PDA

View Full Version : Indianapolis at Houston Game thread 10/5/08



Lord Helmet
10-05-2008, 05:23 AM
:colts:(1-2) The Colts are fresh off a Bye week and hope the rest can pay off and get them a win.

:texans: (0-3) After a heart breaking loss to the Jaguars last week, the Texans hope for something different today.

Time: 1:00 PM

Location: Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

Television: :cbssports:

Lord Helmet
10-05-2008, 05:25 AM
Here's my thoughts on the game, taken from my post in the Guess the score thread:


I think we'll finally get our offense making more of the big plays that we've seemed to fall short on the first 3 games of the season.

I don't expect much from the defense, hopefully we'll "bend but not break" and make some plays.

I expect the Texans to play really well, we cannot take this game lighty at all, and I'm sure no one is except maybe the fans. They've beaten us before and the Texans could have easily beaten the Jaguars last week, but lost in OT.

This could be a scary game for us, the Texans are going to be really hungry for a win, and if I'm not mistaken, it is their home opener, and they're going to want to get a win for the community even more after the hurricane.

But the Colts have to wake up sooner or later, don't they? We're coming off the bye week, hopefully getting healthier, obviously Sanders won't be back, but having Ugoh possibly return to the line with Saturday could help us a lot.

Even with just Saturday's return, the run game seemed a lot better against Jacksonville, and we'll need the offense to play like old if we want to get a win this week.

Jonathan
10-05-2008, 09:53 AM
I do not know what to think of this game.
The Texans going 0-4 is suprising
The Colts going 1-3 is suprising.

I hope the D can contain Slaton. I have talked about him before on this site. The Colts D has problems with smaller RB's.

Natston
10-05-2008, 12:04 PM
Schaub is out.

Moses
10-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Sage Rosenfels will start at QB for the Texans Sunday. Matt Schaub is sick.
This isn't time to use Rosenfels in a fantasy league, though; Schaub is active and could come into the game if he feels better after a quarter or at halftime. The Texans are also playing the Colts, whose pass defense is second in the NFL. The extent of Schaub's "sickness" is unknown, but he reportedly fell ill late Saturday. Oct. 5 - 12:08 pm
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&hl=125682&id=1276

Bball
10-05-2008, 12:58 PM
The Colts have a history of making b/u QB's look like Joe Montana.

...Of course considering the Colts can't stop the run a team only needs the QB to give the ends a target to go after while the runners just run to the lanes they open up... :(

Will Dungy be awake for the game?

-Bball

SoupIsGood
10-05-2008, 01:07 PM
What the hell? I can't find the game on tv. What station do you guys have it on? (As in, like the local station you're watching it on, if you are. [WTTV 4 for example.])

Natston
10-05-2008, 01:16 PM
good start for the defense

SoupIsGood
10-05-2008, 01:18 PM
WTF. This game is supposed to be on WISH 8, but they're showing some lameass kiddy sports movie instead. The hell? Bah.

Natston
10-05-2008, 01:27 PM
SANTI!

aero
10-05-2008, 01:27 PM
WTF. This game is supposed to be on WISH 8, but they're showing some lameass kiddy sports movie instead. The hell? Bah.

you must have brighthouse cable ?

Natston
10-05-2008, 01:27 PM
TOUCHDOWN ADDAI!

Infinite MAN_force
10-05-2008, 01:31 PM
10-0

good start.

SoupIsGood
10-05-2008, 01:32 PM
you must have brighthouse cable ?


Yep. :( I just figured that out. Oh well, I've got a internet feed now. Better than finagling around w/ an antenna.

Natston
10-05-2008, 01:51 PM
****

SoupIsGood
10-05-2008, 02:04 PM
This game is pain.

pacercoltfan
10-05-2008, 02:23 PM
Come on Colts!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We cannot affoard to go 1-3!!!!!!!!!!!

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 02:34 PM
It's been all downhill since the first 7 or 8 minutes. This team just is not playing with any focus or sense of urgency as far as I can see. Turnovers, poor O-line play, dropped passes, defense continues to look pourous other than the opening series of the game. Will we respond in the 2nd half or just offer up some more blase' performance.

Trader Joe
10-05-2008, 02:42 PM
This team sucks.

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 02:58 PM
D-line holding on 3rd and 17 resulting in a first down. Ugh!

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:05 PM
Low snap on the HOU field goal attempt and we still can't block it. Just pathetic so far.

pacercoltfan
10-05-2008, 03:06 PM
OMG! WE'RE GOING TO LOSE TO THE FREAKIN' TEXANS!!!!!!!!!!!! :suicide:

idioteque
10-05-2008, 03:07 PM
The Colts=epitome of a finesse, gimmicky team. There are times where they can be on and there are times...

The way this FO has built a defense is weird. We all know Polian is capable- so why doesn't he build a real smash mouth defense instead of relying on midget no-names in the front seven?

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:19 PM
I swear Freeney has to be the 'most held' DE in the league.

Bball
10-05-2008, 03:21 PM
Can we just fire Dungy and Meeks now? I'm not sure I want to waste another season and give Dungy's 'heir apparent' a chance either unless he's something other than a Dungy clone.... and I'm assuming he is and will keep Meeks.

We should've let Dungy retire this season and been using it to evaluate Caldwell...

The Dungy era is over and this defense and system is figured out... and if Polian isn't head hunting, he should be.

idioteque
10-05-2008, 03:24 PM
27-10 Texans. My score was unfortunately spot on so far.

pacercoltfan
10-05-2008, 03:26 PM
It's official we're bottom feeders now.. :suicide: :suicide2: :suicide3: :suicide4: :suicide5:

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:27 PM
It may well be the system, but I don't think they have any personnel to stop the run and I don't see any corners today covering anybody. Pass rush is practically non existent. Talent and execution have to be questioned, as well as motivation.

EDIT: Regardless of the root cause, Dungy looks completely disengaged even by his standards. That leads me to believe that he really should have retired.

Des4L
10-05-2008, 03:28 PM
I love the Colts but something drastic needs to be done about this defense - Dungy and Polian are great assets to a football team but I think both should move on with their lives.

Dungy needed to retire and Polian needs to make excuses elsewhere.

Too much emphasis in the draft of players with tremendous potential but not enough immediate talent to help our team. It has finally caught up to us... Speed is an amazing asset but we need SIZE or we're going to constantly give up rushing performances like this EVERY week.

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:28 PM
Right now the biggest problem is the offense. They can't do anything right...

Des4L
10-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Another thing that needs to be addressed - I think that surgery affected Manning more than they lead on.

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Actually, the biggest problem is everything. We don't look remotely good in any aspect of the game. Even Vinatieri botched another FG.

Bball
10-05-2008, 03:33 PM
defense wins games... offense sells tickets...

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:37 PM
****

idioteque
10-05-2008, 03:39 PM
Another attempt by the Colts to come alive in the last seven minutes after sleepwalking through the first three and a half quarters of the game.

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:42 PM
**** YEAH MOTHER****ER!

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:43 PM
ABSOLUTE LUCK!!!!!!!

Sollozzo
10-05-2008, 03:43 PM
WTF!

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:47 PM
Yet another example of a game we are actually in where we've been outplayed most of the way.

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:47 PM
THERE IS A GOD, AND JESUS!

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Thank you, Sage Rosenfels, for doing your best to hand us this win!

idioteque
10-05-2008, 03:50 PM
I will be happy if we can pull this off but either way we have a hell of a lot of work to do.

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:52 PM
We needed to run there but having the lead is sweet.

D-BONE
10-05-2008, 03:58 PM
Well, can our D actually stop them without Rosenfels's assistance here?

EDIT: Guess so. Or was that Sage stopping them again? Who cares! We win!

Natston
10-05-2008, 03:58 PM
YES! YES! YEEEEEEEEEEEES!

Infinite MAN_force
10-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Remember that tampa game a few years ago? haha, three touchdowns in two minutes. I feel so much better now. hahaha.

Bball
10-05-2008, 04:09 PM
This 'win' was about as undeserved as any win I've ever seen. It shouldn't change anything as far as the urgency to the problems we face.

I feel sorry for Rosenfels and I'm not sure the Houston fans should've been booing. Rosenfels' had picked apart the Colts all day. The dismantling at the end was as much freak accident as it was anything. How many fumbles from that position on the field lead to TD's going the other way?

But the last two Houston possessions show you what really wins game... it's defense... and our's is a sieve. But it ultimately was a couple of defensive plays that got us back in the game. Rosenfels' problem was trying to do too much to seal the deal when being conservative would've been just fine.

idioteque
10-05-2008, 04:12 PM
This 'win' was about as undeserved as any win I've ever seen. It shouldn't change anything as far as the urgency to the problems we face.

I feel sorry for Rosenfels and I'm not sure the Houston fans should've been booing. Rosenfels' had picked apart the Colts all day. The dismantling at the end was as much freak accident as it was anything. How many fumbles from that position on the field lead to TD's going the other way?

But the last two Houston possessions show you what really wins game... it's defense... and our's is a sieve. But it ultimately was a couple of defensive plays that got us back in the game. Rosenfels' problem was trying to do too much to seal the deal when being conservative would've been just fine.

Preach it!

A win is a win, I guess. But we really didn't deserve to win that one. We still got ran over at times by a rookie RB and up until the end Rosenfelds was playing on par with Peyton...which says a lot more bad things about our awful defense than Peyton, who played just fine.

But this team has a long, long way to go if we hope to make the playoffs this season. Right now we are a 7-9 team at best.

DisplacedKnick
10-05-2008, 04:14 PM
I miss all the good stuff.

Colts were doing nothing so I flipped to the NASCAR race - big wreck so I watched some replays while cars parts flew all over the place. I switch back and the Colts are on the 5 at the 2-minute warning. Same as that Monday night game a few years back. Figured it was done so I turned it off and went to bed.

Doesn't change the fact that the Colts aren't looking very good so far. The defense has been really poor all year.

SoupIsGood
10-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Well, 2-2 is going to be a lot easier to climb out of than 1-3. As bad as we've looked at times, we've shown over the past few years that our average level of play is somewhere above this. Here's hoping we can get it together sometime soon... we're pretty lucky to have the two wins we've got.

Trader Joe
10-05-2008, 07:39 PM
Something needs to be addressed here folks, and that is this; this team still lacks talent at nearly every position on defense.

Our best defensive player is Robert Mathias and he is rarely on the field. Freeney was ineffective for 98% of the game and helps the opposing offense run the ball through his insistence of charging up the field.

Also our linebacking corps. is pathetic. Absolutely freakin' pathetic. Look I'm glad Brackett returned that fumble for a TD, but his speed on that return underscored why we are so horrible on D. He was almost run down from behind by an offensive tackle and would have been run down from behind by an offensive guard if Raheem Brock hadn't been able to block him.
We have the worst linebacking corps. in the NFL right now. They are small and even worse they are not athletic. When Bethea and Bob are both healthy and playing at 100% they can cover for them, but if not wow do they look awful. The fact that Keiaho is our leading tackler is an absolute disgrace considering he misses 3-4 easy tackles a game.

jeffg-body
10-05-2008, 09:45 PM
I know our D looked bad, but they were on the field a long time at stretches during the game and that will always make any D look bad when they get worn down a bit. The best friend of a good defense is a good running offense and we just didn't get it done for a majority of the game. When we get the rest of the o-line back we'll be ok. Our D is built for speed and containment and getting worn a bit is the consequence of lacking a big run stuffing DT tandem.

I have to admit that the last 5 minutes of the game was just absolutely sick. I had Tampa flashbacks.

Natston
10-06-2008, 12:24 AM
I know our D looked bad, but they were on the field a long time at stretches during the game and that will always make any D look bad when they get worn down a bit. The best friend of a good defense is a good running offense and we just didn't get it done for a majority of the game. When we get the rest of the o-line back we'll be ok. Our D is built for speed and containment and getting worn a bit is the consequence of lacking a big run stuffing DT tandem.

QFT

Bball
10-06-2008, 12:54 AM
The Colts had a bye week to 'fix' things and make some fundamental changes in a broken system. In classic Dungy fashion, they came back doing and looking like that exact same team that were already 1-2 and by all rights should've been 0-3. ...And now we have the most dishonest 2-2 record in the NFL.

A win is a win I guess, and 2-2 is better than 1-3, BUT this team is in trouble. It IS time to press the panic button. There's nothing to feel good about in today's "win". In fact, it should get an asterisk.

-Bball

Natston
10-06-2008, 02:05 AM
The only way to 'fix' things is through game reps.

They spent the bye week getting healthy, as evidenced by the two 'injured' players they had.

Peyton looks a lot closer 100% (noticeably on the scramble and the step ups in the pocket).

Marvin looks good, since he actually got past defenders.

Dallas was a welcome sight. Lilja and Ugoh will be coming back soon, so the O-Line will be healthy finally.

Pollack will continue to take his lumps (he was missing blocks early but appeared to settle in).

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think the defensive system is broken. They just need to tackle better. They also will benefit from a consistent running game and scoring.

duke dynamite
10-06-2008, 02:26 AM
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think the defensive system is broken. They just need to tackle better. They also will benefit from a consistent running game and scoring.

I agree. The pieces are there minus Sanders, but I really think they do need more work.

Bball
10-06-2008, 07:26 AM
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think the defensive system is broken. They just need to tackle better. They also will benefit from a consistent running game and scoring.


Sounds like bad coaching and preparation to me...

-Bball

Shade
10-06-2008, 01:36 PM
There's not really much to say. We were INSANELY lucky to win that game, and in fact, could very, very easily be 0-4 right now.

I can't help but think that we'll be okay once we get healthy, but can we stay afloat until then? As of right now, we're not even a playoff team.

Infinite MAN_force
10-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Something needs to be addressed here folks, and that is this; this team still lacks talent at nearly every position on defense.

Our best defensive player is Robert Mathias and he is rarely on the field. Freeney was ineffective for 98% of the game and helps the opposing offense run the ball through his insistence of charging up the field.

Also our linebacking corps. is pathetic. Absolutely freakin' pathetic. Look I'm glad Brackett returned that fumble for a TD, but his speed on that return underscored why we are so horrible on D. He was almost run down from behind by an offensive tackle and would have been run down from behind by an offensive guard if Raheem Brock hadn't been able to block him.
We have the worst linebacking corps. in the NFL right now. They are small and even worse they are not athletic. When Bethea and Bob are both healthy and playing at 100% they can cover for them, but if not wow do they look awful. The fact that Keiaho is our leading tackler is an absolute disgrace considering he misses 3-4 easy tackles a game.

it is basically the same defensive group from last year minus a few key injuries... which was actually a very high ranked defense. Middle of the pack against the run but near the top of the leauge against the pass, and a high scoring defense ... so I don't see how they lack talent at every position as you say.

EDIT: checked those numbers...

#3 total defense
#2 against the pass
#15 against the run
fewest points allowed in NFL.


Now the interior of the D-line minus Johnson and Pitcock is crap, thats for sure. But I don't see the problem with the linebackers or the secondary, specifically when we get Hagler and Sanders back. It will basically be the same group from last year.

Yeah, the D-line sucks pretty hard though.

A lot of people questioning the cover two also... have we not had two superbowls recently won by teams using Dungy's defensive scheme? It seems to me the key problem with the defense is a lack of talent(and size) of the interior D-line, and injuries. fairly simple. Lose the battle at the line of scrimmage and there is not a whole lot you can do.

If the offense could get its act together that would also be a big plus too.

Trader Joe
10-06-2008, 06:35 PM
Dungy's defense is a gimick defense. It has been figured out. Anyone who thinks we have quality linebackers is simply running from the truth. All of them have major flaws to their game. Brackett is an awful athlete. Keiaho has a great nose for the ball, and that's why he leads the team in tackles, but he probably also leads the team in missed tackles. (Him or Bethea) Sessions is extremely athletic it would seem, but is dumber than a box of rocks.


I agree. The pieces are there minus Sanders, but I really think they do need more work.

The pieces aren't there though. Hayden is a solid corner, but man Jackson looks like he has taken about eight steps backward. What's his excuse? We really missed the boat by letting Nick Harper walk, and to all places Tennessee.
Bethea has also taken several steps back, and do we even have a viable option for our nickel back? Bob is maybe the most injury prone player in the league, he makes JO look like an ironman in comparison. This defense was built around a flawed premise.

With or without Ed Johnson, the interior of our defensive line, to put it bluntly, blows.

Offensively, we still have some issues. Everyone except Reggie Wayne has had major consistency issues. Marvin is being quietly phased out of the offense, which is the right move in the long run, but how will he handle it? Gonzo has shown moments of brilliance, but has also shown a propensity to drop easy catches. Dallas has been solid, but still injury concerns, and man does it seem like Peyton hangs him out to dry a lot over the middle?

Also, trading our first round pick for Ugoh was a mistake. Period. The guy is not any better than Charlie Johnson (who is less than impressive), and on top of that he gets injured every three weeks. Color me unimpressed by every single one of our rookie offensive lineman. None of them have shown me any sign that they can be long term options. Diem looks to be totally out of it 80% of the time.

Addai is really struggling, but is still throwing down some of the most impressive one or two yard runs I've seen.


This team just has holes all over the place fellas. The window has closed.

Pacersfan46
10-08-2008, 06:58 PM
My god Indy, calm down. Nothing is as bad as you're making it.

Dungy's defense hasn't been 'figured out'. That's just silly. It's been used for many years and if they hadn't figured it out by now, I doubt the last 4 weeks some magical genie did it for someone.

The LB core looks bad because the defensive line is bad, period. When linebackers are being hit by offensive lineman there's something wrong, and I doubt it's the linebackers causing it. I've never asked one, but I'll bet they don't like having offensive lineman in their face. Just a hunch.

No, not everyone but Reggie Wayne has had consistancy issues, becuase well ... Wayne has missed a couple easy ones himself. Trading for Ugoh was not a mistake and he is a lot better than Charlie Johnson. The rookies offensive lineman look out of it because well ... they're rookies and they're playing out of position on top of it. The whole offensive line has been a revolving door. Let things settle down and give people a chance to get used to the guy next to them. It'll be fine if we can get healthy. At least the passing game. I really don't know what to say about the run blocking, it just simply wasn't good last year either.

No, things aren't great, and the team needs to get it together, but it's not the end of days the 'window' isn't 'closed' and all doom and gloom. Come on.

-- Steve --

Lord Helmet
10-08-2008, 08:02 PM
My god Indy, calm down. Nothing is as bad as you're making it.

Dungy's defense hasn't been 'figured out'. That's just silly. It's been used for many years and if they hadn't figured it out by now, I doubt the last 4 weeks some magical genie did it for someone.

The LB core looks bad because the defensive line is bad, period. When linebackers are being hit by offensive lineman there's something wrong, and I doubt it's the linebackers causing it. I've never asked one, but I'll bet they don't like having offensive lineman in their face. Just a hunch.

No, not everyone but Reggie Wayne has had consistancy issues, becuase well ... Wayne has missed a couple easy ones himself. Trading for Ugoh was not a mistake and he is a lot better than Charlie Johnson. The rookies offensive lineman look out of it because well ... they're rookies and they're playing out of position on top of it. The whole offensive line has been a revolving door. Let things settle down and give people a chance to get used to the guy next to them. It'll be fine if we can get healthy. At least the passing game. I really don't know what to say about the run blocking, it just simply wasn't good last year either.

No, things aren't great, and the team needs to get it together, but it's not the end of days the 'window' isn't 'closed' and all doom and gloom. Come on.

-- Steve --
That's how I feel. Ugoh is not better than Johnson? The window has closed? :laugh:

I know we haven't played well that much at all this season and could easily be 0-4, but I would not say our window is closed in the least bit.

D-BONE
10-08-2008, 08:30 PM
That's how I feel. Ugoh is not better than Johnson? The window has closed? :laugh:

I know we haven't played well that much at all this season and could easily be 0-4, but I would not say our window is closed in the least bit.

Don't think the window is definitively closed yet. The offense I think has a good chance to come together and improve over the season.

My question is whether the D can do the same given the personnel, particularly the interior line. We've had the unexpected losses. Foster is looking a little better every week it seems. Just don't know how effective he can really be as a run stopper. Brock and Dawson are also painfully small and better suited to DEs. We've got the Muir guy from GB who hasn't played. Can't say Lajuan Ramsey has been too impressive so far. Any thoughts on Ramsey and Muir?

Bball
10-09-2008, 02:26 AM
My god Indy, calm down. Nothing is as bad as you're making it.

Dungy's defense hasn't been 'figured out'. That's just silly. It's been used for many years and if they hadn't figured it out by now, I doubt the last 4 weeks some magical genie did it for someone.



It's not that the defense has been figured out... It's that the whole concept that the Colts rely on for both sides of the ball has been figured out and the Colts (Dungy? Polian?) refuse to adjust. Yes, part of it is the personnel on the field and part of the problem there is the size (on defense). For a season or two you figure it's bad luck or bad drafting.... but since it is a season after season thing then you have to figure it's by design.

The Colts' idea is to jump on you and get you to play from behind. The problem with that is teams don't have to play the Colts 'honestly' and the teams have all figured that out. I keep hearing people defending the Colt defense because they are statistically good against the pass. It's not that they are anything special against the pass, it's because you don't need to throw the ball when the Colts' run defense is a sieve! There's no such thing as a 'passing' down when you're playing against the Colts.

Meanwhile, if teams stick to their guns and don't try to beat the Colts on one play, they keep the Colt offense on the sidelines. This puts pressure on the Colt offense to be 'perfect' (because they get limited possessions). Plus, the Colt offense does have to play more honestly... the other team's defense is typically more traditionally built and always fired up to play the Colts. I'm not sure Dungy has ever fired anyone up to do anything... but I digress...

At this point, the Colts would probably be better off going the other direction and giving teams the air and nearly totally attacking the run. At least with the ball in the air you get the possibility of a badly run route, a dropped ball, or a poor throw. I don't think getting into shootouts is going to win you many championships either, but we're a sinking ship otherwise. Defense may win championships and offense may put fans in the stands... but our offense isn't going to continue to put contented fans in the stands with the offense sitting on the sidelines while the other team grinds away on the clock.

I also think it's demoralizing not only to the team but to fans seeing the other team grind away the clock and tear through your defense like a sieve... Watching a team beat you thru the air is one thing but running it down your throat just rips your heart out. Then when you're demoralized and wondering what you can do, you look at Dungy in his coma and steadfast refusal to 'continue doing what we do'.

Each game is so much more important in the NFL as opposed to the NBA. A player in the NBA will play more games in two years than a 10 year veteran in the NFL. That is why you don't waste seasons and talent in the NFL.

I'm not a fan of a 'small and fast' defense anyway. For one thing, you might start the season small and fast but as the season wears on the defense gets nicked up and injured and pretty soon they're not so fast anymore... but they still are small!

Dungy should've been given his walking papers after the loss to Pittsburgh in the playoffs 3 years back.

-Bball

Since86
10-09-2008, 10:34 AM
It's not that the defense has been figured out... It's that the whole concept that the Colts rely on for both sides of the ball has been figured out and the Colts (Dungy? Polian?) refuse to adjust. Yes, part of it is the personnel on the field and part of the problem there is the size (on defense). For a season or two you figure it's bad luck or bad drafting.... but since it is a season after season thing then you have to figure it's by design.

You act like the Tampa cover two scheme was hatched just 4 years ago. It's been around a lot longer than Dungy has been here. Every defense has been figured out, that's why blitz packages are changed by coordinators.

The defense is horrible right now, because their tackling is horrible. The scheme is designed to give up under plays, then swarm the ball making the gain minimal. The first players on the scene aren't brining the ballcarrier down, allowing them to gain the extra yardage. Shore up the tackling and you'll see a large improvement in the defense.

Offensively, your play calling is pretty limited when you don't have the line to establish any type of running game. It's easy to drop into coverage with linebackers and your DBs, when your front four is gobbling up the ball carrier. How do you expect Manning to go over the top, when every defense is playing that? Manning has multiple plays at his disposal when he steps under center. When you can't effectively run the ball, he's not going to call a running play.

Now I see why you're such a sunshiner about the Pacers. The Colts are eating up all your doom and gloom.

Bball
10-09-2008, 12:45 PM
You act like the Tampa cover two scheme was hatched just 4 years ago. It's been around a lot longer than Dungy has been here. Every defense has been figured out, that's why blitz packages are changed by coordinators.

The defense is horrible right now, because their tackling is horrible. The scheme is designed to give up under plays, then swarm the ball making the gain minimal. The first players on the scene aren't brining the ballcarrier down, allowing them to gain the extra yardage. Shore up the tackling and you'll see a large improvement in the defense.

I'm not saying the Cover 2 is the problem in and of itself. It's the over-reliance on attacking the pass and continuing to go for 'small and fast' players and totally ignoring the inherent weaknesses that leaves in the run defense. ...Which then totally foils the plan to jump on people and force them to play catchup through the air. We can't score if we don't have the ball.... and we can't score every possession anyway. Meanwhile, we're so easy to run against the other team can easily get into scoring position and chew up a bunch of clock doing it.

As for poor tackling, etc... at some point don't you have to look at coaching for a problem like that? Of course being undersized doesn't help.




Offensively, your play calling is pretty limited when you don't have the line to establish any type of running game. It's easy to drop into coverage with linebackers and your DBs, when your front four is gobbling up the ball carrier. How do you expect Manning to go over the top, when every defense is playing that? Manning has multiple plays at his disposal when he steps under center. When you can't effectively run the ball, he's not going to call a running play.

All this speaks to my concern over the Colts entire system under Dungy (and Polian). The offense CAN'T impose it's will and the defense CAN'T stop the run.

I'm blaming Dungy because I think his comatose demeanor and "we do what we do" attitude is part of the problem and has run its course.



