PDA

View Full Version : Whats Next to Come?



MillerTime
10-04-2008, 09:23 PM
I am really happy with what Bird has done this offseason:


Traded JO and Jawai for Ford, Baston, Rasho and Hibbert
Traded Diogu and Bayless for Rush, Jack, and McRoberts
Invited Croshere to camp
Traded Tinsley for Hunter and Atkins (though its still speculation, I think the/a deal will do down in a few days).


Everything Bird has mentioned in the beginning of the offseason he has accomplished. The only issue which Bird hasnt fixed is our PF situation. Even Bird has admitted that our low post scoring isnt very good. I dont think this will be fixed this offseason. But its obvious to everyone that our PF situation needs to be addressed pretty soon. With Tinsley almost gone and Hunter nad Atkins in (I know its rumors, but it looks promising), we freed up more cap space for 2010.

Every "elite" team has a great PG, swingman and big man. For example, look at Pistons (Billups, Price/Hamilton, Sheed), Spurs (Parker, Manu, Duncan), and Suns had that (with Nash, Marion, Amare). I think the only exceptions are Lakers and Boston, and coincidenctly they both made the finals last season. When you have 3 all-stars on your team, most of the time, you're going to be successful.

So far, I consider our star players to be Ford and Granger (and maybe Dunleavy). We clearly need a PF. We really cant trade for a great PF because it will mostly likely cost us Granger and/or Ford. I dont think we'll be able to draft one next season, because realisticaly we'll be around the .500 mark and thats about a 16th or 17th pick, which is hard to pick up a good big man that late in the draft. I think our only option is to sign one. Who do you guys think we can sign and will fit JOBs system?

Next season Boozer and Charlie V become available. Boozer will porbably be expensive and Bird is going to be hesitant to sign long term deals (after having JO and Tinsley). Charlie V might be a more viable option, but hes not as good as Boozer. If we wait till the 2010 FA, we can make a move for Amare or Bosh, if they decide to leave their teams.

What are you guys' thoughts?

CableKC
10-04-2008, 09:33 PM
I am really happy with what Bird has done this offseason:


Traded JO and Jawai for Ford, Baston, Rasho and Hibbert
Traded Diogu and Bayless for Rush, Jack, and McRoberts
Invited Croshere to camp
Traded Tinsley for Hunter and Atkins (though its still speculation, I think the/a deal will do down in a few days).


Everything Bird has mentioned in the beginning of the offseason he has accomplished. The only issue which Bird hasnt fixed is our PF situation. Even Bird has admitted that our low post scoring isnt very good. I dont think this will be fixed this offseason. But its obvious to everyone that our PF situation needs to be addressed pretty soon. With Tinsley almost gone and Hunter nad Atkins in (I know its rumors, but it looks promising), we freed up more cap space for 2010.

Every "elite" team has a great PG, swingman and big man. For example, look at Pistons (Billups, Price/Hamilton, Sheed), Spurs (Parker, Manu, Duncan), and Suns had that (with Nash, Marion, Amare). I think the only exceptions are Lakers and Boston, and coincidenctly they both made the finals last season. When you have 3 all-stars on your team, most of the time, you're going to be successful.

So far, I consider our star players to be Ford and Granger (and maybe Dunleavy). We clearly need a PF. We really cant trade for a great PF because it will mostly likely cost us Granger and/or Ford. I dont think we'll be able to draft one next season, because realisticaly we'll be around the .500 mark and thats about a 16th or 17th pick, which is hard to pick up a good big man that late in the draft. I think our only option is to sign one. Who do you guys think we can sign and will fit JOBs system?

Next season Boozer and Charlie V become available. Boozer will porbably be expensive and Bird is going to be hesitant to sign long term deals (after having JO and Tinsley). Charlie V might be a more viable option, but hes not as good as Boozer. If we wait till the 2010 FA, we can make a move for Amare or Bosh, if they decide to leave their teams.

What are you guys' thoughts?
We do not have the Salary Cap $$$ to sign any top tier FA ( see count55's many posts regarding this ).

Although it's nice to daydream of top tier Big Men FAs like Boozer.......short of trading Murphy ( which I doubt happens next season )....you should be more reaslistic and start waking up to the realities of resigning either Foster or Rasho, trying to make a run at rotational Big Men FAs like Channing Frye ( my realistic Big Man FA that I think that we could afford ), or even doing next to nothing if we take on Hunter to fill our rotational Big Man needs for the next 2-3 seasons.

The reality is that we do not have the Salary Cap flexibility to sign Top Tier FAs if we intend to resign Granger and Jack. At most, we would have the MLE.

Speed
10-04-2008, 09:35 PM
Phillie pulled Brand out of a hat, I wish Boozer would come out of Larry's hat, but I don't think the money will be there. I'd almost rather play Murphy than get Villeneuva, I'm not a big fan.

The PF thing is intriguing since Obie basically admitted this week that his idea of a PF is a guy who can hit the 3 and run the floor, that is kind of Murphy.

I just don't know that you have to have a low post scoring PF, I think a low post scoring big man period would be helpful. Maybe within 3 years that is Hibbert.

What would really help this team is a very very good defensive and physical PF to control the boards and the be an intimidator.

Yes, I'm still looking for the next Dale Davis.

Doddage
10-04-2008, 10:08 PM
It's amazing how grim the team's prospects looked not but half a year ago, dealing with the injuries of our best players. We thought we'd be stuck with them for the duration of their contracts. Bird and Morway have done a great job of setting the groundwork to restore this team to respectable status, as well as create a product that the fans can be proud of. This, ultimately, should lead to the resurgence of fans to the Fieldhouse over the course of the next few years.

Hopefully us that have endured the toils of the team in its dark days will be able to enjoy the team once it returns to the state that we all are familiar with.

BlueNGold
10-04-2008, 10:21 PM
There's so much focus on the PF position as being a weakness. Sure, it's the biggest weakness on this year's team. However, consider this:

Last year we had a backup PG playing big minutes. We really didn't have a true C. We didn't have a SG. We didn't have any size except for Smokin' David Harrison. We had terrible perimeter D. How much of this has been shored up?

IMO, the many, many holes that have been filled or mostly filled are significantly bigger plusses than the minus (or is it a plus?) of losing a part-time PF who didn't practice, disrupted the rotations the last several years by coming in and out of the line-up, cost 1/3 of the payroll, is soft and has always been soft, shoots for a poor FG% and didn't even like being here.

Considering Jawai may be out of the league soon, the trade is looking even better.

MillerTime
10-04-2008, 10:46 PM
Since this is Bird's first year of having full control of the Pacers, and the great job he has done, do you guys belive that if we can win anything over 41 games, Bird can win Executive of the Year? I cant name another GM that has made so many significant moves to put their team in a better position than Bird and Morway have

d_c
10-04-2008, 10:51 PM
I cant name another GM that has made so many significant moves to put their team in a better position than Bird and Morway have

Danny Ainge called and wants to show you his Executive of the Year award.

Kevin Pritchard also called and wants to remind you that he's assembled a team with what I would consider has a fairly decent amount of talent.

EDIT: If the Pacers are significantly improved this season, Bird will definitely be an EOY candidate. That said, going from 36 to 41 wins isn't all that significant and it's been accomplished in this league quite often.

CableKC
10-04-2008, 11:20 PM
Phillie pulled Brand out of a hat, I wish Boozer would come out of Larry's hat, but I don't think the money will be there. I'd almost rather play Murphy than get Villeneuva, I'm not a big fan.

The PF thing is intriguing since Obie basically admitted this week that his idea of a PF is a guy who can hit the 3 and run the floor, that is kind of Murphy.

I just don't know that you have to have a low post scoring PF, I think a low post scoring big man period would be helpful. Maybe within 3 years that is Hibbert.

What would really help this team is a very very good defensive and physical PF to control the boards and the be an intimidator.


Yes, I'm still looking for the next Dale Davis.
I think that we do need one to balence out our offense so that we aren't so much of a "one trick pony" when it comes to our offense.

Our Starting PF likely is Murphy over the next 2 seasons.....and ( at the very least ) will be getting significant minutes at the PF position. The need for a Low-Post scorer / Rebounding Intimidator is when the opposing team buckles down on our perimeter offense and we can't effectively score.

I'm hoping that Hibbert will be that Low-Post scoring presense in a year or two. If not...then I hope that we would either draft one in the 2009-2010 draft or acquire one over the next 2 seasons.

MillerTime
10-04-2008, 11:31 PM
I think that we do need one to balence out our offense so that we aren't so much of a "one trick pony" when it comes to our offense.

Our Starting PF likely is Murphy over the next 2 seasons.....and ( at the very least ) will be getting significant minutes at the PF position. The need for a Low-Post scorer / Rebounding Intimidator is when the opposing team buckles down on our perimeter offense and we can't effectively score.

I'm hoping that Hibbert will be that Low-Post scoring presense in a year or two. If not...then I hope that we would either draft one in the 2009-2010 draft or acquire one over the next 2 seasons.

If we win about 41 games, we'll pick around 17th. I dont think you can get a quality big man picking that late in the draft. I think we'll get more of a role player, probably not a starter

BlueNGold
10-04-2008, 11:42 PM
I think the bigger need will turn out to be interior defense, toughness and shot-blocking at the PF position (Dale Davis qualities), not low post scoring at either C or PF.

Hibbert was able to convert over Oden and will be able to convert over other good defenders IMO. Like one GTown poster said, Hibbert's strength is offense and he has the size and skills to pass out of the post and go down low and convert. Some proof was seen in his matchup with Oden. Oden is one of the best shot-blockers I have ever seen due to his unique combination of defensive demeanor, length, strength and leaping ability. Sure, he was a freshman, but he is also a freak. He truly challenges anything within 15 feet of the rim...yet Hibbert could take the pounding and the length and convert OVER him.

Yes, our problem will be when a PF like KG or Wallace has to be guarded on the defensive end. Yes, all teams have a problem with those guys, but none of our likely starters can even slow those guys down.

Doddage
10-04-2008, 11:47 PM
If we win about 41 games, we'll pick around 17th. I dont think you can get a quality big man picking that late in the draft. I think we'll get more of a role player, probably not a starter
:jermaineoneal:

You can argue that he wasn't what we had hoped, but he was still a quality big man at the very least.

MillerTime
10-04-2008, 11:49 PM
:jermaineoneal:

You can argue that he wasn't what we expected, but he was still a quality big man at the very least.

ya but more often than none, you dont get a quality big man. JO also took about 4 years to develop.

GrangerRanger
10-04-2008, 11:56 PM
Jermaine came in, in his first year and nearly averaged a double double for us. That's a quality big man. Since when is 1 year - 4 years?

MillerTime
10-04-2008, 11:59 PM
I think the bigger need will turn out to be interior defense, toughness and shot-blocking at the PF position (Dale Davis qualities), not low post scoring at either C or PF.

Hibbert was able to convert over Oden and will be able to convert over other good defenders IMO. Like one GTown poster said, Hibbert's strength is offense and he has the size and skills to pass out of the post and go down low and convert. Some proof was seen in his matchup with Oden. Oden is one of the best shot-blockers I have ever seen due to his unique combination of defensive demeanor, length, strength and leaping ability. Sure, he was a freshman, but he is also a freak. He truly challenges anything within 15 feet of the rim...yet Hibbert could take the pounding and the length and convert OVER him.

Yes, our problem will be when a PF like KG or Wallace has to be guarded on the defensive end. Yes, all teams have a problem with those guys, but none of our likely starters can even slow those guys down.

What we need is not only interior defense (we have that in Foster and Rasho). I think CableKC put it the best. We basically cant rely on our ourside shooting because if a defense finds a way to stop that, we're basically screwed. We need a variety of offensive weapons

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 12:02 AM
Jermaine came in, in his first year and nearly averaged a double double for us. That's a quality big man. Since when is 1 year - 4 years?

