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View Full Version : Stein's Preseason Power Rankings - Pacers #25



JayRedd
09-29-2008, 04:35 PM
Let the anger begin.

Marc Stein
ESPN.com


#25 - Pacers (36-46): Maybe we should be higher on a team that finished one game shy of the playoffs. Just can't shake the feeling that Indy (a) came up way short on the O'Neal deal and (b) still lacks the right mix to play Obie's way.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/powerranking?season=2009&week=-1&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

Major Cold
09-29-2008, 04:40 PM
I am not surprised.

Kuq_e_Zi91
09-29-2008, 04:41 PM
Rather projected to fail and succeed than projected to succeed and fail.

Roaming Gnome
09-29-2008, 04:56 PM
Oh well, we were suppose to be 28th last year,

OakMoses
09-29-2008, 05:08 PM
It's a bit hard to believe that the Bulls are really the 16th best team in the NBA. They were a bad team last year and the only improvement they've made is Derrick Rose who won't be great this year.

Kstat
09-29-2008, 05:25 PM
don't like Detroit's pre-season ranking, but the comment on them.

Lord Helmet
09-29-2008, 05:40 PM
:kings: :hawks: :clippers: :bobcats:

I'm not high on the Pacers and I'm keeping expectations low for this season, but I don't understand how we're lower than these teams.

Oh well.

Well, unless Mitch Richmond, Spud Webb, Ron Harper, and Jordan decides to make yet another comeback, I don't see these teams higher than us.

duke dynamite
09-29-2008, 05:58 PM
:kings: :hawks: :clippers: :bobcats:

I'm not high on the Pacers and I'm keeping expectations low for this season, but I don't understand how we're lower than these teams.

Oh well.

Well, unless Mitch Richmond, Spud Webb, Ron Harper, and Jordan decides to make yet another comeback, I don't see these teams higher than us.

Agreed.

FoxSports.com stated that with Larry Brown coaching the 'Cats, they are only projected to win 4 to 7 more games this year than they did last.

ChicagoJ
09-29-2008, 06:01 PM
I'm surprised we are that high. You don't trade away your superstar, even if he's been injured a lot, without taking a tumble in a preseason poll. Maybe this team is better on the court than on paper, but nobody outside of PacerNation views these moves as "immediate improvment" so they'll have to get on the court and surprise people by playing 0.500 ball for a while if they want to move up.

ChicagoJ
09-29-2008, 06:03 PM
Agreed.

FoxSports.com stated that with Larry Brown coaching the 'Cats, they are only projected to win 4 to 7 more games this year than they did last.

What if the Bobcats get everyone healthy AND have Mr. One-year Turnaround in charge? They could be a playoff team.

avoidingtheclowns
09-29-2008, 06:18 PM
pacers ranked low, marc stein blames JO deal

Major Cold
09-29-2008, 06:42 PM
folks what changes have indicated to the media that we should be better than said teams? If we make the playoffs it will be harder than it was this past season.

McKeyFan
09-29-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm a bit taken back that he thinks we didn't do well in the trade.

Personally (I may get shellacked for this), I think we almost fleeced them.

JO is perennially injured, perennially unclutch, and by many reports, a perrenial mediocre leader.

Pacer Nation was withering on the vine. This trade has rejuvenated the fan base. Tinsley is no longer a necessary evil.

I'm pretty dang happy with the trade.

duke dynamite
09-29-2008, 07:09 PM
What if the Bobcats get everyone healthy AND have Mr. One-year Turnaround in charge? They could be a playoff team.

Anything's possible.

Doddage
09-29-2008, 07:17 PM
Yeah, how did we come up short in the JO trade? JO's value was plummeting to the point where I would have done him for TJ straight up, but we got all that stuff on top of it. I do not agree with him on that.

MillerTime
09-29-2008, 07:18 PM
I dont think we came up way short on the O'Neal deal...We got a starting PG, an expirer and a first rounder...I dont think we came up short, I think Bird and Morway did a good job with that deal

rexnom
09-29-2008, 07:19 PM
I like this. Don't underestimate the "no one believed in us" factor.

jcouts
09-29-2008, 07:35 PM
At least we know that Mark Stein never watches the Pacers games...

That's the only way that anyone could ever conclusively state that we came up short in trading JO away, IMO.

BlueNGold
09-29-2008, 07:40 PM
I'm good with it. I don't think this team needs the motivation, however.

Anyway, it's worth quite a few wins during the regular season because teams will let up on us. A W is a W and I'm not going to bicker about it.

As for our record last year, we were an average team with JO at half mast...and a average one without him. The reality is, with our superstar our winning percentage over 42 games was .452. Without JO we were .425. That is not totally insignificant, but considering we added so many other pieces including a legit C in Rasho, two mature rookies - one who played on the NCAA champs, and two solid experienced players to fill in at our weakest position...which is also probably the most important position (IMO), it's hard to see us being a worse team.

No anger here at all...

kester99
09-29-2008, 07:49 PM
Stein is not an analyst even worth talking about...his preseason ranking is the only thing he puts any thought into. It's invariably fairly wrong, then his "power ranking" formula commences to modify his picks through the season. You were #25? You won two games? Hey, you're #24. He's an accountant with an ESPN badge.

Anthem
09-29-2008, 08:35 PM
:kings: :hawks: :clippers: :bobcats:

I'm not high on the Pacers and I'm keeping expectations low for this season, but I don't understand how we're lower than these teams.
Atlanta made a pretty impressive surge after picking up Bibby midseason. They got our playoff spot, remember? It's not unreasonable to think they'll still be pretty solid, even if Greece did poach their sixth man.

Midcoasted
09-29-2008, 11:24 PM
JOs perimeter defense will be missed, yea right. Maybe 3 years ago, but the last 2 years he was almost non existent. Maybe that was due to his injuries or his fear of getting injured, but I think Hibbert will be a way better Interior defender becuase he is a true C. JO was a PF playing C.

We are definitely a .500 team, I think we could surprise people this year. Last year we won over .40, to think we can't get .50-.60 this year is crazy because i think we did improve that much.

Championship contender, maybe a draft or two away. But we could make it to the second round if we make it as the 4 or 5 seed.

Hey I can hope can't I?

jeffg-body
09-29-2008, 11:46 PM
I have to agree with most that we got the better end of the JO trade. Getting TJ alone would have satisfied a lot of the Pacer Nation, but getting Rasho and the rest of the pieces was a great deal to me. It helps financially and brings a boatload of a new and refreshing positive vibe to the fans. Now if we can get JT out of here for a descent trade I think that TPTB has had an excellent off season.

DisplacedKnick
09-30-2008, 07:01 AM
I could see putting you in 15-20. 25 seems goofy.

bellisimo
09-30-2008, 07:34 AM
I could see putting you in 15-20. 25 seems goofy.

well considering how ESPN is owned by Disney...I'd say it all makes sense...

LoneGranger33
09-30-2008, 07:42 AM
Clippers got Camby and Davis at the expense of Maggette (Brand too, but not considering him because of his no-show status last season). I think assuming they'll be top 25 isn't out of the question.

count55
09-30-2008, 09:01 AM
Well, since previous number 1 rankings for the Pacers afforded them no banners or rings, I'll place the appropriate weight on this particular ranking.

Jonathan
09-30-2008, 09:21 AM
I do not care about pre season rankings at all. ESPN probably took the Detroit Tigers to win the world series this year. Heck, I drafted Randy Moss & Ryan Grant in fantasy football and that go me to a 1-3 start. Public Enemy Put it Dont Believe the Hype

pacergod2
09-30-2008, 10:14 AM
I love kester99's assessment of Marc Stein being an accountant with an ESPN badge. That is terrific. I am an accountant so maybe I find it a touch too amusing. Marc Stein doesn't know his ear hole from his a$$hole. He is a beat writer, not an analyst from experience. Look at him. I would be shocked if he even played in pick up games in his life. The guy does get the inside scoop a lot, but i would rather listen to what Greg Anthony says any day of the week. Oh and while I am at it, talking about people who don't know basketball, I wish they would get rid of Stephen A. Smith from NBA Shootaround as well.

Speaking of pickup games... imagine the pickup games at ESPN.

Mourning
09-30-2008, 10:37 AM
well considering how ESPN is owned by Disney...I'd say it all makes sense...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

OakMoses
09-30-2008, 11:55 AM
Atlanta made a pretty impressive surge after picking up Bibby midseason. They got our playoff spot, remember? It's not unreasonable to think they'll still be pretty solid, even if Greece did poach their sixth man.

Actually, the Hawks were 15-17 with Bibby, and 3-5 in April. That's hardly impressive. They were good in the playoffs, but I think that was do more to some lackadaisical play by Boston rather than anything great on their part. Predicting things like this is silly, but Josh Smith really seems like the kind of guy who may be quite a bit less motivated now that he's got a big contract.

I still think we're the 3rd best team in our division.

NuffSaid
09-30-2008, 12:32 PM
I'm surprised we are that high. You don't trade away your superstar, even if he's been injured a lot, without taking a tumble in a preseason poll. Maybe this team is better on the court than on paper, but nobody outside of PacerNation views these moves as "immediate improvment" so they'll have to get on the court and surprise people by playing 0.500 ball for a while if they want to move up.
Agreed.

Frankly, I'd rather expectations be low. This way should the team actually perform well those who didn't believe can start jumping onboard this band wagon. :D

HC
09-30-2008, 02:02 PM
I was reading some power ranking on ESPN this morning, and I came across another thing I don't get. For Indiana they said that JO had ruined this team's chemistry, just as TJ had ruined Toronto's chemistry. At what point did TJ ruin that teams chemistry? Have I missed something? From everything I have heard TJ is a great locker room guy, and just wants to play where he is wanted.

!Pacers-Fan!
09-30-2008, 02:10 PM
shud've been 28.

2minutes twowa
09-30-2008, 03:44 PM
"Way short" on the JO deal? Really? I can understand someone thinking Toronto got the better end of the deal, but WAY short? TJ, Rasho, Hibbert for JO is not coming up way short.

JayRedd
09-30-2008, 03:51 PM
I was reading some power ranking on ESPN this morning, and I came across another thing I don't get. For Indiana they said that JO had ruined this team's chemistry, just as TJ had ruined Toronto's chemistry. At what point did TJ ruin that teams chemistry? Have I missed something? From everything I have heard TJ is a great locker room guy, and just wants to play where he is wanted.

The basic rap on him in Toronto and Milwaukee is that he can't handle coming off the bench and that he pouts and generally doesn't play up to par if he has to be the back-up. He's a heart-on-his-sleeve type of dude and, as much as that helps him when he's happy, it becomes very apparent to the entire team -- and very counterproductive -- when he's not happy.

Last Spring in Toronto it got to the point where it was becoming such an issue for the team that Jose Calderon asked Coach Sam Mitchell to come off the bench even though he had been absolutely flourishing for months just so TJ would stop sulking and actually be mentally capable of helping the team make the Playoffs instead of being a dead weight on the court and locker room. Here's a bunch of the Toronto stuff from last season. Things played out similarly in Milwaukee but I don't have the time to scroll the archives.

Dave Feschuk
Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/404839


Raptors' Ford May Be Wearing Out His Welcome


JE Skeets
Ball Don't Lie

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/TJ-Ford-loses-his-cool-gets-tossed?urn=nba,72246


65-65, start of the fourth quarter. In comes T.J. Ford for Jose Calderon. Ford's next five minutes: missed shot, turnover, turnover, defensive foul, offensive foul, Napoleon complex!, tech, tech, ejection, sigh.

I've been one of Ford's biggest supporters and, some would say, apologist in the blogosphere, but I think it's safe to say that TJ is as good as gone from Toronto after this season. His play over the last few weeks has been so erratic that I'm not even sure giving him the starting PG duties back (or the return of Chris Bosh) would steer him right. I love his lil' man spirit, but this nonsense is embarrassing.


Doug Smith
Toronto Star

http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/2008/04/biggest-game-of.html


"He has been better as a starter and Jose has proven he can come off the bench and give us something," [says Raptor Coach Sam Mitchell]. "To me, why would I do that? At least, I know if T.J. struggles, I’ve got Jose who last game played well. But if we do that and Jose struggles, where do I go?”

Translation: We know T.J. has proven to play like a pooch if we bring him off the bench and if he’s going to do anything at all, it has to be as a starter, even if it means only playing him five minutes a half.


Dave Feschuk
Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/309937


If [T.J.'s] his body language in the couple of games before last night had been translated into words, you'd have shielded your kids' ears. Tuesday in Orlando, non-plussed he'd been hooked from the game, Ford made a 20-foot walk to the bench look more like a procession to the electric chair. It wasn't the only outward expression of his discontent.

"T.J.'s a good guy. He's a good person," said Darrick Martin, Ford's fellow point guard. "He's just working through some issues and he'll be fine."

Perhaps drama was inevitable. It was said in this space and others that Toronto's point-guard platoon worked last season and at the beginning of this one largely because Ford was the starter. His ego, it was surmised here, wouldn't take well to being a No. 2. And that wasn't necessarily a knock against him.

Still, it'll be difficult to upturn the batting order now, because Ford isn't necessarily the guy the Raptors are worried about ticking off. Calderon, playing awfully well in the first five, is heading into a summer in which he'll be a presumably-coveted restricted free agent, and the Raptors have repeatedly asserted their desire to keep him. Ford, locked up through 2011, might have to live with the status quo.

The Texan, who often carries himself on the court with scowling swagger that belies his locker-room sense of humour, hasn't had an easy season. He was taken off the floor in Atlanta on a stretcher after a dastardly December fall. Born with a narrowing of the spine that puts him at greater risk for spinal injuries than an average person, the scare had him contemplating retirement before he committed to a return to the court.

Last night he played 22 largely scowl-free minutes, scoring 13 points while racking up five assists and three turnovers. He acknowledged his behaviour was drawing the wrong kind of attention from certain superiors, but he didn't exactly apologize for it.

"I guess that's the knock against me, man," said Ford. "I think I'm an emotional person. But I think people look at me like I have a problem sometimes, when I really don't. I'm fine."



Michael Grange
From Deep

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080327.WBwbbasketball20080327125659/WBStory/WBwbbasketball/

These were Mitchell's comments right after Jose asked to come off the bench. Quite the veiled criticism of TJ in that third sentence.


“It's different make-ups,” was Mitchell's answer. “You can't compare individuals. Some people can [come off the bench], some people can't. Some people can do it more easily than others. It just depends on your makeup. We're just fortunate that we've got guys on our team that puts everybody ahead of their own personal goals. It doesn't tell me that Jose doesn't want to play and doesn't want to start; it tells me he understands that with 12 games to go, we have to do something different.”

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 04:02 PM
At some level, this is probably true of 100% of all the players in the league though. They all want to play and they are all used to being the star of their HS/ college teams.

Just imagine if Ford had said, "yeah, I'm okay coming off the bench, as long as I get paid" but still played in a 'funk'.

We in internet-fan-land have a funny view of team chemistry sometimes. This is a business, first and foremost, and that drives team chemistry more than we give it credit for.

HC
09-30-2008, 04:03 PM
The basic rap on him in Toronto and Milwaukee is that he can't handle coming off the bench and that he pouts and generally doesn't play up to par if he has to be the back-up. He's a heart-on-his-sleeve type of dude and, as much as that helps him when he's happy, it becomes very apparent to the entire team -- and very counterproductive -- when he's not happy.

Last Spring in Toronto it got to the point where it was becoming such an issue for the team that Jose Calderon asked Coach Sam Mitchell to come off the bench even though he had been absolutely flourishing for months just so TJ would stop sulking and actually be mentally capable of helping the team make the Playoffs instead of being a dead weight on the court and locker room. Here's a bunch of the Toronto stuff from last season. Things played out similarly in Milwaukee but I don't have the time to scroll the archives.

Dave Feschuk
Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/404839




JE Skeets
Ball Don't Lie

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/TJ-Ford-loses-his-cool-gets-tossed?urn=nba,72246



Doug Smith
Toronto Star

http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/2008/04/biggest-game-of.html



Dave Feschuk
Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/309937





Michael Grange
From Deep

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080327.WBwbbasketball20080327125659/WBStory/WBwbbasketball/

These were Mitchell's comments right after Jose asked to come off the bench. Quite the veiled criticism of TJ in that third sentence.

Wow, what are the Pacers thinking then putting it out in the media that TJ will be competing for the starting job? If the guy has this kind of track record, and you don't plan on making him compete for the starting job, why bring him into this fragile situation at all?

JayRedd
09-30-2008, 04:22 PM
At some level, this is probably true of 100% of all the players in the league though.

Not Jose, apparently. Manu's cool with it. Barbosa's more dynamic than Raja Bell and don't seem to mind. Mike Miller was fine playing behind both Battier and Eddie Jones with more talent. Lamar Odom is talking about doing it this year. Your boy Detlef never cared. Bobby Jackson did it for years. Ben Gordon was okay for at least one year.

I'm not implying that guys shouldn't want to start -- including TJ. And being willing to come off the bench does take a level of maturity that few 25 year olds are going to have.

I was just pointing out that TJ's sulking was the story around Raptorland for a solid 2-3 months to close out last season since HCP seemed to be unaware of the continual powderkeg scenario that played out up in America Jr.

count55
09-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Not Jose, apparently. Manu's cool with it. Barbosa's more dynamic than Raja Bell and don't seem to mind. Mike Miller was fine playing behind both Battier and Eddie Jones with more talent. Lamar Odom is talking about doing it this year. Your boy Detlef never cared. Bobby Jackson did it for years. Ben Gordon was okay for at least one year.

I'm not implying that guys shouldn't want to start -- including TJ. And being willing to come off the bench does take a level of maturity that few 25 year olds are going to have.

I was just pointing out that TJ's sulking was the story around Raptorland for a solid 2-3 months to close out last season since HCP seemed to be unaware of the continual powderkeg scenario that played out up in America Jr.

Jose was OK, but only on a limited basis. Didn't he basically indicate to Toronto that he wouldn't re-sign unless the job was going to be his? (Not that that's not a valid POV. It's just that he's not quite as selfless as your comment seems to imply.)

And Detlef did have a problem with it. He gagged when Brown talked about moving him back to sixth man.

rexnom
09-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Not Jose, apparently. Manu's cool with it. Barbosa's more dynamic than Raja Bell and don't seem to mind. Mike Miller was fine playing behind both Battier and Eddie Jones with more talent. Lamar Odom is talking about doing it this year. Your boy Detlef never cared. Bobby Jackson did it for years. Ben Gordon was okay for at least one year.

I'm not implying that guys shouldn't want to start -- including TJ. And being willing to come off the bench does take a level of maturity that few 25 year olds are going to have.

I was just pointing out that TJ's sulking was the story around Raptorland for a solid 2-3 months to close out last season since HCP seemed to be unaware of the continual powderkeg scenario that played out up in America Jr.
Your use of Ben Gordon was excellent.

dohman
09-30-2008, 10:53 PM
He is so right. We were almost a playoff team last year without JO. Now we added two battle tested PG's. We turned our worst position into our best.

We also added another shooter and a BIG man that will hopefully rebound and keep people out of the paint. I do believe we will make the playoffs this year.

Midcoasted
10-03-2008, 02:30 AM
He is so right. We were almost a playoff team last year without JO. Now we added two battle tested PG's. We turned our worst position into our best.

We also added another shooter and a BIG man that will hopefully rebound and keep people out of the paint. I do believe we will make the playoffs this year.

This is what I've been screaming all along. But you are missing something, we got two BIG men. I really thought our way we had been utilizing the European market was bad. Like how we passed over eith Parker or Ginoblie, I can't remeber which, maybe both.

Now that Donny is gone Larry can really do his thing. I think we will see the Pacers in a much better position for years to come. Larry was out scouting. For some reason I think Donny and Larry just had conflicting ideas, and it was like a two headed monster that couldn't function as one.

I think Larry proved he is ready to do something, I would grade our draft as one of the best in the NBA. Maybe some analyst wouldn't right now, but over team it will show.

Rush, Hibbert, Jack, Rasho and Ford. I just hope this negative hype isn't right about Ford. I think he is a good person, I don't think we have a Tinsley in the making. But having Jack makes me feel optomistic and i could be cool with Diener as the backup so i ain't sweatin any negative speculation.

Go Pacers. I just can't wait till Larry gets a couple more drafts under his belt.

Think we may have the one of the deepest talent pool for wing. I think Granger's defense will improve, along with all of his other game. If Dunlevy scores anymore he is due for an Allstar game, and adding Rush to the equation gives us a whole other element. Losing Williams sucks because the guy had all the talent. But i'm just hoping we could move Tinsley and Williams in a package deal so we could get another C or PF. I think Baston could play some SF if needed, but I'm hoping those three stay healthy all year. If we get any decent BIG for Tinsley and Williams, then I think we are set.

A guy like Brand would be a dream but noone in there right mind would give us him without Danny and there is no way.