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J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:13 PM
Wagner is a fantastic scorer and, if healthy, would be brilliant off the bench. He would torch Billups becauses hes quicker AND stronger than Chauncey.
Ollie can take AJ's place. Thats a lateral move.
Bender fills in for Al and becomes 6th man. If he breaks out Pacers are unbeatable.
Luke Jackson could and should start over Reggie. He's got R.O.Y written all over him.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 09:15 PM
Wagner is a fantastic scorer and, if healthy, would be brilliant off the bench. He would torch Billups becauses hes quicker AND stronger than Chauncey.

:rotflmao:

Billups- a 6'3" 202 PG

Wagner- a 6'2" 188 SG.

You tell ME which one is going to get beaten up on defense :rolleyes:

MagicRat
06-23-2004, 09:17 PM
Wagner is a fantastic scorer and, if healthy, would be brilliant off the bench. He would torch Billups becauses hes quicker AND stronger than Chauncey.

:rotflmao:

Maybe he meant to say "quicker and stronger than Legendary"?......:whoknows:

Kstat
06-23-2004, 09:18 PM
Wagner is a fantastic scorer and, if healthy, would be brilliant off the bench. He would torch Billups becauses hes quicker AND stronger than Chauncey.

:rotflmao:

Maybe he meant to say "quicker and stronger than Legendary"?......:whoknows:

I dunno, something tells me "Legendary" may be able to shoot better than .366 from the floor......

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:21 PM
Wagner has the potential to be a lot better than Billups. Sure his career has been filled with injuriews thus far, but where was Billups at this point in his career? Riding the pine in Denver? Hanging out at DIsney Workd down in Orlando? Ice fishing in Minnesota? Moose hunting in Canada?

Kstat
06-23-2004, 09:23 PM
Wagner has the potential to be a lot better than Billups. Sure his career has been filled with injuriews thus far, but where was Billups at this point in his career? Riding the pine in Denver? Hanging out at DIsney Workd down in Orlando? Ice fishing in Minnesota? Moose hunting in Canada?

There's a difference. Billups is a PG, Wagner is not. Wagner is an iverson-wannabe chucker with half the speed. There isnt a passing bone in his body.

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:27 PM
Billups only shot 39% so you have no room to talk about Wagner shooting 37%. If Wagner gets healthy hell get in rythm and his field goal percentage will skyrocket to the mid-40's.
And Wagner is 6'2" 200 at only 21 years old. He still has plenty of maturing to do, and hes already more muscular and quicker than Billups.

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:29 PM
And up untill this season Billups was nothing but a chucker. And I stand corrected, at the age of 21 Billups was still playing in some little unknown school in Colorado.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 09:31 PM
Billups only shot 39% so you have no room to talk about Wagner shooting 37%. If Wagner gets healthy hell get in rythm and his field goal percentage will skyrocket to the mid-40's.
And Wagner is 6'2" 200 at only 21 years old. He still has plenty of maturing to do, and hes already more muscular and quicker than Billups.

um, what part about "1 inch taller and 14 lbs heavier do you not understand? Scratch that, just have them stand side by side. There's a lot more baby fat on Juanny than there is on Chauncey. Billups would snap Wagner in half :laugh:

Wagner isnt stronger than Billups. You can entertain you fantasies about him being better than the finals MVP if you want, but they dont even play the same POSITION......you're assuming that wagner can play PG in the NBA, which he has shown ZERO willingness to do so.

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:52 PM
There's a 2 lb. diff. not 14. And the only reason he's 2 lb. heavier is because he has an inch on Dajuan. Billups average 2.7 lb. per inch, take that inceh off and he's only 199.3.
200 > 199.3
Conclusion? Wagner's stronger.
I've also heard that Wagner is near-Iverson quick. Wagners a stud just waiting to breakout, and on the Pacers he would.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 09:54 PM
There's a 2 lb. diff. not 14. And the only reason he's 2 lb. heavier is because he has an inch on Dajuan. Billups average 2.7 lb. per inch, take that inceh off and he's only 199.3.
200 > 199.3
Conclusion? Wagner's stronger.
I've also heard that Wagner is near-Iverson quick. Wagners a stud just waiting to breakout, and on the Pacers he would.

Please tell me you've at least SEEN Wagner play to be blowing all this smoke.

Are you his mother?

Wagner isn't fast. Maybe quicker for a 2-guard, but no fatser than the average PG. Iverson could outrun him on crutches.

Snickers
06-23-2004, 09:56 PM
There's a 2 lb. diff. not 14. And the only reason he's 2 lb. heavier is because he has an inch on Dajuan. Billups average 2.7 lb. per inch, take that inceh off and he's only 199.3.
200 > 199.3
Conclusion? Wagner's stronger.
I've also heard that Wagner is near-Iverson quick. Wagners a stud just waiting to breakout, and on the Pacers he would.

So if I eat 0.7 pounds of strawberry swirl ice cream, I'll be stronger? :confused:

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 09:58 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.
Big Al is 6'9" 250, Medium Ben is only 6'8" 240.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:00 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.

why do you insist on digging the hole deeper?

If he's your brother or you went to his highschool, just say so bro.

ChicagoJ
06-23-2004, 10:00 PM
This oughta be good.

:lurk:

Hicks
06-23-2004, 10:03 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.

why do you insist on digging the hole deeper?

If he's your brother or you went to his highschool, just say so bro.

He's using YOUR basis for why Chauncey's stronger than Wagner. Back it up. :laugh:

Suaveness
06-23-2004, 10:03 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.
Big Al is 6'9" 250, Medium Ben is only 6'8" 240.

:rotflmao:


YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING.

:rolleyes:

ChicagoJ
06-23-2004, 10:05 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.

why do you insist on digging the hole deeper?

If he's your brother or you went to his highschool, just say so bro.

He's using YOUR basis for why Chauncey's stronger than Wagner. Back it up. :laugh:

But I've never seen/ heard Al listed at 250. :confused:

EDIT
I guess he's officially listed at 250. I would've thought 240. UB must be right about all that baby fat. Of course, I'd also think that Ben weighs more than what he's listed at.

Snickers
06-23-2004, 10:05 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.
Big Al is 6'9" 250, Medium Ben is only 6'8" 240.

:laugh:

Al is 3.08 lbs to the inch, and Ben is 3.00 lbs to the inch, so obviously Ben is stronger, but only right after Al takes a dump. :P

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:08 PM
Al Harrington is stronger than Ben Wallace.
Big Al is 6'9" 250, Medium Ben is only 6'8" 240.

:laugh:

Al is 3.08 lbs to the inch, and Ben is 3.00 lbs to the inch, so obviously Ben is stronger, but only right after Al takes a dump. :P

:rotflmao:

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:09 PM
How is Al Harrington NOT stronger than Ben Wallace?
He's considerably bigger.

Suaveness
06-23-2004, 10:11 PM
How is Al Harrington NOT stronger than Ben Wallace?
He's considerably bigger.

Just because he is bigger doesn't mean he is stronger. Have you seen any Pacers and Pistons games?

MagicRat
06-23-2004, 10:12 PM
At 3.12 lbs/inch, I'll kick all of their backsides.....

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:14 PM
How is Al Harrington NOT stronger than Ben Wallace?
He's considerably bigger.

Just because he is bigger doesn't mean he is stronger. Have you seen any Pacers and Pistons games?

I guess what he's saying is dujuan wagner is stronger than chauncey, despite being smaller, because he does a lot of pushups and stuff.

comparing ben wallace to dajuan wagner is beyond incredible.

Not to mention I've SEEN the two of them close up. Billups is solid rock. Wagner has eaten a few too many big macs if he's up to 200lbs (NBA .com has him at 188 which is more believable).

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:24 PM
NBA.com has Wagner listed at 200 lb. The 1,88 is his height listed in another measurement. You were looking in the wrong place.
And why is Billups stronger because he's bigger yet Wallace is stronger than Harrington despite being smaller?
It couldn't be because they're both Detroit Pistons, could it?

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:30 PM
NBA.com has Wagner listed at 200 lb. The 1,88 is his height listed in another measurement. You were looking in the wrong place.
And why is Billups stronger because he's bigger yet Wallace is stronger than Harrington despite being smaller?
It couldn't be because they're both Detroit Pistons, could it?

Ben Wallace may be the only player in the NBA that can consistent;y overcome a size disadvantage with muscle. He's in a class of his own in that reguard. You putting Wagner in that class is laughable.

Once again, ive SEEN them play. Have you? Wagner has neither the great speed you mentioned, nor is he stronger than arguably the strongest PG in the entrie damn NBA. He posts up gary payton and kidd, i doubt Wagner is going to give him any trouble.

The second you said a 3rd-string cavalier reject who couldnt beat out such star guards as kevin ollie, Kedrick Brown and Jeff Mcinnis, would "torch" the reigning finals MVP you entered a losing battle.

Suaveness
06-23-2004, 10:31 PM
:lurk:

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:33 PM
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/nba/2002/1211/photo/a_wagner_i.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/cavaliers/wagner_250_020924.jpg
Wagner isn't fat, he's just built like a tank.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:34 PM
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/nba/2002/1211/photo/a_wagner_i.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/cavaliers/wagner_250_020924.jpg
Wagner isn't fat, he's just built like a tank.

wow, he looks amazingly quick in those photos ;)

yes yes, he's bult like the hulk, he's quick like iverson, he can catch bullets with his bare hands, yaada yaada yaada.......

.... he just cant break through that hall of fame backcourt on the cavs.... :laugh:

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:47 PM
http://enquirer.com/bearcats/2002/03/04/mcelroy.jpg
Wagner = Tank. He's a lot more muscular than Billups and if you cant see that by looking at these pics then you need to stop drinking the Homerade.
And who does Ben Wallace overpower? I can't recall any moments where Ben Wallace overpowered anyone. Ben Wallace is just a pretty body, all show, no go. He's Dale Davis' mini-me.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:50 PM
Wagner = Tank. He's a lot more muscular than Billups and if you cant see that by looking at these pics then you need to stop drinking the Homerade.
And who does Ben Wallace overpower? I can't recall any moments where Ben Wallace overpowered anyone. Ben Wallace is just a pretty body, all show, no go. He's Dale Davis' mini-me.

Ok, that does it. I'm done :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yes. I think the finals MVP is better than the 3rd string SG on the cavs. Im SUCH a homer :rolleyes:

I'm not going to let you embarrass yourself further. argue with the mirror if you have to.

and when you talk to your brother/cousin/highschool alumnus Wagner, tell him I said he sucks ;)

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:51 PM
The reason Dajuan Wagner hasn't played much is he's been injured since his rookie early in his year. He's had some bladder problems if I recall correctly, probably has to wear adult diapers. His trade value has dropped off considerably because of his injuries and he can be stolen from the Cavs, and I hope that theiving team is the Pacers.
Dajuan Wagner = future superstar.

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 10:53 PM
I'm not saying agners better. I'm saying he's stronger.
And yes, Wagner will be better than Chauncey "How The Hell Did I Win Finals MVP" Billups.

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:53 PM
The reason Dajuan Wagner hasn't played much is he's been injured since his rookie early in his year. He's had some bladder problems if I recall correctly, probably has to wear adult diapers. His trade value has dropped off considerably because of his injuries and he can be stolen from the Cavs, and I hope that theiving team is the Pacers.
Dajuan Wagner = future superstar.

Oh yeah, a guy wearing Depends strikes me as a superstar. :rolleyes:

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:54 PM
I'm not saying agners better. I'm saying he's stronger.
And yes, Wagner will be better than Chauncey "How The Hell Did I Win Finals MVP" Billups.


Wagner is a fantastic scorer and, if healthy, would be brilliant off the bench. He would torch Billups becauses hes quicker AND stronger than Chauncey.


someone's backtracking.....

Natston
06-23-2004, 10:55 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:56 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

Natston
06-23-2004, 10:58 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

Kstat
06-23-2004, 10:59 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

:D

Nah, if I wanted to that I'd start a more LEGIT argument, like Primoz vs Jermaine Oneal.........

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 11:02 PM
When did I say Wagner was better than Billups?
I said Wagner would torch Billups because he's stronger & quicker than Billups. Obviously at this stage in their careers Billups is better. However, I believe within 2 years Wagner will be the better player. Wagner came in the league destined to be a superstar in the Allen Iverson-mold, but unfortunately he was sidetracked with injuries. Once he gets healthy watch out.
Wager @ 21 > Billups @ 21
Wagners potential > Billups prime

Natston
06-23-2004, 11:02 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

:D

Nah, if I wanted to that I'd start a more LEGIT argument, like Primoz vs Jermaine Oneal.........

Well Primoz is stronger and a better post player because he's taller. Why do you think so many wanted to keep him?

Kstat
06-23-2004, 11:04 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

:D

Nah, if I wanted to that I'd start a more LEGIT argument, like Primoz vs Jermaine Oneal.........

Well Primoz is stronger and a better post player because he's taller. Why do you think so many wanted to keep him?

and really, what was JO doing at 21? :D

Natston
06-23-2004, 11:05 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

:D

Nah, if I wanted to that I'd start a more LEGIT argument, like Primoz vs Jermaine Oneal.........

Well Primoz is stronger and a better post player because he's taller. Why do you think so many wanted to keep him?

and really, what was JO doing at 21? :D

I doubt he was getting fitted for diapies... :neutral:

Kstat
06-23-2004, 11:07 PM
Come on Kstat, leave the Newb Troll alone. :)

trolls are nice practice as punching bags though.....

I'm still cracking up that wagner wears Depends :laugh:

I know you're just getting a jump on next year's "Most Argumentative" award... :devil:

:D

Nah, if I wanted to that I'd start a more LEGIT argument, like Primoz vs Jermaine Oneal.........

Well Primoz is stronger and a better post player because he's taller. Why do you think so many wanted to keep him?

and really, what was JO doing at 21? :D

I doubt he was getting fitted for diapies... :neutral:

so whats the over/under on Wagner being the next spokesperson for depends?

You gotta figure those diapers slow down that awesome speed of his? and what if he has an accident? :cool:

J-Wont
06-23-2004, 11:08 PM
Wagner is younger, quicker, stronger, and more skilled. There only reason this guy shouldn't be a better basketball player than Chauncey Billups is injuries. His injuries are now gone, expect him to blowup. 16 & 6 on 39% should be easily eclipsable by a healthy 22 year old Dajuan Wagner.

MagicRat
06-23-2004, 11:15 PM
Well, I guess Chauncey is a little bigger, but the extra bulk might slow him down......

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/billupswagner.jpg

Natston
06-23-2004, 11:17 PM
Well, I guess Chauncey is a little bigger, but the extra bulk might slow him down......

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/billupswagner.jpg

:laugh:


Too Funny...

Kstat
06-23-2004, 11:21 PM
you forgot to add wagner's diapers Magicrat.... ;)

Natston
06-23-2004, 11:25 PM
you forgot to add wagner's diapers Magicrat.... ;)

I was just about to type that... :laugh:

ChicagoJ
06-23-2004, 11:29 PM
:lurk:

See what happens when you disappear for a half hour to watch ESPN?

:laugh:

Suaveness
06-23-2004, 11:32 PM
:lurk:

See what happens when you disappear for a half hour to watch ESPN?

:laugh:


Seriously :laugh:

Slick Pinkham
06-24-2004, 12:29 AM
There's a difference. Billups is a PG, Wagner is not. Wagner is an iverson-wannabe chucker with half the speed. There isnt a passing bone in his body.

Your description of Wagner is pretty much the opinion that Pitino had of Billups (backed by Bob Cousy, who thought Chauncey would NEVER learn point guard skills).

They were wrong, obviously, about his potential.

Wagner is in the same boat. I'd say NOW he's a little quicker than Billups but not as strong. He definitely has more shot-making ability but poor shot selection. He is nowhere as quick as Iverson.

IF HE WORKS HARD AND WANTS TO LEARN THE POINT, I think that 5 years from now he'd be better than Billups ever was. Not by a lot, and maybe not as good as a defender, but better offensively in transition and in half court sets.

fwpacerfan
06-24-2004, 09:40 AM
I'm coming late to Wednesday night at the fights :box: but from reading things it looks like:


Kstat says Chauncey is stronger than Wagner because he is taller and weighs more. He gave no other reason.


J-Won't says that Al is stronger than Big Ben because he is taller and weighs more.

Kstat then counters with the good old standby when you are losing an argument - he insults the rookie.


If I were to give my scorecard in right now I would say the rookie has given the veteran Kstat a TKO. :D

Stryder
06-24-2004, 09:58 AM
I have not read this entire thread, nor will I, but I just wanted to say that strength is not proportional to how tall someone is or how much someone weighs.

I do believe Chauncey is stronger, though.

And the argument that Ben Wallace is not a strong guy is laughable at best. And to even say that Harrington is stronger, is ridiculous...

:laugh:

fwpacerfan
06-24-2004, 03:26 PM
I have not read this entire thread, nor will I, but I just wanted to say that strength is not proportional to how tall someone is or how much someone weighs.

I do believe Chauncey is stronger, though.

And the argument that Ben Wallace is not a strong guy is laughable at best. And to even say that Harrington is stronger, is ridiculous...

:laugh:

I (like most on here) happen to agree w/Kstat but I'm waiting for him to come up with a stronger argument than "Billups is taller and weighs more."

Eindar
06-24-2004, 04:42 PM
I think it's all relative, and weight doesn't neccessary correllate to strength. This is another Bender "urban legend" but I read on the Indy Star website that he's one of the strongest guys in the weight room, and obviously he's still very light.

As for Chauncey Billups, I'd put Brewer on him. The man is a defensive pit bull :)

Stryder
06-27-2004, 11:38 PM
Bump.

Stupid debate!

Young
06-28-2004, 12:03 AM
Ignore.

Hicks
06-28-2004, 12:08 AM
Have to add the closing tags. Easiest way is to first have the front tag show up, paste what you need, then hit CTRL and SPACE. That makes the appropriate end tag appear.

Since you have to edit to do it now, i"m not sure if that will work and you may just have to type them in yourself.

MagicRat
06-29-2004, 09:37 AM
From a quote box with the Harrison story in the print edition of this morning's Star:


"We don't have a guy like David. We don't have a guy of his size (7 feet) and strength (285 pounds)."
==================
Pacers Coach Rick Carlisle


Let the debate rage on!...........:box: