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Coop
12-30-2008, 10:30 PM
Just another day at the office.

JayRedd
12-30-2008, 10:34 PM
Jarrett Jack gets the moral game ball.

vnzla81
12-30-2008, 10:35 PM
Is tanking time yet?

MiaDragon
12-30-2008, 10:35 PM
Jarrett Jack gets the moral game ball.

+1.

Can someone please break down Obie's rotations or lack there of?

imawhat
12-30-2008, 10:38 PM
Can we PLEASE stop the tank talk? 4 games back with 51 remaining.

The http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Hyperbole_1_sur_x.png needs to stop.

LG33
12-30-2008, 10:39 PM
Close game, close loss. 10-21 sucks.

D-BONE
12-30-2008, 10:41 PM
Slick and Mark during the 2nd quarter broadcast-

The Pacers are, in essence, playing NO defense right now.

I am paraphrasing (slightly).

EDIT: But I'm not paraphrasing the "PLAYING NO DEFENSE" part.

Cherokee
12-30-2008, 10:42 PM
Is tanking time yet?

You don't have to tank when you're losing anyway.

imawhat
12-30-2008, 10:44 PM
I know I said the hyperbole should stop, but this is not hyperbole. We may be the worst defensive execution team in the league. I don't buy into the no talent angle because we've seen this team play defense. They're just not putting forth a lot of effort and/or smarts.

LG33
12-30-2008, 10:44 PM
Are we losing games in the fourth quarter or are we losing them earlier?

D-BONE
12-30-2008, 10:45 PM
I know I said the hyperbole should stop, but this is not hyperbole. We may be the worst defensive execution team in the league. I don't buy into the no talent angle because we've seen this team play defense. They're just not putting forth a lot of effort and/or smarts.

I don't disagree, but we are lacking in personnel overall and especially defensively. Even if Hibbert and Rush end up exceeding expectation on the defensive side of the ball, it's still a couple years out. Plus, I think that assumption is far from certain at this point.

imawhat
12-30-2008, 10:46 PM
Both.

Kuq_e_Zi91
12-30-2008, 10:50 PM
Are we losing games in the forth quarter or are we losing them earlier?

I say the fourth. How do you lose a game if you're leading or still in it? It's the fourth where we can't get anything going. We just need to learn how to finish. It'll come with time and experience from games like these.

LG33
12-30-2008, 10:55 PM
Well, I'm thinking that maybe we don't take advantage of the chances we have earlier in the game to create a cushion to lessen the impact of our fourth quarter lapses. Or we put forth too much effort early with too few results. I don't know. I think we're better than 10-21 and I'm trying to understand why it isn't showing.

imawhat
12-30-2008, 10:59 PM
Well, you can't expect to have a decent record when you're allowing 85 points through 3 quarters, lead or not.

Also, we're not taking advantage of certain in-game situations. Two big ones tonight: 1) Attacking Mike Bibby every second he's on the court and 2) Attacking the basket when we're in the penalty with 8:30 remaining.

Kuq_e_Zi91
12-30-2008, 11:04 PM
Well, I'm thinking that maybe we don't take advantage of the chances we have earlier in the game to create a cushion to lessen the impact of our fourth quarter lapses. Or we put forth too much effort early with too few results. I don't know. I think we're better than 10-21 and I'm trying to understand why it isn't showing.

I see what you mean. There's a lot of aspects where we can improve.. defense, missed free throws, missed lay-ups. There were many instances in the first half where we left Johnson or Bibby open and were lucky they didn't convert like they usually would. There's no doubt that we're better than 10-21 and you've heard many players from opposing teams say it as well. This is why I just think it'll take a little time before we get everything going.

The Hawks were a good example of this and Quinn mentioned it in his interview with Horford after the game. He said, last years Hawks team would have collapsed like we did, but because of experience they knew what it took to close it out.

Quis
12-30-2008, 11:04 PM
Moving on up the lottery standings is a huge victory for this franchise.

vnzla81
12-30-2008, 11:08 PM
Moving on up the lottery standings is a huge victory for this franchise.

blake griffin baby:dance:

owl
12-30-2008, 11:17 PM
There are teams that are much worse than the Pacers and the Pacers could lose their
remaining games and still most likely not have the top pick.
My concern with the team right now is whether or not Obrien has lost the players.

