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Hoop
08-01-2008, 08:06 PM
Actually that's just when the machine, The Collider, will be turned on. It will be next year before it reaches full power. In excess of $500 million of our tax dollars went to help build this thing. I'm not really sure what the hell it is suppose to do, but there's a lawsuit to stop it being turned on for fear of it creating black holes that would grow and gobble up our planet. :eek:

http://www.lhcountdown.com/?cat=3
----------

The schedule is taking shape for the startup of the world’s biggest particle-smasher — and for the lawsuit seeking to shut it down.The plaintiffs in that lawsuit have served the federal government with a summons, and Justice Department lawyers are due to respond by June 24. One of the other parties in the case, Europe’s CERN particle-physics center, is supposed to be served this week in Switzerland, according to Walter Wagner, one of the plaintiffs.
CERN's Large Hadron Collider is gearing up to slam protons together at energies that have not yet been studied on Earth. The peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts approaches levels seen in the first microseconds after the big bang - which is why the collider has been nicknamed the “Big Bang Machine.” (http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/06/20/231148.aspx)

The first low-power proton collisions would come later in the summer or fall, leading up to a VIP ceremony on Oct. 21. The collider won’t reach its full power until next year, after CERN’s winter break. Any legal questions should be resolved by the time the Large Hadron Collider gets anywhere close to post-big-bang energies.

Full Article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24735984/
Tons of Photo's:
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/the_large_hadron_collider.html

Hicks
08-01-2008, 08:17 PM
This thing makes me nervous.

SycamoreKen
08-01-2008, 08:31 PM
If we, mankind, do have the power to create blackholes than the best thing that could happen is to turn the thing on and get it done with. Talk about a weapon of mass destruction.

Trader Joe
08-01-2008, 08:36 PM
Why must we choose to tempt fate with a machine like this? I'd imagine the chances are probably minute that the worst would happen, but why even test it? Are black holes really something we want to create or study? What do we plan on gaining from this experiment? It's not like we are going to discover the way to stop a black hole, if one enters our solar system we are screwed no matter how many experiments we do on them.

Seems to me that we have nothing to gain and everything to lose if this thing gets turned on.

Pay no attention to me though, I stopped taking science classes after junior year of high school.

rexnom
08-01-2008, 08:37 PM
God forbid we find out how the universe and mankind came to be...:rolleyes:

Trader Joe
08-01-2008, 08:43 PM
Do we really need to know?

MrSparko
08-01-2008, 08:59 PM
I for one welcome our Black hole overlords!

kester99
08-01-2008, 09:08 PM
Sparky, you are a nut.

And anyway, they're like totally likely not to care....so quit sucking up.

Rexnom, Pandora called. She'll be at her usual number...for a few more days.

Gyron
08-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Don't worry, the Mole people will get to us first. The sound of this thing coming on will drive them from underground and lead a revolt against us.

kester99
08-01-2008, 09:28 PM
Isn't this the thing that Comedy Central had a piece on a couple of years ago? The 'journalist' (Ed Helms? Colbert?) kept asking 'hey what happens if I push this button?' ...the gag being that the red buttons that kicked the accelerator on were easily accessible, while the most secure room they saw on the tour was the coat room.

And to Ken's comment: You know what happens when you go through a black hole to the other side, right? Wait a minute, I got a Drudge Report link here somewhere.

Ah, I'll have to get back to you on this.

rexnom
08-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Sparky, you are a nut.

And anyway, they're like totally likely not to care....so quit sucking up.

Rexnom, Pandora called. She'll be at her usual number...for a few more days.
Amusingly enough, I'm listening to Pandora right now...pretty good.

Do we really need to know?
And yes, we do need to know, it's the human condition. That's the point of Pandora/Epimetheus (and even Prometheus and the fire).

EDIT: A greater understanding of the universe means a greater understanding period. Why wouldn't you want that?

MrSparko
08-01-2008, 09:53 PM
Ignorance is bliss, and I'm a happy mothertrucker :cool:

kester99
08-01-2008, 09:54 PM
Amusingly enough, I'm listening to Pandora right now...pretty good.

And yes, we do need to know, it's the human condition. That's the point of Pandora/Epimetheus (and even Prometheus and the fire).

EDIT: A greater understanding of the universe means a greater understanding period. Why wouldn't you want that?


Complete and final annihilation? I'm just riffin' here.

And joking aside...the sheer chutzpah....arrogance...of a few who feel they can calculate the odds of annihilation, versus a percieved benefit of understanding the "material universe?" Well, fatalism sure comes in handy.

rexnom
08-01-2008, 10:04 PM
[/b]

Complete and final annihilation? I'm just riffin' here.

And joking aside...the sheer chutzpah....arrogance...of a few who feel they can calculate the odds of annihilation, versus a percieved benefit of understanding the "material universe?" Well, fatalism sure comes in handy.
Odds of annihilation? Really? Who says that this machine will bring annihilation? Half-Life? Lost in Space? How do we know that this machine is any more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill particle collider? What about the chutzpah/arrogance of the people who still keep nuclear arms around? There are much more dangerous people than the scientists at CERN, who I'm sure have a pretty fair understanding of the dangers involved, as opposed to a lot of our political leaders, who for some reasons make a majority of the decisions. In fact, if there is anyone I would ever trust with creating a black hole (and that's not what this will do), it would be the scientists at CERN.

travmil
08-01-2008, 10:05 PM
:onozomg:

Seriously, they've beem doing the same type of experiments (on a smaller scale) at the Fermi Labs in Chicago for decades. No black holes up there unless you count Lake Michigan.

rexnom
08-01-2008, 10:10 PM
:onozomg:

Seriously, they've beem doing the same type of experiments (on a smaller scale) at the Fermi Labs in Chicago for decades. No black holes up there unless you count Lake Michigan.
Fermilab is another (whatever kester suggested...) in the suits.

I'm going to go ahead and trust the experts/geniuses who might be able to answer some of the most fundamental questions about the universe/physics (the kind that Newton and Einstein would only dream about) and not some wacky doomsday scenario by people who don't know nearly as much.

kester99
08-01-2008, 10:17 PM
One minor note....Fermi Labs is not a plaintiff. The plaintiffs are bringing the suit. FermiLabs has been named as a target (or whatever you want to call it) of the suit.

I don't consider all this a serious danger.

I just don't consider it serious research either.

Hoop
08-01-2008, 10:31 PM
One minor note....Fermi Labs is not a plaintiff. The plaintiffs are bringing the suit. FermiLabs has been named as a target (or whatever you want to call it) of the suit.

I don't consider all this a serious danger.

I just don't consider it serious research either.

I don't know what to consider it, but it has cost billions and I doubt it is going to help mankind in the least.

Trader Joe
08-01-2008, 10:53 PM
Couldn't this billion dollars have been better used on something relevant? Like I don't know a cure for cancer, or more focused research on renewable energy?

I'm sure we're all dying to know what happened billions of years ago. I guess we're gonna be disappointed when we find out God sharted.

idioteque
08-02-2008, 12:00 AM
Couldn't this billion dollars have been better used on something relevant? Like I don't know a cure for cancer, or more focused research on renewable energy?

I'm sure we're all dying to know what happened billions of years ago. I guess we're gonna be disappointed when we find out God sharted.

:laugh:

I agree fully.

This research is of little use to me. Whatever happens I believe God was behind it and He willed it to happen. Maybe I am just a goofy Catholic, but what the heck.

rexnom
08-02-2008, 01:40 AM
One minor note....Fermi Labs is not a plaintiff. The plaintiffs are bringing the suit. FermiLabs has been named as a target (or whatever you want to call it) of the suit.

I don't consider all this a serious danger.

I just don't consider it serious research either.
Good call, obviously I'm not a lawyer...hehe...

jeffg-body
08-02-2008, 02:29 AM
What about 12.21.2012?

Lord Helmet
08-02-2008, 04:03 AM
What about 12.21.2012?
The Great Enlightenment.

Raskolnikov
08-02-2008, 04:26 AM
Here's a good read-up on the safety issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_the_Large_Hadron_Collider.

On the thing itself and why it was built: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider.

And why spend all the money on what just seems science for science: http://gravitasfreezone.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/a-good-value-for-money/. Like the article says, it could become something more though. It actually could become a lot more, because it's fundamental research.

DisplacedKnick
08-02-2008, 08:23 AM
Hey, if we can create a wormhole, I'm all for it. Think of it, instead of having to get in my car and drive 6 miles for groceries, I can just tale the wormhole & WOOSH! I'm there. Talk about an energy-saver.

Of course we'll have to get past that being crushed into an unrecognizable blob about a millionth of the size of a grain of sand first but what the hey . . .

On a serious note, as for how it will help us, nobody expected the Apollo missions to develop an entirely new metallurgy and to stimulate technology throughout society like it did. I have no doubt what science learns in building this will find use - I couldn't point to what that will be but that kind of investment in pure theoretical science almost always pays off.

Anthem
08-02-2008, 09:23 AM
On a serious note, as for how it will help us, nobody expected the Apollo missions to develop an entirely new metallurgy and to stimulate technology throughout society like it did. I have no doubt what science learns in building this will find use - I couldn't point to what that will be but that kind of investment in pure theoretical science almost always pays off.
Exactly.

The people bringing the lawsuit are kooks... "precautionary principle"-type hand-wringers. The thing poses no danger of creating black holes; they got their math wrong. This was covered a while back, but I'm too lazy to dig up a link.



EDIT: Google's awesome. "collider black hole math wrong" =

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080627175348.htm

Money quote:


The Giddings/Mangano study concludes that such microscopic black holes would be harmless. In fact, he added, nature is continuously creating LHC-like collisions when much higher-energy cosmic rays collide with the Earth's atmosphere, with the Sun, and with other objects such as white dwarfs and neutron stars. If such collisions posed a danger, the consequences for Earth or these astronomical objects would have become evident already, Giddings said.

Anthem
08-02-2008, 10:16 AM
Some great pictures here:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/the_large_hadron_collider.html

rexnom
08-02-2008, 12:21 PM
And there's the cavalry...

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2008, 04:42 PM
[/b]

Complete and final annihilation? I'm just riffin' here.

And joking aside...the sheer chutzpah....arrogance...of a few who feel they can calculate the odds of annihilation, versus a percieved benefit of understanding the "material universe?" Well, fatalism sure comes in handy.
I've calculated the odds of annihilation perfectly.

100 MFing percent, no questions asked. Sooner or later it's coming. That is unless someone turns this SOB on and figures out how to reverse ENTROPY.


BTW, understanding a unifying answer between the fundamental forces of physics could go toward things like newer energy sources or improvements in the safety/efficiency of nuclear reactors. $4 gas and a mass exodus of US dollars for oil energy seems like a pretty good reason. Expanding humanity to farther reaches of the universe sounds good too. Not everything is about today, and that's no different with cancer research either. Sometimes you bite the bullet for future generations.

Doug
08-02-2008, 10:54 PM
figures out how to reverse ENTROPY.

Well, the entropy problem goes away if you don't believe the universe is a closed system.

For example, what if this universe is one of many. And these universes collide periodically. Such a collision could add (or remove) massive amounts of energy to a system.

Or, if you wish, if the universe is infinite, then can it truly be considered a closed system?

Of course, if the universe is finite in mass, but infinite in volume, then the entropy problem still exists.

Excuse me, I need to get another beer.

clownskull
08-04-2008, 11:17 AM
like someone else said... the people bringing about this lawsuit are kooks.
not trying to sound like a know-it-all but, there is absolutely no chance of this thing creating a black hole that will destroy us.
in order for a black hole to actually be created and be able to exist for more the a few nanoseconds it would need to posses at least a couple of solar masses which is greater than that of our sun, the earth and everything else in the solar system combined. these micro black holes it would create will blink out of existence about as fast as they are created. they simply don't have anywhere near the mass to sustain themselves.
i am not worried by this thing in the slightest.

SycamoreKen
08-04-2008, 12:49 PM
3 and a half days until this goes down. I'll wait to cancel the movers until after it happens.

btowncolt
08-04-2008, 02:08 PM
So if I time my fart just right, I won't have to febreeze the room because it's all going to get sucked up? Excellent time saver.

Major Cold
08-04-2008, 02:17 PM
Well, the entropy problem goes away if you don't believe the universe is a closed system.

For example, what if this universe is one of many. And these universes collide periodically. Such a collision could add (or remove) massive amounts of energy to a system.

Or, if you wish, if the universe is infinite, then can it truly be considered a closed system?

Of course, if the universe is finite in mass, but infinite in volume, then the entropy problem still exists.

Excuse me, I need to get another beer.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=35735

Eindar
08-05-2008, 12:29 AM
On one hand, I'm almost positive these tests will shed some light on theoretical physics, and that this will yield results that are beneficial in the future. Engineering has been lagging behind Physics recently, so I'm hoping this gives them some ideas on how to catch up.

On the other hand, I'm concerned that this is a bit too much money to conduct tests that may or may not have a significant impact on our daily lives at any time in the future.

Also, to the people saying that these guys are genii and taking the "what could go wrong?" stance....Oppenheimer and Einstein were pretty smart guys, too, but they both underestimated the impact of the atomic bomb. These are massive forces that, for us Humans are completely theoretical. We think we know what will happen, but I think it's a fine bit of hubris to claim that there's absolutely no way something BAD happens, when you've never observed it yourself, and you're trying to replicate something you can't even explain (Big Bang). Also, a lot of explanations minimizing the danger use cosmic rays as their gold standard. Well, that's one case, and the small differences between hitting the atmosphere of a celestial body naturally, and artificially generating that same effect while inside a planet's atmosphere is another. My point being, using one occurrence to explain this one leaves me a little bit concerned. Not "Duck and Cover" concerned, because if something bad does happen I won't have time to worry about it, but I'd much rather see this money and effort put towards endeavors with a higher rate of return and a lower chance of destroying the solar system.

SycamoreKen
08-05-2008, 12:32 AM
I just realized I will not be home with my wife when the black hole hits. Guess I'll see her on the other side.

Gyron
08-05-2008, 09:39 AM
Who really needs France and Sweden anyways.... I mean the swiss hot cocoa is nice, but I guess I'll have to learn to live without after they are gone......And I think we already have the reciepe for French Bread. So we're good there too.

clownskull
08-08-2008, 08:17 PM
so......... are we dead yet?

kester99
08-08-2008, 08:41 PM
rescheduled...

efx
08-09-2008, 09:34 AM
Who really needs France and Sweden anyways.... I mean the swiss hot cocoa is nice, but I guess I'll have to learn to live without after they are gone......And I think we already have the reciepe for French Bread. So we're good there too.

Swiss = Sweden now?

Gyron
08-09-2008, 11:09 AM
Sorry, I am a dumb ***.......I'll miss the swedish bikini team.

How's that?

rexnom
08-09-2008, 11:37 AM
Swiss = Sweden now?
Oh memories. No matter how many times I told people I was from Sweden, growing up in Indiana, I would always be "Swiss."

efx
08-09-2008, 12:22 PM
Oh memories. No matter how many times I told people I was from Sweden, growing up in Indiana, I would always be "Swiss."

Even in college some of my professors would ask me to get a swedish watch or some swedish cheese... I don't take offense though, it's just funny.

rexnom
08-09-2008, 01:06 PM
Even in college some of my professors would ask me to get a swedish watch or some swedish cheese... I don't take offense though, it's just funny.
Oh, I don't either. I sometimes play along...the alps are only a short ride from Stockholm and great for skiing this time of the year!

Raskolnikov
09-10-2008, 05:49 AM
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/

rexnom
09-10-2008, 08:32 AM
Also...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7604293.stm

"Scientists hope it will shed light on fundamental questions in physics. "<!-- E SF -->

DisplacedKnick
09-10-2008, 10:02 AM
Yeah! :dance:

We're getting rid of Switzerland! Death to timepieces and funny little knives!

:D

Hicks
09-10-2008, 04:25 PM
Are we dead yet?

kester99
09-10-2008, 04:27 PM
Just one more little fiddle with the doohickey...reverse polarity, and bingo.

Eindar
09-10-2008, 11:34 PM
Are we dead yet?

Not till they get them going full speed and make them collide. That's when we get to see if anything horrible happens. :)

Slick Pinkham
09-11-2008, 12:05 AM
I was worried, so I asked Ricky Williams about it, since I'm here in Florida.

He said:

Cosmic rays throughout the universe produce similar collisions of higher energy than will be possible with the LHC on a regular basis. Even if a micro black hole is created AND it does not instantly evaporate AND it becomes trapped by the earth's gravity, it is likely that it will aggregate mass so slowly that something else out there will destroy the earth before the black hole is able to do so.

A strangelet disaster is similarly unlikely. The mere fact that Earth (in addition to countless other stars and planets) has not yet been converted to strange matter is a testament in itself to the rarity of such an event in the universe.

As for a vacuum metastability event, well, we probably would have been killed by such an event resulting from either natural sources or an extraterrestrial civilization's particle collider long ago if it were that easy to initiate.


---
day-ummm that Ricky is purdy smart

;)

DisplacedKnick
09-11-2008, 08:11 AM
I was worried, so I asked Ricky Williams about it, since I'm here in Florida.

He said:

Cosmic rays throughout the universe produce similar collisions of higher energy than will be possible with the LHC on a regular basis. Even if a micro black hole is created AND it does not instantly evaporate AND it becomes trapped by the earth's gravity, it is likely that it will aggregate mass so slowly that something else out there will destroy the earth before the black hole is able to do so.

A strangelet disaster is similarly unlikely. The mere fact that Earth (in addition to countless other stars and planets) has not yet been converted to strange matter is a testament in itself to the rarity of such an event in the universe.

As for a vacuum metastability event, well, we probably would have been killed by such an event resulting from either natural sources or an extraterrestrial civilization's particle collider long ago if it were that easy to initiate.


---
day-ummm that Ricky is purdy smart

;)

He should tell Rafael Nadal - this is all a conspiracy by him to get rid of that Swiss tennis player - Roger something-or-other. Or maybe it's Pete Sampras who wants to keep his slam record - not sure. (Or maybe everyone's right - it all IS a conspiracy, between Rafa & Pete)

It'll be the end of yodeling as we know it.

bellisimo
09-11-2008, 10:46 AM
here is a live webcam feed from LHC

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

MarionDeputy
09-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if we found other dimensions and one of them was Bizzaro world? I would be good looking and irresistable to women there!

MrSparko
09-11-2008, 10:18 PM
http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/



I told my girl yesterday that if a black hole developed in central Europe and both of us turned into dust clouds floating on the event horizon somewhere around Poland, I'd still love her.

kester99
09-11-2008, 10:42 PM
Oh. It's 'fewer.' Fewer than 7 days. Just ask Graham.

duke dynamite
09-12-2008, 01:41 AM
here is a live webcam feed from LHC

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

I saw that link, and knew it was going to be a joke...

Aw Heck
09-12-2008, 07:28 AM
Tim Duncan Forwards Story About Particle Accelerator To Spurs Teammates

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/tim_duncan_forwards_story

SAN ANTONIO—Spurs center Tim Duncan once again attempted to simultaneously bond with his teammates and enrich their lives on Tuesday when the two-time NBA MVP forwarded an article about the Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest particle accelerator, to each player on the Spurs. "I hope they found reading about the Large Hadron Collider experiment to recreate the first instants in the birth of our universe as engaging as I did," Duncan said, adding that if his teammates respond positively to the article, he would also send them a related article on quantum chromodynamics recently published in Scientific American. "It will be interesting to find out if they have similar theories about space, matter, and time." In the past three months, Duncan has reportedly forwarded articles on the evolution of the roseola virus, the technology of geothermal energy research, and caring for koi fish in a backyard pond.

:D

Shade
09-12-2008, 12:36 PM
So, are we all dead yet? Because I'd really rather not go into work tonight.

DisplacedKnick
09-12-2008, 07:53 PM
So, are we all dead yet? Because I'd really rather not go into work tonight.

Black Holes take time to build enough mass - and even then we might end up being sucked through an event horizon and never even know anything that happened.

In fact, I believe that DID happen - we're in an alternate universe, one where Jim Dolan owns the Miami Heat.

kester99
09-12-2008, 08:20 PM
This seven day thing is going on a month-and-a-half now. Maybe we're in a loop, like Bill Murray, or that sheriff on Eureka.

Dab
09-15-2008, 04:09 PM
This oughta make everybody feel better...

Hackers deface LHC site, came close to turning off particle detector

Is it now cyberwar over atom-smashing? A team of Greek hackers calling themselvses Greek Security Team has penetrated the Large Hadron Collider and defaced a public website. No real damage done, but the hackers got perilously close. The hackers attacked the Compact Muon Solenoid Experiment, or CMS. The Guardian reports:
Scientists working at Cern, the organisation that runs the vast smasher, were worried about what the hackers could do because they were “one step away” from the computer control system of one of the huge detectors of the machine, a vast magnet that weighs 12,500 tons, measuring around 21 metres in length and 15 metres wide/high.

If they had hacked into a second computer network, they could have turned off parts of the vast detector and, said the insider, “it is hard enough to make these things work if no one is messing with it.”

Fortunately, only one file was damaged but one of the scientists firing off emails as the CMS team fought off the hackers said it was a “scary experience”.

The hackers breached the CMSMON system, which monitors the CMS software system. CMS takes vast amounts of data during collisions. About CERN’s security apparatus:
Cern relies on a ‘defence-in-depth’ strategy, separating control networks and using firewalls and complex passwords, to protect its control systems from malicious software, such as denial-of-service attacks, botnets and zombie machines, which can strike with a synchronised attack from hundreds of machines around the world.

However, there have been growing concerns about security as remote or wireless access, notebooks and USB sticks offer new possibilities for a virus or worms to enter the network, not to mention hackers and terrorists who might be interested in targeting computers to shutdown the system.
http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3996

kester99
09-15-2008, 06:06 PM
I wish I could find a clip of the Daily Show tour of the big high tech facility where the only security on the big red buttons was the tour guide yelling, "Hey don't touch that!" And the coat room was under lock and key.

SycamoreKen
09-29-2008, 12:09 AM
Know this is old news, but still thought I'd share.

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/hadron.gif

GO!!!!!
09-29-2008, 12:50 AM
I miss the Y2K Bug... it's been almost 9 Years since we first met and had our scare...

Nice Graph SK... but where o where are the two poles... or is Global Warming doing all of Hadron Collider's Work...