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MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:01 PM
This was the worst coaching job I have seen in a long time. I still dont understand how there was no timeout called before Jack took that final shot. JOB is one of the worst coaching that has been hired by this franchise.

His substitutions made no sense either. Hibbert deserved a lot more mins. He didnt deserve to be subbed out so early in the 1st quarter.

On another note, Lee impressed me a lot today also. I have been very high on Lee and mentioned that a lot on this board. For those of you that havent seen him play, how do you guys like his game now? He finished with 26 points, 10 rebs, 5 steals and 12/15 shooting. Not a bad game at all. He wouldnt be our starting PF answer, more of a PF/C off the bench to bring that energy

pianoman
01-02-2009, 11:03 PM
Ugly ugly win. I have a feeling Obie will not finish the season here.

Kemo
01-02-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd much rather replace the coach sooner than later ... if it is inevitable...


I am always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but that benefit is really starting to wear thin .. and quickly..

Roaming Gnome
01-02-2009, 11:06 PM
Ugly ugly win. I have a feeling Obie will not finish the season here.

Didn't know an 11- win team could have ugly wins... Any win is a nice win when you are a bad team like we are!

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:06 PM
If JOB is replaced, which I dont see happening though I want it to happen, its not happening this season. He will finish the season as the Pacers coach.

Anyone know what his contrat is like?

D-BONE
01-02-2009, 11:06 PM
I like Lee, but we've already got an older model in Foster and, maybe, a younger one in McBob.

Feels good to win. Does a W over NY equal 1/2 a W in the standings?

A pretty ugly affair both ways. Good defense painfully absent both ways.

Jack with a great game. Appears we are now officially a smallball team.

Speed
01-02-2009, 11:08 PM
Why no Rasho, was he even there, is this his first DNP-CD, was he traded???

Roaming Gnome
01-02-2009, 11:08 PM
I like Lee, but we've already got an older model in Foster and, maybe, a younger one in McBob.

Feels good to win. Does a W over NY equal 1/2 a W in the standings?

A pretty ugly affair both ways. Good defense painfully absent both ways.

Jack with a great game. Appears we are now officially a smallball team.

Not when they are ahead of you in the standings... Like they are!

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Why no Rasho, was her even there, is this his first DNP-CD, was he traded???

I was wondering why he didnt play either. Might be a trade coming, who knows? Kind of hard just to speculate from that

Speed
01-02-2009, 11:10 PM
I didn't see him over there, but who knows?

jeffg-body
01-02-2009, 11:10 PM
I also noticed that Rasho was not in the lineup? Was it the small ball match-up or something deeper like a pending trade?

BlueNGold
01-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Ugly ugly win. I have a feeling Obie will not finish the season here.

Obie is not going anywhere. Just sit back and consider him our ticket to a high draft pick.

In the 35 or so years I have followed basketball, I have rarely if ever criticized a coach. He is getting more from me than any other coach in any sport. The fact he benched Hibbert might be explained. The fact he didn't call a time-out and lucked out with helter-skelter scoring a bucket at the end...is more concerning. Most good coaches would have called a play at the end. I would like someone to explain why he didn't call a time-out.

vnzla81
01-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Why no Rasho, was he even there, is this his first DNP-CD, was he traded???

I hope he got traded:dance:

Speed
01-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Seems odd he didn't play at all.

Roaming Gnome
01-02-2009, 11:13 PM
No timeout? I dont care how good of a shot that was by Jack by NO TIMEOUT.

No timeout means the Defense can't set up out of the timeout that you wanted so badly.


Then why have a coach at all? We needed a play called, we were lucky it turned in our favour

Hey, if you are down in that situation.... I favor a timeout, but when you are tied and the worst thing that can happen is overtime on a missed shot. I'd rather catch them off guard then playing against an entrenched defense.

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:13 PM
I didn't see him over there, but who knows?

Was he on the bench at all? In uniform?

D-BONE
01-02-2009, 11:14 PM
Whoops. Posted in the game thread on accident so I'll repeat...

must the emphatically anti-JOB crowd continue the whining about him? It's a LONG season and it's next to impossible he gets canned this year. And I don't even consider him to be particularly good.

Major Cold
01-02-2009, 11:15 PM
If they lose you hate. If they win you hate. It is a road win celebrate.

Knicks were 0-14 when trailing going into the 4th. If we could not close this one out then it would have been bad.

Jack was stellar. Murphy was loss on defense, but picked up some rebounds.

count55
01-02-2009, 11:15 PM
I would suspect that Rasho didn't play because the Knicks have no C, and Obie's decided to give the limited "big man" minutes in that situation to Hibbert.

I would've liked to see a little more of Hibbert, but I'll take the win.

BlueNGold
01-02-2009, 11:22 PM
If they lose you hate. If they win you hate. It is a road win celebrate.

Knicks were 0-14 when trailing going into the 4th. If we could not close this one out then it would have been bad.

Jack was stellar. Murphy was loss on defense, but picked up some rebounds.

Man, my standards must be way too high. I enjoy ugly games, but only when it's because of good defense. This was just plain ugly. Maybe some of the worst basketball I have seen in decades.

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:23 PM
If they lose you hate. If they win you hate. It is a road win celebrate.

Knicks were 0-14 when trailing going into the 4th. If we could not close this one out then it would have been bad.

Jack was stellar. Murphy was loss on defense, but picked up some rebounds.

Its not about hating, its about losing a 10 point lead in the 4th to such a bad team. If we cannot hold a lead in the 4th to a team like NY, who are we going to hold a lead against? The game should not have been close, we were beating them through the first 3 quarters then collapsed at the end, as usual

Justin Tyme
01-02-2009, 11:24 PM
My guess why no Rasho, while I was watching the game, was due to the BTB tomorrow with the Kings having bigs. A tired Rasho and Hibbert are useless against Miller and bigs. JMOAA

Dr. Goldfoot
01-02-2009, 11:25 PM
Rasho was there and in uniform.

idioteque
01-02-2009, 11:26 PM
We have not traded Rasho, that's not even worth speculating on. Some of you people must REALLY want a trade right now. We are rebuilding. With most NBA teams, rebuilding ones included, teams are only going to trade right before the trade deadline or during the summer. Right now is not either one of those times. Please relax.

We are in year one of a multi-year rebuilding process. Please don't expect us to require all of our pieces immediately. You guys must have driven your parents crazy on Christmas Eve.

aceace
01-02-2009, 11:28 PM
I didn't really see ugliness. Both teams were playing hard. I was somewhat impressed with the comeback. At least we closed one out for a change.

Justin Tyme
01-02-2009, 11:29 PM
I watched the post game interview with JO'B, and even after the win he looked and acted like the Pacers had lost.

When asked about the Murphy foul on Chandler he got defensive, but admitted it was a mistake on Murphy to have fouled Chandler.

BlueNGold
01-02-2009, 11:32 PM
I watched the post game interview with JO'B, and even after the win he looked and acted like the Pacers had lost.

You have to ask yourself why he felt that way. Why was he not proud that the team pulled out a win? Was it because his system looks like garbage?

aceace
01-02-2009, 11:32 PM
Anybody hear J.Jack say after the game that it was nice to hit one in his cousins face. Apparently he and Chris Duhon are cousins.

Major Cold
01-02-2009, 11:33 PM
I didn't really see ugliness. Both teams were playing hard. I was somewhat impressed with the comeback. At least we closed one out for a change.


It was ugly though. That is all that matters.

Hey I would like for them to play better. But this WIN will help boost their confidence. My standards are high, but not unrealistic for this team.

Justin Tyme
01-02-2009, 11:34 PM
You guys must have driven your parents crazy on Christmas Eve.


No reason to when you knew all you were getting was an apple, an orange, and maybe some hard candy.

idioteque
01-02-2009, 11:35 PM
No reason to when you knew all you were getting was an apple, an orange, and maybe some hard candy.

:laugh:

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:37 PM
Anybody hear J.Jack say after the game that it was nice to hit one in his cousins face. Apparently he and Chris Duhon are cousins.

the Knick commentators brought this up, him and Duhon are distant cousins

crunk-juice
01-02-2009, 11:43 PM
yeah how can you have an ugly win when you suck

MillerTime
01-02-2009, 11:46 PM
yeah how can you have an ugly win when you suck

When you suck and blow a 10 point lead in the 4th to almost lose to a team that sucks more than you

BlueNGold
01-02-2009, 11:49 PM
No timeout means the Defense can't set up out of the timeout that you wanted so badly.

Hey, if you are down in that situation.... I favor a timeout, but when you are tied and the worst thing that can happen is overtime on a missed shot. I'd rather catch them off guard then playing against an entrenched defense.

The more I think about it, the more I think you are right.

Under circumstances where no time-out is called NEITHER the offense or the defense has a particular advantage. Now, typically when a coach calls a play on offense, the defense may have a chance to dig in, but in theory the offense should still have the advantage of surprise and the chance to make a clever play. But since clever calling plays and running an organized game-plan is not the goal these days, I suppose no time-out was the best option. The best option was helter-skelter of course. Gotta love it.

Roaming Gnome
01-03-2009, 12:38 AM
When you suck and blow a 10 point lead in the 4th to almost lose to a team that sucks more than you

according to the standings... The Knicks are a better team. So, how are you figuring the Knicks suck more then we do?

BlueNGold
01-03-2009, 12:42 AM
according to the standings... The Knicks are a better team. So, how are you figuring the Knicks suck more then we do?

From a talent standpoint, we have the best player on either team. Al Harrington is not better than Danny Granger and neither is David Lee.

We also have players taller than an undersized PF. It's a well known fact that the Knicks dumped all their talent sans Lee. We should be better in the standings.

Dr. Awesome
01-03-2009, 12:48 AM
according to the standings... The Knicks are a better team. So, how are you figuring the Knicks suck more then we do?

They have a coach who actually knows what he is doing. They haven't had a schedule nearly as difficult as ours either.

Roaming Gnome
01-03-2009, 12:50 AM
From a talent standpoint, we have the best player on either team. Al Harrington is not better than Danny Granger and neither is David Lee.

We also have players taller than an undersized PF. It's a well known fact that the Knicks dumped all their talent sans Lee. We should be better in the standings.

Should... But, we're not! I agree with the fact that Danny is a better player then either Lee or Harrington, but that doesn't necessarily speak for who is providing the best team work on the floor.

Personally, it's getting old hearing folks complain as if the Pacers were a presumed 50-win team that's massively underachieving.

Cherokee
01-03-2009, 12:53 AM
Jack was stellar. Murphy was loss on defense, but picked up some rebounds.

Overall, Murphy played fairly decent defense, not including his three steals. He did have three terrible turnovers early and an ill-time foul late, but "some rebounds" equaled 18 and he had 15 points to boot. Take him out, I'd bet the Knicks get the win.

pacerDU
01-03-2009, 12:54 AM
It was a really strange game to watch. Extraordinarily sloppy from both teams. The P's offense in the first half was decent, but it just fell apart in the second half.

To me it either looks like there is no type of structured offense, or the players on the court simply don't run it. I can probably count on 1 hand during that game the amount of times an actual play was run. It almost seems to be: point guard drives into the lane and hopes that either a shot presents itself of someone gets open to pass to. If none of those appear, throw up a hail-mary. It's just lucky Jarrett was hitting tonight.

There were so many sequences where Danny didn't even touch the ball. That says to me right there that they're not running the offense because Danny is our biggest threat. He shot 10 shots tonight (still managed to put 22 on the board mind you), with 3 other guys shooting more. Roy took 2 less shots than Danny did!! That shouldn't happen. Can you imagine Wade or Nowitzki taking only 10 shots?

It was a win and I'm glad we finally won one of these close ones. This is a rebuilding team and we need to be patient, however this team needs to show a lot more poise and execution than it has.

wjs
01-03-2009, 12:57 AM
Was he on the bench at all? In uniform?

I was at the game tonight. Rasho was there, in uniform. We were confused why he did not play; maybe saving him for Sacto is correct.

JOB's rotations were strange; Roy should have played more ... at least for several more fouls. Baby Al was demanding the ball each play in the 4Q. Troy took down some tough rebounds, and so did Jeff. I'd like David Lee on the Pacers.

BlueNGold
01-03-2009, 01:02 AM
Should... But, we're not! I agree with the fact that Danny is a better player then either Lee or Harrington, but that doesn't necessarily speak for who is providing the best team work on the floor.

Personally, it's getting old hearing folks complain as if the Pacers were a presumed 50-win team that's massively underachieving.

Most people complaining don't presume this is a 50 win team. However, I do think those people believe we are better than our record...and we probably are. Our schedule has been very difficult until quite recently...so I would not be surprised if the Pacers are really an above .400 team...maybe closer to .500 with a healthy Mike Dunleavy.

Cherokee
01-03-2009, 01:04 AM
I like Lee, but we've already got an older model in Foster and, maybe, a younger one in McBob.


With all due respect, I don't think Foster is near the all-round player Lee is. We would have been much better off tonight if Hibbert had played some of Foster's minutes. I don't think Foster is as good as he was earlier in his career, or even earlier this year. His offense is almost always a non-factor, but his defense of late has not been very good, either. All he's done lately is foul and gripe.

Roaming Gnome
01-03-2009, 01:07 AM
They have a coach who actually knows what he is doing. They haven't had a schedule nearly as difficult as ours either.

I feel that J'OB is fine in his current roll as most likely a filler coach. I know that the team struggles at the end of games and a lot complain about Obie's game time management, but his record in close games in Philly and Boston don't jive with what we are seeing this year.

It's hard for me to ignore how our team competes every night and is prepared for all opponents we've played. Personally, I can't ask for more out of a "rebuilding" effort. Don't get me wrong, losing these games are frustrating, but as long as our young guys get some burn in games, we come out prepared, and we always play hard... I think we are showing improvement over last year.

As for the schedule.. "You are what your record is!" Our tough schedule ended over a month ago.

PaceBalls
01-03-2009, 01:08 AM
I would always prefer no timeout in that situation at the end of the game. They had 12-14 seconds left on the clock. NY is running back not set in their D. I don't understand what advantage calling a timeout there would have for us. We would inbound the ball at half court with the risk of a turnover, dribble away 6 seconds against a set defense and hope for as good a look as Jack got.

The only time I would say call a timeout there is if there is less than 8 seconds remaining. I'm all for letting these guys play it out.

And all this JO'B bashing is really getting old. The guy has a bad team of new guys with alot of injuries. There is things I don't like about his style, but really, I think he is a good coach for this team as it stands. Would Phil Jackson gonna get more out of this team? negative. Rick Carlisle? maybe, but I doubt it. It is what it is guys.

aceace
01-03-2009, 01:20 AM
Personally, it's getting old hearing folks complain as if the Pacers were a presumed 50-win team that's massively underachieving.They should have a much better record, losing 12 games in which you led in the 4th. I think that's what they are referring too. With the changes over the summer we should be better.

MillerTime
01-03-2009, 01:26 AM
They should have a much better record, losing 12 games in which you led in the 4th. I think that's what they are referring too. With the changes over the summer we should be better.

we should be better. We finally fixed the PG situation, last season we have Diener and Flip running point. This season we have Ford and Jack which is a HUGE upgrade from last season. Williams and JT are gone from last season, so theres less distractions from last season. JO's gone, but then again he didnt play much last season, and when he did play he wasnt very effective....so overall I would agree that with the changes in the summer, we SHOULD be a better team

Roaming Gnome
01-03-2009, 01:39 AM
Jarret Jack was given the US Army's Strong Player of the night award on NBA TV's gametime program. He also has a post-game interview that can be seen on NBA.com.

theboyjwo
01-03-2009, 01:47 AM
It all comes down to end of game execution. Tonight we seen Ford try to lob one in on the run to troy murphy which of course doesn't work because troy isn't that kind of player. It seems like 5:00 left in the game this team becomes very frantic, tonight they pushed and pushed and probably had about 5 possessions in a row in the final 5 minutes where they gave the ball away on a bad shot. Murphy fouls when we are up by 3. The biggest bone head play in a long time.

All they had to do is drive it to the basket and start drawing fouls. Would have one this game easy. 5:00 and your up by 10. Get to the line. Instead they start launching 3's left and right.

JOB needs to run end of game situations in practice. With a shot clock and a time keeper. Make it just like a game as much as possible. Obviously they are plenty well coached for 3 1/2 qtrs

Unclebuck
01-03-2009, 01:59 AM
I have decided to officially avoid the post game threads. Pacers lose blame the coach. Pacers win blame the coach, the sun comes up in the morning, blame the coach, it is cold in the winter time, blame the Pacers coach.

Very tiring

CableKC
01-03-2009, 02:05 AM
My guess why no Rasho, while I was watching the game, was due to the BTB tomorrow with the Kings having bigs. A tired Rasho and Hibbert are useless against Miller and bigs. JMOAA
Good guess. I have noticed that Rasho seems to be more winded as of late.

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2009, 04:45 AM
I have decided to officially avoid the post game threads. Pacers lose blame the coach. Pacers win blame the coach, the sun comes up in the morning, blame the coach, it is cold in the winter time, blame the Pacers coach.

Very tiring
I'm pleased to see JOB settling in to working with Hibbert and Rush consistantly. I hope that keeps up even if it's rocky at times. Both need confidence and awareness, and experience is the main way to get both of those. The other great thing tonight was that he got McBob in the game. Even if it's just 5-10 minutes per I think that's a good thing.

Frankly McBob has become a player I enjoy watching, period. He brings excitement with him and I think he's got as much room to grow as Hibbert or Rush, and maybe more.


The problem with the team is PG play right now. I really like TJ and JJ but they don't look so hot lately. Lots of terrible indecision in their passing games.


Troy has fully won me over. He's overpaid, I'm not turned around on that, but he's just been so aggressive on the glass and has even bumped up the effort on the offensive rebounding end that it's hard not to like him. Plus I think he's right there with Quis and Jeff when it comes to understanding the JOB strategy.


Yes they won a close one, but the fact is that it shouldn't have been. I'm glad they salvaged a win out of what should have been another crappy collapse, but it didn't give me the warm fuzzies. They just have zilch for quality late game offense. Maybe Dun will fix that if he actually does return before AS break. We'll see.

Naptown_Seth
01-03-2009, 05:18 AM
I would always prefer no timeout in that situation at the end of the game. They had 12-14 seconds left on the clock. NY is running back not set in their D. I don't understand what advantage calling a timeout there would have for us. We would inbound the ball at half court with the risk of a turnover, dribble away 6 seconds against a set defense and hope for as good a look as Jack got.
Yeah, that's typically what happens when guys like Jackson, Sloan, Pop or Brown call a set play coming out of a timeout.
:rolleyes:

In the NBA offense beats defense, you can't stop players you only slow them. A decently designed play coming out of a timeout should ALWAYS get you a good look.

Now if the point is that JOB couldn't make that happen then we are back to what the original complaint was. Teams call timeouts and run final plays, and teams win games doing this.

I don't know if JOB is or isn't a timeout play guy, I'm just saying that it's a bit nuts to dismiss using a go-to play that your guys are ready to run in favor of just going for it, and more so when the prior 10 minutes of spontaneous offense has been a massive train wreck that nearly lost the game.

How about Jack drives lane, leaps for the layup, throws a wild pass straight back and sees it stolen and taken in for the winning dunk by the Knicks. That's kinda how they got into that late game tie in the first place after all.

Alabama-Redneck
01-03-2009, 08:47 AM
Yeah, that's typically what happens when guys like Jackson, Sloan, Pop or Brown call a set play coming out of a timeout.
:rolleyes:

In the NBA offense beats defense, you can't stop players you only slow them. A decently designed play coming out of a timeout should ALWAYS get you a good look.

Now if the point is that JOB couldn't make that happen then we are back to what the original complaint was. Teams call timeouts and run final plays, and teams win games doing this.

.


If I remember correctly, those coaches usually have much better talent than the Pacers have this year, with more than one scoring option.

Watching the game on TV, it certainly looked like JOB called a play right after the rebound and as JJ was starting up the floor. JJ looked over to JOB, who signaled and yelled something and then JJ started up the floor.

Maybe JOB was telling him where they would eat after the game but I doubt it.

Just what I observed.

:cool:

Alabama-Redneck
01-03-2009, 09:00 AM
I have decided to officially avoid the post game threads. Pacers lose blame the coach. Pacers win blame the coach, the sun comes up in the morning, blame the coach, it is cold in the winter time, blame the Pacers coach.

Very tiring


I totally agree, UB.

This forum is getting away from the basketball information mecca it was famous for and is turning into just another "B!tch Board" where it seems complaining is the only way some can communicate.

How many ways can you say the same thing before it becomes redundant.

That is why I don't post much.

:cool:

Quis
01-03-2009, 09:49 AM
If Jack's offense was even close to as good as it was tonight, on a consistent basis, I could overlook his complete lack of point guard ability.

I enjoy winning, but I wont lie - I'd rather have a 25-57 team with a likely top 5 pick than a 35-47 team picking from 10-14.

DisplacedKnick
01-03-2009, 10:04 AM
I'm very disappointed by us blowing another late 4th quarter lead. That happens when you make TO's and can't defend but it's getting old.

We do have less talent than Indy - probably. We had more before we traded Randolph and Crawford but we don't now. Though Wilson Chandler has some big-time ability but he's 21 and in his 2nd season and hasn't figured it out yet. And of course Nate's very talented but so erratic that it's hard to say if he'll ever be a real help to a team or not.

And anyone who compares Foster to Lee should forfeit their right to post on this board, at least about basketball. Other than rebounding numbers, their games are nothing alike. Lee has a solid offensive game and Foster can defend - and that's just the blatantly obvious stuff.

JayRedd
01-03-2009, 10:59 AM
So our backup PG scores 29 points including a game winner after some dude on the other team ties it up with an amazing monster dunk drive plus the harm and I have to read three pages of silly bickering about coaching?

I'm not sure many of you even enjoy the sport of basketball.

Staggering. Truly, staggering.

count55
01-03-2009, 11:01 AM
So our backup PG scores 29 points including a game winner after some dude on the other team ties it up with an amazing monster dunk drive plus the harm and I have to read three pages of silly bickering about coaching?

I'm not sure many of you even enjoy the sport of basketball.

Staggering. Truly, staggering.

Fair statement. I'll shut up.

BlueNGold
01-03-2009, 11:10 AM
If a set play is no option for this team, we will continue to lose many, many competitive 4th quarters...and set even more records for historical comebacks by the opposition.

You have to control tempo, control turnovers and get stops in the 4th quarter to win close games...or at least a couple of those things. We do none of them and it's not just the players' faults. It's a combination of talent deficit and the helter-skelter style we play. There's a reason we are 5th in the league in turnovers, and it's not just the personnel.

BlueNGold
01-03-2009, 11:13 AM
So our backup PG scores 29 points including a game winner after some dude on the other team ties it up with an amazing monster dunk drive plus the harm and I have to read three pages of silly bickering about coaching?

I'm not sure many of you even enjoy the sport of basketball.

Staggering. Truly, staggering.

Oh, I think it's staggering that anyone enjoyed that display last night.

Based on JOb's press conference, he wasn't impressed either.

Bball
01-03-2009, 12:34 PM
I'd have more to say about this game...if I saw it. Since I couldn't see it I'll just add this. I think most people were prepared to watch the team lose a lot this season. What most people weren't prepared for was to see th quantum leap in chemistry this team showed early on. They play hard every game, seem to care about their teammates as much as themselves, and tend to at least look like they have some pride in being a professional basketball player playing for the Indiana Pacers.

Most importantly, I don't think many expected the team to be of a quality to steal wins from teams like Boston and LA as well as carry so many leads deep into games. The fact that we end up losing those leads has led people to look for answers and many people have put JOB in the crosshairs for that reason.

Oddly, he'd probably be better off if we were constantly chasing the opponent, not out in front. Instead, we've had the enviable position of being in the lead too many times for the argument that we're just not talented enough to win or compete to really get any traction. We obviously CAN compete, we just can't finish.

I don't think there's any question that JOB is part of the problem there... the question is whether there's a method to his madness and we're just too far removed from practice and the lockerroom to see it.

We might just be ahead of schedule in some aspects and that has put JOB in an awkward position.

Whether that means he needs to reassess our priorities or we need a different coach probably doesn't matter now. Why would we fire him midseason and for what replacement? And of the midseason replacements... would we get an interim someone who is just good enough to leave giant question marks about what they'd do with a full offseason and the team as their own? We don't want or need painted into a corner of a Mike Davis type situation where someone does just good enough, and has just enough player and fan support, to force the team into signing the coach instead of assessing our options fully and looking to a more experienced candidate. OTOH, it's always possible that interim coach IS the answer. It just seems more times than not you get Bill Lynch, not Woody Hayes that way.

Until the team stops playing hard for OBrien I think he's sitting on a block of ice. If the team would ever fracture and start mailing it in, I think a midseason replacement might be tried.

That said, unless something changes with these late game collapses, OBrien's seat will be hot this offseason. If there is a method to the madness it better start showing results by the end of the season if not sooner.

Justin Tyme
01-03-2009, 12:50 PM
What bothers me about this thread are the comments made to stop personal views that don't coincide with others views. Maybe it isn't intentional, but it's there all the same. If a poster says what they feel is negative to the held view of others, then it is wrong. It's seems some are trying to systematically force censureship on others beliefs and thoughts. Isn't a forum a board for discussion of views?

I can name numerous posters that hold certain views that are not held by me, but they have the right to hold those views as I have the right to hold my views that may be different than theirs.

Example, I have given reasons why I like David Lee. I'd take him over Foster any day of the week and twice on Sunday. As much as I like Lee, I don't feel he is the answer to the PF that the Pacers need. Yet, others feel he isn't much better than Foster. They are entitled to their view even though I disagree. Last night's game showed why I personally feel they are wrong. Yet, they are still entitled to their belief even if it isn't the same one I hold.

There are those that feel 30 wins is all that can be expected from the talent the Pacers have. They refuse to see it any other way. I guess I could call that negativism, but I don't. They are entitled to that view even if I disagree with it. Others, including myself, have pointed out this team has more talent playing this year than last year, and this team should have a record that is better than 11-21. I don't disagree this is a rebuilding year, but I truly feel it's better than it's record. If others disagree with my view, are they being negative? Absolutely not. They are just expressing their view that is different than mine.

The same with JO'B. You have those who feel he's a good coach that sees no wrong, and then you have others who want his head on a platter for various reasons. When those that voice their displeasure with JO'B, they are being too critical or negative. They see things they don't like, and voice their opinion. It's not, they don't like JO'B because he wears ugly ties, has a funny hair do, etc. It's something they feel he isn't doing, like playing certain players, going with a short rotation, coaching decisions, game management, etc. Are they not allowed to voice their opinions b/c others are tired of hearing it? If that's the case, it becomes censureship by being pressured not to voice one's opinion. Has it come to the point that if you can't say something positive to satisfy the Sally Sunshiners don't say anything at all?
JMOAA

BlueNGold
01-03-2009, 01:30 PM
Justin - I think people are tired of the incessant harping. I can understand that and will attempt to reduce my own contributions to it. At the same time, the whining about the whining is just as bad and will only antagonize. I would suggest that people make use of the ignore feature if they want to filter certain views or certain methods of posting.

Pacers Digest is very "clubby". There is an air of political correctness and sheepishness at times. Some of the members act like other posters are intruding even though it's a forum open to the public, where there should be more inclusiveness to views and methods of posting. For those who think only one set of views or methods of posting are legitimate, stop the whining about posts and try the ignore feature. It was designed for this very purpose.

If they are an Admin, well, it was their choice. This is a public forum and I suppose they could change the rules and ban people for whining.

Skaut_Ech
01-03-2009, 01:32 PM
Obie is not going anywhere. Just sit back and consider him our ticket to a high draft pick.

In the 35 or so years I have followed basketball, I have rarely if ever criticized a coach. He is getting more from me than any other coach in any sport. The fact he benched Hibbert might be explained. The fact he didn't call a time-out and lucked out with helter-skelter scoring a bucket at the end...is more concerning. Most good coaches would have called a play at the end. I would like someone to explain why he didn't call a time-out.

http://sportszoneatv.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/phil_jackson_300_070402.jpg

I thought it was a very Phil Zen move. I LOVE Jackson's timeout, or rather, lack of them. It cultivates creating thinking players and on-court leaders. I actually liked that he didn't call a time out. I though it was the smartest coaching play/non-play Obie made all game.

Big Smooth
01-03-2009, 01:49 PM
I have decided to officially avoid the post game threads. Pacers lose blame the coach. Pacers win blame the coach, the sun comes up in the morning, blame the coach, it is cold in the winter time, blame the Pacers coach.

Very tiring

I agree. The negativity level on this board has spiked. I can't believe the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth over that New York game last night. It was an ugly win, yes. But personally I found it refreshing to see the P's stick the game winner at the end for once. Even the best teams in the league have to grind out ugly wins so I don't see why it is a crime for a bad team to win ugly. 11-21, we need all the wins we can get. :)

Justin Tyme
01-03-2009, 02:14 PM
http://sportszoneatv.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/phil_jackson_300_070402.jpg

I though it was the smartest coaching play/non-play Obie made all game.

I hadn't kept track of the time outs, so I didn't know if the Pacers had one left or not... still don't know. I was critical of JO'B's decision a while back for not calling a time out, so when there wasn't a time out called I knew what JO'B was trying to do... catch the Knicks off balance w/o the opportunity to set up "D". I thought well let's just see how this works out. It worked out fine and a win, but I still feel there are times it's best to call a time out at the end of the game.

Kudos to it working out. If it hadn't and the Pacers had a time out left would I have been upset b/c no time out had been called, probably b/c they are playing the Knicks who aren't known for their "D". I would have felt the time out wouldn't have been helpful to the Knicks setting up a defense.

Anyway it turned out to be a good move, and the Pacers won. Hopefully, tonight another win, but one where a last second shot doesn't determine the game. Hopefully, a win tonight along with last nights win can get this team back on a winning track!

JayRedd
01-03-2009, 03:20 PM
So I just watched the full game (had only seen the "Knicks in 60" truncated replay this morning previously). And watching with the hindsight of some posters' opinions in this thread allowed me to watch for some specific things.

Ostensibly, it does seem a little puzzling that Hibbert didn't get more burn after his good offensive start. He had two nice little jump hooks to start off and finished two other half-broken plays, then came out at 4:51 in the 1st, never to return until after half time. You would think Jimmy would have given him another opportunity to try to exploit the utter lack of height on the Knicks roster.

But...My purely speculative belief is that JO'B saw him blow his pick-and-roll defensive assignment one too many times and got fed up. I'm led to think this because Lee scored on an uncontested lay-in off a pick-and-roll on one end, then we came down, missed a shot, got the offensive rebound back and Jimmy instantly called a timeout. The Knicks had been running the Duhon/Lee screen/roll on three or four of the last half dozen possessions and while they weren't exactly finishing on a Stockton/Malone level, they were exploiting Roy's poor trapping, hedging, recovering and general poor footwork, and Lee was popping free with about zero difficulty. It wasn't leading to direct scores every time, but it was making our entire defense vulnerable and the only thing that was preventing a lot of points was the inability of the Knicks to convert on the open looks it was getting them (often in a "hockey assist" type of way to a cutter/spot-up shooter). Additionally, Hibbert also got smoked down the court by Lee on two occasions, so that plus the pick-and-roll failures could have driven Jimmy to say enough is enough.

I'm not sure that's exactly why, but it seems pretty logical and we know Jimmy isn't going to yank someone for an offensive mistake most likely. And we also know, as with Rush and McRoberts, that missing your defensive assignments gets you a prolonged seat on the bench pretty quickly.

And, honestly, despite his early offensive productivity...it's a pretty long-shot that a 7'2" rookie with stamina issues is going to see much court time when the 1st and 3rd fastest-playing teams in the NBA square off. So maybe Jimmy told him something like "you're starting tonight, but if I see ______, then we're not going to be able to use you out there." That's just more pure speculation obviously.

As for the 2nd half, Hibbert started and played five minutes, by which time he looked like he was about to fall down. While his tiredness shows he was busting his tail to play D and just get up and down the floor, it was also costly to the team. Defensively, he couldn't get out on Lee, who made two wide open 17-footers (one from the top of the key and one from the wing) on two of the last four-ish possessions that Hibbert was in the game for. Hibbert also just couldn't get back on D on his final possession and ending up having to guard Duhon after Marquis picked up an otherwise-wide-open Lee under the hoop.

Then he never played again.

You can argue all you want about whether a coach should let him "play through" these mistakes -- God knows I won't be participating in such a discussion -- but I think what we're seeing is that there are some things that Jimmy puts his foot down about and takes a stance of "we went through this 1000 times in practice and if you screw it up, you're not playing. Period."

And.since coaching and rotations seem to be the only thing people are interested in nowadays...there was also a notable moment with Danny right before the end of the first half. He clearly got benched with about 90 seconds left before half time (a particularly strange time to bench your best player) after one of his quickly-becoming-signature passes into the third row towards nobody. Well, maybe not nobody because it actually almost hit Jimmy in the face while he was in his little leprechaun crouch. Then, without hesitation, had no problem yanking his star player, presumably to give him the message that he -- and the whole team -- needs to take care of the damn ball. Maybe JO'B thought such a turnover signaled the fact that Danny was too tired to be out there -- but with 15 minutes of half time to rest 90 seconds later, me don't thinks so.

imawhat
01-03-2009, 04:01 PM
But...My purely speculative belief is that JO'B saw him blow his pick-and-roll defensive assignment one too many times and got fed up. I'm led to think this because Lee scored on an uncontested lay-in off a pick-and-roll on one end, then we came down, missed a shot, got the offensive rebound back and Jimmy instantly called a timeout. The Knicks had been running the Duhon/Lee screen/roll on three or four of the last half dozen possessions and while they weren't exactly finishing on a Stockton/Malone level, they were exploiting Roy's poor trapping, hedging, recovering and general poor footwork, and Lee was popping free with about zero difficulty. It wasn't leading to direct scores every time, but it was making our entire defense vulnerable and the only thing that was preventing a lot of points was the inability of the Knicks to convert on the open looks it was getting them (often in a "hockey assist" type of way to a cutter/spot-up shooter). Additionally, Hibbert also got smoked down the court by Lee on two occasions, so that plus the pick-and-roll failures could have driven Jimmy to say enough is enough.

I'm not sure that's exactly why, but it seems pretty logical and we know Jimmy isn't going to yank someone for an offensive mistake most likely. And we also know, as with Rush and McRoberts, that missing your defensive assignments gets you a prolonged seat on the bench pretty quickly.


Everyone who asks why Hibbert isn't getting more minutes (especially at the end of games) should read your post. Most people only see what he does on offense.

I thought last night was a little extreme. He looked to be exploiting the Knicks defense more than he was getting exploited.

One of my complaints about O'Brien's substitution patterns is that he tightens the rotation too much in the fourth quarter and players get too tired (i.e. 3 4th quarter subs last night compared to 19 in q1-3). When they get too tired, they stop moving. When they stop moving, the offense becomes stagnant and so on. The offense moves very well when Roy plays, so why not put him in for 2 minutes and get the offense moving while allowing the finishers to rest?

Also, last night was one of the rare instances where O'Brien pulled Rush after passing up a wide-open 3 and then traveling.

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-03-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm guessing this would be a good place for this and maybe an explanation for those questioning JOB's decision to not call a timeout on the last play.

Via IndyCornrows:

Knicks outpaced by Indiana at Garden
BY FRANK ISOLA
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2009/01/02/2009-01-02_knicks_outpaced_by_indiana_at_garden_.html



Everyone inside Madison Square Garden, from Chris Rock to James Dolan, knew that Jarrett Jack was taking Indiana's final shot. Even Mike D'Antoni knew it, which is why he wanted Jared Jeffries in the game for defensive purposes, only to be foiled by Jim O'Brien's decision not to call a timeout.

MillerTime
01-03-2009, 04:43 PM
ohhh...So JOB didnt call a timeout to ensure NY wouldnt get their best defenders out there...make sense

grace
01-03-2009, 05:34 PM
I rarely listen to JOB's radio show, but the one time I did they were talking about timeouts. He said sometimes the important timeout is the one you don't call.

krayyy
01-03-2009, 06:14 PM
So our backup PG scores 29 points including a game winner after some dude on the other team ties it up with an amazing monster dunk drive plus the harm and I have to read three pages of silly bickering about coaching?

I'm not sure many of you even enjoy the sport of basketball.

Staggering. Truly, staggering.

haha. yea. i'm new here and i'm already sick of what i see. i see coach bashing is popular here. if you can't play coach? oh no that is teach. but i imagine most here can't play so they wish they were coach. you want to whine about not calling a timeout?? really?? there is such a thing as taking a defense by surprise. you will note that there was a timeout called before the knicks play tied it up. i'm certain obrien drew up a play for the event the knicks tied it up. murphy was boneheaded for fouling. but to think a timeout is necessary after they tied it up, is rediculous. it is a good thing you who criticize the coach aren't coaching, because for one you cannot fathom how silly your original criticism is in the first place.

Justin Tyme
01-03-2009, 07:28 PM
haha. yea. i'm new here and i'm already sick of what i see. i see coach bashing is popular here. if you can't play coach? oh no that is teach. but i imagine most here can't play so they wish they were coach. you want to whine about not calling a timeout?? really?? there is such a thing as taking a defense by surprise. you will note that there was a timeout called before the knicks play tied it up. i'm certain obrien drew up a play for the event the knicks tied it up. murphy was boneheaded for fouling. but to think a timeout is necessary after they tied it up, is rediculous. it is a good thing you who criticize the coach aren't coaching, because for one you cannot fathom how silly your original criticism is in the first place.


Welcome to PD Krayyy.

You'll find at PD not everyone is a Sally Sunshiner like they are chastized into being over at another forum where you post, whos forum name won't be mentioned. A post with constructive criticism isn't shunned, especially when the post has validity backing it up. Opinions are encouraged here not just the regurgitating of the opinions that are popular from those who frown on reading anything that doesn't conform to their "positive views" as at that other board. There is more enlightenment in thinking here with the difference of opinions. You don't have to agree with the post or poster, and have to be worried about being called names b/c someone disagrees with your view or opinion. It may be your cup of tea or it might not, but again, welcome to PD.

Shade
01-06-2009, 01:43 PM
I have decided to officially avoid the post game threads. Pacers lose blame the coach. Pacers win blame the coach, the sun comes up in the morning, blame the coach, it is cold in the winter time, blame the Pacers coach.

Very tiring

Well, maybe that's because...the coach is the problem?

JOB has made very questionable decisions in many, many close games this season, the majority of which have placed us on the L side of the ledger. If JOB keeps making the same mistakes, it's going to lead to people bringing up the same complaints.