JayRedd
12-30-2008, 11:21 PM
My concern with the team right now is whether or not Obrien has lost the players.

What would lead you to even mention that? I don't think there's been a shred of evidence to even begin considering that.

Our only problem has been execution and consistency. There is no lack of effort out there whatsoever.

count55
12-30-2008, 11:22 PM
What would lead you to even mention that? I don't think there's been a shred of evidence to even begin considering that.

Our only problem has been execution and consistency. There is no lack of effort out there whatsoever.

Get out of my head, damn you!

vnzla81
12-30-2008, 11:24 PM
the problem with this team is that they have a mix of player, they have players that are better playing up tempo and they have players that are better playing half court, they always have guys out of position, they need to make some trades and decided what tempo they wanna play.

MiaDragon
12-30-2008, 11:26 PM
What would lead you to even mention that? I don't think there's been a shred of evidence to even begin considering that.

Our only problem has been execution and consistency. There is no lack of effort out there whatsoever.

Yes, yes, yes. Id add we have a systematic problem we try to force square players down round pegs. Obie may be a great coach but the system he runs with these players is just not working.

D-BONE
12-30-2008, 11:27 PM
the problem with this team is that they have a mix of player, they have players that are better playing up tempo and they have players that are better playing half court, they always have guys out of position, they need to make some trades and decided what tempo they wanna play.

The problem is we have one good player and otherwise an entire roster of role players. Need one to two more good players.

D-BONE
12-30-2008, 11:29 PM
Yes, yes, yes. Id add we have a systematic problem we try to force square players down round pegs. Obie may be a great coach but the system he runs with these players is just not working.

I don't think JOB's "supporters" in this tread are asserting he's a great coach. Just that he's got this group playing as good as anyone could really hope. In other words, he's done a good job under the circumstances, but he's probably not a first choice to lead a team on a championship run.

JayRedd
12-30-2008, 11:31 PM
Yes, yes, yes. Id add we have a systematic problem we try to force square players down round pegs. Obie may be a great coach but the system he runs with these players is just not working.

Well...He's not changing his system. It's what he does.

Bird knows this. It's why he brought him in and the only way to put in a new, more conventional offense is to bring in someone else.

You don't hire Bill Walsh to run the ball 30 times a game and you don't hire JO'B to slow the game down. (And, no, I'm in no way comparing the guy who I consider the best offensive mind in football history to Jimmy in terms of ability...Just saying they both have signature, inalterable approaches to their respective sports.)

vnzla81
12-30-2008, 11:31 PM
The problem is we have one good player and otherwise an entire roster of role players. Need one to two more good players.

agreed on that too. that is why I been saying that they need to suck to get a high draft pick and let Dunleavy recover if that means sitting in home for the rest of the season

owl
12-30-2008, 11:32 PM
What would lead you to even mention that? I don't think there's been a shred of evidence to even begin considering that.

Our only problem has been execution and consistency. There is no lack of effort out there whatsoever.

Just an observation. I have no insider info. But if the team regresses instead of improving
especially on defense which would suggest players not buying into the plan that makes
me nervous. I hope the team remains united and something changes to show some hope for the future, near and far.

Justin Tyme
12-30-2008, 11:44 PM
Is tanking time yet?


Why tank? They are doing a fine job of losing the way it is.

Justin Tyme
12-30-2008, 11:50 PM
There are teams that are much worse than the Pacers and the Pacers could lose their
remaining games and still most likely not have the top pick.
My concern with the team right now is whether or not Obrien has lost the players.



Maybe a better question would be, did he truly ever have them?

jeffg-body
12-30-2008, 11:53 PM
I had someone give me a bit of insight on the Pacers woes, especially all of the missed lay ups and shots around the rim. A co-worker of mine said the whole team suffers from "Travis Best Syndrome". That is where they make a great move prior to the shot and blow the lay up.

Justin Tyme
12-30-2008, 11:54 PM
they need to make some trades and decided what tempo they wanna play.


Isn't that what Bird tried doing for Carlisle?

Justin Tyme
12-31-2008, 12:16 AM
Could it be that Bird really doesn't know talent, and can't assemble a team because of it? It will be interesting to see who Bird brings in to change this team for next year or even possibly yet this year. I'm just not convinced Bird knows how to put together a winning team. Hopefully in the near future he can take those doubts away.

19 games lost by allowing the opposition to score 100 or more points. Someone needs to tell Bird there is no place in the standings for exciting & entertaining losses. He assembled the team and hired the coach, it's all his baby.

Hicks
12-31-2008, 12:45 AM
The problem is, this entire season is skewed by the absence of Dunleavy. For all we know, the record would be the same with him playing and healthy, but at the same time, the team could be .500 right now.

The point is: We don't know, and that is extremely frustrating for us and I'm sure Larry et al as well, and moreso it freezes the evaluation of the team and its growth on certain levels because no one really knows what we have.

Reason # 23059285 why injuries suck.

duke dynamite
12-31-2008, 01:16 AM
Look for my blog tomorrow, I am not sure I can re-post this one before it is looked over by Pacers.com.

Anthem
12-31-2008, 01:37 AM
Seems like we talk a lot less on D than we did at the beginning of the year. In our openers it really surprised me how much we talked.

Don't see that much now.

d_c
12-31-2008, 01:38 AM
Yes, yes, yes. Id add we have a systematic problem we try to force square players down round pegs. Obie may be a great coach but the system he runs with these players is just not working.

I know this doesn't apply to this season, but consider that out of the 5 coaches Dunleavy has had in this league, Obie is the only one who has gotten anything out of him. For everyone who points out how much Dunleavy would help this team right now, you need to consider that.

BRushWithDeath
12-31-2008, 01:45 AM
It's like Groundhog Day.

BRushWithDeath
12-31-2008, 01:47 AM
Also, it is completely and utterly inexcusable for McRoberts to get a DNP.

CableKC
12-31-2008, 02:13 AM
The problem is, this entire season is skewed by the absence of Dunleavy. For all we know, the record would be the same with him playing and healthy, but at the same time, the team could be .500 right now.

The point is: We don't know, and that is extremely frustrating for us and I'm sure Larry et al as well, and moreso it freezes the evaluation of the team and its growth on certain levels because no one really knows what we have.

Reason # 23059285 why injuries suck.
I agree. Think about it, how many missed Games for our key Players have we had due to some injury or sickness to one of our key players?

I hate the fact that we are giving up 100+ points a game and won't say that we would have played better defense IF Dunleavy was playing.......but it's also hard to dismiss that for ( at least ) 1/3 of the games this season, we have ( for one reason or another ) been missing one of our key rotational players ( not including Dunleavy ) at one time or another that would have made a difference on the offensive end.

For the last couple of games, our Starting PG has been limited due to recuring Back injuries......we didn't have our Starting PF for a full week due to a bad case of Stomach Flu....the same applied to Granger and Marquis during that same stretch which took them out for 2 games....then add in a few here and there where we didn't have Rasho or Foster. In fact, if there are players that have been healthy during the 1st 30 games, it's been players like Hibbert, BRush and ( I'm guessing ) Jack.

Again, I'm not saying that we would have won the vast majority of the games this season IF Dunleavy or everyone else was playing. But until I see our primary rotation of Ford/Marquis/Granger/Murphy/Hibbert/Dunleavy/Jack/Foster/Rasho ( with 10 minutes a piece for Diener/BRush ) play for 1 full injury-free month, it's difficult to say whether we are actually suck or not.

I hate for it to be an excuse, but injuries ( like always ) have affected how this team has played as a whole.

CableKC
12-31-2008, 02:33 AM
Also, it is completely and utterly inexcusable for McRoberts to get a DNP.
I agree with this too.

I really think that WHEN we have a healthy roster that for about 10 minutes in the 2nd half that players like Diener and McRoberts should get some minutes in order to rest players like Foster, Rasho, Jack and Ford. The 2nd half is where we lose the games and I really think that a lack of energy in our finishers is a reason for the crappier defense that we put up in the 2nd half.