Now I see why you're such a sunshiner about the Pacers. The Colts are eating up all your doom and gloom.


Keep in mind, I've been off the Dungy bandwagon for quite some time. This isn't a recent revelation. I've also seen the Colts make a fundamental change and win the SB... and then inexplicably revert back to a system that doesn't any longer work.

Trader Joe
10-09-2008, 02:05 PM
This team won't win a Super Bowl with this makeup. It's just not gonna happen, so yes the window has closed on this current team.

This team SHOULD be 0-4. Yet some of you are acting like they should be 4-0.

Charlie Johnson isn't great, but he gets a bad rap. The Colts won the Super Bowl with him starting. I haven't seen anything from Ugoh to show that he was worth a first round pick or that he is significantly better than Johnson. At least Charlie stays on the freakin' field.

Our rookies on the o-line aren't playing out of position. None of them were going to start at center, and I'd imagine most of their snaps since they arrived have been from the guard position.

Dungy should be gone. For the team's good and his own good, his mind is clearly not focused 100% on football anymore.

The Colts won a Super Bowl. Awesome, it was enjoyable. It doesn't mean you have to overlook every single flaw they have for the next ten years.

Since86
10-09-2008, 04:55 PM
From the great words of Peck (summed up)......Don't get too high after a win and don't get too low after a loss.

Where has anyone acted like they should be 4-0? Rationalizing why they're playing so badly isn't calling them better than they are. Obviously they have shortcomings that need fixing.

The scheme is the exact same scheme it just has different/injured parts. Skill position players are getting older (Harrison) and others are still learning (Gonzo).

It's foundation is extremely strong, and it sounds like you guys think the team should start moving in another direction.

First priority right now should be to get Sanders and the oline healthy. Obviously the Colts are going to go as their offense goes. Being able to get set on offense by having steady play up front will help tremendously.

They're a long way from where they should be, but they're also a long way away from needing the team tore down and replaced.

EDIT: Personally, I think we as fans are spoiled by them. We're so used to running away with everything that now we're in the middle of the pack for different reasons and it's freaking us out. We're in a better position, team wise, than most other middle of the road teams.

Trader Joe
10-09-2008, 05:01 PM
I do think we should go in another direction, in terms of

1.) Our defensive line.

2.) Our linebackers.

It's fine to have ends that rush the passer, but we have been completely inept at developing defensive tackles.

Maybe I'm kind of old school, but I prefer linebackers who are big and strong. I hate our linebacking core right now. I just don't think they are that good, and I really don't think I'm that out of bounds by saying so.

The foundation is strong in the sense that we have some great stars still (Peyton, Reggie, Bob (when healthy)), but our d-line needs an overhaul, and our o-line could also use some work.

This team will probably still make the playoffs, and that's great, but hasn't Peck also admonished the Pacers time and again about not aspriring to be mediocre? That's how I would describe this Colts team, mediocre.

Sollozzo
10-09-2008, 05:06 PM
EDIT: Personally, I think we as fans are spoiled by them. We're so used to running away with everything that now we're in the middle of the pack for different reasons and it's freaking us out. We're in a better position, team wise, than most other middle of the road teams.


Good pint. I mean, jesus, this team has won 5 straight division championships and has 5 straight 12 win seasons. That is practically unheard of (the Pats have 5 straight div titles, but had a 10 win season in there).

I still think a healthy Manning will change a lot of things. We scored 10 quick points in the first quarter then didn't score again until the drive that led to the first 7 of 21 fourth quarter points. That certainly puts a lot of pressure on the defense, which is built to protect leads.

Harrison has been burning some defenders, and has actually looked pretty decent. If this was 04 Manning, Harrison would have 3 or 4 touchdowns by now.

Trader Joe
10-09-2008, 05:19 PM
I agree with the spoiled point. However, I think some are thinking, "Well, we're the Colts. No way our windows closed."

Just like many of us (including myself) bought into the broken Pacers roster even after the brawl.

Pacersfan46
10-10-2008, 07:38 PM
I just don't get the panic. This is the same flawed defense we won a Super Bowl with, and have succeeded with for several years in a row. Why now is this suddenly the end of our 'window'? Wouldn't you have said the window was closed 2 years ago when we gave up 400 rushing yards to the Jaguars? Exactly my point. This is nothing new, and it hasn't been new for several years.

