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kerosene
06-19-2004, 02:30 AM
Is there any excuse for any professional basketball player to hit less then 75% of their free throws?

efx
06-19-2004, 02:31 AM
For the ****ing money they get paid? no.

Kstat
06-19-2004, 02:32 AM
Is there any excuse for any professional basketball player to hit less then 75% of their free throws?

WHen your hands are disproportionate to the rest of your body, it often hurts your FT shooting.

Ben's hands are too small, shaq's are too big.

ANd dont give me that "they dont work on it" line of crap. OBVIOUSLY shaq has worked his butt off on FTs, he just cant find a good form.

kerosene
06-19-2004, 02:36 AM
Shaq changes his form from trip to trip to the line. If he stuck with one form he might be more sucessful. Don't go all Ben Wallace on me either, there are Pacers who don't hit this level either; it has nothing to do with Ben Wallace.

Aw Heck
06-19-2004, 02:43 AM
I think injury is the only excuse for shooting less than 75%.

These are people who are supposed to have been playing basketball their whole lives. You would think that with as much time they've spent in their life shooting a basketball and going to practice that they would develop a reliable free throw routine.

As for Big Ben and Shaq, I know they have disproportionate hands. That just makes it difficult to shoot FT's, not impossible. If they truly worked and worked or had a FT coach they would have to eventually find something that worked consistently.

Kstat
06-19-2004, 02:46 AM
I think injury is the only excuse for shooting less than 75%.

These are people who are supposed to have been playing basketball their whole lives. You would think that with as much time they've spent in their life shooting a basketball and going to practice that they would develop a reliable free throw routine.

As for Big Ben and Shaq, I know they have disproportionate hands. That just makes it difficult to shoot FT's, not impossible. If they truly worked and worked or had a FT coach they would have to eventually find something that worked consistently.

thats such a freaking misconception.

Shaq has had how many FT coaches? 15? 20?

And please, stop with the "he doesnt work on it" crap. Its been the biggest weakness in his game his entire acreer. You HONESTLY think he doesnt care that he cant get touches late in games?

Aw Heck
06-19-2004, 02:59 AM
thats such a freaking misconception.

Shaq has had how many FT coaches? 15? 20?

And please, stop with the "he doesnt work on it" crap. Its been the biggest weakness in his game his entire acreer. You HONESTLY think he doesnt care that he cant get touches late in games?

I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that a person can work hard for years to find a way to consistently make free throws and finds it impossible.

Do you think there's absolutely NOTHING Ben or Shaq can do to consistently make free throws?

Do you HONESTLY think that if Ben or Shaq spent an entire offseason camped at a FT line that they wouldn't be able find a consistent FT shot?

:confused: :confused:

Kstat
06-19-2004, 03:07 AM
thats such a freaking misconception.

Shaq has had how many FT coaches? 15? 20?

And please, stop with the "he doesnt work on it" crap. Its been the biggest weakness in his game his entire acreer. You HONESTLY think he doesnt care that he cant get touches late in games?

I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that a person can work hard for years to find a way to consistently make free throws and finds it impossible.

Do you think there's absolutely NOTHING Ben or Shaq can do to consistently make free throws?

Do you HONESTLY think that if Ben or Shaq spent an entire offseason camped at a FT line that they wouldn't be able find a consistent FT shot?

:confused: :confused:

Yeas, I really do believe that. Ben has one of the best FT shooting forms you will see out of a big man, yet he STILL cant make them.

Aw Heck
06-19-2004, 03:23 AM
Yeas, I really do believe that. Ben has one of the best FT shooting forms you will see out of a big man, yet he STILL cant make them.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Ben/Shaq shooting FT's right now is "miss one, make one." I personally think that if they shot enough, they would eventually find out what would cause them to "make one" and do that over and over again until they could do it consistently. They wouldn't shoot 100%, but at least 70-75%.

They have the ability to make FT's. They just have to figure out their personal way to make them, even if it means sacrificing a good form.

That's just my opinion and I'm sure you'll disagree with me. But that's fine.

pacerwaala
06-19-2004, 08:05 AM
I agree with Kstat on that Ben has one of the best FT shooting forms. Dale Davis for that matter had good FT form and could notmake them.