Diener and McRoberts are energy guys that can come in with some fresh legs and spark the offense if not give our finishers some rest.

tora tora
12-31-2008, 02:45 AM
I didn't catch the game, but why is Roy starting over Jeff?

Trader Joe
12-31-2008, 02:52 AM
What would lead you to even mention that? I don't think there's been a shred of evidence to even begin considering that.

Our only problem has been execution and consistency. There is no lack of effort out there whatsoever.

Yeah I can vouch from seeing them against NO up close that the players are still hanging onto O'Briens every word.

I'm just not so sure they should be.

Trader Joe
12-31-2008, 02:55 AM
Also, am I the only one that

A.) Isn't holding their breath for Dun to return.

and

B.) Thinks that even if he does return the impact on the win-loss column will be minimal.

CableKC
12-31-2008, 03:34 AM
Also, am I the only one that

A.) Isn't holding their breath for Dun to return.

and

B.) Thinks that even if he does return the impact on the win-loss column will be minimal.
I'm in the same boat as you are in regards to Dunleavy returning but think that he will have a more of an affect in the win-loss column then you do.

Although I can't prove that his presense would have made a difference in our recent skid of "close but no cigar" losses and think that he won't help nor hurt the defense.....I suspect that his offense and passing skills would have helped us win a few of those close games. I'm not saying that it's as simple as looking at the box score, subtracting BRush's offensive/defensive contributions and add in a more consistent threat like Dunleavy....but I think that his "positive" contributions on the floor outweigh his "negative" contributions enough that it will make more of a difference on the court than not.

Dunleavy won't get us over the hump for a 2nd round Playoff run or even allow us to beat Top-Tier Teams, but he could be the difference maker in these type of close games that we play against teams that we should be able to compete against ( like some of the 2nd and 3rd Tier teams ).

Lord Helmet
12-31-2008, 06:09 AM
The record is tough to look at now, and I honestly try not to look at it, but seriously, we're what, 4 games out of the playoffs now? I don't think this season is lost at all. It's going to be a tough climb, and hopefully Dunleavy can come back and give this team a little spark they need, but who knows.

All I know is that tank talk right now is completely absurd. Anyone who thinks that this team is tanking has not been watching games. How many games have we lost this year by 6 points or less? I don't even want to know.

Another thing, for the people who actually do want us to tank so we can get a good lottery pick, when are you going to want us to stop and actually compete? Eventually we're going to have to compete and start learning how to win.

Luckily, I believe we're doing just that, right now.

Tough record. It could be worse like always, but hopefully we get some breaks, get Dunleavy back soon and sneak in the playoffs.

DGPR
12-31-2008, 07:00 AM
I'm tired of hearing about the tank, play another track please. Losing games on purpose hurts morale and loses fans. Let the chips fall where they may. (Which is probably going to be out of the playoffs at this rate anyways)

Brad8888
12-31-2008, 10:44 AM
If Dunleavy makes a difference when he hopefully comes back, it will be because he will be able to make even poorly called plays more successful due to his court vision and awareness.

From a simplistic viewpoint, he makes us far more effective offensively, and therefore the opposition must expend more energy and fouls defensively to stop us. This creates additional free throws AND takes some of the energy out of the opponents legs in late game situations, leaving them more vulnerable to playing as we have been down the stretch.

However, this would be the best case scenario, and probably would be countered by the changes in rotations that will inevitably come when he returns.

Unclebuck
12-31-2008, 11:15 AM
When a coach losses a team, the team starts losing by huge amounts. Go back and look at the 6 coaches who have ben fird, in each case, the teams lost badly by more than 20 points in the few games before the firing. Losing games by 1 point in OT, does not even hint at the coach losing the team

Jonathan
12-31-2008, 02:13 PM
Seems like we talk a lot less on D than we did at the beginning of the year. In our openers it really surprised me how much we talked.

Don't see that much now.

My problem is this. I do not want or cannot comment on games that I do not see. I will attend over ten @ Conseco but we have not been on TV that much recently.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2008, 02:22 PM
I hadn't had my down close seat for several weeks now so I hadn't really seen the team in this losing streak mode up close yet. The moods stood out to me quite a bit.

Danny is frustrated. Bad. He made the "I'm sick of this crap" face several times after other players screwed up. It's not just losing, it's how guys are helping to lose games that's bugging him.

Foster is pushing like a vet to keep things positive. He went out of his way to give guys a hand slap and try to keep them focused and in it when things went wrong. Pretty impressive actually. Shows just how critical he is to the team.

Jack is pushing and alternates between sloppy and frustrated. He's struggling and it's bleeding into his game. Last night he made several shots in the 4th that had no business going in and represented a lot of why the team CAN'T close out, meaning if that's the only shot you can find you aren't going to win many games.

Quis remains really focused. His intensity never let up and I think part of it is that he has a laid back mentality to him, he can let some of the tough things roll off enough to keep grinding.

Roy and Rush both were terrible and they knew it. Each showed when they knew they screwed up, especially Rush. He's taking his bad play pretty hard. No one likes to struggle, but some guys get right back on it and some don't.

Murph and Rasho were really showing frustration, especially with the refs. I think they linger with the ref issues more than Jeff. Jeff barks out his complaint but then gets right back to it. I think those 2 are taking it harder.

TJ seemed relaxed. Not sure what to make of that. Maybe it's the limited PT or maybe he really just stays happy. I don't think he doesn't care or anything, but he's more than just letting it slide like Quis, he stays almost non-chalant.

Diener was his spunky self and I think he actually works well with Jeff, Danny and Quis to push things along. He doesn't have the same talent, but he's a bit better about decision making in the crunch and has more vet to him than I realized before.



In terms of play:

Roy can not jump, he was crushed by Horford and Murphy on the glass and is just nowhere close to being a rebounding presence. Roy is struggling to establish post position and get himself available for the post feed. He contributed nothing to the game and often hurt the team with his choices on both ends.

Rush just overplays too much. He's pushing, hard. He's trying to solve things by just making huge plays. Once he dials that back he'll make a nice step forward. But last night he was killing them all over the place.

Props to JOB for sticking with both Rush and Roy during their struggles. They deserved to be yanked many times and he rode it out with them. That's going to pay off later this season, let alone next year.


If Jack goes into the air/shot and decides to pass one more time I'm going to start calling him Fred Jones. It's not just time to time, it's all the time. He's running PG horribly right now. His defense was better for the most part but that passing...


Quis and Danny are kicking butt. Danny's shot wasn't there generally but holy crap were these two basically doing everything last night. You need a play, they made a play. I enjoyed the massive heckling we gave Horford when he had to in-bounds by us right after Danny blew him up with that block.

I want Quis to stay, I love watching him play, I love his defense, I want him to be part of the future of this team. He gave Joe fits at times. I noticed that Joe often wanted no part of going to his left and Quis (and Danny too) would just dare him to do it. This often ended in a poor missed jump shot by Joe. Outstanding work by Quis (and DG).

Foster has his limits, sure. But he knows what he is doing out there and it shows. This is why he stays in the B&G.

Troy impressed me with his rebounding. He's not perfect and he is overpaid, but he easily could be in an 8-9 man rotation of a winning team.

But that's about it, you've got 2 quality players, a good vet leader, and a decent rebounding/3pt specialist. Then you have 2 rookie projects that have hit a wall and simply aren't ready to be part of the solution. You can't win with them right now. I'd throw McBob in there as well though I'm still dumbfounded as to why he doesn't play.



If Dunleavy were a center or a PG I could see him having a big impact, but SG/SF is the one spot they don't need help at all. It's the one source of really dependable, go-to play on the court.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2008, 02:30 PM
Isn't that what Bird tried doing TO Carlisle?
Fixed

When Rawle Marshall is the best fast break guy on your roster you aren't going to be a very good running team.

Naptown_Seth
12-31-2008, 02:36 PM
JOB is losing the team, but not because he's a bad coach (or is). That's why I put the attitude stuff in my first post. When you can hear their reactions and see their faces in those moments you can really read them, and this team looked whipped all night. I was shocked that they were able to keep it close.

The issue is that they have talent issues and some of that poor play and those crap decisions are wearing on the other guys. When Jack comes down and makes a terrible mid-air pass for the TO, you see Granger complain about it. he mutters, he shakes his head. It wasn't just mad at refs or mad at the physical play.

I saw Jeff having to go out of his way to try to keep guys in it, they had that we're beat thing most of the night.

In fact it was the very late rally that got them and the crowd fired up, prior to that they spent most of the night looking like a really discouraged group. I don't want things to fall apart but I'm afraid they might be.

Maybe a Dun return could help that part of things, I'll give you that.

Anthem
12-31-2008, 03:38 PM
Roy can not jump, he was crushed by Horford and Murphy on the glass and is just nowhere close to being a rebounding presence. Roy is struggling to establish post position and get himself available for the post feed.
Do you see this as a rookie needing to adjust, or do you see this as a "this is what the guy's going to be forever" situation?


In fact it was the very late rally that got them and the crowd fired up, prior to that they spent most of the night looking like a really discouraged group. I don't want things to fall apart but I'm afraid they might be.
On the other hand, a couple of good wins could really turn this thing around for them.

Justin Tyme
12-31-2008, 03:40 PM
I hate for it to be an excuse, but injuries ( like always ) have affected how this team has played as a whole.


It played a major part in how the team played last year too, but that team won 36/37 games with less playing talent. This team won't even get close to winning that many games this season.

Justin Tyme
12-31-2008, 03:45 PM
Also, am I the only one that

A.) Isn't holding their breath for Dun to return.

and

B.) Thinks that even if he does return the impact on the win-loss column will
be minimal.


No, I have stated basically the samething.

shockedandchagrined
12-31-2008, 04:01 PM
I hadn't had my down close seat for several weeks now so I hadn't really seen the team in this losing streak mode up close yet. The moods stood out to me quite a bit.

Danny is frustrated. Bad. He made the "I'm sick of this crap" face several times after other players screwed up. It's not just losing, it's how guys are helping to lose games that's bugging him.

If Jack goes into the air/shot and decides to pass one more time I'm going to start calling him Fred Jones. It's not just time to time, it's all the time. He's running PG horribly right now. His defense was better for the most part but that passing...

If Dunleavy were a center or a PG I could see him having a big impact, but SG/SF is the one spot they don't need help at all. It's the one source of really dependable, go-to play on the court.


Last night was my first time up close this season and I can echo a couple of your observations. Granger looked frustrated on a number of occasions, but there was one in particular that really stood out to me. I cannot remember at what point in the 4th quarter this occurred or what the score was exactly, but it was after a timeout and before the court had been cleared to resume play. Granger was sitting on the scorer's table with his shoulder's slumped, staring into space. He really looked hopeless at that moment, even though the game was still in doubt.

I like Jack quite a bit overall, but he needs to be confined to a chair, clockwork orange-style, and subjected to his jump-pass-turnovers until that neural path is effectively detoured.

Regarding Dunleavy, I think he will impact this team positively if/when he returns. They desperately need his three-point shooting (presuming a percentage near last year's efficiency). More than that though, they need another settling force, someone that knows how to take practice concepts and apply them in the games. He's the one guy that I would trust more than anyone else to be in the right position, and to also know the relative positions of everyone else. Maybe I'm giving him to much credit for last year's performance. I certainly don't think he's going to be carrying them to any success by himself, but I do think he helps make everyone a little better.

Naptown_Seth
01-01-2009, 06:18 AM
Anthem,

I think Roy is F'd on rebounding. I don't mean that in a hostile way toward him, but getting back to sitting up close was a bit of a shock to me on this aspect. He was flat-out getting crushed at the rim, he had no business even being in that scrum with guys from either team. I mean it's just not as obvious on TV to me.

And when the ball did get to his hands he fumbled it away several times (boards and passes). That part could improve as the game slows for him, but he's just not a leaper at all. He shows no instincts for it, he's not just getting up late or failing to block out or other correctable things.

I like Roy and I love Rush, so criticism like this doesn't mean I don't want them to play. I just think the expectations of Roy can't include more than 4 rebounds per game. Ever.


They did get going after the late rally, as did the crowd. But it's going to take more than a few wins to offset what's building up now. I mean I'm no pro-athlete, but I've played plenty of rec sports and coached little league many years, and I know that growing feeling where players start to grumble and get irritated that a guy is killing their efforts with bad play.

One reason guys like going to all-star teams is that they get a chance to play with other guys that can react at their level and can not only keep up but can even carry them at times.

Right now Danny is starting to get tired of pulling so hard and having 1 dumb mistake send the wagon into a ditch. Part of this is him becoming a vet I suppose, but we also have to remember that everyone has their own personality. Quis and Jeff seemed most capable of dealing with those dud plays.

Keep in mind Anthem that this team already has the Boston, LA and Houston wins as morale boosters and yet here they are not that many games down the line getting disgusted with the stupid mistakes.


I am coming around on Dun helping IF he's got his 3pt shot. If not then he's going to be part of the problem, just another guy flubbing his role and ticking off the guys playing well. OTOH if his shot is falling and he's having a positive/neutral impact then I agree that his tolerance level for frustration is going to help much the way Jeff's does.


And yes, I'm in the "he ain't coming back" camp on Dun. I'm concerned.


The whole thing just stinks. I thought they would struggle but then they lured me in with some much nicer play than I expected early on, even though they weren't getting many wins from it. Time to break out the Charlie Brown shirt and maybe a sign saying "Drat". Maybe I can slip it into Matt's pile so it can get some air time. :D

I just hope they don't quit on us. I mean it's easy to say you won't, but 2 more months of this type of losing is going to have guys at the end of their rope.

Unclebuck
01-01-2009, 11:16 AM
I have on purpose stayed away from this thread.

Seth, I agree with your assessment of the attitude, it was visible to me just watching on TV. First game all season I thought the Pacers lost not because of the opponent or the schedule or even bad play - they lost this game specifically because they have lost so many previous games. The more you lose the more you lose. The Hawks who didn't play that well at all and Pacers could have easily won, but their confidence is shot, The Hawks won IMO only because the more they win the more they win.

I think the Pacers are at the tipping point - either they will stay together as a team and start to win a little more, or the players will splinter and stop believing in each other.

Edit- There seems to be a falsehood (IMO) that this is JOB's system and he is sticking to it. Ths offensive system is almost nothing like what he ran in Boston or Philly. Neither of those teams ran, neither played a passing game type offense. Yes they shot the three a lot in Boston, less so in Philly and less so this year. The only thing that hasn't changed is the defensive system (which is very similar to what the Celtics currently run

Justin Tyme
01-01-2009, 12:44 PM
Edit- There seems to be a falsehood (IMO) that this is JOB's system and he is sticking to it. Ths ofensive system is almost nothing like what he ran in Boston or Philly. Neither of those teams ran, neither played a pasing game type offense. Yes they shot the thre a lot in Boston, less so in Philly and less so this year. The only thing that hasn't changed is the defensive sytem (which is very similar to what the Celtics currently run


It may not be the same system he had in Boston or Philly, but it is HIS system never the less. He's the coach that determines how the team he's coaching plays. That makes it his system no matter what style of ball he's having the team play. It's not the Simons' system, nor Bird's system, or the assistant coaches' system... it's JO'B's system.

His system is the type of game that he feels is the way BB should be played... run n gun. There is no getting around how the Pacers are playing is JO'B's system. If the team was winning, there would be little doubt whose system would be getting the credit. It's a 2 way street where his system can accept success, but it also has to be held responsible for failure.

Anthem
01-01-2009, 04:35 PM
Keep in mind Anthem that this team already has the Boston, LA and Houston wins as morale boosters and yet here they are not that many games down the line getting disgusted with the stupid mistakes.
It seems like it all fell apart after that game where they were up 20 and still lost. Which game was that? Whatever it was, that's when the whole feel of the season changed.

imawhat
01-01-2009, 04:46 PM
Philadelphia, and I agree. That was a devastating loss, especially for a new team.

count55
01-01-2009, 04:47 PM
It seems like it all fell apart after that game where they were up 20 and still lost. Which game was that? Whatever it was, that's when the whole feel of the season changed.

Philly, I believe...11/14.

One game here or there isn't going to help. They need a stretch where they win like four of five to believe.

I still think they start games believing they can win, then when it starts to slide, they go, "Uh oh!"