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View Full Version : Shawne Williams traded to Dallas for Eddie Jones, 2 2nd Rounders, $1.8mm



D23
10-10-2008, 02:18 PM
As per Indystar:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081010/SPORTS04/81010033/1088



Pacers trade Williams to Dallas


The Indiana Pacers have traded swingman Shawne Williams to Dallas, two people with knowledge said today.

The Pacers will receive two second-round picks and cash.

Williams averaged 6.7 points in two seasons with the Pacers, but several off-court incidents put the franchise in a bad light and made him expendable.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2008, 02:20 PM
wow well we trimmed our roster down


2 picks and cash possibly used for tinsley trade???

Kuq_e_Zi91
10-10-2008, 02:20 PM
Wow ... the day came. I don't even know how to feel, or what to say. I thought this was a joke when I first opened it. I'm speechless. There goes one roster spot. Cash considerations? Aka money to give to Denver for Jamaal??

Shade
10-10-2008, 02:21 PM
Meh. I guess it's better than cutting him (which I feared we would do).

Dallas wins the trade, no doubt. But we got a roster spot and cash, which we wanted.

Another blown draft pick by Bird. Awesome. But, hey, we got those second-rounders back from the James White trade! :yay: :shakehead

D23
10-10-2008, 02:22 PM
Yeah, I'm also wondering if this cash + draft picks are to be used as sweetener for the potential Tinsley deal... I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Shade
10-10-2008, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I'm also wondering if this cash + draft picks are to be used as sweetener for the potential Tinsley deal... I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Clear a roster spot just to do a 1-for-2 trade? Yep, sounds like something we'd do alright. :rolleyes:

Btw, I'm not :rolleyes: at you, D23.

Kuq_e_Zi91
10-10-2008, 02:24 PM
If they are, brilliant move by Bird. Open up a roster spot, get money back in return to use for another trade. What an off-season...finish strong Larry!

Evan_The_Dude
10-10-2008, 02:25 PM
Wow. So much for my "Too soon" statement in the thread from earlier. Now Rick Carlisle gets to make a player out of him.

Shade
10-10-2008, 02:26 PM
I guess I can't be too bitter about this; Shawne dug his own grave.

I'm more-or-less disappointed with Bird's drafting history. Granger was a no-brainer. Everything else has been a bust so far. I hope Rush and Hibbert turn out to be the exception to the rule, but I'm not holding my breath.

NuffSaid
10-10-2008, 02:28 PM
Wow ... the day came. I don't even know how to feel, or what to say. I thought this was a joke when I first opened it. I'm speechless. There goes one roster spot. Cash considerations? Aka money to give to Denver for Jamaal??
Make it happen, capt'n! I'll dance a jig if this is a pre-cursor to moving Tinsley.

Trader Joe
10-10-2008, 02:28 PM
The kid isn't that good at basketball. Good job cutting our losses with him before he did something really stupid.

deekay85
10-10-2008, 02:29 PM
yes sir!!!

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 02:33 PM
That is probably for the best - we weren't going to re-sign him anyway and he wasn't going to get much playing time this season - plus his off the court problems were his undoing

I still think the kid has a lot of offensive talent - but we'll see if he ever amounts to much. Dallas is probably a pretty good place for him. Getting second draft picks means nothing to me

Yeah it was a bad draft pick by Bird.

D23
10-10-2008, 02:35 PM
Ok, I just had to say it... I can't wait to see the look on Carlisle's face the first time Shawne and Josh Howard get caught tokin' it up together :eek:

ajbry
10-10-2008, 02:36 PM
Mavs now have quite the swingman tandem, filled to the brim with potential, with Shawne and Gerald Green.

Good move for both sides. Low risk for Dallas and Pacers get useful cash.

Phildog
10-10-2008, 02:36 PM
Anyone know how this affects our cap situation?

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 02:37 PM
So does this mean Mike Wells actually broke a story

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 02:38 PM
Anyone know how this affects our cap situation?

That is a good point - how can Dallas do this without sending a player our way ?????? - they are over the cap

Gyron
10-10-2008, 02:42 PM
I think you can trade cash and a pick, even when you are over the cap....I could be wrong though....

aceace
10-10-2008, 02:46 PM
Ok, I just had to say it... I can't wait to see the look on Carlisle's face the first time Shawne and Josh Howard get caught tokin' it up together :eek:Good one, made me LOL. From Hoopshype and I quote "Eddie Jones is also rumored to be involved, though."

Speed
10-10-2008, 02:46 PM
EDDIE of Eddie and Kravitz KNEW something, he called this over the weekend on his blog???!?!?!?

http://www.1070thefan.com/kravitzandeddie/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10009899

10/4/08

....we had Peter Vecsey of the NY Post on our show on Thursday. That's when he first talked about Tinsley going to Denver. he also mentioned that Golden State and Miami were interested in JT. Then on Friday Vecsey put it in his NY Post column and then it all hit the fan. It was on radio, TV, in the papers and there were (of course) denials ALL over the place. Now it looks the deal will get done early this week. Just remember where u heard it first.

Right here on Kravitz and Eddie, 1070 The Fan. .....Peter is a always entertaining guest. Some people like him, some don't but he IS wired. the true original NBA insider.

Speaking of the Pacers now that they have Tinsley OUT of town. who's next? well of course, Shawne Williams. That seems to be the next guy OFF the roster. They are already overloaded on players on the roster. And we know Larry Bird is ON record as warning Shawne. Larry really really really likes Shawne as a player. Really does. But his off court antics have hurt the team. Coach O'Brien has had enough of Shawne.

Look for the Pacers, looking to make room and get numbers down, to dump Shawne to a west coast team for a couple of draft picks. They don't need players back. They gotta get rid of bodies. So dumping Shawne (who I think WILL become a very very good player in this league; he CAN play) for some 2nd round draft picks and some cash is the right thing to do. I know the Lakers and Mavs like Shawne. Would make sense for all concerned.

First preseason game is this week. I can't wait to see this NEW team. Buy a game program - we'll need it to know ALL the new guys!! Ha.
go pacers!

RamBo_Lamar
10-10-2008, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I'm also wondering if this cash + draft picks are to be used as sweetener for the potential Tinsley deal... I guess we'll find out soon enough.


Yes Sir!!! WTG TPTB!!!

A verrry good move for the Pacers. It sure would be interesting to know how much cash was
involved...hopefully enough to help facilitate another pending move take place.

Thank You Dallas, and I hope Shawne works out for you.


:happydanc:happydanc:happydanc:happydanc

Major Cold
10-10-2008, 02:49 PM
Gerald Green and Shawne Williams...prove that athleticism is not all that matters.

Roaming Gnome
10-10-2008, 02:49 PM
umm...I thought M Wells broke the JO trade and the Toronto papers latched on.

Pacemaker
10-10-2008, 02:51 PM
I can't wait for the next move !!! :dance:

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 02:52 PM
Makes sense that Eddie Jones has to be involved, otherwise the Mavs wouldn't be able to take on a salary. Pacers will waive EJ then

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 02:53 PM
Meh. I guess it's better than cutting him (which I feared we would do).

Dallas wins the trade, no doubt. But we got a roster spot and cash, which we wanted.

Another blown draft pick by Bird. Awesome. But, hey, we got those second-rounders back from the James White trade! :yay: :shakehead


I've said it b4, and I'll say it again...... Bird is a poor evaluator of talent. What has he really drafted other than Granger who was a no brainer pick. Bird had better hope that the 08 picks pan out better than Williams and White. He's only got this year and next on his contract. Bird had better get better at drafting, or he'll be doing a lot of fishing, golfing, and making wine.

I never liked nor wanted what Bird ended up getting out of the 08 draft. As a Pacer fan, I hope they materialize into some good players, but I'm not overly optimistic.

rexnom
10-10-2008, 02:54 PM
I think the that acknowledging when you've made a mistake and trying to cut your losses is a lost art in this league. Joe Dumars has it (turning Darko into Stuckey) and I think Bird has it too. GM's can't be afraid to say "I made a mistake."

That #17 pick was a sunk cost. It wasn't going to turn into Rajon Rondo just by our wishing it would and holding onto Shawne for too long. At least we got something out of it.

Hicks
10-10-2008, 02:55 PM
I guess I can't be too bitter about this; Shawne dug his own grave.

I'm more-or-less disappointed with Bird's drafting history. Granger was a no-brainer. Everything else has been a bust so far. I hope Rush and Hibbert turn out to be the exception to the rule, but I'm not holding my breath.

Considering Bird's drafted 5 1st round picks, if they pan out, they, along with Danny, make it the rule, not the exception. And really, Harrison wasn't bad considering it was the last pick in the round.

Major Cold
10-10-2008, 02:55 PM
does dallas have a second pick from njn?

Hicks
10-10-2008, 02:59 PM
If Eddie Jones is coming here, and we want to make the playoffs, we should not cut him.

Also, I do like that Bird is willing to cut his losses instead of holding on for season after season in hopes it turns in his favor.

It's funny/sad. Almost a year ago, I was thinking about getting an authentic Shawne Williams jersey in anticipation of him breaking out like Danny did.

rexnom
10-10-2008, 03:02 PM
If Eddie Jones is coming here, and we want to make the playoffs, we should not cut him.

Also, I do like that Bird is willing to cut his losses instead of holding on for season after season in hopes it turns in his favor.

It's funny/sad. Almost a year ago, I was thinking about getting an authentic Shawne Williams jersey in anticipation of him breaking out like Danny did.
I agree...I wouldn't be so quick to cut Eddie Jones. At worst, he's a vet backup at 3. At least let him battle it out with Graham.

count55
10-10-2008, 03:02 PM
Anyone know how this affects our cap situation?


That is a good point - how can Dallas do this without sending a player our way ?????? - they are over the cap


I think you can trade cash and a pick, even when you are over the cap....I could be wrong though....

Well, if the deal is as stated, it reduces our payroll by about $1.6.

However, I'm as confused as Buck. Dallas could do it with a Trade Exception, but I can't find any record of them having one available.

You can trade cash and picks, but the problem is that Dallas is taking back salary, and they can only do that with players on Mininum Player contracts.

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:03 PM
WOW

Hicks
10-10-2008, 03:03 PM
http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/sierra/2008/10/10/shawne-williams-now-a-maverick/


Pacers forward Shawne Williams has been dealt to the Dallas Mavericks, two different sources told HoopsHype.com. The move will be announced at 4.30 pm EST, one of them said.

The trade will send Eddie Jones to the Pacers, according to one source. Jones will subsequently be waived. Draft picks and cash are also be involved.

The 6-foot-9 Williams, selected by Indiana in the first round of the 2006 draft, was in hot water with the Pacers’ management following several off-the-court incidents. He will now get a fresh start with Rick Carlisle’s Mavs.

*sigh*

He probably heads right back to Dallas in a month or whenever it's valid to. Just like they tried to do with Stackhouse last year until he ran his mouth.

Major Cold
10-10-2008, 03:04 PM
do we know for sure if Bird solely picked Shawne? Seems to me that once Walsh is gone things are getting done.

naptownmenace
10-10-2008, 03:07 PM
That is probably for the best - we weren't going to re-sign him anyway and he wasn't going to get much playing time this season - plus his off the court problems were his undoing

I still think the kid has a lot of offensive talent - but we'll see if he ever amounts to much. Dallas is probably a pretty good place for him. Getting second draft picks means nothing to me

Yeah it was a bad draft pick by Bird.

Yes, yes, and yes. I still wish we would've drafted Jordan Farmer.

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:08 PM
I am still surprised. I have no problem letting go of Shawne, however.

Anthem
10-10-2008, 03:08 PM
do we know for sure if Bird solely picked Shawne? Seems to me that once Walsh is gone things are getting done.
Very much so. He went out of his way to say they were his picks.

If anyone else was involved, it was Carlisle. Shawne's destination bears that out.

NapTonius Monk
10-10-2008, 03:08 PM
We sure could use the veteran influence of a player like Eddie Jones. I would really like to see him tutor Rush for a season.

count55
10-10-2008, 03:09 PM
So the cash is probably to pay Eddie Jones' salary.

Maybe Denver will take the two 2's instead ?

TMJ31
10-10-2008, 03:09 PM
Shocking development!

I am happy to get the roster spot though, perhaps this increases our chances of keeping Cro... Which makes me happy because he's a classy guy and deserves to retire a Pacer!

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 03:10 PM
Yes, yes, and yes. I still wish we would've drafted Jordan Farmer.

I like Rhondo better

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:11 PM
Tinsley is next.

Hicks
10-10-2008, 03:11 PM
do we know for sure if Bird solely picked Shawne? Seems to me that once Walsh is gone things are getting done.

Even while Wash was here, the draft became Bird's thing.

aceace
10-10-2008, 03:11 PM
IMHO we are getting ready to make a few more deals. Eddie Jones is still pretty good maybe we are going to send him in another deal. Maybe Graham will be packaged with Tin in a 2-2 trade. Wouldn't a Foster/Tinsley/Jones/Daniels/Baston pick (some combination there of) to Miami for Marion be nice... dreaming.

RamBo_Lamar
10-10-2008, 03:12 PM
Bird should not be held responsible for Shawne and Harrison being blown
picks.

It was those two players that made the choices that led to them being
blown.

Letting Shawne go is a step in the right direction...the guy is a lost cause.
It certainly showed on the court the other day at the colliseum.

Keep up the good work TPTB!!!

count55
10-10-2008, 03:21 PM
First, I'm comfortable with saying that Bird's responsible for Harrison and Williams.

I don't really consider Harrison a blown pick, because it was a low risk-high reward opportunity. If he maxed out, he was a great pick. If not, the last pick in the 1st round is hardly a huge investment.

Shawne, I'm more disappointed in, but I'm pleased with this situation. I like that he could see that it probably wasn't going to work, and made the decision to move on. That's the opposite of what was done with Artest and Tinsley. In those cases, we kept investing in hopes that it would turn around.

In other words, I'm ok with mistakes from these guys if they acknowledge them and try to move forward, rather than trying to force things. (BTW...I think that's what happened with Ike, too.)

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:33 PM
Bird should not be held responsible for Shawne and Harrison being blown
picks.

It was those two players that made the choices that led to them being
blown.

Letting Shawne go is a step in the right direction...the guy is a lost cause.
It certainly showed on the court the other day at the colliseum.

Keep up the good work TPTB!!!
Bingo. All that matters is that he is gone, and we had a heck of a draft year. All things set aside, we are going in the right direction.

HC
10-10-2008, 03:35 PM
I am ecstatic, and concur with the rest of you in that hopefully the JT deal is coming soon. Has a franchise ever been just short of completely rebuilt as quickly as Pacers management has done this year? That isn't to say we are where we need to be, but the Pacers have certainly retooled.

MagicRat
10-10-2008, 03:35 PM
I like Rhondo better


I've never heard of Farmer or Rhondo.......:confused:

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Just shows how draft picks are sooooooo overrated on draft day

Young
10-10-2008, 03:36 PM
Well I hope this trade sets up a Jamaal trade.

I actually like what I am seeing so far from Bird since Donnie left.

I was hoping for Shawne to be a productive player but he really doesn't seem to have his head on straight.

Lord Helmet
10-10-2008, 03:39 PM
I like this, I'm glad he's out of here before he gets into worse trouble.

Hopefully Tinsley is out soon enough.

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:40 PM
what year are the picks, and does anyone remember what picks we lost in the James White trade (since we are talking about Bird mistakes)

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:41 PM
I am ecstatic, and concur with the rest of you in that hopefully the JT deal is coming soon. Has a franchise ever been just short of completely rebuilt as quickly as Pacers management has done this year? That isn't to say we are where we need to be, but the Pacers have certainly retooled.

I absolutely think this is a precursor to a JT move.

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 03:41 PM
what year are the picks, and does anyone remember what picks we lost in the James White trade (since we are talking about Bird mistakes)

Wasn't that the reason why we didn't have a second round pick this past draft???

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:44 PM
Details:

Eddie Jones is due to make 2 million this year AND

he turns 37 in 10 days.

Ya, good idea to waive him.

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:45 PM
Wasn't that the reason why we didn't have a second round pick this past draft???

We drafted Jawai this year and I think James White costs THREE 2nd round picks, if I remember correctly. I just can't remember which years.

Shade
10-10-2008, 03:45 PM
Eddie Jones has been finished for a couple of years now.

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 03:45 PM
Yeah, I think Eddie Jones (who I used to really like as a player) is pretty much through.

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:46 PM
EDDIE of Eddie and Kravitz KNEW something, he called this over the weekend on his blog???!?!?!?

http://www.1070thefan.com/kravitzandeddie/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10009899

10/4/08

....we had Peter Vecsey of the NY Post on our show on Thursday. That's when he first talked about Tinsley going to Denver. he also mentioned that Golden State and Miami were interested in JT. Then on Friday Vecsey put it in his NY Post column and then it all hit the fan. It was on radio, TV, in the papers and there were (of course) denials ALL over the place. Now it looks the deal will get done early this week. Just remember where u heard it first.

Right here on Kravitz and Eddie, 1070 The Fan. .....Peter is a always entertaining guest. Some people like him, some don't but he IS wired. the true original NBA insider.

Speaking of the Pacers now that they have Tinsley OUT of town. who's next? well of course, Shawne Williams. That seems to be the next guy OFF the roster. They are already overloaded on players on the roster. And we know Larry Bird is ON record as warning Shawne. Larry really really really likes Shawne as a player. Really does. But his off court antics have hurt the team. Coach O'Brien has had enough of Shawne.

Look for the Pacers, looking to make room and get numbers down, to dump Shawne to a west coast team for a couple of draft picks. They don't need players back. They gotta get rid of bodies. So dumping Shawne (who I think WILL become a very very good player in this league; he CAN play) for some 2nd round draft picks and some cash is the right thing to do. I know the Lakers and Mavs like Shawne. Would make sense for all concerned.

First preseason game is this week. I can't wait to see this NEW team. Buy a game program - we'll need it to know ALL the new guys!! Ha.
go pacers!

Anyway, I almost posted this, last weekend, but I thought what does Eddie (MY MAN) know about this stuff, I stand corrected. Props to Eddie White.

count55
10-10-2008, 03:46 PM
Wasn't that the reason why we didn't have a second round pick this past draft???

I think (but I'm not sure) that we had two 2nd rounders in this draft, our own, and one from Phoenix (for James Jones). In the White trade, we dealt Alexander Johnson (who was our 2006 2nd round pick), our 2007 2nd rounder, and (again, I think) the lower of the two picks we had in the 2008 2nd round, which turned out to be the Phoenix pick.

Portland got that pick, then we dealt our 2nd rounder (which turned into Nathan Jawai) to Toronto as part of the JO deal.

So, we're done with the White trade, but we still owe Miami our 2nd rounder next year from the Stanko trade.

(I think)

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:48 PM
Yeah, I think Eddie Jones (who I used to really like as a player) is pretty much through.
Yeah, he has seen his best years. I really thought he played magnificently with the Lakers and the Heat, but I really don't think that he could bring anything more to this team outside veteran leadership, which I feel is why we brought Austin back.

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 03:50 PM
How can the Pacers trade Shawne for Eddie Jones, cash, and 2-2nd round picks when Jones makes 2 mil and Williams makes 1.57 mil?

What am I missing?

count55
10-10-2008, 03:52 PM
How can the Pacers trade Shawne for Eddie Jones, cash, and 2-2nd round picks when Jones makes 2 mil and Williams makes 1.57 mil?

What am I missing?


Jones makes 1.970, while Shawne makes 1.570. You can trade for 125% of the player's salary plus 100k. So 1.570 *125% = 1.960 +0.100 = 2.060.

It works under the CBA.

Speed
10-10-2008, 03:56 PM
So even if you don't move JT, you can basically just cut Grahm and keep Austin and your at 15, right?

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 03:59 PM
So even if you don't move JT, you can basically just cut Grahm and keep Austin and your at 15, right?
TPTB gave Graham a contract, I highly doubt that we waive Graham at all.

Speed
10-10-2008, 04:06 PM
TPTB gave Graham a contract, I highly doubt that we waive Graham at all.

Well if you can't move JT, he's your second cheapest option beside McBob. You would have to waive someone. 16 players currently under contract.

edit, I take that back, if you want to keep Austin you have to waive someone.

Major Cold
10-10-2008, 04:08 PM
was Portlands 2007 second round selection McBob?

Hicks
10-10-2008, 04:12 PM
Well, we'll see Shawne again very soon. Dallas is coming to Conseco next Wednesday for a preseason game. :D

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 04:14 PM
Jones makes 1.970, while Shawne makes 1.570. You can trade for 125% of the player's salary plus 100k. So 1.570 *125% = 1.960 +0.100 = 2.060.

It works under the CBA.


I am aware of that, but how can Dallas add cash and 2 picks? How much cash is it?

Hicks
10-10-2008, 04:19 PM
The cash doesn't count towards the 125% check, I believe. It's "outside" of that.

Anthem
10-10-2008, 04:20 PM
I am aware of that, but how can Dallas add cash and 2 picks? How much cash is it?
Picks and cash don't change the salary balance of the trade. They're freebies.

Unclebuck
10-10-2008, 04:21 PM
is there a 4:30 press conference scheduled?????

diamonddave00
10-10-2008, 04:23 PM
Now Bird has acquired 1.8 mil and 2-2nd rounders to add as sweetners to Jamaal. Salary wash Williams/Jones. Both McRoberts and Graham are making under $900,000 waiving their salaries (either or both) is no big deal by NBA standards.

Look for the Nuggets rumors to reappear now that Bird has extra cash and picks to include - both things the Nuggets said were hangups to completing the trade.

CableKC
10-10-2008, 04:25 PM
Jones makes 1.970, while Shawne makes 1.570. You can trade for 125% of the player's salary plus 100k. So 1.570 *125% = 1.960 +0.100 = 2.060.

It works under the CBA.
count55, I'm not sure....and maybe I am stretching here....but for Eddie Jones contract.....was he signed under some Veteran Minimum contract and therefore does the league cover his contract in some way?

JayRedd
10-10-2008, 04:27 PM
I agree...I wouldn't be so quick to cut Eddie Jones. At worst, he's a vet backup at 3. At least let him battle it out with Graham.

I like Eddie Jones as much as the next guy, but he's cooked.

duke dynamite
10-10-2008, 04:27 PM
is there a 4:30 press conference scheduled?????
Hope so...

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 04:28 PM
Picks and cash don't change the salary balance of the trade. They're freebies.


Thanx! Interesting!

You can pay up to 3 mil for a draft pick, so how much cash can be added to a trade?

CableKC
10-10-2008, 04:30 PM
Now Bird has acquired 1.8 mil and 2-2nd rounders to add as sweetners to Jamaal. Salary wash Williams/Jones. Both McRoberts and Graham are making under $900,000 waiving their salaries (either or both) is no big deal by NBA standards.

Look for the Nuggets rumors to reappear now that Bird has extra cash and picks to include - both things the Nuggets said were hangups to completing the trade.
DD00, is the $1.8 mil in extra $$$ after Jones is waived?

I'm guessing that the usual preference is to get a 1st round draft pick...but given the Nuggets financial situation for the next 2 seasons......I'm guessing it's better to get 2nd round picks that does not have guaranteed Contracts as opposed to a 1st that does have one.

Oh well....here's hoping :pray:

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 04:30 PM
count55, I'm not sure....and maybe I am stretching here....but for Eddie Jones contract.....was he signed under some Veteran Minimum contract and therefore does the league cover his contract in some way?


That sounds right.

The same if the Pacers sign Cro.

Major Cold
10-10-2008, 04:34 PM
That sounds right.

The same if the Pacers sign Cro.
which means if we cut graham or McBob we lose nothing. Or gain anything.

Iceman1
10-10-2008, 04:41 PM
Kevin Lee has told the Eddie & Kravitz show on 1070 that there will be TWO announcements made at 5:30. No other info was given.

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 04:50 PM
which means if we cut graham or McBob we lose nothing. Or gain anything.


Who's going to pay their guaranteed contracts?

If Jones has a vet contract, the league pays a certain % of it. The team he's under contract to pays the rest.

If the Pacers cut Graham or McBob, the Pacers are on the hook for all of the salary... just like they were with James White when they cut him.

Oneal07
10-10-2008, 05:00 PM
If they are, brilliant move by Bird. Open up a roster spot, get money back in return to use for another trade. What an off-season...finish strong Larry!


Yup. . .Shawne will have tons of fun with Josh Howard lol

count55
10-10-2008, 05:08 PM
That sounds right.

The same if the Pacers sign Cro.

Eddie was making 1,976, so that's above the min (of 1,261).

To the poster who said that the NBA would pay a % of Eddie's contract, I don't believe that is true because my understanding is that is only for min contract players. (Or, a smartass would say that they'd pay 0%).

Justin Tyme
10-10-2008, 06:19 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. If the Pacers waive Eddie Jones, they are on the hook for his 1.9 mil salary. The 1.8 mil cash would then be used towards paying off his salary. In essence, Williams was traded for 2-2nd round picks. Correct?

If I'm correct, then the 1.8 mil isn't going to be used in a Tinsley deal with Denver, but the picks could be.

maragin
10-10-2008, 06:20 PM
I like Shawne and I wish him well in Dallas.

Though I would have liked to see him do well here, I think this is another good move by the front office to remake this team. I hope they are patient and take the best Tinsley offer when it becomes available.

arenn
10-10-2008, 06:24 PM
Good riddance.

Kamiyohk
10-10-2008, 06:53 PM
Shawne Williams gone, so It's time to play Brandon rush

El Pacero
10-10-2008, 07:03 PM
I never imagined we could trade Williams by himself, so this is great news to me. Bird trades better than he drafts.

Hicks
10-10-2008, 07:03 PM
The FSNI broadcast just started, and Quinn Buckner said they're going to take a look at Eddie Jones to see if he has anything left first. So that's good.

count55
10-10-2008, 07:06 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. If the Pacers waive Eddie Jones, they are on the hook for his 1.9 mil salary. The 1.8 mil cash would then be used towards paying off his salary. In essence, Williams was traded for 2-2nd round picks. Correct?

If I'm correct, then the 1.8 mil isn't going to be used in a Tinsley deal with Denver, but the picks could be.

Yup, that's true.

However...

Before the trade, the Pacers were going to have to pay out $1.6mm to Shawne Williams.

Now, they'll only have to reach into their pocket for about $0.2mm (2.0 - 1.8), instead of Shawne's $1.6m. So, you could still argue that this deal "frees up" $1.4mm to go towards paying Denver...

and it gives a coupla seconds.

aceace
10-10-2008, 07:39 PM
From the Pacers website....

Though there was initial speculation the Pacers would release Jones, who turns 37 later this month, both Bird and Coach Jim O'Brien said they intend to first see if the veteran swingman can help the team this season. Jones averaged 3.7 points in 47 games with the Mavs last season and is in the final year of a contract that reportedly pays him $2 million. A hamstring injury has limited his training camp participation and kept him out of the Mavs' preseason game Tuesday.

"He's a veteran guy who's been on a lot of winning teams," Bird said. "Hopefully we can get him in and get his injury squared away and get him in camp."

O'Brien said releasing Jones was "not my intention."

"My intention," O'Brien said, "is to get him in here and see if we can fit him into things, see where he is."

Jones has until 5:30 p.m. Sunday to report.

GrangerRanger
10-10-2008, 08:07 PM
According to this link: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/eddie-jones-may-yet-have-a-maverick-futu.html


The Mavericks, by the way, are paying Jones' $1.9 million salary for the season as part of the trade.

We're not even paying him his salary this season.

LG33
10-10-2008, 08:50 PM
These second rounders are probably going to be real low, right?

t1hs0n
10-10-2008, 09:00 PM
According to this link: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/eddie-jones-may-yet-have-a-maverick-futu.html



We're not even paying him his salary this season.



That is probably what the cash considerations are for, no?

NapTonius Monk
10-10-2008, 09:12 PM
Draftwise, Larry has an eye for talent. He didn't really miss on Shawne from a talent standpoint. He just never made the necessary personal adjustments to succeed here. I'm glad we took Shawne over Marcus Williams. He hasn't panned out at all. As far as Rajon Rhondo, keep in mind that a lot of players would look much better when playing alongside a trio (or at least dual) HOF's. I like his speed and his defense, but he has flaws in his game as well.

!Pacers-Fan!
10-10-2008, 09:52 PM
Eddie is like a grandfather...tho...wat ever...

MillerTime
10-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Bye BYe Shawne. This guys could have been an amazing talent. With his frame and athletic ability...but he needed to get his mind into the game

denyfizle
10-10-2008, 10:48 PM
wow I can't wet to get me an Eddie Jones Pacer jersey :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::sarcasm:

MillerTime
10-10-2008, 10:54 PM
Rush is an Eddie Jones type of player. Maybe Eddie can teach him a thing or 2

Ramitt
10-10-2008, 11:04 PM
Interesting. I was never as down on Shawne as many, but I am glad the Pacers are shaking things up, hopefully this does lead to a Tinsely trade, otherwise it is very meh.

croz24
10-10-2008, 11:23 PM
good trade. wish it would have taken place pre-draft though.

Anthem
10-10-2008, 11:42 PM
Rush is an Eddie Jones type of player. Maybe Eddie can teach him a thing or 2
I wondered the same thing.

Several people have said that Eddie might be the guy closest to Brandon's game. I'd take him as a 15th man and hope he rubs off on Rush.

Pacers
10-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Wouldn't the Nuggets have rather had Shawne than 2 2nd rounders?

Major Cold
10-11-2008, 12:10 AM
Wouldn't the Nuggets have rather had Shawne than 2 2nd rounders?
Kleiza is a FA and the end of the season. Smith is their top scorer off of the bench. They just don't need him. But nether did dallas for now. They need youth and Shawne is immature. that and 2 2nd rounders are not guaranteed salaries.

count55
10-11-2008, 12:12 AM
Wouldn't the Nuggets have rather had Shawne than 2 2nd rounders?

You don't have to pay 2nd rounders this season...and they're over the tax.

able
10-11-2008, 01:41 AM
in case anyone wanted my opinion: crap


time to trade legendboy

MillerTime
10-11-2008, 05:20 AM
We can use these picks to sweeten the Tinsley deal. As for Eddie Jones, we should give him a shot before just waiving him. See if he has anything left, and if he can contribute to this team. He would fit nice into JOBs system. Who knows, he might pan out how Armstrong did for us; an vetern near the end of his career

Unclebuck
10-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Are the Mavs paying Edddie's contract in addtion to the 1.8 M in cash they are sending our way - or - is the cash to be essentially used to pay Jones

Tom White
10-11-2008, 09:39 AM
According to this link: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/eddie-jones-may-yet-have-a-maverick-futu.html



We're not even paying him his salary this season.

Thus the cash part of the deal.

Tom White
10-11-2008, 09:41 AM
wow I can't wet to get me an Eddie Jones Pacer jersey :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::sarcasm:

Uhhhh.............oh, there are so many things that could be said.....I just can't choose which one.
:laugh:

Kuq_e_Zi91
10-11-2008, 09:48 AM
Are the Mavs paying Edddie's contract in addtion to the 1.8 M in cash they are sending our way - or - is the cash to be essentially used to pay Jones

I was confused about this too. I was wondering if they would send cash and pay his salary, or if the cash was considered as them paying his salary.


The Dallas Mavericks announced today that they acquired forward Shawne Williams from the Indiana Pacers in exchange for guard Eddie Jones and two future second-round draft picks.

It doesn't mention the 1.8 M so I'm guessing that cash would be them paying the salary, not in addition to it.

http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/shawne-williams-deal-is-official.html

Peck
10-11-2008, 09:51 AM
This is probably best for everyone involved. Shawne, for lack of a better word, looked dissinterested the other night.

I know it's hard to judge that on the floor but he just didn't look like he had any enthusiasm about playing.

Sadly, he is a talented player and somewhere down the road if he becomes a good player this trade is going to suck from a basketball standpoint. But I just don't think he was going to get anywhere here. Partially due to his off court issues but frankly under this coach I just don't see him fitting in.

From a pure basketball standpoint though, this trade is horrible. Jones is so far beyond gone that really I hope he doesn't report. Second round picks are pure fodder and sorry I don't care about cash.

But in this case I understand. This wasn't about basketball, this was about a much bigger picture.

However I do want to congratulate Bird & Morraway. They have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will pull the trigger when they think they need to. This is such a change, IMO very refreshing change, from what we have had over the past couple of decades.

Smoothdave1
10-11-2008, 10:47 AM
I was a little surprised the deal went down, but look at a few things:

1. Pacers basically traded Shawne for 2 2nd rounders and 1.4 million dollars. (Jones makes 2 mil this year and Shawne about 1.6m). Pacers are still responsible for paying Jones and the difference between his cap hit and Jones was offset by the 1.8 million (2 mil-1.6m=400k ; 1.8 m-400k=1.4m).

2. The 2nd rounders could become trade fodder (possibly in a Tinsley deal) or the Pacers may keep one or both. We're scheduled to get the Mav's 2009 and either 2010 or 2011 2nd round picks. But hey, these picks could give the Pacers some warm bodies at the end of the bench and maybe we'll finally utilize Ft. Wayne and the D-League?

3. I wasn't so sure that Bird would have picked up Williams' option next season. Given what's occurred in the past year or so, I could have seen the Pacers let Williams walk. Therefore, the "get something for him while we can and he has value" took effect. Shawne is a guy who could become a pretty solid player or a guy who may be out of the league in a year or two. I hope he does well, for his sake.

4. Shawne knew his days in Indy were limited, at best. He put his house near Keystone at the Crossing up for sale earlier this year and I believe was waiting for the Pacers to pull the trigger or release him.

5. As far as Eddie Jones, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't report. However, he has always been a professional, so I think he will report. My guess is that he may play a game or two for the Blue and Gold and will be cut. He'll stay on the sidelines and may sign with a Boston or LA in hopes of winning a ring.

6. As far as what's next, the Pacers do have a few options. Obviously we're set at 1-5. I also almost wonder if Bird and Austin have a handshake deal so much that if the Pacers cannot trade Tinsley in the next few weeks, that Austin will sign with the Pacers once a deal for Tinsley has been done. Thus, the Pacers wouldn't have to cut someone so much that they could wait until a deal with Tinsley occurred and see who was coming in, etc. and then make a deal with Austin.

Tom White
10-11-2008, 10:58 AM
This is probably best for everyone involved. Shawne, for lack of a better word, looked dissinterested the other night.

I know it's hard to judge that on the floor but he just didn't look like he had any enthusiasm about playing.

Sadly, he is a talented player and somewhere down the road if he becomes a good player this trade is going to suck from a basketball standpoint. But I just don't think he was going to get anywhere here. Partially due to his off court issues but frankly under this coach I just don't see him fitting in.

From a pure basketball standpoint though, this trade is horrible. Jones is so far beyond gone that really I hope he doesn't report. Second round picks are pure fodder and sorry I don't care about cash.

But in this case I understand. This wasn't about basketball, this was about a much bigger picture.

However I do want to congratulate Bird & Morraway. They have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will pull the trigger when they think they need to. This is such a change, IMO very refreshing change, from what we have had over the past couple of decades.

From what I heard on the radio yesterday, Wlliams (and his agent) wanted the Pacers to go ahead and sign him to a contract extension. After thinking about it, the Pacers declined.

You can't blame the Pacers at all. They obviously wanted to see something out of him (on the court, and off) before making a future investment in him.

I think they probably decided that Williams simply wasn't even close to "getting it" on or off the court. In that case, it is better to cut ties than to make yet another mistake by committing the team to him longer term. They've been there/done that before.

dohman
10-11-2008, 12:05 PM
I think we could of kept on to him a little bit longer. He does have upside. Send him to the D league for a year and make him put some muscle on that small frame.

If we would of traded our draft spot for 2 second rounders and eddie jones people would be wanting to torch bird right now.

Hicks
10-11-2008, 12:12 PM
Because we don't know how that draft spot would pan out in Indiana. The writting was starting to be on the wall with Shawne.

Pacers
10-11-2008, 12:21 PM
The writing has been on the wall for Shawne for awhile. It's just now people have found the wall.

imawhat
10-11-2008, 12:37 PM
In my opinion, Shawne was clearly "gone" after the summer arrest, and most certainly after his poor summer league.


I think it's a good trade, only because I believe he would've been cut by the end of the preseason. I'm disappointed because he's probably my favorite Pacer, but he was never going to make it here.

Now we have all the extras to complete the Tinsley trade if what we've heard is true (unless they ask for more now).

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2008, 01:56 PM
This is probably best for everyone involved. Shawne, for lack of a better word, looked dissinterested the other night.

I know it's hard to judge that on the floor but he just didn't look like he had any enthusiasm about playing.

Sadly, he is a talented player and somewhere down the road if he becomes a good player this trade is going to suck from a basketball standpoint. But I just don't think he was going to get anywhere here. Partially due to his off court issues but frankly under this coach I just don't see him fitting in.

From a pure basketball standpoint though, this trade is horrible. Jones is so far beyond gone that really I hope he doesn't report. Second round picks are pure fodder and sorry I don't care about cash.

But in this case I understand. This wasn't about basketball, this was about a much bigger picture.

However I do want to congratulate Bird & Morraway. They have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will pull the trigger when they think they need to. This is such a change, IMO very refreshing change, from what we have had over the past couple of decades.
Don't you think that possibly had something to do with the message toward him from Bird, as in "you're done here as soon as possible". The rumors on him being traded have been flying all summer and he had to know that there was some amount of truth behind them.

However this doesn't discount your comment, in that if he was to be treated this way then you need to move him. No point in keeping someone you don't want for whatever reason.

I think the PR thing was some level of issue but let's be fair here. All teams have 1 or 2 younger players with issues. Heck some of them are vets. The problems are typically found when you have a full culture of it or the key problems are also your top stars.

Somehow the team is going forward with Marquis who has been square in the middle of the two worst situations and is paid much more, not to mention being closer to peaked out on what he'll offer.

I have to think that with Tinsley off the roster and so much other change, including the addition of guys like Rush, Hibbert and Ford, not to mention the "star focus" being on good guy types Granger and Dunleavy, this would be exactly the kind of spot a player like Shawne could mature into a better person (well, let's say more responsible and mature) and player.

You didn't need Shawne out to keep the team on the straight and narrow. He wasn't a big enough problem nor a big enough contributor to "have to" get rid of him. Bird's played this like there was no option, but there was.

I'm not anti what Bird has tried to do but at the same time I would warn people that this still has the scent of Bird's main issue and that is stubbornly forcing things along rather than massaging a situation to get the most out of it.


Honestly doesn't this suggest a stronger committment to Dunleavy more than anything? This is saying Danny and Mike play SF while Rush comes along at the SG, Mike being the starting SG.

count55
10-11-2008, 02:02 PM
Somehow the team is going forward with Marquis who has been square in the middle of the two worst situations and is paid much more, not to mention being closer to peaked out on what he'll offer.

And thus, far less tradeable. Part of the reason that it was Shawne to go is because he had more takers, and the Pacers wouldn't have had to take back $5,6,or 7mm in salaries to deal him.

rexnom
10-11-2008, 02:03 PM
I liked this move as soon as I saw "Shawne Williams traded..." and I realized we weren't getting any long-term contracts back.

The reason is that it clearly shows that Bird has a plan. This move was a "Zach Randolph for Channing Frye and filler" type of move. Bird has become IMO one of few NBA GMs with singular vision, plan and direction for his team. If he fails, he fails, but at least he has a model in mind and he's executing the plan which leads to molding the team according to that (his) model.

And thus, far less tradeable. Part of the reason that it was Shawne to go is because he had more takers, and the Pacers wouldn't have had to take back $5,6,or 7mm in salaries to deal him.
Agree. I think this reinforces what I said in the other thread - Quis has great value as an expiring for us. We're gonna be rid of Quis shortly anyways. We don't really need to trade him. Hopefully by that time, Rush is ready to step in as our primary backup 2.

Doddage
10-11-2008, 03:23 PM
Agree. I think this reinforces what I said in the other thread - Quis has great value as an expiring for us. We're gonna be rid of Quis shortly anyways. We don't really need to trade him. Hopefully by that time, Rush is ready to be our starter.
Fixed.

Mourning
10-11-2008, 03:40 PM
I wondered the same thing.

Several people have said that Eddie might be the guy closest to Brandon's game. I'd take him as a 15th man and hope he rubs off on Rush.

I would, to be very honest, rather have Eddie Jones as the experienced veteran who hardly gets playing time and helps the young players compared to Croshere.

Anthem
10-11-2008, 03:46 PM
I would, to be very honest, rather have Eddie Jones as the experienced veteran who hardly gets playing time and helps the young players compared to Croshere.
Yep.

BlueNGold
10-11-2008, 04:02 PM
Yes, I like Cro...but Eddie would be better to have around. He may be able to help Brush.

We already have Foster, Baston, Murphy and McBob to play that position. Cro is not an upgrade over most of those guys.

Will Galen
10-11-2008, 04:08 PM
in case anyone wanted my opinion: crap


time to trade legendboy

Hey an Able sighting! I was wondering what happened to you. I thought you had changed your name. I was wondering the other day what you thought of the Pacers direction. I know you like/d JO and Tins. I guess your post answers that.

speakout4
10-11-2008, 04:19 PM
For what it's worth I am not happy about trading Williams for not much in return long term. Once we get Tinsley moved this team will have only two returning first rounders that they actually drafted themselves. What does it say when Williams, Harrison, Jones, Harrington, Tinsley are traded or not resigned. Perhaps this is routine but we have to question how well we are drafting.

BlueNGold
10-11-2008, 04:45 PM
For what it's worth I am not happy about trading Williams for not much in return long term. Once we get Tinsley moved this team will have only two returning first rounders that they actually drafted themselves. What does it say when Williams, Harrison, Jones, Harrington, Tinsley are traded or not resigned. Perhaps this is routine but we have to question how well we are drafting.

The only reason those players are no longer on the team...or soon to be gone hopefully...is the off court issues. Harrington was attached to this with the Jackson trade. Tinsley, Williams and Harrison have all had behaviour problems. So, the point is, the Pacers have not done badly picking up talent. I think Shawne Williams was a pretty good pick at 17. Tinsley was a good pick (don't tell anyone I said that). Harrison at #30 was a decent pick. At least he still has a job in the league.

But supporting your point, yes, they have picked up some morons...

clownskull
10-11-2008, 04:49 PM
i was never all that big a fan of shawne williams. and i really don't think we were going to get as much for him as some seem to think. besides we need room and if it means getting rid of him to do it- great!
all we really need to do now is get rid of tinsley and we are doing pretty damn good in my book.
this was about making room and i really don't see shawne turning out to be much anyway so its like goodbye dude- so long and i really don't care what you do.
enough of him- he's now history. he had chances and blew it. harrison gone and now him. tins is next. those guys all had their chances and blew it.

ChicagoJ
10-11-2008, 05:57 PM
First of all, I can't believe how bad we fleeced the Mavericks on this trade. We got something - maybe not much, but something - in exchange for a guy that probably wasn't going to dress for many games for us.

Second of all, when you look at that particular draft, it was really only 10 players deep. Yes, it was a big stretch to take Williams *that* early at 17. If we really thought somebody was trading up to draft him (which I think is a bogus rumor), then we should have been the team to trade down a few spots - just as we did this year.

Yes, a case could be made for one of the PGs taken in the 20s, but I don't think any of them are better than Jack and Ford.

Or Mardy Collins, who will never set the world on fire, but will likely have a much longer NBA career than many of the other players drafted around him because his downside risk wasn't very low even though his upside potential wasn't very high. But really, the problem wasn't drafting Shawne per se, but rather to not trade out of that first round to avoid getting stuck with a guaranteed contract.

Major Cold
10-11-2008, 07:14 PM
For what it's worth I am not happy about trading Williams for not much in return long term. Once we get Tinsley moved this team will have only two returning first rounders that they actually drafted themselves. What does it say when Williams, Harrison, Jones, Harrington, Tinsley are traded or not resigned. Perhaps this is routine but we have to question how well we are drafting.


You know when was at the pacer-bulls game I noticed the bulls had
Rose- 1st pick 2008
Hinrich- 7th pick 2003
Deng-7th pick 2004
Thomas-4th pick 2006
Hughes- 8th pick in the 1998
Thabo Sefolosha- 13th pick 2006
Ben Gordon- 3rd pick 2004
Drew Gooden- 4th pick 2002
Joakim Noah-9th pick 2007
Cedric Simmons-15th pick in 2006

Average pick=7.1

we had

TJ- 8th pick in 2003
Rush- 13th pick in 2008
Dunleavy-3rd in 2002
Eddie Jones-10th pick in 1994
Troy Murphy-14th pick in 2001
Austin Croshere- 12th pick 1997
Jeff Foster- 21st pick 1998
Danny Granger 17 pick in 2005
Rasho- 17tth pick in 1998
Roy Hibbert- 17th pick in 2008

Average pick=13.2

Having a better lottery player is not a guarantee you will win in this league. Drafting is important. But what is more important is getting quality players. That can come many ways.

count55
10-11-2008, 07:31 PM
Having a better lottery player is not a guarantee you will win in this league. Drafting is important. But what is more important is getting quality players. That can come many ways.

Nein! Dieses ist nicht die zutreffende Weise! Oberseite 5 Auswahl ist der einzige Weg zur absoluten Vorherrschaft! Abweichung von diesem wird nicht angenommen! Unglšubiger brennen!

Du bist auf der Liste.

rexnom
10-11-2008, 07:38 PM
Nein! Dieses ist nicht die zutreffende Weise! Oberseite 5 Auswahl ist der einzige Weg zur absoluten Vorherrschaft! Abweichung von diesem wird nicht angenommen! Unglšubiger brennen!

Du bist auf der Liste.
I hope Croz speaks German - he'd be thrilled.

McKeyFan
10-11-2008, 07:51 PM
You know when was at the pacer-bulls game I noticed the bulls had
Rose- 1st pick 2008
Hinrich- 7th pick 2003
Deng-7th pick 2004
Thomas-4th pick 2006
Hughes- 8th pick in the 1998
Thabo Sefolosha- 13th pick 2006
Ben Gordon- 3rd pick 2004
Drew Gooden- 4th pick 2002
Joakim Noah-9th pick 2007
Cedric Simmons-15th pick in 2006

Average pick=7.1

we had

TJ- 8th pick in 2003
Rush- 13th pick in 2008
Dunleavy-3rd in 2002
Eddie Jones-10th pick in 1994
Troy Murphy-14th pick in 2001
Austin Croshere- 12th pick 1997
Jeff Foster- 21st pick 1998
Danny Granger 17 pick in 2005
Rasho- 17tth pick in 1998
Roy Hibbert- 17th pick in 2008

Average pick=13.2

Having a better lottery player is not a guarantee you will win in this league. Drafting is important. But what is more important is getting quality players. That can come many ways.

Very enlightening.

(Where's Jack? And I think you could leave Eddie Jones out.)

Anthem
10-11-2008, 07:54 PM
I hope Croz speaks German
Or can find a translator (http://translate.google.com/translate_t#de|en|Nein!%20Dieses%20ist%20nicht%20d ie%20zutreffende%20Weise!%20Oberseite%205%20Auswah l%20ist%20der%20einzige%20Weg%20zur%20absoluten%20 Vorherrschaft!%20Abweichung%20von%20diesem%20wird% 20nicht%20angenommen!%20Ungl%C3%A4ubiger%20brennen !%0A%0ADu%20bist%20auf%20der%20Liste.).

eldubious
10-11-2008, 09:26 PM
I like Rhondo better

I said the Pacers needed a PG back then too, they had their choice between Marcus Williams, Rajon Rondo, and Jordan Farmar. I thought Rondo was the perfect piece to the puzzle, too bad the TPTB didn't think so.

BoomBaby31
10-11-2008, 09:42 PM
Amen.. now on with tinsley.

BlueNGold
10-11-2008, 09:55 PM
Ich bin frohes Shawne Williams werde gegangen und ich kann nicht warten, bis Tinsley aus Stadt heraus ist.
Me alegro de Shawne Williams se ha ido y no puedo esperar hasta que Tinsley estŠ fuera de la ciudad.
我很高兴威廉姆斯Shawne了,我不能等到汀斯利是出城。

McKeyFan
10-11-2008, 10:41 PM
I think this trade proves that where there's smoke, there's fire.

Bird knows a whole lot more about Shawne's personal life and decisions than we do. And Bird is done with him.

It must not be pretty. And that's just sad. What a waste.

BlueNGold
10-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I think this trade proves that where there's smoke, there's fire.

Bird knows a whole lot more about Shawne's personal life and decisions than we do. And Bird is done with him.

It must not be pretty. And that's just sad. What a waste.

Just wish Shawne luck and say goodbye. Just another sign the Pacers have learned to make the right moves, even when it's a little painful.

Bottom line? He's not worth the risk. He's got some potential, but he is a long way from showing that he is a legit starter and even longer way from showing that he is as good as Granger. There's a distinct possibility he shows up in the papers again...but fortunately that will not be in Indy. Harrison? check. Williams? check. Tinsley???

rm1369
10-11-2008, 11:44 PM
I'm kind of amazed that many people are happy that Bird is willing to let go of his mistakes, but there seems to be far fewer people upset that, so far, all of Birds moves seem to be mistakes. His record in the draft is Clipperesque. It's depressing to be a fan of a team that's decisions you consistantly disagree with. I can't hardly think of a move this team has made since Bird arrived that I actually agreed with. IMO nearly every move has eroded the talent level - just a little - to the point that they have one of the least talented rosters in the league.

I didn't want Shawne Williams when they drafted him. I don't particullarly care that he's gone now except for the fact this team consistantly finds ways to devalue there precious few assets. Shawne Willaims, JO, James White, Harrington, SJax, and even Artest were all devalued assets in some way when they left the team.

Everyone is very high on Hibbert and Rush now, but don't be suprised when Bird is moving them for a mediocre roll player and / or some second round draft picks 18 - 30 months from now.

Roaming Gnome
10-12-2008, 01:07 AM
I'm kind of amazed that many people are happy that Bird is willing to let go of his mistakes, but there seems to be far fewer people upset that, so far, all of Birds moves seem to be mistakes. His record in the draft is Clipperesque. It's depressing to be a fan of a team that's decisions you consistantly disagree with. I can't hardly think of a move this team has made since Bird arrived that I actually agreed with. IMO nearly every move has eroded the talent level - just a little - to the point that they have one of the least talented rosters in the league.

I didn't want Shawne Williams when they drafted him. I don't particullarly care that he's gone now except for the fact this team consistantly finds ways to devalue there precious few assets. Shawne Willaims, JO, James White, Harrington, SJax, and even Artest were all devalued assets in some way when they left the team.

Everyone is very high on Hibbert and Rush now, but don't be suprised when Bird is moving them for a mediocre roll player and / or some second round draft picks 18 - 30 months from now.


Is it possible they devalued themselves? I was going to do a laundry list of all the players you listed, but why bother.

grace
10-12-2008, 02:00 AM
I'm kind of amazed that many people are happy that Bird is willing to let go of his mistakes, but there seems to be far fewer people upset that, so far, all of Birds moves seem to be mistakes. His record in the draft is Clipperesque.

Speaking as probably the biggest Bird disliker on the board I wouldn't call it Clipperesque. Not even close.

CableKC
10-12-2008, 02:23 AM
Speaking as probably the biggest Bird disliker on the board I wouldn't call it Clipperesque. Not even close.
At least in regard to Shawne....I have to agree. When it comes to drafting Shawne, you have to look at where we were as a Franchise in the 2006 draft. We were coming off of a season where we were ( like always ) considered a perennial Playoff Contender. We weren't even in rebuilding mode.....we were in a position where we could have easily taken a player with potential rather then taken a "safe pick". Bird ( if he really was the one that decided to pick Shawne....which in all honesty....can be considered a Walsh pick ) was willing to roll the dice on a player with potential. On top of that....despite the Artest incident....we weren't even in the position where we had to seriously consider any potential for offcourt issues.

Hicks
10-12-2008, 08:03 AM
Shawne Willaims, JO, James White, Harrington, SJax, and even Artest were all devalued assets in some way when they left the team.

Issues, time to go and it was a good trade IMO, attitude, part of SJax trade, issues, and a whole hell of al ot of issues. I think the JO trade was good, but there's a reason the rest of those trades lowered our talent.

CableKC, I have 0 doubt Shawne Williams was Bird's pick, not Walsh's. Bird has pretty much had final say on the draft since David Harrison.

bellisimo
10-12-2008, 09:37 AM
I've always liked Shawne's b-ball skills...his shot looks smoother than Danny's...even thought that maybe he would overtake Danny's position in the team...shame about all the off-court incidents that disrupted that from happening...should be interesting to see how he performs in Dallas

CableKC
10-12-2008, 12:39 PM
A few things from Mike Wells Blog on the trade:

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/archives/2008/10/shipping_them_o.html


It's going to be interesting to see how the Eddie Jones situation plays out.

Jones told the Dallas Morning News back in February that he had no interest in going to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd deal because he didn't want to be traded to a non-championship contender.

"There is no next stop for me," Jones told the Morning News in February. "I'll go home."

As everybody knows, the Pacers are not championship contenders.

The Pacers could just cut Jones since the Mavericks are basically paying his $1.9 million salary this season.
It sounds like Bird is going to play by the books and try to convince Jones to stay. Oddly enough, the one player that many of us here have compared BRush to is a younger version of Eddie Jones. It would be nice to have a veteran like Jones mentor BRush....but it sounds like Jones wants to go to a contender....or more specifically....not stick it out with us.

Kuq_e_Zi91
10-12-2008, 12:55 PM
Yeah, this is why I voted to cut him in the prediction thread. If he doesn't want to be here, we can't force him. It would be perfect to have him around as a mentor but if he's not with it, then it makes it a no-brainer to cut him. I think we can agree Josh Davis is cut. So that only leaves it to one.

rm1369
10-12-2008, 12:58 PM
Issues, time to go and it was a good trade IMO, attitude, part of SJax trade, issues, and a whole hell of al ot of issues. I think the JO trade was good, but there's a reason the rest of those trades lowered our talent.

CableKC, I have 0 doubt Shawne Williams was Bird's pick, not Walsh's. Bird has pretty much had final say on the draft since David Harrison.

* Williams - We didn't have a need at SF. We had a need at PG and there were several available. The team was already known to have attitude / character / chemistry concerns and those were noted (although minor) concerns with Williams during the draft. How ever you want to cut it we lost on this whole transaction and it isn't just hindsight - it was a wasted pick when it was made.

* JO - They got decent value for the JO they traded him. The problem is that nearly everyone knew JO's time here was coming to an end a few years ago, but they held on to him until his contract had more value than he did. Again, not hindsight - many on here and around the league thought he should have been traded 2-3 years ago.

* Artest - I don't have a problem with them gambling and keeping him initially. My problem was that when they did trade him they did it for an older player on an expiring contract. One that played the same position as our only young asset - DG. What was going to happen here? Either you overpay or you let him walk. IMO the problem was they were so desperate to make the playoffs (as usuall) that they went with the short term fix, instead of waiting for Magette to heal. They essentially turned Artest and a lottery pick into Murphy and his horrible contract. That is horrible value no matter how you look at it.

I'll address the others later - the Colts game is coming on.

McKeyFan
10-12-2008, 01:19 PM
I've always liked Shawne's b-ball skills...his shot looks smoother than Danny's...even thought that maybe he would overtake Danny's position in the team...shame about all the off-court incidents that disrupted that from happening...should be interesting to see how he performs in Dallas

I hear ya. Thought the same thing at times.

However, the forces of character that brought about the off-court incidents are the same forces of character that caused Shawne to remain mediocre each season and offseason and caused Danny to slowly, continually improve.

Quis
10-12-2008, 01:55 PM
Two 2nd round picks and $1.8M is the equivalence of a late 1st round pick, so it's a fine trade. Shawne may have skill and physical gifts but he's a mental midget with an apparent poor work ethic. Good riddance.

Naptown_Seth
10-12-2008, 03:07 PM
And thus, far less tradeable. Part of the reason that it was Shawne to go is because he had more takers, and the Pacers wouldn't have had to take back $5,6,or 7mm in salaries to deal him.
Count, I wasn't making the point about tradability with my statement. My angle was that the idea that Shawne's attitude was more weight than the team could bear, and therefore warranted a trade at any cost was incorrect.

Shawne was a minor inconvenience even with his 20 year old decisions. He was now surrounded by guys that wouldn't let his crap go for 2 seconds and had a ton of upside.

If Jones isn't part of the team then this trade is just foolish. I know he might not have played, but he COULD have worked his way back into good graces.

You look at risk/cost vs reward on him and it's not even close. #4 not playing at all and getting in 3 gangland shootings falls about even compared to the risk you were taking with him. You cut him outright on the next incident and it's about 5% worse than having those 2 second round picks. Jones and cash to pay Jones is meaningless if he's not on the team.

Say Danny goes down and Shawne steps in with 38% from deep, ,4-5 rebounds a game in 22 mpg and it's a homerun to ride him out.


Tinsley I get. Moving JO I got. The Portland deal made perfect sense. This one just reeks of desperate to prove a PR point that's already been made with Tinsley DNP'd for the rest of his Pacers career, no matter how long it takes.

Pacers
10-12-2008, 03:29 PM
Two 2nd round picks and $1.8M is the equivalence of a late 1st round pick, so it's a fine trade. Shawne may have skill and physical gifts but he's a mental midget with an apparent poor work ethic. Good riddance.


Especially to a team against the cap who can't/wouldn't pay a last 1st. Remember that New Orleans sold their 1st rounder back in June.

Justin Tyme
10-12-2008, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;789745]


Shawne was a minor inconvenience even with his 20 year old decisions. /QUOTE]

When Williams had his last incident, I said then the Pacers couldn't afford another PR problem from him. I stated then the Pacers needed to unload him ASAP. The last thing the Pacers needed was a PR problem after the strong effort they have put into trying to change the image of the Pacers. One incident from Williams would be all it takes to ruin what the Pacers are striving to do PR wise.

Do you know for a fact Williams even gave up his "group" of friends in order to change? Has he even made an effort to change? Did he come to camp with a different outlook, a positive one? Maybe Bird knows something we don't and made the decision based on what he knows.

"IF" the Pacers can use what they got from Dallas for Williams to sweeten the deal to rid themselves of Tinsley that in itself makes the Williams deal worth while! If not, they have 2 second rounders to use in trades or draft another Euro player or 2.

The only way this deal looks bad is if William changes and becomes something of a ball player. Personally, I don't believe he can do it.

I give Bird the benefit of the doubt on this move, and I seldom cut Bird any slack! JMOAA

speakout4
10-12-2008, 04:21 PM
I know everyone has said it before but Shawne would still be a college senior this year. Giving him one more year is not any different than giving Harrison his full allotted contrcact time with the difference that Shawne was a 17 pick and Harrison a 30 pick. With Tinsley gone no one could say anything about team members behaving badly if he were bounced the next time.

Now if this is how we get rid of Tinsley then I would agree with the move but if this doesn't lead to Tinsley's leaving then this move isn't as smart as some think. Making room for Cro, Grahame, or any of the other marginal players doesn't seem justified.

imawhat
10-12-2008, 05:36 PM
Count, I wasn't making the point about tradability with my statement. My angle was that the idea that Shawne's attitude was more weight than the team could bear, and therefore warranted a trade at any cost was incorrect.

Shawne was a minor inconvenience even with his 20 year old decisions. He was now surrounded by guys that wouldn't let his crap go for 2 seconds and had a ton of upside.

I would agree with you if this was the '98 Pacers, but it's not.

Shawne (unfortunately) is not a minor inconvenience on a team that is trying to completely rid itself of distractions. Larry was NOT going to re-sign him and thought this would negatively affect Shawne's season.

-As much as I love Shawne as a basketball player, he DEFINTELY had it coming. He'd verbally committed to making better decisions and promised to eliminate people from his life, which he clearly hadn't done.

-Larry publicly stated he'd "had enough" before the last incident. If Bird hadn't done anything by the beginning of the regular season, it would've set a very poor example for our team. I think it's a lot more about discipline than PR.

-Also, it sounds to me like Shawne has been targeted by the Carmel police, so the probability of "something" happening, whether or not it's his fault, is really high.

-On top of everything else, I've seen how people have reacted to him, even on this board, when he's had anything but a perfect game. He's been a lost cause in the (Indianapolis) public eye for some time, and that wasn't going to change.

penbert66
10-13-2008, 08:04 AM
I don't care one way or another about Shawne being traded, mainly becasue of the off court problems. But why is it that Marquis Daniels skates by on all his off-court stuff? Wasn't he involved with the Jackson shooting and the Tinsley fight?

Putnam
10-13-2008, 08:52 AM
I don't care one way or another about Shawne being traded, mainly becasue of the off court problems. But why is it that Marquis Daniels skates by on all his off-court stuff? Wasn't he involved with the Jackson shooting and the Tinsley fight?


Yes Daniels was at Club Rio and 8 Seconds. And yes, he does seem to be getting a different treatment from TPTB that Williams or Tinsley. We have to suppose that he's doing something the other two guys aren't to deserve his spot on the roster.

Perhaps Tinsley and Williams, in addition to their off-court misdeeds, never showed the right stuff in practices. We don't hear much about what happens in the locker room or during practices and drills, but nothing is more important to the team. Maybe their attitude about the police incidents was irresponsible, while Daniels was really sorry.

I don't know the reason, but there has to be a reason he's not been openly criticized (and openly shopped) as the others have been. I'm willing to believe Daniels is doing something right.

Peck
10-13-2008, 08:58 AM
Yes Daniels was at Club Rio and 8 Seconds. And yes, he does seem to be getting a different treatment from TPTB that Williams or Tinsley. We have to suppose that he's doing something the other two guys aren't to deserve his spot on the roster.

Perhaps Tinsley and Williams, in addition to their off-court misdeeds, never showed the right stuff in practices. We don't hear much about what happens in the locker room or during practices and drills, but nothing is more important to the team. Maybe their attitude about the police incidents was irresponsible, while Daniels was really sorry.

I don't know the reason, but there has to be a reason he's not been openly criticized (and openly shopped) as the others have been. I'm willing to believe Daniels is doing something right.


In addition to what you have typed I would also add that maybe Daniels was more contrite & repentant that Tinsley.

While Shawne may very well have been contrite and repentant he also proved that he did not back up his words and feelings with deeds. Oversleeping his court date was not smart and continuing to hang with questionable people probably sealed the deal.

However I believe your opinion on this is also correct.

McKeyFan
10-13-2008, 09:03 AM
Wasn't Quis just sort of "there" at both events?

I don't like that he was there, nor do I care for the company he was keeping, but I don't think he really instigated anything. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Secondly, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Perhaps Quis is a hard worker off the court and the others aren't. Perhaps he has a good, teachable attitude in practice and the other two simply have an attitude. We don't know. But I give some leeway to TPTB regarding all this, because they have more info than we do.

MillerTime
10-13-2008, 09:05 AM
In addition to what you have typed I would also add that maybe Daniels was more contrite & repentant that Tinsley.

While Shawne may very well have been contrite and repentant he also proved that he did not back up his words and feelings with deeds. Oversleeping his court date was not smart and continuing to hang with questionable people probably sealed the deal.

However I believe your opinion on this is also correct.
That right there shows lack of maturity

Anthem
10-13-2008, 09:07 AM
I don't discount in the least what you guys have already said, but I think there's another piece. Quis gets more slack because we could cut him without a moment's notice if we wanted, and not owe him any more than we'd owe him anyway.

He'd get less slack with a 3-year contract.

RamBo_Lamar
10-13-2008, 09:31 AM
Wasn't Quis just sort of "there" at both events?

I don't like that he was there, nor do I care for the company he was keeping, but I don't think he really instigated anything. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Secondly, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Perhaps Quis is a hard worker off the court and the others aren't. Perhaps he has a good, teachable attitude in practice and the other two simply have an attitude. We don't know. But I give some leeway to TPTB regarding all this, because they have more info than we do.


But McKeyFan, what happened to Quis needing to be traded because he
dresses like a rooster (or is it a chicken)?

;)

Tom White
10-13-2008, 09:32 AM
That right there shows lack of maturity

Or just not giving a rodent's hind quarter.

Hicks
10-13-2008, 09:55 AM
I think the fact that we can save money by letting him leave this next summer is why we didn't trade him.

Major Cold
10-13-2008, 10:10 AM
McKey fan I put Eddie Jones on the least because without him the gap would be bigger and thus could be used as fudging the numbers. As for Jack he was a 22nd overall pick and I was trying to find the highest picks on each team.

It just goes to show you that quality players are more important than draft picks.

pacergod2
10-13-2008, 10:25 AM
I loved the pick at the time. You can't blame someone drafting at 17 to take anything but the BEST TALENT on the board. At the time, it was easily Shawne Williams. The guy is fluid and can shoot. At 6'9" or 6'10" whatever he is, he can dribble, drive, pass and shoot as well as anybody coming out of college at 17 or later in the draft. If you recall, Marcus Williams was not that great and left for the pros because he stole laptops in college. He dropped for a reason. NOT the player we want. Rajon Rondo was loved as a player because he has huge hands for a point guard. The guy couldnt shoot and still cant. He had some raw ability and that was really it. If you put Shawne on that Boston team, he would look way better than he really is as well. I had no problems with the pick when it happened and still don't. I honestly think that Bird has done a good job with our draft picks.

But we have been in this state of mediocrity for too long. Just good enough to be a playoff team and not bad enough to get a decent pick. The best pick we have had went to the Hawks last year (knowing we actually got the 13th pick this year, who i love). We have picked 17th thrice, 11th twice, and 29th once since Bird got on board. We picked a legit 7 footer which was a very good pick at 29. We took Granger, a supposed top 10 pick that fell, enough said. Then we take Shawne at 17, who had as much upside as anybody outside of the top 5 in that draft. I have a feeling he will be much better in Dallas than he was in Indiana, but we have prioritized this PR effort instead of allowing him to develop physically and basketball wise. I think the expectations of an 18 year with millions are too high and am glad to see that the NBA makes kids go to college for a year before heading to the pros now. Then we traded our first for Harrington. This year we had the 11th pick and i always thought he was the third best guard in the draft (rose, mayo). I love the move. Also, snagging Hibbert who was a top 5 talent his sophomore and junior years at 17 was a terrific move. The one player I was hoping to fall to 17 was Speights, but he was taken by Philly at 16. I think we got our guy because of how quick the pick was made. I think Bird has done an excellent job in the draft in terms of talent from where we have drafted.

pacerfreak
10-13-2008, 10:38 AM
Not sure what will follow this trade, (if anything), but the jury's still out IMO. We'll see in a couple of months of b-ball.

"Freak...out.

Anthem
10-13-2008, 10:40 AM
As time goes on, I'm getting a bad feeling about this trade.

I originally thought it was a precursor to a Tinsley trade, which seemed like a good deal. Now, though, I'm wondering if it's Bird saying "Well we couldn't get rid of Tinsley so we'll sacrifice Shawne to show we're doing something."

Not a good thought.

BlueNGold
10-13-2008, 10:54 AM
That right there shows lack of maturity

Yes, I agree, but I think oversleeping a court date goes beyond poor judgment and immaturity...straight into stupidity. Sorry for using that word, but it's the only one that really fits.

It's not easy to infuse judgment into people and it's even more difficult to overcome stupidity....and apparently the Pacers saw a mountain too steep to climb with millions and maybe the franchise on the line.

I don't know the guy, but I know he's not that great of a basketball player...and currently not as good as 3 other players that play his position on the Pacers. I also know Bird and the Simons know him better....so I'm not going to second guess them.

avoidingtheclowns
10-13-2008, 10:54 AM
not sure why you feel that way anthem. if it is a precursor to a tinsley deal, then great. but if not, still good.

we needed to reduce roster size and instead of just cutting shawne or paying someone else to just go home, we got dallas to give us a washed up vet, pay his way home AND send us two 2nds for our trouble. shawne had potential but in two years had not demonstrated any particular progress. just seeing the way he was given (or not given) minutes last year i doubt that was going to change. on top of his lack of progress on the court there was also the added bonus of him being a knucklehead off of it.

ultimately, bird got a better deal for shawne than the nets got for marcus williams (it think it was a HEAVILY protected first that will most likely end up being a second in several years -- correct me if i'm wrong about the deal). i would have been fine keeping shawne but i don't really see the harm in letting him go either.

count55
10-13-2008, 11:26 AM
not sure why you feel that way anthem. if it is a precursor to a tinsley deal, then great. but if not, still good.

we needed to reduce roster size and instead of just cutting shawne or paying someone else to just go home, we got dallas to give us a washed up vet, pay his way home AND send us two 2nds for our trouble. shawne had potential but in two years had not demonstrated any particular progress. just seeing the way he was given (or not given) minutes last year i doubt that was going to change. on top of his lack of progress on the court there was also the added bonus of him being a knucklehead off of it.

ultimately, bird got a better deal for shawne than the nets got for marcus williams (it think it was a HEAVILY protected first that will most likely end up being a second in several years -- correct me if i'm wrong about the deal). i would have been fine keeping shawne but i don't really see the harm in letting him go either.


I agree with this sentiment. This deal may be separate from Droopy's, but I don't think they ever thought that it was/would be a quasi-substitute for moving Jamaal. I think this deal was there to make, so they made it. Bird and O'Brien are probably more committed to moving Tinsley than anyone on this board. I don't think they could tell themselves that this would be a sufficient way to say they're "doing something", let alone try to sell it to us.

The Marcus Williams deal has the pick lottery protected in 2011, 2012, & 2013. If the protection holds (GS doesn't make the playoffs), then NJ gets the 2013 and 2015 2nd Round picks from GS.

avoidingtheclowns
10-13-2008, 11:32 AM
The Marcus Williams deal has the pick lottery protected in 2011, 2012, & 2013. If the protection holds (GS doesn't make the playoffs), then NJ gets the 2013 and 2015 2nd Round picks from GS.

hmmm ... i thought the 1st was more heavily protected - like the memphis-washington juan carlos navarro trade. thanks for the clarification.

oh and how do you feel about our cap space next year?

Jonathan
10-13-2008, 11:41 AM
Bird drafted Shawne and moved him. We can play the "what if game" all day and night. Yes the Pacers could have drafted Farmer or Rondo. If they do draft one of those players do we do the O'neal Trade?
Dumars drafted Darko and moved him.

I read Eddie Jones wanted to go to a contender. The Pacers are a contender right now for the following reasons. 1. The East is wide open. Players do get injured and we have depth. 2. Every Team is 0-0. Nobody thought the Rays would be playing in the post season but they are. I remember Johnny Gomes going after Duncan (Yanks) in the preseseason for sliding high on Iwonamori. Hibbert did not back down from Ely in his first game. I like the attitude of not laying down for other teams b/c they are susposed to be better than U.

count55
10-13-2008, 12:04 PM
hmmm ... i thought the 1st was more heavily protected - like the memphis-washington juan carlos navarro trade. thanks for the clarification.

oh and how do you feel about our cap space next year?

Well, that is pretty heavy protection out West. It's pretty unclear as to how much Baron's departure is going to hurt Golden State, but that's a bad conference to be vulnerable.

:whistle::goodnight

Bball
10-13-2008, 12:30 PM
As time goes on, I'm getting a bad feeling about this trade.

I originally thought it was a precursor to a Tinsley trade, which seemed like a good deal. Now, though, I'm wondering if it's Bird saying "Well we couldn't get rid of Tinsley so we'll sacrifice Shawne to show we're doing something."

Not a good thought.


What exactly about Shawne have you seen to make it seem he's a keeper on the rise? He spent his first year as a rookie who looked like he had 'potential'. He spent his second year looking lost and the potential he once showed had a ceiling that was lowering every second he stepped on the floor. He didn't look much different this preseason either. Then factor in the current PR status of the Pacers and Shawne's proclivity to find himself in bad situations.

Plus, since this move obviously means the Pacers have been interested in trading Shawne, doesn't it also point to his value not being much on the open market? Surely, if there was a better deal wouldn't they have taken it?

I like the fact we now have a front office that is willing to move on and admit a mistake rather than letting it fester in hopes something will change (when the odds are against that). I personally think it creates a better, more competitive atmosphere for the entire team. For team members who care about the team it shows management does too. For new players it shows them that management won't tolerate certain behaviors, expects hard work on the court, and won't be handing out extensions like candy.

McKeyFan
10-13-2008, 12:35 PM
What exactly about Shawne have you seen to make it seem he's a keeper on the rise? He spent his first year as a rookie who looked like he had 'potential'. He spent his second year looking lost and the potential he once showed had a ceiling that was lowering every second he stepped on the floor. He didn't look much different this preseason either. Then factor in the current PR status of the Pacers and Shawne's proclivity to find himself in bad situations.

Plus, since this move obviously means the Pacers have been interested in trading Shawne, doesn't it also point to his value not being much on the open market? Surely, if there was a better deal wouldn't they have taken it?

I like the fact we now have a front office that is willing to move on and admit a mistake rather than letting it fester in hopes something will change (when the odds are against that). I personally think it creates a better, more competitive atmosphere for the entire team. For team members who care about the team it shows management does too. For new players it shows them that management won't tolerate certain behaviors, expects hard work on the court, and won't be handing out extensions like candy.

Keep this up and you might provoke Peck to write his eight page diatribe on the Walsh years.

rexnom
10-13-2008, 12:37 PM
What exactly about Shawne have you seen to make it seem he's a keeper on the rise? He spent his first year as a rookie who looked like he had 'potential'. He spent his second year looking lost and the potential he once showed had a ceiling that was lowering every second he stepped on the floor. He didn't look much different this preseason either. Then factor in the current PR status of the Pacers and Shawne's proclivity to find himself in bad situations.

Plus, since this move obviously means the Pacers have been interested in trading Shawne, doesn't it also point to his value not being much on the open market? Surely, if there was a better deal wouldn't they have taken it?

I like the fact we now have a front office that is willing to move on and admit a mistake rather than letting it fester in hopes something will change (when the odds are against that). I personally think it creates a better, more competitive atmosphere for the entire team. For team members who care about the team it shows management does too. For new players it shows them that management won't tolerate certain behaviors, expects hard work on the court, and won't be handing out extensions like candy.
Wow. I really agree with that. Excellent point.

McKeyFan
10-13-2008, 12:45 PM
But McKeyFan, what happened to Quis needing to be traded because he
dresses like a rooster (or is it a chicken)?

;)

Maybe in the off season he is less chickenesque.

P.S. Nice to know someone remembers my rants. ;)

McKeyFan
10-13-2008, 12:47 PM
The one player I was hoping to fall to 17 was Speights, but he was taken by Philly at 16. I think we got our guy because of how quick the pick was made.

I think Bird is happy with Hibbert, but I am suspicious that Speights was his first choice. Just before the draft, Bird cited Hibbert as a guy he was interested in, and usually you don't do that. Usually you cite players you want the other team to pick.

My theory anyway.

Will Galen
10-13-2008, 01:04 PM
I think Bird is happy with Hibbert, but I am suspicious that Speights was his first choice. Just before the draft, Bird cited Hibbert as a guy he was interested in, and usually you don't do that. Usually you cite players you want the other team to pick.

My theory anyway.

Bird's got a history of doing that, so he tells the truth this time and no one believes him. The point is you will in the future disregard whatever he says before the draft.

Speed
10-13-2008, 01:08 PM
What exactly about Shawne have you seen to make it seem he's a keeper on the rise? He spent his first year as a rookie who looked like he had 'potential'. He spent his second year looking lost and the potential he once showed had a ceiling that was lowering every second he stepped on the floor. He didn't look much different this preseason either. Then factor in the current PR status of the Pacers and Shawne's proclivity to find himself in bad situations.

Plus, since this move obviously means the Pacers have been interested in trading Shawne, doesn't it also point to his value not being much on the open market? Surely, if there was a better deal wouldn't they have taken it?

I like the fact we now have a front office that is willing to move on and admit a mistake rather than letting it fester in hopes something will change (when the odds are against that). I personally think it creates a better, more competitive atmosphere for the entire team. For team members who care about the team it shows management does too. For new players it shows them that management won't tolerate certain behaviors, expects hard work on the court, and won't be handing out extensions like candy.

Also, I thought in summer league this year, he looked liked he regressed if anything.

rexnom
10-13-2008, 01:18 PM
hmmm ... i thought the 1st was more heavily protected - like the memphis-washington juan carlos navarro trade. thanks for the clarification.

oh and how do you feel about our cap space next year?
Well, it doesn't really matter since I don't think GS will be making the playoffs any time soon. I think we got just as good of a deal.

OakMoses
10-13-2008, 01:21 PM
Also, I thought in summer league this year, he looked liked he regressed if anything.

I think all of Shawne's problems are located above the shoulders. Needless to say, I like this trade.

Justin Tyme
10-13-2008, 01:40 PM
I think Bird is happy with Hibbert, but I am suspicious that Speights was his first choice. Just before the draft, Bird cited Hibbert as a guy he was interested in, and usually you don't do that. Usually you cite players you want the other team to pick.

My theory anyway.


I can't testify to whether Speights was Bird's choice, but he sure as heck was mine!

Anthem
10-13-2008, 11:01 PM
not sure why you feel that way anthem. if it is a precursor to a tinsley deal, then great. but if not, still good.

we needed to reduce roster size and instead of just cutting shawne or paying someone else to just go home, we got dallas to give us a washed up vet, pay his way home AND send us two 2nds for our trouble. shawne had potential but in two years had not demonstrated any particular progress. just seeing the way he was given (or not given) minutes last year i doubt that was going to change. on top of his lack of progress on the court there was also the added bonus of him being a knucklehead off of it.

ultimately, bird got a better deal for shawne than the nets got for marcus williams (it think it was a HEAVILY protected first that will most likely end up being a second in several years -- correct me if i'm wrong about the deal). i would have been fine keeping shawne but i don't really see the harm in letting him go either.
The deal itself was fine; I like Graham and Rush love the idea of them getting Shawne's minutes.

The problem for me was that at first I thought the trade signified another deal on the horizon. Now I'm starting to think it signifies no deals at all.

Anthem
10-14-2008, 09:51 AM
I read Eddie Jones wanted to go to a contender. The Pacers are a contender right now
I'll admit, I stopped reading right there.

rexnom
10-14-2008, 10:37 AM
The deal itself was fine; I like Graham and Rush love the idea of them getting Shawne's minutes.

The problem for me was that at first I thought the trade signified another deal on the horizon. Now I'm starting to think it signifies no deals at all.
That may be. However, I don't think this deal is a PR-sub for a Tinsley deal.