ABADays
06-19-2004, 08:14 AM
But why? Bender supposedly has disproportionately small hands for his size and he makes them.

indygeezer
06-19-2004, 08:34 AM
I've told the stories before about my two youngens playing CYO ball this year and their only points scored (for either of them) came in the last game of the season...Geezerette 2-2...Geezer Jr 1-2. I still LUV Geezerttes comment following the game. " Well dad that's why you practice them and besides, there's nobody gaurding you."

IMO Shaq should be horsewhipped for his PRIDEFULLNESS in refusing to learn a different way. Rick Barry offered to teach him the underhanded free-throw and Shaq refused His comment was to the effect that the guys would laugh him off the floor. That told me where his priorities lay. Why not an underhand shot of it helps you win, or a hook shot, or whatever other legal shot as long as it helps you win? Would he refuse to take instruction on the sky-hook from Kareem? (well yeah maybe)

BostonConnection
06-19-2004, 09:11 AM
Ben has one of the best FT shooting forms you will see out of a big man, yet he STILL cant make them.

You know, that was one of the things that stuck out in my mind when I was watching the Finals. Ben's FT shooting form is much, much better than Shaq's, it's hard to believe he makes such a poor percentage of them. :confused:

And geezer, I actually don't want Shaq to learn how to make a Kareem-style skyhook, let him do things the hard way... :laugh:
(just imagine if Yao had the sky hook shot down like Kareem - man, would he be tough to stop!)

MSA2CF
06-19-2004, 09:45 AM
:argue::argue::argue::argue::argue:.........

Simply put, there is no excuse.

ChicagoJ
06-19-2004, 12:07 PM
I just think the thresshold is 70%. No big man has ever shot 80% for thier career so 75% is too high.

For the record, I always thought Dale's FT form was horrible. But so is Reggie's. :whoknows:

Anthem
06-19-2004, 12:19 PM
I just think the thresshold is 70%. No big man has ever shot 80% for thier career so 75% is too high.

Didn't Rik shoot 85% for several years?

Hicks
06-19-2004, 12:34 PM
thats such a freaking misconception.

Shaq has had how many FT coaches? 15? 20?

And please, stop with the "he doesnt work on it" crap. Its been the biggest weakness in his game his entire acreer. You HONESTLY think he doesnt care that he cant get touches late in games?

I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that a person can work hard for years to find a way to consistently make free throws and finds it impossible.

Do you think there's absolutely NOTHING Ben or Shaq can do to consistently make free throws?

Do you HONESTLY think that if Ben or Shaq spent an entire offseason camped at a FT line that they wouldn't be able find a consistent FT shot?

:confused: :confused:

Yeas, I really do believe that. Ben has one of the best FT shooting forms you will see out of a big man, yet he STILL cant make them.

I bet it's psychological at this point. He sucked at them for so long, even with good form it's hard to do it. That can seriously effect you in anything you do.

Hicks
06-19-2004, 12:34 PM
I just think the thresshold is 70%. No big man has ever shot 80% for thier career so 75% is too high.

Didn't Rik shoot 85% for several years?

I know Brad Miller was about 80% while he was here.

Unclebuck
06-19-2004, 12:43 PM
Shaq is bad for three reasons.

1) he had a wrist injury early in life and he does not get a good flick on the ball or follow through

2) he has huge hands

3) he has had so many coaches and has tried a different form every year, and that has gotten into his head.


One other point I want to make........someone said that for the money these guys make they all should shoot over 75%. I don't see the connection. Someone can pay me 10 million dollars and that won't make me a good basketball player, no matter how hard I work.

kerosene
06-19-2004, 12:59 PM
I just think the thresshold is 70%. No big man has ever shot 80% for thier career so 75% is too high.

I think you're right about 70%. It was too late for me to change the poll though so it stays.

I didn't mean to be so down on Ben as his form is consistent and he doesn't just brick his shots. They go a little left or right or long; he's usually very close.

Kstat
06-19-2004, 04:27 PM
I just think the thresshold is 70%. No big man has ever shot 80% for thier career so 75% is too high.

