coincidence?
12/03: Kevin Garnett gets 26 and Kendrick Perkins chips in 16.
12/05: Anderson Verajao goes off for 17. Yikes.
12/07: Kevin Garnett and Kendrick Perkins only combine for 28 this time. McRoberts plays 10 minutes. Coincidence?
12/10: Chris Bosh is limited to 21. We'll call this a win for Jeff.
12/13: Andrew Bogut gets 20 and Charlie Villanueva gets 26 off the bench.
12/17: Andris Biedrins gets 16.
12/19: Marcus Camby gets 20 and Zach Randolph adds 34.
12/26: Darko Milicic and Marc Gasol each get 14 while Hakim Warrick gets 21 off the bench.
12/28: David West only gets 18 and Tyson Chandler 8. Call it a win.
12/30: Josh Smith gets 24 and Al Horford 12.
01/02: David Lee gets 26.
01/05: Kenyon Martin gets 25 and Nene adds another 18.
01/07: Amare Stoudemire gets 23. A win compared to their last meeting.
01/09: Pau Gasol gets 21 and Andrew Bynum adds 20.
01/11: Andris Biedrins held to 11 but Anthony Randolph adds 8 in very limited minutes.

Out of respect for Jeff I held off mentioning the first Phoenix game when Amare went off like a mad man. I'm pretty sure Jeff still has "SPALDING" imprinted on his forehead.

It seems to me athletic, quick bigs have field days against the Pacers. If that doesn't make our primary interior defender mediocre, I don't know what else to say.

beast23
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
I agree with Bball - you can't play this style of offense and play great defense - never seen a team do it before.

I've posted a similar thought.

By the way, I love BBall's label of "Chinese Fire Drill Helter Skelter Offense". I agree that it is totally unstructured.

Burning the energy that we do in our offense, it is nearly impossible to maintain the same level of energy on the defensive end with any expectation of success. The only team that I've seen play similarly at any time over the past few years is probably Louisville's college team... fast offense and a pressing defense.

Playing offense and defense at this rate requires so much energy that it needs a very deep bench, talented players and very cohesive players to pull it off.

Even ignoring the fact that we have 7 new players, our team and players aren't mature enough to pull it off. But, considering our overall lack of talent and big men to defend the paint, we would probably experience even more difficulties attempting to play a straight up defense.

As for the earlier discussion regarding the last play of the GS game, I am very disappointed in the play if it was JOB's intention of DunJr to take the shot that he ended up taking.

Don't get me wrong. I have as much faith in DunJr's perimeter shooting as I do Danny's. But DunJr's best shot is one taken in rhythm, either taking a dribble or receiving a pass that enables him to step into his shot.

So, if DunJr was tagged to take the shot, stepping back to attempt a 3-pointer, then either the play was executed poorly, or JOB drew up a crappy play.

vnzla81
01-12-2009, 12:35 PM
Let's see what some of the quicker, agile big guys in the league did against him. Since Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA.

11/14: Thaddeous Young goes off for 25 at the 4 position.
11/15: Andres Nocioni gets 20 off the bench.
11/21: The 4/5 combo of Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 47
11/22: Shawn Marion, Micheal Beasley, and Udonis Haslem get 18, 17, and 16 respectively.
11/25: Dirk Nowitzki is held to 24
11/29: This time Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 56.
12/02: Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum are limited to 37. Foster didn't play. Coincidence?
12/03: Kevin Garnett gets 26 and Kendrick Perkins chips in 16.
12/05: Anderson Verajao goes off for 17. Yikes.
12/07: Kevin Garnett and Kendrick Perkins only combine for 28 this time. McRoberts plays 10 minutes. Coincidence?
12/10: Chris Bosh is limited to 21. We'll call this a win for Jeff.
12/13: Andrew Bogut gets 20 and Charlie Villanueva gets 26 off the bench.
12/17: Andris Biedrins gets 16.
12/19: Marcus Camby gets 20 and Zach Randolph adds 34.
12/26: Darko Milicic and Marc Gasol each get 14 while Hakim Warrick gets 21 off the bench.
12/28: David West only gets 18 and Tyson Chandler 8. Call it a win.
12/30: Josh Smith gets 24 and Al Horford 12.
01/02: David Lee gets 26.
01/05: Kenyon Martin gets 25 and Nene adds another 18.
01/07: Amare Stoudemire gets 23. A win compared to their last meeting.
01/09: Pau Gasol gets 21 and Andrew Bynum adds 20.
01/11: Andris Biedrins held to 11 but Anthony Randolph adds 8 in very limited minutes.

Out of respect for Jeff I held off mentioning the first Phoenix game when Amare went off like a mad man. I'm pretty sure Jeff still has "SPALDING" imprinted on his forehead.

It seems to me athletic, quick bigs have field days against the Pacers. If that doesn't make our primary interior defender mediocre, I don't know what else to say.

yeah I was at that game when Amare when crazy and dunked on Jeff, this also goes to troy murphy(he was there) the pacers need to make some trades, trading foster,rasho or murphy to bring a big that can play D, that is the mayor problem in their defense, they play Troy and Dun together and like we all know they suck at defense. I always like AK 47, he can shoot the 3 and can also guard anybody on the floor from pg to pf. Anybody has a better player and defender than him?

Dr. Goldfoot
01-12-2009, 12:40 PM
Let's see what some of the quicker, agile big guys in the league did against him. Since Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA.

11/14: Thaddeous Young goes off for 25 at the 4 position.
11/15: Andres Nocioni gets 20 off the bench.
11/21: The 4/5 combo of Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 47
11/22: Shawn Marion, Micheal Beasley, and Udonis Haslem get 18, 17, and 16 respectively.
11/25: Dirk Nowitzki is held to 24
11/29: This time Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 56.
12/02: Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum are limited to 37. Foster didn't play. Coincidence?
12/03: Kevin Garnett gets 26 and Kendrick Perkins chips in 16.
12/05: Anderson Verajao goes off for 17. Yikes.
12/07: Kevin Garnett and Kendrick Perkins only combine for 28 this time. McRoberts plays 10 minutes. Coincidence?
12/10: Chris Bosh is limited to 21. We'll call this a win for Jeff.
12/13: Andrew Bogut gets 20 and Charlie Villanueva gets 26 off the bench.
12/17: Andris Biedrins gets 16.
12/19: Marcus Camby gets 20 and Zach Randolph adds 34.
12/26: Darko Milicic and Marc Gasol each get 14 while Hakim Warrick gets 21 off the bench.
12/28: David West only gets 18 and Tyson Chandler 8. Call it a win.
12/30: Josh Smith gets 24 and Al Horford 12.
01/02: David Lee gets 26.
01/05: Kenyon Martin gets 25 and Nene adds another 18.
01/07: Amare Stoudemire gets 23. A win compared to their last meeting.
01/09: Pau Gasol gets 21 and Andrew Bynum adds 20.
01/11: Andris Biedrins held to 11 but Anthony Randolph adds 8 in very limited minutes.

Out of respect for Jeff I held off mentioning the first Phoenix game when Amare went off like a mad man. I'm pretty sure Jeff still has "SPALDING" imprinted on his forehead.

It seems to me athletic, quick bigs have field days against the Pacers. If that doesn't make our primary interior defender mediocre, I don't know what else to say.

Some of those guys weren't even Foster's assignments. You forget that Jeff doesn't play all 48 minutes. For example the first game you mentioned......Young scored 8 points while Jeff was in the game. Jeff countered with 10 pts & 11 boards.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2009, 12:41 PM
His passing is excellent and his offense has greatly improved.

But what I really want to disagree with is your assertion that he is a mediocre defender - not sure what you are watching, but I think Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA against most of the quicker agile big guys. he is also a pretty good help defenders, he picks up a lot of charges, but he isn't a shot blocker. Jeff's our best big guy defender in the NBA, by far. he has very quick hands and feet.


UB I wouldn't disagree with what you say about Foster being the "best big man defender the Pacers have", but then that really does say much either. The Pacers' big men are terrible defenders, and that's being polite.

I have said all along this team needs an inside presence that can play the paint both defensively as well as offensively. Foster's forte is rebounding and playing decent "D". Loyalty is a fine thing, Foster is a nice guy and has done a lot in his tenure with the Pacers, but giving Foster an extension was a mistake unless TPTB are willing to trade him.

I'm not happy the Pacers lost last night against a team I felt they should have beaten. I'm not outraged by it, just sad/unhappy. I'm beginning to feel with this JO'B run n gun with little DEFENSE what other outcome can there be. If one doesn't watch the game until the last 4 minutes, the results will almost always be the same... down to the wire in a LOSS. The Pacers win every 3rd or 4th game, which is just enough to spark a little hope things will change, but it just doesn't. Nor will it until the attitude of TPTB about the run n gun helterskelter with little "D" system changes. It's Bird's failure if things don't change... a fish smells from the head down." AND the smell is getting pretty rancid.

OakMoses
01-12-2009, 12:45 PM
One point in support of Foster. This is the 82games.com floor time stats/48 minutes chart. You'll notice that other teams only score 99.6 points/48 with him on the floor. The only player on the team better is Graham. You'll also notice that Foster's number is 5 points better than Murphy, Nesterovic, and Hibbert. Foster is not a bad defender. If we had two bigs who could defend as well as Jeff, we'd be a .500 team right now.

Individual Player Floor Time statistics

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 width=520 bgColor=#cccccc border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#33cc33><TD><CENTER>Player</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Min</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>+/-</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Off</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Def</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Net48</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>W</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>L</CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>Win%</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Granger</TD><TD align=right>67% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>+21 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>106.0 </TD><TD align=right>105.1 </TD><TD align=right>+0.9 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>14 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>14 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>50.0</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Foster</TD><TD align=right>49% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>+11 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>100.3 </TD><TD align=right>99.6 </TD><TD align=right>+0.7 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>16 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>15 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>51.6</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Diener</TD><TD align=right>11% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>+6 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>104.1 </TD><TD align=right>102.4 </TD><TD align=right>+1.6 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>8 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>7 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>53.3</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Graham</TD><TD align=right>11% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>+3 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>98.9 </TD><TD align=right>98.1 </TD><TD align=right>+0.8 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>6 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>7 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>46.2</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Baston</TD><TD align=right>1% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>+2 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>106.1 </TD><TD align=right>102.1 </TD><TD align=right>+4.0 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>2 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>1 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>66.7</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Daniels</TD><TD align=right>63% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-22 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>102.0 </TD><TD align=right>103.1 </TD><TD align=right>-1.0 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>11 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>18 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>37.9</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>McRoberts</TD><TD align=right>8% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-22 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>92.3 </TD><TD align=right>99.8 </TD><TD align=right>-7.5 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>5 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>8 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>38.5</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Ford</TD><TD align=right>58% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-26 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>100.6 </TD><TD align=right>101.9 </TD><TD align=right>-1.3 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>10 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>18 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>35.7</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Nesterovic</TD><TD align=right>39% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-44 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>100.9 </TD><TD align=right>104.2 </TD><TD align=right>-3.4 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>9 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>16 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>36.0</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Murphy</TD><TD align=right>57% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-45 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>102.5 </TD><TD align=right>104.8 </TD><TD align=right>-2.3 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>11 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>17 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>39.3</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Jack</TD><TD align=right>58% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-49 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>101.0 </TD><TD align=right>103.5 </TD><TD align=right>-2.5 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>12 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>19 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>38.7</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#f0f0df><TD>Hibbert</TD><TD align=right>22% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-52 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>97.7 </TD><TD align=right>104.5 </TD><TD align=right>-6.8 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>9 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>17 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>34.6</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Rush</TD><TD align=right>48% <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>-108 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>98.6 </TD><TD align=right>105.2 </TD><TD align=right>-6.6 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>10 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD align=right>20 <CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD><CENTER>33.3</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

pacergod2
01-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Again, I would like to reiterate that I do NOT blame Foster for our post defense. It isn't his fault. If you notice in BRush's post, he does a good job of demonstrating the trend of how badly we get scored on in the post. Yes he is biased against Foster obviously, which is ok. In every single game listed, though, notice it is the guy that plays PF that is having the bigger game. Nocioni, Warrick, Villanueva, Z. Randolph, West, Smith, KMart. Foster's man might still score at a decent clip, but the reason behind it is that we have a HOLE at PF on the defensive end. How many times have I seen Jeff come off his man to cover someone else's guy and his man ends up with the bucket? It is completely a function of the terrible defense we get from Murphy's 36MPG.

Unclebuck
01-12-2009, 01:23 PM
Let's see what some of the quicker, agile big guys in the league did against him. Since Foster is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA.

11/14: Thaddeous Young goes off for 25 at the 4 position.
11/15: Andres Nocioni gets 20 off the bench.
11/21: The 4/5 combo of Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 47
11/22: Shawn Marion, Micheal Beasley, and Udonis Haslem get 18, 17, and 16 respectively.
11/25: Dirk Nowitzki is held to 24
11/29: This time Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard combine for 56.
12/02: Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum are limited to 37. Foster didn't play. Coincidence?
12/03: Kevin Garnett gets 26 and Kendrick Perkins chips in 16.
12/05: Anderson Verajao goes off for 17. Yikes.
12/07: Kevin Garnett and Kendrick Perkins only combine for 28 this time. McRoberts plays 10 minutes. Coincidence?
12/10: Chris Bosh is limited to 21. We'll call this a win for Jeff.
12/13: Andrew Bogut gets 20 and Charlie Villanueva gets 26 off the bench.
12/17: Andris Biedrins gets 16.
12/19: Marcus Camby gets 20 and Zach Randolph adds 34.
12/26: Darko Milicic and Marc Gasol each get 14 while Hakim Warrick gets 21 off the bench.
12/28: David West only gets 18 and Tyson Chandler 8. Call it a win.
12/30: Josh Smith gets 24 and Al Horford 12.
01/02: David Lee gets 26.
01/05: Kenyon Martin gets 25 and Nene adds another 18.
01/07: Amare Stoudemire gets 23. A win compared to their last meeting.
01/09: Pau Gasol gets 21 and Andrew Bynum adds 20.
01/11: Andris Biedrins held to 11 but Anthony Randolph adds 8 in very limited minutes.

Out of respect for Jeff I held off mentioning the first Phoenix game when Amare went off like a mad man. I'm pretty sure Jeff still has "SPALDING" imprinted on his forehead.

It seems to me athletic, quick bigs have field days against the Pacers. If that doesn't make our primary interior defender mediocre, I don't know what else to say.

Do you have any idea if Jeff guarded any of these guys - or how many points each scored while Jeff was defending them.

I'll stand by my statement that Jeff is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA. (the other big defenders we have are beyond horrible especially in one-on-one defense) Rasho is smart, Troy has a decent understanding of the team concepts. Josh doesn't play enough to really count.

Strangely Jeff has never been good at defending Kmart - in fact he was prety much the only guy I thought JO was better defending - not sure why

jhondog28
01-12-2009, 01:32 PM
Some of those guys weren't even Foster's assignments. You forget that Jeff doesn't play all 48 minutes. For example the first game you mentioned......Young scored 8 points while Jeff was in the game. Jeff countered with 10 pts & 11 boards.

I cannot believe I am going to say this, but a more accurate assesment of this would be Jeff's +/- during these games. I hate the plus minus stat though

Peck
01-12-2009, 01:33 PM
None of it actually.

The evolution of Danny Granger is the most important thing on our team. Tonight showed he's a freak. He's a monster. He can get his whenever he wants. Having him prove that to me -- and more importantly himself -- is the story in Pacerland this season. 8th seed would also be cool, but that's what matters most to me right now.

RE: Jeff -----> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html

And the LG comment isn't even debatable.


While I can agree that Danny's growth is important, I can not ever say that the individual growth of one player ever exceeds the team, so I'm sorry but I can't agree with you there. This year a win in Oakland in January would not have been meaningless. In fact you could argue that the loss to G.S. is in fact somewhat devastating because it was one of the games that you actually should have gotten. The next few weeks schedule is not kind at all.

The Foster thing...... I'm sorry and no offense meant to you btw, but this is a typical Foster fan ploy. They always produce these fantasy stats about rpm or % of rebounds or something. Jeff Foster is not even the best rebounder on our team, not even close.

