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Bball
06-16-2004, 01:20 AM
I was just thinking about the Pacers future and it is clear the road to a championship will be going through Detroit. And it will be a physical road. It will take a tough team to get past Detroit. Tough physically and tough mentally.

Does anybody think Bender has a chance to be anything but a liability facing the 2005 Detroit Pistons?

IMHO Bender's window of opportunity just slammed shut.

-Bball

indygeezer
06-16-2004, 01:23 AM
GOod question. I need to think about that. I seriously think he can be a force...someday. But here? I would prefer it. BTW looking at his shoulders they've gotten massive but I think there is still room for him to grow more bulk there.

bulletproof
06-16-2004, 01:29 AM
Bender's gone, one way or another. Either with a trade involving Al or Ron.

kerosene
06-16-2004, 01:32 AM
I think Bender sealed his fate with the "deer in the headlights" look and his mental mistakes in the Pistons series. My guess is that the Walsh/Bird conglomerate were watching the playoffs very closely to see who has the mental makeup and drive to be a _winner_. Bender failed that test. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him traded.

Snickers
06-16-2004, 01:37 AM
Tayshaun Prince.

TheSauceMaster
06-16-2004, 01:39 AM
Tayshaun Prince.

yeah he's 10x tougher than Bender , exits thread :zip:

btw if Bender is traded , I won't lose much sleep :P

beast23
06-16-2004, 01:42 AM
I think that Bender could be huge against the Pistons in the future. IMO we do need to be physically tough to beat the pistons, but more important I think we need to be quick.

Bender is quick and long, and is getting tougher. When he wasn't turning the ball over (which I admit was due to a lack of mental toughness) he seemed to be able to score pretty effectively with Prince or Corliss on him.
Bender actually has small and weak hands. There's no way he can hold onto the ball in traffic or under the boards when everyone is taking a swipe at it. He also has no strong base to hold position against larger players on the blocks.

Ditto Bulletproof.

he's gone. Finally.

Snickers
06-16-2004, 01:44 AM
Tayshaun Prince.

yeah he's 10x tougher than Bender , exits thread :zip:

btw if Bender is traded , I won't lose much sleep :P

I think Jon's got the tools to be for us what Tayshaun is for the Pistons, perhaps with a little more offense and a little less defense. Jon won't be the stopper Tayshaun is, and Tayshaun won't be as explosive as Jon on offense [albeit only 4 or 5 times a year :P]

Bball
06-16-2004, 01:44 AM
Bender's gone, one way or another. Either with a trade involving Al or Ron.

I'm starting to think Bender and Al will be gone without question... and the only question is whether Ron will be following them.

I think Detroit put the capper on the Bender experiment for the Pacers. He is now a liability.

But I am now thinking Al's pouting and requesting a trade also shows he isn't of the proper attitude to be part of this team either. I'm betting Bird will be discussing with Walsh about the mental end of things necessary to beat Detroit and I bet Al doesn't fit the mold.

I'm on the fence with Artest.

-Bball

kerosene
06-16-2004, 01:50 AM
It's funny bball, the last few days I've been thinking a lot about how stacked we are at SF but how I'm not totally happy with any single SF we have. The stuff about Ron having behind the scenes issues has crept in but he's probably still my favorite Pacer right now. But when he breaks the offense and some of the things he says sometimes kill me. Al's flaws have been discussed as have Bender's. It's just strange to be so deep at that position and not be happy. Many other teams would love to have this problem.

I think I'm just being a bit fussy really. It was a great season with a bit of a disappointment at the end but the Pacers did what I wanted/expected them to do. I do think some changes are in order though.

Bball
06-16-2004, 01:54 AM
I think Bender sealed his fate with the "deer in the headlights" look and his mental mistakes in the Pistons series. My guess is that the Walsh/Bird conglomerate were watching the playoffs very closely to see who has the mental makeup and drive to be a _winner_. Bender failed that test. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him traded.

And by the same token I think Freddy Jones might've gotten a pretty good grade on that test.

-Bball

kerosene
06-16-2004, 01:56 AM
Yes Freddie did. He didn't get rattled and played hard. I was very impressed with his composure in the playoffs. Which makes it more glaring when we look at a couple of other guys IMO.

Snickers
06-16-2004, 02:01 AM
Freddie was fantastic. Not counting the guys who were hurt [JO and Tins] he was the best player in the Detroit series, IMO.

I'd like to keep Bender, mainly because I just know he'd blow up with whoever we traded him to.... but if it means getting the 2-guard we need, I wouldn't hesitate. He's a non-contributor on a team that's a 2-guard [and maybe a backup 5] away from a title. No-brainer.

Bball
06-16-2004, 02:09 AM
Freddie was fantastic. Not counting the guys who were hurt [JO and Tins] he was the best player in the Detroit series, IMO.

I'd like to keep Bender, mainly because I just know he'd blow up with whoever we traded him to.... but if it means getting the 2-guard we need, I wouldn't hesitate. He's a non-contributor on a team that's a 2-guard [and maybe a backup 5] away from a title. No-brainer.

I seriously think Detroit 'blew him up' for us. He's been in the league 5 years. We have a pretty good idea of what kind of player he could be even if he maxed out his potential. At best, he'd be a finesse player. And that is being very optimistic IMHO. He's soft and timid and after 5 years it's hard imagining that changing much. Maybe there will be some incremental improvements but enough to matter against today's NBA? I think other teams will be looking to follow Detroit's lead and style.

As long as the NBA is going to allow physical play, Bender isn't mentally or physically able to be a factor. Not a positive factor anyway.

.02,
Bball

Suaveness
06-16-2004, 09:57 AM
If I had a choice to keep Fred or Bender, I would keep Fred in a heartbeat.

Unclebuck
06-16-2004, 10:03 AM
Are some of you saying that the Pacers will trade Benbder, Al and Ron for McGrady.

I still have a lot of confidence in Bender's future.

But my mind can't comprehend all this right now

Suaveness
06-16-2004, 10:04 AM
Are some of you saying that the Pacers will trade Benbder, Al and Ron for McGrady.

I still have a lot of confidence in Bender's future.

But my mind can't comprehend all this right now

There is NO way I would trade all 3 for McGrady. No way. But I of those 3 I would MUCh rather have Ron here.

able
06-16-2004, 10:32 AM
Bender's gone, one way or another. Either with a trade involving Al or Ron.

I'm starting to think Bender and Al will be gone without question... and the only question is whether Ron will be following them.

I think Detroit put the capper on the Bender experiment for the Pacers. He is now a liability.

But I am now thinking Al's pouting and requesting a trade also shows he isn't of the proper attitude to be part of this team either. I'm betting Bird will be discussing with Walsh about the mental end of things necessary to beat Detroit and I bet Al doesn't fit the mold.

I'm on the fence with Artest.

-Bball

JB had 5 years, injury ridden, due to his age I'm still sure but still injury ridden.
He was fit this post season, he had a few signs of being there, then came the pressure of Detroit game, a pressure that was maybe new, but he should have not felt it that bad, in short I agree: he failed the test.
He showed his hands have a disfunction, but most important his mind has a disfunction.
I am sure he has more talent in his pinkie then most players have all together, but having the most talent does not guarantee to make you a NBA star.
I feel DW (and now LB as well) have given up on the kid, to much money to long a time and to little progress.

Your thoughts about Al are intruiging and right, it is a question that needs to be addressed, do you want to continue with a player who has this state of mind, is his wish to be starter not a state of mind that can easily lead to being detremental to the team, after all the next step up from being a starter is being the focus of the offense.

Ron, how much I hate to say it and how much I do hope they will get him back in to the groove with the team and management, fear is part of reason, if he is the price, it will be easier for management to defend their decision if they are looking at his behaviour, which is something I hoped would be not the case, in short: Ron is not helping his case, how ever sad that is for a number of reasons, including the fact that Ron is probably best served with playing for the Pacers.

Besides TMac and the open talks about it, why is no one mentioning Pierce?

BigMac
06-16-2004, 10:49 AM
Besides TMac and the open talks about it, why is no one mentioning Pierce?

Because he just got a new coach and Boston needs a cornerstone for the future and Rivers said that part of the intrigue about coaching Boston was to coach Pierce. He's not going anywhere-at least not here. I admit I had the same thought just until Rivers got hired and made his pro-Pierce statements. Now it would not be a good PR move to trade Pierce, no matter what they got in return (imo).

ChicagoJ
06-16-2004, 11:18 AM
Are some of you saying that the Pacers will trade Benbder, Al and Ron for McGrady.

I still have a lot of confidence in Bender's future.

But my mind can't comprehend all this right now

I've said a couple times since the season ended that all three (Jon, Al, Ron) could be gone, but they aren't very valuable in a package. So I'm looking for separate deals. I'm still thinking Ron and Jon for T-Mac, and Al + change for either (Cato and Mobley) or (Dampier and change.)

T-Mac could be the answer at either SG or SF. In fact, defensively, he might be better suited to the "3" spot anyway.

able
06-16-2004, 11:21 AM
What I meant is that there is a tradition with the Pacers that deals that look "advertised" as in that they are admitting to talk about them are often the ones that everyone focusses on and in the meantime they are working on something else.

Now in this case, we have to think the same caliber or close to TMac so hence my "floater".

I agree with your reasoning though, but on the other hand logic is defied to be logic.

MSA2CF
06-16-2004, 11:24 AM
Does anybody think Bender has a chance to be anything but a liability facing the 2005 Detroit Pistons?

IMHO Bender's window of opportunity just slammed shut.

I believe Bender will have a breakout year next season, assuming he stays with the Pacers.

Young
06-16-2004, 12:14 PM
I would shop Bender around and see what I could get if I was Bird and Walsh because he didn't show alot this season or before.

Very inconsistant.

We need some toughness coming off that bench. Atleast someone we can count on.

Croshere is more reliable than Bender.

SkipperZ
06-16-2004, 01:06 PM
If the rumor is true (Al and Ron for TMAC or Al to Chicago and the #3 and Ron for Tmac) then all of a sudden Bender (and Croshere) becomes a VERY important part of the team.

Whether you think thats a good thing or not, is up to you.

I personally think Bender could fill in for Al Harrington without us missing a beat. But Losing Artest would hurt a lot. In other words, bender next year has the ability to become a 6th man of the year candidate, but I cant see us winning the championship if he's forced to start all of a sudden.

Of course you could start Reggie and Tmac, play Freddie behind Reg, Bender behind Tmac and croshere behind JO/Foster. I don't know it just seems like the depth and frontcourt presence would start to go.

Usually im very sure of whether or not I want a certain trade to happen. For the first time, I can't tell if i want a trade to go through. Tmac fills a void, but losing artest opens one up.

Well looks like an exciting offseason. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Bball
06-16-2004, 01:38 PM
I suppose if it took Ron and Al to get TMac, and the Pacer brass was all for it, then Bender could be an after-thought to keep around. I'm not sure anyone would want him outside of a package deal.... And that Pollard/Bender line is pretty short of takers I bet!

-Bball

wintermute
06-17-2004, 07:34 AM
i don't get why we're trading all 3 of ron, al, and jon. they are our entire depth at sf - after them it's just james jones. trading just one of the 3 away will free up minutes for the rest.

and no, tmac won't be our sf - he'll play some minutes there, but he'll also be slotted in the 2 spot when reggie retires.

all said and done though, i think it would be a mistake to trade artest.

sixthman
06-17-2004, 11:17 AM
If I were the Pacers brass, I'd take my chances with T-Mac and let Ron and Al go in the exchange. Reluctantly, especially in the case of Ron.

I'd be sure to sign a serviceable defender at small forward, but I'd start JB from the git go and pray that the serviceable defender doesn't have to become my starter or that T-Mac has to become my small forward.

Honestly, I think JB would get better and better, the more he plays.

Hoop
06-17-2004, 07:38 PM
Does anybody think Bender has a chance to be anything but a liability facing the 2005 Detroit Pistons?

IMHO Bender's window of opportunity just slammed shut.

I believe Bender will have a breakout year next season, assuming he stays with the Pacers.

If Al and Ron go for T-Mac, I could see Bender as our starting SF. JO and T-Mac will draw a lot of double teams, Bender could get a lot of open looks and he can shoot. I'm not concerned how Bender looked against Detroit this year, they made alot of players look bad.

Anthem
06-17-2004, 11:03 PM
I don't understand this thread. Bender showed TONS more in the playoffs this year than Al Harrington did last year.

Bender did fine. Not great, but as well as you can expect a third-string SF to play. Shoot, this was supposed to be Al's breakout year, and he didn't crack 10 ppg in the playoffs.

There are reasons to doubt Bender, but his performance in the ECFs isn't that high on my list.

Hicks
06-17-2004, 11:05 PM
JB was OK. Nothing more nothing less. I wouldn't trade him for that.

Now, that doesn't mean for a second I wouldn't trade him with Al for T-Mac, but I'm saying he hardly earned a boot in his *** on his way off the team.

Bball
06-17-2004, 11:13 PM
I don't understand this thread. Bender showed TONS more in the playoffs this year than Al Harrington did last year.

Bender did fine. Not great, but as well as you can expect a third-string SF to play. Shoot, this was supposed to be Al's breakout year, and he didn't crack 10 ppg in the playoffs.

There are reasons to doubt Bender, but his performance in the ECFs isn't that high on my list.

I don't remember Bender doing anything in the 2-3rd rounds of the playoffs... And his performance in the ECF's (I thought) were downright pathetic. Deer in the headlights....

But my bigger issue is that Bender is not, nor likely ever to be a 'physical' player and the road to the Finals will be a physical one. EVERYBODY (who is a playoff team) will be building with Detroit in their sights.

-Bball

Anthem
06-17-2004, 11:28 PM
And his performance in the ECF's (I thought) were downright pathetic. Deer in the headlights....

Well sure it was. He played terribly.

So did Al, Croshere (with a 1-game exception), Foster, Artest (another 1-game exception), and Reggie (had 5 fgs in his best game, while allowing lots more).

JO and Tinsley get a pass from me, although JO actually played better after his injury than before. Johnson was fine. Freddy Jones was quite good.

Everybody played poorly in the ECFs. It wasn't just Bender.

EDIT: I realized that I only addressed half of your post. My answer to the rest is that Ben Wallace is physical. Rasheed Wallace is physical. Prince (the player likely to be guarding Bender) isn't anywhere near those two guys. He's an excellent defender, but that's because of his length, quickness, and timing. And with the exception of the last one, those abilities aren't the primary ones he'd need to stop an emergent Bender.