For the record, I always thought Dale's FT form was horrible. But so is Reggie's. :whoknows:

I think its pretty safe to assume that Yao will be a career %80 FT shooter at lease.

dipperdunk
06-19-2004, 05:59 PM
I'm not so sure that good free throw shooting has a direct relation to winning NBA championships though. I know as fans its our pet peeve I think its because its one area of basketball that you can do well at regardless of skill level so when we see professionals struggle its hard to comprehend. Its kind of like bunting in baseball. Barry Bonds probably couldn't bunt to save his life but half the kids in little league can do it. I'm pretty sure that there at 14 year olds out there who can shoot 85% and most of us who played pick up b-ball growing up could probably knock down 70%++ However some of the most successful players in the history of basketball were poor free throw shooters.

Bill Russell--56%
Wilt--------51%
Bill Walton--66%
Shaq-------53%
Duncan-----69%

I think its more important to be a good clutch free throw shooter; I know many times a guy that shoots 85% steps up in crunch time and chokes and misses a pair. Shaq although a poor free throw shooter has made most of his clutch free throws in final possession situations especially in the playoffs. Dennis Rodman was a poor free throw shooter but I can remember many times him stepping to the line and sinking clutch free throws during the Bulls run. I never watched Russell but I'm guessing he had to be pretty good in the clutch as well to win all those championships. Duncan isn't much from the line but he also usually makes the ones that count.

Stryder
06-19-2004, 09:24 PM
I don't care who the player is, what size his hands are, etc. but there is NO EXCUSE to be a <75% free throw shooter.

If I can shoot at least 75% from the line, then all of those that get paid to play the damn game should be able to do the same.

NO EXCUSE!

I went out the other day and shot 100 free throws. Guess how many I hit.
































89.

ROCislandWarrior
06-19-2004, 09:48 PM
I don't care who the player is, what size his hands are, etc. but there is NO EXCUSE to be a <75% free throw shooter.

If I can shoot at least 75% from the line, then all of those that get paid to play the damn game should be able to do the same.

NO EXCUSE!

I went out the other day and shot 100 free throws. Guess how many I hit.
































89.

That is nice...BUT

Like UB said, how much money NBA players make has nothing to do with how they shoot free throws. That is just one part of the game.

What about the other skills/abilities?

Can you Post up a 7 footer?
Can you shoot over a 7 footer?
Can you Throw it down in traffic?
Can you keep the Big boys off the glass?
etc, etc, etc...

Your not going to get a 10 Million Dollar contract just because you can shoot free throws and you won't be denied one simply because you can't shoot 75%.

indygeezer
06-20-2004, 08:11 AM
Why not? If I'm paid gajillion $ to play then I'd best be putting every ounce of energy into improving. If my weakness is FT shooting I Damn well better be focusing my offseason on FTs NOT on adding a fadeaway to my repetoire. If a player can hit 3 more ft's/ game he could raise his ppg ave. from say 15 to 18. How hard is it for a player to raise his scoring average??? IMO FT improvement would be the easiest place for him to find a quick fix. How much higher would Reggies scoring average have been this year if he was getting to the line as frequently as he did in his younger days???

Will Galen
06-20-2004, 09:33 AM
How much higher would Reggie's scoring average have been this year if he was getting to the line as frequently as he did in his younger days???


Reggie is no longer the first option, so he can't get to the line as much as he used to, plus he doesn't play as many minutes.

Another thing, if it's in your head working harder won't fix it.

Which reminds me . . .

I used to bowl in several leagues. I've had a season ending average as high as 184 so I'm not a slouch.

One of the bowling alleys I bowled in has a ball return that pops out of the floor out by where people let go of the ball. One day I was clear over to the right side of the lane trying to get my ball to hook into the pocket. As it turned out I was to far over. By ball hit the ball return before I even let go of it and it caromed off the ball return and hit me in the ankle and took my legs out from under me. Let me tell you that it really smarts to be clipped in the ankle by a bowling ball. It ruined my bowling that night but I forgot about it.

