PDA

View Full Version : Star) Pacers ready for a clean start



Will Galen
09-23-2008, 03:45 AM
Pacers ready for a clean start

O'Brien upbeat about team's depth, commitment
By Mike Wells (mike.wells@indystar.com) Posted: September 23, 2008

Seven new faces. Many more committed players. More depth. Reliability at point guard.

It was a summer of change for the Indiana Pacers, who report to work Monday hoping for a fresh beginning in the upcoming season.
<object classid="clsid<img src=" http:="" www.pacersdigest.com="" apache2-default="" images="" smilies="" biggrin_pd.gif="" alt="" title="biggrin" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg" border="0"></object>
"It's a function of wanting to be an Indiana Pacer," coach Jim O'Brien said. "These guys were willing to sacrifice their summer to get themselves in condition in order to play the type of basketball we're going to play. I just think we have a great attitude going into this year. I don't think we could have asked for a better group of people to start the year with."

Most of the team worked out at Conseco Fieldhouse at some point this summer. Rookies Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert spent almost the entire offseason in Indianapolis, and the team's coaching staff visited players who worked out in other cities.

But the real work starts Monday, when competition for playing time will be intense because of the improved depth.

O'Brien said Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy, the two leading scorers last season, will start and that he'd be "shocked" if Troy Murphy didn't.

T.J. Ford and Jarrett Jack will battle to start at point guard, and Rasho Nesterovic, Jeff Foster and rookie Roy Hibbert will fight for minutes at center.

"I think T.J. and Jarrett both have the qualities of a starter," O'Brien said. "They're both going to play huge minutes. Another thing is, Jarrett brings toughness and energy. He's not limited to the point guard spot. He can also play two-guard."

O'Brien added defense will determine playing time. The Pacers were one of the worst defensive teams in the league last season.

The Pacers upgraded the point guard position, but they didn't address the lack of scoring in the post like team president Larry Bird wanted.

"If there's a hole, it's a much smaller hole," O'Brien said. "Roy Hibbert and Nesterovic can score in the low post. They're both very good passers, which is going to open up our ability to attack the low post with other people like Danny, Mike and Marquis (Daniels)."

Jamaal Tinsley remains on the roster, but the Pacers have taken steps to distance themselves from the point guard. They've removed Tinsley's nameplate from the locker he used at Conseco Fieldhouse and he is not expected to be at the team's media day Monday.

O'Brien said Tinsley's situation will not be a distraction.

"I don't see how it's a distraction," he said. "I'm just worried about the guys that have uniforms."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080923/SPORTS04/809230358/1088/SPORTS04
---------------------------

Naming Dun and Danny starters isn't a surprise. I also expect Ford and Murphy to start. I would love for one of our rookies to be a surprise starter. The way it sounds Hibbert has the best chance of starting, but start or not, I expect both rookies to be in the rotation.

TMJ31
09-23-2008, 05:13 AM
"I don't see how it's a distraction," he said. "I'm just worried about the guys that have uniforms."


Jamaal Tinsley = Pwned!

Whether he meant it or not, that reads as a pretty sharp little verbal jab towards Jamaal. A darn good one at that!

Jose Slaughter
09-23-2008, 05:43 AM
O'Brien added defense will determine playing time. The Pacers were one of the worst defensive teams in the league last season.


:happydanc

RamBo_Lamar
09-23-2008, 05:47 AM
Jamaal Tinsley = Pwned!

Whether he meant it or not, that reads as a pretty sharp little verbal jab towards Jamaal. A darn good one at that!

In a way it is kind of sad things worked out this way for Tinsley, but he
manuevered his own way into this situation due to his uncommitedness
and not doing enough to avoid off-court trouble.

I really hope that some other team, as the season progresses, will identify
a glaring weakness they have at the PG position, and realize that Tins can
help them fill it.

It is a wonderful and refreshing feeling for the team to finally be off to a
fresh start. Hopefully the corner has finally been turned.

Putnam
09-23-2008, 07:15 AM
"I'm just worried about the guys that have uniforms."

That's how all coaches should think. When training camp starts, the guys in blue and gold are his team and that's all that matters.



Am I the only casual fan out there who is more enthused about the blue and gold than about the horseshoes?

2minutes twowa
09-23-2008, 07:32 AM
Can't wait for the season to start!!:happydanc

count55
09-23-2008, 07:54 AM
Am I the only casual fan out there who is more enthused about the blue and gold than about the horseshoes?


Probably

Major Cold
09-23-2008, 08:56 AM
I don't think we could have asked for a better group of people to start the year with.
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/bk_AAHP113_8x10%7ELebron-James-Posters.jpghttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/02/26/chris.paul.jpghttp://www.nba.com/media/heat/wade7_300_060620.jpghttp://blueworkhorse.com/wp-content/gallery/miscellaneous/dwight_howard2.jpg to name a few

BillS
09-23-2008, 09:10 AM
count said "asked", not "sacrificed sacred portions of the anatomy to get".

count55
09-23-2008, 09:13 AM
count said "asked", not "sacrificed sacred portions of the anatomy to get".

It was actually Obie, but I'm in agreement with you, nonetheless.

Plus, Dwight Howard looks ridiculous with that cape.

MagicRat
09-23-2008, 09:29 AM
Plus, Dwight Howard looks ridiculous with that cape.

Plus, it wasn't even a dunk......:duck:

McKeyFan
09-23-2008, 09:29 AM
In a way it is kind of sad things worked out this way for Tinsley, but he
manuevered his own way into this situation due to his uncommitedness
and not doing enough to avoid off-court trouble.

I really hope that some other team, as the season progresses, will identify
a glaring weakness they have at the PG position, and realize that Tins can
help them fill it.

It is a wonderful and refreshing feeling for the team to finally be off to a
fresh start. Hopefully the corner has finally been turned.

I called for trading Jamaal three and a half years ago and got lambasted.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=9353

My how times change.

Hicks
09-23-2008, 09:39 AM
Am I the only casual fan out there who is more enthused about the blue and gold than about the horseshoes?

Hell no.

Of course, I'm biased.

rexnom
09-23-2008, 09:58 AM
I think the operative word there was "casual".

EDIT: I am neither a casual fan for the Colts or the Pacers. I am hardcore for both. I am more excited about the Pacers than I've been for years, and more concerned/worried about the Colts than I have been for years. However, I still have much higher expectations for the Colts than the Pacers.

Back to casual, I think casual fans may be experiencing enthusiasm for the Colts on the wane with the slow start, but I doubt there are many that are rubbing their hands together in anticipation of the upcoming Pacer season.
Let's wait until mid to late October and we'll see. It's quite possible that the Colts are doing terribly and the Pacers are looking interesting in the pre-season.

Bball
09-23-2008, 10:10 AM
I called for trading Jamaal three and a half years ago and got lambasted.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=9353

My how times change.


When someone mentions or bumps one of these old threads I always cringe as I go thru the posts hoping I didn't make a fool of myself somehow... Once again, I'm safe. ...But I'd hate to be Uncle Buck or Peck :devil:

;)
Bball

Unclebuck
09-23-2008, 10:11 AM
I haven't watched a minute of the Colts this season. Just seems like the same thing - same thing for the past 5 or 6 years. I'm bored with them. But then I'm biased and not much of a football fan at all. Games too long and to me at least rather boring.

Looking forward to the Pacers for sure though. I hope Hibbert is as good as everyone seems to think. If he's a regular rotation player - I'll be thrilled. I don't care if he can score at all, if he can rebound, block shots, set picks and most of all just be an inside presense - then I'll be thrilled

Anthem
09-23-2008, 10:15 AM
O'Brien said Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy, the two leading scorers last season, will start and that he'd be "shocked" if Troy Murphy didn't.
We'll go into the season starting Rasho and Murphy, but I bet Jeff has his spot back by December.

It's amazing to me... I've never seen a guy re-earn his spot so many times.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2008, 10:26 AM
When someone mentions or bumps one of these old threads I always cringe as I go thru the posts hoping I didn't make a fool of myself somehow... Once again, I'm safe. ...But I'd hate to be Uncle Buck or Peck :devil:

;)
Bball

I'm okay with my Tinsley comments.

But I do regret...


I wouldn't necessarily object to a three-guard rotation in which AJ was the third guard. I think Fred will be better in that role, long-term.

D'oh! :dunce:

Unclebuck
09-23-2008, 10:55 AM
When someone mentions or bumps one of these old threads I always cringe as I go thru the posts hoping I didn't make a fool of myself somehow... Once again, I'm safe. ...But I'd hate to be Uncle Buck or Peck :devil:

;)
Bball

That wasn't me, that was one of those days when my younger and illogical brother stole my computer and posted stuff under my namesake. He seems to do that a couple of times a year.

NuffSaid
09-23-2008, 10:59 AM
We'll go into the season starting Rasho and Murphy, but I bet Jeff has his spot back by December.

It's amazing to me... I've never seen a guy re-earn his spot so many times.
I don't think Jeff Foster every really loses his starting job. I think RC and JOB just decide to shake things up for a bit...experiement if you will...and then go back to what works. To me, Jeff Foster is the perfect "fall-back" man. Whether he's starting or coming off the bench, he's still gonna be productive.

McKeyFan
09-23-2008, 11:05 AM
I think Foster is one of the most intelligent, basketball savvy players in the league. Great court awareness.

His glaring liabilities keep him off the starting five at the beginning of the season, when athleticism and scoring looks so important in the abstract. When reality sets in, Jeff gets his spot back.

And when the coach gets tired of dealing with knuckleheads, I'm sure it's oh so easy to put Jeff back in.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2008, 03:46 PM
Even when he starts, his coaches don't like to give him more than 24 mpg or so. You guys overrate him so much ...

Anthem
09-23-2008, 05:54 PM
Even when he starts, his coaches don't like to give him more than 24 mpg or so. You guys overrate him so much ...
December. Book it.

Pacerized
09-23-2008, 08:05 PM
Pacers ready for a clean start

O'Brien upbeat about team's depth, commitment
By Mike Wells (mike.wells@indystar.com) Posted: September 23, 2008
O'Brien said Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy, the two leading scorers last season, will start and that he'd be "shocked" if Troy Murphy didn't.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080923/SPORTS04/809230358/1088/SPORTS04
---------------------------.

I'm just shocked that O'Brien views Murphy as a starter. Let him come of the bench for a little instant offense or when you need all your 3 point shooters on the floor. I'd be very suprised if Foster and Rasho aren't starting after the preseason.

count55
09-23-2008, 08:42 PM
Murphy will start every game that he plays.

pacergod2
09-23-2008, 08:57 PM
Murphy will be the biggest surprise on our team. Hibbert and Rush will be a close second.

BlueNGold
09-23-2008, 09:48 PM
Lotta Murph-love here. I hope I'm dead wrong about him and you all are right. I think defense is more important than another tall 3pt shooter...but what do I know?

Eindar
09-23-2008, 11:30 PM
I think Murphy will start simply because neither Foster, Rasho, nor Hibbert at this point are productive enough offensively to be paired together. Putting Murphy in there spreads the floor, allowing TJ better slashing lanes, and even opening up the post for Rasho and Hibbert.

Kemo
09-24-2008, 02:49 AM
Lotta Murph-love here. I hope I'm dead wrong about him and you all are right. I think defense is more important than another tall 3pt shooter...but what do I know?

You are right .. Defense is KEY ....

But I do like Murph quite a bit ..

I just hope he keeps doing what he done at the end of the season , with driving , and posting up more ...
If he makes that his bread and butter.... then I think he will be ok ... and the 3 point shooting is just the icing on the cake....

But he MUST strive to improve on his defense and post up game...and build on .. what he started doing the end of last season...

count55
09-24-2008, 07:41 AM
Lotta Murph-love here. I hope I'm dead wrong about him and you all are right. I think defense is more important than another tall 3pt shooter...but what do I know?


I think Murphy will start simply because neither Foster, Rasho, nor Hibbert at this point are productive enough offensively to be paired together. Putting Murphy in there spreads the floor, allowing TJ better slashing lanes, and even opening up the post for Rasho and Hibbert.

Basically, Eindar answered your comment. It's not love, it's pragmatism. Murphy is really the only PF we have that actually approaches starting quality, and the only threat to him would be a Rasho/Foster or Hibbert/Foster combo, neither of which I view as particularly likely.

Saying Murphy will start every game he plays this year would be the rough equivalent of saying Tinsley would start every game he played at the same time last year. It may not end up being true, but it's a pretty safe bet.

Unclebuck
09-24-2008, 08:57 AM
Murphy's defense is horrible - no doubt - although his team defense is OK - he knows what he is supposed to do in the system and that is extremely important in this defensive system.

One of the supposed strengths of this defense is that the relative abilities of each defender is less important individual - more important is following the system and learning to defend within the system.

Wow - not sure I am making any sense. Point I'm trying to make is poor defenders can be overcome with good team defense

McKeyFan
09-24-2008, 09:48 AM
I hear ya, UB, but I must admit I've grown a little impatient with that defensive system. I'm gonna give it a month or two this year. I know last year had serious weak links, starting at the top (point guard) so maybe we'll see some results this year.

Unclebuck
09-24-2008, 10:18 AM
I hear ya, UB, but I must admit I've grown a little impatient with that defensive system. I'm gonna give it a month or two this year. I know last year had serious weak links, starting at the top (point guard) so maybe we'll see some results this year.

I agree with your point about having some weak links last season. But I think O'Brien's quote
Last year, we got to the point where none of our leaders were taking responsibility for defense

shows that the players were not committed to the system. When players are committed to the system - we know the system works - (see the Celtics from last year with basically the same system) So I really believe if the players and more specifically if the leaders are committed to it - the other players will fall in line and it will be much better and the weak links like Murphy won't be so obvious

pacergod2
09-24-2008, 10:27 AM
The defensive system is a very good system. It had more to do with our personnel. Granger was good but was asked to do more than he should have in this system. Dunleavy will be a decent defender in this system because he is long and guards shorter players. The PG position was horrible defensively, and thats why Quis played way more minutes than he should have at PG. His defense was good, but he was completely out of position and it took more away from our offense than helped our defense (i.e. taking longer to bring the ball up the court and not having enough time to get through our offensive possessions, Quis at the top of the key with a smaller player on him when he needs to work screens and post to gain the advantage). The swiss cheese/ole' defense at PG left our bigs trying to switch over to the driving player and leaving their own man WIDE OPEN. I don't know HOW MANY TIMES I saw this. Big guys wide open for dump down passes. Our front court wasn't athletic enough last year to block shots and they were constantly forced to be in a 2 on 1 situation in a half court defense.

It wasn't the system. It was the mismatches we had defensively that was the problem. You can't get mad at Foster for not switching off his guy to play help side because after a while I bet he got sick of taking the heat for his man getting easy buckets when it isn't his fault. I think Ford and Jack will allow our team defense to improve considerably. I hope Ford picks his man up at half court in this system. It will take the defensive pressure off of our front court, which to me, is seemingly our biggest liability between offense and defense with this roster. I think it will take some time for the new guys/rookies to make things fluid both offensively and defensively. With a tough early schedule, it will allow us to lose some games to good teams and force us to get better. I could see us having a very good second half of the season. Don't be disappointed if we struggle early. Stay a fan for more than month or two.

Hicks
09-24-2008, 11:27 AM
The defensive system is a very good system. It had more to do with our personnel. Granger was good but was asked to do more than he should have in this system. Dunleavy will be a decent defender in this system because he is long and guards shorter players. The PG position was horrible defensively, and thats why Quis played way more minutes than he should have at PG. His defense was good, but he was completely out of position and it took more away from our offense than helped our defense (i.e. taking longer to bring the ball up the court and not having enough time to get through our offensive possessions, Quis at the top of the key with a smaller player on him when he needs to work screens and post to gain the advantage). The swiss cheese/ole' defense at PG left our bigs trying to switch over to the driving player and leaving their own man WIDE OPEN. I don't know HOW MANY TIMES I saw this. Big guys wide open for dump down passes. Our front court wasn't athletic enough last year to block shots and they were constantly forced to be in a 2 on 1 situation in a half court defense. It wasn't the system. It was the mismatches we had defensively that was the problem. You can't get mad at Foster for not switching off his guy to play help side because after a while I bet he got sick of taking the heat for his man getting easy buckets when it isn't his fault. I think Ford and Jack will allow our team defense to improve considerably. I hope Ford picks his man up at half court in this system. It will take the defensive pressure off of our front court, which to me, is seemingly our biggest liability between offense and defense with this roster. I think it will take some time for the new guys/rookies to make things fluid both offensively and defensively. With a tough early schedule, it will allow us to lose some games to good teams and force us to get better. I could see us having a very good second half of the season. Don't be disappointed if we struggle early. Stay a fan for more than month or two.

I have nothing to add other than I agree.

Jonathan
09-24-2008, 12:52 PM
Do you guys really think IF TJ Ford went down with a season ending injury we would not play Tinsley? IF we cannot trade him, continue to pay him & TJ goes down we have Jack/Diener why not play him? If nobody wants him the only way to increase his value is playing him.

Hicks
09-24-2008, 01:13 PM
My guess is he's a lockerroom cancer at this point and they would not play him in any circumstance. They will pretend he doesn't exist.

Bball
09-24-2008, 01:48 PM
Do you guys really think IF TJ Ford went down with a season ending injury we would not play Tinsley? IF we cannot trade him, continue to pay him & TJ goes down we have Jack/Diener why not play him? If nobody wants him the only way to increase his value is playing him.

I hold out a glimmer of hope that something will be done to remove even the chance of that polarizing issue developing. If Tinsley is still on the payroll, his legend growing whether his waistline is or not, then I'm sure a select group of fans would be calling for us to find him and suit him back up if we have PG problems. As it is, I'm sure a few people will be pining for "Good Tinsley" even if he was cut ("We need Jamaal but our management listened to a bunch of bandwagoners and NOW look what it's got us!").

You've outlined the worst case scenario and the one reason I'd be inclined to say a buyout isn't out of the question. As long as things are going OK it won't be a distraction... but I could see it being a polarizing issue in fanland and also I worry if TPTB could keep their hands out of the cookie jar if we did need PG help and Jamaal was still around ("Well, what would it hurt to give him one more chance?").

No, the only way to get past the Tinsley era is leaving it in the rearview mirror under ALL circumstances. I don't care if he's the last PG on earth, I don't want to see him in a Pacer uni ever again.

-Bball

Unclebuck
09-24-2008, 02:04 PM
Do you guys really think IF TJ Ford went down with a season ending injury we would not play Tinsley? IF we cannot trade him, continue to pay him & TJ goes down we have Jack/Diener why not play him? If nobody wants him the only way to increase his value is playing him.

If the pacers ask him not to attend training camp - that means he will not play this season or ever again for the pacers under any circumstances

McKeyFan
09-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Don't be disappointed if we struggle early. Stay a fan for more than month or two.

I'll stay a fan.

If you mean a fan of the defensive system, I don't know. Two months with decent talent and it still looks like a formula for no accountability, than I will have some serious questions. Hopefully, it looks vastly improved.

pacergod2
09-24-2008, 03:15 PM
Well McKey... I was talking more in terms of the defensive system, but I wouldn't rule it out that someone might quit on the team after two months either. I am figuring on a rough two months... but hopefully there will be more than just flashes of brilliance.

count55
09-24-2008, 03:46 PM
If the pacers ask him not to attend training camp - that means he will not play this season or ever again for the pacers under any circumstances

If the Pacers ask him not to attend training camp, it means that he will not be in training camp. It means that they do not want him to play for the Pacers again under any circumstances. However, as long as he's on the roster and collects a paycheck, there is no such thing as "never under any circumstances."

BlueNGold
09-24-2008, 06:34 PM
Never say never.

Ok, now back to reality. No, Jamaal Tinsley is not going to play for the Pacers this year or any other year. If Ford goes down, Jack will take his place nicely. He might even be better. If Jack goes down too, Diener will do what he did last year as Tinsley sits at home and swells.

Stick a fork in Tinman. He could not be more done in Indy. I would not be surprised if the Pacers pick up another backup in the event Ford goes down. I think the trades over the summer made it clear replacing JT was the highest priority.

Unclebuck
09-25-2008, 08:34 AM
If the Pacers ask him not to attend training camp, it means that he will not be in training camp. It means that they do not want him to play for the Pacers again under any circumstances. However, as long as he's on the roster and collects a paycheck, there is no such thing as "never under any circumstances."

Well I suppose if Bird, O'Brien and Morway all get fired - although even then I doubt the Simon's would take him back so they also would have to sell the team

RamBo_Lamar
09-25-2008, 08:49 AM
Well I'm hoping this clean start doesn't get tarnished somewhere along the
way by more of Shawne Williams' buddies coming up to visit from Memphis.

History suggests this is certainly within the realm of possibility.

It does seem Shawne has been keeping a very low profile since that last
incident where he got pulled over for the overly-tinted windows.

OakMoses
09-25-2008, 12:03 PM
T.J. Ford and Jarrett Jack will battle to start at point guard, and Rasho Nesterovic, Jeff Foster and rookie Roy Hibbert will fight for minutes at center.

"I think T.J. and Jarrett both have the qualities of a starter," O'Brien said. "They're both going to play huge minutes. Another thing is, Jarrett brings toughness and energy. He's not limited to the point guard spot. He can also play two-guard."

O'Brien added defense will determine playing time. The Pacers were one of the worst defensive teams in the league last season.

The Pacers upgraded the point guard position, but they didn't address the lack of scoring in the post like team president Larry Bird wanted.


The starting PG topic hasn't gotten much discussion, but I think it's an interesting one. I'd just like to point out how happy I am that we're discussing who should start between Ford and Jack. At the end of last season we were trying to decide between Diener, Quis, and Murray.

Anthem
09-25-2008, 01:12 PM
If Ford doesn't start then we didn't do very well in the Toronto trade.

I really like Jack, but here's hoping TJ is good enough to start ahead of him.

OakMoses
09-25-2008, 01:24 PM
If Ford doesn't start then we didn't do very well in the Toronto trade.

I really like Jack, but here's hoping TJ is good enough to start ahead of him.

I like Jack also, but I think his only chance of starting is if O'Brien's comments about defense aren't just lip service. It's a bit hard to believe him when he talks about Troy being a starter.

What I'm truly hoping is that Jack can continue to develop his game to the point where he can take over as the starter for TJ in a couple years when Ford's contract expires. I can see Jack developing into a Billups-like PG if he keeps working hard.

I do see Ford as the starter but Jack as the closer, especially if we're ahead. I don't like him at the 2 as much, but he could contribute there defensively against guys like Wade who like to drive more than they like to shoot.

count55
09-25-2008, 01:52 PM
If Ford doesn't start then we didn't do very well in the Toronto trade.

I really like Jack, but here's hoping TJ is good enough to start ahead of him.

It seems to me that there is an obvious edge to Ford based on their careers. While Ford has never reached the promise that he showed as a rookie, I think he can be considered a good, middle-of-the-road starting quality Point Guard. I don't think that's an unreasonable assessment based on his performance throughout his career. Of the two times he was traded, I believe Milwaukee made a mistake, while I tend to agree with Toronto's move. (However, it could go either way. I prefer Calderon stylistically (and from a health perspective), but I'll be interested to see if he really provides a qualitative jump over the course of a full season.)

Jarrett Jack, on the other hand, appears to be a very good rotational player. For lack of a comparable point within easy grasp of my memory, I'll liken him to Jeff Foster. He's a guy you want on your team, but, even in a starting role, he'll be given somewhat limited minutes. He can start, but you're probably better off going a different direction with him.

As to Obie's comments, I think that he's probably being honest about the starting lineup not being set, but I'm sure that he is expecting Ford to win the job. More to the point, he's more likely to be unpleasantly surprised if Ford can't beat out Jack than he is to be pleasantly surprised with Jack's ability.

CableKC
09-25-2008, 02:14 PM
Do you guys really think IF TJ Ford went down with a season ending injury we would not play Tinsley? IF we cannot trade him, continue to pay him & TJ goes down we have Jack/Diener why not play him? If nobody wants him the only way to increase his value is playing him.
We would go with a Jack/Diener PG rotation if Ford went down. I pretty much consider Diener a poor-man's version of Ford that isn't a very good scorer.

Bball
09-25-2008, 02:17 PM
If Ford doesn't start then we didn't do very well in the Toronto trade.

I really like Jack, but here's hoping TJ is good enough to start ahead of him.

It depends on your point of view. I think it accomplished what needed to happen and the rest is just gravy. :devil:

Roaming Gnome
09-25-2008, 07:11 PM
It depends on your point of view. I think it accomplished what needed to happen and the rest is just gravy. :devil:

As much as I hate the idea of this, you are probably right. Anyway, look at what Marbury's expiring is doing for the Knicks. Marbury today said...!!Show me the money!! because he was not taking a cent less then what his contract owes him.