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Hicks
09-19-2008, 09:06 PM
It's time. In fact, it's past time. So here at last it is, the F.A.Q. made for and by the members of Pacers Digest.

For details on how to make this a better thread, scroll to the bottom of my post.

========================The Pacers Digest F.A.Q.========================

========================Table of Contents========================

Item #01: Current Events, Forum History, References & Terminology

Section #01: Current Events

01.01.01 - count55's guide to salary questions et al

Section #02: Abbreviations & Acronyms

01.02.01 - TPTB

Section #03: References

01.03.01 - Burlington Coat Factory

01.03.02 - Going PFFL

01.03.03 - Guess The Score Contest (From Doug / RoboDoug)

01.03.04 - Jerseys - What's the difference between a Replica, Swingman, and Authentic?

01.03.05 - RATS

Item #02: Forum Etiquette

Item #03: NBA/CBA Information

DISCLAIMER: This F.A.Q. is meant for people who are new to or moderately familiar with the NBA/CBA. For a more detailed account, please visit Larry Coon's outstanding website: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

03.01 - Free Agents

03.01.01 - Restricted Free Agents & Bird Rights

03.01.02 - Unrestricted Free Agents

03.01.03 - Lower Level Exception

03.01.04 - Mid Level Exception

03.02 - Player Salaries

03.02.01 - Minimum Salary

03.02.02 - Maximum Salary

03.03 - Team Salaries

03.03.01 - Salary Cap

03.03.02 - Luxury Tax

03.04 - Trades

03.04.01 - Trade Exception

Item #04: Statistics

========================================

Item #01: Current Events, Forum History, References & Terminology

Section #01: Current Events

01.01.01 - count55's guide to salary questions et al - Here are many of the posts count55 has made recently in regards to frequently asked quesitons about the Pacers' salary situation and other issues as they relate to this 2008 summer and into the 2008 pre-season:


OK...Here's how I understand the Pacers cap situation for next summer (sources are Shamsports and Larry Coon's CBA FAQ).

Guaranteed Salaries: $41,778

Includes guaranteed contracts of Murphy, Dunleavy, Ford, Tinsley (or his replacement), Rush, and Hibbert, as well as Player Option for Travis Diener

Cap Holds: $39,255

Rasho $12,600 (150% of this year's salary)
Foster $8,250 (150%)
Baston $3,409 (150%)
Granger $6,989 (300%)
Jack $6,008 (300%)
Graham $1,074 (130%)
McBob $925 (130%)

Cap holds count against the cap for FA signing purposes, but don't count against the tax or anything else. Therefore, the Pacers "Cap Number" entering next summer's FA period would be $81,033.

Here's Coon's explanation of why:


31. Why do free agents continue to count against a team's cap?

It closes another loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exceptions. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It doesn't close this loophole completely -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.


However, they can (and we expect that they will) reduce that cap number by renouncing the rights to some of these players. (If they renounce the rights to the players, they could only re-sign them (a) if they had cap room or (b) to a minimum contract. They could "sign-and-trade" the player using the Bird rights, but they could not use the Bird rights any longer to just sign him.)

It seems obvious that they'd almost certainly renounce Rasho, Baston, Graham, and McBob, reducing their cap hold by $18,008. However, that still leaves $21,247 in cap holds related to Jeff Foster, Danny Granger, and Jarrett Jack.

Therefore, assuming that, they'd have a "cap number" of $63,025 with 7 players under contract, and retaining the rights to the three I mentioned. The cap (at 5% growth) would probably be somewhere around $61-62 mm. (These numbers, BTW, completely ignore the holds for our 1st rounder, which would probably be about $2mm, and our MLE, which would be about $6mm).

So, how do they maximize their capspace for next summer, and what would that figure be?

By my calculations, the lowest "Cap Number" the Pacers could have would be about $50,000, leaving them $11 to $12mm below the cap. However, to do that, they'd have to renounce the rights to everyone except Danny.

If they were to renounce everyone except Danny and JJ, they'd be at around $56mm, but then the MLE cap hold would kick in and probably put their "cap number" over the cap.

They could re-sign JJ sooner (extension this summer or new contract early next summer) and probably save $1-2mm, which would likely negate the MLE caphold and leave them at $7-8mm under the cap. Let's say they did that...after signing Danny and a $7mm FA, they'd probably look like this:

Guaranteed: $41,778 (7 Players)
Danny: $ 9,000 (Conservatively 6/68, 1 player)
FA: $ 7,000 (1 player)
JJ: $ 4,500 (Conservatively, 1 player)
1st Rounder: $ 1,600 (1 player)

Total $63,878 on 11 players, roughly $11mm left under the tax to sign the last four. I guess it's do-able, but who are we going to get for $7-$8mm? If we let everybody go, who's the $11mm prize that's gonna sign with the Pacers? What if somebody offers Danny a higher contract?

It seems like an awful big crap shoot to me.

I have the suspicion that the Pacers are actually just being "cautious". I kinda think they wanna see one more year before they pony up for Danny. The idea of "maximizing cap space" is kind of convoluted, and not as productive as some might believe. Honestly, unless we want to completely gut our team next summer (which we might), we aren't going to have any real cap space.

I guess that's an OK strategy, but I'm not overly comfortable with it.




Sorry...I'm still confused here.....which could be a result of how I am interpreting what is being stated.

I understand that as a RFA next offseason...that we can resign Granger to any contract...even if we are over the Salarycap AT THE TIME of the signing. What I don't understand is IF we give him an extension now....whether his 2009-2010 Salary would count towards the Salarycap once the 2009 FA period starts.

I thought ( like you ) that giving Granger an extension ( much like signing him as a RFA ) would not affect whether our ability to sign a FA or not....but based off of Bruno's statement....it seems to contradict that.

When I read Bruno's statement:



like this:

If we extend Granger now, his 2009-2010 contract immediately counts towards the 2009 Salarycap ( as Bruno puts it...."our cap space would vanish" ) when the FA period starts.....likely pushing us over the Salarycap threshold.....thus defining whether we will be below or above the Salarycap limit at the start of the 2009 FA period and therefore affect whether we can sign a FA or not.

Cable, as of today, Danny counts for $7.0mm against the 2009 FA "Cap Space". This is the amount of his cap hold as a Free Agent.

Regardless of what we do, he counts for about $2.4mm against the 2008-2009 salary cap. This is the amount of his rookie contract for this year.

If we were to sign Danny to an extension this summer, then his 2009 FA "Cap Hit" would be the amount of the first year of his extension, his 2009-2010 salary. Let's say we gave him 5 year extension, starting at $9mm and growing at 10.5% (max raise). He would be on our cap at $9mm for 2009.

The mistake I think Bruno (and others) are making is the belief that Danny will count as $0 against the cap for 2009 until we re-sign him. However, to close the loophole that would allow teams to sign a whole bunch of FA's, then go way over the cap signing their own players, the league CBA puts cap holds for a team's FA's, as explained in my post below. For a guy coming off his rookie contract (4th year), it's 300% of his last year's salary.

The only way Danny would count as $0 against our cap would be if we were to renounce his Bird rights. I don't think anyone...well, anyone with any intelligence...would believe that to be a prudent or desirable course of action.

A note on Shamsports: The amount in Red in the 2009 column for Danny and JJ is the "qualifying offer". This IS NOT a cap hold. It is the one-year amount that would have to be offered to those players in order for the Pacers to retain right to match. If the Pacers did not offer at least that, they'd effectively renounce their rights making the players UNrestricted Free Agents.



Count, is your real name David Morway?

I wish.


Thanks for the clarification. That's what I have been trying to figure out.

IF we extend him now and he ( for example ) will count as $9 mil in 2009-2010...does that mean that at the start of the 2009 FA period...our Salarycap will be set at $50 mil instead of $41 mil ( assuming that we renounce Granger and let him become a RFA )?

If that is the case.....that makes a huge difference. I know that in the end....regardless of whether we extend Granger or resign him as a RFA....that there will be so much $$$ that TPTB are going to want to spend....it's just a matter of how we spend the $$$ and how we acquire the players that we have.

Yes, if we extend him now, we'll be at $50mm. However, even if we don't, but we retain his rights, we'll still be at $48mm with his cap hold.


I know that for RFAs like Granger and Jack that we have the right to match any offer they get.....but what about our UFAs like Foster, Rasho, Baston and McRoberts?

I know that in the end...that it's entirely up to the UFA to choose where he goes....but I wasn't sure if the CBA gives the team that currently owns his contract any advantages to resign that player over other teams.

The advantage that we have on those guys on other teams is that we can offer a 6-year contract, while other teams can offer only a 5-year deal, max.

The key advantage over most teams, though, is the Bird rights...the ability to go over the cap to sign them. We lose that advantage, however, if we renounce their rights.


Two problems with the "significant cap space theory":

1. This team has no history of pursuing or bagging major free agents. I don't see a real reason to think this will change given (a) the teams level of talent, (b) the teams contract commitments to players like Murphy, Dunleavy, & Tinsley (& the impending Danny contract) (c) the team's current attendance and financial position, and (d) the questions surrounding the future of the ownership given the advanced age of the Simons, and the reported lack of interest by David Simon.

2. It's exceedingly unlikely that we will actually have "significant cap space". This has been outlined ad nauseum, but the CBA puts cap holds for free agents on salaries in order to prevent teams from circumventing the cap by signing FA, then re-signing their own players.


31. Why do free agents continue to count against a team's cap?

It closes another loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exceptions. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It doesn't close this loophole completely -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.

If we don't sign Danny, he will still count as $7mm towards our cap next summer until he signs a contract with us or someone else. We have just under $42mm in contract commitments next year. Danny's cap hold would put us at $49mm, and the hold for our 1st round pick will probably put us at around $50-51mm. Assuming that the cap will be around $62mm next year, that would leave us $12mm of cap space before considering any other free agent cap holds we have. We have the following other cap holds:

Rasho $12,600 (150% of this year's salary)
Foster $8,250 (150%)
Baston $3,409 (150%)
Jack $6,008 (300%)
Graham $1,074 (130%)
McBob $925 (130%)

So, before we actually have cap space available to sign free agents, we'd have to renounce the rights to some or all of the players listed above. To get the $11-12mm, we'd have to renounce the rights to all of them. What does it mean to "renounce" a player? It means that we're basically giving up our right to go over the salary cap to sign them. We can re-sign them, but only if (a) we have enough free cap space (in other words, they become the UFA we'd sign) or (b) they sign to the Minimum Player exception. We can't use the MLE. We can't use Bird Rights. We can sign-and-trade them, but that gets pretty speculative. Effectively, you have lost those players, likely with no compensation.

So, let's say we do renounce all of those players. Why would a player like Carlos Boozer take a below-market offer (starting at $11-12mm) to come to a team with Granger, Dunleavy, Murphy, B Rush, Hibbert, Diener, Ford, Tinsley (or his replacement/buyout amount), and a (likely) mid-1st rounder, and nothing else? What difference maker are you going to get for that amount that is that big of an upgrade over the rights to Foster, Jack, or potentially Rasho?

If we were to decide that we wanted to retain the rights to even one of the rotational players listed above (Rasho, Foster, or Jack), then their cap hold would probably get us close enough to the cap for the MLE & LLE cap holds (yes, they have those, too) to kick in, effectively zeroing out our free cap space and relegating us to MLE-level signings.

The idea of waiting until next year to sign Danny to "maximize cap space" is simply a red herring. It is flawed in it's very core.

There is only one reason that the Pacers would not sign Danny to an extension this year:

The Pacers Front Office and ownership is, at this time, unwilling to commit to Danny at the price he would be asking for this summer.

They want to see another year. They're gunshy from Rose, JO, Bender, Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley. They're hemmorhaging money, and attendance is abysmal. The Simons are aging, and they're balking at committing $60+mm to a guy who only has one year of big numbers, and that was on a team that didn't make the playoffs.

Or worse. They may not be willing to commit that money to anybody.

The talk of "free agents" is a misdirection. The Pacers are not in a position to sign major free agents, and they won't be next summer, either. While their "conservatism" may be sound fiscal policy, it's something we should be concerned about. What happens if Danny averages 20 & 7, but the team wins 30 games? Did he prove that he was worth Iggy money, or did he prove that he wasn't worth it?

They may be playing the exact same game that Atlanta did with Josh Smith...hoping that the market will be constrained enough to knock down Danny's price.

If the Pacers knew for sure that they wanted to lock up Danny, then it would be done this summer, just like NO did with Paul, Milwaukee did with Bogut, and GS did with Ellis & Biedrins. Allowing Danny to enter the FA market is much more indicative of a higher willingness to let him walk than we currently would like to believe, than it is of strategic cap planning.

If Danny doesn't sign an extension this summer, I would (unscientifically) put the chances of us losing him next summer at 1 in 3. This isn't because I think that it's more likely for a huge bidding war to drive him out of our price range. It's because I think that the ownership may think he's already out of our price range.



Indy has been trying to free up cap space to hit next year's free agency market. Im sure they'll be interested in Boozer if they can scrap up enough money after signing Granger. Pacers have a lot of expirers at the end of his season: Daniels ($6,864,200), Bason ($2,272,860), Diener ($1,620,000), Foster ($5,500,000 - who will probably be re-signed), Graham ($826,269), and Nesterovic ($8,400,000) and McRoberts ($711,517)...Jack, Granger and Williams (if he behaves and matures) will most likely be resigned.

Basically $26,194,846 will come off the books next year, but Granger and Jack will be the main player that need to be signed. Right now the Pacers are $10 mill over the cap. So they'll have about $16 mill to re-sign players or add to their roster. The cap right now is at about $59 million, ive heard rumors that next season it will be at $65 (I dont know where I read this, but I remember it). If Granger is signed at about $11 million a season and Jack at $4 million a season thats $15 mill gone right away about about $1 million to work with, with the current salary cap. If the cap moves about $6 Million up, then the Pacers will have $7 million to work with. If the Pacers can sign Boozer for $12 million a season that means they'll only be over the cap by $5 million with this roster:

Ford/Jack
Dunleavy/Rush
Granger/Williams
Boozer/Foster
Murphy/Hibbert

Not a bad start 5. Sorry for that long analysis, just trying to put in perspective what the Pacers are trying to do

If we retained the rights to Granger, Jack, and Foster, then the cap holds would prevent us for being able to sign Boozer.




I didn't read all of what count wrote due to its Naptimeyness, but I imagine he said that the OP is incorrect since we would have what is called a "cap hold" next summer anyway that would be tie up at least somewhat close to as much cap room as what we would end up giving Danny in Year 1 of an extension.

The only benefit we could get out of not signing Danny this summer is if he turns out to be a worse player than we thought over the next 10 months. And that, of course, isn't particularly helpful for our franchise either.

Basically, we don't have any real cap space available next year, and Danny's extension would make only a minimal impact on it.

Not signing Danny is far more likely to be due to misgivings the Pacers have about paying Danny (specifically, or quite possibly anyone, generally) the kind of money he would likely command this (or next) summer.

Therefore, rather than viewing it as some clever strategem to help turn the team around, we should more likely view this turn of events as a troubling sign that the Simons' commitment to the Pacers may be faltering, and that they are more concerned with the P&L than the Box Score.




How much cap space would we have if we only hold onto the rights to Danny and Jack?

Also, something else to keep in mind is that there is always the possibility of a new trade that would change our finances. If we end up with more expiring contracts, you never know.

Contracts: $41,778

Capholds: $14,997 (Danny $6,989, JJ $6,008, 1st Rounder $2,000)

Total $56,775

Assuming a $62,000 salary cap (5.7% growth over this year's), we'd have $5,225, which would likely get gobbled up by the roughly $6,000 MLE hold.

Obviously, if we could find a way to convert somebody (preferrably Tinsley) into an expiring contract this year, it would significantly change the math, but, failing that, the only way we'll be able to have enough space to sign someone for more than the MLE is to renounce everybody but Danny.

If we wanted to keep Jack, we'd probably be better off signing him to an extension this summer, or locking him up on Day 1 next, because it's exceedingly unlikely he'd command a contract starting at $6,000. In fact, with the exception of Danny, all of those players listed would likely sign 1st year contracts for far less than their cap holds. However, once they were signed and added to our existing contracts and Danny's cap hold, we'd be back up against the cap and looking at MLE's anyway, so there's not a huge advantage in being quick with them.





even when if we decide to sign Boozer along with everyone you mentioned, we'll be in the same position, where we are about $10 - $12 million over the cap but with a much better team

The Pacers can't sign Boozer and retain the rights to Granger, Jack, and Foster.

What you're saying the Pacers are doing cannot be done under the salary cap rules.

We can't go over the cap to sign Boozer, and we won't have enough space to sign Boozer unless we renounce the rights to two of the three guys mentioned above. If we renounce their rights, then we couldn't go over the cap to sign them, unless they signed for the Minimum contract, which they won't.




Wait. So shouldn't we extend Jack too? Wouldn't that be less than his cap hold?

Yes...Jack's cap hold would be $6 million, while I'd expect his extention to be in the $3.5 to $5mm range, as a start. However...


I would think that Bird wants to see more of Jack in our offense before committing ot him. Unlike Granger and Foster....we have only seen Jack play in 2 preseason games so far.

I'd agree that we're leaning towards keeping him, but may not quite be ready to commit. However, if you could get an extension of something like 3 yrs, $12mm, I would lock him up.


That makes sense, but then again, if we can get Jack for a value under his cap hold and somehow pull of a favorable Tinsley trade then we might be more than MLE players next summer. Right? Or is my math just off right now?

Here's the basic deal. If the Pacers don't move Tinsley, or don't reduce the salary impact on next year in a Tinsley deal, the Pacers will have roughly $47.9mm in guaranteed contracts. Danny's cap hold will be about $7.0mm, and let's assume a caphold for our first round pick of about $2.0mm.

47.9 plus 7.0 plus 2.0 puts us at about 56.9mm. I'd expect the cap to be between 61 & 62mm next year, so that leaves us only $5-6mm of space.

Effectively, we've already locked ourselves out of the above MLE market by extending Jeff.

Caveat: If we can make the Denver Deal (Atkins/Hunter for Tinsley), then that would clear an additional $2.7mm of cap space, which could make us a player above the MLE.

However, if we do anything with Jack other than renouncing his rights, then we're basically out of cap space.

Unless we unload one of the big contracts for an expiring (Murph, Junior, Tinsley), we will not be big players in Free Agency next year. Any major acquisitions will come through the Draft, trades, or the MLE.

EDIT: I should note that all of the figures above are prior to looking at JJ's cap hold or re-signing him. The same is true with Rasho, McBob, Graham, and Baston



Count - assuming we wait to extend Danny and Jack until later next summer, and we do not make anymore moves, how much money will we have next summer to hit FA with before we hit the cap??? Let's also assume we do not get an expiring for tinsley, have a 1st rounder at a starting salary of say 1.5 million, and the cap increases by the same % next summer as it did this summer.

I'm taking the approach that we use our room under the cap to sign a FA and then go over the cap to resign Danny & Jack. I know they have cap hold numbers though.

I'm trying to gauge what type of FA we could get.

Thanks


Lets also assume Jeff was extended for 4.0 million per season

Jeff was will probably be about $6.1 next year, per reports, so we'll be around $48 in guaranteed contracts (assuming Tinsley's contract or it's equivalent). In order to retain Danny & JJ's rights, there will be capholds of $7mm and $6mm, respectively. Therefore, if we intend to keep both (as you suggest), we'll still effectively be at $61mm..at or around the cap.

We basically would be able to sign someone using the MLE, or about $6mm starting salary.


Can we have count do a sticky cap thread and update it as the roster changes?

That way we can direct this there.

Let me see what I can do...(I'll put the thread together, but it's somebody else's call on the sticky.)




Lets also assume Jeff was extended for 4.0 million per season

Jeff was will probably be about $6.1 next year, per reports, so we'll be around $48 in guaranteed contracts (assuming Tinsley's contract or it's equivalent). In order to retain Danny & JJ's rights, there will be capholds of $7mm and $6mm, respectively. Therefore, if we intend to keep both (as you suggest), we'll still effectively be at $61mm..at or around the cap.

We basically would be able to sign someone using the MLE, or about $6mm starting salary.


Can we have count do a sticky cap thread and update it as the roster changes?

That way we can direct this there.

Let me see what I can do...(I'll put the thread together, but it's somebody else's call on the sticky.)

Section #02: Abbreviations & Acronyms

01.02.01 - TPTB - The Powers That Be - Whomever at that time is in the front office of the Pacers, Colts, or whatever team is being discussed.

Section #03: References

01.03.01 - Burlington Coat Factory - Several forum parties from 2003-2007 took place at Briggsy's Pizza King in Castleton. Briggy's was a small building located on the outskirts of the parking lot of the nearby Burlington Coat Factory.

The summer forum party of 2004 took place on the day in which it was announced that Al Harrington had been traded to the Atlanta Hawks for Stephen Jackson.

One of the party members, a poster by the name of Tim, was well known as a very strong supporter of Harrington at that time. Ironically, prior to the trade announcement, he had already passionately explained his position on Harrington to the other party members earlier that evening. Tim appeared to be dejected after the news broke.

As the party was winding down, the remaining party members were standing outside in the parking lot to conclude the evening. When Tim finally decided to leave, he took off in his vehicle heading directly at the Burlington Coat Factory. From the point of view of the remaining party members, Tim appeared to be failing to apply the brakes on his vehicle as he drew closer and closer to the BCF.

In jest, the observers started to imply he was trying to commit suicide in his despair by yelling exclamations to Tim such as, "No!" "Don't do it!" and "Stop!" before he finally slowed down and turned parallel to the front of the BCF.

Since that time, members of Pacers Digest who understand the reference will occasionally threaten to drive into the Burlington Coat Factory if something they view as particularly unfavorable with the Pacers were to happen.

01.03.02 - Going PFFL - Briefly, PFFL = Pacer Fan For Life.

He was an avid pacer fan and a poster at the Star Forum; probably from the very beginning. His posts were memorable not so much for basketball insights but for their humor and a seemingly endless collection of hilariously funny, personal anecdotes.

One thing he was very passionate about was that Isiah Thomas was a terrible coach. There were many debates about this fact, and after the last playoff disaster at the end of the 2002-03 season PFFL was absolutely convinced that an Isiah firing was inevitable. He felt so strongly about it that he vowed to give up on his life-long love of the team if Isiah was not fired.

Well, Donnie Walsh gave Isiah the old public "vote of confidence".

PFFL was furious- that night on the forum he, "went PFFL."

Now, he was known for his humor, stories, cleverness, and not for any huge temper, but he came onto the forum and berated the Pacers organization with every 4-letter word you can think of; basically begging to get banned. He was. Then he went on his wife's account and did the same thing; getting the IP banned. The posts all got deleted fairly quickly.

Of course, a few months later Larry Bird came on board, and Isiah was immediately fired. PFFL briefly appeared on Pacers Digest back in August/September 2003, but quickly disappeared again and has not been seen since. "Going PFFL" is a total all-out burst of rage that apparently ends your fandom forever.

Of course, over the years, many here felt attached to him for all of his funny moments and stories (guys like Peck and Skaut_Ech can more attest to this), but he dropped off the Earth to never return. Now and then, someone here thinks a new Star poster might be him, but it never seems to fit. When you go PFFL, apparently the rage is permanent, even if the cause of the rage disappears.

01.03.03 - Guess The Score Contest (From Doug / RoboDoug) - Doug put together a terrific FAQ for his Guess The Score Contest:


What is the "Guess the Score" Contest?

It's a contest to guess the score of each Pacers game. Duh.

How do I play?

There will be an official guess thread posted for each game. Make a post in that thread with your guess. Right before the game, the thread will be 'closed' and the guesses listed. After the game, the guesses will be scored and a winner posted.

What format do I use for my guess?

The first two numbers in your post are taken as your score. The text block immediately preceding the numbers is used to determine which team the number goes with. If the text block contains "Ind" or "Pacers", then the number after it is assumed to be the Pacers' score. Failing that, the parser tends to take the second number as the Pacers score but might not do that every time. Better to be on safe side. Also, formatting such as colors and bold and quotes and smilies and such can throw off RoboDoug. Use at your own risk.

That sounds confusing. Can I have some examples?

Sure. Here are some good ones:

Pacers 88
Knicks 87

Pacers-88,Knicks-87

Indy 103-83

Pacers 103
Bad guys 102

Knicks 87, Pacers 83

And here are some bad ones:

88-87 Pacers

Good guys 88
bad guys 87

Last time they played it was 88-87, it will be a higher-scoring game this time, so I'll go Pacers 93, Knicks 88.

Knicks win 90-82.

Pacers lose 90-82

90 Pacers
82 Knicks

How do I win?

The winner is the poster with the lowest 'OffBy'.

What's an 'OffBy' and how is it calculated?

'OffBy' is the total number of points your guess was 'off by'. It is calculated by comparing your guess for each team with their actual score. The difference between your picks for each team and their real score is added together. That is your "off by". Lowest wins. You pick Pacers 90 Knicks 80. The real score is Knicks 95 Pacers 81. You are off by 24. (90-81) + (95-80). Total score does not mater. Getting the winner correct does not matter.

What's the tie-breaker?

Nothing. A tie is a tie. We've had co-champions before.

I guessed it exactly right. Do I get a bonus?

Congratulations. No. Unless you consider having your victory listed in bold font a bonus.

I made my guess before tip-off, but the thread was already closed to guesses! Can you add it?

No. Manually adding guesses is a pain in the butt.

The thread wasn't closed before the game. Can I make a guess?

Sometimes a network or computer problem can keep the thread from getting closed on time. Please don't make a guess after game time. I'll have to remove it by hand. I hate that.

Can I make multiple guesses?

You can, but RoboDoug only counts the second one.

That's not my guess! What happened?

If you made a second post in the guess thread, quoting another poster, RoboDoug might have picked up the quoted guess. Or you made a post with something that RoboDoug though was a guess.

When are the guess threads posted?

Usually 2 days before a game.

When are the guess threads closed?

Approximately 15 minutes before the game start time.

I made my guess before the 'thread closed' post, where is it?

You might have made your guess in a format RoboDoug doesn't understand. It's also possible you made your guess after RoboDoug read the guesses, but before he posted them.

What do I win?

Nothing. Sorry. The recognition of your peers will have to do.

Nothing?

Well, actually I usually make a 'plaque' for the season champions, one that's suitable for using as an avatar. You might have seen a few of them.

How is the winner for the season determined?

The poster who as won the most contests for a given season is the winner.

Who's won?

2002-2003: SycamoreKen
2003-2004: RoboDoug
2004-2005: Burtrem Redneck
2005-2006: peacers, RoboDoug
2006-2007: tora tora
2007-2008: Will Galen, RoboDoug

I want more detail than a list of winners! Do you have anything more?

Full stats are available.

2002-2003: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/02-03/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/02-03/stats.html)
2003-2004: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/03-04/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/03-04/stats.html)
2004-2005: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/04-05/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/04-05/stats.html)
2005-2006: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/05-06/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/05-06/stats.html)
2006-2007: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/06-07/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/06-07/stats.html)
2007-2008: http://uk1.able-towers.com/~doug/robodoug/07-08/stats.html (http://uk1.able-towers.com/%7Edoug/robodoug/07-08/stats.html)

What's the 'WillsGame' column?

It just indicates if you picked the correct winner in the game.

What's 'WillsGame' used for?

Nothing. One year Will Galen decided to run a little contest where posted would guess the correct winner of the game. Some people enjoyed it, so I decided to would record the winner and maybe automate that. I never did.

Who is RoboDoug?

RoboDoug is a computer program. Really.

Why didn't RoboDoug record my guess?

There's only a limited number of guess formats that RoboDoug can understand. He's a computer program, remember. I tried to make him flexible enough to understand most common formats, but the number of possible formats is quite large. Sorry. If you want to get 'cute' with your guess and RoboDoug doesn't understand it, that's life.

Can I send RoboDoug my guess via email or PM?

No. He doesn't get email and he doesn't read PMs. He hates you.

What's RoboDoug written in?

Java. With a MySQL database behind it.

Who wrote RoboDoug?

Doug. Duh. I still run and maintain him.

How does RoboDoug come up with his guesses?

I don't know.

What do you mean you don't know?

I programmed his guessing algorithms using Genetic Programming, then 'evolved' the guessing logic. I know what data he uses, but not how.

Genetic Algorithms? Why not a neural network?

I tried them. It wasn't accurate enough. I couldn't seem to find a network architecture that worked well.

How long has this contest been running?

Since at least the 2001-2002 season.

Who appointed you "Guess the Score" Czar?

Nobody, really. Somebody, I don't remember who, did the contest on RATS in 2001. The next year, nobody stepped up to run it, so I took over posting and scoring the contest.

Why did you write a computer program to do it?

Because doing it by hand is a royal pain in the butt. The first year I used a spreadsheet and did it 'by hand'. It was very time consuming. I had some new technologies I wanted to learn, so I figured this would be a good exercise to learn them.

Why don't you take RoboDoug to Vegas?

He was evolved toward minimizing 'off-by', not beating point spreads. That's a different problem.

So re-write him to use point spreads!

I have to admit of I've thought about that a couple of times. My ego says I'm good enough to do that - at the very least it is both an interesting and difficult problem. My favorite type. But, it IS a very difficult problem and would really be time consuming. And my gut feeling is that the margins would be too thin to make the risk/reward worth it.

Why don't you add 'this cool feature' to RoboDoug?

If it's a good idea, I might. I've got a list of things I want to do, though, so it might be a while.


01.03.04 - Jerseys - What's the difference between a Replica, Swingman, and Authentic? - Duke Dynamite explains:


NBA JERSEYS 101


Replica:

http://pacersgear.com/images/products/0555whtrep_250.jpg

Thin, dazzle mesh. Official team graphics and numbers iron-screened on. Cheap, low quaility. Great for small kids. I have also found that these replica jerseys, (ver since Reebok took over NBA merchandising now Adidas, they bought Reebok) all have a "vest" shouldering to them, instead of a tank top look.

Swingman:

http://pacersgear.com/images/products/33whiteswingman_250.jpg

Thicker mesh, tackle-twil (sewn) lettering and numbering. Numbers and letters are a single layer of the colors. Good price for more realistic look. $75-$85 depending on type and player (I always buy these. They are great looking and inexpensive)

Authentic:

http://pacersgear.com/images/products/0533authenticgold_250.jpg

Same material used in on-court uniforms. Multi-layer tackle-twill lettering and numbers. Everthing is sewn on individually. $160

All prices are adult sizing.

All returning players have a jersey in each color, replica, swingman, and authentic. Except for Diener, which only comes in Yellow replica, yellow and navy swingman, and yellow authentic.

Swingman jerseys come as each player, at least in Navy. All new players as of this year have a replica jersey and a navy swingman jersey. That is it.

Each jersey has the NBA logo sewn into the left chest and the Adidas logo sewn into the right. A "jocktag" appears sewn into the bottom-left of each jersey.




01.03.05 - RATS - Refers to the Indianapolis Star Message Board or Forum. Rats is from spelling Star backwards. It is considered to be a demeaning reference to that message board.

Item #02: Forum Etiquette

Item #03: NBA/CBA Information

03.01 - Free Agents -

03.01.01 - Restricted Free Agents & Bird Rights -

03.01.02 - Unrestricted Free Agents -

03.01.03 - Lower Level Exception -

03.01.04 - Mid Level Exception -

03.02 - Player Salaries -

03.02.01 - Minimum Salary -

03.02.02 - Maximum Salary -

03.03 - Team Salaries -

03.03.01 - Salary Cap -

03.03.02 - Luxury Tax -

03.04 - Trades -

03.04.01 - Trade Exception -

Item #04: Statistics

========================The Pacers Digest F.A.Q.========================

Details:

I intend for this to be largely if not completely member-driven. If I feel I have something to contribute I will, but primarily you guys will build this F.A.Q. from the ground up.

We will divide it into various topics, and I will do my best to keep it organized and easy to read.

This would be the place to answer those persistent questions about the CBA, including the hot question of, "Can we or can we not combine our trade exception with Player X in a trade?"

It can also be questions about the forum itself. I am not going to make this into a joke, so please don't come in just to be silly. But sometimes newer folks have questions about our forum etiquette, references, abbreviations, or history, and I think that has a place here, too.

What I'm asking you to do is make a reply in this thread that is factually accurate, easy to read and understand, and with zero or a minimum of grammatic mistakes (I'm not going to be super strict on this, but it needs to not look sloppy) to explain a topic that frequently or consistently appears on Pacers Digest.

For example, count55 may want to just copy and paste (or touch up if he thinks it needs it) his explanations of CBA rules regarding trade exceptions and retaining the rights of free agents.

Someone else might want to explain what things like IMHO or TPTB mean.

Someone else might explain, "Let's please move on."

Someone else might explain, "Why can't we just cut Jamaal Tinsley like the Colts cut Ed Johnson?"

I will then take what is submitted and edit it into this post above what I am typing now.

Doug
09-19-2008, 10:32 PM
IMHO, "IMHO" is a good example of something that doesn't need to be in the FAQ. TPTP *is* a good example of something that does. RATS would be another. And PFFL.

I can contribute a Guess-the-Score / RoboDoug section. I've been meaning to do a FAQ for him anyway.

The whole "Forum Party" thing can go under "Forum History".

There might be some bits of folklore (ReggieRocks) that are just too obscure for the FAQ.

See you at the game!

SycamoreKen
09-19-2008, 10:40 PM
TPTB - The Powers That Be - Whomever is in the Pacers, Colts, or what ever team is being discussed front office at that time.

The Season That Is Not Mentioned (however it is termed) would also be a good subjext to be defined.

Anthem
09-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Is there a place for this?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2871047971_e8248ccee6_o.jpg

Hicks
09-19-2008, 11:13 PM
IMHO, "IMHO" is a good example of something that doesn't need to be in the FAQ. TPTP *is* a good example of something that does. RATS would be another. And PFFL.

I can contribute a Guess-the-Score / RoboDoug section. I've been meaning to do a FAQ for him anyway.

The whole "Forum Party" thing can go under "Forum History".

There might be some bits of folklore (ReggieRocks) that are just too obscure for the FAQ.

See you at the game!

I agree on "IMHO", but I think Forum Parties could be their own little item. It'd work either way, really.

Hicks
09-19-2008, 11:14 PM
Yes, ChicagoJ will need to explain "The Season We Do Not Discuss"

I'd still argue we probably have "The Other Season We Do Not Discuss", but then again we have to because it was also Reggie's swan song. So I guess we'll just leave it at the one.

Hicks
09-19-2008, 11:15 PM
Is there a place for this?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2871047971_e8248ccee6_o.jpg

No, but Im open to other suggestion's based on whatever you guy's can come up with.

Anthem
09-20-2008, 01:24 AM
No, but Im open to other suggestion's based on whatever you guy's can come up with.
Don't make me hurt you.

King Tuts Tomb
09-20-2008, 01:59 AM
Might want to add that any topic is open for discussion except race. Bringing up any subject pertaining to how the league might be affected by it's racial make-up means the thread will be immediately closed.

Hicks
09-20-2008, 09:19 AM
Might want to add that any topic is open for discussion except race. Bringing up any subject pertaining to how the league might be affected by it's racial make-up means the thread will be immediately closed.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point or not, but racial discussions quickly enter the realm of other heated discussions that aren't allowed on PD that usually tie in with politics.

This is not the thread for this kind of thing.

Hicks
09-20-2008, 09:28 AM
In regards to forum etiquette, I was thinking of things like making sure to check the front page to see if a news item or topic already has a thread started.

Or how it's annoying when someone says they read something or heard something like a rumor, but fails to even mention where they read or heard it.

Bball
09-20-2008, 10:57 AM
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point or not, but racial discussions quickly enter the realm of other heated discussions that aren't allowed on PD that usually tie in with politics.

This is not the thread for this kind of thing.

It is probably a good suggestion for the FAQ with an explanation similar to what you just said. Something along the lines of:
While discussions of racial components aren't prohibited per se', they do tend to quickly enter the realm of heated discussions and as such tend to become political discussions. It has been decided that PD prefers political discussions be held elsewhere where that is more appropriate. PD is a sports forum.

You could also like Pig Nash's UNPD in it....

It could fit in forum etiquette or forum history, depending on how you wanted to do it.

.02,
Bball

Hicks
09-20-2008, 11:48 AM
True, it could. I wonder how stuff like that will undermine the Rules section, though. Then again, maybe it's more appropriate here.

Naptown_Seth
09-20-2008, 12:27 PM
CAP EXCEPTIONS
Trade Exceptions, MLE/Mid-Level Exception, etc

These are allowed EXCEPTIONS to the rule that you cannot add any more salary to the roster once you go over the cap limit. They are NOT tradeable assets. Each works as a SPACE in your cap that can take on some amount of salary.

TE (trade exception) - when you make a trade you have the right, by exception rules, to acquire in return up to 125%+100K of the salary you sent out in total (no matter how many teams were involved). This is itself a TRADE EXCEPTION since your salary level is going to increase despite being over the cap.

However, you have the option to forfeit this 25% extra in exchange for completing the trade up to a year later. This is what is commonly called a "trade exception" even though either version is a true TE.

In essence you retain the right to maintain the exact same level of salary for up to one year from the trade. This means that if you take back less than you sent out, passing on the 25% extra option, you can still bring back in the difference as an EXISTING CONTRACT (plural too, if you fill the hole with smaller contracts).

This is still a portion of the previous trade and can NOT BE COMBINED with any new trades. So you can't add the PLAYER X salary to a TE amount to get a larger total salary hole in the cap.

Typical use of a trade exception is to do dual trades in which one portion involves sending "nothing" (rights to a non-contracted player is normal) for a contract of equal or lesser value to your TE, and then also trading whatever other players need to be involved to get both sides to agree to do the TE trade.

Since a TE is the completion of a trade it can NOT be used to sign players. You can acquire previously existing contracts but can not create new ones (signing a free agent). Another example of an existing contract that doesn't involve a trade would be to "sign" a player on waivers as this is simply the team agreeing to take on that existing contract. Orien Greene was an example of this type of move.

MLE/Mid Levels and Minimum Level exceptions can NOT be used in trades. These are exceptions/holes that can only be used to create NEW CONTRACTS. These exist to allow some player movement which benefits the players' association as well as ensuring that all teams can field a full roster regardless of their cap situation.

Resigning your own players, Bird's rights, etc are yet another example of an EXCEPTION to the rule that you can't be over the cap.

Finally, the salary cap figure for each team in the off season includes HOLDS ON THE CAP for all of these possible options, as long as the team retains the rights to use them.

A team might not have salary that hits the cap level, but all TEs, MLEs, and rights to resign your own players require holds against the cap of appropriate amounts. These holds are added to the actual salary and often keep a team well over the cap limit.

A team must renounce the rights to use any/all of those in order to have them removed from their cap figure. But in doing so the team gives up the rights to use them later. This is especially problematic with Bird's rights as it gives the home team an advantage over other potential suitors when the player becomes a free agent; see Danny Granger for a current example.

We have come to think of the cap as soft and/or meaningless because of the active use of all these exceptions, but in fact it's a hard cap paired with exceptions that were created to resolve problems or maintain some financial options for players.

Many of the creative ideas online fans come up with go directly against the spirit of these exceptions and those abuses have already been thought of or previously abused and now have rules in place to prevent them being used that way. So when you wonder "why can't they..." it's probably because of that reason - abuses by teams.

Naptown_Seth
09-20-2008, 12:30 PM
Some stuff from before I got here...

Badger - Kravitz (someone should explain the origin)

Pancake Rabbit - Montieth (again, explanation)

Sunshiners/Darksiders

JayRedd
09-20-2008, 12:54 PM
Naptime - Naptown_Seth (no need to explain the origin)

Naptown_Seth
09-20-2008, 01:40 PM
Let's not forget to explain the "Hating JayRedd" mood icon while we are at it.

Speaking of annoying posters, let's go ahead and run StankoLover up the flagpole too, as long as LG33 doesn't mind (not that they are in any way associated).

Let's not forget to also bite my shiny metal a** while we are at it.

Uh oh, we are getting into comic derail here...but then we definitely need a "dry humor and why new posters need to be aware and not try it out themselves for a few weeks" FAQ entry too. ;)


edit - I think some btown, basement, and other assorted references might also need to be clarified before PD gets a link over at the NAMBLA website.

Putnam
09-20-2008, 02:54 PM
http://corporate.burlingtoncoatfactory.com/employment/store_shot14.jpg

Drewtone
09-20-2008, 03:25 PM
A few that come to mind that might be worth explanation:

1.) The Core (old school posters from the Snooze)

2.) "Going PFFL"

3.) Sassan

4.) 'Counting'

5.) McKey/Satan or Satan/McKey

Doug
09-20-2008, 06:14 PM
5.) McKey/Satan or Satan/McKey
"The Popeye speech" (I am what I am) should be added with McKey.

Is there an entry for what not to say to Scot Pollard in a restroom?

LoneGranger33
09-20-2008, 06:32 PM
Is there a place for this?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2871047971_e8248ccee6_o.jpg


I think he's referring to Graham Marnatsi and in that case - not a redickulous thought.

count55
09-21-2008, 09:38 AM
Seth explained TE's in full earlier, but here are two "rules of thumb" that, if you remember, will make you correct 99% of the time when it comes to TE:

1. TE's are salary slots, and as such, cannot be combined with any other salaries (players) or salary slots (other exceptions) to create a larger salary slot. If you are contemplating asking a question in which the TE is used to "balance" a deal, or you in some way use the TE as a part of the plan to get a player who is making more than the TE, THEN THE ANSWER IS ALMOST CERTAINLY "NO".

2. The TE will most likely be allowed to expire by the team holding it. In the vast majority of cases, that team will value the salary/cap/tax relief more than any player it could acquire. The Harrington deal was a very rare (perhaps even the lone) exception. Golden State allowed the $10+mm TE from the Richardson deal expire, and Denver is sure to allow the $10mm TE from the Camby deal lapse. Also, since most trades are done between two teams over the cap and are created by the 125% rule, most TE's are too small to be useful in any meaningful way.

count55
09-21-2008, 09:59 AM
Since a TE is the completion of a trade it can NOT be used to sign players. You can acquire previously existing contracts but can not create new ones (signing a free agent). Another example of an existing contract that doesn't involve a trade would be to "sign" a player on waivers as this is simply the team agreeing to take on that existing contract. Orien Greene was an example of this type of move.

Actually, I don't think a TE was used for Orien Greene. He was acquired under the "Minimum Player Exception". Teams can offer minimum salary contracts regardless of their cap position.

Also, the "Minimum Player Exception" (MPE) can play an odd role in trades, and the creation of TE's.

First, any team over the cap can acquire a player on an MPE without having to meet the 125% rule. For example, the Pacers could trade Josh McRoberts to the Celtics (also over the cap) for a 2nd Round Draft Pick.

Second, when MPE players are dealt, they count for the team sending them out, but essentially are ignored by the team recieving them when calculating the credit for the TE. In the case of the Portland trade this summer, it worked like this:

The Draft Picks (actually, by the time of the trade, they were the player rights to Rush & Bayless) had $0 salary cap value. Ike was scheduled to make $2.9mm, so Portland had to send out at least $2.4mm to meet the 125% rule. Jack will make $2.0, and Portland threw in McBob, scheduled to make the league min of $0.7mm. For Portland, it counted at $2.7mm. However, for the Pacers in regards to creation of the TE, McBob was ignored. Therefore, the Pacers sent out $2.9mm and only got back $2.0mm, which is why there is a $0.9mm TE created from that trade.

Naptown_Seth
09-21-2008, 12:01 PM
Actually, I don't think a TE was used for Orien Greene. He was acquired under the "Minimum Player Exception". Teams can offer minimum salary contracts regardless of their cap position.
No, Greene was taken while still on waivers (from the Celtics) and therefore still with an active contract. I think it was the James Jones TE space they used to get him. He did not clear waivers and maintained his original contract when the Pacers claimed him. Greene was not making the MIN either.


The first year of his contract will be fully guaranteed according to the source, while the 2nd year is partially guaranteed and the 3rd year is a team option. The Celtics had to dip into their Mid-Level Exception to lock him up for the three year deal, as Greene will earn more than the NBA minimum.http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/36779/20050725/orien_greene_signs_3_year_$18_million_contract_wit h_celtics/


Good stuff on the way the MPE works on the creation of TEs though, I didn't realize or think of that.



WAIVERS
For the less savvy CBA people (thus the FAQ) when a player is waived there is a time frame in which his contract still exists (48 hours in season, 1 week in the off season). If a team claims him during this period his contract comes off the original team's books and goes to the new team, basically like a trade for nothing in return (but salary relief).

However, if he goes through the waiver period without being claimed then the original team is still financially on the hook and the contract is "dead" otherwise. Now a team can sign a new contract with that player for whatever amount they'd like, he's a free agent at this point. The original team gets the chance for SLIGHT financial relief but typically it's not much.

So if you waive Tinsley no one will claim him because they'll get him much cheaper after he clears. Therefore it doesn't help the Pacers financially/cap. OTOH if you had him on a great contract that everyone considered a decent deal then he'd never get through waivers and you'd be off the hook....for a guy everyone thinks is a decent bargain (so why'd you waive him?).

The waivers are not a good way to dump contracts. Greene had to do with potential, problems in Boston and a moderately low deal worth taking a risk on to those not convinced that he wouldn't make it in the NBA.

Also to claim someone off waivers you need a CONTRACT HOLE, thus the TE for Greene. Being under the cap, having a disability exception or the player making the min also work as ways of claiming the player.

Finally there are rules preventing teams from resigning a waived player that they traded away. There is a 20-30 day window after the new team waives him before you can resign him. This helps prevent "one way" trading in which you essentially give up nothing to get a new player.


MPE (Minimum Exceptions)
As Count and I have alluded to already, these are an UNLIMITED resource and regardless of your cap status you can claim or deal for as many MPE deals as you want. The purpose of this exception is to ensure that teams can maintain a roster count. An MPE can be used on a waiver guy (making the MIN), trading a pick for a guy making the MIN, signing FAs for the MIN, etc.

Naptown_Seth
09-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I think he's referring to Graham Marnatsi and in that case - not a redickulous thought.
Just when I finally get to hating you proper, you pull me right back in. Damn you and Redd. I applaud you for maintaining "not a redickulous thought" which I'd like to see become as solid here as "going PFFL" or "that's how I live my life now".


Putty, I kinda felt too uncomfortable to mention BCF, and I wasn't even there. I hate to laugh at the misfortunes of others. Well, mostly.

Putnam
09-21-2008, 12:35 PM
Putty, I kinda felt too uncomfortable to mention BCF, and I wasn't even there. I hate to laugh at the misfortunes of others. Well, mostly.

Well, that marks you as more of an insider than me. I know most of the insider terms, but allusions Burlington Coat Factory still just baffle me. If there is cause for embarrassment to anyone, I apologize for mentioning it.


Question: Would there be any value in a section in the FAQ about statistics and data? Folks tend to hate on stats pretty strongly, sometimes without know what what the stat purports to tell. We could explain the +/- and the PER for starters.

LoneGranger33
09-21-2008, 12:56 PM
Could we also perhaps limit Naptime to that section permanently?

count55
09-21-2008, 01:26 PM
No, Greene was taken while still on waivers (from the Celtics) and therefore still with an active contract. I think it was the James Jones TE space they used to get him. He did not clear waivers and maintained his original contract when the Pacers claimed him. Greene was not making the MIN either.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/36779/20050725/orien_greene_signs_3_year_$18_million_contract_wit h_celtics/



Odd thing about Orien's contract: He was paid exactly the league minimum. However, the MPE is only available for contracts up to two years in length. The Celtics offered a three year deal (at the league min salary) to Orien, therefore, they had to use part of their MLE.

What I'm not sure of his how the league would've viewed Orien's contract at the time the Pacers claimed him off of waivers. With the exception of the actual establishment of the MPE, Coon's FAQ only talks about players "making the league minimum." Orien's contract, at the time we claimed him, only had two years left. In that situation, I wonder if we (or any other team) could've exercised the MPE to acquire him, or if we ended up actually needing the TE.

Hicks
09-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Question: Would there be any value in a section in the FAQ about statistics and data? Folks tend to hate on stats pretty strongly, sometimes without know what what the stat purports to tell. We could explain the +/- and the PER for starters.

Sure. Why not?

King Tuts Tomb
09-21-2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point or not, but racial discussions quickly enter the realm of other heated discussions that aren't allowed on PD that usually tie in with politics.


Fair enough, it's your forum and you're free do with it as you please.

But not being able to discuss issues of race on a forum dedicated to professional basketball seems awfully constrictive and unnecessary. It weakens the discussion and makes for a worse site overall.

I won't mention it again because it obviously makes the mods uncofortable.

Hicks
09-21-2008, 03:58 PM
Fair enough, it's your forum and you're free do with it as you please.

But not being able to discuss issues of race on a forum dedicated to professional basketball seems awfully constrictive and unnecessary. It weakens the discussion and makes for a worse site overall.

I won't mention it again because it obviously makes the mods uncofortable.

Fair enough.

Doug
09-21-2008, 09:44 PM
For what it's worth, I never really thought 'RATS' was meant to be demeaning. More of just a cute nickname with a bit of teasing as opposed to an outright insult.

Hicks
09-21-2008, 10:37 PM
The way I see it: not all insults are a 10 on the scale. I'd say this is more like a 2.

RamBo_Lamar
09-22-2008, 08:30 AM
Something I've unsuccessfully been trying to find info on lately and would
like to see explained is the use of "Cash Considerations".

There certainly has to be more to "Cash Considerations" than just paying
cash to another team as an incentive to get a deal done.

What are the restrictions, if any, on the use of "Cash Considerations" in getting
a deal done?

When can it be used?

Any limitations on how much can be used?

Must the amount paid be reported to the league?

Is it counted against the salary cap?

Hicks
09-22-2008, 08:32 AM
I believe the limit is 3 million, but I don't think it counts against the cap. I'm sure it must be reported.

I think it can always be used, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are times it's not allowed.

RamBo_Lamar
09-22-2008, 08:50 AM
Thank you Hicks.

One other question - can Cash Considerations be used to balance out a
trade if the players to be traded salaries are not not close enough to
matching (is it within 125%?), or is it simply an "incentive" to get the deal done?

Thanks

Doug
09-22-2008, 09:05 AM
Isn't there already a pretty good Salary Cap FAQ out there? Are we 'reinventing the wheel' by including a lot of detail in ours?

count55
09-22-2008, 09:12 AM
Thank you Hicks.

One other question - can Cash Considerations be used to balance out a
trade if the players to be traded salaries are not not close enough to
matching (is it within 125%?), or is it simply an "incentive" to get the deal done?

Thanks

No. Cash considerations are not included in Salary Cap calculations.

RamBo_Lamar
09-22-2008, 09:15 AM
Isn't there already a pretty good Salary Cap FAQ out there? Are we 'reinventing the wheel' by including a lot of detail in ours?


Yes - my apologies. I wasn't googling correctly to find what I was looking
for.

Tried searching for "nba salary cap faq" and found this one which appears to
be pretty inclusive:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Anthem
09-22-2008, 09:23 AM
Yes - my apologies. I wasn't googling correctly to find what I was looking
for.

Tried searching for "nba salary cap faq" and found this one which appears to
be pretty inclusive:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
Yeah, that's the one. Coon is the man.

RamBo_Lamar
09-22-2008, 09:26 AM
Yowser! Here is a quote from that salary cap faq previously mentioned:

( http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm )



The Collective Bargaining Agreement is a very long legal contract between the league and the Players Association, and is written in dense legalese. It is my hope that this FAQ answers all your questions. However, if you really want the CBA, it is available from the Players Association's web site at http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles.php (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles.php). At the time of this writing, bound copies of the CBA are not available from the league office.
Unfortunately, the CBA doesn't answer every question. The NBA, like most organizations, has by-laws, which are separate and apart from whatever contracts it may make with other entities such as the Players Association. Many of the rules are contained in the NBA By-Laws, and in a third document, the NBA Constitution. While it is possible for the public to obtain the CBA, the league office says the By-Laws and Constitution are absolutely off-limits.


After looking at this and glancing over the rest of the FAQ am coming to
realize how incredibly complex this stuff is!

JayRedd
09-22-2008, 09:34 AM
Yeah...pretty much.

Getting caught up in trade exceptions, waiver claims and renouncing free agent rights is pretty counter productive. They all happen so infrequently and have such little real-world usage that the complexities of them are not really worth knowing. The trade exception thing seems to be picking up a little bit Leaguewide, but there are still only a handful of meaningful deals in NBA history that actually made use of them, with out blockbuster acquisition of future Hall of Famer Al Harrington topping the list.

Understanding the annual cap number, luxury tax, MLE/LLE, maximum/minimum salaries, Bird Rights, and RFA vs. FA are really the only things even a hardcore fan really ought to know unless he or she plans to write a thesis on the topic, which count55 clearly has.

Hicks
09-22-2008, 10:27 AM
I agree that this FAQ should only cover the basics of the CBA as JayRedd is listing: the annual cap number, luxury tax, MLE/LLE, maximum/minimum salaries, Bird Rights, and RFA vs. FA.

I think beyond that we should just point to Coon's CBA site.

Hicks
09-22-2008, 10:48 AM
I've just added several placeholders for the basics regarding free agency, trades, and the salary cap.

I'm looking for people to fill those in.

I'm going to go back over the Trade Exception pieces written earlier and see if I think it needs to be condensed or not, then I'll put that up.

As always, remember this FAQ is meant for newbies and moderates first and foremost when it comes to background knowledge coming in.

count55
09-22-2008, 11:24 AM
I actually had thought Larry Coon's FAQ was linked at the top of the board here, but that's on RealGM. Though I've quoted him extensively (with credit), I got out of the practice of linking to it, because I thought it was already done.

The only additional thing that I think people should understand is the idea of cap holds and renouncing free agents. These are things that impact the league every single year. They have not been relevant to us to this point because we have always been over the cap. However, with more and more of our large contracts approaching expiration, there will be a significant difference between our payroll as listed on Shamsports and our actual available capspace. This particular issue has created a great deal of debate/confusion about plans for next summer.

JayRedd
09-22-2008, 12:16 PM
Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.

I mean, I'm not quite as big of a CBA head as you, but I've read it and been through Larry Coon's thing at least a half-dozen times and there are still minute details of the Gilbert Arenas rules, the "Over-36 rule"
and even what you can do with trade exceptions that escape me. And I can honestly say none of these things really have any practical barring on my rooting for a team or understanding what a GM will end up doing to acquire players 99.5% of the time. I'm still curious cause I'm a dork, but there's no real reason to know it.

But what I do often see this minutiae do is confuse people and divert otherwise production hoops conversations into the "But what if we trade Johnny No-Handles to the Bobcats for a trade exception first, then draft Stevie Hops-A-Lot and package him with a 2011 second rounder and the TE to the Bulls for Tyrus Thomas and a deep dish pizza. All we need to do is renounce our rights to Rik Smits and then add some cash considerations. It works under the CBA and I have no idea why Bird isn't pursuing this option."

Basically...all this stuff clutters the discussion and it will never (or very, very rarely anyway) happen.

Also...This whole post has nothing to do with the PD FAQ really...just saying that despite all the CBA offseason talk, very little of it is relevant and there are like 5-6 aspects that a fan should try to learn and fully understand before even attempting to bother with the fine print.

count55
09-22-2008, 12:44 PM
Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.



Cap holds and renouncing rights are basically two sides of the same coin, and that's more or less the context in which the renunciation should be understood. As far as big dollars, the Clips also renounced Maggette, who was making $7mm, and I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think the Kings renounced the rights to Bonzi Wells a couple years ago.

Truth be told, renouncing rights only becomes an issue when a team has a payroll that is under the cap. Since most teams operate over the cap most of the time, renouncing rights to players becomes a meaningless gesture. Even if they don't plan to re-sign the guy, they can keep the rights "just in case" w/o penalty (since they don't have any cap space anyway).

Hicks
09-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Cap holds, I agree on. Most people assume the "loop hole" of waiting to sign your own guy will allow you to beat the system. But...The system thought of that a while ago and added cap holds.

But as far as renouncing rights goes...When does this ever happen? Elton is the first guy making more than, say, $3 million I've can recall. To me, it seems like a one-time anomoly rather than something the average NBA enthusiast need concern themselves with.

I mean, I'm not quite as big of a CBA head as you, but I've read it and been through Larry Coon's thing at least a half-dozen times and there are still minute details of the Gilbert Arenas rules, the "Over-36 rule"
and even what you can do with trade exceptions that escape me. And I can honestly say none of these things really have any practical barring on my rooting for a team or understanding what a GM will end up doing to acquire players 99.5% of the time. I'm still curious cause I'm a dork, but there's no real reason to know it.

But what I do often see this minutiae do is confuse people and divert otherwise production hoops conversations into the "But what if we trade Johnny No-Handles to the Bobcats for a trade exception first, then draft Stevie Hops-A-Lot and package him with a 2011 second rounder and the TE to the Bulls for Tyrus Thomas and a deep dish pizza. All we need to do is renounce our rights to Rik Smits and then add some cash considerations. It works under the CBA and I have no idea why Bird isn't pursuing this option."

Basically...all this stuff clutters the discussion and it will never (or very, very rarely anyway) happen.

Also...This whole post has nothing to do with the PD FAQ really...just saying that despite all the CBA offseason talk, very little of it is relevant and there are like 5-6 aspects that a fan should try to learn and fully understand before even attempting to bother with the fine print.

On the contrary, I think it DOES have to do with the PD FAQ because it helps me decide what is and is not appropriate for this FAQ.

JayRedd
09-22-2008, 12:59 PM
Okay.

I'd say deal with significant league issues first rather than worry about the details of something that has happened with two players in the recent LAC drama and, maybe, another time with Bonzi Wells several years ago. That doesn't really pass the "Frequently" caveat of the mission you're on, IMO. In terms of rank, renouncing rights rates about 6573* on priority list.














* (Understanding what Naptime means ranks second.)

cgg
09-22-2008, 02:50 PM
IMHO, "IMHO" is a good example of something that doesn't need to be in the FAQ. TPTP *is* a good example of something that does. RATS would be another. And PFFL.


What's PFFL?

BillS
09-22-2008, 03:37 PM
What's PFFL?

How soon they forget. :buddies::sad:

kester99
09-22-2008, 05:16 PM
I actually had thought Larry Coon's FAQ was linked at the top of the board here, but that's on RealGM.

He's here at the top under Links&Forums.

SycamoreKen
09-22-2008, 07:23 PM
How soon they forget. :buddies::sad:


He only has 224 posts. He never knew, which is more of a shame.

Doug
09-22-2008, 09:30 PM
You know, PFFL could most be a FAQ unto himself.

LoneGranger33
09-22-2008, 10:01 PM
Jermainiac/Dat Dude should earn a spot in our historic posters list as well.

Also, I'd like to see Tinsley's brawl "clean-up" permanently recorded somewhere.

RamBo_Lamar
09-22-2008, 10:22 PM
You know, PFFL could most be a FAQ unto himself.

PFFL?

Would that be the Pakistani Flag Football League?

I haven't a clue either...

???

Doug
09-23-2008, 08:54 AM
I think some things are best left vague and mysterious...

Slick Pinkham
09-23-2008, 11:43 AM
Briefly, PFFL = Pacer Fan For Life.

He was an avid pacer fan and a poster at Rats probably from the very beginning. His posts were memorable not so much for basketball insights but for their humor and a seemingly endless collection of hilariously funny personal anecdotes.

One thing he was very passionate about was that Isiah Thomas was a terrible coach. There were many debates about this fact, and after the last playoff disaster at the end of the 2002-03 season PFFL was absolutely convinced that an Isiah firing was inevitable. As I recall, he felt so strongly about it that he vowed to give up on his life-long love of the team if Isiah was not fired.

Well, Donnie Walsh gave Isiah the old public "vote of confidence".

PFFL was furious- that night on the forum he "went PFFL"

Now he was known for his humor, stories, cleverness, and not for any huge temper. But... he came onto the forum and berated the Pacer organization with every 4-letter word you can think of, basically begging to get banned. He was. Then he went on his wife's account and did the same thing, getting the IP banned. Personally I didn't see this, because the posts all got deleted fairly quickly (overnight?) and that was apparently one night I was not on the forum.

Of course a few months later Larry Bird came on board and Isiah was immediately fired. PFFL never came back though. "Going PFFL" is a total all-out burst of rage that apparently ends your fandom forever.

Of course over the years many here felt attached to him for all the funny moments and stories (Guys like Peck and Scott can more attest to this), but he dropped off the Earth to never return. Now and then someone here thinks a new RATS poster might be him, but it never seems to fit. When you go PFFL, I guess the rage is permanent, even if the cause of the rage disappears.

Hicks
09-23-2008, 12:07 PM
You're very, very close to the mark, pacertom. I will paste that in and add the fact that he DID briefly appear on Pacers Digest waaaaaaaaay back in the early days. I'm talking August/September 2003. But he soon left again.

RamBo_Lamar
09-23-2008, 02:30 PM
That is truly the greatest story of a Pacer fan going ballistic I have ever read.

BRAVO pacertom!

Los Angeles
09-23-2008, 02:59 PM
Surely "Earl" comes up often enough to deserve mention here.

Anthem
09-23-2008, 03:02 PM
Surely "Earl" comes up often enough to deserve mention here.
Was just going to say that.

Slick Pinkham
09-23-2008, 03:25 PM
That is truly the greatest story of a Pacer fan going ballistic I have ever read.

BRAVO pacertom!

Thanks- As Hicks mentioned, I might be wrong on some of the details, since it happened in the summertime and I perhaps wasn't on the forum quite as often as some at the time, and didn't have the personal friendship with PFFL that some people (Peck, I believe?) had, or any contact in forum gatherings. I wasn't aware that he made a brief appearance on PD either, so perhaps someone else can take my beginnings of the story and flesh it out with more details, or recall some of his hilarious stories-- there was one that was something about a road trip to Philadelphia, in which he was making out with his wife (or future wife) in the stands, all while both were wearing Pacers gear and taking abuse from the typically obnoxious Philly fans.

Doug
09-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Thanks- As Hicks mentioned, I might be wrong on some of the details, since it happened in the summertime and I perhaps wasn't on the forum quite as often as some at the time, and didn't have the personal friendship with PFFL that some people (Peck, I believe?) had, or any contact in forum gatherings. I wasn't aware that he made a brief appearance on PD either, so perhaps someone else can take my beginnings of the story and flesh it out with more details, or recall some of his hilarious stories-- there was one that was something about a road trip to Philadelphia, in which he was making out with his wife (or future wife) in the stands, all while both were wearing Pacers gear and taking abuse from the typically obnoxious Philly fans.I think somebody got stabbed on the Philly trip.

Ah, the good ol' days.

Hicks
09-23-2008, 08:16 PM
Maybe there's room for this in the faq?

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7616/stopchatspeakho1fz0.gif

Okay. Enough already, please. I went along with the joking a bit, but this is not the thread for this.

Hicks
09-24-2008, 09:56 AM
By all means, push me further.

Doug
10-18-2008, 01:20 PM
Hicks, feel free to roll the guess the score FAQ I just posted into this one.

Hicks
10-18-2008, 01:21 PM
Hicks, feel free to roll the guess the score FAQ I just posted into this one.

That's exactly what I just offered to do in your thread before I read this. :)

Pacers
10-18-2008, 09:11 PM
As a n00b, I have a request. Can you insert all the nicknames for players that people use...at least current/past Pacers? I picked up most over time, but sometimes I read some and am left scratching my head.

Though I've never been accused of being a brainiac. :)

Hicks
10-18-2008, 09:29 PM
Anyone up for making a list?

duke dynamite
10-20-2008, 01:18 AM
Anyone up for making a list?
Other than the ones I've made or come to pick up, I don't think I could. Maybe during the season I could ask the players what nicknames they've had and I could post them as I go.

I sent an e-mail to my ticket rep to see if she could ask around for a list of nicknames of the players.

Hicks
10-20-2008, 01:40 AM
I don't think that's what he was asking about. I think he was asking about forum nicknames for players.

duke dynamite
10-20-2008, 11:17 AM
I don't think that's what he was asking about. I think he was asking about forum nicknames for players.
Oh well...

She said she'd try and do something anyway.

It will be fun to compare the names they were given by family, friends, teammates, etc. to the ones we've given them.

Pacers
10-20-2008, 05:59 PM
I don't think that's what he was asking about. I think he was asking about forum nicknames for players.

Bingo! :)

duke dynamite
10-20-2008, 06:44 PM
Bingo! :)
Like I said, oh well...lol

LoneGranger33
10-26-2008, 06:31 PM
Feisty (Foster), Hulk (David Harrison), and now Franchise (Roy Hibbert) are the only ones that come to mind. Although some people have been throwing around the Smooth for Dunleavy recently, I just don't see it. I mean, there are abbreviations that get around, but they are pretty self-explanatory: Murphleavy (usually in reference to their contracts and/or the GS trade), Dun-Dun, JT, Hibby, Quis (and the threesy variety), JO, Jax (used for both Mark and Stephen Jackson), SJax, Cro, AJ, Big Al etc. Any references to "Fingers" are not basketball related, and we'll leave it at that. The Black Hole can refer to any number of past Pacer players, but it is most often applied to Al Harrington or JO due to the fact that passes thrown to them (in the post) are rarely returned (or seen again). Jamaal Tinsley, aka the Tinman, has also been known by several disparaging nicknames; "Mel Mel the Abuser" from his street ball days and "Dustpan" thanks to his janitorial efforts at the brawl are just two that come to mind.

Lastly, "Skip to my Lou" is Raefer Alston, and Sasha Vujacic desperately wants to be known as "The Machine", but no one is foolish enough to give a nickname to a player of such little significance.

MrSparko
10-26-2008, 07:29 PM
Don't make Sasha angry or he'll destroy us on 2k9 again. :(

travmil
12-22-2008, 09:42 AM
My favorite nickname that I have seen lately is for Stephen Graham "Crackers". I first saw it in a thread the other day but I'll have to look and see who first used it.

JayRedd
12-23-2008, 10:05 PM
Danny is The Gift since he inexplicably fell to us at pick #17. Ron Artest is The Curse for obvious reasons and cause it completes the Jay-Z album title.

MyFavMartin
09-08-2010, 12:50 PM
I can't find how to post a photo on PD. I've tried Flickr but it doesn't work.

Recommended website to use?

Hicks
09-08-2010, 12:52 PM
Photobucket?

CoolHand
09-02-2013, 05:30 PM
I think some admin should recreate this FAQ thread.. pretty much everything in it is WAY outdated, and it's just taking up real estate as a pinned thread at the top of the board with no real benefits. (IMHO)