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Jonathan
08-27-2008, 04:16 PM
I feel our team needs a run stuffer on the Defensive Line. How would you fans feel if we cut Robert Mathis in order to acquire a run stuffer. I like Robert Mathis but we drafted Howard & signed Curtis Johnson. Mathis makes very good money could we use it elsewhere? We already have Dwight Freeney.

DisplacedKnick
08-27-2008, 05:25 PM
You don't need a run-stuffer on the defensive line. You need LB's who can fill the holes and stuff the run - and Bob Sanders. If you switched to a 3-4 you'd need a run-stuffer but for the Colts' system they don't need it.

Trader Joe
08-27-2008, 09:18 PM
Mathis has arguably been better than Freeney over the past two years.

travmil
08-27-2008, 11:54 PM
LOL. Cut Robert Mathis? Why? So the Giants can throw an insanely huge pile of money at him? He would immediately be the best pass rusher available. And you don't think the rest of the temas in the AFC, and the contenders in the NFC wouldn't be tripping over themselves to get him after the Giants showed everyone how to beat the Pats with a relentless pass rush in the Super Bowl? Seriously dude, you come up with some off the wall stuff sometimes.

CompACE
08-28-2008, 03:18 AM
If we didn't want Mathis, I'm pretty sure we would trade him as opposed to just setting him loose.

DisplacedKnick
08-28-2008, 07:20 AM
Mathis has arguably been better than Freeney over the past two years.

I'd bet a lot of money that he'll be better again this year. I expect Freeney to look like a very average player this season. Major injuries to your wheels - feet, ankles, knees - take a while to come back from 100%. Year 1 they're structurally sound and can take the field but it's the 2nd year where the muscle strength and athleticism come back. Remember Edge? First season back from knee surgery he looked like he'd lost his pop, leg drive, ability to finish plays and the second year he was back.

I look for the same from Freeney. He'll be able to play this year but I wouldn't expect a lot. But if the Colts are patient I think there's a good chance he'll be back to what he was - at least 90% back - next season.

Jonathan
08-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I was not trying to be off the wall but we do have to cut down from 75 players to 53 players this week. Robert Mathis makes a lot of money. The NFL is a business.

btowncolt
08-28-2008, 02:15 PM
How does cutting Robert Mathis make a great DT appear?

Jonathan
08-28-2008, 02:20 PM
How does cutting Robert Mathis make a great DT appear?

It does not, it gives the Colts money to invest in one or another quality offensive lineman. The loss of Saturday hurts. What are we going to do? Move Pollack to C. Let this Justice kid play.

btowncolt
08-28-2008, 02:37 PM
Okay. So cutting Mathis then makes a great OL appear. I get it.

Jonathan
08-28-2008, 02:47 PM
It gives our organization money to invest elsewhere besides a pass rush.

btowncolt
08-28-2008, 03:05 PM
And the other 31 teams haven't signed these great options on the market?

ChicagoJ
08-28-2008, 03:20 PM
You don't need a run-stuffer on the defensive line. You need LB's who can fill the holes and stuff the run - and Bob Sanders. If you switched to a 3-4 you'd need a run-stuffer but for the Colts' system they don't need it.

That's why I don't understand the 4-3. At all. Don't you switch to a 3-4 on running downs? Surely you don't leave the "speed" DEs on the field on second/ third and short do you? I would run off-tackle all day against that. Just have the HB read the DE for an inside or outside move and take the opposite choice to daylight.

Gamble1
08-28-2008, 04:14 PM
Displacedknick is totally right on this. A 3/4 needs a nosetackle to take a double team in order to create one on one matchups. A 3/4 disguises coverage in order to create blitz packages that create pressure without leaving the DBs out to dry.

A 4/3 is easier to read but effective against the pass becuase of the DE's. To create pressure with the tackles alot of stunts have to be applied in order to create confussion.

Johnathan most defenses are built to make the offense one dimensional. Rarely are there defenses that can stop both the run and the pass. Vikings are a good example of stoping the run. The colts are good example at stoping the pass.

Chicago J,
Rarely do people run to the outside on 3rd and short. However if they do then the corners/LB's have to come up to make the stop. DE's set the edge for outside runs but they rarely are able to make the tackle.

SoupIsGood
08-28-2008, 04:23 PM
That's not a good idea.

Gamble1
08-28-2008, 04:47 PM
It gives our organization money to invest elsewhere besides a pass rush.
Jonathan,
I understand your line of thinking but a team can't change its system when one player gets hurt.

Remember that Saturday was a nobody signing off of waivers when he came here.

Our defense lost us the game with San Diego because of a lack of pass rush. Mathis was hurt. Freeney was hurt and we couldn't stop a backup QB.

Nobody we bring in here will be ready until maybe half way through the season.

Gamble1
08-28-2008, 04:50 PM
That's why I don't understand the 4-3. At all. Don't you switch to a 3-4 on running downs? Surely you don't leave the "speed" DEs on the field on second/ third and short do you? I would run off-tackle all day against that. Just have the HB read the DE for an inside or outside move and take the opposite choice to daylight.

No you don't. Running downs are played by most teams with a 4/3. More men closer to the line get a better chance to stop the run.

Just look at your goal line defense.

MarionDeputy
08-28-2008, 05:29 PM
No you don't. Running downs are played by most teams with a 4/3. More men closer to the line get a better chance to stop the run.

Just look at your goal line defense.


I agree, the 3-4 is more of an anti-pass defense then the 4-3

2 edge rushers, 1 fatty in the middle to keep the run honest, and the linebackers are flexible between blitzing and coverage, and the DB's are not expected to come up and cover the run.

The 4-3 is the best overall defense. Your 4 D-Lineman are interchangeable, as you can replace your edge rushers with fatties, if you want to plug up the line for the run, your Linebackers are still fairly flexible however there is now 1 fewer, and the DB's in certain coverages are required to at least look for the run.

I think thats why most teams go with the 4-3 the 3-4 requires more specialized players as well....

ChicagoJ
08-28-2008, 07:20 PM
Disagree.

But then again, I watch a different team and it is constantly one of the best againt the run in the entire league nearly every year.

The Steelers play the base 3-4 against the run. Even on the goal line. They may tighten up the gaps, but it is the same front-seven personnel. You don't rush the edge from the DL in a 3-4 anyway. That comes from the OLBs.

But personnel matters, clearly. The Steelers draft specifically for the 3-4, that's why they've turned so many 4th round picks into star LBs (after they convert them from being an undersized DE.)

This works because they have run-stopping DEs and a dominant NT. Hampton and Smith require double teams, and back in the day van Olhoffen did too. That leaves huge gaps for the LBs to fill as run-stoppers. When Farrior or Foote make a tackle in the offensive backfield, its because the DL opened up a huge hole for them to penetrate into the offensive backfield.

When Aaron Smith went down with an injury last year, it proved just how important personnel is to the scheme. Just like when Hampton went down to an ACL in 2004. If the Steelers lose any of their front three for a long period of time, you can throw the season into the trash can.

MarionDeputy
08-28-2008, 10:24 PM
Disagree.

But then again, I watch a different team and it is constantly one of the best againt the run in the entire league nearly every year.

The Steelers play the base 3-4 against the run. Even on the goal line. They may tighten up the gaps, but it is the same front-seven personnel. You don't rush the edge from the DL in a 3-4 anyway. That comes from the OLBs.

But personnel matters, clearly. The Steelers draft specifically for the 3-4, that's why they've turned so many 4th round picks into star LBs (after they convert them from being an undersized DE.)

This works because they have run-stopping DEs and a dominant NT. Hampton and Smith require double teams, and back in the day van Olhoffen did too. That leaves huge gaps for the LBs to fill as run-stoppers. When Farrior or Foote make a tackle in the offensive backfield, its because the DL opened up a huge hole for them to penetrate into the offensive backfield.

When Aaron Smith went down with an injury last year, it proved just how important personnel is to the scheme. Just like when Hampton went down to an ACL in 2004. If the Steelers lose any of their front three for a long period of time, you can throw the season into the trash can.

You are right, edge rushing from the 3-4 does usually come from the outside backers, and I am not saying that the 3-4 can't stop the run, Pittsburg been successful for years doing that, and to a lesser extent so have the Pats. But I do think the personnel are a bit more specilized in the 3-4 and schemes are less flexible to a personnel change. But the advantages are a masked blitz and in my opinon more coverage options.

DisplacedKnick
08-28-2008, 10:26 PM
That's why I don't understand the 4-3. At all. Don't you switch to a 3-4 on running downs? Surely you don't leave the "speed" DEs on the field on second/ third and short do you? I would run off-tackle all day against that. Just have the HB read the DE for an inside or outside move and take the opposite choice to daylight.

Two years ago teams were running against the Colts on 3rd-and-long more than they passed it because the DE's would go way upfield and all they had to do was run to their spot. They fixed that for the playoffs though. Freeney and Mathis are actually pretty good run-stoppers in short yardage because they stay home.

I don't know why a team would play one defense on one play and change to a 3-4 the next. You set your team up to play one or the other - nobody has the kind of depth you'd need to swap.

burnzone
08-29-2008, 02:25 AM
4-3, cover 2, single gap penetration from the front 4. Only thing that really changes is if Bob Sanders is lined up closer to the line of scrimmage, our LB's are rarely sent to blitz.

Robert Mathis is a stud when Dwight Freeney is on the other side, so I doubt he's a replaceable part yet.

On some running downs they usually put in the other DE's that aren't speed rushers, like Jeff Charleston, and Josh Thomas.


Unfortunately they've already gone the route of spending big $$ on a 'run stopping DT' in the past, Corey Simon, and a 2nd rounder for Booger McFarland.

I just don't see the Colts spending anything on that position this season, it's going to have to develop from within, as they usually do.

I would imagine the rookies, and a couple UDFA's are most likely going to be in the rotation and expected to perform during the time they get, both the defensive, and offensive linemen.

MarionDeputy
08-29-2008, 12:46 PM
I thought Ed Johnson did a good job in the middle last year, considering we picked him up for nothing...