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MillerTime
09-26-2008, 10:44 AM
Top 20 PGs according to CBS Sports. They have Rondo and Fisher, but no mention of TJ Ford http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10993373

Evan_The_Dude
09-26-2008, 07:24 PM
I stopped reading at Monta Ellis. How is he one of the top 20 point guards if he's not a point guard?

ChicagoJ
09-27-2008, 12:35 AM
If Tinsley were happy, healthy, and motivated, he could be pretty high on this list. The state of NBA PGs has improved slightly over the past few years, but there are still a number of "starting" NBA PGs that will be on the hotseat if their GM/ coach could actually find someone capable of playing the position instead of some of these guys that just aren't any good.

It will be interesting to see if either Ford or Jack can play their way up to the Top twenty this season. I'm not sure. I think we'll be in the PG market again soon.

EDIT - I think, at age of 61 (or whatever age he is today. :D ), Mark Jackson might still be a top-ten PG. Its not like he's lost any quickness. And unlike 1/2 of these guys, he can find the open man and run an offense.

dohman
09-27-2008, 02:13 PM
If Tinsley were happy, healthy, and motivated, he could be pretty high on this list. The state of NBA PGs has improved slightly over the past few years, but there are still a number of "starting" NBA PGs that will be on the hotseat if their GM/ coach could actually find someone capable of playing the position instead of some of these guys that just aren't any good.

It will be interesting to see if either Ford or Jack can play their way up to the Top twenty this season. I'm not sure. I think we'll be in the PG market again soon.

EDIT - I think, at age of 61 (or whatever age he is today. :D ), Mark Jackson might still be a top-ten PG. Its not like he's lost any quickness. And unlike 1/2 of these guys, he can find the open man and run an offense.


The tinsley who takes 20 shots in a overtime game or the tinsley that distributes the ball?

ChicagoJ
09-29-2008, 11:55 AM
The tinsley who takes 20 shots in a overtime game or the tinsley that distributes the ball?

The happy, healthy, motivated Tinsley distributes the ball. The self-doubting, sulking Tinsley dominates the ball.

Hicks
09-29-2008, 12:23 PM
I don't think the healthy, motivated Tinsley exists anymore. Jim O'Brien WANTED to keep him coming in as a new coach, threw his total support on Jamaal, and Jamaal still had a problem.

Bball
09-29-2008, 12:33 PM
The happy, healthy, motivated Tinsley distributes the ball.

And like the bigfoot in the freezer that turned out to be a costume, the myth continues without substance and with little more than personal stories to prove/disprove his existence.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
09-29-2008, 01:35 PM
I don't think the healthy, motivated Tinsley exists anymore. Jim O'Brien WANTED to keep him coming in as a new coach, threw his total support on Jamaal, and Jamaal still had a problem.

I do. But its certainly enough to make you wonder how much of a change Jamaal needs in order to be happy and productive. Then again, during the honeymoon period last season he was playing at a very high level. Too bad for both Jamaal and the team that a trade could not have been worked out then.

Buy-high, sell-low is not a good way to manage a basketball team.

There must be something in his life, off-court, that keeps bringing him down. Which is a shame, because talent-wise he belongs near the top of this list. Maybe when he gets a chance to start over in a new city he can overcome those demons. He made from the garbage truck to the GED to DI to the pros, so I wouldn't put anything past him if he can find motivation again.

We were warned, when his mother passed away, of this risk. Its sad to see it come true. In many ways, he's still in the same funk as he was in the Spring of 2003.

HC
09-29-2008, 02:14 PM
To compile a list of the top 20 pgs in the league and not include Ford is pretty absurd imo. He is the fastest player out there everytime he steps onto the floor.

OakMoses
09-29-2008, 02:18 PM
I know it's not the best of all possible measures, but Ford was ranked in the high 20's in PER last season. That ranking included all positions, not just PG's. To not include him in the top 20 is silly.

Here are some starting PG's that Ford is better than: Mo Williams, Luke Ridnour, Jameer Nelson, Mike Bibby, Raymond Felton, Whoever starts in NY, MIA, MIN, OKC, and DEN, Rafer Alston, Jason Kidd, Mike Conley, Steve Blake, Derek Fisher, and Beno Udrih.

I'm being conservative and I counted 16 PG's I'd pick Ford over without much trouble. Unless there's some fantastic backups that I'm not thinking of, that should put him in the top 15 easy. Even within the top group there's a few guys that aren't demonstrably better than him: Rondo, Ellis, Hinrich/Rose, Devin Harris.

Ford gets forgotten because he was overshadowed by Calderon last year, but when he's fully healthy he's a borderline top 10 PG. He's got some flaws in his game, that's for sure, but he brings a lot to the table.

Infinite MAN_force
09-29-2008, 04:42 PM
To compile a list of the top 20 pgs in the league and not include Ford is pretty absurd imo. He is the fastest player out there everytime he steps onto the floor.

I believe Chad Ford had him ranked 6th overall among pgs based on his PER rankings. One spot after Calderon.

spreedom
09-30-2008, 04:14 PM
I know it's not the best of all possible measures, but Ford was ranked in the high 20's in PER last season. That ranking included all positions, not just PG's. To not include him in the top 20 is silly.

Here are some starting PG's that Ford is better than: Mo Williams, Luke Ridnour, Jameer Nelson, Mike Bibby, Raymond Felton, Whoever starts in NY, MIA, MIN, OKC, and DEN, Rafer Alston, Jason Kidd, Mike Conley, Steve Blake, Derek Fisher, and Beno Udrih.

I'm being conservative and I counted 16 PG's I'd pick Ford over without much trouble. Unless there's some fantastic backups that I'm not thinking of, that should put him in the top 15 easy. Even within the top group there's a few guys that aren't demonstrably better than him: Rondo, Ellis, Hinrich/Rose, Devin Harris.

Ford gets forgotten because he was overshadowed by Calderon last year, but when he's fully healthy he's a borderline top 10 PG. He's got some flaws in his game, that's for sure, but he brings a lot to the table.


I was more or less with you until there.... IMO Kidd is still a top-5 or 6 PG...

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 04:23 PM
I was more or less with you until there.... IMO Kidd is still a top-5 or 6 PG...

I'll bet Conley is a top-5 by the end of the season.

JayRedd
09-30-2008, 04:26 PM
I'll bet Conley is a top-5 by the end of the season.

What are we betting?

ChicagoJ
09-30-2008, 05:14 PM
Cheese sandwich?

spreedom
09-30-2008, 05:18 PM
I'll bet Conley is a top-5 by the end of the season.


I'll take that. I bet he's closer to trade bait with Mayo and Gay in town, along with Crittenton and Lowry breathing down his neck....

OakMoses
09-30-2008, 05:19 PM
I was more or less with you until there.... IMO Kidd is still a top-5 or 6 PG...


I'll bet Conley is a top-5 by the end of the season.

Top 5 means he's in the conversation with Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Andre Miller, etc. There's no way Conley even breaks into the top 10 this year. I like the kid and think he's going to be very good. If you said he'd be a top 5 pg in 2 years, I might agree with you.

As for Kidd, the Mavs were 16-13 with Kidd. They were 35-18 with Devin Harris. Kidd's PER was 14th among PG's last season. He shot below 40% from the field and barely averaged 10 points per game. His defense is not anywhere close to what it used to be. He's on a fast decline. It's about time we see him for what he is now, an average starting PG.

Anthem
09-30-2008, 09:34 PM
What are we betting?
A million dollars.

dohman
09-30-2008, 11:00 PM
It is nice to have a good point guard again. Wait its nice to have 2 good pointguards.

We went from the worst PG situation in the league to one of the best. I am very happy with the offseason.

Anthem
09-30-2008, 11:56 PM
We went from the worst PG situation in the league to one of the best. I am very happy with the offseason.
How do you figure? We're solidly average and maybe a little above average, but not "one of the best" unless by that you mean "better than half the teams in the league." I can think of at least 10 teams with better PG rotations than us.

And that's me being hopeful that Ford is going to be somebody and be healthy.

spreedom
10-01-2008, 10:00 AM
Top 5 means he's in the conversation with Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Andre Miller, etc. There's no way Conley even breaks into the top 10 this year. I like the kid and think he's going to be very good. If you said he'd be a top 5 pg in 2 years, I might agree with you.

As for Kidd, the Mavs were 16-13 with Kidd. They were 35-18 with Devin Harris. Kidd's PER was 14th among PG's last season. He shot below 40% from the field and barely averaged 10 points per game. His defense is not anywhere close to what it used to be. He's on a fast decline. It's about time we see him for what he is now, an average starting PG.


Kidd is also still one of the best rebounding guards in the league (and of all-time). He still plays very good defense -- he can't guard Chris Paul, but who can? -- and will likely average 9+ assist a game along with over 40% 3pfg... the Mavs' poor play with him at the helm is due to extremely poor coaching, not their point guard. Nowitzki and Cuban have both publicly stated that Avery lost the team and didn't coach to his players' strengths.

As far as being a top-5 or 6 point guard... I'll definitely concede that Paul and Deron Williams are the two best in the league right now, but Kidd probably isn't too much further down that list.

OakMoses
10-01-2008, 10:32 AM
I don't think Kidd is a bad PG. I just don't think he's great anymore. When I say that he's an average starter, I mean that on any given night he's somewhere in the 11-20 range when compared to other NBA PG's. I do think that Dallas was stupid to trade Harris for him. Also, he's a career 33.7% 3pt shooter. His 40+% in Dallas last year was an aberration based on an extremely small sample. I don't think there's any one in the league who'd call Kidd a good 3 point shooter. He's not a bad 3pt shooter either. He's a lot like Tinsley in that area. He makes a few, but shoots way too many. He's much more effective doing other things.

ChicagoJ
10-01-2008, 10:53 AM
It is nice to have a good point guard again. Wait its nice to have 2 good pointguards.

We went from the worst PG situation in the league to one of the best. I am very happy with the offseason.

We went from a bad situation that was one legit starter that it too fragile - mentally and physically - to stay on the court to a not-quite-as-bad situation of two guys that recently lost their starting jobs for whatever reason. I think the biggest cause for optimism is that we have two players to pick from, instead of putting all of our PG investment into a single (unreliable) player, not that either new player is particuarly promising.

I think we're hoping the two guys can meld into one decent player.

I think we're too giddy in the "anybody but Tinsley" mindset to look objectively at the two news guys.

I think it remains to be seen whether or not the Pacers are back in the PG market in a year or two. I veiw Ford as a 1-3 year temporary solution but I wouldn't want to extend his contract when its up. He'll make a nice "expiring" someday soon. By the time our young core of Jack?/ Rush/ Granger/ Hibbert/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD grows up and is winning ball games, a lot can/ will change.

(Now here comes Arcadian to remind me that our core for the future might still be TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD/ TBD. That's fair. I think Rush, Granger, and Hibbert have shown enough 'intangibles' to be part of the solution, even if they are just complimentary pieces.)

JayRedd
10-01-2008, 10:56 AM
(I think Rush, Granger, and Hibbert have shown enough 'intangibles' to be part of the solution, even if they are just complimentary pieces.)

Your cable package must be must better than mine if Rush and Hibbert have even shown you tangibles.

D23
10-01-2008, 11:20 AM
I could be totally wrong here, but doesn't Portland play Brandon Roy as a PG? If so, it's almost criminal that he didn't make the top-20. I also found it interesting that there's no mention of Iverson, since I'm pretty sure he played point for Denver last season. Love him or hate him, point guard or not, he still puts up numbers.

EDIT: No love for Andre Owens either?? ;)

ChicagoJ
10-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Your cable package must be must better than mine if Rush and Hibbert have even shown you tangibles.

DirecTV, baby! Cable sucks.

Just like the rest of the real world, winners and leaders are winners and leaders, at whatever level. The question is the tangibles. If they are busts they are busts. If not, Rush has a cool-under-pressure clutchness to him and Hibbert is a natural leader.

I said this yesterday, but we hire lots of college kids based on intangibles because we can determine that they have figured out how to be successful. Rush and Hibbert give me the, "I don't know exactly how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to be successful" vibe.

Worst case scenario for Rush is that he's clutch like Croshere, but not really a good enough NBA player like Croshere. So you can pretty much only play a guy like that in the fourth quarter when the 'more talented' players are choking.

ChicagoJ
10-01-2008, 12:01 PM
I could be totally wrong here, but doesn't Portland play Brandon Roy as a PG? If so, it's almost criminal that he didn't make the top-20. I also found it interesting that there's no mention of Iverson, since I'm pretty sure he played point for Denver last season. Love him or hate him, point guard or not, he still puts up numbers.

EDIT: No love for Andre Owens either?? ;)

Steve Blake?

JayRedd
10-01-2008, 12:13 PM
Worst case scenario for Rush is that he's clutch like Croshere, but not really a good enough NBA player like Croshere.

Kareem and JaRon beg to differ.
















* I like the kid. Just playing the contrarian and offering the "don't count your chickens" side of the argument.

ChicagoJ
10-01-2008, 12:17 PM
I understand. I just think Brandon showed in the final four that this is not your big brother's version of JaRon and Kareem.

Kareem and JaRon were "pure shooters" and in retrospect, the best comparison when projecting their NBA careers was probably Steve Alford.