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Peck
10-18-2008, 04:39 AM
Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours.

Before I talk about the game, I want to deal with the post game call in show.

Look guys, before anybody calls me out for going back on my words about not talking about things from the past I want to say this. Both Denari and Kevin Lee were making a point to say this stuff so I think it is more than newsworthy.

For the Jermaine O'Neal fans in the audiance you might want to skip over this.

BTW, this was not from callers prodding this. They both spoke about this and at differant times.

When Kevin was discussing who the Pacers would let go vs. keep the topic came up of Austin. I'll spare you the specifics of his thoughts on this, but at one point in time he hypothisized about Austin being kept around for leadership.

Kevin Lee then made it a point to say, unprovoked, that this time around Austin could be a leader because the last time he was here Jermaine O'Neal was the SELF annointed leader of the team and would not allow for Austin to be a leader. He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that (& this is the part I found fascinating) MANY of the players resented this.

Denari was on later talking about his conversation with Roy Hibbert. He stated that Roy said that he felt obligated to play well because both Rasho and Jeff had gone out of their way to help him be a better player and that neither of them were resentfull or competing with him for min. on the floor. BTW, this converastion say's a lot (& I mean a LOT) about Foster & Rasho not to mention Roy.

Then Denari goes on to make this statement (again unproked from a caller). He said that this is the single biggest change he has seen from the team over the past couple of years. You have players playing for each other and helping each other get better and that there is no hidden agenda's or some players trying to keep other players down.

You can take that as you want to, however listening to the conversation the context certainly screamed Jermain O'Neal to me.

I said on here about 4-5 years ago that when he was gone people would start to hear about some of the behind the scenes shinnanigans he was pulling. I think this is just the beginning and believe me from what I've heard over the years this is just the tip of the ice berg.

Ok, now back to the game.

I'll say it right now.

Every min. that Marquis Daniels is on the floor this season, is a min. that should go to Brandon Rush.

Look I don't know the guy from Adam because I don't follow college ball. But I think I know a pro basketball player when I see one and certainly during that game I saw a pro basketball player.

Uncle Buck wasn't at this game so he missed out on what surely would have been one of his favorite things. Defense being played on the wings.

Look we can all gush over Hibbert all we want, and believe me I will, but let us not overlook that game by Rush. Forget the sweet stroke he was putting up because we all know that can come and go, focus on that defense he was playing. The guy was downright disrupting play. He was deflecting passes, he was blocking shots, he was using that massive wingspan to make the guards throw sloppy passes.

Overall this was not the defense played by a rookie. Hell this was some of the best wing defense since, well since Satan roamed our courts. Yes, I know Artest. I'm trying to block him from my mind.;)

Anyway again I will say if this guy can play 1/3 as well during the regular season we have one hell of a find.

Hibbert. Anything you want to say about him is probably true. He just took over in the second half and started to play above and beyond the Memphis big men.

I don't want to get caught up in the hyperbole surrounding him right now, but I want to say this.

I love to watch Roy Hibbert play basketball. Frankly, it's just fun to watch.

As to people complaining about him getting two boards off of tipping on the offensive end. Meh... Foster would lose about half of his rebounds if we only counted true rebounds anyway over the years so I think we can let Roy have these two.

He is getting better on defense. He is not losing his player while chasing the ball like he did the first couple of games.

He can pass, he can shoot, he can block and he can crow. By God, HE IS THE PAN!!!!:dance::dance:

However while each of them playing individually was fun to watch, nothing can beat the give and go and pick and roll these two were running together.

I kept seeing that and thinking to myself, this is the franchise for the next 5-8 years and I like it.

Also am I wrong here or did the offense seem differant last nigh? No, not just the fact that we were actually hitting shots. I mean did it look more structured and less garbage sling the three that I have come to know and loath?

Could just be that Memphis sucks at defense so maybe, but something about this looked differant.

Ok, while it is great to see the rookies go at it let us not forget another player who was outstanding.

THAT is the Jaret Jack that I thought we were getting. This guy just downright tore up the Memphis back court with his defense. He and Rush together were just downright murder on the Griz. His offense was outstanding as well. He seemed much more in control of the team when he was on the floor. He didn't hit a single field goal but I believe he was a catalyst for our teams success in the second half.

Just think a year ago p.g. was our weakest single spot on the floor. Now it is one of our strengths. Bird has done an outstanding job of rebuilding this train wreck with the assets he had available.

In reality there was no bad player for our team. Everybody that played contributed.

To me though, if I were to make a choice as to the single biggest differance between this game and other is the team defense. We were very very very disruptive to the Grizzlies.

granger33
10-18-2008, 05:03 AM
Kevin Lee then made it a point to say, unprovoked, that this time around Austin could be a leader because the last time he was here Jermaine O'Neal was the SELF annointed leader of the team and would not allow for Austin to be a leader. He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that (& this is the part I found fascinating) MANY of the players resented this.
wow, thats very interesting. very. Does this somehow involve Reggie in anyway? Did Jermaine take the leadership over Reggie?


I love to watch Roy Hibbert play basketball. Frankly, it's just fun to watch.
Ah me too man. Much wrather watching Roy Hibbert Post up then JO did in the past 2 seasons. JO was a great contributor. But c'mon, in the past 2 seasons he did nothing but watch on the sidelines and miss clutch shots. He has always had great character and I know he loved Indiana at heart, I mean before that he was my favourite player in the league. But he has really just gone down hill from the brawl and I am very pleased and excited for what Larry Bird has done to this team. The Past 2 seasons I wasn't really excited. But with Brandon Rush, Big Roy Hibbert coming off the bench I am truley excited.

Picturing Mike Dunleavy's 1st year in the playoffs, Danny's 1st year in there as a leader with all the new rookies just gives me shivers.

Great Post Peck but you did lie once.


Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours

kester99
10-18-2008, 06:06 AM
It would be nice to think that Hibbert and Rush could capture the imagination of the Indiana public...combine it with a return to the playoffs (a win or three couldn't hurt), and I could see attendance and caring in general begin to return to reggie-levels.

Will Galen
10-18-2008, 06:07 AM
Great Post Peck but you did lie once.

He didn't lie, that was a short one for Peck.

It appears to me we don't really need a post presence, we have guys that can score in the paint. Nest(?) and Hibbert.

We have guards that can not only score but play defense. Jack, Rush, Ford.

So . . . if we have someone that can finish games and be our go to guy we are going to contend. By that I mean we are going to be smack dab in the middle of the playoffs.

I'm ready to pay Tinsley off and go with this team.