I really am hoping that you are kidding when you say you think of him as one of the best rebounders in history. I don't even consider him one of the best rebounders in Pacers history.

You have me on the LG thing though, so I'll give you that.

CableKC
01-12-2009, 02:00 PM
I saw a direct quote from O'Brien that yes the play was for Mike - he said they had gone three straight times to Danny (he scored on 1 of the 3) and they went to Mike on that play - of course Mike could have decided not to take that shot. Overll he missed it, but I have no problem with him taking that - he just missed it - that happens
You guys would have to tell me.....but the play for Dunleavy looks nearly the same as the one for Granger where he hit that last 3pt shot of his....both were plays that were designed to get the shooter a look at the basket from the top of the key.

count55
01-12-2009, 02:11 PM
You guys would have to tell me.....but the play for Dunleavy looks nearly the same as the one for Granger where he hit that last 3pt shot of his....both were plays that were designed to get the shooter a look at the basket from the top of the key.

Actually, I think they were slightly different, at least in execution. (I can't get the ESPN replay to work right now to confirm it, but...) IIRC, Danny came around the perimeter, got free at the top, caught a pass and pulled up for a three, similar to the Phoenix game. Junior, OTOH, caught the ball more on the wing of the three point line, drove towards the middle (I think on Turiaf), then stepped back to take the shot.

Again, the replay may prove me wrong, but that's what I remember.

It's possible that they were the same play, but they were executed slightly differently, but...

Dr. Goldfoot
01-12-2009, 02:15 PM
I cannot believe I am going to say this, but a more accurate assesment of this would be Jeff's +/- during these games. I hate the plus minus stat though


Foster is one of two players (playing @ least 25% of the games) who is even in the positive for the year. Foster & Granger

Those cut out by the 25% thing....

Diener
Graham
Baston

refer to the mellifluous post for reference

CableKC
01-12-2009, 02:31 PM
The only comments that I can bring up about Foster in yesterday's game was how poorly he shot from the FT line ( 2-6 FTM ) and why he had so many touches at the beginning of the game. I know in the end, it didn't matter how and when he took the shots.....but it seemed like he took and missed 4 of his FGA in the 1st 5 minutes of the game. I was just more surprised more then not that he took that many shots so quickly.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-12-2009, 02:36 PM
There have been a handful of games over the last couple of seasons where Jeff comes out really aggressive. I don't if that's by design or if the opponent dictates it.

pacergod2
01-12-2009, 02:58 PM
It is probably by design so the opposing team doesn't always have the man guarding Jeff being the constant help-side defender. Since it is widely known across the league how deferring and deficient Jeff is on offense. It is to keep the defense honest.

CableKC
01-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I think it's by design and I don't mind cuz sometimes it works where the other frontcourt isn't expecting it and he hit's some quick shots. This time it didn't work...other times it did.

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 03:47 PM
Do you have any idea if Jeff guarded any of these guys - or how many points each scored while Jeff was defending them.

I'll stand by my statement that Jeff is one of the better one-on-one defenders in the NBA. (the other big defenders we have are beyond horrible especially in one-on-one defense) Rasho is smart, Troy has a decent understanding of the team concepts. Josh doesn't play enough to really count.

Strangely Jeff has never been good at defending Kmart - in fact he was prety much the only guy I thought JO was better defending - not sure why


I don't have any issue with Jeff. He plays to the best of his ability. I just took issue with him being called one of the better one-on-one defenders in the league. And I realize those stats don't say that Foster accounted for all those huge days by opposing bigs. I'm just saying that when Foster plays more minutes than any other big on the roster, save Murphy who is utterly deplorable defensively, it makes sense he's going to be responsible for quite a few.

My main reason for wanting to play Hibbert in place of Rasho and McRoberts in front of Foster is potential. We've seen how high Rasho and Foster can take us. The younger guys will make more mistakes. But they'll make more good happen as well. I would be willing to sacrifice wins to play the two young bigs but we're losing so much as is I just don't think it'd happen. To be honest I'd rather have McRoberts play a lot of Troy's minutes than Foster but I figured that would be quick to be shot down among the majority of the members who seem to focus on Murphy's stats and come to think he's helping the team. He's killing us. I "picked on" Foster. And rightfully so, after last night. Granted most of his mistakes were early, but his start to the game against the Warriors was high comedy. The Pacers aren't making noise this year. It'd take a miracle to get to the playoffs and they aren't winning more than a game if they get there. I'd rather take my losses while playing guys who have a chance to improve.

