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Peck
09-30-2008, 04:15 AM
Well as you may remember from earlier this summer I said I wanted to do a series of posts venting about everything from the past so that by the time the season came around I would never feel the need to talk about them again.

I made a total of two of those posts. One about the brawl and one about Artest.

After that I just dropped it. Oh I tried a few times but to be frank with you it felt more like I was forcing it than anything else. You see the bitterness if prtty much gone.

So while I really truely have about a 100,000 word post in me about Donnie Walsh and his tenure here I just don't have the heart to do it anymore. Frankly I actually feel very sorry for Donnie. I know it did not end the way he wanted it to end here in Indiana and right now it seems as though he is trying to force himself into his job in N.Y. From what we have read it seems to me like this just won't last that long.

Then throw in the health scare and well let's just say that I really don't have the heart to go at his time here. I will just say it is in the past and hopefully we can move on.

Brad Miller was another topic I wanted to talk about but then Brad goes and get's busted for pot and well, let's be honest the last thing we need on this team is any more off court distractions. I still say it was a horrible horrible trade (yes, it was a trade) but I just don't have the energy to argue with those who want to disagree.

I really wanted to post something about how I thought the 61 win season was really a fluke, but at the end of the day it was still a 61 win season and the only proof I would offer to rebutt that would be to offer my opinion of how it was a house of cards built on a foundation of sand. But again that would just be my opinion, the statistical facts would prove me wrong. So again I don't have the energy to argue with people who disagree with me.

So I actaully had an "odd thoughts" post all worked up in my head tonight to start the new season with. I wanted to talk about players and who we thought would do what and how often they would do it. I still plan on doing that post this week.

However as I sat down to type this I perused the star to see the new Pacers articles.

Lo & Behold the first article I come across was "Bird says team poised to fill leadership void"
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080930/SPORTS04/809300383

As I'm reading this article along comes this quote.

Just because you make the most money doesn't mean you're the leader," Bird said last month. "A lot of guys didn't want to step on toes. Not only here, but other places I've been at. They'd say, the guy makes the most money, that means he's the leader. That's not the case. The leader comes from the guy doing the right thing, the guy that's going to be there every day at practice, the guy that plays through pain without complaining. They do the necessary things to prepare themselves.

All of a sudden I developed Energy Legs as though I had drank Rawberry to actually go at the Jermaine O'Neal posse'.

Ok, maybe I'm reading what I want to read here but then maybe I'm not.

To me Larry Bird is actually saying that Jermaine O'Neal did not prepare himself and would not play through pain. But wait, I can already hear the keyboards clacking somewhere up in Chicago and down in Cincinatti. Jermaine O'Neal shot freethrows left handed after getting his shoulder seperated and we have video that shows his leg bent backwards and he came back and played.

Yes, yes we have all seen that.

But let's look a little deeper about leadership and how that plays into what we are talking about here.

Nobody can deny either of the above, also no one can deny that many times over the years he has come back and played sooner than expected and often times sooner than he should have.

However what also can't be denied is that the seasons he did that in the Pacers were either considered legitimate playoff teams or a couple of years high playoff contenders.

But over the past two years when the team has not been so good, the returns have not been so fast. The time away has been more.

The old saying "it's easy to lead in good times but true leaders emerge from bad times" comes to my mind here.

Again, I may just be reading what I want to, but I think the real true shot across the bow at O'Neal comes from the part about not being there every day at practice.

We never really found out if he came to practices last season or not, did we?

If he did not, then does everybody realize that he never practiced with Troy Murphy or Mike Dunleavy. That would be one half of the remaining starting five that he never practiced with. Is it any wonder why the team never gelled?

Rick Carlisle did not make Jermaine O'Neal practice his last season here, this comes from both J.O. and Carlisle btw.

How can you lead the team when you don't practice?????

Now some are ready and willing to give J.O. a pass over the past couple of seasons for not wanting to be here because, (how was that put?) oh yea, nobody wanted to be here.

My answer to that is bull.

When you are the franchise player, even when you don't deserve to be, then all of the stones fall on you. You are the one who has to lift up everybody around you and charge the hill.

Are you allowed to be depressed, down, down hearted and down trodden? Well we are all human so to a certain extent in your personnal time yes, yes you can be.

But when the clock is ticking no matter what you feel you better be there everyday with bells on.

If not, then step aside and let someone else be the leader. It doesn't matter if you are talking the NBA, NASA, NASCAR or the NRA. If you are the leader then you have to want to be there, if not everything else is null and void.

That is just my minor speal on his leadership abilities or lack thereof.

Really and truely at the end of the day I always felt two things about him.

1. He was the most self centered player I have ever seen in a Pacers uniform.

2. He was vastly over rated.

Now of course as I always have in previous years I will again do the right thing.

I was a fan of Dale Davis, the player he was traded for. So feel free to throw anything that I type out the window and discard it as the mad ravings of a "fanboy" who lost his player. I will understand.

My point of view though is differant on this. I never blamed O'neal for the trade, I knew from a friend of mine that Dale had demanded a trade from Walsh was not returning to the team no matter what. So, Walsh got the best that he could from the situation.

I tried my best to like the guy, but from day 1 with the club he made it very very tough on me.

He spoke at great length of all of the personal awards he coveted and was going to win and then oh by the way he wanted to help the team win.

Unnerving for me to say the least but he was young and excited so maybe we can over look that.

Then came the worst thing that could have ever happened. Reggie Miller designated J.O. as the new franchise player. He hadn't earned it and frankly was not mature enough to handle it. But he went on to have a productive year and over the summer even went to the rookie free agent camp. I remember setting on the sidelines watching him play against players who would never be in the NBA and think to myself "maybe he does get it" I mean he did not have to be there so he will always get kudos for that.

But then came the next season and this is where I will probably have to say that my Dale Davis type player love comes into play, but I have never seen a power forward so offended by power players in my life as J.O. was becoming more and more apt to complain about physical play.

Then came the infamous Pacers Pistons brawl. No, not the one you are thinking of. This it the one where Jermaine cheap shot Corlis Williamson in the air and the Big Nasty used J.O.'s head a backboard and threw the ball off of it.

Then came the most comical thing I have ever seen in my life. J.O. acting like wanted to fight any and everybody but actually fighting nobody but poor old Tree Rollins who was our asstant coach at the time. Ben Wallace stood on the floor totally perplexed as to what to do. As my friend Twes said at the time "Ben had never been hit in the face with a purse before so he didn't know how to react".

This just kept going and going and going till finally Jermaine left the floor.

This was one of many such episodes where Jermaine decided to act tough and indignant but truely not do anything. There is nothing wrong with just walking away, this is actually the best thing to do. Make them pay at the free throw line is the best policy. But if you are going to want to play the tough guy then by all means, please do. Reggie Miller would go after guards or centers. I've seen him chase Matt Gieger down the floor as well as Derrick Coleman.

However one of the best things that ever happened to J.O. came at the end of that season. Zeke took J.O. to the side at the end of the year and told him to not work on his game and be a better player but to go away and be a better man. J.O. seemed to actually respond to this a little and came back a slightly differant player.

There are however two things that I have never blamed J.O. for and actually feel that he got the raw deal in both instances.

1. The Pacers trading away Brad Miller and not replacing him with a real center who had talent to play. Not Scot Pollard who for whatever reason just never fit in with Carlisle's style of play and certainly not Jeff Foster who was a not a power player by any sense of the immagination.

2. The Pacers firing Thomas after giving O'Neal the contract extension. The way that was handled was really rotten by the Pacers, IMO. I'm not saying they should not have fired Thomas but the way it was handeled was poor.

I could go on and on and on but I guess I will just wrap it up by saying this.

I have never seen a player who was only a 20 & 10 guy be labled a franchise player more than J.O. was.

Yes, yes he was 3rd in MVP balloting one year. Well Peja was 2nd that year so that tells me all I need to know about the balloting process for that year.

I've been ridiculed because I have always said that Jermaine in his prime was really not any better than Shareef Abdur Rahim in his prime. I still hold to that thought. That is not saying that Shareef is a bad player, far from it. But he is not a franchise player either.

But, IMO, neither was Jermaine O'Neal.

Ok, I know this is just the beginning of this. Feel free to flame away at me.

I can already feel the fires burning now.:)

Mourning
09-30-2008, 05:22 AM
:uhoh: :shudder: :peek:

rexnom
09-30-2008, 08:25 AM
For the record:
2003-2004 MVP ballot was
1. KG
2. TD
3. JO
4. Peja

BillS
09-30-2008, 09:01 AM
Meh.

The only ones left from all of that are the Simons and Bird.

I'm feeling like I'd rather look forward than back.

Unclebuck
09-30-2008, 09:16 AM
I think JO not being able to practice for basically the past two years - really destroyed team chemistry. I don't doubt JO was injured nor do I suggest that he should have practiced while injured. But the fact of the matter was he didn't practice. So chemistry could never be established, plus while no teammate is going to be critical of another who isn't ptracticing it has to have a negative impact on team morale. I know if I were building a team I would be looking for - the leader, the best player being the best practice player on the team - the value of that cannot be overstated.

Doug - I think he couldn't be the leader because he was injured all the time. The leader has to be there almost every day. Just like you can't be an absentee parent, you can't be an absentee leader

Doug
09-30-2008, 09:17 AM
IMO...

JO is a "good kid".

He knows he is supposed to be the team leader.

But he just didn't know how to do it.

He tries, but doesn't get it right.

Real leaders don't have to think about what they need to do to be a leader. They just do it.

JO isn't a leader, but was forced to try to play that role. But he just ended up looking like a kid dressing up in daddy's suit and hat pretending to work.

count55
09-30-2008, 09:19 AM
Meh.

The only ones left from all of that are the Simons and Bird.

I'm feeling like I'd rather look forward than back.

I figured if I waited long enough, somebody would more or less say what I felt more succinctly than I would.

count55
09-30-2008, 09:26 AM
I remember a quote about Buck Williams after he went to Portland, and they became a finals team:

"Buck Williams taught the Blazers that practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect."

I forget who it wrote it, and I don't doubt that it was "stolen" from some other source, but that was the context I heard it in, and it always stuck with me. This doesn't have anything really to do with JO, per se, but I was reminded of it by Uncle Buck's post...(on two levels, I guess).

EDIT: I guess that was a Vince Lombardi quote.

Unclebuck
09-30-2008, 09:34 AM
Shouldn't the title of this thread be off season wrap up - instead of post season wrap up - afterall the Pacers haven't seen the post season in two years now

Anthem
09-30-2008, 10:11 AM
But wait, I can already hear the keyboards clacking somewhere up in Chicago and down in Cincinatti.
Two Ns, dude. Cin-cin-nati. :D

Anyway, I'll let you have the last word here. I disagree, as you know, but I really don't see anything new in this post (I'll admit I glazed over after a while). We're just re-hashing the same arguments over and over. So this one's all yours. I'm looking forward to the new season.

Roaming Gnome
09-30-2008, 10:14 AM
Peck, I'm glad that you finally took ownership of that Shareef Adur-Rahim business. What, it's been 3 or 4 years that you have been trying to pin that on me. Whew.

As for Jermaine...That's all water under the bridge now.

count55
09-30-2008, 10:14 AM
Two Ns, dude. Cin-cin-natti. :D


Two N's

One T, dude

Cin-cin-na-ti

:blush:

(And, strictly speaking, it's 3 N's.) ;):p

Major Cold
09-30-2008, 10:17 AM
I have always felt that JO felt entitled. I think with Reggie and management the notion of him being the leader was evident. But it was how he responded. He rarely took over the team in game situations like Reggie and Mark. He emulated Rick's leadership style instead of taking the initiative and being proactive. Whenever JO displayed the leader card it was reactive. That is not influential leadership.

If JO had another credible leader like Reggie had in Mark, things might have been different.

I am not making excuses for JO. But I know that it was not entirely his fault. But to be a leader on this team he had to rise above the muck and the mire and be a leader.

Which leads me to this question.

Who in the last 6 years was able to be led by any leader?

Los Angeles
09-30-2008, 10:29 AM
Jermaine O'Neal will forever represent the face of the franchise during the franchise's most perilous hours.

He was the "leader" during several straight years of downhill spiral and we didn't stop until we hit bottom and nearly every player, coach and staff member was replaced to underwhelming results.

McKeyFan
09-30-2008, 10:42 AM
I think JO not being able to practice for basically the past two years - really destroyed team chemistry. I don't doubt JO was injured nor do I suggest that he should have practiced while injured. But the fact of the matter was he didn't practice. So chemistry could never be established, plus while no teammate is going to be critical of another who isn't ptracticing it has to have a negative impact on team morale. I know if I were building a team I would be looking for - the leader, the best player being the best practice player on the team - the value of that cannot be overstated.

Doug - I think he couldn't be the leader because he was injured all the time. The leader has to be there almost every day. Just like you can't be an absentee parent, you can't be an absentee leader

I think an important question is: Did he attend practice?

Not being able to participate due to injury is acceptable. Just deciding not to show up is unacceptable . . . if you expect to be the leader.

Speed
09-30-2008, 10:55 AM
Nice work. I never knew DD demanded out. I pretty much agree with every word.

Anthem
09-30-2008, 11:06 AM
One T, dude
:laugh: That's hilariously embarrassing. I fixed it in my post, but it's too late now. I know how to spell it, really. I was just reading off his post instead of thinking for myself. Honest!

See if I ever listen to Peck again. :grumble:

Roaming Gnome
09-30-2008, 11:10 AM
:laugh: That's hilariously embarrassing. I fixed it in my post, but it's too late now. I know how to spell it, really. I was just reading off his post instead of thinking for myself. Honest!

See if I ever listen to Peck again. :grumble:

:footinmou

RamBo_Lamar
09-30-2008, 11:31 AM
Who in the last 6 years was able to be led by any leader?


This is an interesting point. I can certainly think of a few players within the
last 6 years who didn't possess the prerequisite attention span to be led.

Alpolloloco
09-30-2008, 11:46 AM
Well the original plan was to make Jasikevicius the leader ... too bad he wasn't accepted by the JO gang!

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 12:14 PM
I don't think that Lombardi or Gen. Patten would have been able to lead this team of jerks and punks, so I'm not sure this is a fair criteria to evaluate anyone.

Did JO fail at leadership? Clearly.

I'm looking forward to having Hibbert and Rush as the leam leaders in the next couple of seasons. They each seem to have more natural leadership traits.

Let's not fool ourselves, Reggie wasn't much of a leader either. But we got away with it because Mark Jackson WAS a great leader.

The Pacers have been bad at matching "best player" and "natural leader" for a long time.

Dr. Goldfoot
09-30-2008, 12:16 PM
That comment by Bird is confusing. I always thought they only said JO was the leader because he was the max contract guy. It's interesting that he now echoes my sentiment from that era. Even after Reggie "handed over the reigns", JO was never the sole leader. Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, Austin Croshere, Jeff Foster, Mike Dunleavy & Darrell Armstrong were all part of a committee of leaders over that time ( which included JO just as sporadically as those mentioned).

Look back at those I listed and think about this team over that time span and tell me those guys didn't led this team just as much as JO did (some even more). I'm not commenting on where they were leading or how they led just that they did. Jackson & Artest had no problem getting guys on board. Crosh, Foster, Dun, & DA led by example and used their experience in the league as credibility. I thought Tins (along w/ MDJ) was the leader of this team the first half of last season.

Hicks
09-30-2008, 12:18 PM
Well the original plan was to make Jasikevicius the leader ... too bad he wasn't accepted by the JO gang!

If he had possessed more NBA talent it might have worked.

Justin Tyme
09-30-2008, 12:34 PM
Well the original plan was to make Jasikevicius the leader ... too bad he wasn't accepted by the JO gang!


LOL! He has a hard enough time being accepted as the leader at home with his wife let alone being the accepted the leader of the Pacers. Come to think of it, he's not with either now... ex-Pacer, ex-husband.

Hicks
09-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Cheap shot! :rolleyes:

docpaul
09-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Peck, as much as I typically enjoy your posts and perspective, this whole series strikes me as a bit self indulgent.

Can't you exorcise your Pacer evil humors in some other way than this message board? It doesn't seem like many other people are still holding onto the past as you seem to be. :)

JMHO, no offense meant.

Bball
09-30-2008, 01:50 PM
I'm just glad JO's gone so we can finally move forward. I suppose you could argue I'm seeing what I want to see and reading what I want to read, but my take is that he's gone for the same reasons I wanted him gone.

Better still, Walsh is gone too. This team was stuck in a rut and going nowhere fast (except out of town) and Walsh was way past being what this team needed.

Either PR is doing a great job or else the 'two headed monster' of Morway and Bird is several times more in sync than the multi-headed monster we had before (and if it's not then at least we're still one step closer to getting that behind us too!). We couldn't get on with the next phase of the front office and it's vision and abilities until we cleared house of the old guard.

As for the thoughts we didn't get JO the help he needed... That's something that all parties should've considered before inking him to that albatross of a contract. When you sign a face of the franchise contract as a power forward is it too much to expect you actually have some 'power' in your game?

JO was never a leader but he stood in the way of leadership developing because his ego couldn't accept that he wasn't what his contract said he was. He got that contract on 'potential' and then promptly peaked. Had he been able to take a step back and just realized that an almost 20-10 player who needed the whole offense built around him to a point that it was a detriment to the rest of the team, while he shot somewhere around 45% as a 'go to' star 'power' forward, wasn't 'dominating', then maybe he could've salvaged his career and this team. He couldn't....

Prima Donna is the best descriptive term I can think of for my perception of JO.

As it is, he's ego is Toronto's problem now. He can take his 'dominance' and 'All Star' aspirations there and meanwhile maybe we can finally build a team. I certainly like our chances now.

Peck
09-30-2008, 01:51 PM
For the record:
2003-2004 MVP ballot was
1. KG
2. TD
3. JO
4. Peja

I stand corrected. Still doesn't change my opinion all that much though.

BTW, love Madmen.

Peck
09-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Peck, as much as I typically enjoy your posts and perspective, this whole series strikes me as a bit self indulgent.

Can't you exorcise your Pacer evil humors in some other way than this message board? It doesn't seem like many other people are still holding onto the past as you seem to be. :)

JMHO, no offense meant.

Self indulgent? Absolutely.

I'll be honest with you, I did not really feel it when I was typing this last night and you can tell. In fact I got up today and actually regretted even makeing this post. As Anthem said, we've been here before, many times.

Like I said the bitterness is all but gone, in truth I'm with Bill here and am ready to move forward. But this was, I guess, a last gasp at trying to fire at the person who I felt was the second biggest problem for the past 7 years.

However I have to ask you this, what better place than a message board filled with friends who talk about the team I love would I go to exorcise my Pacers evils?

Seems like this is the perfect place.

But I will admit, it is self indulgent. :)

Doug
09-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Peck, as much as I typically enjoy your posts and perspective, this whole series strikes me as a bit self indulgent.

Can't you exorcise your Pacer evil humors in some other way than this message board? It doesn't seem like many other people are still holding onto the past as you seem to be. :)

JMHO, no offense meant.

While we all know Peck is more than capable of speaking for himself, I'll jump in anyway.

I view these posts kinda like when you take all of the stuff associated with your old girlfriend and burn them so you can move on.

In other words, we'll visit these topics once more, then it's behind 'us' and we can move on.





ps. Peck, that was NOT a trade! :-)

Unclebuck
09-30-2008, 02:13 PM
While we all know Peck is more than capable of speaking for himself, I'll jump in anyway.

I view these posts kinda like when you take all of the stuff associated with your old girlfriend and burn them so you can move on.

In other words, we'll visit these topics once more, then it's behind 'us' and we can move on.





ps. Peck, that was NOT a trade! :-)

LOL - no it was not a trade, you are correct sir.

Seriously though, JO will be talked about for years. Reggie is still discussed, a lot of things from the past are discussed. I see nothing wrong with that. If we put a moratorium on discussing anything from the past - this forum would probably just die a slow death. The past is good

Putnam
09-30-2008, 02:16 PM
The past is good


I thought we weren't supposed to express our political views on PD anymore.

Tom White
09-30-2008, 02:19 PM
Peck, as much as I typically enjoy your posts and perspective, this whole series strikes me as a bit self indulgent.

Can't you exorcise your Pacer evil humors in some other way than this message board? It doesn't seem like many other people are still holding onto the past as you seem to be. :)

JMHO, no offense meant.

Personally, I think that Peck has been around long enough, and contributed enough, that he can be allowed his once-in-a-great-while rant. Besides that, he will probably sleep and eat better now that he has done this post.

Believe me that is a blessing. You don't want to see what a sleep-deprived, under-nourished Peck would be writing on this board! It's too tragic for words.

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 02:46 PM
How was it not a trade? Letting him walk away and to get nothing in return was better than taking back Pollard (and his awful contract) in return.

:stirthepo

Anthem
09-30-2008, 03:37 PM
Well the original plan was to make Jasikevicius the leader ... too bad he wasn't able to play in the NBA.
Hey, fixed that for ya.

The dude doesn't even play in the league any more, let alone for the Pacers. Let it die.

Doug
09-30-2008, 03:37 PM
How was it not a trade? Letting him walk away and to get nothing in return was better than taking back Pollard (and his awful contract) in return.

:stirthepo

What! You've got to be kidding me! They didn't want Brad, at least not for that long for those $$$$. They didn't say 'We want Pollard! We'll give you a resigned Brad for him!". They just accommodated Brad via sign-and-trade, but they had to take back Scot for that to work. If they didn't do the sign-and-trade, they would have been screwing Brad, and all we need is yet another reasons for high-profile free agents to avoid us! We'll screw them out of millions eventually! Pretty soon we'd be left with 8 players from the local 'Y' and Bowser and boomer taking turns playing point. Then we're in Vegas!

Next you'll be saying that Dale was better than Al! Ha! Dale's offensive game makes Foster's looks smooth.

If only we'd had more players like McKey. Selfless, team players who'd do anything the coach would ask!




For the humor impaired ----> :-)

Anthem
09-30-2008, 03:39 PM
How was it not a trade? Letting him walk away and to get nothing in return was better than taking back Pollard (and his awful contract) in return.

:stirthepo
If that was the situation, then maybe. But getting Pollard and Turko allowed us to get Mercer off the books early, meaning that we basically paid Pollard instead of Mercer. And since we were low on big men, and Mercer was by all accounts not a great guy in the locker room and certainly not on the court, that's actually a pretty good "trade."

But I still don't consider it a trade.

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 03:56 PM
There were similar ways to trade Mercer, it didn't have to be THIS particular S&T. Mercer wasn't awful, and of the list of "bad lockerroom guys" on the 2000s-era Pacers, he probably doesn't even hit the top-ten.

Bball
09-30-2008, 04:14 PM
How wonderful it is to hear all this bickering and discussion relating to players who are gone, gone, gone! That is a sign we're really moving forward on the court whether any of us are living in the past or not.

The future's so bright... I gotta wear shades :cool:

At least now we have a chance at a basketball future...:dance:

-Bball

Since86
09-30-2008, 04:15 PM
I think hell just froze over.

Pacers4Life
09-30-2008, 05:59 PM
Two N's

One T, dude

Cin-cin-na-ti

:blush:

(And, strictly speaking, it's 3 N's.) ;)

I got waaay too much satisfaction out of you correcting him correcting someone else. Beautiful.

I couldn't care less about any of this covered here in this post (sry peck) and agree with the masses... It is definitely time to move/look forward.

Anthem
09-30-2008, 09:47 PM
There were similar ways to trade Mercer, it didn't have to be THIS particular S&T. Mercer wasn't awful, and of the list of "bad lockerroom guys" on the 2000s-era Pacers, he probably doesn't even hit the top-ten.
Yeah, because Mercer got so much burn after leaving the Pacers...

Nobody else wanted him; the only way to move him was to package him with hot young talent. Turko ended up being that guy.

Basically we let Brad walk and traded Mercer for Pollard. That's not a bad trade.

docpaul
09-30-2008, 10:06 PM
Self indulgent? Absolutely.

I'll be honest with you, I did not really feel it when I was typing this last night and you can tell. In fact I got up today and actually regretted even makeing this post. As Anthem said, we've been here before, many times.

Like I said the bitterness is all but gone, in truth I'm with Bill here and am ready to move forward. But this was, I guess, a last gasp at trying to fire at the person who I felt was the second biggest problem for the past 7 years.

However I have to ask you this, what better place than a message board filled with friends who talk about the team I love would I go to exorcise my Pacers evils?

Seems like this is the perfect place.

But I will admit, it is self indulgent. :)

These "exorcism" posts kind of remind me of those shows on VH1 where the celebrities of the past fester on how they were screwed by the system, and just seem to want to be miserable. :)

I think to myself: "Man, you were successful in your previous life... time to dust off and get over it!"

Like I said, I really enjoy what you bring to the board, but I just wanted to share some tough love and ask you to move on.

I'm happy to grumble about new issues, but Brad Miller?! Ron Artest?!

:)

ChicagoJ
10-01-2008, 10:30 AM
Basically we let Brad walk and traded Mercer for Pollard. That's not a bad trade.

Yes it is. We took back Pollard. We would have been better off without that move.

Mercer: bad contract, questionable attitude, could play, helped hold team together at the end of the 2002-03 collapse
Pollard: crazy-bad contract, complete goof-off/ sideshow, couldn't play