Now for the flip side . . . I still remember when Tinsley opened the season with 23 assists . . . who knew that would be the highlite of his Pacer career? Or maybe his highlite was the dustpan? Hmmm . . .

idioteque
10-18-2008, 08:38 AM
Peck, I think Rush's style of play is going to render him the kind of player we'll take for granted even if he peaks.

Rush at his peak I see as a good defender with a sweet stroke, but not a whole lot of ability to drive to the hoop and slam it in someone's face on a regular basis. A glue guy that does things on a nightly basis that help the team win, but rarely makes the highlight reels.

Anthem
10-18-2008, 09:04 AM
Good post Peck. Only thing I'll disagree with (because we've had this conversation a billion times) is that Jermaine wasn't the self-appointed leader in any sense. Reggie (and Thomas, if I remember correctly) was shoving that mantle on him almost as soon as he got here.

But yes, I agree that I'd love for Marquis to get his minutes behind Rush instead of vice versa.

Smoothdave1
10-18-2008, 09:32 AM
The thing is, I think JO felt obligated to try and be the leader due to his massive deal. I think he looked at the situation and said hey, I am making 20+ mil a year and I need to step up and be a leader for this team. I don't know that ever happened. I saw a quote/comment from Walsh or Bird a few weeks ago saying something along the lines of "the highest paid player isn't automatically your leader" and I wondered if it was a shot at JO?

With that said, I LOVE the way the young guys and the team are getting along and seem to be gelling. People want to talk about Portland and their young nucleus, but don't forget about Indy. With guys like Rush, Hibbert, Granger, Jack, Ford and even Dunleavy and even to a lesser extent role players in Diener, McRoberts, Graham, etc. the Pacers are on the right track in terms of building a cohesive unit.

Bball
10-18-2008, 09:34 AM
Good post Peck. Only thing I'll disagree with (because we've had this conversation a billion times) is that Jermaine wasn't the self-appointed leader in any sense. Reggie (and Thomas, if I remember correctly) was shoving that mantle on him almost as soon as he got here.

But yes, I agree that I'd love for Marquis to get his minutes behind Rush instead of vice versa.

Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.

I realize it's only the preseason but a weight just seems lifted from the team. I'm willing to bet a big part of that weight is in Toronto. Another part of it is at home collecting 21 million dollars. Whatever it is, I like what I see so far.

I have no idea why a Chicago J is down on TJ Ford... unless it's all worry about his ability to play with his spine problem. Ford is clearly starting material.

McKeyFan
10-18-2008, 09:57 AM
It appears to me we don't really need a post presence, we have guys that can score in the paint. Nest(?) and Hibbert.


I'm hoping and crossing my fingers on that one.

Wouldn't that solve a bunch of problems?

This is interesting stuff about Jermaine holding back other leaders. What a clusterF... that whole thing was. Looking forward to the future.

Peck is the microwave of PD. Posts very irregularly, but when he does, it's always interesting.

mildlysane
10-18-2008, 10:47 AM
I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.

BillS
10-18-2008, 01:03 PM
I'm drinking me some of that Hibbert Ade with a side of TJ Ford Wings.

I spent a lot of time watching Roy and noticed one of the huge differences between him and the usual BWS (in which category I include Harrison as an honorary member).

He has ankles that move.

Far too many times, someone with size and bulk will come down flat on their entire foot, while running and jumping. Rasho does it a lot, Harrision did it, even Rik tended to do it.

Hibbert actually elevates onto the ball of his foot and uses it as a pivot point. When he runs, he doesn't look like he is gallumphing down the court. In other owrds, he seems more flexible.

There were a couple of situations where Harrison would have been called for a foul that Roy avoided by actually using his body to move the potentially offending appendage (arm once, legs once) out of the way. I was <i>very</i> happy to see that - the main one being when he went up over (defender I can't remember) and actually pushed his own legs back to avoid giving a charge. What a great move.

And Ford running the point - I'm loving me some speed and agility and court vision. His size causes some matchup problems defensively but his speed makes up for a lot on the offensive side.

ABADays
10-18-2008, 01:09 PM
You'll be happy to know the enthusiasm of this thread traveled more than 6,000 miles. My only regret is that, unless something changes, I will not be able to hear any of it.

Peck, you and I usually see things through the same eyes. This was a great post.

imawhat
10-18-2008, 01:47 PM
Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.

I agree with this, to an extent. Reggie pushed it on JO, then Larry publicly declared JO as the leader, he failed, and then followed the resentment.

Back to Peck's o.p., Austin WAS the leader of the '05-'06 team. Austin was calling team-only meetings and the players were responding to him. I wish I dig up some of his post-game quotes.

I am 100% certain that this conflict is one of the reasons that Austin was traded to Dallas. There's no way we were getting rid of Jermaine, and he was unwilling to share leadership. Of course this is all speculation, but like Peck, I expect that we'll continue to hear stories of the past that confirm this.




I have no idea why a Chicago J is down on TJ Ford... unless it's all worry about his ability to play with his spine problem. Ford is clearly starting material.


I assume J is down on both Ford and Jack because they both "lost" their starting PG jobs.

I'm still dumbfounded as to why Calderon and Blake were starting. I think both coaches made mistakes, and I'm relieved the Pacers are sitting here with Ford and Jack instead of Calderon and Blake.

TJ Ford might be the best player on our team. Even a majority of fans in Toronto though Ford was better than Calderon. There was a thread on the Toronto boards about who should be traded. Almost 100% of the pro-Calderon posters would've traded Ford based on his health, not his basketball playing. And after the trade, the tone in that thread changed to "maybe we shouldn't have traded him". Knowing the way we talk about traded players around here, I think that speaks volumes.

Aside from the illusion that he's injury-prone, one of the biggest knocks on TJ is that he is prone to calling his own number (like Tinsley). I think it's a valid knock, but I don't think O'Brien will mind, especially on a team without a go-to player.

Pacers4Life
10-18-2008, 01:50 PM
Ok, this will probably be a short one as I have to be up in a few hours.



He can pass, he can shoot, he can block and he can crow. By God, HE IS THE PAN!!!!:dance::dance:



I thought this was the greatest line drop ever.

imawhat
10-18-2008, 02:07 PM
JO was a great contributor. But c'mon, in the past 2 seasons he did nothing but watch on the sidelines and miss clutch shots.

As much as I don't like Jermaine, this simply isn't true. 2 years ago, Jermaine was a legitimated contender for Defensive Player of the Year. Even with his missed games, I believe he should've won the award over Camby.

And I thought he showed significant progress last year, even on one leg. It was the most I've ever seen him involve/defer to other players. There's no way we go 11-5 to close the year without Jermaine.



Now for the flip side . . . I still remember when Tinsley opened the season with 23 assists . . . who knew that would be the highlite of his Pacer career? Or maybe his highlite was the dustpan? Hmmm . . .

He did that in the Thanksgiving night game vs. MJ and the Wizards. It was one of the best individual games I've seen in person. Rookie Tinsley was a completely different player.

grace
10-18-2008, 02:09 PM
Maybe they should've said that JO failed at leadership but refused to relinquish the role to players who were better liked by their teammates and were capable of naturally assuming the role. JO's failures both as a player and a leader, and refusal to acknowledge these shortcomings, ended up causing resentment.

I totally agree. Yes Reggie and probably Larry pushed JO to be a leader, but considering he refused to call himself a center he should have refused to be the leader and let those who could actually be leaders take on that role. Instead of worrying about his ego he could have said "I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. Austin (or someone else) is a great team leader. I'll do all I can to help get us to the championship" or something like that.

grace
10-18-2008, 02:12 PM
I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.

At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.

juadam09
10-18-2008, 02:26 PM
At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.

I remember that quote and at the time I assumed he was talking about Tinsley. I have felt that since the brawl the only way this franchise was really going to "turn around" was to keep everyone a fresh start and cut out this "retooling" BS and "rebuild".

With that said I was preparing for a project for a West Africa class with my fellow group members when a few of their friends walked up. They started talking basketball and I mentioned I wished I could watch more but as of late I have not had time. They asked who my team was and I replied "The Pacers". Two of them looked at me before the one said "Indiana still has a basketball team?". (for the record he claimed he was a Celtics fan) We are heading in the right direction but we still have a lot of work to do.

Tom White
10-18-2008, 02:40 PM
I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.

I've quoted that line of Reggie's myself. It was something to the effect that Artest was not the biggest problem on that team. One of my first thoughts was O'Neal, and I still think so. Another thought was about the unequal treatment of the players by Carlisle, but I don't think that was what he really had in mind. Do you remember when the Pacers traded James Jones that Reggie also made the statement that JJ was one of the few players that would listen to him?

Pacemaker
10-18-2008, 02:46 PM
What a draft !!!!!! Bayless who ?

Anthem
10-18-2008, 02:55 PM
He did that in the Thanksgiving night game vs. MJ and the Wizards. It was one of the best individual games I've seen in person. Rookie Tinsley was a completely different player.
Beginnning of the sophmore year was good too. Everything changed when his mom died.

BlueNGold
10-18-2008, 03:17 PM
Now.....what was poor Jeff Foster saying shortly after the trade?

Maybe Kevin Lee can help clarify: "He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that MANY of the players resented this."

Many? HOW MANY? Now, that doesn't make for a happy locker room, now does it?

Of course, no amount of evidence...

imawhat
10-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Now.....what was poor Jeff Foster saying shortly after the trade?

Maybe Kevin Lee can help clarify: "He then went on to say that Jermaine would not accept leadership from anyone else and that MANY of the players resented this."

Many? HOW MANY? Now, that doesn't make for a happy locker room, now does it?

Of course, no amount of evidence...


There were so many problems that it's hard to keep track.

We've heard:

-Foster's comments on O'Neal
-Saras' comments on Fred Jones/other teammates
-Anthony Johnson's post-playoff comments
-Kevin Lee's comments last night
-Larry's post-trade leadership comments
-Reggie's post retirement comments
-Austin's late season ('05-'06) comments


What else?

imawhat
10-18-2008, 03:26 PM
Beginnning of the sophmore year was good too. Everything changed when his mom died.

This is true. The 2nd half of that season was one of the most depressing halves.

Naptown_Seth
10-18-2008, 03:57 PM
ONE

At the time Reggie said that a lot of people around here assumed he was talking about Anthony Johnson.
Mostly because AJ was showing a post-Pacers track record to make this seem likely. Let's not let a JO scapegoat protect the many other issues in the lockerroom, and in fairness to JO the guy running this thread has had a Dale vs JO grudge since day 1. I don't discount Peck's opinion or that he might be right, but let's also keep the viewpoints on the table where everyone can see them. If you go into something looking for issues you are going to find them.

It's not like the team has yet run off a massive streak of wins, just like removing Rick didn't magically fix one damn thing last year.

To me this is typical new season stuff: all the problems were the other guys, that was last year, and so on. I'm not anti-optimism, I just don't want it to come at the expense of rational thought.

JO took a lot of charges and played with pain many times, as well as hurrying back from injuries. Maybe his ego caused problems enough to counter all that good but let's not string him up as all that was wrong.

By adding up the attitudes of Tins, JO, Ron, AJ and Harrington it sounds like to me Rick Carlisle (yes, this is my personal agenda I admit) must have been the greatest coach ever to not only salvage the season but to win 61 games with the worst teammates ever to coexist in a locker room. Let's not forget the existance of the two headed front office at the time.


TWO
That bit of commentary doesn't mean I haven't seen every move other than the Williams deal to be a good one this year. And with Williams it's more a case of a forced deal just for the sake of doing it rather than riding it out to see what develops with a vastly different set of influences in the locker room. I'm not asking for JO to return and I'm very pleased with that trade...I'm the one who ran up the "I don't care if Hibbert flops" thread for chrissake, I'm supportive as hell on this topic.

Let's just be sensible about the blame game. Clearly something was working prior to the GS trade enough to hold things together when they shouldn't have. Maybe it wasn't Dun/Troy coming that was the issue but a sour JO/Tins following the loss of Jack/Al, but that only shows that the disfunction could be made to produce to a degree.


THREE

Look I don't know the guy from Adam because I don't follow college ball. But I think I know a pro basketball player when I see one and certainly during that game I saw a pro basketball player.Take a look back now to that college prospect thread and check it for my posts on Rush then. I still strongly believe in his game transferring to the pros. He stood out, just keep the expectations to 6th man, modest starter with an all-around game.

BTW, same with Mayo, Love and yes Bayless. This was a pretty decent draft class. And if Hibbert stays on course and continues to maximize his ability to fit the NBA game it will be even more impressive (I was in the smart, good guy but too slow camp).

Last year people wanted to tank and hold onto that Acie Law pick. Keep that foresight in mind when they start drumming up that racket this year or in the future, especially when we compare Jarret Jack/BRush to Acie Law since that's the compromise that would have been made if they'd tanked to #10 for the prior draft.

The Pacers lost a pick in a thinner draft and got into a solid one, despite the hype being basically opposite of that. Heck, deep down I would even be willing to credit Bird for being that savvy if it could be proven somehow.
:)

Trader Joe
10-18-2008, 03:58 PM
I'll take Peck's point on Quis and expand on it, any minute Marquis Daniel's gets this year should be going to ANYONE else.

Naptown_Seth
10-18-2008, 04:15 PM
Reggie (and Thomas, if I remember correctly) was shoving that mantle on him almost as soon as he got here.Let's not forget Bird, he was the worst about it, basically demanding that JO step up and lead since he was the star player and should be that guy. There was no end to the enablers on that front.



QUIS - I have been a moderate fan of his game, but I'll agree that Rush is a better fit at SG to be that all-purpose type. You don't need the extra PG or SF now and Quis has never had the outside jumper to be a SG threat. I'm not ready to run the guy off the team but I do think he's more suited to work off the bench in varying spots from game to game.

count55
10-18-2008, 04:30 PM
So...Hibbert, Rush, Ford, & Jack all look like pretty good pickups, doncha think?

BlueNGold
10-18-2008, 04:32 PM
There were so many problems that it's hard to keep track.

We've heard:

-Foster's comments on O'Neal
-Saras' comments on Fred Jones/other teammates
-Anthony Johnson's post-playoff comments
-Kevin Lee's comments last night
-Larry's post-trade leadership comments
-Reggie's post retirement comments
-Austin's late season ('05-'06) comments


What else?

I agree, there have been a spray of comments by multiple players touching on different issues. It had not been a happy bunch. In fact, where JO is technically ranked in terms of issues is unknown to most people here including me. However, Foster's timely comments (amazingly made right after the trade by mere coincidence...lol) and the comments above are a window into some fairly major team issues.

Anyway, fortunately, most of the issues have been eradicated and the honeymoon with Ford, Hibbert, Rush, et. al. is on. To be sure, the exorcist did some good work this summer. The feeling of warmth of the bright rising sun is undeniable now that JO is out of the country and a real man, Roy Hibbert, is patrolling the paint and scoring efficiently. That "throw-in" ,TJ Ford, is not a bad player either. ...oh, and are new starting center (Rasho) is ok too. Ha, not a bad trade....we will even get a huge salary cut.
Yes, life is good. :happydanc

Doddage
10-18-2008, 05:42 PM
Yep... it's amazing at this time last year, we all were talking about having arguably the worst backcourt in the league, and now we have a pretty deep one.

Bball
10-18-2008, 07:49 PM
I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.


I usually figured that to be Tinsley.

McKeyFan
10-19-2008, 01:06 AM
I remember a quote from Reggie after he retired....something about the turmoil in the lockerroom and that it WASN'T Artest that was the problem. Perhaps this is what he was talking about.

I always thought Reg was referring to Tinsley.

Naptown_Seth
10-21-2008, 12:50 AM
So...Hibbert, Rush, Ford, & Jack all look like pretty good pickups, doncha think?
I'm biased. I thought both deals were huge successes that met the team needs perfectly. I have no problem as a Bird critic recognizing that effort as a big hit, even if the players end up flopping. These deals look like the smartest play they could make for where they were and where they wanted to head.

I expect a lot of losses this year, but I also expect to see the beginning of a growth into something great in perhaps 2 seasons. I hope it happens because some of us have been on those rides before and they are the best.


My guy might be Rush, but I gotta say that it sure looks like Ford is clearly the most talented addition of the off season. It's been since Jax that this team has had a really high quality reliable PG and so far Ford appears ready to fit that role.

I won't deny Tinsley's efforts, I was a big fan and often thought he was close to breaking out to the next level. It's just that in the end he really turned out to be more flash than substance. If he'd had just decent leadership skills and health (if that was really an issue) he could have been that great PG.

Anyway, I look forward to a massive upgrade at the PG rotation after years of Eddie Gill and AJ as staples, with dashes of Fred Jones and Quis. It's hard to fathom really.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 12:31 PM
I have no idea why a Chicago J is down on TJ Ford... unless it's all worry about his ability to play with his spine problem. Ford is clearly starting material.

As we discussed years ago, I like PGs that can Point (and SGs that can Shoot).

Seriously, however, I've been vague about my dislike of his game because I know I don't like to watch him play, and because I don't like to watch him play I haven't watched him play enough to properly articulate why I don't like to watch him play.

But here goes:

He has to prove to me that he isn't Travis Best 2.0 (or Travis Best 3.0 if Fred Jones turned into Travis Best 2.0). Undersized but quick/ explosive. Can't finish consistently. Can't find teammates when he drives. Undersized.

I'm not convinced that he uses his dribble penetration ability properly (to set up teammates instead of himself), and I believe that is the reason he lost his starting spots in Milwaukee and Toronto.

I think very few undersized PGs have the ability to see the court well and distribute the ball well. I don't think he has what it takes to play "big enough."

Putnam
10-21-2008, 12:36 PM
I'm not convinced that (Ford) uses his dribble penetration ability properly (to set up teammates instead of himself), and I believe that is the reason he lost his starting spots in Milwaukee and Toronto.

I think very few undersized PGs have the ability to see the court well and distribute the ball well. I don't think he has what it takes to play "big enough."


This echoes an issue thunderbird1245 raised in his thread a few weeks ago.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=776306&postcount=1


Because Ford can beat his man off the dribble in the center of the floor much easier than our past players, he will be a couple of steps into the paint further than our wings are accumstomed to. Early on, you may see some awkward plays as Ford drives in so deep that our wings are open for spot up 3 opportunities, but are BEHIND the ball and sight line of Ford, thereby being unable to be seen by our dimunitive point guard.

I want to see how our wings and coaching staff handle this situation, because it is going to happen.

His ability and willingness to drive the ball deeper into the paint should result in less passes to the wing perimeter areas, and more dump offs to our bigs for dunks, or to the deep corners for three point shots.

I want to see what happens with Ford when teams are faced with the choice of helping cut off his drives by coming off of Dunleavy, Granger, and Rush, or with letting Ford attempt to finish shots in the paint himself. If I'm coaching against Indiana, I think Im trying to make Ford a finisher in traffic instead of being a passer.

Peck
10-21-2008, 12:37 PM
As we discussed years ago, I like PGs that can Point (and SGs that can Shoot).

Seriously, however, I've been vague about my dislike of his game because I know I don't like to watch him play, and because I don't like to watch him play I haven't watched him play enough to properly articulate why I don't like to watch him play.