NuffSaid
01-12-2009, 05:06 PM
I think the some of our players still can't stop dribble penetration (Dunleavey, Murphy), so we end up rotating to cover the drives, leading to the open 3s.

If we had Daniels, we'd be much better tonight. At least we'd have someone to guard Crawford.
That's it right there, folks! We get Dunleavy back and what happens? Quis suddenly gets injured...???...sorry, folks, but I'm not buying it. I'm convinced this was purely a roster move. Pure and simple.

Quis has been playing great all season. I'm not saying he would have been that much better out there defensively, but he and Granger are the Pacers' best defenders and to not have him out there against a high flying offense like the Warriors hurts this team's already slim chances of pulling off wins in close games.

Just think - the Pacers were 2 FTs away from a tie, and And1 away from another win. Quis' lane penetration could have been the difference just as a coulpe of made FTs or a basket or two would have.

NuffSaid
01-12-2009, 05:14 PM
With the amount of "hate" that the Warriors fans have for Dunleavy, there is no way that you could have "sneaked" him into the game. The Warriors fans had booed him everytime he got called into the game, everytime he touched the ball and cheered everytime he missed a shot.

If the same situation happened last season when Dunleavy wasn't injured and was our consistent 2nd scoring option , I agree with JO'Bs call to run that play for Dunleavy to get that shot. All things being equal, he had a decent top of the key look to hit that shot. If he did so, we would have seriously deflated the cheering fans and changed the momentum of the game.

But given the liklihood that he probably doesn't have as much lift in his knees as he would like ( this being his 3rd game back ), the fact that his shot was off all night and it appears that the crowd clearly got into his head.....I agree that it was probably a bad idea for him to take that shot.

Overall, it was a good play that should have worked if Dunleavy was healthy....but it was a gamble that simply didn't pay off. In that situation, after Danny, I probably would have preferred to have Jack take that same shot since MurphLeavy had an off shooting night.

Unfortunately, it was a gamble that didn't pay off......
You know, I remarked to my wife who was watching the game w/me that I really do hope JOB drafts up a play for Dunleavy to hit the potential game winner. I would have been poetic justice for him to knock down a dagger and leave the GS Warrior fans even more tic'd off. It was a gamble for sure, but it's one I was glad he took...just wish he would have made it. :(

BRushWithDeath
01-12-2009, 05:16 PM
That's it right there, folks! We get Dunleavy back and what happens? Quis suddenly gets injured...???...sorry, folks, but I'm not buying it. I'm convinced this was purely a roster move. Pure and simple.


Is this a joke? Grassy knoll much?

JayRedd
01-12-2009, 06:31 PM
The Foster thing...... I'm sorry and no offense meant to you btw, but this is a typical Foster fan ploy.

I don't particularly like Jeff Foster actually. Certainly wouldn't ever venture to call myself a fan of his.


They always produce these fantasy stats about rpm or % of rebounds or something. Jeff Foster is not even the best rebounder on our team, not even close. What types of stats should be used to define whether or not someone gets a lot of rebounds? RPM is the best stat there is for that. It tells you exactly how many rebounds a player has gotten when he has been on the court. Sorry if you don't enjoy it, but it is what it is. There are of course other qualitative discussions to have about rebounding that certainly has a place in the overall rebounding debate, but there is simply no denying the fact that in looking at the quickest statistical barometer for how many rebounds someone has gotten minute-for-minute throughout a season/career, Jeff Foster has been one of the best rebounders of the past decade and is indeed among the historically elite.

Over the past eight seasons, he has been in the Top 10 in rebounds per minute every season -- only twice even falling out of the Top 5.