Justin Tyme
10-14-2008, 11:32 AM
The Nets have too many bigs and need a 3rd PG from what Hoopshype reported this morning. Hum? Tinsley for Swift? Diener for Sean Williams or Josh Boone?

Anthem
10-14-2008, 12:07 PM
The Nets have too many bigs and need a 3rd PG from what Hoopshype reported this morning. Hum? Tinsley for Swift? Diener for Sean Williams or Josh Boone?
I doubt they take Tinsley, but I'd trade Diener for Sean Williams in a heartbeat.

That would be really funny, actually.

rexnom
10-14-2008, 12:13 PM
I doubt they take Tinsley, but I'd trade Diener for Sean Williams in a heartbeat.

That would be really funny, actually.
Why'd they trade Marcus Williams?

aceace
10-14-2008, 01:07 PM
I don't think Birds drafting of Sean Williams was a mistake 1. He had talent 2. He had a huge upside. 3. The players still available were not impressive.

Only in hindsight did it become apparent that Sean was a mistake. You cannot ever judge a personality from a few interviews. Anybody can be an actor for a brief time. Eventually your true self comes out. Bird gets a pass on this just for the fact that he drafted a player that should have been very good for a #17 pick. What did we really lose? We got something back and this may also lead to getting rid of the other problem.

Jonathan
10-14-2008, 01:13 PM
I'll admit, I stopped reading right there.

Anthem, I think TJ Ford is that good. He is a top ten PG in the league. We also have a lot of expiring contracts making us a trade away from doing damage in the East. Atlanta took Boston to seven games in round one last year. Watch out for the Pacers this season!

Jonathan
10-14-2008, 01:15 PM
The Nets have too many bigs and need a 3rd PG from what Hoopshype reported this morning. Hum? Tinsley for Swift? Diener for Sean Williams or Josh Boone?

Bring in the forty year old Darell Armstrong. They will not be taking on Tinsley's Contract.

Speed
10-14-2008, 01:19 PM
Anthem, I think TJ Ford is that good. He is a top ten PG in the league. We also have a lot of expiring contracts making us a trade away from doing damage in the East. Atlanta took Boston to seven games in round one last year. Watch out for the Pacers this season!

Why I don't agree they are even close to competing for a championship. I do like the comparison and vision.

It seems that B Rush and Hibbert could be ready for big time minutes NEXT year and I mean potentially starter type minutes. This is huge, but what it means moreso is you have a two players that aren't needed next year in Rasho and Marquis.

Can Larry turn 14-15 million in expiring contracts into one stud player like an Elton Brand?

It kind of feels like you've plugged those holes in the rotation and could move to instantly to improve the team dramatically, without giving up anything on the court.

I mean its a huge if, the Brand situation has it's risks and what if there's not a situation like that, that becomes available.

I don't want to get into if its possible or the merits of it, but if you dream you could have a chance at Carlos Boozer, I think an acutal REAL possiblity is Shawn Marion.

Add Shawn Marion to the mix Next year and keep the core intact, I think then you really could make some noise.

Overall, all I'm saying the Pacers are in a really good postion now. Last year seems like so long ago now.

Justin Tyme
10-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Can Larry turn 14-15 million in expiring contracts into one stud player like an Elton Brand?

?????

Speed
10-14-2008, 03:24 PM
?????

I mean for example an Elton Brand type player, not Elton Brand himself. I was making the comparison how Phille was competitive in the East and was able to add big piece of the puzzle with Brand.

Marquis and Rasho make appr 15.26 million and are in the last years of their deal, if you can find a team wanting to cut salary (maybe Dallas if they tank this year) or they are going in another direction (maybe Miami with Marion) then you can turn those expiring contracts into a bigtime player, maybe.

Basically, what Boston did year before last is what I'm stumbling to get at.

Justin Tyme
10-14-2008, 03:41 PM
I mean for example an Elton Brand type player, not Elton Brand himself. I was making the comparison how Phille was competitive in the East and was able to add big piece of the puzzle with Brand.

Marquis and Rasho make appr 15.26 million and are in the last years of their deal, if you can find a team wanting to cut salary (maybe Dallas if they tank this year) or they are going in another direction (maybe Miami with Marion) then you can turn those expiring contracts into a bigtime player, maybe.

Basically, what Boston did year before last is what I'm stumbling to get at.


Marion is an expiring, so why would Miami want to trade an expiring for an expiring(Rasho) and a team option(Daniels)? What's the advantage to that?

I get the drift of what you want, but bottom line is the Pacers are not in a position cap or salary wise to do it unless Murphy or Dun is in the deal. They then become deal busters with their contracts.

OakMoses
10-14-2008, 04:48 PM
Marion is an expiring, so why would Miami want to trade an expiring for an expiring(Rasho) and a team option(Daniels)? What's the advantage to that?


Maybe we throw in a 1st round pick? If we're near .500 or above at the deadline and Miami's looking like they're going to miss the playoffs, I think a Rasho/Daniels/1st rounder for Marion might be a good idea. We don't lose any long-term flexibility. We a couple months to see if Marion works with the guys we have. We make a serious push for moving out of the first round of the playoffs. And all we have to give up is a pick in the early to mid 20's.

indygeezer
10-14-2008, 04:51 PM
This is beginning to sound like it belongs in the Trade Thread. Not meaning to offend anyone, it's just evolved.

McKeyFan
10-14-2008, 05:33 PM
No thanks to Marion.

He is an upgrade to Murph defensively, no doubt. But I don't think his post play is all that stellar. He doesn't solve our problem.

count55
10-14-2008, 05:41 PM
Plus, every time I watch that grand mal seizure he calls a jump shot, I want to claw my eyes out.

McKeyFan
10-14-2008, 05:51 PM
Plus, every time I watch that grand mal seizure he calls a jump shot, I want to claw my eyes out.

So why is everyone so high on him?

Anthem
10-14-2008, 05:55 PM
So why is everyone so high on him?
Because he's effective. Not pretty, but effective.

If Miami offered us Marion for Rasho and Daniels, and we said "no," I'd go nuts. But that would never happen at any level. Miami wouldn't allow it, and if they did TPTB wouldn't pass it up.

count55
10-14-2008, 06:23 PM
Because he's effective. Not pretty, but effective.

If Miami offered us Marion for Rasho and Daniels, and we said "no," I'd go nuts. But that would never happen at any level. Miami wouldn't allow it, and if they did TPTB wouldn't pass it up.

Yeah, I could do that...I'd just listen to more games on the radio.

McKeyFan
10-14-2008, 06:54 PM
Because he's effective. Not pretty, but effective.

If Miami offered us Marion for Rasho and Daniels, and we said "no," I'd go nuts. But that would never happen at any level. Miami wouldn't allow it, and if they did TPTB wouldn't pass it up.

I don't see him being effective on the post, but maybe I'm missing something. So I don't see him solving our problem down low. He's Murphy with great defense.

Anthem
10-14-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't see him being effective on the post, but maybe I'm missing something. So I don't see him solving our problem down low. He's Murphy with great defense.
Oh, he's not a post player. I'm with you there.

But "Murphy with great defense" is... I don't even know what to say. He's a far better offensive player than Murphy. I mean, it's not like a small upgrade. It's a pretty big step up from Murphy's offensive ability to Marion's offensive ability. Add in the fact that Matrix is a better rebounder and a FAR better defender, and there's just no contest.

d_c
10-14-2008, 08:29 PM
Oh, he's not a post player. I'm with you there.

But "Murphy with great defense" is... I don't even know what to say. He's a far better offensive player than Murphy. I mean, it's not like a small upgrade. It's a pretty big step up from Murphy's offensive ability to Marion's offensive ability. Add in the fact that Matrix is a better rebounder and a FAR better defender, and there's just no contest.

Marion does so many things better than Murphy it's comical to even mention the two in the same thread. Marion is by no means a franchise guy, but he does most of the "little" things people harp on that help teams win where as Murphy does almost none of them. Marion with poor defense would still be 3x the player Murphy is.

I just love it how multiple time all-stars get picked apart and marginalized to the point where they're now just a little bit better than guys like Troy Murphy.

JayRedd
10-14-2008, 08:29 PM
He's a far better offensive player than Murphy. I mean, it's not like a small upgrade. It's a pretty big step up from Murphy's offensive ability to Marion's offensive ability. Add in the fact that Matrix is a better rebounder and a FAR better defender, and there's just no contest.

I've also never seen someone compare a Troy Murphy drive to the hoop to the cinematic sci-fi adventure that revolutionized modern special effects.

YoSoyIndy
10-14-2008, 08:30 PM
I guess I can't be too bitter about this; Shawne dug his own grave.

I'm more-or-less disappointed with Bird's drafting history. Granger was a no-brainer. Everything else has been a bust so far. I hope Rush and Hibbert turn out to be the exception to the rule, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't understand the "Granger is a no-brainer" comment. 16 other teams passed on him, and there was a large group of fans yelling for Green.

BlueNGold
10-14-2008, 08:46 PM
McKeyfan usually has something brilliant to say, so let's cut him some slack....but for those who do not know...

Murphy and Marion should not even be used in the same sentence. Ha, I did it. One is a backup PF. The other is not just a starter, but an all-star. Throw out the incredible difference on defense, and Marion is still A LOT better.

The only thing Troy does better than Shawn statistically is shoot the 3...and he's not much better on that count. Shawn has a better FG%, FT%, Rebounds, Assists/TO and point total..usually while actually being defended...and of course he has more blocks, more steals and less fouls on D. It's funny even to try to compare them...

Anthem
10-14-2008, 09:06 PM
I've also never seen someone compare a Troy Murphy drive to the hoop to the cinematic sci-fi adventure that revolutionized modern special effects.
That movie alone launched the DVD player in America. Some folks already had one, of course, but it was The Matrix's christmastime release that made people say "Okay, NOW I've got to get a DVD player."

That moment has not yet come for the Blu-Ray.

JayRedd
10-14-2008, 09:20 PM
That movie alone launched the DVD player in America. Some folks already had one, of course, but it was The Matrix's christmastime release that made people say "Okay, NOW I've got to get a DVD player."

Young Matrix made people say "Okay, NOW what the **** did that dude just do?"

The kid was like a bigger Sprewell the way he tried to rip the rim out the glass. (See 0:25, 0:42, 0:54, 1:20, 1:33, and 1:56)

R-UM8jUkXWE

Anthem
10-15-2008, 01:21 AM
Young Matrix made people say "Okay, NOW what the **** did that dude just do?"

The kid was like a bigger Sprewell the way he tried to rip the rim out the glass. (See 0:25, 0:42, 0:54, 1:20, 1:33, and 1:56)

R-UM8jUkXWE
Looks like Murphy to me.

imawhat
10-15-2008, 01:33 AM
I don't know the reason, but there has to be a reason he's not been openly criticized (and openly shopped) as the others have been. I'm willing to believe Daniels is doing something right.

I thought a lot about this, and I think it has some validity.

We know that Daniels dedicated his summer to the team, staying in Indy and rehabbing with the trainers to make sure he was 100% healthy for the regular season.

I think Marquis showed he was committed. He wound up in the promotional videos, yet Shawne and Tinsley were the only players (not counting Rasho) who didn't make one, meaning the franchise showed commitment to Marquis.

Mourning
10-15-2008, 01:51 AM
Looks like Murphy to me.

Obviously :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: