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MillerTime
10-11-2008, 05:53 AM
Williams will forever be plagued by where was drafted, ahead of both Deron Williams and Paul, who since draft night have moved to the head of the point guard class. That fact overshadows what has been steady improvement from the former North Carolina star during the course of his first three years in the league. If you place his career statistics alongside No. 1 pick Bogut’s from their first three years there wouldn’t be a significant difference in the raw numbers. But Bogut is a true center and the foundation of Milwaukee’s future (hence the $72 million, with incentives, extension he received earlier this summer). Williams is also caught up in a financial matrix that the Hawks have to figure out since he, All-Star and captain Joe Johnson and All-Rookie team center Al Horford are eligible for extensions in the next two years.

http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/10/10/hawks_marvin_williams_contract.html

I think Williams and Hibbert could be a good future front court for us. Williams has a decent shot within the perimeter and his post game isnt that bad. Hes making about $5.6 mill this year. I dont know who we could really trade to the Hawks. The definately dont want Tinsley (with Bibby, Claxston and Law, theres no point). Maybe we could give them Rasho for Williams. Or even use part of the MLE to sign Williams?

I think hes exactly what we need. I know he didnt live up to the hype of going before Paul and Deron, but hes still a pretty gifted player. Check out his mix on youtube...i didnt know he could shoot the 3 so well http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=marvin+williams&emb=0&aq=0&oq=marvin+will#

A future of:
Ford
Rush
Granger
Williams
Hibbert

looks very promising to me

Eindar
10-11-2008, 06:30 AM
http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/10/10/hawks_marvin_williams_contract.html

I think Williams and Hibbert could be a good future front court for us. Williams has a decent shot within the perimeter and his post game isnt that bad. Hes making about $5.6 mill this year. I dont know who we could really trade to the Hawks. The definately dont want Tinsley (with Bibby, Claxston and Law, theres no point). Maybe we could give them Rasho for Williams. Or even use part of the MLE to sign Williams?

I think hes exactly what we need. I know he didnt live up to the hype of going before Paul and Deron, but hes still a pretty gifted player. Check out his mix on youtube...i didnt know he could shoot the 3 so well http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=marvin+williams&emb=0&aq=0&oq=marvin+will#

A future of:
Ford
Rush
Granger
Williams
Hibbert

looks very promising to me

That's because he can't. Just because you see it on youtube doesn't mean it's true. He averaged 10% behind the arc last year and is a career 23% shooter. Also, he's not a PF. Neither is Josh Smith, but Smith was the one guarding the PF when they were on the floor together.

Basically, we have no need for him at the SF spot, and I don't think he'll ever be a PF, or at least, no more than Shawne Williams was going to be a PF, and at least Shawne could actually hit the 3.

Nothing wrong with looking to pick up a prospect on the cheap, but I think this is a bad fit.

PacerGuy
10-11-2008, 06:32 AM
But we just got rid of a Williams, I don't think we're ready for another (unless his first name is Derron!).
Seriously though, MW is an OK player, but he does nothing really well. He is solid, but not special. I see his game now as S.Williams best possible upside result. The size & athleticism is there, but the "flow" that is needed on the court is not (for either guy IMO).
PS. His 3pt shooting is not even worth mentioning. See his stats.

PSS. Besides, w/ Dun, Granger, Rush where do you see him playing? He is NOT a 4!

MillerTime
10-11-2008, 06:38 AM
But we just got rid of a Williams, I don't think we're ready for another (unless his first name is Derron!).
Seriously though, MW is an OK player, but he does nothing really well. He is solid, but not special. I see his game now as S.Williams best possible upside result. The size & athleticism is there, but the "flow" that is needed on the court is not (for either guy IMO).
PS. His 3pt shooting is not even worth mentioning. See his stats.

PSS. Besides, w/ Dun, Granger, Rush where do you see him playing? He is NOT a 4!

Ive always thought he was a PF. If hes another swingman, then ill agree, we dont have no room for him

Justin Tyme
10-11-2008, 07:00 AM
The Pacers need a "POWER FORWARD" and neither he nor Shawne are one. Pass on Marvin.

Major Cold
10-11-2008, 08:13 AM
Even if he was a PF would he get the opportunity he needs to get an extension or lobby for a good contract. MW is not a good rebounder or defender. Something this team needs at the PF.

Anthem
10-11-2008, 12:07 PM
I don't even think the Pacers need a PF. They've got Murphy and Foster there already... nobody else is going to get minutes (including Austin).

rexnom
10-11-2008, 04:19 PM
I don't even think the Pacers need a PF. They've got Murphy and Foster there already... nobody else is going to get minutes (including Austin).
Yup, this is also why we don't need Howard, Garnett, Bosh or any of them.

QuickRelease
10-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Marvin could play PF in this offense.

Anthem
10-11-2008, 04:49 PM
Yup, this is also why we don't need Howard, Garnett, Bosh or any of them.
If it was remotely possible to get those guys then the situation might be different. But we're talking about Marvin Williams here.

rexnom
10-11-2008, 08:49 PM
If it was remotely possible to get those guys then the situation might be different. But we're talking about Marvin Williams here.
Yeah, as MrsParko would say, we're not talking about a guy who built the railroads here...

JayRedd
10-11-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of MrsParko.

But, indeed, I think she would say that and, indeed, it is fantastic.

McKeyFan
10-11-2008, 10:34 PM
Marvin Williams reminds me of Larry Hughes. Pure athletic talent that never really does much when it matters.

DisplacedKnick
10-12-2008, 06:55 AM
If it was remotely possible to get those guys then the situation might be different. But we're talking about Marvin Williams here.

Who happens to have more talent than any Pacer not named Granger.

In some places a 22-year-old who averages 15 and 6 on the same team as Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith might be considered pretty good - and if he was a Pacer he'd be considered a future all-star on this board.

You don't need him anyway but to get him you'd have to give up a lot. (Probably, though we are talking the Hawks here)

Plax80
10-12-2008, 08:23 AM
Yup, this is also why we don't need Howard, Garnett, Bosh or any of them.


On this team, any of those three guys by themselves wouldn't be any more relevant than McRoberts.

Why ask the Simon's to pay any more money for this ***** team larry has put together.

MillerTime
10-12-2008, 08:53 AM
On this team, any of those three guys by themselves wouldn't be any more relevant than McRoberts.

Why ask the Simon's to pay any more money for this ***** team larry has put together.

Larry has done so good so far as first year of having control of the team. Its not like he had a lot to work with. I think Larry has done such a great job so far.

Hicks
10-12-2008, 08:59 AM
I'll decided around December/January what kind of team this is, not after 2 preseason games.

As it stands, there's a lot of work to be done, but I'm far from convinced I know all of what this team can/can't do.

We haven't even seen it with two of its starters yet; its second best (third this year?) player yet.

Plax80
10-12-2008, 11:09 AM
Larry has done so good so far as first year of having control of the team. Its not like he had a lot to work with. I think Larry has done such a great job so far.

If eliminating talented players who have committed misdeameanors in their early 20s while bringing in a collection of D league players qualifies as great personnel moves than I guess you are right.

We have two maybe three players who are rotation players on a good team and none of them would be the focal point or even the second option on a good team.

Anthem
10-12-2008, 12:27 PM
In some places a 22-year-old who averages 15 and 6 on the same team as Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith might be considered pretty good - and if he was a Pacer he'd be considered a future all-star on this board.
Yeah, that's exactly what this team needs. I bet Larry woke up this morning and said "I wish we could find a PF who averages 6 rebounds a game."

I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm saying he doesn't significantly upgrade our PF spot.

rexnom
10-12-2008, 12:34 PM
The thing with Marvin Williams is that he's really a SF. He starts with Josh Smith and Al Horford who provide more than enough "power" for that team. He's a good fit in Atlanta, I think, but definitely not here.

Young
10-12-2008, 12:41 PM
Marvin could play PF in this offense.

While this may be true I don't want that. I want a player who can play PF in any offense. Atleast when you are talking a likely key player such as Marvin.

I want to see a much more physical PF. Someone who can score down low and get easy points. Also, someone who can rebound really well.

We don't need to be in a rush here. We have some really solid players there that we can make the playoffs with this year.

DisplacedKnick
10-12-2008, 12:43 PM
Yeah, that's exactly what this team needs. I bet Larry woke up this morning and said "I wish we could find a PF who averages 6 rebounds a game."

I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm saying he doesn't significantly upgrade our PF spot.

Since he is not and never will be a power forward why would you expect him to?

Jim R
10-12-2008, 01:07 PM
http://www.ajc.com/hawks/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/10/10/hawks_marvin_williams_contract.html

I think Williams and Hibbert could be a good future front court for us. Williams has a decent shot within the perimeter and his post game isnt that bad. Hes making about $5.6 mill this year. I dont know who we could really trade to the Hawks. The definately dont want Tinsley (with Bibby, Claxston and Law, theres no point). Maybe we could give them Rasho for Williams. Or even use part of the MLE to sign Williams?

I think hes exactly what we need. I know he didnt live up to the hype of going before Paul and Deron, but hes still a pretty gifted player. Check out his mix on youtube...i didnt know he could shoot the 3 so well http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=marvin+williams&emb=0&aq=0&oq=marvin+will#

A future of:
Ford
Rush
Granger
Williams
Hibbert

looks very promising to me


The problem with Marvin Williams is what position is he? If Hibbert can prove to be an effective shot blocker or shot deterrent at the rim, perhaps Williams can guard PF, but I don't see Williams being effective vs. stronger PF in the league.

Assuming Brandon Rush and Hibbert both develop, which is a lot to ask of two mid-first round picks, Rush is a reputed good defender. TJ Ford is disruptive on defense, though not a stopper. (He at least cares about it, as does Jarrett Jack, whereas Tinsley doesn't.) Granger is adequate and improving. There would be a lot of offense out there with that group. I'd much rather see the Pacers go with a bigger body, even a strong low post presence.

That PF spot, especially with a skilled center, needs to be a grunt, much like the days of Rik Smits and the Davises or JO and Jeff Foster. It would be nice if he could be a star caliber player too, but it's hard to get. The closest to it is Portland with Greg Oden and LaMarcus Aldridge, but those are a #1 and #2 pick in consecutive rookie drafts. The Pacers aren't likely to see that.

If the Pacers felt Williams, at the SF spot, had more potential than Granger and Mike Dunleavy, I'd be OK with them going in that direction, moving Granger and Dunleavy to make room for a PF, but I don't see that as being the case.

JayRedd
10-12-2008, 01:22 PM
In some places a 22-year-old who averages 15 and 6 on the same team as Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith might be considered pretty good - and if he was a Pacer he'd be considered a future all-star on this board.

We really don't need all this rational thought around here. Take that nonsense back to your Knicks board.

rexnom
10-12-2008, 01:26 PM
Who happens to have more talent than any Pacer not named Granger.

In some places a 22-year-old who averages 15 and 6 on the same team as Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith might be considered pretty good - and if he was a Pacer he'd be considered a future all-star on this board.

You don't need him anyway but to get him you'd have to give up a lot. (Probably, though we are talking the Hawks here)
And that's the crux of the issue. It's not that Williams is a bad player. He's a good, young and still improving player. The problem is that for what we'd have to give up, he's not worth it, especially considering our current roster.

JayRedd
10-12-2008, 01:29 PM
And that's the crux of the issue. It's not that Williams is a bad player. He's a good, young and still improving player. The problem is that for what we'd have to give up, he's not worth it, especially considering our current roster.

The additional problem is that we have literally nothing the Hawks would want outside of Granger and maybe TJ, neither of whom we're trading for Marvin Williams at this stage of our franchise.

kester99
10-12-2008, 01:30 PM
I don't even think the Pacers need a PF. They've got Murphy and Foster there already... nobody else is going to get minutes (including Austin).


All it needs is for one of these two to go down with an injury for a few weeks...that's not unlikely.

And I'm not saying keep Austin. But someone's going to get minutes.

Quis
10-12-2008, 01:50 PM
There's nothing enticing about Marvin Williams to make him worth pursuing. He's a tweener who has some talent but ultimately doesn't do anything above average. In other words, he's on his way to being Al Harrington II. Not even close to what we should be looking for.

Granger, Ford, and as of right now, Dunleavy are all more valuable players in this league, and both Rush and Hibbert have the potential to be as well.

Anthem
10-12-2008, 01:56 PM
Since he is not and never will be a power forward why would you expect him to?
I'm puzzled.

Isn't this whole conversation about aquiring a PF for the Pacers? I was specifically responding to the comparison of Williams with "Howard, Garnett, and Bosh." I said those guys would help our PF rotation but Williams wouldn't.

Why are you fighting me on this?

Plax80
10-12-2008, 10:11 PM
There's nothing enticing about Marvin Williams to make him worth pursuing. He's a tweener who has some talent but ultimately doesn't do anything above average. In other words, he's on his way to being Al Harrington II. Not even close to what we should be looking for.

Granger, Ford, and as of right now, Dunleavy are all more valuable players in this league, and both Rush and Hibbert have the potential to be as well.

Atlanta wouldn't trade Marvin williams for any of those players with the possible exception of Granger. Williams was the #2 pick in the Paul and Deron Williams draft and was drafted on "potential" 5 years down the road. Why would Atlanta give up on him now three years into. The guy is like 21 yrs old. His body will not look the same in 3-4 years from now.

Roy Hibbert and Brandon Rush were mid to late first rd picks in a weak draft filled with picks that no one even wanted to make after Jerryd Bayless.

They have almost no value to anyone besides us.

We have the worst roster in the NBA and it isn't even close. Memphis has three or four players that they wouldn't trade us for anybody on our roster..........what does that tell you ???

Geez-

What happenned to Indiana basketball fans.........we used to have a clue about judging players and teams in this state.

McKeyFan
10-12-2008, 10:35 PM
I've never used the ignore option, but I'm getting very close to breaking it in.

Hicks
10-12-2008, 10:42 PM
Geez-

What happenned to Indiana basketball fans.........we used to have a clue about judging players and teams in this state.

If that's your attitude..... feel free to leave.

Plax80
10-12-2008, 10:49 PM
I don't like being this pessimistic about the Pacers. This is the most pessimism I've felt since teh days of Clark kellogg adn herb Williams and Wayman Tisdale and even then I thought we'd be awesome in September and early October.

But this roster is garbage and trading Shawne Williams who was arguably the most talented player on the roster for two 2nd's because he has some iffy friends is pretty remarkable.

Memphis has :

Conley
Mayo
Gay
Gasol

I can't imagine them trading any of the four for Granger or any other Pacer ........maybe because of PG depth they might trade Conley for Danny.

But thats how bad this roster is. Memphis.....who is terrible has four commodities more valuable than any that we have.

Everybody here loves Granger and he is a good player.............but guess what ...........SF who score 18 pts/gm and play decent defense are not a rare commodity in the NBA.

You can find one on almost EVERY NBA team.

We aren't making a deep playoff run just because we also happen to have one of those players.

MillerTime
10-12-2008, 10:53 PM
If eliminating talented players who have committed misdeameanors in their early 20s while bringing in a collection of D league players qualifies as great personnel moves than I guess you are right.

We have two maybe three players who are rotation players on a good team and none of them would be the focal point or even the second option on a good team.

Misdemeanors? Or felonies? Misdemeanors are less than serious. Shooting up a night club, assaulting a bar manager, running into the stands and assaulting fans are NOT misdemeanors, they are indictable offenses.

Shawne Williams committed misdemeanors, but Bird did give him chances, plenty of them. He even let Shawne play in the summer league and preseason. Shawne couldnt show any signs of improvement and growth so we had to part ways.

You consider Ford a D league player? Granger a D league player? Even Jack isnt considered a D league player, he might not be a quality starter but he for sure is a quality backup

count55
10-12-2008, 11:11 PM
I've never used the ignore option, but I'm getting very close to breaking it in.

Won't help...people will just quote 'em.

BlueNGold
10-12-2008, 11:34 PM
Plax - man, did you take your meds today? You know the T-Wolves are still in the NBA, right? Just kidding, dude.

The Pacers are definitely in the bottom half of the league talent-wise....maybe as low as bottom 5 in the league...but I would place them around 20th. Raw talent, however, does not always translate into W's....which is all that matters in the end. The bottom line? The Pacers record this coming season will not be drastically different than last season. No cellar, no penthouse...

BlueNGold
10-12-2008, 11:46 PM
I've never used the ignore option, but I'm getting very close to breaking it in.

That was my initial reaction...due to the credibility vacuum....but I turned around and fed the animals anyway... Nothing wrong with a little criticism, but it has to be remotely believable.

Plax80
10-13-2008, 11:51 AM
Misdemeanors? Or felonies? Misdemeanors are less than serious. Shooting up a night club, assaulting a bar manager, running into the stands and assaulting fans are NOT misdemeanors, they are indictable offenses.

Shawne Williams committed misdemeanors, but Bird did give him chances, plenty of them. He even let Shawne play in the summer league and preseason. Shawne couldnt show any signs of improvement and growth so we had to part ways.

You consider Ford a D league player? Granger a D league player? Even Jack isnt considered a D league player, he might not be a quality starter but he for sure is a quality backup

I really don't want to go down this road.

I'll simply say this........I can only imagine how I would have behaved at age 21 if I was a multi-millionaire ..........6-9 pro athlete.

I don't believe Williams' misgivings were on par with Kobe's or Melo's or lots of others. Even MJ and Larry legend have several cans of worms in their personel lives.

I'm not completely ignoring bad behavior and its true he probbaly needs to distance himself from some childhood friends........but he is obviously a pretty good kid and a heckuva talent. To trash that for PR reasons is bizarre on a team as desperate for talented players as this one is.

Maybe its coming from the Simon's themselves who are more comfortable with 20 win seasons than anymore latenight news headlines involving their players.

ifthats the case........than fine. You cn't blame them for wantingto protect their corporate image which is far more important business wise than the Pacers. But its sad to see a team get this bad this quick.

Plax80
10-13-2008, 11:54 AM
Plax - man, did you take your meds today? You know the T-Wolves are still in the NBA, right? Just kidding, dude.

The Pacers are definitely in the bottom half of the league talent-wise....maybe as low as bottom 5 in the league...but I would place them around 20th. Raw talent, however, does not always translate into W's....which is all that matters in the end. The bottom line? The Pacers record this coming season will not be drastically different than last season. No cellar, no penthouse...

With all due respect-

Minnesota has :

Jefferson
Foye
Brewer
Love

Only Granger exceeds the value of any of those four and he is below jefferson and possibly Love and possibly Foye.

I'm only slightly kidding when I say nbo other team trades rosters with us.

Maybe the Knicks and Nets do. But clearly no one else would remotely consider it.

Speed
10-13-2008, 12:00 PM
I don't like being this pessimistic about the Pacers. This is the most pessimism I've felt since teh days of Clark kellogg adn herb Williams and Wayman Tisdale and even then I thought we'd be awesome in September and early October.

But this roster is garbage and trading Shawne Williams who was arguably the most talented player on the roster for two 2nd's because he has some iffy friends is pretty remarkable.

Memphis has :

Conley
Mayo
Gay
Gasol

I can't imagine them trading any of the four for Granger or any other Pacer ........maybe because of PG depth they might trade Conley for Danny.

But thats how bad this roster is. Memphis.....who is terrible has four commodities more valuable than any that we have.

Everybody here loves Granger and he is a good player.............but guess what ...........SF who score 18 pts/gm and play decent defense are not a rare commodity in the NBA.

You can find one on almost EVERY NBA team.

We aren't making a deep playoff run just because we also happen to have one of those players.

I just disagree with almost everything here. Can I just say that and not go point by point?

I will say one thing, Shawne Williams being here or not will have NOTHING to do with how good this team is or will be. He just isn't that important.

croz24
10-13-2008, 12:07 PM
if you can get marvin williams for relatively cheap, you do it.

Major Cold
10-13-2008, 12:17 PM
"cheap"

Major Cold
10-13-2008, 12:20 PM
Atlanta wouldn't trade Marvin williams for any of those players with the possible exception of Granger. Williams was the #2 pick in the Paul and Deron Williams draft and was drafted on "potential" 5 years down the road. Why would Atlanta give up on him now three years into. The guy is like 21 yrs old. His body will not look the same in 3-4 years from now.

Roy Hibbert and Brandon Rush were mid to late first rd picks in a weak draft filled with picks that no one even wanted to make after Jerryd Bayless.

They have almost no value to anyone besides us.

We have the worst roster in the NBA and it isn't even close. Memphis has three or four players that they wouldn't trade us for anybody on our roster..........what does that tell you ???

Geez-

What happenned to Indiana basketball fans.........we used to have a clue about judging players and teams in this state.

Quality Players>>>>>>>>>>>Potential Draft pick selection

It is not about trade value. It is about winning. And nether the Hawks or Griz have won more than us recently. We should never develop a roster like the Hawks or Grizz. And when we do the Pacers might be on the selling block.

JayRedd
10-13-2008, 12:24 PM
The Hawks actually made the Playoffs last year.

And we should definitely develop a roster with guys like Joe Johnson and Al Horford.

BlueNGold
10-13-2008, 12:27 PM
With all due respect-

Minnesota has :

Jefferson
Foye
Brewer
Love

Only Granger exceeds the value of any of those four and he is below jefferson and possibly Love and possibly Foye.

I'm only slightly kidding when I say nbo other team trades rosters with us.

Maybe the Knicks and Nets do. But clearly no one else would remotely consider it.

I'll go with you on Jefferson, but otherwise....wow.

I think you are confusing potential with actual proof. TJ Ford, Granger and Dunleavy are all pretty good players...and have proven it on the court. Foye averaged 13ppg @ 42% with 4 assists in 32 minutes. Ford averaged 12ppg @ 47% with 6 assists in just 23 minutes. It's clear Ford was more efficient and a better distributer in the time he had on the court. BTW, Ford's numbers will dwarf that this year with added minutes. It should be no surprise the T-Wolves were terrible last year and the Raptors made the playoffs.

Brewer averaged 5.8ppg last season for the T-Wolves and 19% from 3pt range. Comparing Brewer's lack of production to Dunleavy's record year is just flat out embarrassing. I think you know it's not even remotely close.

While we talk about potential, what about Love? He's an unathletic, undersized PF and should have a brief unproductive career. How's that? We have a 7'2" true Center who will be in the league for the next 15 years and probably block anything Love brings to the rim. With Rush, we have the next Paul Pierce at SG. BTW, who won the NCAA's again? Was it Love or Rush..... :D

JayRedd
10-13-2008, 12:28 PM
With Rush, we have the next Paul Pierce at SG.

Yall are killing me.

Major Cold
10-13-2008, 12:29 PM
The Hawks actually made the Playoffs last year.

And we should definitely develop a roster with guys like Joe Johnson and Al Horford.

Joe Johnson came by them spending money and having the cap to do so. They had to suck forever to maintain that cap space. If people want potential dripping from their roster like these teams then I don't want to hear complaints when this team sucks for 7 years straight. And if that happens, get use to the name Seattle Pacers.

rexnom
10-13-2008, 12:31 PM
The Hawks actually made the Playoffs last year.

And we should definitely develop a roster with guys like Joe Johnson and Al Horford.
I mean, to be fair, for how supposedly terrible we are and for the immense talent gap between us and Atlanta, we finished, what, a game behind them? Clearly it's not all about talent and trade value.

Plax80
10-13-2008, 12:38 PM
The Hawks actually made the Playoffs last year.

And we should definitely develop a roster with guys like Joe Johnson and Al Horford.

There is still one intelligent fan on this board.

Thank you.

And Josh Smith isn't bad either.

BlueNGold
10-13-2008, 12:39 PM
Yall are killing me.

Ok, I am getting a little carried away with Rush. Just one good preseason outing and I have in the HOF...:laugh:

Plax80
10-13-2008, 12:42 PM
I'll go with you on Jefferson, but otherwise....wow.

I think you are confusing potential with actual proof. TJ Ford, Granger and Dunleavy are all pretty good players...and have proven it on the court. Foye averaged 13ppg @ 42% with 4 assists in 32 minutes. Ford averaged 12ppg @ 47% with 6 assists in just 23 minutes. It's clear Ford was more efficient and a better distributer in the time he had on the court. BTW, Ford's numbers will dwarf that this year with added minutes. It should be no surprise the T-Wolves were terrible last year and the Raptors made the playoffs.

Brewer averaged 5.8ppg last season for the T-Wolves and 19% from 3pt range. Comparing Brewer's lack of production to Dunleavy's record year is just flat out embarrassing. I think you know it's not even remotely close.

While we talk about potential, what about Love? He's an unathletic, undersized PF and should have a brief unproductive career. How's that? We have a 7'2" true Center who will be in the league for the next 15 years and probably block anything Love brings to the rim. With Rush, we have the next Paul Pierce at SG. BTW, who won the NCAA's again? Was it Love or Rush..... :D

Ford may be SLIGHTLY better than Foye as of right now.

He's also 5 years older and makes $32mm over four years where as Foye costs next to nothing and has room to improve and has no injury history to be weary of.

I'll guiarantee you that because of all those reasons and others Foye has more value as a commodity than Ford.

Not to mention, there is a reaosn that Ford was on the bench during every fourth qtr of Raptors games.... so to characterize him as a main cog in Toronto's wheel is a complete joke.

BlueNGold
10-13-2008, 12:42 PM
There is still one intelligent fan on this board.

JayRedd or you?

BlueNGold
10-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Ford may be SLIGHTLY better than Foye as of right now.

Ok, here's a start down the road to reality. Now, let's talk about Dun v Brewer...


Edit: Ok, I am done jousting with you. We'll see how the T-Wolves perform this year....

Plax80
10-13-2008, 12:49 PM
JayRedd or you?

Jay Redd.

I still like Artest and Shawne Williams and JO and Daniels.

Plax80
10-13-2008, 12:53 PM
Ok, here's a start down the road to reality. Now, let's talk about Dun v Brewer...


Edit: Ok, I am done jousting with you. We'll see how the T-Wolves perform this year....


Dun is obviously the better player as of now. But salaries and potential do factor into the equation.

You mistaking my contention that we have the worst roster in the league as meaning that we will win the fewest games this season.

i never said that and they don;t mean the same thing.

If next June we could trade our entire roster for the first 4 picks in the draft.........would we do it ???

Of course we would.

But we would likely lose more games the following year .............the two are not intertwined.

Plax80
10-13-2008, 12:54 PM
I mean, to be fair, for how supposedly terrible we are and for the immense talent gap between us and Atlanta, we finished, what, a game behind them? Clearly it's not all about talent and trade value.

Its not about finding ways to get to 32 wins either.

Speed
10-13-2008, 01:00 PM
I, personally, am not a Marvin Williams fan, he reminds me of a young Al Harrington.

Plus, as many have said, he's not a PF.

Justin Tyme
10-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Foye costs next to nothing and has room to improve and has no injury history to be weary of.

How many games did Foye play in last season for the T-Wolves? Or should I ask how many games was he out with an injury? Just so you don't have to look it up, Foye played in 39 games and missed 43....that's over half a season. Just in case it slipped your mind!

Major Cold
10-14-2008, 03:24 PM
This is a pointless argument. My point is that you need a blend of experience and youth. Name a Championship team that had a two-three year player bring them all the way to Glory Road?

Wade? That is the closest thing. Eventually Foye and Brewer will have similar contracts to that of For and Dunleavy. The question is will they succeed?

JayRedd
10-14-2008, 08:58 PM
My point is that you need a blend of experience and youth. Name a Championship team that had a two-three year player bring them all the way to Glory Road?

Wade? That is the closest thing.

I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, but Magic did it as a rookie; Timmy and Larry did it in year two; and Walton, DJ (and Sikma) and Flash all did it in year three. (And Kobe did it in year four...at 22.)