2007-2008 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2008&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 5th (17.0 per 48)
2006-2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2007&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 3rd (16.8 per 48)
2005-2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2006&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 1st? (17.4 per 48) (He doesn't qualify, I guess, for ESPN stats this year, but his 17.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01.html) is more than Dwight, who is listed as 1st.)
2004-2005 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2005&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 6th (16.6 per 48) (He again misses the minutes played cut off -- must be 1700, but his 16.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01.html) would have been good for 6th)
2003-2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2004&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 9th (14.9 per 48)
2002-2003 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2003&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 2nd (16.7 per 48) (He barely played this year though. 10.6 mpg)
2001-2002 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2002&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 4th (14.9 per 48)
2000-2001 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&qual=true&qual=true&sort=totreb&league=nba&split=0&season=2001&seasontype=2&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=all): 4th (16.2 per 48)

Throw in the offensive board prowess (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/orb_pct_career.html), and dude has chops. Troy is okay and all, and has been eating some glass this year...but he doesn't have this type of resume.


I really am hoping that you are kidding when you say you think of him as one of the best rebounders in history. I don't even consider him one of the best rebounders in Pacers history.Is Jeff Foster even near the same category as Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, Buck Williams, Dennis Rodman or Charles Oakley? Of course not. He's not even your boy Dale Davis.

By "one of the best," I just mean historically elite. As in, "Elton Brand is one of the post scorers of all time."

Sorry if that implied something incorrect -- I certainly am not even remotely saying that he's a Top 20 rebounder or anything. But he is statistically among the upper echelon of the 10,000 or whatever players who have been in this League at this one specific skill.

Meanwhile, the original context of the statement was a throwaway response to BRush With Death's comment that Foster offers nothing more than what Josh McRoberts could offer if given his minutes. My counter argument is only that one of the top 50ish best statistical rebounders in the history of the League probably has something to offer that a guy who's played a total of 175 of NBA basketball cannot.

That was the only point.

Bball
01-12-2009, 07:24 PM
I still say if you have 1 rebound separating you from a win or loss, Jeff won't get it. Jeff is great at tracking down loose balls or getting to the offensive glass when the defense isn't accounting for him, but let him have to fight for that ONE rebound with the clock ticking and more times than not, he won't get it.

Jeff benefits from nobody guarding him which helps him slide to the basket on offense for a putback... which he misses... and gets his own rebound... and sometimes misses that too... And the next thing you know, one putback basket got him 3-4 rebounds on the stat sheet.

In an ironic twist, if Jeff could actually shoot the ball, his rebounds would go down because teams would have a body on him... and he might actually hit a putback on the first attempt if he did get to the glass ;)

Anthem
01-12-2009, 09:16 PM
That's it right there, folks! We get Dunleavy back and what happens? Quis suddenly gets injured...???...sorry, folks, but I'm not buying it. I'm convinced this was purely a roster move. Pure and simple.
Haven't read the rest yet, so maybe this has already been mentioned.

But Quis was out for several games before Dun came back. And we needed him in those games. So the conspiracy theory doesn't hold up well.

Anthem
01-12-2009, 09:18 PM
I still say if you have 1 rebound separating you from a win or loss, Jeff won't get it. Jeff is great at tracking down loose balls or getting to the offensive glass when the defense isn't accounting for him, but let him have to fight for that ONE rebound with the clock ticking and more times than not, he won't get it.
Say it all you want, but there have been several cases of Foster getting a rebound to win the game. In fact, if I needed a rebound to win the game, I'd go with Foster over most players.

Bball
01-12-2009, 09:25 PM
Say it all you want, but there have been several cases of Foster getting a rebound to win the game. In fact, if I needed a rebound to win the game, I'd go with Foster over most players.


Go ahead and list some. All I can remember in those situations is Foster being blocked out of the play, out-muscled out of the play, or shoved in the back out of the play.

rexnom
01-12-2009, 09:36 PM
Say it all you want, but there have been several cases of Foster getting a rebound to win the game. In fact, if I needed a rebound to win the game, I'd go with Foster over most players.
Didn't Jeff get the rebound and call the timeout before Danny's three at Phoenix?

Anthem
01-12-2009, 09:38 PM
Didn't Jeff get the rebound and call the timeout before Danny's three at Phoenix?
Yup. He also got the rebound on Reggie's last game-winner.