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idioteque
10-16-2008, 10:55 AM
I know that we've sort of talked this issue to death on this forum, but I was curious as to what the local fans expect attendance to be like for the Pacers this year.

Obviously, it can't get much worse, and the team has poured money into PR this summer and really done, in my opinion, an excellent job trying to rehabilitate this franchise. But it does take a little bit of time for fans to really catch onto these sort of actions.

So where do you think the Pacers will rank in attendance this year? Dead last again or is it going to get better?

Personally I think it's not really inconceivable that we won't at least start out last in the league...again. The two teams right above us, Memphis and OKC, should get boosts in attendance this year. OKC, because of the move, and Memphis because of getting Mayo and pairing that with the young talent they have. So we're really going to have to compete to move up in the attendance rankings.

If we finish the year something like 22nd, that would be a huge success IMHO.

Infinite MAN_force
10-16-2008, 11:00 AM
Probably last again... but if the team makes some noise and gets into the playoffs the outlook for next year gets much better.

Hicks
10-16-2008, 11:08 AM
Last, worse than last year, until at least January, at which point, if we're projected to win more than 41 games, it will improve slightly.

Peck
10-16-2008, 11:29 AM
I will join in on the call saying that they will begin the season at the bottom. If the team looks competative then you will probably see a slight increase in attendance. However there are several factors that will affect the attendance.

On the positive front let's say that Roy begins the year with a R.O.Y. like performance and we are not only competative but are actually winning I could see a decent increase by mid season.

Like was stated ending up at 22 in attendance has to be considered a huge victory.

I honestly don't think it will get worse than last season because let's face it the only people in the building on most nights were people who are going to be there no matter what.

Since we have had a management change and a new philosophy towards player acccountability I don't think it will sink any lower than that. I would not say that if we had the same old "we can't do anything until the justice system works" mentality we had from the last management.

I know many people are going to look at the attendance and complain that it did no good to trade away good players because people will only supporta winner. To a point that is true, there will not be a great spike in attendance until we make some playoff noise.

However they have at least got the locals back to apathy. That may not sound like much but believe me this time last year it wasn't apathy, it was hatred.

I'm rambling.

To answer the question I will say this. Barring a miracle 60 win season with Danny being the leading MVP candidate I will say we will end the season in the bottom 3 in attendance.

xtacy
10-16-2008, 11:40 AM
will be worse than last year imho and getting rid of troubled players and guys giving their everything on the court won't do enough to get the fans back to the seats.our attendance won't go up unless we start winning.

aceace
10-16-2008, 01:12 PM
I expect attendance to be down league wide. Some teams are recession proof Lakers, Knicks and Bulls. We need 50+ wins to get above 20. Bottom 3 is most likely.

BobbyMac
10-16-2008, 01:36 PM
With the economy going downhill the Pacers will not increase their attendance, however the NBA as a whole will decrease.

Unclebuck
10-16-2008, 01:36 PM
It is hard to predict what impact the economy will have in other cities. I would look for Memphis to maybe be lower than the Pacers. Just a guess. But I'll predict the pacers will be last in attendance and average a few hundred fewer per game. This is assuming a to be expected season - winning between 34-40 games, almost making the playoffs.

Should be fewer no shows though

LoneGranger33
10-16-2008, 01:44 PM
Hopefully it stays at or above the point where maintaining a franchise is possible.

ABADays
10-16-2008, 01:45 PM
I think it's going to depend on the kind of showing we have up to the end of the year. I have serious doubts about us finishing last in the league. I look for a surprising jump after the first of the year.

Roaming Gnome
10-16-2008, 01:45 PM
Dead last with serious concerns about the teams ability to stay in Indianapolis.

No, I'm not kidding!

Unclebuck
10-16-2008, 01:48 PM
Here is a link to the attendance figures from last season. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Just kind of rambling on here.

The Sonics moving to Oklahoma city will mean a net increase there for sure. Cities like Philly and Atlanta should see inreases. I read that Utah is basically sold out for the year. New orleans because their team is so good will be up. Rockets sales are up over last season. Portland's is up - although they were sold out almost every game last season. Orlando I read is up. I'm sure, lakers, Pistons, Celtics, Cavs, Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Suns will basically stay the same as sold out.

I see Memphis dropping quite a bit, along with Charlotte, Milwaukee, Minnesota, maybe Sacramento, New jersey, Miami - but that is probably it.

duke dynamite
10-16-2008, 01:49 PM
I honestly like the extra leg room, but I do wish that something good will happen.

JayRedd
10-16-2008, 04:09 PM
It will be bad to start the year, but I can see it being pretty good in 2009 as long as we at least tread water around .500. (Pretty good compared to last year...not League average. Maybe like 14,500-15,000.)

People are going to love TJ...kids especially.

Justin Tyme
10-16-2008, 04:13 PM
Dead last with serious concerns about the teams ability to stay in Indianapolis.

No, I'm not kidding!


I give you brass for saying what some feel, but others won't dare think or say.

count55
10-16-2008, 04:14 PM
13k over the course of the season...stronger attendance later in the year.

Dece
10-16-2008, 04:22 PM
I just don't see a reason to believe we'll be higher than dead last. All that talk about people not attending because of off court incidents was really just talk in my opinion. People will come to see a contender, and they won't otherwise.

Bball
10-16-2008, 04:24 PM
I'm not sure that paid tickets will increase over last year, especially early, but I bet butts in the seats will slowly be better.

These last few years there were comped tickets floating around that went unused. As long as the team is likable and looks like they are building toward a light at the end of the tunnel curiosity will get some of those tix used again.

TPTB let this team spiral to some dark places before finally making a change. It's not something that can be repaired overnight. It's going to take players and management showing the fans some real continued commitment to getting the dark past behind them.

It's going to take a while just to let the casual fans know we've dumped the bad eggs and (hopefully) have players that care about Pacer basketball.

If ownership is not committed to staying in Indy then Gnome is right... because you cannot repair the damage that was done to this franchise by the mismanagement of the past few seasons overnight.

Roaming Gnome
10-16-2008, 04:36 PM
I give you brass for saying what some feel, but others won't dare think or say.

What gives me cause for concern is that in the NBA of the late 80's and very early 90's, it was somewhat acceptable to have teams drawing 8k or 9k a game. I just have a feeling that the days of that are long gone. We had great guys during this time, we played .500 ball during the early 90's during Bob Hill's tenure as coach, and we had the Big Brown curtains masking at least 4,000 empty seats in an arena that seated a little over 16,000 people. I'm not going to hammer on the local fans, like I usually do, but it is what it is.

Central Indiana is not going to support a .500 team with no major drawing card.


I believe, for now... our ownership is strong enough to weather the storm of our fan base, but Herb and Mel are not spring chickens. My concern is not now, but 5 to 10 years from now. I fear that if this team goes thru a decade like the 80's where the best we can do is .500. Making the play-offs twice or maybe three times. The locals will just view the team as a "laughing stock" and not be caught dead here. Before you label me a kook, remember, it happened before.

Heck, I haven't even mentioned David Simon. What if he is not interested in taking on ownership from his father. I'd be lying if I told you this doesn't worry me and shake me to my core.

Charcoal Filtered
10-16-2008, 04:53 PM
While diehards are trying to find any excuse to love this team (Hibbert and Rush will compete for ROY, Ford staying healthy, JO gone, Dunleavy and Granger improving), I am not for sure the general public holds the same enthusiasm. With the economy in shambles, I would expect that attendance is not going to improve.

FYI, add the Portland Trailblazers as teams that should sellout the reg season. For the three preseason games, they all drew over 19k.

duke dynamite
10-16-2008, 06:20 PM
Central Indiana is not going to support a .500 team with no major drawing card.



Indianapolis/Indiana fans are terrible. Before last week, Colts tickets on places like StubHub, the prices dropped close to face value. This Monday I checked, and they were up again.

This really shows that when our teams win, there is a demand. I honestly don't think that the economy plays much of a factor in sporting events, because there are still NFL and MLB stadiums fillinng up to capacity night after night, week after week.

The key is that we need to win. This team needs to get to the playoffs.

GO!!!!!
10-16-2008, 06:22 PM
Do those figures include promotions and company seats or are they paid grand stand seats.
Sales or Attendance can be a big difference, heck I’d go to watch Premier League Squash if i got given good tickets..

I am properly more annoyed with the low percentage rather then the low actual number 66.6% is rather sad.

I'd like to see it higher but hey..
The Economy is crap right now and if everyone has DirecTV i can't see it going up much, but sitting around 14-15K would be nice

ABADays
10-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Indianapolis/Indiana fans are terrible.

I absolutely hate this argument. No - let me rephrase that - I detest this argument. Indianapolis/Indiana fans are no different than any other fans in this country. You win people come, you lose people don't. And if you don't believe the economy affects sports and the ability for fans and ESPECIALLY families to attend you're kidding yourself. This beating down of Indy fans is growing terribly, terribly old.

duke dynamite
10-16-2008, 08:14 PM
I absolutely hate this argument. No - let me rephrase that - I detest this argument. Indianapolis/Indiana fans are no different than any other fans in this country. You win people come, you lose people don't. And if you don't believe the economy affects sports and the ability for fans and ESPECIALLY families to attend you're kidding yourself. This beating down of Indy fans is growing terribly, terribly old.
Eh, most people I know are the first to sit in a seat when something is going right, but they bail when something doesn't go the way it's supposed to. I don't like that and I see it.

I'm sorry if it ruffles your feathers, but I don't comment on something if I don't see it.

I understand how you feel, and a lot of other fans are like that, but it seems like our fans have less patience since we are so used to having winning/good teams.

BlueNGold
10-16-2008, 09:01 PM
I do think Indy is one of the cities that doesn't have great support for professional sports, but there may be some reasons. One is that the city is quite a bit smaller than some....but there are other reasons.

First, Indy is not the home for many large corporations that purchase suites and the like and send large numbers of employees to company events. Second, the metro area is very conservative and more focused on raising families and saving for college than spending big bucks to see men play a game. Third, there is more than our fair share of university sports in the state with Notre Dame, IU, Purdue, Butler, etc. The amateur sports and high school sports are also huge here...and less expensive of course. Indy also has many fans of Chicago and Cincinnati teams. I know I've spent a lot more money going to Reds games over the years than Colts games, for example. Sorry!

Edit: btw, I am not saying the fans are terrible. It's just the circumstances of Indianapolis versus other locales....and to be sure, the Hawks had to sit the cleaning crew a few years ago to show any people on TV....and Atlanta is much larger...

Major Cold
10-16-2008, 09:20 PM
I think we will be last again.

But it will increase after the Colts season ends.

I agree with RG. When fans want to trade away the team and tank for years on end they don't really understand that they are wishing this team away.

Roaming Gnome
10-16-2008, 09:24 PM
The team that I thought was interestingly similar to ours was the 76ers. Between the time of Barkley being traded and Allen Iverson being drafted, Philly had nothing on the roster, and nothing in the stands for being such a large market.

BillS
10-16-2008, 11:21 PM
Based on both the PR and the media response, I am a bit more optimistic.

Barring some major badness, I think we'll be in the bottom half but I don't think we'll be in the bottom three.

Probably wishful thinking.

imawhat
10-16-2008, 11:41 PM
11-11.5/night, even with a good team.

Judged by the drop in general entertainment sales, the state of the economy, and the multi-year effect of the damage done to the Pacers image.

Bball
10-17-2008, 12:08 AM
Central Indiana is not going to support a .500 team with no major drawing card.



Chicken or the egg?

We could go out and get a 'major drawing card' via a magic wand and it still wouldn't put fans in the seats if the team remains mediocre. There might be a short term spike, followed by a decline right back to where we were.

We have to put a good team on the floor, make sure we remove any obstacles to a natural ascension, and then see what we get as our hand is dealt.

We tried putting too many square pegs into round holes and giving out 'extra' second chances on any number of fronts and that is what got us to the depths we fell.

But right now I think we have the cancers away from the team and I think we have players who have the type of mentality we need to right this ship. The outstanding question is just how much time we have to right the ship.

Roaming Gnome
10-17-2008, 12:34 AM
Chicken or the egg?

We could go out and get a 'major drawing card' via a magic wand and it still wouldn't put fans in the seats if the team remains mediocre. There might be a short term spike, followed by a decline right back to where we were.

We have to put a good team on the floor, make sure we remove any obstacles to a natural ascension, and then see what we get as our hand is dealt.

We tried putting too many square pegs into round holes and giving out 'extra' second chances on any number of fronts and that is what got us to the depths we fell.

But right now I think we have the cancers away from the team and I think we have players who have the type of mentality we need to right this ship. The outstanding question is just how much time we have to right the ship.

Bball, I'm not advocating giving up on the team concept just to bring a guy in that might put a few rear ends in the seats. I'm just pointing out that we don't have a guy that is "must see". .500 ball with no one that melts the butter on your popcorn isn't going to bring anyone in. I just hope that some how, some way we can ADD that guy into our mix.

Bball
10-17-2008, 11:52 AM
Bball, I'm not advocating giving up on the team concept just to bring a guy in that might put a few rear ends in the seats. I'm just pointing out that we don't have a guy that is "must see". .500 ball with no one that melts the butter on your popcorn isn't going to bring anyone in. I just hope that some how, some way we can ADD that guy into our mix.

You don't think there's any chance any of our guys can fill that role?

I think TPTB might've learned, and been burned, from trying to put JO into that role so right now they are going easy on the starmaker machine (hyping players). ...But if a player emerges as a true leader and big part of our offense (by allowing that role to develop naturally) then I think the team will start utilizing that player differently in the media.

Los Angeles
10-17-2008, 01:07 PM
You know, it's always kind of irked me that the Pacer's local fanbase only extends the distance of Indianapolis TV coverage. I moved from indy to the South Bend area when I was 13 and it was as if nobody up there had even heard of the Colts or the Pacers. It was all about Notre Dame and the Bulls, Cubs and Bears. I don't know if it's the same anymore.

Of course, it makes perfect sense that you root for what you have media access to and it also makes sense that the same distance is considered reasonable "driving distance".

OK, sorry to change subject mid-stream but we all know that Indiana has had relatively expensive gas. does anyone think that this might have been one of the reasons for people outside of Marion County to stay away?

duke dynamite
10-17-2008, 01:10 PM
You know, it's always kind of irked me that the Pacer's local fanbase only extends the distance of Indianapolis TV coverage. I moved from indy to the South Bend area when I was 13 and it was as if nobody up there had even heard of the Colts or the Pacers. It was all about Notre Dame and the Bulls, Cubs and Bears. I don't know if it's the same anymore.

Of course, it makes perfect sense that you root for what you have media access to and it also makes sense that the same distance is considered reasonable "driving distance".

OK, sorry to change subject mid-stream but we all know that Indiana has had relatively expensive gas. does anyone think that this might have been one of the reasons for people outside of Marion County to stay away?
I live in Bedford. All it is here are IU fans.

It has changed over the last few years. A lot of Colts "fans" popping up everywhere.

5,000th Post!

Sollozzo
10-17-2008, 01:23 PM
The team that I thought was interestingly similar to ours was the 76ers. Between the time of Barkley being traded and Allen Iverson being drafted, Philly had nothing on the roster, and nothing in the stands for being such a large market.

Good point.

I might add that in 2004-2005 the Pacers averaged more people than the Celtics, despite the fact that Boston has a larger arena, and despite Boston having 3 million more people than Indianapolis in it's metro area. Actually, when you take into account that Boston teams really represent the entire New England area, its probably millions more than that. They aren't like Indy, which is handicapped by the northern half of the state not caring at all about the teams due to the Chicago market.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2005

That's freaking pitiful that the Pacers averaged more people than the Celts that year. Don't let Boston fans fool you about being so loyal.

It's funny, the Celtics are great again and sure enough, they full to capacity.

ChicagoJ
10-17-2008, 02:00 PM
I'm not interested in predictions of low attendance. That's a given.

What are we, as the hardcore, extremly loyal and interested Pacers/ NBA fans doing to help fix this?

I don't have season tickets anymore. I live too far away; and since Indiana picked the wrong time zone, even the Friday night games are mathematically impossible once school lets out (let alone dealing with the Chicago rush hour.)

If I still had season tickets, with a young, exciting, but not-yet-ready to win team, I would be dragging friends along with freebies and pointing out the upside of Granger, Hibbert, Rush, etc., hoping that they will be ready to catch a new version of "Pacers Fever" over 12-24 months down the road when the team is ready to win.

The season tickets are a sunk cost. Might as well turn it into an investment in a future fan.

duke dynamite
10-17-2008, 02:02 PM
I'm not interested in predictions of low attendance. That's a given.

What are we, as the hardcore, extremly loyal and interested Pacers/ NBA fans doing to help fix this?

I don't have tickets anymore. I live too far away; and since Indiana picked the wrong time zone, even the Friday night games are mathematically impossible once school lets out (let alone dealing with the Chicago rush hour.)

If I still had season tickets, with a young, exciting, but not-yet-ready to win team, I would be dragging friends along with freebies and pointing out the upside of Granger, Hibbert, Rush, etc., hoping that they will be ready to catch a new version of "Pacers Fever" over 12-24 months down the road when the team is ready to win.

The season tickets are a sunk cost. Might as well turn it into an investment in a future fan.
All that matters is that your heart is in the right place.

Roaming Gnome
10-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Good point.

I might add that in 2004-2005 the Pacers averaged more people than the Celtics, despite the fact that Boston has a larger arena, and despite Boston having 3 million more people than Indianapolis in it's metro area. Actually, when you take into account that Boston teams really represent the entire New England area, its probably millions more than that. They aren't like Indy, which is handicapped by the northern half of the state not caring at all about the teams due to the Chicago market.

That's freaking pitiful that the Pacers averaged more people than the Celts that year. Don't let Boston fans fool you about being so loyal.

Glad that you brought the Celtics up... Two or three years ago my wife and I were in Bob Evans before a game waiting in line to pay. A gentleman with a very distinct New England accent seen our Pacers gear approached us asking if people still supported the Pacers here. I told him that it's been a little tough, but there are a lot of us that still support our team. He went on to say that he was from Boston and was a Celtics fan, but it's rare to see anyone in Boston wearing Celtics gear or hats because the team was viewed as an embarrasment. I told him that it's been that way here in Indy, but I've never taken grief over wearing my Pacers gear. I mentioned to him that I was so supprised that with the Celtic's tradition, anyone would turn their backs on them.


I guess I just found it interesting that here, I'd expect that sort of thing, but not in Boston.

Bball
10-17-2008, 04:45 PM
I live in Bedford.


:stupid:

Sollozzo
10-17-2008, 04:56 PM
Glad that you brought the Celtics up... Two or three years ago my wife and I were in Bob Evans before a game waiting in line to pay. A gentleman with a very distinct New England accent seen our Pacers gear approached us asking if people still supported the Pacers here. I told him that it's been a little tough, but there are a lot of us that still support our team. He went on to say that he was from Boston and was a Celtics fan, but it's rare to see anyone in Boston wearing Celtics gear or hats because the team was viewed as an embarrasment. I told him that it's been that way here in Indy, but I've never taken grief over wearing my Pacers gear. I mentioned to him that I was so supprised that with the Celtic's tradition, anyone would turn their backs on them.


I guess I just found it interesting that here, I'd expect that sort of thing, but not in Boston.

Thanks for sharing that story, Gnome. That supports what I've read pre-07/08 about the lack of support for the Celtics in Boston from the time when Bird retired until the championship last season. Your story just shows that Boston fans are no different than anybody else, and are extremely overrated as sports fans.

Why was the Celtics attendance down in that period?

1) The team wasn't good
2) The Patriots and Red Sox were extremely succesfull

Hmm, those seem to be the exact same reasons that Indy has had trouble supporting the Pacers over the past few years. The team has stunk and the Colts have been at the top of the NFL. I don't see any difference at all. Well, except for the fact that it's 1000 times more embarrassing for Boston to have an attendance problem with one of its team than it is for Indy, given the fact that Boston has millions of more people and is a wealthier area.

I mean this is the Boston Celtics. This is the team of Bird, McHale, Russel, Cousy, Havilcheck, and Auerbach. This was the team with 16 championships before last season. And no one seemed to care much between 1992-2007. Then boom, the big 3 comes and all the sudden attendance spikes to 100%. And this is what cracks me up about Boston fans in general. They accuse the Yankees of "buying" their team, but they don't have a problem with supporting guys like Garnett or Ray Allen, who aren't "true" Celtics like Larry Bird or Bill Russell. Not to mention ManRam, Ortiz, SChilling, Pedro Martinez, and Mike Lowell...all players that the Red Sox either traded for or "bought" (not that there's anything wrong with it, that's how you build a team...just stop accusing the Yanks of it when you do the exact same thing).

Indy will always be handicapped by the fact that it's a tiny market. When the teams are great, then people will come. But when the teams aren't so good, demand suffers. I'm sure that demand for Knicks tickets has plummeted over the past 7 years in New York, but since New York has 22 million people in it's metro area, it's pretty easy to find 19,000 people to fill a basketball stadium every night. But human nature is relatively the same everywhere.

El Pacero
10-17-2008, 09:02 PM
I think a big reason for continued low attendance, that hasn't been mentioned, is the fact that we have a LOT of new players that casual fans don't know. My friend was watching the first quarter with me tonight, and he was frustrated that he didn't know anyone. Just three new guys out five throws casual fans off and they will take a while to get used to the new players, and get to know them. The Pacers organization have tried their best with all the internet video interviews, TV commercials featuring players, etc, but this is a hurdle for any team that suddenly has a bunch of new players.

Considering the economy, general attitude about the Pacers which hasn't really changed that much with all the trades, popularity of the Colts, and the mentioned unfamiliarity with the new players . . . I don't see attendance improving.

croz24
10-17-2008, 09:10 PM
indy fans don't show unless you have a consistent contender. even then it's no guarantee the fans will show. indy is fairweather all the way. i predict slightly better than last year.

croz24
10-17-2008, 09:14 PM
I think we will be last again.

But it will increase after the Colts season ends.

I agree with RG. When fans want to trade away the team and tank for years on end they don't really understand that they are wishing this team away.

same can be argued for maintaining status quo for years on end

Major Cold
10-17-2008, 09:28 PM
same can be argued for maintaining status quo for years on end

Do you not remember that this team was a contender 03-04? That is about 4 years ago. When were the Blazers, Grizzlies, Bulls, and Hawks contenders? Are you hoping that this team goes through a Boston like history in order to get two Hall of Famers? Do you think that a trade like that will happen again, to even a team in the Indy market?

Do you really think that tanking for 4+ years will keep the ownership from selling?

I want a super star. But we also need surrounding talent, not just "potential". Obviously we see things different. You know my position and everyone knows yours. So we can just leave it at that.

croz24
10-17-2008, 10:27 PM
Do you not remember that this team was a contender 03-04? That is about 4 years ago. When were the Blazers, Grizzlies, Bulls, and Hawks contenders? Are you hoping that this team goes through a Boston like history in order to get two Hall of Famers? Do you think that a trade like that will happen again, to even a team in the Indy market?

Do you really think that tanking for 4+ years will keep the ownership from selling?

I want a super star. But we also need surrounding talent, not just "potential". Obviously we see things different. You know my position and everyone knows yours. So we can just leave it at that.

funny how you only pick out the teams who failed in their draft selections. i can just as easily name you the success stories of having high draft picks and already have time and time again. hall of fame/all-star quality rarely finds itself in the middle of the draft. believe realgm even did a story on this; on how beneficial it is having a top selection and how likely you are to find a star at such a pick. 82games also did such a story. check them out...

but as i've stated many times already, a lot also depends on the year and what players are coming out. last year was the perfect year to have a top pick, this year the top flight talent might not be so great.

Bball
10-18-2008, 02:02 AM
I don't know how much more I could agree with Adam's point here. I don't think Indy is any different than anywhere else when it comes to fan support. No, fans are not going to be on a waiting list for tickets when the team is not winning. Add in constant turmoil and questionable characters and it will be worse.

There's plenty of other places sports fans can put their hard earned money... and that actually speaks to the sporting market as a whole in this area.

Now, if PS&E would extend their marketing outside of I465 it might give them a larger fanbase to draw from to help weather the storms.

This "Indy fans suck... they are fickle... and they are bandwagoners" line of thinking just makes me shake my head. Where does that come from? Is it just hardcore fans so wrapped up in the team that they can't see the forest for the trees?

You can point to Green Bay and the Packers as a place where the team is supported no matter what but after that the list quickly shortens. And obviously, GB is a unique situation.

No team can survive the mismanagement and mistakes we just came thru without some scars. Ticket demand will wane proportionately no matter where you are.

Sollozzo
10-18-2008, 01:44 PM
I don't know how much more I could agree with Adam's point here. I don't think Indy is any different than anywhere else when it comes to fan support. No, fans are not going to be on a waiting list for tickets when the team is not winning. Add in constant turmoil and questionable characters and it will be worse.

There's plenty of other places sports fans can put their hard earned money... and that actually speaks to the sporting market as a whole in this area.

Now, if PS&E would extend their marketing outside of I465 it might give them a larger fanbase to draw from to help weather the storms.

This "Indy fans suck... they are fickle... and they are bandwagoners" line of thinking just makes me shake my head. Where does that come from? Is it just hardcore fans so wrapped up in the team that they can't see the forest for the trees?

You can point to Green Bay and the Packers as a place where the team is supported no matter what but after that the list quickly shortens. And obviously, GB is a unique situation.

No team can survive the mismanagement and mistakes we just came thru without some scars. Ticket demand will wane proportionately no matter where you are.


Good points. The "Indy fans suck" remarks put the blame on the fans, and absolve the franchise of any wrong doing. That is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

You're right, places like Green Bay or the Chicago Cubs are irrelevant in this type of debate. They have fan support which is unparalleled.

I was watching a Michael Jordan documentary on youtube. He was talking about the early years of being a Bull, and how Chicago stadium had thousands of empty seats when he started playing there. Then he said how rewarding it was to see the place full once the team started to play good.

That's Chicago. That's the third largest market in the United States. And pre Jordan they weren't supporting that team.

Wu-Gambino
10-19-2008, 06:48 PM
Yeah, things are not going to get any better until the team wins more games and makes the playoffs. It is as simple as that. What is disappointing is that when I talk to people, they still mention the Pacers' players as being "thugs", despite the fact that the "problem" players like Jackson and Artest have been gone for quite some time, Williams has been traded, and Tinsley has been excommunicated. I think that even with Tinsley gone, the average person won't change their attitudes towards the Pacers until something catches their eye, it's like any other business. And that, of course, is winning.

Building a solid team around Granger that can get to the playoffs and eventually start competing in the East again, everything should be gone. I don't see the Pacers ever leaving Indy, call me naive or delusional. The Simon Family has done way too much for the franchise and loves the city of Indianapolis and its' residents too much to sell the team.

BoomBaby31
10-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Well I"m back in Indiana for most of the season so, at least one more fan then last year lol... I feel the prices are a little too steep, need to drop them a bit if they want to fill up season. They could even do like the dodgers do, a certain section gets unlimited food or other promotions to fill up these seats.

ChicagoJ
10-19-2008, 11:02 PM
That's Chicago. That's the third largest market in the United States. And pre Jordan they weren't supporting that team.

Chicago is NOT an NBA town. Never has been. They couldn't help but support the Bulls, of course, but that was a no-brainer. They would show up and support another champion, I think, even if it didn't have Jordan. Maybe.

This is a Bears town, and a baseball town. And an "Original 6" (or whatever its called) town so there is still a lot of love for the Blackhawks.

Sollozzo
10-20-2008, 12:26 AM
Chicago is NOT an NBA town. Never has been. They couldn't help but support the Bulls, of course, but that was a no-brainer. They would show up and support another champion, I think, even if it didn't have Jordan. Maybe.

This is a Bears town, and a baseball town. And an "Original 6" (or whatever its called) town so there is still a lot of love for the Blackhawks.


You're right. Cubbies, White Sox, and Bears dwarf the Bulls any day. I would bet that the Cubs were still more popular even when MJ was at his peak.

Jay, you're helping me prove my point. Chicago isn't an NBA town, and neither is Indy. Indy is an amateur sports town, whether it be college or high school athletics, and a racing town. And of course, at this moment in time, the Colts are light years ahead of the Pacers in popularity. So the Pacers are pretty low on the totem pull.

So if "Chicagoland", with it's 9 million residents, wouldn't support the Bulls when they were boring before Jordan, why on earth are we surprised when Indy and it's 1.5 million residents won't support the Pacers when they stink?

That's my overall point here. Places like Chicago and Boston, which have great reputations as professional sports cities, have abandoned their teams in the past....and they have millions of more people to pull form than Indianapolis does. So Indy fans abandoning the Pacers doesn't mean that they are bandwagon fans, it actually just means that they are the same as any place else.

Shade
10-20-2008, 01:50 AM
Last, worse than last year, until at least January, at which point, if we're projected to win more than 41 games, it will improve slightly.

This.

Putnam
10-20-2008, 08:54 AM
A lot of good points have been made here, and the general pessimistic tone is probably right.

But isn't our analysis too simple when we assume Indianapolis or Indiana fans are all the same?

There are thousands of hard-core fans here. There are not enough of them to fill the fieldhouse, but they are there.

Then there are strong sports fans, who are, understandably, more enthused about the Colts right now than the Pacers, and probably will turn to the Pacers after February.

Then there are casual fans who consider going to a Pacers game as one of many possibilities for a special night out with the kids. Some of them like these new Pacers, but they also like many other things in nearly the same proportion. Others from this group haven't read enough about them to wipe away the bad feelings. They never look at pacers.com -- they get most of their news from the Star or Channel 13 :shudder: and they don't know that the team has turned the corner.

And there are also fair weather fans who will ignore the team until the team starts to make noise at the national level. This kind of person will actually be attracted to tickets that are overpriced.

It is just wrong and contrary to the evidence to say Indiana fans are not strong or loyal. Many of them are. Most of the posters in this forum are proof of it.

Marketing the Pacers effectively requires attention to each of those four groups I described.

The really devout season ticket holders are most important, so they get invited to Larry's house for a barbecue. But there aren't enough of them.

The 3-sport sports fan is important, but the NBA has shot itself in the foot by making League Pass so affordable and attractive.

The economy is a factor for the casual fans with families. But they are still going to spend money on entertainment. Can the Pacers make a persuasive pitch that an evening at Conseco is better than the alternatives?

I don't know all the answers, but I'm certain the key to the Pacers marketing success requires an astute strategy toward each of these distinct groups.

Roaming Gnome
10-20-2008, 10:37 AM
One thing I think would help is really marketing the "style of play". Since we've had our season tickets, I could tell wife was "mildly interested" with what was happening on the court, but mainly went because it was a way to spend time together without our child.

This year is different, every game she's been to, the comments are the same... This team is fun to watch. At first, I thought she was just saying it because it was the first game and what not, but Friday when we ran into our rep, she asked him for some of his business cards. She told him that she was telling her co-workers how fun the team is to watch and some of her co-workers were curious about the 11 for 8 special going on.

All this from someone that is no where near as invested into the team like we are, but she is taking it upon herself to spread the good word.

I have to admit, this is a pretty fun bunch to watch considering the last couple years have involved standing around waiting for J.O. I'd never thought the Pacers would be throwing lob passes for ally-oop jams.

ChicagoJ
10-20-2008, 10:41 AM
You're right. Cubbies, White Sox, and Bears dwarf the Bulls any day. I would bet that the Cubs were still more popular even when MJ was at his peak.

Jay, you're helping me prove my point. Chicago isn't an NBA town, and neither is Indy. Indy is an amateur sports town, whether it be college or high school athletics, and a racing town. And of course, at this moment in time, the Colts are light years ahead of the Pacers in popularity. So the Pacers are pretty low on the totem pull.

So if "Chicagoland", with it's 9 million residents, wouldn't support the Bulls when they were boring before Jordan, why on earth are we surprised when Indy and it's 1.5 million residents won't support the Pacers when they stink?

That's my overall point here. Places like Chicago and Boston, which have great reputations as professional sports cities, have abandoned their teams in the past....and they have millions of more people to pull form than Indianapolis does. So Indy fans abandoning the Pacers doesn't mean that they are bandwagon fans, it actually just means that they are the same as any place else.

Disagree with your premise that Indianapolis is not an NBA city. There was a survey a few years ago on metro areas with the "most interest" in various sports. San Antonio, Indianapolis were #1 and #2, and I believe New York, Portland and LA were the rest of the top-five for overall interest in professional basketball. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Chicago and Washington DC were unsurprisingly at the top of the football list.

I think you, and many of the posters on here, are underestimating and missing the point regarding the Pacers. The team lost support because its front office operations and oncourt product (and offcourt citizenship) were embarassing. Not because people in Indiana don't enjoy professional basketball anymore. Let every other city, the "average" fan is more inclined to buy a ticket when the team is sexy/ exciting/ winning. The football team has temporarily become a real competition for the fans' limited entertainment dollars. And with the Indiana economy strugging for most of the past six years along with skyrocketing ticket costs, that is putting pressure on the season ticket revenue stream. Meanwhile, I haven't seen the statistics recently but for a long time the Pacers' local television broadcasts were among the most watched of all NBA teams, so the Pacers conceivably can make up for it with a better local television contract.

Bball
10-20-2008, 01:08 PM
Disagree with your premise that Indianapolis is not an NBA city. There was a survey a few years ago on metro areas with the "most interest" in various sports. San Antonio, Indianapolis were #1 and #2, and I believe New York, Portland and LA were the rest of the top-five for overall interest in professional basketball. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Chicago and Washington DC were unsurprisingly at the top of the football list.

I think you, and many of the posters on here, are underestimating and missing the point regarding the Pacers. The team lost support because its front office operations and oncourt product (and offcourt citizenship) were embarassing. Not because people in Indiana don't enjoy professional basketball anymore. Let every other city, the "average" fan is more inclined to buy a ticket when the team is sexy/ exciting/ winning. The football team has temporarily become a real competition for the fans' limited entertainment dollars. And with the Indiana economy strugging for most of the past six years along with skyrocketing ticket costs, that is putting pressure on the season ticket revenue stream. Meanwhile, I haven't seen the statistics recently but for a long time the Pacers' local television broadcasts were among the most watched of all NBA teams, so the Pacers conceivably can make up for it with a better local television contract.

Well, I don't think Adam would disagree with that and I know I don't. My point (and I think his too) is some fans put down Indy or Indiana as a bunch of bandwagoners (or worse) and not a good sports town. My point would be that is an insult to the citizenry and that we're at least as loyal as anywhere else (outside of a few places that are the exception, not the rule).

What you've stated would seem to back that up and show we are even a little better than generally given credit for.

The pessimistic view that there is something wrong with Indy residents is what I take issue with (as opposed to putting any blame on the team or management).

If the team wants more demand for tickets, market to an area wider than inside I465 and put a good product on the floor that is always striving to be more than it is and never satisfied. PS&E will get their support.

Unclebuck
10-20-2008, 01:47 PM
Not that it matters, but Bulls TV ratings in the NBA Finals were higher than any ratings except the times the Bears were in the superbowl. Much higher than the White Sox when they have been in the World Series. of course the Cubs have never been to the World Series.

And then if I really wanted to be a stats nerd, when you consider how much more popular the Super Bowl is than the NBA Finals and that the Super bowl is in essense a game 7 every year - you could make the claim that the Bulls were more popular during the Jordan years than the Bears were

ChicagoJ
10-20-2008, 01:57 PM
World wide? Yes.

Did it turn the citizens of Chicago into Bulls/ NBA fans? No. This is still, for basketball, primarily a college/ Big 10 town.

(Think about it... which newspaper reporters was Bob Knight frequently getting irritated with? A: the guys at the SunTimes and Tribune, where they still write about him as Public Enemy #1.)

Unclebuck
10-20-2008, 02:13 PM
World wide? Yes.

Did it turn the citizens of Chicago into Bulls/ NBA fans? No. This is still, for basketball, primarily a college/ Big 10 town.

(Think about it... which newspaper reporters was Bob Knight frequently getting irritated with? A: the guys at the SunTimes and Tribune, where they still write about him as Public Enemy #1.)

The ratings were local Chicago area ratings - but that was because of Micheal Jordan - not because it was the Bulls. In other words if this current Bulls team wins 6 of the next 8 championships - the ratings will be much lower in Chicago. It was a Jordan town only - sorry I didn't make that clear in my prior post

gilpdawg
10-22-2008, 10:42 AM
Indianapolis/Indiana fans are terrible. Before last week, Colts tickets on places like StubHub, the prices dropped close to face value. This Monday I checked, and they were up again.

This really shows that when our teams win, there is a demand. I honestly don't think that the economy plays much of a factor in sporting events, because there are still NFL and MLB stadiums fillinng up to capacity night after night, week after week.

The key is that we need to win. This team needs to get to the playoffs.
Indiana fans are a joke. These are the same people who like IU basketball, but don't even follow the football team because they are watching Notre Dame every Saturday. It's a joke. Buncha hilljacks.

That said, nobody would be drawing flies with what's gone on here the past few years.

idioteque
11-09-2008, 11:02 AM
Attendance last night (vs. New Jersey) was over 14,300, which isn't that great but much better than our average attendance last season.

I would have liked the attendance to be a little bit higher on a Saturday night, but that can be somewhat negated by the fact the Nets could be the worst team in the league this year and Vince Carter isn't nearly the draw he used to be. And none of their other players are even worth watching.

I am just waiting for my Dad, who was bashed the Pacers for a few years now, to hop back on the bandwagon. I'm going to give him all kinds of grief, but he's a typical bandwagon fan for the Pacers, although he supported the Colts during their darkest times. I admit I am the opposite: football is much too boring for me to watch if my team is playing poorly, whereas I can watch any two basketball teams play and be entertained. There is just too much downtime in the NFL while the NBA is constant action.

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-09-2008, 11:14 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance

That's the averages for the season. It'll be interesting to see where the Pacers end up when the wins start adding up and we surprise some people.

Also, I agree with you about the NFL. There's just too many commercials for me. It seems like it's a commercial after every drive or kick or return. It's the reason why foreigners prefer soccer a million times over football. I'll be watching JO today at 1 instead of whatever football game is on.

idioteque
11-09-2008, 11:21 AM
I'd love to see how many commercials there are in football compared to a basketball game. I'd bet a football game has close to twice as much- the breaks are more frequent and usually there are like 6 commercials per break. That's just utterly ridiculous to me.

I actually prefer watching soccer over American football sometimes for that very reason. I want some form of constant action.

So the Pacers are currently 25th in attendance if you look at the gross average of the number of fans that have gone to a game- I said earlier 22nd would be a good year for us.

Honestly I like the percent capacity figure better because our arena simply isn't as big as some of the others, if you look at it that way we are 23rd right now which is pretty encouraging and ahead of a few markets that are bigger than ours.

Philadelphia's is really astounding though- they got Elton Brand this year and made the playoffs where they played pretty well last year, it's a big market, and they can only do 12,500?

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-09-2008, 11:34 AM
Yeah it's amazing to me how soccer can go a whole half without commercials, and American football can only go every 5-10 minutes or so. The only problem is the MLS isn't nearly as competitive as Spanish or European leagues.

I can see us passing a couple of the teams ahead of us, like Minnesota and Jersey for example. Jersey for the reasons you mentioned. If VC wants out or they start out really bad I could see them going in tank mode.

22 is probably a good number for us right now.

Philly surprised me too. The only reason I could think, would be that maybe it's more of a football and hockey city than it is basketball. You could also say it's too early to tell. I bet they'll rise as the season goes on.

Roaming Gnome
11-10-2008, 04:45 AM
The commercials in the NFL are about as perfectly placed as you can get for a sport. They are placed in some of the dead times of actual game play. As far as 6 commercials a spot, that is quite an exaggerated take on the 90 second ad spots between possessions. Both NBA and NFL have the same 90 second breaks.

As for soccer, I'm sure Europe can go commercial free for the halves, but there is not enough interest in that for a sponser to do the same here in the states. I wonder what they do with MLS when it's on. I can almost bet that it's filled with ads because of lack of interest on a national level.

Unclebuck
11-10-2008, 08:38 AM
I was shocked that the Sixers attendance is sooo low. They are a good team - although I do know their season home opener was on the same night as a Phillies world series game

gph
11-10-2008, 11:54 AM
As a Philly resident, I can tell you that even when they are bad, the Eagles and Phillies are much more loved than the 76ers. I would go so far as to say Temple, Villanova, and Penn get more bball love. Not sure how to rank the flyers because the stickers, flags, shirts, etc are everywhere, but the attendance is soso. They get a lot of love, just not sure if that translates to attendance.

The 76ers on the other hand, don't get much love or coverage, raltively speaking.

BlueNGold
11-11-2008, 08:58 AM
The Hawks are doing quite a bit better. I'm quite surprised the Lakers don't sell out.

Trophy
04-17-2009, 03:28 PM
The Pistons still lead the league in attendance.