We didnt draft JO. He was drafted by Portland, and came to Indy after his 4th season in the league. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jermaine_oneal/career_stats.html It took JO a while to develop, that could be possibly due to the fact that he came straight out of high school

Anthem
10-05-2008, 12:05 AM
Jermaine came in, in his first year and nearly averaged a double double for us. That's a quality big man. Since when is 1 year - 4 years?

4 years in Portland.

Doddage
10-05-2008, 12:10 AM
He could have meant JO's first year in Indy. JO, with his minutes almost tripled from his Portland days, gave us the production he did.

Speed
10-05-2008, 12:12 AM
I am wistful for the days when it was the 4th quarter and we could freeze a team out from scoring for 3 or 4 minutes stretches. That would be nice. Or maybe just be able to make some really tough stops at the end of a game. Take pride in it, have a swagger about it. Thats what I want. A team good enough defensively to break the other teams spirit in crunch time.

Defensive mental toughness is what I'm talking about.

If I didn't hate Detroit all of these years, I would love Detroit.

-----

Guys I've always liked in the league who have some of this... Renaldo Balkman, Reggie Evans, James Posey, Shane Battier, a not crazy Ron Ron, Bruce Bowen, Billups, Tayshawn Prince, Ben Wallace pre Chicago, Rondo, and you know a guy I have hope for Jarret Jack. Give me some of these guys and you will win some games.

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 12:13 AM
He could have meant JO's first year in Indy. JO, with his minutes almost tripled from his Portland days, gave us the production he did.

ya JO did, but I think the discussion started from the fact that its difficult to get a big man around the 17th pick in the draft and have him come into the league to become a quality big man in his first season (which JO played in Portland)

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 12:16 AM
I am wistful for the days when it was the 4th quarter and we could freeze a team out from scoring for 3 or 4 minutes stretches. That would be nice. Or maybe just be able to make some really tough stops at the end of a game. Take pride in it, have a swagger about it. Thats what I want. A team good enough defensively to break the other teams spirit in crunch time.

Defensive mental toughness is what I'm talking about.

If I didn't hate Detroit all of these years, I would love Detroit.

I agree with you on this point. All that starts from defence and pride for winning. JOB is emphasizing a lot of dee this season. Our defensive lineup (at the end of games, or just to close out games), would probably be:

Jack
Rush
Granger
Foster
Rasho/Hibbert (depends on how to develops)

GrangerRanger
10-05-2008, 12:28 AM
i don't think you can make the case that it took him 4 years to develop. He had hardly any PT and a bunch of guys that shot the ball. He showed signs in his limited PT of the JO we saw in his first year with us.

One can make the case that we traded for a quality big man.

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 12:33 AM
i don't think you can make the case that it took him 4 years to develop. He had hardly any PT and a bunch of guys that shot the ball. He showed signs in his limited PT of the JO we saw in his first year with us.

One can make the case that we traded for a quality big man.

the reason he got limite PT was because he was ready for big mins. In his last season, he started a few games, and he showed that he was ready. Before that he just wasnt ready for the competition the NBA had to offer

pwee31
10-05-2008, 01:39 AM
I personally think Marion will be the guy the Pacers go after next year.

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 02:17 AM
I personally think Marion will be the guy the Pacers go after next year.

I would absolutely love that. Hes one of my favorite players. He would fit JOBs system perfect as a PF. But the question remains, can we afford him? Hes making $17.8 million right now in his last season. Obviously that overpaying him, but what is his true value? I think its around $14 or $15 million, which is still probably still too much for us to offer him (considering hes a free agent next summer). If Miami does a sign and trade with us, who would they want that we're willing to give up? We dont want to give up Granger, Rush, or Ford (or I wouldnt think). Would Miami be considering Daniels, Williams, Murphy, Foster, or Rasho?

I remember a few months ago reading about how Bird contacted Miami about Marion, but no deals were put on the table, it was just talk.

Ive posted many trade ideas for Marion before, but Miami is most likely going to try to hand us Banks, which we already have Ford, Jack, Diener, and possilby Atkins now. Theres mentions that a 3rd team might be involved in the IND/DEN trade...maybe Bird can work something out to get Marion here...

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=26~1002~2200~2749~1013~1024~21 65~510&teams=14~14~14~14~14~7~11~11&te=&cash= We give up Daniels, Tinsley, Murphy, and Diener (and possibly a first rounder) for Banks and Marion

or more likely, we give up Dunleavy, Tinsley, and Murphy and get back Marion and Banks http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=26~1002~1708~1013~1024~2165~51 0&teams=14~14~14~14~7~11~11&te=&cash=

I think the 2nd one is more likely, considering the season that Dunleavy just had.

Could leave us with:
Ford/Jack/Diener/Banks (too many PGs)
Daniels/Rush - Daniels will start until Rush is NBA ready
Granger/Williams
Marion/Foster
Rasho/Hibbert

This is just too good to be true

duke dynamite
10-05-2008, 02:28 AM
Here is what I think:

What is next you ask? I see Wednesday creep along twards us ever so faster and the preseason begins.

The preseason ends with some pretty interesting trips to 38th St. and Ft. Wayne respectively. We then trim our roster down.

Once that is said and done, we start the regular season. During this time, O'Brien toys around with the lineup to see who is the best we have to take on Detroit in the season opener.

From then we play Boston, Phoenix, and so on...

I'm sorry to sound like a downer or anything, but I feel like it is better to focus on the task and hand and access the talent that we have currently before we worry about what is going to come a year down the road and so on. This team needs to establish an identity with the pieces of the puzzle we have now before trying to put edge pieces in the middle of the darn thing. Where will we be then? A mess.

Go Pacers, I so can't wait for Wednesday.

Kemo
10-05-2008, 06:07 AM
I still think Roy Hibbert is going to be the steal of the draft...

I see him being a MONSTER once he develops AGGRESSIVENESS to the rim .. if he can do that..and develop a killer instinct.. he gonna be a very good center in the mold of a mix of Olajuwan/Robert Parrish rolled into one with the little things and moves he does...I think he is going to be a high I.Q center .. with his ability to pass and his scoring with both hands .
He has a very nice hookshot that's ambidextrous as well..
I think the majority of the players will have a tough time getting anything in the paint .. without Roy being right up on them ready to stuff em.. I see him improve each year with that .. maybe not immediately .. I think he will be quite alright coming in , but I think he will show some flashes of brilliance on the defensive end throughout this season ..

Offensively : I think realisticly a good season for Roy would mostly pick up by the second half of the season , hopefully we will see Roy fighting his way and EARNING at LEAST 18-22 mpg ..Scoring between 8 and 12 points per game , 8-12 rebounds , 1.90 bpg..

I think his minutes will also be dependant on any trades that are made with any of our other bigs, that may go down this year , and any injuries.


If he could strive to avg. a double double by the end of his rookie season , (and I think he will put in the effort) ..I see his working hard paying off for him , and it will show in his awarded mpg , and what he does on the court...

I would say if all that is occurring.. The he is developing ahead of schedule for a Big Man .. and that we could expect good things from Hibbert in the years to come.....

I really have a good feeling about him...

Let's hope my hunch is right ..


I feel the same good feeling about T.J. Ford ....

I think he will have a HUGE impact on our team , and boost everyone's talent level who plays around him... Especially with the semi-dormant talent we have ...
I know alot of people might not see it , but although we aren't stacked with all-stars... I think we have some in the making , and some , that just need to be around and play good team ball, and actually DEVELOPE an excellent chemistry... we will be deadly...

One need not look further than Detroit ... being a perfect example ...

I think we are going to be the sleeper team in the east...



Hey I gotta dream can't I ? lol

MillerTime
10-05-2008, 06:23 AM
I still think Roy Hibbert is going to be the steal of the draft...

I see him being a MONSTER once he develops AGGRESSIVENESS to the rim .. if he can do that..and develop a killer instinct.. he gonna be a very good center in the mold of a mix of Olajuwan/Robert Parrish rolled into one with the little things and moves he does...I think he is going to be a high I.Q center .. with his ability to pass and his scoring with both hands .
He has a very nice hookshot that's ambidextrous as well..
I think the majority of the players will have a tough time getting anything in the paint .. without Roy being right up on them ready to stuff em.. I see him improve each year with that .. maybe not immediately .. I think he will be quite alright coming in , but I think he will show some flashes of brilliance on the defensive end throughout this season ..

Offensively : I think realisticly a good season for Roy would mostly pick up by the second half of the season , hopefully we will see Roy fighting his way and EARNING at LEAST 18-22 mpg ..Scoring between 8 and 12 points per game , 8-12 rebounds , 1.90 bpg..

I think his minutes will also be dependant on any trades that are made with any of our other bigs, that may go down this year , and any injuries.


If he could strive to avg. a double double by the end of his rookie season , (and I think he will put in the effort) ..I see his working hard paying off for him , and it will show in his awarded mpg , and what he does on the court...

I would say if all that is occurring.. The he is developing ahead of schedule for a Big Man .. and that we could expect good things from Hibbert in the years to come.....

I really have a good feeling about him...

Let's hope my hunch is right ..


I feel the same good feeling about T.J. Ford ....

I think he will have a HUGE impact on our team , and boost everyone's talent level who plays around him... Especially with the semi-dormant talent we have ...
I know alot of people might not see it , but although we aren't stacked with all-stars... I think we have some in the making , and some , that just need to be around and play good team ball, and actually DEVELOPE an excellent chemistry... we will be deadly...

One need not look further than Detroit ... being a perfect example ...

I think we are going to be the sleeper team in the east...



Hey I gotta dream can't I ? lol

I think you're a little too optimistic about Hibbert. Personally, I dont see him averaging neara double double in his rookie season, especially not in 22 mins.

Ford will have a big impact on our team. With the way he likes to play and the way JOB wants us to play, I can see Ford averaging around 16 points and about 9 assists

Kemo
10-05-2008, 06:56 AM
nah.. I am saying a GOOD season for Roy would be that... not what I think he will get ... I am just saying that is the highest I think his ceiling will be his rookie year..

even an 9 point 7 reb would not be to far from possible.... hell he could surprise us all and make us all look stupid far exceeding what impact we are projecting him to have...

I just err towards him doing good..

Speed
10-05-2008, 07:57 AM
On Roy, I would be surprised if he plays more than 15 minutes a game this season, barring big man injuries.

Don't be disappointed if that is the case.

He's a rookie big man with some veterans in front of him. Big Roy seems to be really working at it, it just may take awhile, it does for almost all big men.

I just think we need to managed expectations a little with the two rookies.

Justin Tyme
10-05-2008, 08:43 AM
The PF thing is intriguing since Obie basically admitted this week that his idea of a PF is a guy who can hit the 3 and run the floor, that is kind of Murphy.

JO'B isn't the long term solution as coach. He's a stop gap to get the Pacers over the hump coach with one more season on his contract. What he wants in a PF isn't necessarily in the long term plans of the Pacers.

I don't expect to see the Pacers get a DD type PF this season. Maybe next year thru a trade or the draft, but if thru the draft the player won't be an immediate impact player for a # of years... after JO'B is gone.

JayRedd
10-05-2008, 10:19 PM
[Roy] gonna be a very good center in the mold of a mix of Olajuwan/Robert Parrish rolled into one with the little things and moves he does...

You and Seth should start a club.

rexnom
10-05-2008, 10:55 PM
JO'B isn't the long term solution as coach. He's a stop gap to get the Pacers over the hump coach with one more season on his contract. What he wants in a PF isn't necessarily in the long term plans of the Pacers.

I don't expect to see the Pacers get a DD type PF this season. Maybe next year thru a trade or the draft, but if thru the draft the player won't be an immediate impact player for a # of years... after JO'B is gone.
It doesn't really matter who we get for PF, considering we've got Dream and Pippen surrounding the mystery 4 in the front court.