But here goes:

He has to prove to me that he isn't Travis Best 2.0 (or Travis Best 3.0 if Fred Jones turned into Travis Best 2.0). Undersized but quick/ explosive. Can't finish consistently. Can't find teammates when he drives. Undersized.

I'm not convinced that he uses his dribble penetration ability properly (to set up teammates instead of himself), and I believe that is the reason he lost his starting spots in Milwaukee and Toronto.

I think very few undersized PGs have the ability to see the court well and distribute the ball well. I don't think he has what it takes to play "big enough."

Remember all of those years I started out every post I started about J.O. that I would put a disclaimer that I was a Dale Davis fan and Jermaine was traded for Dale Davis that even though I did not believe that it affected my thoughts on the matter it was there for people to throw out my opinion if they wanted to?

Well...........

Putnam
10-21-2008, 12:43 PM
Remember all of those years I started out every post I started about J.O. that I would put a disclaimer that I was a Dale Davis fan and Jermaine was traded for Dale Davis that even though I did not believe that it affected my thoughts on the matter it was there for people to throw out my opinion if they wanted to?

Well...........


http://neverneutral.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/monty-python.jpg

Good retort, Peck!

Major Cold
10-21-2008, 12:48 PM
As we discussed years ago, I like PGs that can Point
How many fingers can they point with?
http://boogiespotblog.quickdfw.com/archives/2008/08/03/nba_g_kidd_580.jpg

(and SGs that can Shoot).
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w108/danderdon/10072006.jpg

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 12:49 PM
Because I like Mark Jackson and Vern Flemming?

And hoped Tinsley would be better at fulfilling the "next Mark Jackson" potential that he teased us with?

Its certainly true that I have an opinion on how the PG position should be played, and if you don't agree with that opinion then you should just ignore what I've got to say on that topic. The "undersized" concern is the same reason I was souring on Micheal Williams - even though I was originally a big fan of him - around the time he was traded (but dear God, Pooh was just terrible.)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You will appreciate this:

I haven't really made this declaration yet, but the PF we need to draft - for the roster that Bird is assembling - needs to be the reincarnation of Buck Williams (or you can call it "Dale Davis with an acceptable FT%" if you'd like).

With this roster, I'd rather have a 12-12 brusing rebounder at PF (assuming he can hit his FTs) than a 20-10 ASG guy or a three-point shooter.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 12:57 PM
This echoes an issue thunderbird1245 raised in his thread a few weeks ago.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=776306&postcount=1

Maybe. No disrespect to TBird, but I never have time to read his threads. Too much substance and not enough style/ flash. Getting through an Odd Thoughts post takes almost all the concentration ability I've got.

Los Angeles
10-21-2008, 01:08 PM
All it takes is one glance at ford's stat line to see that he can set up his teammates. He lost his starting job in Toronto because of injury not game play.

If we follow jay's point guard criteria then Steve Nash is not a good point guard.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 01:23 PM
How so? Nash is 6'3" and uses dribble penetration FIRST to set up teammates and second to score himself. He's a career 10 shot per game guy. I think he's overrated when he's winning MVP awards, but what's not to like? I'm not saying Ford shoots much. I'm saying he sets up his own shot instead of setting up teammates.

From a PG, 10 FGAs per game from Jackson, Tinsley, Ford, Nash, etc. doesn't bother me. 15 FGAs from Tinsley and Micheal Williams does - that's too many.

To your first paragraph, I disagree entirely and you can't get that info from a traditional stat line.

Does Ford get assists off drive-and-dish plays? Interior passes? PnR situations? Fast breaks? Rotating the ball along the perimeter? Other?

Obviously, all assists are important but when evaluating a PG I put higher stock on the higher quality (more difficult) assists than a high quantity of assists. A big part of Jackson's, Nash's and even Tinsley's ability to "thread the needle" was that at 6'3" they are big enough that they can see where to put the ball.

When I see him consistently setting Hibbert up for dunks/ layups off the PnR, (instead of merely passing the ball around the perimeter while the defense rotates) I'll say I was wrong.

makaveli
10-21-2008, 01:28 PM
As we discussed years ago, I like PGs that can Point (and SGs that can Shoot).

Seriously, however, I've been vague about my dislike of his game because I know I don't like to watch him play, and because I don't like to watch him play I haven't watched him play enough to properly articulate why I don't like to watch him play.

But here goes:

He has to prove to me that he isn't Travis Best 2.0 (or Travis Best 3.0 if Fred Jones turned into Travis Best 2.0). Undersized but quick/ explosive. Can't finish consistently. Can't find teammates when he drives. Undersized.

I'm not convinced that he uses his dribble penetration ability properly (to set up teammates instead of himself), and I believe that is the reason he lost his starting spots in Milwaukee and Toronto.

I think very few undersized PGs have the ability to see the court well and distribute the ball well. I don't think he has what it takes to play "big enough."

I agree that I also like my point guards to set up teammates instead of setting up themselves. (I DESPISED Kevin Johnson's game!) The thing I think that is being forgotten here, is that this is a "running" team. However undersized your point guard is, if he is fast enough that the defense is behind him, it shouldn't matter much. Now I know every possession won't come off the break, but the potential is that a high percentage of them could. For that reason, I believe TJ is an excellent choice to run this team. One thing that is indisputable is that he is Q-U-I-C-K!

Let me also add in Travis's defense, and trust me I never thought I would ever defend Travis, there was nobody to run the floor with him. I don't see that being a problem with this group.

docpaul
10-21-2008, 01:41 PM
Man, this was a hell of a good read...

Thanks thread!

Los Angeles
10-21-2008, 01:43 PM
I only have a few moments before I have to leave for Physical Therapy, so this is going to have to be short and sweet.

OK, I already know that I've gone way too far in comparing Nash to Ford. So let's state right now for the record that they are not exactly comparable players. In fact it's unfair to both players to mention them in the same sentence.

Nash's Assist to (personal) PPG ratio is nearly identical to Ford's.

Now, I've watched a lot of TJ this past year (he's a player on my fantasy team) so I've come to know him fairly well. The primary difference between them is this: Nash developed into an absolute expert at the point - making decisions with uncanny speed and accuracy. His brain is nearly unparalleled in this department.

Ford by contrast is young and often reckless with both his cutting and his passing. But that's not to say that he isn't out there calling other people's numbers first. You just don't score only 12 PPG in 30 minutes as a point guard if your first instinct is to call your own shots.

We agree on the role of the point guard. We just happen to disagree that Ford fits what you are saying. Ford usually calls his own number when he doesn't have a clear kick out or when he's just too damn close to the basket to not take it. (Surely we can agree that going for the uncontested layup is better than the uncontested 3?).

With time, I really hope that Ford will fine-tune his decision making. his problem isn't that he's selfish. It's that he's often reckless.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 02:10 PM
Fine points.

It looks to me that he's got tunnel-vision. But I've also been saying that I don't watch him play much.

If he's not on the court with Brandon and Roy much this season, I'll probably FF my TiVo right through him again this year.

Anthem
10-21-2008, 02:33 PM
When I see him consistently setting Hibbert up for dunks/ layups off the PnR, (instead of merely passing the ball around the perimeter while the defense rotates) I'll say I was wrong.
Seems fair.

Since86
10-21-2008, 03:31 PM
I dunno if you've forgotten the play of Travis Best or not, because I don't know how you can watch TJ and be reminded of a shotclock waster like TB.

TJ doesn't hang on to the ball, nor does he look for his shot as a first option. They are about as opposite as can be.

BillS
10-21-2008, 04:14 PM
I have to say that my impressions (because I didn't keep a detailed stat sheet) are that Ford is nowhere near the ballhog that Travis was - at least, I've never been able to count dribble dribble dribble dribble with him.

As far as the PnR, I've seen it executed a couple of times between TJ and Hibbert but nothing sticks in my mind specifically.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 05:24 PM
I dunno if you've forgotten the play of Travis Best or not, because I don't know how you can watch TJ and be reminded of a shotclock waster like TB.

TJ doesn't hang on to the ball, nor does he look for his shot as a first option. They are about as opposite as can be.

I keep telling you guys that I can't stand to watch Ford play so I don't watch him. I haven't seen any of the preseason games yet. I'm just telling you why I don't like his game and I'm doing it primarily from a "why I don't like to watch him" memory.

I'm talking about the ability to explode to the rim just to get to the inevitable blocked layup. Travis was never able to find the guy that is open on the weakside and making (what should be) an obvious backdoor cut (because it was his man that rotated over to block the shot.)

I obviously didn't care for Travis's excessive stand-in-place dribbling, but his rarely (if ever) successful dribble drives to the basket really infuriated me. I would rather he just aimlessly dribble away the shot clock than drive in, get his shot swatted away, and get the opponent running on a momentum changing fast break.

BillS
10-21-2008, 05:34 PM
I'm talking about the ability to explode to the rim just to get to the inevitable blocked layup.

I've not seen a single blocked layup when Ford explodes to the rim. Some fouls drawn and some misses, but Ford definitely has the ability to finish what he starts.

I'll have to watch to see if there are circumstances in which other men are open when he gets into his drive - this is more likely to happen later as the season gets rolling and defenders decide to close in on Ford when he comes through.

However, I really have to say that you should watch this guy. He is about as much like Travis Best as a real apple is like a wax apple. Both look the same, they can even fulfill some of the same functions, but only one can feed you.

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 05:37 PM
I agree that I also like my point guards to set up teammates instead of setting up themselves. (I DESPISED Kevin Johnson's game!) The thing I think that is being forgotten here, is that this is a "running" team. However undersized your point guard is, if he is fast enough that the defense is behind him, it shouldn't matter much. Now I know every possession won't come off the break, but the potential is that a high percentage of them could. For that reason, I believe TJ is an excellent choice to run this team. One thing that is indisputable is that he is Q-U-I-C-K!

Let me also add in Travis's defense, and trust me I never thought I would ever defend Travis, there was nobody to run the floor with him. I don't see that being a problem with this group.

A) With only three posts, I hope somebody has given you the proper welcome. If not, let me do so.

:welcome:

B) Defending Travis isn't really that hard. Just stand a couple of steps backs and let him be content to dribble. Don't worry about his quickness - if he goes past you he's still the easiest shot to block in the entire league. He doesn't get much lift and he lays it up soft, so a decent shotblocker doesn't just get to swat it, they can direct it right to a teammate.

:D

ChicagoJ
10-21-2008, 05:44 PM
I've not seen a single blocked layup when Ford explodes to the rim. Some fouls drawn and some misses, but Ford definitely has the ability to finish what he starts.

I'll have to watch to see if there are circumstances in which other men are open when he gets into his drive - this is more likely to happen later as the season gets rolling and defenders decide to close in on Ford when he comes through.

However, I really have to say that you should watch this guy. He is about as much like Travis Best as a real apple is like a wax apple. Both look the same, they can even fulfill some of the same functions, but only one can feed you.

That's fair, and hopefully my opinion of him improves as the season progresses and I start watching games. I don't think he's as good as advertised, or as hyped on PD. But he's obviously good enough to be in an NBA team's rotation. I do think it is appropriate to question whether or not he is the right PG for this team after his current contract expires. As we go through a two/three year rebuilding process, he's a fine choice because at the very least, PG is too important of a position to be a team's weakest spot.

Anthem
10-21-2008, 07:37 PM
I do think it is appropriate to question whether or not he is the right PG for this team after his current contract expires.
Talk about the long view. We don't have anybody under contract once his expires..

Merz
10-22-2008, 02:08 AM
I keep telling you guys that I can't stand to watch Ford play so I don't watch him. I haven't seen any of the preseason games yet. I'm just telling you why I don't like his game and I'm doing it primarily from a "why I don't like to watch him" memory.

I'm talking about the ability to explode to the rim just to get to the inevitable blocked layup. Travis was never able to find the guy that is open on the weakside and making (what should be) an obvious backdoor cut (because it was his man that rotated over to block the shot.)

I obviously didn't care for Travis's excessive stand-in-place dribbling, but his rarely (if ever) successful dribble drives to the basket really infuriated me. I would rather he just aimlessly dribble away the shot clock than drive in, get his shot swatted away, and get the opponent running on a momentum changing fast break.

Please, please, please stop comparing Ford to Best. You say you don't watch the guy play and you think you're in the position to argue about how he plays and about his flaws. I'm sorry, but how does that work? Hmm...Ford is short and fast, so is Travis...they must certainly play the same type of game. Let me try that...Hmm...you live in Chicago and I'm going to assume you are a caucasion male (I've never seen you but that souldn't stop me from assuming you're a certain way). Al Capone lived in Chicago and was a white man. Hmmm...You're a gangster aren't you. You must be...you're just like Capone.

If you're going to argue please have some prior knowledge (I know it's a free country and you can argue all you want, but please inform yourself) of what you're arguing. You're not going to vote for the president because of their measurables are you. They have different policies just like Ford and Best have different games.

Ford has been a pass-first guy his whole career with occasional bouts of ball-hogging. Ford penetrates without the prior mindset to shoot or pass...he reacts to the D. They collapse...he kicks it out. They don't...he ussually has a layup.

Most guys like best where undersized two-guards in college who just scored and didn't get many assist. TJ Ford led the nation in assist as a freshman at Texas. He wasn't just an undersized two-guard. He is a true point.

imawhat
10-22-2008, 03:06 AM
Seriously, however, I've been vague about my dislike of his game because I know I don't like to watch him play, and because I don't like to watch him play I haven't watched him play enough to properly articulate why I don't like to watch him play.
.

Well, you've properly articulated that you don't think he's starting material.

Seriously though, I think this will change if you plan on watching Pacers games. You'll see what he can/can't do, and I think you could change your mind on how good he is.

Peck
10-22-2008, 03:24 AM
Please, please, please stop comparing Ford to Best. You say you don't watch the guy play and you think you're in the position to argue about how he plays and about his flaws. I'm sorry, but how does that work? Hmm...Ford is short and fast, so is Travis...they must certainly play the same type of game. Let me try that...Hmm...you live in Chicago and I'm going to assume you are a caucasion male (I've never seen you but that souldn't stop me from assuming you're a certain way). Al Capone lived in Chicago and was a white man. Hmmm...You're a gangster aren't you. You must be...you're just like Capone.

If you're going to argue please have some prior knowledge (I know it's a free country and you can argue all you want, but please inform yourself) of what you're arguing. You're not going to vote for the president because of their measurables are you. They have different policies just like Ford and Best have different games.

Ford has been a pass-first guy his whole career with occasional bouts of ball-hogging. Ford penetrates without the prior mindset to shoot or pass...he reacts to the D. They collapse...he kicks it out. They don't...he ussually has a layup.

Most guys like best where undersized two-guards in college who just scored and didn't get many assist. TJ Ford led the nation in assist as a freshman at Texas. He wasn't just an undersized two-guard. He is a true point.

Close, he's a corperate accountant. :p

McKeyFan
10-22-2008, 07:54 AM
TJ Ford led the nation in assist as a freshman at Texas.

First I've heard that.

Cool! :cool:

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 10:33 AM
Please, please, please stop comparing Ford to Best. You say you don't watch the guy play and you think you're in the position to argue about how he plays and about his flaws. I'm sorry, but how does that work?

I apologize for responding when I was called out on the first page.

I guess my disclaimors aren't enough for you?

I've watched him enough to know I don't like to watch him. That's my point. In my opinion, his only quality move is an explosive drive to the basket and I don't like to watch 5'11" guys try to take it to big defenders. But I haven't watched him enough to do a thorough analysis of the rest of his game (if it even exists) because - when he played for a team besides the Pacers - I was extremely uninterested in him.

I apologize again for expanding on an opinion at a fan forum. From now on, I'll just stick to saying, "I don't like him" without providing any reason why. Is that better?

Even his supporters agree that he isn't MVP or even All-star material, and while many professional scouts and analysts have him in the top-20 or so PGs, several others don't. So there must be something else beyond the "TJ Ford is such a huge upgrade at PG so now we're a playoff team" nonsense that the Pacers PR machine has spun and that many on here believe.

Mushmouth
10-22-2008, 11:01 AM
There is a light at the end of a tunnel for the first time since the Brawl... This team actually has the potential to grow on an arc, get better as a team over the next few years.

I love the point guard tandem, they will make all the difference in the world this year. We still will struggle plenty this year, but I'm looking forward to watching this team get better, and maybe become a division contender in the next couple years.

Can't wait to watch the first few games on the NBA Pass free preview... maybe next year I'll go back to buying the full-year package?:D

Hicks
10-22-2008, 11:13 AM
So you're saying that while you want point guards to point, you don't want penetrators to penetrate?

:D

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 11:14 AM
Talk about the long view. We don't have anybody under contract once his expires..

We will, though. There is a vision for the future of this team, and it is very likely to include Granger, Rush, Hibbert and Jack - barring anything unforseen right now.

And also the PF we haven't drafted yet.

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 11:30 AM
So you're saying that while you want point guards to point, you don't want penetrators to penetrate?

:D

I don't want perpetrators to perpetrate. But that's the SGs that Shoot problem. And he's in Oakland now. :D

I like dribble penetration to force the defense to shift/ collapse and create opportunities in the seams. I don't think he's got the size or court vision to do that well, though. Remember, our collective criticism of Tinsley was that he stopped dishing the ball and always went to the rim (even though he was very good at the drive-and-dish because of his size and court vision.)

There's a huge difference between having a 6'3" (or bigger) PG in there vs. a 5'11" guy, even if he is pass-first. I believe you guys when you say he's pass first. I'm unconvinced he has the court vision and size to actually be successful. This is easy to defend - just crowd him to take away his visibility and have a shotblocker in the paint waiting for him. You won't necessarily see teams crowd a PG like that during the regular season, but that is Adjustment #1 in the playoffs against him.

BillS
10-22-2008, 11:45 AM
I am convinced he has the court vision after some of the passes I saw him make in the first NO game and the home Grizz game. It remains to be seen if the size will be enough of an issue to overshadow it.

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 12:46 PM
I am convinced he has the court vision after some of the passes I saw him make in the first NO game and the home Grizz game. It remains to be seen if the size will be enough of an issue to overshadow it.

I understand your point. It may not just be the size, it may also be easily taken away by a defensive adjustment.

Its not really different to say that JO had bunch of super explosive block moves and looked to be on the verge of using his quickness to become a dominant post presence until Stan Van Gundy and Lawrence Frank made adjustments to take it away that were copied by everybody.

We need to let the thing play out. We know that he's played his way to the bench before in his career. I'm less concerned about his attitude than his size.

Hicks
10-22-2008, 01:48 PM
How exactly did he play his way to the bench in Milwaukee?

I KNOW the Toronto argument is bull**** already, but if the MIL one is legit, I'll listen.

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 02:18 PM
How did Williams end up replacing him? Or was that the other injury? In my mind, he was already relegated to the second string.

I just remember that when he came back, they didn't want him.

Since86
10-22-2008, 02:21 PM
And yet they haven't made the playoffs sense he left.

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 02:29 PM
Man, I completely forgot the Bucks made the playoffs in 03-04 and 05-06. The EC has had a pretty bad decade.

Hicks
10-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Man, I completely forgot the Bucks made the playoffs in 03-04 and 05-06. The EC has had a pretty bad decade.

And it got so much better on 04-05 and 06-07, 07-08......

ChicagoJ
10-22-2008, 03:48 PM
No, I think for most of this decade the teams with the 5-8 seeds in the East have not been good teams, just fortunate that the EC has been bad overall except for the Pistons and for a few seasons, the Pacers and Heat.

Different teams pop into the #6-9 spots each year as they peak and then drop back to the lottery.

imawhat
10-23-2008, 02:10 AM
He has to prove to me that he isn't Travis Best 2.0 (or Travis Best 3.0 if Fred Jones turned into Travis Best 2.0). Undersized but quick/ explosive. Can't finish consistently. Can't find teammates when he drives. Undersized.

I'm sorry, but I've been thinking about this line. How many times have you watched him play; twice? On the court he has less in common with Travis Best than Brandon Rush has with Kareem Rush. He doesn't have issues finding teammates and he doesn't have issues finishing.

It bothers me that you admittedly haven't watched him that much, but have gone as far as assuming why he was not a full-time starter in Toronto and Milwaukee and thinking he isn't starter material.


Obviously, all assists are important but when evaluating a PG I put higher stock on the higher quality (more difficult) assists than a high quantity of assists. A big part of Jackson's, Nash's and even Tinsley's ability to "thread the needle" was that at 6'3" they are big enough that they can see where to put the ball.

1. You should try using history when evaluating point guards. 10 of the top 18 assist leaders of all-time are TJ's size. Mugsy Bogues was 5'2" and averaged 7.6 assists a game. There are numerous cases of successful, "under-sized" point guards.

2. Even at 6'3" a player is still likely to be the smallest player on the floor and would have NO clear-cut "court vision" advantage over someone who's 5'10", so I think your point is moot.

3. Defensive pressure and crowding can be negated by the ability to penetrate, which you've already agreed TJ can do. It's not difficult to find the open man when you have the ability to blow by your defenders and make open passes.


I've watched him enough to know I don't like to watch him. That's my point. In my opinion, his only quality move is an explosive drive to the basket and I don't like to watch 5'11" guys try to take it to big defenders.

Your opinions and personal preferences should have little to do with a player's quality level. For instance, I didn't like watching Jermaine play, and I didn't like him, but that doesn't negate that he's a great defender and the best player we had. I'm fine with you disliking TJ; just wish it didn't create such a biased opinion on his actual game. He's not a perennial all-star type, but he's certainly starter-level and has the potential to be a coaches selection on the all-star team some day, if he can avoid a freak incident.

TJ averaged over 6 assists in limited minutes with Bosh, Moon, Parker, and Bargnani as his floormates and Sam Mitchell as his coach. I'll say it a trillion times; I'm SO glad we're sitting here with TJ and not Calderon.

imawhat
10-23-2008, 02:13 AM
Al Capone lived in Chicago and was a white man. Hmmm...You're a gangster aren't you. You must be...you're just like Capone.

I like thinking Chicago Jay is just like Jay Redd because they're Jays.

BillS
10-23-2008, 09:20 AM
1. You should try using history when evaluating point guards. 10 of the top 18 assist leaders of all-time are TJ's size. Mugsy Bogues was 5'2" and averaged 7.6 assists a game. There are numerous cases of successful, "under-sized" point guards.

Not a starter, so not the same thing at all. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those top-18 assist leaders were starters. And, yes, I know about Stockton being 6' 1".


2. Even at 6'3" a player is still likely to be the smallest player on the floor and would have NO clear-cut "court vision" advantage over someone who's 5'10", so I think your point is moot.

Angles and wingspan. A couple of inches can make a big difference. TWSS.


3. Defensive pressure and crowding can be negated by the ability to penetrate, which you've already agreed TJ can do. It's not difficult to find the open man when you have the ability to blow by your defenders and make open passes.

There is a good point here, that you get vision when your man has to play you away in order to guard against penetration. However, keep in mind that JOB's system isn't supposed to lead very often to the PG isolated and looking for an open man while threatening to drive to the basket. He will spend a lot more time in close coverage than you might think.


In other words, while I disagree with ChicagoJ, I don't dismiss his concerns completely.

ChicagoJ
10-23-2008, 10:27 AM
It's not difficult to find the open man when you have the ability to blow by your defenders and make open passes.

Yes it is. A number of undersized but quick PGs flame out in the NBA because they put their head down, blow around the initial defender, then get the play smoothered when they drive into the paint because they can't find the passing lane and can't finish the play. This is what made Iverson outstanding at dribble penetration because of how hard it is to do. And even then, Iverson finished his own play at the rim far more than he ever found the seam in the defense to make the pass.

Toss out the Travis Best comparisons if you don't like them. I think Ford is also very comparable to Tyus Edny.


Angles and wingspan. A couple of inches can make a big difference. TWSS.

I think the difference between 5'11" and 6'3" at the PG position is huge.

Putnam
10-23-2008, 10:37 AM
Would it help to settle this if we could all watch some real video of TJ ford playing? Edited highlights admitedly don't tell the whole story, but they do show what is possible.

Have a look at this thread, and the linked videos of highlights from Raptors Games.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=40281


Note expecially, in the first video:


at 5:05, you see something we will see a lot of next year. This drive-and-dish game is going to get us an absurd amount of open threes.

And bear in mind this is not some ordinary fan's opinion. It is the voice of "Both teams played hard" talking! :arrgh:


TJ will do fine.

imawhat
10-24-2008, 01:53 AM
Not a starter, so not the same thing at all. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those top-18 assist leaders were starters. And, yes, I know about Stockton being 6' 1".

Actually he was. As a starter in all 77 games he played in '93-'94, he averaged 10.1 assists (2nd in the NBA; the top 5 that season were 6' 1" and under).

Saying that it would've been different as a bench player is a weak argument. He would've been a foot shorter than the reserves he was playing against.



Angles and wingspan. A couple of inches can make a big difference. TWSS.

You're not supposed to use logic in your posts.

In all seriousness, I'm not saying it doesn't help; I'm saying it doesn't make a clear cut difference. The argument was about being in traffic. Unless you're Shawn Livingston, and you're a PG, you're going to be shorter than your defenders in traffic. The other 85% of the time assists are made, it doesn't make a difference.



There is a good point here, that you get vision when your man has to play you away in order to guard against penetration. However, keep in mind that JOB's system isn't supposed to lead very often to the PG isolated and looking for an open man while threatening to drive to the basket. He will spend a lot more time in close coverage than you might think.

And he will do fine, as he has consistently shown in his career. The issue with TJ Ford will be about him calling his own number, not his ability to distribute the ball, which was an issue brought up by someone who's seen TJ play a handful of times (unless I'm wrong).