As for your logic Bball, teams knew 5 years ago they could run the ball on us, keep Peyton on the sidelnes and 'wah-la' ... formula for beating the Colts. Again, it hasnt' worked for several years, at least not in the grand scheme. Yes it's worked from time to time, but stack our recent record against anyone not from New England.

Another reason this problem seems more apparent .... weeks one and two were Manning's preseason this year. You could probably chalk week three in there too, but nobody can deny he's looked progressively better as the weeks have gone on. In a normal training camp and preseason Manning has 6 to 8 weeks of practice I would guess (?) with his recievers before the season starts. This year ... he had a couple of days. So when will he be back at full strength and have the timing back? My guess would be from week 6 - 8, to be honest.


All these complaints are the same things I've heard for years, and we've over come them for years ..... I just don't get why everyone thinks we will suddenly suck because of them now. :confused:

-- Steve --

Trader Joe
10-11-2008, 02:01 PM
That Super Bowl winning team had Booger plugging the middle. So no this defense is not at all like the super bowl winning team. Plus didn't we have Thornton at LB when we won the super bowl? Those are two HUGE differences.

SoupIsGood
10-11-2008, 02:31 PM
Nope, David was gone by then.

PS. I agree with p46 on everything except the DT position. We're legitimately ****ed there, and won't when anything big unless Polian trades to upgrade it.

Pacersfan46
10-11-2008, 06:00 PM
That Super Bowl winning team had Booger plugging the middle. So no this defense is not at all like the super bowl winning team. Plus didn't we have Thornton at LB when we won the super bowl? Those are two HUGE differences.

The same Booger clogging the middle during the time that we allowed league wide rush defense records in a very bad way? That's not exactly making your point for you.

Again, we were getting gashed much worse in those days (yes, with Booger) than we are now. I'm just at a loss on why we are suddenly NOW doomed, but we weren't then. You can't seem to really explain it either.

-- Steve --

Bball
10-12-2008, 03:35 AM
As for your logic Bball, teams knew 5 years ago they could run the ball on us, keep Peyton on the sidelnes and 'wah-la' ... formula for beating the Colts. Again, it hasnt' worked for several years, at least not in the grand scheme. Yes it's worked from time to time, but stack our recent record against anyone not from New England.

-- Steve --

I disagree... Teams would play the Colts 'honestly', especially teams that weren't disciplined enough to veer from the normal game plan. Teams wouldn't run on passing downs for example. But now they do. More importantly, teams we met in the playoffs were much more likely to be disciplined... and that is where we've been woefully inadequate... except for the SB playoff run (which I still say we pushed the panic button and made a fundamental change but we didn't stick with it).

But now, it's simply a fact of life teams are going to run, Forest, run... And we can't stop them. In fact, we're so eager to spin ourselves out of position on the ends headhunting the QB (I'm looking at you Freeney) that we make it easier for teams to run against our already soft run defense.

Pacersfan46
10-12-2008, 09:24 PM
I disagree... Teams would play the Colts 'honestly', especially teams that weren't disciplined enough to veer from the normal game plan. Teams wouldn't run on passing downs for example. But now they do. More importantly, teams we met in the playoffs were much more likely to be disciplined... and that is where we've been woefully inadequate... except for the SB playoff run (which I still say we pushed the panic button and made a fundamental change but we didn't stick with it).

But now, it's simply a fact of life teams are going to run, Forest, run... And we can't stop them. In fact, we're so eager to spin ourselves out of position on the ends headhunting the QB (I'm looking at you Freeney) that we make it easier for teams to run against our already soft run defense.

99.999% of the time I agree with what you say ... Pacers and Colts board, but on this one you must be just simply watching a different team than I. Freeney has done that since he got here, and so has the entire defense. I've watched every Colts game since the 1 - 15 record, so I'm not entirely sure where one of us is amiss.

-- Steve --

Infinite MAN_force
10-13-2008, 12:11 AM
Ed Johnson was Booger's replacement and with him starting all of last year we were "decent" against the run... and we won 12 games. and if you remember, the offense was often the problem last year during the regular season, due to injuries to the recieving core. In the playoffs freeney was out and the lack of qb pressure killed us. Really the run defense was never a major issue last year.

we lost two key DT's early in the season, which is why I tend to think "personel problem" as opposed to blaming the coach/scheme.

Perspective here, we are the winningest team in the NFL since Dungy showed up.... and have won a superbowl. Make that probably two superbowls if it wasn't for vandershank blowing that kick against the steelers.

oh yeah, did anyone see the game today? :D things might be ok after all.