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Shade
01-10-2009, 01:58 AM
I thought Jim did a pretty good job tonight, until Danny fouled out. Then he went into brain-freeze mode again.

count55
01-10-2009, 02:14 AM
somebody that loves JOB please tell me why foster and Jack where on the floor at the end of the game? 5 guys guarding 3:confused:

Jack was on the floor because, with Ford out, he's one of your best five, even on an awful offensive night. (Travis had announced that he was used up for the night in his customary way, by trying to throw a three-point through the flange.

I think O'Brien made a mistake by having Foster on the floor, but there was no Danny, and it sure feels like Rasho hasn't hit a jump shot since sometime in the mid-90's at this point. However, it was a call I don't think was right.


I thought Jim did a pretty good job tonight, until Danny fouled out. Then he went into brain-freeze mode again.

The only problem I had was with Foster being on the floor for the last play.

vnzla81
01-10-2009, 10:31 PM
Can anybody tell me who are the "free agents" coaches out there that are better than JOB? I don't like JOB as a coach so I want to know who are the other options, thanks.

idioteque
01-10-2009, 10:36 PM
Can anybody tell me who are the "free agents" coaches out there that are better than JOB? I don't like JOB as a coach so I want to know who are the other options, thanks.

There aren't any.

That's one of the main reasons I want JOB to stay, he is as good as its gonna get. The Pacers are losing money right now as it is and there's no way they don't let him coach through his contract.

vnzla81
01-10-2009, 11:06 PM
There aren't any.

That's one of the main reasons I want JOB to stay, he is as good as its gonna get. The Pacers are losing money right now as it is and there's no way they don't let him coach through his contract.

In other words we are screw:eek:

kbills05
01-13-2009, 08:33 AM
it is absurd to me how Murphy,Dunleavy,Rasho, and Diener are all being played at the same time. This is crazy to me, maybe O'brien does not see it but these guys have no lateral movement hell they barely move forward. i mean i would think defense is something you have to want to do. but it shocks me that he continues to yank Hibbert when he is playing well or Rush when he is playing well but stick w/ Rasho, Murphy when they arent making any contributions. And its not like the vets we have are marquee names or anything.

But when will this coach be held accountable, because it is obvious he cannot get the best out of these guys w/ the poor play calling at the end of games to the inconsistent substitutions and the poor usage of timeouts....This guy is not our coach, your thoughts?

DGPR
01-13-2009, 08:38 AM
Fire the coach!

What does the thread title have to do with the material of your post?

nerveghost
01-13-2009, 08:45 AM
I believe the problem isn't with the coaching and substitution patterns, but more with (as you more or less pointed out) the talent.

As Slick would say, "You gotta have the horses."

You have to take into account injuries here, too - Ford is hurt and Daniels is hurt which makes our bench pretty thin and puts O'Brien's ideal rotations out of whack.

I've been pretty defensive (no pun intended) of O'Brien this year because i think he is doing what he can with what he has - its tough to not have a post presence, or a legit inside defender. However, the recent 120 point games are disheartening.

If the Pacers go in the lotto, I feel Bird will make some moves in the offseason and give O'Brien one more year to make something happen.

jhondog28
01-13-2009, 08:59 AM
I believe the problem isn't with the coaching and substitution patterns, but more with (as you more or less pointed out) the talent.

As Slick would say, "You gotta have the horses."

You have to take into account injuries here, too - Ford is hurt and Daniels is hurt which makes our bench pretty thin and puts O'Brien's ideal rotations out of whack.

I've been pretty defensive (no pun intended) of O'Brien this year because i think he is doing what he can with what he has - its tough to not have a post presence, or a legit inside defender. However, the recent 120 point games are disheartening.

If the Pacers go in the lotto, I feel Bird will make some moves in the offseason and give O'Brien one more year to make something happen.


Agreed. I think OB is doing as well as he can with the talent he is dealt, however I think a lot of the posters have had a problem with his substitution patterns in games. Before this thread gets off track let me go back to the original idea of those four people mentioned lacking athleticism. Here is my response to that....................DUH! Sorry but anyone watching a TV knows this is not an athletic group of players, plus sorry it seems as if there was a theme with the players you mentioned. I also would like to point out that Hibbert has not blown me away with his athleticism.

kbills05
01-13-2009, 09:07 AM
Just wanted to point out to you guys that when the brawl happened Carlisle had less to work with pg...tinsley, sg...fred jones, sf...James Jones, PF croshere n, Center Foster...yet he was able to get the team to defend and play at a high level.....thus, O'brien has better players w/ jack, daniels,granger,foster,hibbert and can't get them to play a lick of D" Please someone explain to me y this is....?

duke dynamite
01-13-2009, 09:26 AM
I disagree. Diener seems to be the only one on this team that can push the ball upcourt.

Dunleavy just came back from injury. Give him time.

I think watching the games more closely will keep you from throwing these guys under the bus.

Jonathan
01-13-2009, 09:28 AM
Murphy last night seemed to be using his shot fake then drive more. He is a terrible perimeter shooter though. He does avg a double/double.

Dunleavy is just getting back from an injurya & missed the first thirty games. He is in exhibation mode and everybody else is in pre-season mode. What do you expect from him after missing thirty games?

Diener- is the teams third PG, he does his job of pushing the tempo. He plays b/c Tinsley is not suiting up. What more do you want from a third PG?

Rasho- is a true professional. He does hustle and has a better perimeter jump shot than Troy. He also can pass the ball very well.

As far JOB not playing Hibbert. Did you watch the game last night? Hibbert picked up three fouls in the first six minutes. He passed the ball to Brewer (Jazz) for a dunk.

duke dynamite
01-13-2009, 09:35 AM
Ugh, another one of these threads.

There was another group of players on the floor, with a mindset of redemption, plus you had Reggie back from injury, and coming out with his last season.

I wouldn't go comparing apples to grapes here. Both are tasty, but each makes a unique flavor of juice.

Brad8888
01-13-2009, 09:56 AM
Carlisle coached a more structured, slower style of play. Mistakes were easier to make up for because they were not magnified by the faster pace that O'Brien coaches. At a faster pace of play, when a change of possession on our offensive end occurs, it is easier for the opposition to fly down the court and capitalize prior to our guys getting back and THEN having to read what the opposition is doing and make the appropriate reactions. This can also lead to defensive mistakes.

At an overall slower pace, our guys could more easily get back and were less fatigued when they did. Also, it was easier to read the opponents offense and react correctly when our team had the opportunity to set up in the half court defensively. It did not require as much quick thought or effort to be effective.

Our current quick offense does force the opposition into defensive mistakes as well, though, especially when they become fatigued. The opposition has the choice of going deeper into their bench to players who are generally less experienced or more error prone, or leaving their fatigued players on the floor to ride things out. Carlisle went deeper into our bench (when we had depth, which was not the case immediately in the aftermath of the brawl) and adjusted defensive schemes to funnel opposing players toward whatever area of the floor that he felt our team would be the strongest defending with whatever lineup he had available at a given time.

Carlisle adjusted his system to fit the players and their strengths as he saw them, while O'Brien expects his players to go against what they have been taught most of their basketball careers and provide token pressure on the perimeter while trying to entice the opposition to drive while we try to get deflections, with rotational help defense attempting to cover the massive gap that we have in the middle without any decent help for our only interior defender, Jeff Foster, who is obviously wearing down and getting discouraged in many recent games during our streak of close games.

My guess is that O'Brien will not trust his young guys, being McRoberts, Hibbert, and Rush due to their inability to grasp his defensive system. The flaw to this logic is that they will not learn the system if they don't play much, if at all, in actual games with the expectation that they try to execute the system. Carlisle would have adjusted the system to a more easily learned version and then added to the complexity as his young athletic guys progressed and became effective with what they were being taught.

Unclebuck
01-13-2009, 09:59 AM
Just wanted to point out to you guys that when the brawl happened Carlisle had less to work with pg...tinsley, sg...fred jones, sf...James Jones, PF croshere n, Center Foster...yet he was able to get the team to defend and play at a high level.....thus, O'brien has better players w/ jack, daniels,granger,foster,hibbert and can't get them to play a lick of D" Please someone explain to me y this is....?

What do you mean - play at a high level. They did lose 7 in a row after winning 2 of their first 3 right after the brawl. They did get JO back, they did sign DD, they had Reggie

Bball
01-13-2009, 10:08 AM
If we don't have an athletic group of players why are we playing this Chinese Fire Drill Helter Skelter offense? Also, I'm having a hard time reconciling the comments where people bemoan our lack of athleticism and then say we play the way we do because it's our only chance to win. That seems absolutely backwards to me.

-Bball

duke dynamite
01-13-2009, 10:09 AM
What do you mean - play at a high level. They did lost 7 in a row after winning 2 of their first 3 right after the brawl. They did get JO back, they did sign DD, they had Reggie
That's what I was thinking.

I'm starting to think that most of these threads are being started out of desperate frustration.

duke dynamite
01-13-2009, 10:15 AM
If we don't have an athletic group of players why are we playing this Chinese Fire Drill Helter Skelter offense? Also, I'm having a hard time reconciling the comments where people bemoan our lack of athleticism and then say we play the way we do because it's our only chance to win. That seems absolutely backwards to me.

-Bball
I kept wondering who those guys were running very fast up and down the court this season.

2minutes twowa
01-13-2009, 10:28 AM
kbills05 will continue to start random, useless threads if we continue to comment on them. STOP THE MADNESS:D

Major Cold
01-13-2009, 10:35 AM
"Once you are emotionally committed to a particular outcome, it can be very hard to maintain your objectivity." Jo-Ellen Dimitrius

sloopjohnb
01-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Are we going to blame JOB for the recent illnesses? Injuries? Mike D. not playing? Rush shooting horrible recently? Jack taking it coast to coast missing when we could have had the last shot? etc. etc. JOB is not a bad coach just a victim of unusual circumstances this year. He has not lost the team and therein is where the decision comes.

Well who are we to blame? Bird or O'Brien.

Bird is doing his part (see the draft, see the O'Neal trade). Although maybe O'Brien gets a pass so far because he's dealing with so many new roster additions.

We're the eighth-worst team in the league. Jim O'Brien is a filler coach and I'd be surprised if he lasts through the offseason (provided the Pacers season continues to go the direction it is going). Let's look at the facts: last year the Pacers finished 36-46. This year they are on pace to finish 28-54. That's a 64-100 record in two seasons.

My problem with O'Brien is that he is not playing the younger players. He's using the veterans as a crutch because he needs wins to secure his future as the team's coach. Only problem is, we're not winning.

Any ideas of who might be a good candidate to replace O'Brien, if he is indeed fired this season or after the season?

I have a few:

Mark Jackson - Former Pacers point guard of the NBA-Pacers-glory-days. He has experience as a floor leader, but none as a coach. Does a good job of color analysis on ESPN. He wasn't interested in coaching the team the last time the job was available, but now he's been turned down for a few positions he wanted. Maybe that humbled him. At the same time, this Pacers team looks like a team a coach might have more interest in being a part of. I bet if Jackson were offered the position this summer, he'd consider it.

Sam Mitchell - Another former Pacer. Did a good job with coaching younger players in Toronto, but his teams' defenses haven't been consistently good.

What you folks think?

sloopjohnb
01-13-2009, 12:46 PM
Can anybody tell me who are the "free agents" coaches out there that are better than JOB? I don't like JOB as a coach so I want to know who are the other options, thanks.

It took a lot of searching to find any of this information. Here is the best link I could find. From National Post. Top five free agent coaches.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/postedsports/archive/2008/12/19/nba-weekly-these-five-coaches-won-t-be-unemployed-for-long.aspx

And another link. It's from Talking Points, a Bay area blog and relates to the eventual replacement of Don Nelson for Golden State. Still this gives a decent listing of some free agent coaches.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2008/12/18/the-next-up-nba-coach-candidate-list-not-that-the-warriors-might-be-looking-or-anything/

There you go.

2minutes twowa
01-13-2009, 12:50 PM
Never been a huge Sam Mitchell fan as a coach, so I wouldn't like to see him as the coach of the Pacers. I think Jackson is an interesting option. If he can lead from the bench like he did on the court, I think he'd be one hell of a coach. Do you think he would do his shimmy after his first coaching win:D

Unclebuck
01-13-2009, 12:51 PM
I'll start thinking about a replacement when it is time to replace O'Brien - and we are a long way away from that

Dr. Goldfoot
01-13-2009, 01:16 PM
I'll start thinking about a replacement when it is time to replace O'Brien - and we are a long way away from that

You know you want Thibodeau (http://www.nba.com/celtics/roster/coaches/tom-thibodeau.html).

Unclebuck
01-13-2009, 01:36 PM
You know you want Thibodeau (http://www.nba.com/celtics/roster/coaches/tom-thibodeau.html).

You weren't supposed to tell anyone. (also don't tell anyone that the Celts defensive system is a lot like the Pacers)

DGPR
01-13-2009, 04:00 PM
Fire da coach!


Same thread as last time.

bambam
01-13-2009, 05:16 PM
IMO, when the offense seemed not to do anyting. Basically stand around and hope Danny would make something happen. The one tall athletic guy we have on our bench should be in for either Foster or Rasho (which should stay in, b/c he can make shots)...McRoberts. Everytime Josh is in , the offense seems to move, most importantly he makes stuff happen on the defensive end (blocks or rebounds). Just my opinion.

Roy Munson
01-13-2009, 05:46 PM
it is absurd to me how Murphy,Dunleavy,Rasho, and Diener are all being played at the same time. This is crazy to me, maybe O'brien does not see it but these guys have no lateral movement hell they barely move forward. i mean i would think defense is something you have to want to do. but it shocks me that he continues to yank Hibbert when he is playing well or Rush when he is playing well but stick w/ Rasho, Murphy when they arent making any contributions. And its not like the vets we have are marquee names or anything.

But when will this coach be held accountable, because it is obvious he cannot get the best out of these guys w/ the poor play calling at the end of games to the inconsistent substitutions and the poor usage of timeouts....This guy is not our coach, your thoughts?

Perhaps someone ought to point out to OB that these guys are all white, and you can't have that many white players in the game at the same time.

Hicks
01-13-2009, 05:50 PM
Perhaps someone ought to point out to OB that these guys are all white, and you can't have that many white players in the game at the same time.

:unimpress

QuickRelease
01-13-2009, 06:01 PM
Murphy last night seemed to be using his shot fake then drive more. He is a terrible perimeter shooter though. He does avg a double/double.

Depends on the situation with Troy. From 3-point range, he's an excellent shooter for a big man. If you make him move shoot on the move, then not so much. You'd really like your PF to be shooting higher than mid-to-low 40's from the floor. But he spends most of his time away from the basket.


As far JOB not playing Hibbert. Did you watch the game last night? Hibbert picked up three fouls in the first six minutes. He passed the ball to Brewer (Jazz) for a dunk.

But he also did some very nice things offensively. I really am looking forward to Roy's continued development. It should be fun to watch the Pacers field the twin towers next year (Block Party: featuring Hibbert/Thabeet).

vnzla81
01-13-2009, 07:05 PM
You know you want Thibodeau (http://www.nba.com/celtics/roster/coaches/tom-thibodeau.html).

I like thibodeau,Mark and EJ

Kemo
01-13-2009, 07:09 PM
Perhaps someone ought to point out to OB that these guys are all white, and you can't have that many white players in the game at the same time.


Can we be a little more racist?? :mad:

Bball
01-13-2009, 07:13 PM
Can we be a little more racist?? :mad:

Until proven otherwise, I believe Roy was being sarcastic.

BRushWithDeath
01-13-2009, 07:19 PM
The ironic part is that our most athletic player is white.

LoneGranger33
01-13-2009, 08:48 PM
Just wanted to point out to you guys that when the brawl happened Carlisle had less to work with pg...tinsley, sg...fred jones, sf...James Jones, PF croshere n, Center Foster...yet he was able to get the team to defend and play at a high level.....thus, O'brien has better players w/ jack, daniels,granger,foster,hibbert and can't get them to play a lick of D" Please someone explain to me y this is....?

Isn't that explanation enough? The guy is pure gold.

vnzla81
01-13-2009, 09:10 PM
It took a lot of searching to find any of this information. Here is the best link I could find. From National Post. Top five free agent coaches.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/postedsports/archive/2008/12/19/nba-weekly-these-five-coaches-won-t-be-unemployed-for-long.aspx

And another link. It's from Talking Points, a Bay area blog and relates to the eventual replacement of Don Nelson for Golden State. Still this gives a decent listing of some free agent coaches.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2008/12/18/the-next-up-nba-coach-candidate-list-not-that-the-warriors-might-be-looking-or-anything/

There you go.

thanks ;)

Los Angeles
01-13-2009, 09:37 PM
Dunleavy's very athletic. He's skinny, sure. But the guy is one hell of a movement player.

Shade
01-13-2009, 09:40 PM
it is absurd to me how Murphy,Dunleavy,Rasho, and Diener are all being played at the same time. This is crazy to me, maybe O'brien does not see it but these guys have no lateral movement hell they barely move forward. i mean i would think defense is something you have to want to do. but it shocks me that he continues to yank Hibbert when he is playing well or Rush when he is playing well but stick w/ Rasho, Murphy when they arent making any contributions. And its not like the vets we have are marquee names or anything.

But when will this coach be held accountable, because it is obvious he cannot get the best out of these guys w/ the poor play calling at the end of games to the inconsistent substitutions and the poor usage of timeouts....This guy is not our coach, your thoughts?

Please stop making threads with the not-so-subtle purpose of taking shots at JOB. We have an entire thread for that.

Shade
01-13-2009, 09:42 PM
Just wanted to point out to you guys that when the brawl happened Carlisle had less to work with pg...tinsley, sg...fred jones, sf...James Jones, PF croshere n, Center Foster...yet he was able to get the team to defend and play at a high level.....thus, O'brien has better players w/ jack, daniels,granger,foster,hibbert and can't get them to play a lick of D" Please someone explain to me y this is....?

Please stop making threads with the not-so-subtle purpose of taking shots at JOB. We have an entire thread for that.

BlueNGold
01-13-2009, 09:52 PM
Please stop making threads with the not-so-subtle purpose of taking shots at JOB. We have an entire thread for that.

Probably could use a new forum. Maybe banish the thread over to UnPD.

I think there are some decent topics to debate on JOb though. I find it ironic that, while his players may not bring much defense, his supporters certainly do....:D

Shade
01-13-2009, 09:53 PM
I hope you didn't just refer to me as a JOB supporter, because that couldn't be further from the truth. :-p

vnzla81
01-13-2009, 09:58 PM
I would love for you guys to put the Danny Grangers threads together also(Danny a superstar thread,Danny the model, Danny the real deal,Danny 4 in scoring, etc, etc ,etc):rolleyes:

BlueNGold
01-13-2009, 10:27 PM
I hope you didn't just refer to me as a JOB supporter, because that couldn't be further from the truth. :-p

No. There is a particular cliche defending him and you are not part of it...;)

To me the whole JOb thing is just a matter of time. He's arguably an above average coach...but I don't think I'd be arguing that. I think he's right there in the middle somewhere. He's better than a highly paid babysitter. Anyway, he's here until the 2010 season.

In the meantime, I plan to watch Granger light up the scoreboard and crack the all-star team. Then, when Granger is entering his prime and this team gets a few more pieces, I hope JOb is enjoying retirement...and the Pacers are back in the playoffs.

MiaDragon
01-13-2009, 11:03 PM
No. There is a particular cliche defending him and you are not part of it...;)

To me the whole JOb thing is just a matter of time. He's arguably an above average coach...but I don't think I'd be arguing that. I think he's right there in the middle somewhere. He's better than a highly paid babysitter. Anyway, he's here until the 2010 season.

In the meantime, I plan to watch Granger light up the scoreboard and crack the all-star team. Then, when Granger is entering his prime and this team gets a few more pieces, I hope JOb is enjoying retirement...and the Pacers are back in the playoffs.

Hey may very well be, just not with these players.

duke dynamite
01-14-2009, 12:41 AM
Has anyone ever eaten a saltine cracker that just wasn't all that fresh? Over the past weeks, this argument has become stale, all nasty and chewy. It's come to lose it's flavor.

All that has needed to be said has been said. Let's move on.

Kemo
01-14-2009, 01:43 AM
Until proven otherwise, I believe Roy was being sarcastic.


LOL so was I .. meh we need a sarcasm smilie

nerveghost
01-14-2009, 04:29 PM
I almost started the "Official Fire Boomer and Bowser" and the "Official Fire The Guy That Pats Me Down Before The Games" threads, but i thought better of it.

Seriously though, Boomer's defense is horrible. Those dudes on trampolines dunk EVERY TIME.

Roaming Gnome
01-15-2009, 10:51 PM
All season, I've been on Jim's side. I've felt that Jim O'Brien was doing fine for this team because we needed someone to usher in a rebuilding effort. Developing young players, changing the culture, instill professionalism by having these guys playing hard every minute they're on the floor and being prepared for the games in general. I thought that Jim did those things so well, that I over looked some of the things that he doesn't shine at in game, per se.

Now, the word is... We are going to cease giving our young developing guys minutes to make a push for wins. Personally, I feel this is a grave mistake. I'm not calling for our developing guys to get major minutes, but they need consistent minutes instead of just garbage minutes.

I just feel like our teams focus is turning towards one of O'Brien's weaknesses. I guess from here on out, If the focus is not getting our developing players consistent minutes... It is time to hold hold O'Brien accountable for how he manages a game. I personally will start to look at Jim with a more critical eye considering his focus isn't development.

I do not discount the experience a team gets by going to the play-offs. I value that more then the crap-shoot known as the draft. In the end, I'm just afraid that eliminating the developing players minutes is going to get us a team that still finishes in 9th place in the East. To me, that is only a waste!

vnzla81
01-15-2009, 10:54 PM
All season, I've been on Jim's side. I've felt that Jim O'Brien was doing fine for this team because we needed someone to usher in a rebuilding effort. Developing young players, changing the culture, instill professionalism by having these guys playing hard every minute they're on the floor and being prepared for the games in general. I thought that Jim did those things so well, that I over looked some of the things that he doesn't shine at in game, per se.

Now, the word is... We are going to cease giving our young developing guys minutes to make a push for wins. Personally, I feel this is a grave mistake. I'm not calling for our developing guys to get major minutes, but they need consistent minutes instead of just garbage minutes.

I just feel like our teams focus is turning towards one of O'Brien's weaknesses. I guess from here on out, If the focus is not getting our developing players consistent minutes... It is time to hold hold O'Brien accountable for how he manages a game. I personally will start to look at Jim with a more critical eye considering his focus isn't development.

I do not discount the experience a team gets by going to the play-offs. I value that more then the crap-shoot known as the draft. In the end, I'm just afraid that eliminating the developing players minutes is going to get us a team that still finishes in 9th place in the East. To me, that is only a waste!

Are you coming to our side? that is what I been saying all this time. good post.

Roaming Gnome
01-15-2009, 11:01 PM
Are you coming to our side? that is what I been saying all this time. good post.

I'll give him a chance with the vets before I join in :mob:

BlueNGold
01-15-2009, 11:03 PM
The strategy of playing our vets is a farce....not because of benching the young players...but because the difference between playing our vets and giving the younger guys some time is not much of a difference. Heck, we've already got the vets logging alot of minutes.

The only thing that will make a substantive difference is if Mike Dunleavy gets in a groove. As long as he is less than 80%, this team will continue to lose.

...and like Gnome said, the likelihood of the Pacers missing the playoffs at this point is quite high. The worst case scenario for this team is missing the playoffs, missing developing our young guys and lowering our draft pick...all for the 10% chance of getting spanked by the Celtics in the playoffs.

All things considered, it's not a good bet for several reasons.

flox
01-15-2009, 11:24 PM
To be quite fair, as I've stated in another post, the Pacers have a semi-decent shot at making the playoffs. We've played the league's toughest schedule (SOS at .540), we've played 5 more games at home than away, we've lost many close games that could have gone either way, and a lot of the players were injured during the stretch, plus we had to rely on a bunch of below average players (Rush, Diener, Hibbert to name a few).

Unclebuck
01-16-2009, 11:26 AM
It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail. If only we play Roy, Rush and Josh 15-20 minutes per game next year they will be superstars who will lead us to the promised land. But if we make them earn their minutes the Pacers will be terrible for the next 15 years - when in reality we have a star player in Granger - shouldn't we worry about building around him instead of force-feeding minutes to two middle first round draft pick and a second rounder. Those three will be as good as they are going to be in 2 years whether they play that much or not

flox
01-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Well, the dilemma is that playing minutes rarely will hurt prospects, while not giving them minutes can stunt growth. Many busts would have not been busts if they had just been given more time on the court.

Unclebuck
01-16-2009, 11:38 AM
Well, the dilemma is that playing minutes rarely will hurt prospects, while not giving them minutes can stunt growth. Many busts would have not been busts if they had just been given more time on the court.

I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.

duke dynamite
01-16-2009, 11:47 AM
It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail. If only we play Roy, Rush and Josh 15-20 minutes per game next year they will be superstars who will lead us to the promised land. But if we make them earn their minutes the Pacers will be terrible for the next 15 years - when in reality we have a star player in Granger - shouldn't we worry about building around him instead of force-feeding minutes to two middle first round draft pick and a second rounder. Those three will be as good as they are going to be in 2 years whether they play that much or not
Granger got a decent share of minutes his first year and a half. He was forced into the starting role after we traded Harrington. Looking at it this way, force feeding minutes may not be the best idea in the world. Gradual progression and showing the coach that you work hard in practice, and stay consistent is the only way.

He may be an exception, or the example.

flox
01-16-2009, 12:00 PM
I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.

Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.

duke dynamite
01-16-2009, 12:00 PM
Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.
You play well, you get extra minutes.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 12:08 PM
I hope you didn't just refer to me as a JOB supporter, because that couldn't be further from the truth. :-p


There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.

flox
01-16-2009, 12:09 PM
You play well, you get extra minutes.

I don't really buy into that. Look around the league, you see players like Speights playing well but they are limited to 8 minutes a game or something.

flox
01-16-2009, 12:11 PM
There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.

I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.

duke dynamite
01-16-2009, 12:12 PM
I don't really buy into that. Look around the league, you see players like Speights playing well but they are limited to 8 minutes a game or something.
I do. You earn your minutes.

beast23
01-16-2009, 12:45 PM
I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.I can't find fault with our offensive philosophy. It's not my preference, but it utilizes the talents of the players we have, especially without a strong post scorer. We are putting up ample points.

But whether we have veterans on the floor or not, one would have to question our defensive schemes. Or, at the very least, our execution of the defensive philosophy.

I have never found our defensive execution to be "excellent" over any prolonged stretch of time, especially against better than average teams "down the stretch". From my perspective, a major problem that we have is that we are unable to get many defensive stops even when we are totally focused and absolutely have to have one.

As for blame, I don't yet know where to place it. We certainly have a lack of talent. But is the philosophy just to complex for our players to consistently execute? Or is it the ability or willingness to execute the philosophy?

But no matter who's fault it is, our defense consistently sucks.

Bball
01-16-2009, 01:00 PM
It just continues to shock me how "developing the young guys" is like a holy grail.

No moreso than the holy grail of making the playoffs with absolutely no chance of making any noise what-so-ever and with a team that will likely have several tweaks, a new system, and a new coach before they ever do make any noise in the playoffs. -Which means the experience argument of being in the playoffs rings fairly hollow to me.

Bball
01-16-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't agree. Name me a player that would have been great if only he had played more. A player like JO might be an example - he got very few minutes in Portland - and yet he wouldn't have been any better in 2003 and 2004 if he had played a little more in Portland. On fact in his case, he would have been injury prone a few years earlier. I see a lot of players develop bad habbits because they are forced to play huge minutes when they aren't ready or get into the bad habbit of losing. See Durrant. Tinsley is also an example of someone who was never forced to aern his minutes - he was given too much too soon.

Who is arguing for huge minutes? I'm just arguing not to glue them to the bench. I'm also saying our pace dictates we -need- the young guys to maintain it (not that I wouldn't be fine with reducing the pace tho).

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 01:07 PM
I fail to see where the system is broken. Our offense was designed in the offseason to revolve around Granger/Dun to dominate the ball, and when we finally get Dun back we abandon the system? Our defense has been much better when we have veterans on the floor, the Pistons win had Ford-Dun-Granger-Murphy-Foster playing excellent defense down the stretch.


You don't see where the system has failed? Maybe you need to checkout the following.

What's the Pacers' record?

What's the average amount of points the Pacers gave up on their recent 5 game out West road trip?

What's the Pacers record when they give up 100 or more points to the opposition?

What is the overall average of points in losses to other teams?

Where is the Pacers ranked in the EC standings? Remember, this is the weaker conference.

Where are the Pacers ranked in their division?

I could continue, but I've made my point. The JO'B system of run n gun helterskelter play of score score score with little "D" is broken/flawed! How many teams has won a championship in the last 10 years using this type of play? How many championships has O'Brien won with his system? That should say it all.

Unclebuck
01-16-2009, 01:09 PM
No moreso than the holy grail of making the playoffs with absolutely no chance of making any noise what-so-ever and with a team that will likely have several tweaks, a new system, and a new coach before they ever do make any noise in the playoffs. -Which means the experience argument of being in the playoffs rings fairly hollow to me.

I've actually said very little about making the playoffs - I think it is highly unlikely that they make the playoffs. I just think that playing to win every game, making players earn their minutes - is the holy grail. This is a competition and anytime you treat it as anything other than that - you get into trouble

Unclebuck
01-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Darko is an example of a player who's confidence was shot by not getting minutes early in his career. Billups and JJ are considered late bloomers, but they too only just needed some stability. Of course, my example is very hard to prove, as players who languish on the bench and have their growth stunted rarely turn out to be good players down the road, as they have too much to make up.

So Darko should have gotten minutes over Sheed, Ben Wallace, Dice, DD - I don't think so. No Darko didn't get minutes because he's not very good, he wasn't then and isn't now -

If a player is good enough he'll get minutes - that is the case around 90%-95% of the time

Unclebuck
01-16-2009, 01:21 PM
There are a couple on this board if they ever lose there job they can become JO'B's pitch/PR man. It's ironical how O'Brien never does anything wrong in their eyes. I'm not for O'Brien being fired, I just want him to change a style of play that isn't working. If something ain't broke don't fix it, but this system is broken, it's obviously broken, so why not eat one's pride and fix it? How hard is that to understand? Or is it that I'm right and I'll force it to prove/show to all I'm right mentality? That's stubborness to the fault of stupidity. I once read on another forum where someone posted "ignorance can be corrected, but stupidity is forever." Come on O'Brien change the current style that is producing loss after loss giving up the points your system is giving up. It just ain't work'n fella.

There is nothing wrong with this defensive system. Maybe you can blame the coaches for not getting the players to play it correctly with the mental and physical toughness necessary - but no matter what system you use if you don't play it aggressively it ain't going to work well

Bball
01-16-2009, 01:22 PM
All season, I've been on Jim's side. I've felt that Jim O'Brien was doing fine for this team because we needed someone to usher in a rebuilding effort. Developing young players, changing the culture, instill professionalism by having these guys playing hard every minute they're on the floor and being prepared for the games in general. I thought that Jim did those things so well, that I over looked some of the things that he doesn't shine at in game, per se.

Now, the word is... We are going to cease giving our young developing guys minutes to make a push for wins. Personally, I feel this is a grave mistake. I'm not calling for our developing guys to get major minutes, but they need consistent minutes instead of just garbage minutes.

I just feel like our teams focus is turning towards one of O'Brien's weaknesses. I guess from here on out, If the focus is not getting our developing players consistent minutes... It is time to hold hold O'Brien accountable for how he manages a game. I personally will start to look at Jim with a more critical eye considering his focus isn't development.

I do not discount the experience a team gets by going to the play-offs. I value that more then the crap-shoot known as the draft. In the end, I'm just afraid that eliminating the developing players minutes is going to get us a team that still finishes in 9th place in the East. To me, that is only a waste!

Good post. About the only difference with me is that my questioning eye didn't come just now as this talk of 'win now' has happened but rather when I felt a line was getting crossed on our lack of defense and not addressing it. First, I thought we did play better D to begin the season. Then it's been a constant slide. Meanwhile, I do think players have gotten confidence in their offensive game and are playing hard. They are just lacking some direction, focus, preaching, coaching, whatever on the the defensive side. At a some point in the recent past that started to need addressed as part of the rebuilding process. Instead, OBrien was complimenting the bad defense and giddy over the Chinese Fire Drill offense.

This felt much like the Phoenix game for me last year where I would've fired OBrien on the spot for allowing Tinsley to run amok like he did with no immediate repercussions. Not only did the team not need Tinsley's antics, the Pacers could ill-afford the PR hit to the dwindling fanbase that we took that night.

Even though there's no clear "Phoenix game" for me to be the line in the sand, I do think we're there. It's time this team focused on their defense. The scoring is there. Maybe we have to sacrifice some of it for the defense. Maybe find a different balance. Whatever... the rebuilding of the offense and confidence is complete (or as far as it needs to go right now). We're not losing because we can't score, we're losing because we cannot stop anyone... and our attempts are failures. Those failures have to be addressed. IMHO we CAN do better... it's just that OBrien is not demanding better.

Bball
01-16-2009, 01:28 PM
I've actually said very little about making the playoffs - I think it is highly unlikely that they make the playoffs. I just think that playing to win every game, making players earn their minutes - is the holy grail. This is a competition and anytime you treat it as anything other than that - you get into trouble

Th funny thing is... I agree with what you just said there. I'm not advocating big minutes to the younger players, but I am advocating minutes. Especially when the vets aren't playing fundamentally sound "D". I'm willing to live with a small amount of error from the young players as they learn and gain experience in structured minutes over seeing the vets play lazy "D". Plus, I think this silly pace demands that the young players get some burn to keep the vets fresh. You can tighten the rotations as the playoffs come up. A team not making the playoffs doesn't generally need to worry about tightening the rotations anytime.

Since86
01-16-2009, 01:28 PM
There is nothing wrong with this defensive system. Maybe you can blame the coaches for not getting the players to play it correctly with the mental and physical toughness necessary - but no matter what system you use if you don't play it aggressively it ain't going to work well


If the system isn't communicated properly, or it can't be done correctly by the players, then the system is wrong.

Basketball games aren't played on paper, or in the minds of what should happen, it's played in reality. If your players can't do it, or you can't effectively coach it, then it needs to be changed to something you can coach, or they can do.

It's a horrible system, because it clearly is not working for this squad.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 02:02 PM
If the system isn't communicated properly, or it can't be done correctly by the players, then the system is wrong.

Basketball games aren't played on paper, or in the minds of what should happen, it's played in reality. If your players can't do it, or you can't effectively coach it, then it needs to be changed to something you can coach, or they can do.

It's a horrible system, because it clearly is not working for this squad.


Thank you for this post!

You more that adequately stated the obvious.... the system is wrong. It NEEDS to be fixed.

The worse part is I don't think it will be fixed. That's sad! After the Utah loss I just decided this season isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. I have to quit letting the losses get to me. Just focus on the team playing better together, get this team to some how learn to play DEFENSE, and get adequate PT for McBob, Hibbert, and Rush to be able to be real contributors next season.

When I thinking about this, the Pacers were the 7th worst team in the league, and I felt these were things if worked on and accomplished would bring about step forward in the right direction for the team next season. BUT if O'Brien doesn't change what's wrong it's not going to happen.

Some of the core rotational players aren't going to be here next year, so if they don't work on these things for the betterment of the players that will they are going to be in the same boat next year bailing out water in order to stay afloat. Bird has to step in and take charge for things to change. If he doesn't, he's giving the green light that everything is fine, and that's a poor GM statement.

flox
01-16-2009, 03:08 PM
You don't see where the system has failed? Maybe you need to checkout the following.

What's the Pacers' record?
14-25, our strength of schedule leads the league at .538, and we have played 5 more road games than home games.


What's the average amount of points the Pacers gave up on their recent 5 game out West road trip?

What's the Pacers record when they give up 100 or more points to the opposition? Not going to bother to look up these.



What is the overall average of points in losses to other teams? for the season our margin is 2.14 points.



Where is the Pacers ranked in the EC standings? Remember, this is the weaker conference.14th, but again, we have had the toughest schedule in the league, we haven't had many home games, and our team has been injured.



Where are the Pacers ranked in their division? Top of my head, last.



I could continue, but I've made my point. The JO'B system of run n gun helterskelter play of score score score with little "D" is broken/flawed! How many teams has won a championship in the last 10 years using this type of play? How many championships has O'Brien won with his system? That should say it all.

No you haven't made your point actually. We have the 16th best offense in the league and 23rd best defense in the league, pace adjusted. This is with two medicore wing defenders and a rash of injuries, the defense will get better. This is also with us playing a poor defensive center for 12 minutes a game, and playing Jack at SF for a few minutes at a time. I am absolutely not worried about our defense, which was ranked I believe 16th last year, pace adjusted.

As for championships, we could play the championship style (grind it out, half court, slow paced game) that the past champs have played, but quite frankly we don't have the players to pull it off. If were playing a halfcourt with straight man, we'd be giving up more points. Dun and Murphy excell in the current defense we have installed.

Since86
01-16-2009, 03:21 PM
14-25, our strength of schedule leads the league at .538, and we have played 5 more road games than home games.

Yeah, and out of those 25 loses, a 1/3 of them have been to horrible teams.

Philly, Chic, Char, Mil, LAC, NJ, Mem, and GS. Win four out of the eight and you're looking at a 18-21 record, which would be a lot more respectable.

Good teams beat bad teams. Bad teams compete with good teams, and lose to other bad teams.


And you're seriously going to follow everything up with "we're the 23rd best defense in the league?" Seriously. Wow what an amazing accomplishment, the Pacers are better than 7 teams defensively. :dance:

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 04:02 PM
No you haven't made your point actually.



Actually, I more than made my point. Just take the blinders off and take a fresh look. All you have given is excuses why this team hasn't produced. It's won 14 games out of 39 and lost to teams it shouldn't have.

Since you don't want to take the time to look things up, (why is that?) I'll do it for you.

The Pacers are averaging giving up 112 points to other teams when losing. That right 112 points.

In the recent 5 game road trip, they gave up an average of 121 points per game. They won 1 out of 5 games resulting in a 20% win rate. That's with Dunleavy playing in some of the games... not the one they won either.

The Pacers started out the season 5-5. At that point, they were only allowing 96.3 points a game to the other team. Yet you don't think anything is broken now that they are allowing 112 points? I don't care how well they are scoring as you pointed out, they are still losing... the other team is out scoring them. Why is that? They play little DEFENSE is the reason why. O'Brien's system is flawed to the point it's broken.

flox
01-16-2009, 04:51 PM
Yeah, and out of those 25 loses, a 1/3 of them have been to horrible teams.

Philly, Chic, Char, Mil, LAC, NJ, Mem, and GS. Win four out of the eight and you're looking at a 18-21 record, which would be a lot more respectable.

Good teams beat bad teams. Bad teams compete with good teams, and lose to other bad teams.


And you're seriously going to follow everything up with "we're the 23rd best defense in the league?" Seriously. Wow what an amazing accomplishment, the Pacers are better than 7 teams defensively. :dance:

Yes, I find that amazing that with the injuries the pacers have, the inability for Rush to learn our system, and the loss of JO, I fully expected our defense to be bottom 3, this is with dunleavy out. The fact that we are 23rd should be an accomplishment. Also, Philly and Mil are two teams better than us, they are playing above what their record indicates.


Actually, I more than made my point. Just take the blinders off and take a fresh look. All you have given is excuses why this team hasn't produced. It's won 14 games out of 39 and lost to teams it shouldn't have.

Since you don't want to take the time to look things up, (why is that?) I'll do it for you.
I knew my usual places didn't have it, and was pretty sure that since you asked those questions, you have those answers. Could I please get some citations so I can add these sites to my regular viewing rotation?




The Pacers are averaging giving up 112 points to other teams when losing. That right 112 points.

In the recent 5 game road trip, they gave up an average of 121 points per game. They won 1 out of 5 games resulting in a 20% win rate. That's with Dunleavy playing in some of the games... not the one they won either.

The Pacers started out the season 5-5. At that point, they were only allowing 96.3 points a game to the other team. Yet you don't think anything is broken now that they are allowing 112 points? I don't care how well they are scoring as you pointed out, they are still losing... the other team is out scoring them. Why is that? They play little DEFENSE is the reason why. O'Brien's system is flawed to the point it's broken.

Yes, I don't think anything is broken at his point. We began the season without Hibbert playing heavy minutes, with a healthy team, and with 5 home games, and 2 games within driving distance. In addition, we played a few slumping teams (Hawks, Philly without brand), as well as NJ before they got good twice, and OKC. I don't take much out of that 10 game stretch.

Then we got hit by injuries,we had to play people like Hibbert, Diener, Jack, extended minutes, which cost us a lot. I really don't think this team's defense is as bad as everyone says it is. It's been getting a lot better ever since we've been getting healthy.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 06:46 PM
I knew my usual places didn't have it, and was pretty sure that since you asked those questions, you have those answers. Could I please get some citations so I can add these sites to my regular viewing rotation?


I'm embarrassed:blush::o b/c I don't have sites for this info. I keep a log on the Pacers games and calculate by it by hand. I know there has to be an easier way, but sometimes one just feels embarrassed to ask. Bottom line is you caught me red handed having to say I keep game records and calculate the info by hand from them. What a pita doing it at times!

flox
01-16-2009, 09:10 PM
I'm embarrassed:blush::o b/c I don't have sites for this info. I keep a log on the Pacers games and calculate by it by hand. I know there has to be an easier way, but sometimes one just feels embarrassed to ask. Bottom line is you caught me red handed having to say I keep game records and calculate the info by hand from them. What a pita doing it at times!

That is very impressive. I should double check the math then. I'll get back to you later.

I think however that tonights game vindicates me a little.unless brandon rush screws it up.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 09:47 PM
That is very impressive. I should double check the math then. I'll get back to you later.

I think however that tonights game vindicates me a little.unless brandon rush screws it up.

Please do I'm not perfect, but I should be real close even if I made a mistake.

How can that be. It ended up the SOS, but with a different ending... although a nice one. The Pacers still gave up over 100 points. That's the "8th" win out of 15 wins that they have given up over 100 points.

Justin Tyme
01-24-2009, 04:54 PM
I wanted to see what others thought, but I din't want to start another O'Brien thread in fear of being chastize. So I decided to put it in this thread.

My question is, What happens if the Pacers don't make the playoffs and there isn't any big improvement the rest of the season? Do the Pacers stay the course with JO'B for another year? I'm not advocating firing him, but as fans are you willing to go another year of the same old thing? Basically, a yes or no answer will surfice. There isn't any inbetweens. It's either or.

Yes = you are willing.

No = you are not willing.

Dece
01-24-2009, 05:00 PM
I'm desperately hoping for some serious roster shakeup. The sooner the better, but if not this year, then during the off season. Whether JOB is here or not, and I think I would prefer not, we can't just keep trucking on with as little talent as we have.

So to keeping on, no, not willing. Not with this roster for sure, even if it is with this coach.

Major Cold
01-24-2009, 07:22 PM
Yeah lets just chuck the roster unlike last year. :rolleyes:

vnzla81
01-24-2009, 09:02 PM
not willing.......:mad:

kester99
01-24-2009, 09:24 PM
I don't think the situation that is the basis of the question is going to happen...BUT, if the Pacers don't make the play-offs or show any signs of improved performance for the rest of the season, then there's a real good chance JOB is gone.

You could count me as no, not willing, but I don't think the circumstances are going to be as you said.

And, once more, our vote doesn't count. What will Bird and the Simons think? That's all that matters.

vnzla81
10-23-2010, 02:57 PM
:bump:

ReggiesUncle
10-23-2010, 02:59 PM
i agree with this thread topic

Hicks
10-23-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm just amazed that there were no posts after January of 2009.

vnzla81
10-23-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm just amazed that there were no posts after January of 2009.

I was looking for the prediction thread and I found this one :D

vnzla81
10-23-2010, 03:20 PM
I am considering a in depth post about why I think JOB is a good coach - and I still might get around to it. Really though I think this is all I need to say. O'Brien is the one who basically cut and got rid of Glenn Robinson while in Philly - he pretty much ended his career. I don't think anything more needs to be said.

Really though the fact that JOB is the primary reason JT isn't playing this season - that is all the evidence I need that O'Brien is an excellent coach. Coach will always have a special place in my heart for ushering Jamaal out the door.

:eek::laugh:

Brad8888
10-23-2010, 07:33 PM
I'm just amazed that there were no posts after January of 2009.

No posts to this thread were necessary.

Probably over half of the threads since that time turned have ultimately turned into a thread about his inadequacies and how they negatively impact virtually every aspect of both the players and the team as well as the resulting financial impact on the franchise because even its occasional good play is irrelevant because it frequently does not come in a winning effort.

Shade
10-23-2010, 08:18 PM
Nothing has changed.

BlueNGold
10-23-2010, 11:08 PM
Nothing has changed.

I almost gave you a thanks for this.

But then I remembered that Troy Murphy is not a Pacer.

Bball
10-23-2010, 11:39 PM
I was looking for the prediction thread and I found this one :D

I'm just wondering if you'd like to change your vote!? :p

vnzla81
10-24-2010, 12:14 AM
I'm just wondering if you'd like to change your vote!? :p

Hell noooooo ;)

Naptown_Seth
10-24-2010, 01:24 PM
I'm just amazed that there were no posts after January of 2009.
Yes, PD was totally devoid of any more Fire JOB discussions after January 2009.
:devil:


OTOH we have Josh getting some level of respect and PT and they appear to be attempting to really center around Roy Hibbert. It only took 2+ years of complaining while development chances fell by the wayside, but it got done.

Why do I think that if the NBA were to change the rules and allow 6 players on the court JOB would continue to field 5 for about 170 games.

DaveP63
10-24-2010, 07:11 PM
The sixth man is irrelevant...

pwee31
10-27-2010, 11:49 PM
:bump:

pwee31
10-27-2010, 11:50 PM
:pullhair: :lynchmob:

vnzla81
10-27-2010, 11:52 PM
:pullhair: :lynchmob:

you? :confused:

pwee31
10-28-2010, 12:00 AM
His Posey decision, and leaving that 2nd unit in so long cost us the game. How you don't have Granger, Hibbert or Collison on the floor is just baffling.

Hansbrough behind Posey on the depth chart has NO logic.

If he could, I'm sure he would trade Darren Collison to New Jersey in order to get Troy Murphy back and think it was a STEAL b/c he was able to keep Posey

vnzla81
10-28-2010, 12:01 AM
:laugh::laugh:

pwee31
11-05-2010, 11:09 PM
:bump:

Got a feeling I'll be doing this all season :rolleyes:

beast23
11-05-2010, 11:20 PM
:bump:

Got a feeling I'll be doing this all season :rolleyes:Earlier, I had posted a reply to one of Peck's posts that I will not give JOB a reprieve.... that I wanted him gone ASAP.

I've changed my mind on that.

I enjoy watching the Pacers when they actually execute the motion offense. Decent motion brings about a good balance between perimeter/3pt., mid-range and close proximity shots.

However, when they abandon the game plan, as much as I want to, I cannot blame any lack of success on the coach. He has provided them with a system of play, at least offensively, that will maximize their performance. I believe they could incorporate more PnR along with their motion offense, but I imagine that is coming.

But until the Pacers can maintain focus and consistenly follow the offensive game plan, JOB earns a reprieve from me.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 11:21 PM
:bump:

Got a feeling I'll be doing this all season :rolleyes:

Just wait two more months

Sandman21
11-06-2010, 01:41 AM
If he's still here at the All Star Break... I'll be shocked.

If only the sponsor that pressured the Jax trade would step up again...... :D

pacers74
11-06-2010, 07:20 AM
What really sucks, for Bird to feel enough pressure to fire him, we would have to go like 2-20 or something crappy like that. If we hover around 500 he will get a pass all season long.:bs:

Eleazar
11-06-2010, 09:37 AM
If anyone knows Bird personal address maybe we can do a mail campaign. If enough people send him angry letters about JOB (not threatening) to his house I'm sure he will get the picture....right?

Brad8888
11-06-2010, 09:59 AM
What really sucks, for Bird to feel enough pressure to fire him, we would have to go like 2-20 or something crappy like that. If we hover around 500 he will get a pass all season long.:bs:

Unfortunately, we won't have to worry about hovering around .500. More unfortunately, he will probably get the same pass all season long that he has for 3+ years now.

I just hope we are patient with the few players we will have left whenever this is over, assuming the franchise survives that long, because they will all have a rough transition when it comes to becoming professional basketball players on a team with a focus on fundamentals.

kielbeze
11-06-2010, 10:01 AM
Maybe this thread should be moved here http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/fan_forum.html

#22
11-06-2010, 10:12 AM
signed

get rid of JOB

BringJackBack
11-06-2010, 10:36 AM
Earlier, I had posted a reply to one of Peck's posts that I will not give JOB a reprieve.... that I wanted him gone ASAP.

I've changed my mind on that.

I enjoy watching the Pacers when they actually execute the motion offense. Decent motion brings about a good balance between perimeter/3pt., mid-range and close proximity shots.

However, when they abandon the game plan, as much as I want to, I cannot blame any lack of success on the coach. He has provided them with a system of play, at least offensively, that will maximize their performance. I believe they could incorporate more PnR along with their motion offense, but I imagine that is coming.

But until the Pacers can maintain focus and consistenly follow the offensive game plan, JOB earns a reprieve from me.


What about Posey, Mike and TJ playing so much?

Mackey_Rose
11-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Earlier, I had posted a reply to one of Peck's posts that I will not give JOB a reprieve.... that I wanted him gone ASAP.

I've changed my mind on that.

I enjoy watching the Pacers when they actually execute the motion offense. Decent motion brings about a good balance between perimeter/3pt., mid-range and close proximity shots.

However, when they abandon the game plan, as much as I want to, I cannot blame any lack of success on the coach. He has provided them with a system of play, at least offensively, that will maximize their performance. I believe they could incorporate more PnR along with their motion offense, but I imagine that is coming.

But until the Pacers can maintain focus and consistenly follow the offensive game plan, JOB earns a reprieve from me.

Why would that earn JOB a reprieve when it is that very game plan that is as much of a problem as anything else right now?

TheDon
11-06-2010, 10:57 AM
I keep hoping that obie one day walks into Bird's office and tells bird that he quits on the grounds that he can't work for anyone that takes him seriously.

grace
11-06-2010, 11:24 AM
I keep hoping that obie one day walks into Bird's office and tells bird that he quits on the grounds that he can't work for anyone that takes him seriously.

:rotflmao:

I was going to say that there needs to be a "Fire Larry Bird" thread because obviously he doesn't know what he'd doing either.

sportfireman
11-06-2010, 12:25 PM
I keep hoping that obie one day walks into Bird's office and tells bird that he quits on the grounds that he can't work for anyone that takes him seriously.

I keep hoping to walk in here and see Obie Fired.....

McKeyFan
11-06-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm reduced to hoping for a military coup or a popular revolt at Conseco.

Sookie
11-06-2010, 12:37 PM
Larry's not going to fire him this season, for financial reasons. As much as I don't like it, I understand. You can't hire a new coach with a lockout looming..and we aren't going to attract a really good new one until Dun and TJ are gone..

beast23
11-06-2010, 12:42 PM
Why would that earn JOB a reprieve when it is that very game plan that is as much of a problem as anything else right now?There is information in the post that might help you.

Before providing an response, please ask yourself two questions:

1. Do you even know what their game plan is or perhaps the method they are using to carry it out?

2. Is the team following that plan from the inial tip-off to the final horn?

I do recognize that there are individual players that may not be living up to the expectations that we have for the ideal player at a particular position. Matter of fact, with that definition, I suppose none of our players are successful. We undoubtedly disagree on who our worst performers are.

But at this point, I am much more concerned with how the TEAM is performing and not so much how INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS are performing. After all, isn't that the most influential indicator of won-loss records?

Shade
11-06-2010, 02:24 PM
It is now 100%, without question, time for Jim to go, before he irreparably destroys our young players. We have made tons of roster changes during his tenure here, but yet, year after year, we see the same mistakes being made, the same flaws being exposed. Jim's system sucks, his rotations suck, and his ability to adapt sucks.

He is exactly the coach I feared he would be from Day 1, and I can't take it anymore.

sportfireman
11-06-2010, 05:59 PM
It is now 100%, without question, time for Jim to go, before he irreparably destroys our young players. We have made tons of roster changes during his tenure here, but yet, year after year, we see the same mistakes being made, the same flaws being exposed. Jim's system sucks, his rotations suck, and his ability to adapt sucks.

He is exactly the coach I feared he would be from Day 1, and I can't take it anymore.

Shade your pic goes great with your post...... Look at the anger.... he looks angry....:mad:

pwee31
12-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Just wait two more months

:bump: One month down :unimpress

cdash
12-13-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm warming up to the idea.

ksuttonjr76
12-13-2010, 10:39 PM
Nope...I'm not ready yet. JOB has grown on me.

Mackey_Rose
12-13-2010, 10:40 PM
The sooner, the better.

Trophy
12-13-2010, 10:42 PM
He's such an idiot and doesn't know how to coach and be fair.

He benches good, young players (Tyler) for old worn out players who can't even play the position (James).

BlueNGold
12-13-2010, 10:43 PM
The sooner, the better.

It will be happening if he keeps playing these rotations and refuses to play AJ Price he will continue to lose.

Against teams like Utah and Chicago, the Pacers need Tyler. The rest of our bigs might as well be women.

Day-V
12-13-2010, 10:51 PM
Co-sign.

Midcoasted
12-13-2010, 10:53 PM
Nope...I'm not ready yet. JOB has grown on me.

:puke::suicide2::suicide::suicide3:

Lance George
12-13-2010, 10:58 PM
If he's still here at the All Star Break... I'll be shocked.

If only the sponsor that pressured the Jax trade would step up again...... :D

If it takes a shooting outside of a strip club to get O'Brien out of here, I say bring on the guns and hos!

Hicks
12-13-2010, 11:01 PM
Wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Trophy
12-13-2010, 11:07 PM
It would be perfect if we fire Jim during this season and we make the playoffs under the new coach.

We've got some good assistants who could probably get the job done. Especially Dan Burke. He's been here for years and knows defense and probably offense.

indypacerfan
12-13-2010, 11:18 PM
This is really getting to be a joke. What exactly did Tyler do to be put in the doghouse? Posey was wrecked tonight because he is playing out of position. Who thinks Posey can guard Carlos Boozer?

Sookie
12-13-2010, 11:20 PM
It will be happening if he keeps playing these rotations and refuses to play AJ Price he will continue to lose.

Against teams like Utah and Chicago, the Pacers need Tyler. The rest of our bigs might as well be women.

I'm glad I continue to get converts to the AJ Price bandwagon :laugh:

Asking JOB to adjust to different teams against certain players..not going to happen very often.

But honestly, it doesn't matter what JOB does, if Granger and Hibbert continue to play poorly, we won't win.

1984
12-13-2010, 11:23 PM
What GOOD could this possibly do right NOW?

Unclebuck
12-13-2010, 11:39 PM
Does he not get any credit for getting this years team to play good defense

1984
12-13-2010, 11:49 PM
Does he not get any credit for getting this years team to play good defense

Well done, James Posey.

Jim deserves credit and criticism. However, a thread calling for his head after twenty-three games is somewhat ridiculous. It would be a disaster if the Pacers removed O'Brien at this juncture. Though, I will admit, I would be intrigued by who the Pacers would replace him with. Perhaps C.K.? Either way -- bad idea.

cdash
12-13-2010, 11:50 PM
Well done, James Posey.

Jim deserves credit and criticism. However, a thread calling for his head after twenty-three games is somewhat ridiculous.

This thread was actually started sometime last year, fwiw.

1984
12-13-2010, 11:53 PM
This thread was actually started sometime last year, fwiw.

Read the posts from today. It paints a picture: A thread calling for his head after twenty-three games is ridiculous.

vnzla81
12-13-2010, 11:53 PM
What GOOD could this possibly do right NOW?

It could do a lot of good........................

vnzla81
12-13-2010, 11:54 PM
Read the posts from today. It paints a picture: A thread calling for his head after twenty-three games is ridiculous.

We have been calling for his head for about two years now, is nothing new

1984
12-13-2010, 11:55 PM
He's such an idiot and doesn't know how to coach and be fair.

He benches good, young players (Tyler) for old worn out players who can't even play the position (James).

I agree that some players have been awarded more than their fair share of playing time. However, James Posey is among the most effective players on the team. His defense alone has been a lift. If you disagree with that statement, then you aren't watching the games.

cdash
12-14-2010, 12:02 AM
Read the posts from today. It paints a picture: A thread calling for his head after twenty-three games is ridiculous.

These people have been calling for his head for a long, long time. Nothing Obie does this year will matter to a segment of the posters here.

1984
12-14-2010, 12:04 AM
It could do a lot of good........................

Dear Pacer Fan,

Be careful what you wish for.

Sincerely,

The Monkey's Paw


Okay, so we fire Jim O'Brien. Now, let's address the big picture. Shall we? [1] Who will coach the Pacers in the here and now? [2] Can the Pacers mentally and physically adjust to a new system before season end? [3] Is J.O.B.'s damage snow-balled because he was re-leased rather than denied a re-newal?

Mackey_Rose
12-14-2010, 12:06 AM
Ask Jerry Jones and his Dallas Cowboys what good it does to wait so long to fire the coach.

1984
12-14-2010, 12:08 AM
Ask Jerry Jones and his Dallas Cowboys what good it does to wait so long to fire the coach.

While you're at it. Ask the Vikings.

vnzla81
12-14-2010, 12:13 AM
Dear Pacer Fan,

Be careful what you wish for.

Sincerely,

The Monkey's Paw


Okay, so we fire Jim O'Brien. Now, let's address the big picture. Shall we? [1] Who will coach the Pacers in the here and now? [2] Can the Pacers mentally and physically adjust to a new system before season end? [3] Is J.O.B.'s damage snow-balled because he was re-leased rather than denied a re-newal?

I don't think we will get any coach to sign for the rest of the year, if you fire Jim his assistant will be the coach and I am OK with that as long as he keeps it simple, this is not rocket science, a coach that could keep a less complicated offense could do wonders with this team, a coach who's priority is not to shoot threes at any cost.

I think Jim already burned every single bridge with this team and IS TIME FOR HIM TO GO.

Mackey_Rose
12-14-2010, 12:13 AM
While you're at it. Ask the Vikings.

With Brad Childress the Vikings were .300

With Leslie Frazier the Vikings are .666

1984
12-14-2010, 12:18 AM
With Brad Childress the Vikings were .300

With Leslie Frazier the Vikings are .666

You're right 2 out of 3 isn't bad. Then again, their wins were against horrible teams like the Skins and the Bills. Let's be honest. You can fire Jim O'Brien and hire the right coach. OR You can fire Jim O'Brien and unleash a grease fire. Which is more likely?

Do you really think the players can mentally and physically adjust to a new system and finish with a better record this season? Do you really think a better alternative is available in the here and now? If so, who? Mike Brown?

Day-V
12-14-2010, 12:33 AM
Do you really think a better alternative is available in the here and now? If so, who? Mike Brown?

I would not be opposed to this. At all.

1984
12-14-2010, 12:43 AM
Do you think they could adjust mid-season?

bballpacen
12-14-2010, 12:45 AM
I would not be opposed to this. At all.
Seconded...

bballpacen
12-14-2010, 12:47 AM
Do you think they could adjust mid-season?
Yes, I think this team as built currently could. If nothing else, they end up not much worse off than they currently are, with a head start going into the next season, whenever that may be...

Day-V
12-14-2010, 01:00 AM
Do you think they could adjust mid-season?

I think just bringing in some new blood would excite the guys enough to at least put out the effort.

(Not saying they haven't been putting out the effort)

oxxo
12-14-2010, 03:20 AM
Almost anyone would be an improvement. JOB's rotations and PT distribution are stupid beyond belief.

Mackey_Rose
12-14-2010, 05:18 AM
You're right 2 out of 3 isn't bad. Then again, their wins were against horrible teams like the Skins and the Bills. Let's be honest. You can fire Jim O'Brien and hire the right coach. OR You can fire Jim O'Brien and unleash a grease fire. Which is more likely?

Do you really think the players can mentally and physically adjust to a new system and finish with a better record this season? Do you really think a better alternative is available in the here and now? If so, who? Mike Brown?

How many of these players have the current system figured out? It apparently takes playing in it three years to figure it out. The only guys who have played in it for three years are Granger, Dunleavy, and Foster. Of those three, Granger is the only one likely to be on the team next season. I think we would be better off making one player adjust to a new system than have to wait years for twelve players to figure this one out.

Mike Brown probably isn't going to come in and save the day mid-season, but that would be fantastic if he would. I think it is more likely you go the interim head coach route with one of the assistants currently on the roster, and then you get somebody like Brown (who I would really like as the next coach) to come in during the summer.

ksuttonjr76
12-14-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm glad I continue to get converts to the AJ Price bandwagon :laugh:

Asking JOB to adjust to different teams against certain players..not going to happen very often.

But honestly, it doesn't matter what JOB does, if Granger and Hibbert continue to play poorly, we won't win.

Hence the reason why I don't want to get rid of JOB. Of course, most people will look right pass that comment. It's ALWAYS JOB's fault with some people on this forum.

Justin Tyme
12-14-2010, 10:19 AM
Hence the reason why I don't want to get rid of JOB. Of course, most people will look right pass that comment. It's ALWAYS JOB's fault with some people on this forum.


BUT why are Granger and Hibbert playing poorly? Isn't it part of the job description of a head coach to get players and keep players playing well? If they can't, why are they coaching? Jimmy can't seem to coach the players Bird gives him, so other than the money owed to Jimmy why is he still the coach when he can't get the players to play?

DGPR
12-14-2010, 10:20 AM
If this team goes anymore below .500 or they fall out of the 8th spot then I EXPECT O'Brien to be fired. We have been lead to believe that this is a playoff team and anything less should result in coaching and philosophy changes.

DaveP63
12-14-2010, 10:24 AM
I agree that some players have been awarded more than their fair share of playing time. However, James Posey is among the most effective players on the team. His defense alone has been a lift. If you disagree with that statement, then you aren't watching the games.

It absolutely has. Right up until the point where he exceeds a certain number of minutes (let's give it an arbitrary number of 15). Then while the D is still decent, the rest of is starts to decline. Dude gets tired and he's entitled to it.

ksuttonjr76
12-14-2010, 10:25 AM
BUT why are Granger and Hibbert playing poorly? Isn't it part of the job description of a head coach to get players and keep players playing well? If they can't, why are they coaching? Jimmy can't seem to coach the players Bird gives him, so other than the money owed to Jimmy why is he still the coach?

So Granger's poor shooting and Hibbert's being bullied around is JOB's fault? Granger knows what he needs to do to get his shooting touch back, and Hibbert needs to show more passion and desire in wanting to dominant the paint. You can't coach that. JOB has already stated that Roy is having a bad season, so hopefully that will light a fire underneath his *ss. JOB (or Bird) has yet to publicly call out Granger. Both players have all the makings of being All-Star/Elite players, but they still lack that "killer instinct" which will take them to the next level.

BillS
12-14-2010, 10:26 AM
BUT why are Granger and Hibbert playing poorly? Isn't it part of the job description of a head coach to get players and keep players playing well?

The coach has to give them <i>opportunities</i> to play well. If the player does not execute when given an open shot, it isn't the coach's fault - how can it be?

You can point to whether the opportunities are or are not sufficient, but don't just look at raw numbers and blame it on the coach. There's a lot of shouting about missed open 3's, which can MAYBE be blamed on JOB's emphasis even with shooters who have no business taking them, but what about the missed open FT-line-extended or top of the key or layups or short face-up jumpers? Players should make those.

Roaming Gnome
12-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Do you really think a better alternative is available in the here and now? If so, who? Mike Brown?
IF, Jim is let go during this season... I can all but assure you an interim off his staff is who you'll see coach till the next time the ball goes up sometime in 2011 or '12 providing the lockout doesn't squander next season.

Remembering Lester Conner... Not all the assistants have to share the same philosophy!

grace
12-14-2010, 10:41 AM
Lately when the coach gets fired the owner makes the GM (or whatever Larry is called) coach the team since he put the mess together in the first place.

ksuttonjr76
12-14-2010, 10:41 AM
The coach has to give them <i>opportunities</i> to play well. If the player does not execute when given an open shot, it isn't the coach's fault - how can it be?

You can point to whether the opportunities are or are not sufficient, but don't just look at raw numbers and blame it on the coach. There's a lot of shouting about missed open 3's, which can MAYBE be blamed on JOB's emphasis even with shooters who have no business taking them, but what about the missed open FT-line-extended or top of the key or layups or short face-up jumpers? Players should make those.

That too. Indiana has attempted 496 FTs for the season, where 1st place attempted 768 FTs. We're 7th in TPG, 7th in FPG, 18th PPG, 18th FG%, and 16th 3PT% . As a team, we need tighten some of those stats up.

90'sNBARocked
12-14-2010, 10:47 AM
I think if you replace Jim after we lose to the Lakers tomorrow and replace him with anybody, you will see a new sense of hope. Its like if at work you have a tyrant for a manager who, no matter how hard you work, is constantly putting you down, you jump for joy when that manager is replaced

I think just by mere default , replacing Jim NOW would benefit the current Pacer squad tremendously.

Seriously, who would want to work for someone who constantly plays mind games , insults you, and on top of that has no winning record and hasn't accomplished ***

I would cut off my pinky if he was fired today. SO yes I don't think anything but good can come from firing his tired azz now

Forget the substitution patterns, the reliance on the proverbial stretch 4, the poor coaching decisions

he is just a complete jerk, and for that alone I will thank God when he moves back to Philly

Hicks
12-14-2010, 11:29 AM
Hence the reason why I don't want to get rid of JOB. Of course, most people will look right pass that comment. It's ALWAYS JOB's fault with some people on this forum.

It's because while Roy and Danny play poorly some nights, it feels like Jim coaches badly on most or all nights.....

Justin Tyme
12-14-2010, 02:38 PM
So Granger's poor shooting and Hibbert's being bullied around is JOB's fault? Granger knows what he needs to do to get his shooting touch back, and Hibbert needs to show more passion and desire in wanting to dominant the paint. You can't coach that. JOB has already stated that Roy is having a bad season, so hopefully that will light a fire underneath his *ss. JOB (or Bird) has yet to publicly call out Granger. Both players have all the makings of being All-Star/Elite players, but they still lack that "killer instinct" which will take them to the next level.


Oh coaches don't coach players on shooting or trying to get a player to be more aggressive? Hum, that's quite interesting. Maybe that's part of Jimmy's problem of coaching. Let's not hold Jimmy to any accountability by not doing part of his job.

With your misguilded view, I guess it isn't part of a teachers job to encourage and help students in areas they have problems in either. Then maybe that's what is part of todays problem with the school system... just have low expections with little to no accountability.

Unclebuck
12-14-2010, 02:45 PM
It's because while Roy and Danny play poorly some nights, it feels like Jim coaches badly on most or all nights.....

I think we would need some type of barometer to measure that. The team is only 1 game under .500 - they did win at Miami and LA. They have played some good ball this season. Goes back to my question, if you are going to blame the coach for certain losses then you have to credit him for certain wins. Either you do both or you do neither. (As I have mentioned dozens of times I don't judge a coach that way, so I don't credit him with the Lakers win or blame him for the Bulls loss last night)

MiaDragon
12-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Hence the reason why I don't want to get rid of JOB. Of course, most people will look right pass that comment. It's ALWAYS JOB's fault with some people on this forum.

Wha? So just because 2 players are slumping we should just forgive the poor job he has done/doing? Please spare me the "he was a good coach with team X" does that help with this team now? His inability to build a system that fits the current rosters talents/limitations is quite apparent, Its almost like he's too proud (and I'm being kind to just use proud) to admit his system just wont work or maybe hes simply not a good enough coach to come up with something better. I have no idea why he's still here and can only hope we have a new leader next season but for now you keep trying to jam that square peg in that round hole JOB. Go Pacers!

grace
12-14-2010, 05:57 PM
It's ALWAYS JOB's fault with some people on this forum.

Not me. I ALWAYS blame Larry Bird.

BlueNGold
12-14-2010, 07:57 PM
Goes back to my question, if you are going to blame the coach for certain losses then you have to credit him for certain wins.

Really, you don't. The team after the recent personnel changes engineered by Larry Bird is improved. Jim has found a way to change the strategy to make the team worse after the first month AND damage chemisty by creating a PG controversy. None of this deserves credit.

With that said, no, I don't think Jim is a bad coach. I really don't, but maybe I should.

cdash
12-14-2010, 08:02 PM
With that said, no, I don't think Jim is a bad coach. I really don't, but maybe I should.

I don't think he is a bad coach either. I think he is a very average NBA coach. Not one of the worst, not one of the best. At this point, I just think he has about run his course with us. I'm more than okay with him finishing the season, but at the end of the season I would like to see us go in a different direction.

pwee31
12-26-2010, 09:40 PM
:bump: Why do I feel like I'll have to do this all season :rolleyes:

PaceBalls
12-26-2010, 09:53 PM
:bump: Why do I feel like I'll have to do this all season :rolleyes:

Well, this thread has been relevant for 3 years now. If any thread deserves a :bump: It is this one.

Mackey_Rose
12-26-2010, 10:00 PM
Every day that he remains employed as the head coach is another day of potential future success wasted.

cdash
12-27-2010, 02:16 AM
I don't think he is a bad coach either. I think he is a very average NBA coach. Not one of the worst, not one of the best. At this point, I just think he has about run his course with us. I'm more than okay with him finishing the season, but at the end of the season I would like to see us go in a different direction.

...**** you!!!

Seriously, is there any chance we axe this guy during the season? Any at all?

Peck
12-27-2010, 02:20 AM
...**** you!!!

Seriously, is there any chance we axe this guy during the season? Any at all?

Nope

1984
12-27-2010, 02:42 PM
All season I have said, "Wait! Don't fire a coach mid-season - it will do more harm than good." I would officially like to retract my statement. I think it would do more harm to continue the status quo.

Mackey_Rose
12-27-2010, 02:51 PM
The sooner, the better.

And so it goes...

sportfireman
12-27-2010, 03:00 PM
Everytime I see this thead I open it hoping to see the coach fired.....:(

BringJackBack
12-27-2010, 03:04 PM
What reaction do you guys think we will see the day that Coach is fired? :laugh:


The good morale will be absolutely off the charts

Unclebuck
12-27-2010, 03:06 PM
For the record, I have no problem firing a coach in midseason. If I become reasonably convinced that Jim has lost the team than I would be in favor of making a change before the end of the season. I do not expect a coaching would help make the Pacers make the playoffs, and after an initial honeymoon period I don't think the team would be any better.

But if it will make this forum enjoyable again, it might be worth it.

cdash
12-27-2010, 04:39 PM
For the record, I have no problem firing a coach in midseason. If I become reasonably convinced that Jim has lost the team than I would be in favor of making a change before the end of the season. I do not expect a coaching would help make the Pacers make the playoffs, and after an initial honeymoon period I don't think the team would be any better.

But if it will make this forum enjoyable again, it might be worth it.

Bingo.

aaronb
12-27-2010, 05:43 PM
The Coach is a glorified babysitter on Most NBA benches. This is a sub .500 team because we have sub .500 talent.

When you only have 2 and a max of 3 guys on the roster, who would be 9 man rotation guys on the Lakers. You don't really have much basis to dump on the coach.

Just saying.

Freddie fan
12-27-2010, 06:08 PM
Aaron, whether you're right or not about the sub .500 talent, that's not the only issue for me. I want a team that takes good shots, takes care of the basketball, plays unselfishly and values each possession, consistently gives good effort on defense and the boards, plays a physical game on both ends of the court, and comes to play hard every night.

You don't need to be one of the more talented teams to play basketball the right way. Even if my team loses, I'll be more satisfied if they played well. The Pacers, even when they win, typically don't play what I'd considered playing well. Except for at the start of the season, they win primarily when they shoot well, which overcomes subpar play in a number of other areas. Jim O'Brien, in my opinion, doesn't do enough to push his team to play well in a number of the most fundamental areas, judging by the way he distributes playing time and by the things he emphasizes in his public comments about the team and its individual players.

aaronb
12-27-2010, 06:51 PM
Aaron, whether you're right or not about the sub .500 talent, that's not the only issue for me. I want a team that takes good shots, takes care of the basketball, plays unselfishly and values each possession, consistently gives good effort on defense and the boards, plays a physical game on both ends of the court, and comes to play hard every night.

You don't need to be one of the more talented teams to play basketball the right way. Even if my team loses, I'll be more satisfied if they played well. The Pacers, even when they win, typically don't play what I'd considered playing well. Except for at the start of the season, they win primarily when they shoot well, which overcomes subpar play in a number of other areas. Jim O'Brien, in my opinion, doesn't do enough to push his team to play well in a number of the most fundamental areas, judging by the way he distributes playing time and by the things he emphasizes in his public comments about the team and its individual players.


I'm not a JOB fan in any way. I just think people use him as a scapegoat instead of being honest about the state of the roster.

BringJackBack
12-27-2010, 06:55 PM
I think that JOB is a very average coach who gets the best out of his players and makes young players push themselves. A disciplinarian.

That said, he's a terrible fit for our players. He has Danny in the Paul Pierce/AI role and he simply doesn't have the creating ability to do that, he has Darren and TJ not playing to their strengths, he has succesfully turned Josh McRoberts into Troy Murphy, and he keeps our best subs inactive because he'd rather have a decent player, like Posey, that fits what he's trying to do than a good player, like Tyler ,that doesn't fit what JOB is trying to accomplish.

It is time for someone to coach this team that can keep Danny off-the-ball for the most part, put the damn ball in Darren Collison's hands, let power forwards play a power game, and quit letting Roy shoot jumpshots.

oxxo
12-28-2010, 12:01 AM
The Coach is a glorified babysitter on Most NBA benches. This is a sub .500 team because we have sub .500 talent.

When you only have 2 and a max of 3 guys on the roster, who would be 9 man rotation guys on the Lakers. You don't really have much basis to dump on the coach.

Just saying.

The coach does not have as much impact as in college and lower levels true, but to say they have none at all is stretching it. They do have a huge impact in rotations and as a 'manager' or 'HR' type role. The truth is JOB sucks hardcore at those things, which is exactly what an NBA coach needs to be good at.

We don't KNOW if our talent is sub .500 or not because JOB jerks players around with starts and playing time and doesn't play our talent. It's pretty obvious that he's playing vets regardless of whether or not the young talent is better or not. There's also the issue where he plays players out of position and not to their strengths (Posey at 4, McRoberts as a 'stretch' 4).

So basically, yes a coach doesn't have as great of an positive impact as talent does in the NBA, but they have plenty of opportunity to have a significant impact... which JOB definitely does.

You don't see Jackson or Popovich changing their starting lineup every game or suddenly cutting players minutes all the time. You don't see them trying to put players out of position in an attempt to be 'smart' (or something).

JOB sucks plain and simple. When we played the lineups and minutes that everyone here wants (and common sense dictates) you could see that we were definitely over a .500 team.

Really?
12-28-2010, 12:18 AM
Maybe he will resign, lol... not that he is a super bad coach... but whatever he is doing here is not working obviously so we need to bring in someone new...

PLAN AND SIMPLE

We have a young team and we need a good coach to motivate them and teach them while they are young with a bunch of potential... not sure who would be able to do this but umm we need someone... maybe coach Cal or something, lol

Unclebuck
12-28-2010, 12:28 AM
Aaron, whether you're right or not about the sub .500 talent, that's not the only issue for me. I want a team that takes good shots, takes care of the basketball, plays unselfishly and values each possession, consistently gives good effort on defense and the boards, plays a physical game on both ends of the court, and comes to play hard every night.



I think we all want those things. The arguments will come in whether the coach is responsible for them doing them or not doing them, and to what degree the pacers excel at those things

1) Takes good shots. D
2) takes care of the ball. B-
3) plays unselfishly. A
4) Values each possession B-
5) Good effort on defense - this season I give them an. A
6) Good effort on boards.. B
7) physical game on both ends. B
8) Comes to play hard every night. This season B+

Only major problem I see is shot selection. But also the players don't trust the offense - I would give them a D for that. They get impatient and they try to do things on their own when things start to go bad - I dont consider that selfishness though.


wow, that felt good to not discuss Jim O'Brien

pacer4ever
12-28-2010, 12:56 AM
I'm not a JOB fan in any way. I just think people use him as a scapegoat instead of being honest about the state of the roster.

i agree that our roster isnt very good and needs to get a lot better. but JOB needs to go. But im sure in a few yrs we will have the same convo with the new coach. Coaches always get the blame

cdash
12-28-2010, 01:07 AM
At least he is better than Tom Crean.

Bball
12-28-2010, 03:38 AM
For the record, I have no problem firing a coach in midseason. If I become reasonably convinced that Jim has lost the team than I would be in favor of making a change before the end of the season. I do not expect a coaching would help make the Pacers make the playoffs, and after an initial honeymoon period I don't think the team would be any better.

But if it will make this forum enjoyable again, it might be worth it.

The problem is that O'Brien is the 800lb gorilla sitting in the living room. You cannot talk Pacer basketball with O'Brien taken out of the equation.

Some people are arguing that most NBA coaches are glorified baby-sitters or figureheads rolling the balls out to start practice and letting the players do their thing. Well, that's not O'Brien. He's anything but that. His fingerprints are all over this team. His idea of how to space the floor cannot be overlooked. His acceptance of 'settling for the 3' cannot be overlooked (what most basketball purists would see as settling for a 3 is something that O'Brien apparently sees as a necessarily (evil?) part of his design). His contradictions cannot be overlooked.

I can agree that it would be more enjoyable to discuss Pacer basketball on this forum if Jim O'Brien was fired. ....But then again... Pacer basketball would be more enjoyable if O'Brien was fired!

cordobes
12-28-2010, 08:48 AM
Aaron, whether you're right or not about the sub .500 talent, that's not the only issue for me. I want a team that takes good shots, takes care of the basketball, plays unselfishly and values each possession, consistently gives good effort on defense and the boards, plays a physical game on both ends of the court, and comes to play hard every night.

Doubtful. Can you point out a single team with sub .500 talent that does all those things?


You don't need to be one of the more talented teams to play basketball the right way.

What exactly is the right way of playing basketball?

Brad8888
12-28-2010, 09:40 AM
Doubtful. Can you point out a single team with sub .500 talent that does all those things?



What exactly is the right way of playing basketball?

Pretty much take the methods that O'Brien subscribes to offensively and reverse those.

Structure the offense more frequently unless you have elite talent.

Save energy to play better defense by slowing down the offense, using defense to create offensive opportunities.

Play bigs in positions on the floor that maximize their rebounding potential and allow them to work off of one another in low post scoring situations.

Use bigs in the high post only sparingly.

Shoot about 15 to 18 3's per game instead of 20 or more, and stop shooting them if it becomes clear that the players legs aren't giving them lift on their shots.

Drive to the basket, backcut, or shoot midrange jumpers off of ball and player movement more frequently.

cordobes
12-28-2010, 09:54 AM
Is that the right way of playing basketball or merely your favourite way?

Which winning teams in the history of the league played basketball the right way?

aaronb
12-28-2010, 10:57 AM
Pretty much take the methods that O'Brien subscribes to offensively and reverse those.

Structure the offense more frequently unless you have elite talent.

Save energy to play better defense by slowing down the offense, using defense to create offensive opportunities.

Play bigs in positions on the floor that maximize their rebounding potential and allow them to work off of one another in low post scoring situations.

Use bigs in the high post only sparingly.

Shoot about 15 to 18 3's per game instead of 20 or more, and stop shooting them if it becomes clear that the players legs aren't giving them lift on their shots.

Drive to the basket, backcut, or shoot midrange jumpers off of ball and player movement more frequently.


Have to disagree with you about "slowing the offense down" here.

This roster is definitely better suited for an uptempo game. We really don't have a wing on the roster who can get his own shot. Especially off the dribble. Our rebounding and physical inside presence is also really weak.

Unless the plan is to feed Hibbert for 25 shots per game. I think you need to try and run and hope for the best.

Bball
12-28-2010, 11:10 AM
I totally disagree that you speed up the game to overcome a talent deficit. That, to me, is a recipe for inconsistency and losing more than you win. Let alone never going to pay long term results.

aaronb
12-28-2010, 11:17 AM
I totally disagree that you speed up the game to overcome a talent deficit. That, to me, is a recipe for inconsistency and losing more than you win. Let alone never going to pay long term results.


I'm not saying speed up the game to overcome a talent shortage. I say you speed up the game because the guys on this roster are better suited for running (except for Hibbert).

To play effective half court you need.

1. Strong post presence offensively (which Hibbert provides adequately)
2. Strong team rebounding (which we DON"T have)
3. A PG who can feed the post and run half court (Which we really don't have)
4. A wing player who can dribble drive to get his shot whenever (Which we don't have)
5. Someone else who can lurk on the perimeter for the kickout jumper (which we have in abundance)

So basically we have 2 of the 5 components of a successful 1/2 court team. That's why we run.

Bball
12-28-2010, 11:29 AM
The last thing I see when looking at this team is a team that needs to run. I see a team that needs some structure in its offense, better positioning for rebounding purposes, and less 'bad' shots that are leading to transition baskets or at best wasted offensive possessions because nobody was in position for the offensive rebound/tip.

colts19
12-28-2010, 12:31 PM
1) Takes good shots. D
2) takes care of the ball. B- 3) plays unselfishly. A
4) Values each possession B-
5) Good effort on defense - this season I give them an. A
6) Good effort on boards.. B
7) physical game on both ends. B
8) Comes to play hard every night. This season B+
Only major problem I see is shot selection. But also the players don't trust the offense - I would give them a D for that. They get impatient and they try to do things on their own when things start to go bad - I dont consider that selfishness though.

Unclebuck, I enjoy your post, but I have to disagree with this. Going by your grades we are above average in every area but 1. How can that be with the record we have. 1. F we take horrible shots. 2. D, It not the number of turnovers as much as how careless they are. 3. A, agree 4. F, we don't value possession's at all. 5. B, good not great effort. 6, D, our rebound effort is poor at best. 7. C, better than in the past but getting worse as season goes on. 8. C, same thing getting worse as season goes on.

This team needs to decide what they are. I thought that was happening at the beginning of the year. We were being physical and using our athletic ability. But now we are one thing for 5 mins of the game and then something else the next 5 mins.

I too would be very glad not to talk about Jim Obrien. Make it Happen Larry.

Sookie
12-28-2010, 01:26 PM
Also, and this hasn't been mentioned much.

Jim is known for his hard and constant practices. And we depend on the three. Well isn't he just creating tired legs? And tired legs = short shots.

graphic-er
12-28-2010, 04:24 PM
Perhaps there needs to be a fire Jim OBrien rally in the Fieldhouse Lobby During the next home game, and hold the Rally all throughout the game. I wonder how many people would come out and not go to the game only to hang out in the lobby? Or how many ticket holders would abstain from watching the game and rally in the lobby?

pathil275
12-28-2010, 05:17 PM
He has to go! At the risk of repeating myself, I say again that you don't win with a "stretch power forward". We played a pretty good ball in the first ~20 games with McRoberts starting. Conventional, hard-nosed basketball with solid, tough defense, ball-movement, and an inside-out offense. The vibe between Hibbert and McRoberts was obvious, especially on the defensive end of the court. Then JOB started to install Posey at the 4. While he is not starting yet, that doesn't mean that he isn't getting a good portion of the minutes. I mean I do like Posey, I admit that his veteran presence is good for the team and for stretches I dig his ability to make three point shots, but at the same time he seldom stand his ground on the defensive end and that is what pisses me off more than anything - the good games in the first 1/4 of the season were based on a great defensive performance and not on "spreading the floor" offensively.

So, get back to the defense first approach, play deliberately and patiently in the offense and make it hard for opponents to score on you

Side note: JOB is as pathetic as a coach as GOB is as a magician in Arrested Development. No offense, just watching that series, so funny..

Unclebuck
12-28-2010, 11:41 PM
1
Unclebuck, I enjoy your post, but I have to disagree with this. Going by your grades we are above average in every area but 1. How can that be with the record we have. 1. F we take horrible shots. 2. D, It not the number of turnovers as much as how careless they are. 3. A, agree 4. F, we don't value possession's at all. 5. B, good not great effort. 6, D, our rebound effort is poor at best. 7. C, better than in the past but getting worse as season goes on. 8. C, same thing getting worse as season goes on.



Because there are other things that decide wins and losses that are not on the list - the biggest one being talent, ability to score......ability to get to the free throw line. I very bad team could get an A in everyone of those categores and still have a 12-70 record because of a lack of talent

pwee31
12-28-2010, 11:56 PM
Hey... I didn't have to bump this thread tonight... what gives :confused: :devil:

CableKC
12-29-2010, 12:11 AM
Fire JO'B, sure...why not?

It could and most likely will help at least point this ship in another direction...but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the roster was average at best.

But maybe the reality is that we're just not a good Team and that we are losing because of that. Add in whatever JO'B is doing ( both good and bad ) and we have what we have been seeing for the last 4 seasons.

oxxo
12-29-2010, 01:32 AM
Why do people keep talking about talent or lack of talent. The fact is we have no idea what we have because JOB insists on playing vets no matter how (in)effective they are.

ANY other team, and I'm not exaggerating when I say ANY, would be playing their young players and would know by now how good they are, their strengths/weaknesses, and their upside. We have no clue because JOB keeps them inactive sitting on the bench.

That, and his ridiculous shuffling of minutes/starts (matchups, lol), is why he completely sucks as a coach.

cdash
12-29-2010, 02:00 AM
ANY other team, and I'm not exaggerating when I say ANY, would be playing their young players and would know by now how good they are, their strengths/weaknesses, and their upside. We have no clue because JOB keeps them inactive sitting on the bench.

No, that would not be the case. There's a reason every single fanbase *****es about their coach not playing the young guys. You may want to believe it is an isolated incident, but it's not.

Unclebuck
12-29-2010, 09:10 AM
If the pacers are goin to fire O'Brien - Monday is a good day to do it. Pacers play Sunday and then not again until Friday

Pacergeek
12-29-2010, 09:51 AM
i think we should take a page from the Texans fans, and have a rally voicing our displeasure in public. Still don't think it would be enough though. JOB must have some dirt on the Simons and/or Bird. Why else is he still here?

colts19
12-29-2010, 10:40 AM
Because there are other things that decide wins and losses that are not on the list - the biggest one being talent, ability to score......ability to get to the free throw line. I very bad team could get an A in everyone of those categores and still have a 12-70 record because of a lack of talent

Again I disagree, if we were as good in those area as you say, it would be because we have talent. Can't have it both ways.

flox
12-29-2010, 10:56 AM
Again I disagree, if we were as good in those area as you say, it would be because we have talent. Can't have it both ways.

I'm sure a team of Matt Bonner, Chris Quinn, Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver, and Illyasova can give you a team with A 3pt shooting, A effort on defense, A valuing possessions, etc, and that team would win maybe 10 games all season.

Justin Tyme
12-29-2010, 11:24 AM
If the pacers are goin to fire O'Brien - Monday is a good day to do it. Pacers play Sunday and then not again until Friday


You got some inside info? J/K

Or Jimmy might want to take that time, if he isn't fired, and work on some basics.

How about working on getting a better inside game so his love for his outside game works.

How about working on rebounding, boxing out, etc.

Setting of picks can definately use some work.

Emphasizing MOVEMENT and not standing around at the arch waiting on someone to pass them the ball.

Work on Hibbert to speed up his moves once he gets the ball, and how to pass it out of a double team since he's slow in making a move.

Teaching the players the value of each possession and how their sloppy play kills so many possessions.

Concentrating having players shoot 3's isn't what I consider a basic part of BB.

Just in case it has escaped the notice of the FO and ownership, at 13-16 this team is IN THE LOTTERY with 4 teams within 3 games behind ready to push them out of the playoffs. If they aren't going to change coaches, maybe they should consider having their coach try a different coaching method that doesn't "emphasize shooting 3's" as the basis for playing BB. That novel idea seems to work for other coaches.

Justin Tyme
12-29-2010, 11:32 AM
i think we should take a page from the Texans fans, and have a rally voicing our displeasure in public. Still don't think it would be enough though. JOB must have some dirt on the Simons and/or Bird. Why else is he still here?


B/c they stated earlier they are pleased with how things were going. When this team gets 6-7 games under .500 and out of the playoff 8, maybe they will want to re-think their stance on how pleased they are.

oxxo
12-29-2010, 12:12 PM
No, that would not be the case. There's a reason every single fanbase *****es about their coach not playing the young guys. You may want to believe it is an isolated incident, but it's not.

Of course every fanbase complains about their coach, but no other lottery/.500 team insists on playing their mediocre vets over their lottery picks just because the coach is insane... or that coach was fired long ago.

Blair, Splitter, Gay, Love, Beasley, Jennings, Curry, Bogut, Bargnani, and countless other young players have gotten plenty of playing time during their rookie/sophomore teams, on both rebuilding teams and contenders. Why can't PG get garbage time when we're blowing out a team or when we're getting destroyed? Why is JOB going with stupid lineups like Ford/Dun/Granger/Posey/Foster?

I could go on about the countless other teams that DO give their young guys AT LEAST garbage minutes. That's one of the most maddening things about JOB. He's playing VETS during garbage time.

I follow the NBA pretty hardcore and I honestly can't think of any team in recent memory that has the messed up rotations and PT that we do. Of course I could be wrong.

Mackey_Rose
12-29-2010, 12:16 PM
If the pacers are goin to fire O'Brien - Monday is a good day to do it. Pacers play Sunday and then not again until Friday

Wednesday, December 29, 2010 sounds like a fine day to me.

oxxo
12-29-2010, 12:20 PM
Wednesday, December 29, 2010 sounds like a fine day to me.

Dec 31 @ 11:59 PM? To ring in the new year? :buddies:

colts19
12-29-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm sure a team of Matt Bonner, Chris Quinn, Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver, and Illyasova can give you a team with A 3pt shooting, A effort on defense, A valuing possessions, etc, and that team would win maybe 10 games all season.

At least that team would have an identity and know who they were.

Hicks
12-29-2010, 12:25 PM
If the pacers are goin to fire O'Brien - Monday is a good day to do it. Pacers play Sunday and then not again until Friday

I'm not falling for it; you can't get my hopes up now. :-p

cdash
12-29-2010, 12:31 PM
Of course every fanbase complains about their coach, but no other lottery/.500 team insists on playing their mediocre vets over their lottery picks just because the coach is insane... or that coach was fired long ago.

Blair, Splitter, Gay, Love, Beasley, Jennings, Curry, Bogut, Bargnani, and countless other young players have gotten plenty of playing time during their rookie/sophomore teams, on both rebuilding teams and contenders. Why can't PG get garbage time when we're blowing out a team or when we're getting destroyed? Why is JOB going with stupid lineups like Ford/Dun/Granger/Posey/Foster?

I could go on about the countless other teams that DO give their young guys AT LEAST garbage minutes. That's one of the most maddening things about JOB. He's playing VETS during garbage time.

I follow the NBA pretty hardcore and I honestly can't think of any team in recent memory that has the messed up rotations and PT that we do. Of course I could be wrong.

Yes, they do. Hell Kurt Rambis was doing it in Minnesota this season. And Kevin Love is a hell of a lot better than anyone on our team who isn't getting PT. Coaches almost always prefer playing veterans over young guys. JOB is certainly not alone on that front.

All those guys you listed as getting PT--they are all leaps and bounds ahead of where Paul George is right now.

Peck
12-29-2010, 12:33 PM
Yes, they do. Hell Kurt Rambis was doing it in Minnesota this season. And Kevin Love is a hell of a lot better than anyone on our team who isn't getting PT. Coaches almost always prefer playing veterans over young guys. JOB is certainly not alone on that front.

All those guys you listed as getting PT--they are all leaps and bounds ahead of where Paul George is right now.

Not that I disagree with you, but how do you know this? It couldn't be from watching his development from the court, so are you privy to the practice sessions?

Mackey_Rose
12-29-2010, 12:37 PM
At least that team would have an idenity and know who they were.

That team would force JOB to bring several changes of underwear to every game, if he was their coach.

cordobes
12-29-2010, 06:27 PM
Of course every fanbase complains about their coach, but no other lottery/.500 team insists on playing their mediocre vets over their lottery picks just because the coach is insane... or that coach was fired long ago.


Let's just exclude contenders and include any team that is lottery/around .500/candidate to a playoff run.


Atlanta

It's funny, I just read this awhile ago. I think you'll find it amusing, as I did:

Michael Cunningham of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: (http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2010/12/28/atlanta-hawks-on-drew-and-teague/?cxntfid=blogs_hawks)


As an organization the Hawks talked all summer about the importance of Jeff Teague becoming a major contributor. Then he got hurt in training camp and fell behind. It seems he’s been playing catch-up ever since and hasn’t always been afforded the opportunity to work his way through rough stretches or rewarded for his good performances. Certainly Larry Drew has given Teague more opportunities than his predecessor on the bench. But I think a fair interpretation of events is that, despite Drew’s stated desire to mold the Hawks into a defensive team and develop his young players, his decisions in this matter reflect a different tact. (Shoot, it makes me wonder how willing he’d be to stick with the promising 'big' lineup if Jason Collins were a young guy. Would it just mean more Etan Thomas?) Since Drew's actions with Teague don’t always match his words, I can only conclude that he is reluctant to reduce minutes for his two veteran 'shotmakers' with defensive deficiencies for the sake of finding more playing time for his most physically-gifted perimeter defender.

It's amazing how similar it is to the claims about O'Brien not developing young players and using veterans ahead of them and how he says one thing and does the opposite, isn't it?

Anyway, forget Teague. First round pick Jordan Crawford has played 100 minutes this season. They're playing Mo Evans and... Damien Wilkins (!!!) ahead of him. When Joe Johnson was injured, Wilkins actually played big minutes in a couple of games. They actually signed Wilkins for that purpose. And it doesn't get much crappier than Damien Wilkins. THe other rookie, Pape Sy? He's yet to see a single second of NBA action.

-----------------

New York Knicks

D'Antoni's dislike for young players is well documented. So even though they don't have many veterans, it's no surprise that journeyman Ronny Turiaf has beaten high potential prospects like Mozgov and Randolph for playing time, that Shawne Williams is playing ahead of Bill Walker and that Roger Mason has got more minutes than Andy Rautins.


Milwaukee Bucks

They don't really have any young players because they just get rid of them in the first place. They cut Tiny Gallon and already during the season waived rookie Darington Hobson to sign.. Brian Skinner. Larry Sanders played 330 minutes so far thanks to the injuries, but he was out of the rotation when the squad was healthy. Expect him to go back to the bench/inactive list once they're in full force again.

Philadelphia 76ers

2nd overall pick Turner is on the bench. Andres Nocioni plays more than Speights. They're starting Elton Brand and playing him heavy minutes. To open minutes to Nocioni and Tony Battie, they sent Craig Brackins to the D-League.

Toronto Raptors

This one is easy: Reggie Evans - starter; Ed Davis, lottery pick - D-League. They were playing David Andersen over Julian Wright too. Ah, and over Solomon Alabi, D-League for him too.


Charlotte Bobcats

Larry Brown rarely plays rookies, no surprise we haven't heard much about Sherron Collins - he's playing in the D-League too. Veteran Dominic McGuire got the nod over 2nd year Gerald Henderson.

Detroit Pistons

Monroe was nailed to the bench in favour of Charles Villanueva, Ben Wallace and Jason Maxiell. DaJuan Summers collects DNPs and plays garbage minutes. Tracy McGrady averaged almost 20 mpg in December. Hamilton and Prince keep getting big minutes. 36 years old Ben Wallace has now played the double of the minutes that the 15th overall pick Austin Daye got (729 vs. 336). I watched their last game: even Chris Wilcox played more than Daye or Monroe.

New Jersey Nets

Quinton Ross over Terrence Williams is very explanatory. Kris Humphries starts over Larry Summers. The other rookie, Ben Uzoh, has played 80 minutes. Even Sasha Vujacic, who arrived like one week ago, has already played more.

Cleveland Cavaliers

A team filled with veterans and some well in their 30s - Jamison, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Anderson Varejão.

First round pick Christian Eyenga? Hasn't even played a single minute! He's in the D-League. Manny Harris? 105 minutes played, all in garbage time. Samardo Samuels? D-League.

Washington Wizards

First round pick Kevin Seraphin has played 120 minutes, mostly of garbage time. Fellow rookie Hamady Ndyaye played 4 minutes. Even the relatively young Alonzo Gee was barely used - 127 minutes and then cut. Who's playing more than these guys? Hilton Armstrong. Trevor Booker got some burn early on, but now he's sitting down to open minutes to Josh Howard (a 30 years old in a 1 year contract), Rashard Lewis and Al Thornton.

........

I'll do the Western Conference later on... but don't expect to see different things.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I did this exercise last season too. Does anyone know if that post can be found? (actually the first time I did it was in another board and was about... Doc Rivers. Most Celtics fans were irked with Doc because he wasn't playing Rondo enough and didn't like rookies, etc).

BlueNGold
12-29-2010, 08:33 PM
There are many, many players that fans know are better than the alternative on the floor, but the alternative plays anyway. There are reasons for this and they have nothing to do with basketball and a lot to do with money or what the team has decided is the "big picture".

So many people seem completely oblivious to the business aspects of the NBA, the pecking order in the locker room in terms of salary, the relationship issues. The NBA is not exactly like the business world, but this is not the pure days of 1965 Indiana high school basketball folks.

cdash
12-29-2010, 08:46 PM
Not that I disagree with you, but how do you know this? It couldn't be from watching his development from the court, so are you privy to the practice sessions?

I assume you watched his deer in headlights routine when he played earlier this season. All the evidence I need. If you like to replace "leaps and bounds", I won't argue too much. Plus, those guys he listed are pretty established guys.

Doddage
12-29-2010, 09:31 PM
I love how we picked up JOB's option last season.

aaronb
12-29-2010, 09:42 PM
I love how we picked up JOB's option last season.

I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

travmil
12-29-2010, 09:57 PM
I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

Is this supposed to be green font? I don't care if John Wooden was coaching this team, there isn't 60 wins in any combination of the players on this roster. I doubt if there's even 50 wins there.

aaronb
12-29-2010, 10:08 PM
Is this supposed to be green font? I don't care if John Wooden was coaching this team, there isn't 60 wins in any combination of the players on this roster. I doubt if there's even 50 wins there.

Green font

oxxo
12-31-2010, 12:13 AM
Let's just exclude contenders and include any team that is lottery/around .500/candidate to a playoff run.


Actually, I'm pretty sure I did this exercise last season too. Does anyone know if that post can be found? (actually the first time I did it was in another board and was about... Doc Rivers. Most Celtics fans were irked with Doc because he wasn't playing Rondo enough and didn't like rookies, etc).

Of course every team plays some vets over rookies. That's a given. We aren't playing our LOTTERY guys or guys that have shown potential (Price) and instead give garbage time to the vets and play Posey out of position at the 4.

None of the teams listed are comparable to what we are seeing from JOB.

---

Rondo had 25 starts and played ~24 minutes a game as a rookie.

Milwaukee Bucks - Played Jennings, Bogut, Mbah a Moute, and even Joe Alexander plenty of minutes in their 1st/2nd year.

Philadelphia 76ers - Turner is getting 24 minutes a game...

Toronto Raptors - Ed Davis is playing now. Reggie Evans had one of the, if not the highest, rebounding rates in the league. Bargani had 25 and 23 minutes a game his first two years, even though back then people were questioning whether or not he was a bust.

Charlotte Bobcats - Agreed. LB is gone now though, and young guys *seem* to be getting the PT now.

Detroit Pistons - Charlie V and Maxiell are neither old nor worse than our youngs. Hamilton and Prince, while they've dropped off, are nothing like playing Posey or Dun like we do. I do agree that they're being pretty stupid not playing their young guys more... since they're obviously far from contending.

New Jersey Nets - Terrence Williams had maturity issues and problems with the coach. Not sure who Larry Summers is... I've never heard of him and I can't find him anywhere. Ben Uzoh was undrafted and on a partially guaranteed contract...

Cleveland Cavaliers - Christian Eyenga is one of those overseas project guys like Lorbek. Manny Harris was signed as an undrafted rookie. Samardo Samuels is another undrafted guy on a partially guaranteed contract.

Washington Wizards - Kevin Seraphin is behind a 24 year old (Blatche) who has shown plenty of potential and shared garbage minutes with Yi and Booker, who are both young. Hamady Ndyaye is a 2nd round 'potential' pick and is behind 22 and 26 year old. Alonzo Gee was undrafted. The others are behind vets yes, but it's the young guys who get the PT and the starts. No one (including myself) said ONLY young guys should get PT, esp 2nd rounders and undrafted guys.

Hoop
12-31-2010, 03:02 AM
I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

:jawdrop:
Holy cow, JOB is worse than I thought, and that's really saying something.

pacer4ever
12-31-2010, 01:34 PM
I wish Larry Bird was able to coach this team. We've got 60-65 win talent on this roster.

can i get what ur smoking must be some good ****

xBulletproof
12-31-2010, 09:49 PM
can i get what ur smoking must be some good ****

He's being sarcastic, because he thinks that's how most people feel here.

BringJackBack
01-02-2011, 03:29 PM
:bump:


:birdobrien:

pwee31
01-02-2011, 03:37 PM
:banghead:

pianoman
01-02-2011, 03:39 PM
FIRE OBRIEN!! GOD, AT THIS POINT, I'D RATHER HAVE THOMAS BACK AS COACH..

Sandman21
01-02-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm officially offering my services as an interim head coach for the Pacers.

Under my proposed system, the "stretch" 4 would be GONE, the team would be coached towards attacking the basket instead of Jack-up-a-3. Our younger players would receive more playing time immediately. Posey and Foster would be used more for mentors than nightly contributors.

I have no coaching experience, and my last basketball experience was doing color commentary for the Ben Davis Giants basketball team 5 years ago. I still think I can do better than the idiot we have now.

Best of all, I'll work for the league minimum. Let's make this happen:

SANDMAN (or Vogel) FOR COACH TODAY!

Hoop
01-02-2011, 03:49 PM
Holy freaking ****, fire his worthless @ss, I can't take it anymore. FU JOB, Just FU!

I'll take Isiah, with Dick Versace and George Irving as his assistants at this point. Sadly I'm not even kidding.

Eleazar
01-02-2011, 04:09 PM
There are many, many players that fans know are better than the alternative on the floor, but the alternative plays anyway. There are reasons for this and they have nothing to do with basketball and a lot to do with money or what the team has decided is the "big picture".

So many people seem completely oblivious to the business aspects of the NBA, the pecking order in the locker room in terms of salary, the relationship issues. The NBA is not exactly like the business world, but this is not the pure days of 1965 Indiana high school basketball folks.

The problem with that is that it is illogical, especially when many of those more expensive players are in the final year of their contract. Just because a player makes $5 million more doesn't mean they should play. No matter if they play or not they are still going to make that money, so why play them? Why not play the better player? When someone plays because of money it has nothing to do with business and everything to do with ego, and not willing to admit to making a mistake. It is one thing to say these guys are our future they need to be playing, that is business, and smart business. Playing a guy because he makes more has nothing to do with business. The only excuse for that is to hope that he can be traded, which can be done with limited time.

BlueNGold
01-02-2011, 05:53 PM
The problem with that is that it is illogical, especially when many of those more expensive players are in the final year of their contract.


A player in the final year of a contract is a player motivated to play well for their next deal. This is not the reason they are played, but it doesn't hurt.




Just because a player makes $5 million more doesn't mean they should play. No matter if they play or not they are still going to make that money, so why play them? Why not play the better player?



This is the part a lot of people don't get. Especially young people with limited experience in the business world. Here is how it works:

In the NBA if you have a rookie and a vet who bring basically the same thing to the game, the coach is motivated to play the vet for several reasons:

1) If the vet sits, the owner has less room to negotiate a trade. It may not change the perceived value in the market, but it can change the negotiating positions of the parties anyway. One man's junk is another man's treasure. If you treat it like junk, it is less likely you can claim it's valuable. Thus, you hurt your negotiating position.

2) If the rookie plays well, it will be more difficult and costly to re-sign him. It may also make the vet look worse at the negotiating table. Sometimes it's a matter of timing with contracts. Millions of dollars are at stake and more is going on here than pure basketball decisions. It's complicated and I don't think anyone here is privy to the details.

3) The boss forked out millions on the vet. If the coach sticks his neck out and sits the vet and the rookie performs poorly, the coach is entirely to blame. If he plays the vet, he takes less heat. It's an easy decision by a risk averse coach. ...especially one who has been fired before like Jim O'Brien.

4) This is rare, but I think happens. If the rookie plays well, there are some instances where it might make the owner look foolish for investing so much in the vet. This is not the case with our players, but I do think this is a factor at times.

5) There is a pecking order in the locker room just as in any business. Sometimes it's experience level...sometimes relational/friendships...sometimes financial....sometimes it's a matter of respect for elders. Many times, the young dog is the smarter one but does not lead the pack because doing so would show a lack of respect for the old dog. The chemistry in the locker room is most definitely affected in different ways when rookies start taking the jobs of older players. Many older players don't think they are as done as they are (See JO). One guy with a huge contract has the argument that he's better simply because his contract is bigger. That argument will win the day at times. If a rookie is quiet (like AJ Price) and the vet is an extrovert, the coach may be careful or he will poison the stew.

Coaching is as much about psychology as it is X's and O's...

Eleazar
01-03-2011, 12:21 AM
This is the part a lot of people don't get. Especially young people with limited experience in the business world. Here is how it works:

In the NBA if you have a rookie and a vet who bring basically the same thing to the game, the coach is motivated to play the vet for several reasons:

1) If the vet sits, the owner has less room to negotiate a trade. It may not change the perceived value in the market, but it can change the negotiating positions of the parties anyway. One man's junk is another man's treasure. If you treat it like junk, it is less likely you can claim it's valuable. Thus, you hurt your negotiating position.

2) If the rookie plays well, it will be more difficult and costly to re-sign him. It may also make the vet look worse at the negotiating table. Sometimes it's a matter of timing with contracts. Millions of dollars are at stake and more is going on here than pure basketball decisions. It's complicated and I don't think anyone here is privy to the details.

3) The boss forked out millions on the vet. If the coach sticks his neck out and sits the vet and the rookie performs poorly, the coach is entirely to blame. If he plays the vet, he takes less heat. It's an easy decision by a risk averse coach. ...especially one who has been fired before like Jim O'Brien.

4) This is rare, but I think happens. If the rookie plays well, there are some instances where it might make the owner look foolish for investing so much in the vet. This is not the case with our players, but I do think this is a factor at times.

5) There is a pecking order in the locker room just as in any business. Sometimes it's experience level...sometimes relational/friendships...sometimes financial....sometimes it's a matter of respect for elders. Many times, the young dog is the smarter one but does not lead the pack because doing so would show a lack of respect for the old dog. The chemistry in the locker room is most definitely affected in different ways when rookies start taking the jobs of older players. Many older players don't think they are as done as they are (See JO). One guy with a huge contract has the argument that he's better simply because his contract is bigger. That argument will win the day at times. If a rookie is quiet (like AJ Price) and the vet is an extrovert, the coach may be careful or he will poison the stew.

Coaching is as much about psychology as it is X's and O's...
Don't underestimate me just because I'm young. As well just because someone has more experience doesn't mean they know better. Conventional wisdom may not always be right, it is only the best thing people were able to come up with at the time for those times. I will admit there are some times win playing the vet is better for business, but the Pacers aren't in that situation.

I know why a coach is motivated to play the vets over the young guys my argument isn't that there isn't motivation, my argument is that the motivation is often times stupid.

1) I understand this point of view, but this can be accomplished without complete disregard to the younger players like it has been seen on the Pacers.

2) If the young player is better than the vet and will help to bring more wins to the team, most likely the team will benefit far more monetarily in the long run from the players success than they will by playing the vet. I won't argue with playing the vet more if the vet and young player are similar in skill or the vet is better. I have a problem when the young player is obviously better like we have constantly seen with the Pacers the past 2 seasons.

3) This comes back to ego of those in power. As well this comes with recognizing that young players, especially rookies need to be handled with a delicate hand. The coach shouldn't just blinding give the young player minutes. The coach needs to play him more when he is playing well, and less when he isn't.

4) In fact I believe that is exactly the case. McRoberts made the investment in Murphy look foolish almost every time he stepped on the floor over the past 3 seasons. Price made the decision to play Ford over him this year look foolish by how he played last year and in pre-season.

5) A locker room hierarchy should not always be the same as the on floor hierarchy. In fact I would argue that 90% of the time it should in no way correlate to the floor. I understand that player management is just as important for a coach as the X's and O's, but if it is costing you wins at a certain point you have to put in his place. If he can't accept it you shouldn't want him on your team anyways. Typically the best vets aren't the Allen Iversons of the world, but the those who are willing to accept they only have a bigger contract because at the time they signed it they were better and/or more proven than the young player and they are willing to accept a lesser role.


I wouldn't have half the problem with playing vets over young guys on this team if the vets were actually better than the younger players. That is why I don't mind Dunleavy playing over George. At the same time though I recognize that George can potentially be 20 times better than Dunleavy today when the stars align, and when that happens he needs to play. The problem is he hasn't been given that chance after Rush's suspension was over.

Honestly I would say this team did a better job tanking by playing the veterans than they would have playing the young guys. So maybe it is better to play the vets.

Bball
01-03-2011, 02:49 AM
This thread is fun reading:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=35591

vnzla81
01-30-2011, 02:11 PM
OK guys let's close this thread for good, good job to all those guys that made this possible :dance::dance:

PaceBalls
01-30-2011, 02:18 PM
mission accomplished :)