Two weeks later the same thing happened. The rest of that season my average plummeted, and not only in that league, and not only in that alley, but across the board. My highest average that year was 126. It was all in my head, I knew it was all in my head, but I couldn't do anything about it no matter how hard I practiced. I would go and practice ten games and I wouldn't improve. I sat out the next year out of frustration. The year after that I was okay. However, I had sense enough to stay away from ball returns. :P

The point? Once these guys get it into their head that they can't shoot free throws, they actually can't. After so much time goes by I think they need to work on their mind as well as their form if they wish to improve.

indygeezer
06-20-2004, 09:49 AM
The point? Once these guys get it into their head that they can't shoot free throws, they actually can't. After so much time goes by I think they need to work on their mind as well as their form if they wish to improve.
++++++++++++++++++++

I absolutely agree with you on that Will :o . It is the mental aspect that requires the greatest work. That's what practice does tho. It allows you to build the confidence (oh crap..typing that just made me think of how much of an All-star Bender is in PRACTICE...ruins my entire theory!)
No, it still stands. If players spend hours trying to develope a new shot to add, why wouldn't that same time be better spent building the confidence in their FT shooting?

I guess it still comes down to that CHOKE FACTOR doesn't it?

Regarding Reggie, my intent was the inverse of how you read it tho. I wsa pointing out that much of the drop off in his scoring average had as much to do with his not going to the FT line anymore as anything. Tack on his normal FT production and I'd be willing to bet that his drop off wouldn't be so drastict.

tseramid
06-20-2004, 10:10 AM
Don't forget also that these players have to sprint up and down the court, bang with huge players and just came off of being hacked. They also don't shoot 100 shots at a time, but rather 2 (or 1 or 3) at a time. This is far more difficult than going into your back yard and firing up 100 shots with no pressure on you.

Will Galen
06-20-2004, 12:45 PM
Don't forget also that these players have to sprint up and down the court, bang with huge players and just came off of being hacked. They also don't shoot 100 shots at a time, but rather 2 (or 1 or 3) at a time. This is far more difficult than going into your back yard and firing up 100 shots with no pressure on you.

That's true, but some player's still have high free throw averages. Of course to boaster your argument it's usually the guys that don't do the banging that have the high percentage's.

Plus it seems to me that the reason the Pacer's and Piston's missed so many point blank shots in their series is because both teams were playing great defense and they was a lot of bumping everywhere.

It makes sense that if your straining your guts out to hold position and you are suddenly at the free throw line you are not going to be very smooth.

And if you are continually getting bumped you expect to get bumped so when you go in for a lay up it's not going to be as smooth.

Makes some sense.

Here's the all time free throw list. How many were known as bangers?

Player FTM FTA FT%
1. Mark Price 2,135 2,362 .904
2. Rick Barry 3,818 4,243 .900
3. Steve Nash 1,258 1,409 .893
4. Calvin Murphy 3,445 3,864 .892
5. Scott Skiles 1,548 1,741 .889
6. Reggie Miller 5,987 6,758 .886
6. Larry Bird 3,960 4,471 .886
8. Predrag Stojakovic 1,373 1,551 .885
8. Ray Allen 2,199 2,486 .885
8. Darrell Armstrong 1,279 1,446 .885
11. Bill Sharman 3,143 3,559 .883
12. Jeff Hornacek 2,973 3,390 .877
13. Ricky Pierce 3,389 3,871 .875
14. Chauncey Billups 1,493 1,709 .874
15. Terrell Brandon 1,784 2,043 .873
16. Kiki Vandeweghe 3,484 3,997 .872
17. Jeff Malone 2,947 3,383 .871
18. Hersey Hawkins 3,466 3,985 .870
18. Mike Newlin 3,005 3,456 .870
20. Micheal Williams 1,545 1,780 .868
21. Chris Mullin 3,616 4,178 .865
22. Allan Houston 2,536 2,936 .864
23. John Long 1,814 2,104 .862
24. Sam Cassell 2,857 3,328 .858
24. Dana Barros 1,249 1,456 .858
24. Fred Brown 1,896 2,211 .858
27. Derek Anderson 1,590 1,856 .857
28. Larry Siegfried 1,662 1,945 .854
28. Richard Hamilton 1,417 1,659 .854
28. Mario Elie