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View Full Version : Which PD members outsmarted the GM?



McKeyFan
09-24-2008, 03:20 PM
In another thread, I provided a link to a thread I started three years ago to trade Tinsley. Here's another one a couple months later:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=11902

I think I got a lot of other stuff wrong, but nice to have one feather in my cap.

Here's my question for this thread in an offseason needing some activity:

Who on Pacers Digest outsmarted TPTB?

I'd like to see links to some threads and posts that include the following from posters:

- Warnings and fears when JO was signed to his max contract.
- Those warning about character when Jax was signed.
- " " " " " " " when Shawne Williams was signed.
- " " " " " " " when Quis was signed.
- " " " " " " " and specifically telling us he is crazy when Artest was signed.
- Those who protested against Bender's extension.
- Those who protested against Tinsley's extension.

There may be a few others. I just think it would be interesting to see which members here have been most prescient (able to say "I told you so.")

Hicks
09-24-2008, 03:23 PM
4 of those happened before PD started, so there won't be a thread from the time those happened. You might find some fairly concurrent reaction threads, though.

ajbry
09-24-2008, 03:28 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=29424

This is a good one.

Although to be honest, the tone of this thread is inherently negative... We're all going to try to discredit others. I don't think this will end well.

Since86
09-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Jay was spot on from Artest from the get go, that's an easy one.

I don't know about 'outsmarted,' but UB was definately ahead of his time when he asked TPTB to go out and get Quis, which they did. That's when I started suspecting that UB really is ol bug eyes, Donnie Walsh, in disguise.

Dr. Goldfoot
09-24-2008, 03:53 PM
get Quis, which they did.

Which in retrospect was pretty stupid. He never lived up to any of the hype on the court and has been a bad egg off the court.

Since86
09-24-2008, 04:03 PM
Which is why I said I dunno if he 'outsmarted' them.

I've come to find out, you can blame UB for just about everything. Quis, his love affair with Ron (forget the fact I was with him til the very end mind you), global warming (have you seen his carbon footprint? It makes Al Gore and his private jets seem like a solarpower panel), and even the demise of FreddieMac. I'm sure there are connections with him in every instance.

Roaming Gnome
09-24-2008, 04:24 PM
hmm... I'd be interested if there was anyone that griped in a thread about us signing J.O. to a max deal when it happened. I use to always listen to the local sports talk and all I recall most was a sigh of relief when the Pacers gave J.O. the max instead of letting him go to San Antonio to be wined and dined.

Of course revisionist history says TPTB acted in rogue to the fan base in signing J.O. to the max.

dlewyus
09-24-2008, 04:45 PM
Here's one:

Who was against bringing back Al Harrington for the second time, even giving up a first.

Edit: Even more laughable, playing him at center (or was that just on paper).

avoidingtheclowns
09-24-2008, 05:17 PM
LG33 was ahead of everyone with Kareem and Diener (though once again, outsmarted probably isn't the precise word.)

MrSparko
09-24-2008, 06:16 PM
An alright back-up shooting guard and an excellent third-stringer point guard that was forced to start. Does anyone really "regret" those decisions?

ChicagoJ
09-25-2008, 10:00 AM
You left off ... protesting Carlisle's fourth year:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=20221

I still think I'm right about that one.

Since86
09-25-2008, 10:04 AM
No way.

Bringing in JOB and having the same issues with the same players shows that those players should have been shown the door before a coach of Rick's caliber.

ChicagoJ
09-25-2008, 10:05 AM
hmm... I'd be interested if there was anyone that griped in a thread about us signing J.O. to a max deal when it happened. I use to always listen to the local sports talk and all I recall most was a sigh of relief when the Pacers gave J.O. the max instead of letting him go to San Antonio to be wined and dined.

Of course revisionist history says TPTB acted in rogue to the fan base in signing J.O. to the max.

JO had multiple suitors
Jalen had multiple suitors
Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money

Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.

Its the "early extensions" that we need to learn from: there was no reason to extend Bender and Artest, and later Tinsley when those were made. First of all, the team ran out of money, secondly, all of those players proved unworthy.

This is why I'm not overly concerned about the Granger situation. We've been smart enough to let Fred Jones and Harrison walk away instead of automatically extend them. We'll get something done with Granger, but we might as well do it for the right price, for a change. Maybe they ARE learning.

ChicagoJ
09-25-2008, 10:11 AM
No way.

Bringing in JOB and having the same issues with the same players shows that those players should have been shown the door before a coach of Rick's caliber.

Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall. :rolleyes:

We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.

count55
09-25-2008, 10:16 AM
JO had multiple suitors
Jalen had multiple suitors
Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money

Toronto did, too, as I recall.


Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.

This is probably going to be closer to the situation with Danny. He will get market value, but people may still *****. However, I am still of the opinion that we will get him for a lower price this summer than next.

count55
09-25-2008, 10:20 AM
Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall. :rolleyes:

We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.

Rick had definitely become part of the problem in the fourth year. His third year, it's more difficult to tell, but I'd say it's reasonable to believe the damage had already been done, so firing him may have been the right thing to do (in conjunction with overhauling the roster).

I had always thought that Bird would've fired Carlisle that summer if not for the two-headed monster.

Since86
09-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Its been a revolving door for players ever since the Artest trade. Granted, they held onto the problems for too long and tried to market "a new roster" (2006-07) when the only thing that changed was the scrubs. Josh Powell and Rawle Marshall. :rolleyes:

We could compromise that the needed to replace all the players AND all the coaches.

If you need to replace your players, why would you get rid of a top 5 coach? That's my point.

Did Rick lose the team? Yes, but he lost players who were leaving or needed to leave.

ChicagoJ
09-25-2008, 10:27 AM
That's the difference. I don't think Rick is a top-twenty coach.

:brick:

Since86
09-25-2008, 10:41 AM
Well I'm sure his COY award along with him placing top 3, what, 2 other years says something.

He's miles better than JOB, regardless. Change just for the sake of change isn't always good. Especially when you downgrade.

Roaming Gnome
09-25-2008, 06:56 PM
I'm just glad that Rick isn't here, along with the players in question.

I thought Rick's weaknesses in dealing with his players to me was something I didn't want new guys having to deal with. Mind games and what not.

rexnom
09-25-2008, 06:59 PM
Rick's great but his system wears down a team, its players and its fans.

BlueNGold
09-25-2008, 07:31 PM
Rick reminds me of not one but TWO of my friends. I already know what he's like both on and off the court.

Nice, conservative, caring guy who's just not real personable. He comes off as a snob to many people. He just can't help it. He likes the finer things in life including classical music and the theatre...and may be into aerobic exercise and health food. Someone tell me if I have him pegged. I think Rick likes classical music...but don't know anything else...

No offense to my buddies or Rick, but Rick would be a great coach if the players were robots.

wintermute
09-25-2008, 08:45 PM
JO had multiple suitors
Jalen had multiple suitors
Houston and Chicago offered Croshere as much money

Its been popular to b!tch about those contracts, but they got market value.

Its the "early extensions" that we need to learn from: there was no reason to extend Bender and Artest, and later Tinsley when those were made. First of all, the team ran out of money, secondly, all of those players proved unworthy.



i would say that it's the fact that we got burned on the bidding wars for jalen and austin that led to donnie's eagerness to extend the young players.

and in fact, the extensions were pretty sound at the time. artest, harrington, and tinsley had all been playing significant minutes when extended. only bender's extension was iffy. all were regarded as trade assets at the time, if the mcgrady rumors were to be believed. and recall that we were still available to trade artest, even after the palace meltdown, in part because his contract was relatively small.

the early extensions weren't the problem. it's the fact that we held certain players for too long, long after they lost their lustre.

i would prefer we extend granger early too, to head off a bidding war. but if granger's camp were asking for an above market contract, then i think management would just wait it out since they'll end up paying the same above market rate anyway.

Naptown_Seth
09-25-2008, 10:24 PM
You left off ... protesting Carlisle's fourth year:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=20221

I still think I'm right about that one.
I don't...and neither does the W/L record or the Tinsley factor. Remember that one major aspect was that Rick was the reason Tinsley wasn't working out and once he got a coach that opened up the offense it would all be so much better.

Rick was blamed for Saras - dude flopped in uptempo GS

Rick was blamed for Al - Al never did better than he did as an Indy 6th man

Rick couldn't control Ron - Ron only kept it together for one season, enough to win DPOY and make the AS team and that was for Rick

Rick's slog ball to JO hurt the team - the team improved from 30th in Points per Possession (102.9) to 19th (106) but the defense dropped from 9th to 15th, and JO kept on being hurt/unhappy. When you consider the improvement in 3P% by Dun there isn't much else that drastically improved on the offensive end.

Rick couldn't control Jackson - and then Jax got TWO different double tech ejections during the GS playoff run

Dunleavy is the only player that jumps to mind as improving without Rick, and frankly he only improved in one statistical way - his 3pt%.

Fans didn't want to come see Rick's type of team - attendence was worse last year than in any of Rick's seasons and remains on track to be that low this year.

6 years - 5 playoffs, 4 times to the 2nd round, 2 times to the ECF...all with luck or some other crap skill.

Remember when the call was to get Skiles in because he was so much better than Rick. Just one of many "grass is greener" stories.


I think Rick likes classical music...but don't know anything else...Maybe he does I suppose but his claim to fame is hanging out with Bruce Hornsby which while not rap or crap pop or metal is still rock enough to be more than "snob". Did you not listen to the Rick show at any point? He cut up quite a bit and seemed moderately ecclectic in his taste.

He's just conservative and toward the quiet end over all. Otherwise I never noticed a snob aspect to him, even accidental.



Did Rick lose the team? Yes, but he lost players who were leaving or needed to leave.Players that Rick lost, that gave up on the team, that JOB won back? zilch...ask Foster about JO's interest in still being in Indy by the end of last season

Improvement in discipline once Rick left - ask Shawne and Tinsley

croz24
09-26-2008, 12:24 AM
hmm...fairly certain i've been correct on most things concerning the pacers over the past 15 or so years. my problem is i'm just 1 or 2 years ahead of the time where it becomes popular belief.

Mourning
09-26-2008, 02:06 AM
hmm...fairly certain i've been correct on most things concerning the pacers over the past 15 or so years. my problem is i'm just 1 or 2 years ahead of the time where it becomes popular belief.

Ok, so predict the coming two years... :-p

Los Angeles
09-26-2008, 02:46 AM
I don't...and neither does the W/L record or the Tinsley factor. Remember that one major aspect was that Rick was the reason Tinsley wasn't working out and once he got a coach that opened up the offense it would all be so much better.

Rick was blamed for Saras - dude flopped in uptempo GS

Rick was blamed for Al - Al never did better than he did as an Indy 6th man

Rick couldn't control Ron - Ron only kept it together for one season, enough to win DPOY and make the AS team and that was for Rick

Rick's slog ball to JO hurt the team - the team improved from 30th in Points per Possession (102.9) to 19th (106) but the defense dropped from 9th to 15th, and JO kept on being hurt/unhappy. When you consider the improvement in 3P% by Dun there isn't much else that drastically improved on the offensive end.

Rick couldn't control Jackson - and then Jax got TWO different double tech ejections during the GS playoff run

Dunleavy is the only player that jumps to mind as improving without Rick, and frankly he only improved in one statistical way - his 3pt%.

Fans didn't want to come see Rick's type of team - attendence was worse last year than in any of Rick's seasons and remains on track to be that low this year.

6 years - 5 playoffs, 4 times to the 2nd round, 2 times to the ECF...all with luck or some other crap skill.

Remember when the call was to get Skiles in because he was so much better than Rick. Just one of many "grass is greener" stories.

Maybe he does I suppose but his claim to fame is hanging out with Bruce Hornsby which while not rap or crap pop or metal is still rock enough to be more than "snob". Did you not listen to the Rick show at any point? He cut up quite a bit and seemed moderately ecclectic in his taste.

He's just conservative and toward the quiet end over all. Otherwise I never noticed a snob aspect to him, even accidental.


Players that Rick lost, that gave up on the team, that JOB won back? zilch...ask Foster about JO's interest in still being in Indy by the end of last season

Improvement in discipline once Rick left - ask Shawne and Tinsley


Good post.

I will continue to hold a torch for Rick Carlisle. May this subject rest in peace.

McKeyFan
09-26-2008, 10:07 AM
I don't...and neither does the W/L record or the Tinsley factor. Remember that one major aspect was that Rick was the reason Tinsley wasn't working out and once he got a coach that opened up the offense it would all be so much better.

Rick was blamed for Saras - dude flopped in uptempo GS

Rick was blamed for Al - Al never did better than he did as an Indy 6th man

Rick couldn't control Ron - Ron only kept it together for one season, enough to win DPOY and make the AS team and that was for Rick

Rick's slog ball to JO hurt the team - the team improved from 30th in Points per Possession (102.9) to 19th (106) but the defense dropped from 9th to 15th, and JO kept on being hurt/unhappy. When you consider the improvement in 3P% by Dun there isn't much else that drastically improved on the offensive end.

Rick couldn't control Jackson - and then Jax got TWO different double tech ejections during the GS playoff run

Dunleavy is the only player that jumps to mind as improving without Rick, and frankly he only improved in one statistical way - his 3pt%.

Fans didn't want to come see Rick's type of team - attendence was worse last year than in any of Rick's seasons and remains on track to be that low this year.

6 years - 5 playoffs, 4 times to the 2nd round, 2 times to the ECF...all with luck or some other crap skill.

Remember when the call was to get Skiles in because he was so much better than Rick. Just one of many "grass is greener" stories.

Maybe he does I suppose but his claim to fame is hanging out with Bruce Hornsby which while not rap or crap pop or metal is still rock enough to be more than "snob". Did you not listen to the Rick show at any point? He cut up quite a bit and seemed moderately ecclectic in his taste.

He's just conservative and toward the quiet end over all. Otherwise I never noticed a snob aspect to him, even accidental.


Players that Rick lost, that gave up on the team, that JOB won back? zilch...ask Foster about JO's interest in still being in Indy by the end of last season

Improvement in discipline once Rick left - ask Shawne and Tinsley

Great post, Seth.

I liked Rick a lot, but also succombed to the temptation to move to greener grass.

I will quibble, however, with your last sentence.

My hope is that the beginning of this season is a slow, tortoise like effect of JOB actually having better discipline than Rick. JOB gave Tins a real chance. Tins blew it. JOB refused to put up with it (unlike what Rick would do) and now we start the season with solid new point guards.

While Rick is the better coach than JOB, I hold up hopes that JOB is the better disciplinarian/manager of people. And this character factor is so important that it might outweigh Rick's superior coaching skills.

That's my hope, anyway.

BillS
09-26-2008, 11:27 AM
Ok, so predict the coming two years... :-p

Pacers have trouble getting into playoffs.

Fans blame Jermaine O'Neal.

Peck blames Donnie Walsh.

:zip:

Since86
09-26-2008, 03:34 PM
Great post, Seth.

I liked Rick a lot, but also succombed to the temptation to move to greener grass.

I will quibble, however, with your last sentence.

My hope is that the beginning of this season is a slow, tortoise like effect of JOB actually having better discipline than Rick. JOB gave Tins a real chance. Tins blew it. JOB refused to put up with it (unlike what Rick would do) and now we start the season with solid new point guards.

While Rick is the better coach than JOB, I hold up hopes that JOB is the better disciplinarian/manager of people. And this character factor is so important that it might outweigh Rick's superior coaching skills.

That's my hope, anyway.

To be completely honest, I believe management's attitude changed. RC tried holding Tinsley's feet to the fire from the very beginning, in starting Kenny Anderson over him. It was let known that Tins was the starting PG. He tried it again on his way out the door with AJ as well.

I'm still not a fan of treating players all the same way, like some would like to see on here. You need to treat Ron differently than you do Foster, or Jax. Some players respond to a coach being in their ear all the time, others shut down.

I will never place the blame on the coach for what Stephen Jackson does, EVER. He's an extremely emotional person that has to have that emotion to play. If he calmed down, he would be ineffective and there's no denying it. My beef with it is, he didn't fit in Indiana or with the supporting cast. He can get away with it in GS, they have players that feed off of him that pick him up and a community that doesn't blink an eye at his outbursts.

I really think Rick got his legs cut out from underneath him early on with Jamaal, and even so with Ron. Management setup that stupid photo shoot with SI basically backing RA to the fullest. They backed all their players with their idiotic press releases saying they were standing behind their players and so forth.

I say it's managements problem from the get go because the same bullcrap kept happening under JOB than it did with Rick. There was even the "we support them" mantra handed out after a few of the incidents, i.e. Shawne.

In order for a coach to be a disciplinarian, the whole organization has to be on the same page. You can't have one for a coach, then the GM pat them on the butt and say "it's okay."

JOB stepped into a different environment. Bird and Co. laid the foot down, eventually, and told everyone enough is enough. That should have happened a long time ago, from management, when Rick was here.

Was RC part of the problem? Yes, but it starts from the top and the top wasn't too interested in getting things straightened out, either on the court or off of it.

ChicagoJ
09-26-2008, 11:13 PM
We know that when Rick told management by late 2003 that Artest needed to go away that Rick was told by one-half of the two-headed monster, "you deal with the other 11, I'll take care of him."

Worked well, didn't it?

I don't have any confidence that Mr. Personality would have done a better job relating to non-robotic humans if Management had taken more interest in discipline back then.

Rick needs to work with computers, he's great with x's and o's. Terrible with people. You've never heard me complain about the "dump it into JO" offense. It might not have been pretty, but it was effecient (when JO was healthy, 384 years ago), and Rick was all about effeciency. I can live with that.

He's a mad scientist. So you have to take the TERRIBLE people skills (and keep in mind the sole reason that guys who can't draw and x or o to save their lives -Phil Jackson, Pat Riley-have won multiple championships is because they know how to relate to and motivate professional athletes) with the brilliant gameplans. Probably not worth it. There are plenty of great x-and-o guys that don't last long and don't win championships.

That is why I keep saying that Rick will make an excellent "#1 assistant" someday. In that scenario, he only has to talk to the head coach, not the players.

In fact, I'd love to have him back on the Pacers as the #1 assistant after he burns all of the bridges in Dallas in the next 24 months or so. Jason Kidd and Carlisle: That will be so much fun to watch.

:lurk: