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View Full Version : Is the increasing whiteness of the Pacers an intentional reaction to the team's tarnished image?



King Tuts Tomb
07-20-2008, 02:17 AM
A friend recently pointed out to me that the Pacers have, in the last two years, become a significantly whiter team. We now have six white players under contract, five of which will definitely be on the team this season and four of which are at least starters or significant role players. This is an especially high percentage for an NBA team, especially when something like 90% of the league is black.

My question is, did the Indiana Pacers consciously make the decision to start building the team around white players as a reaction to the off the court issues of the last few years?

A couple notes: I am NOT calling the Pacers organization racist. Making sure to have at least a couple of white players on an NBA bench is nothing new, Red Aurebach made sure he always did in Boston (there's an article out there somewhere about the intentional racial make-up of Red's Celtics teams. I'll try and find it and post it when I can).

On a personal level, I don't think it's intentional. I think we acquired the best players we could in the trades we made, despite skin color. But I do wonder how players on other teams, and other team's fans, interpret this. Last season a friend texted me "Do the Pacers know the league is desegregated?"

So what do you guys think?

Kstat
07-20-2008, 02:20 AM
If the Pacers had signed Jason Williams and Cris Andersen, would this still be a topic?


Last season a friend texted me "Do the Pacers know the league is desegregated?"

...he asked you if a team that employed 6 white players and 6 black players knew the NBA was desegregated....

There's really no punchline to that. That's the joke in and of itself.

Your friend is the one with racial issues, not the pacers...

Trader Joe
07-20-2008, 02:20 AM
Brandon Rush, Jarret Jack, TJ Ford, Maceo Baston, Shawne Williams, James White, Danny Granger, Ike Diogu, Keith McLeod, Kareem Rush, Flip Murray, Andre Owens.
What the hell are you talking about?

spazzxb
07-20-2008, 02:33 AM
Brandon Rush, Jarret Jack, TJ Ford, Maceo Baston, Shawne Williams, James White, Danny Granger, Ike Diogu, Keith McLeod, Kareem Rush, Flip Murray, Andre Owens.
What the hell are you talking about?

thats what i was thinking.

duke dynamite
07-20-2008, 02:34 AM
I see no connection. They are just players.

King Tuts Tomb
07-20-2008, 02:34 AM
...he asked you if a team that employed 6 white players and 6 black players knew the NBA was desegregated....

There's really no punchline to that. That's the joke in and of itself.

Exactly, it was a joke. But it came from the fact that we have a significantly whiter team than anyone else in the league.


Brandon Rush, Jarret Jack, TJ Ford, Maceo Baston, Shawne Williams, James White, Danny Granger, Ike Diogu, Keith McLeod, Kareem Rush, Flip Murray, Andre Owens.
What the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about the team actively choosing to go after white players. That doesn't mean that we have an all white team, it means we have a significantly white team.

I'll say this again, it's not a new concept for a team to try and be whiter as a way to appeal to fans. It's something that has existed in sports for the last fifty years.

Kstat
07-20-2008, 02:38 AM
But it came from the fact that we have a significantly whiter team than anyone else in the league.

http://www.impact-signs.com/logodesign/JAZZ(Logo).jpg

MillerTime
07-20-2008, 02:44 AM
Look at the recent moves they've made and new players coming in. Jack, Ford, Rush, Rasho, Hibbert, and Baston. of those only Rasho (17%) is white. I dont see any connection to this thread and what Bird is trying to do.

King Tuts Tomb
07-20-2008, 02:56 AM
http://www.impact-signs.com/logodesign/JAZZ(Logo).jpg

Agreed, I should have said "any team other than the Jazz," although I don't enjoy any comparisons to the Jazz.


I dont see any connection to this thread and what Bird is trying to do.

I hope not (and for the record, neither do I), but some people act like it's heresy to even mention race when talking about the NBA. I just want to have the discussion.

kester99
07-20-2008, 02:57 AM
I've heard comments like that directed at the Pacers...always wrote it off as easy and cheap shots by some doofus that was trying to say or write something clever or bold, and didn't really have a clue how to do either.

PR07
07-20-2008, 03:29 AM
I think the Pacers just look for ball players. They went through a stretch where they added Dunleavy, Murphy, and Diener; but that was because they needed shooters. A lot of the league's best shooters are white. Other than that, they've added players of all color as long as they possess exceptional character.

MillerTime
07-20-2008, 03:33 AM
I think the Pacers just look for ball players. They went through a stretch where they added Dunleavy, Murphy, and Diener; but that was because they needed shooters. A lot of the league's best shooters are white. Other than that, they've added players of all color as long as they possess exceptional character.

I totally agree with you. When the Pacers were looking for shooters they did add white players, but they were looking for shooters and coincidently they were white. Not to mention, the Pacers did sign a coloured player, K. Rush

PaceBalls
07-20-2008, 03:37 AM
This thread is just so full of wrong..

I recommend immediate shutdown. Coloured??

Taterhead
07-20-2008, 03:40 AM
I don't think it's intentional at all. McRoberts and Nesto were aquired for obvious reasons other than skin color. Nesto is an expiring deal, and McRoberts is a young local boy. They also have signed guys like Murray, K.Rush, Graham and Owens. And they drafted 2 black players.

croz24
07-20-2008, 03:44 AM
hmm...name the top 3 pacers from last year...imo 1) dunleavy 2) granger 3) foster

but the lack of white americans in the nba is a problem that should be addressed imo

Kstat
07-20-2008, 03:46 AM
Why does it need to be addressed, and by who?

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-20-2008, 03:50 AM
And how?

croz24
07-20-2008, 04:03 AM
well, if the lack of blacks in baseball, hockey, golf, and motor sports needs to be addressed, then so does the lack of white americans in the nba

King Tuts Tomb
07-20-2008, 04:15 AM
This thread is just so full of wrong..

I recommend immediate shutdown. Coloured??

Although I do agree with you in questioning use of the term "coloured"...

Why should the thread be immediately shut down?

Midcoasted
07-20-2008, 05:48 AM
I really think there is no connection at all. Take Foster and Dunleavy for instance. They earned the right to play. It had nothing to do with color. If any man of any color takes their job and does it better I will be happy about it. We just want winners. And there have been several "white Americans" who have been stars in the last twenty years.

But did I like Smits any less because he was white but from Holland? No. I dream we had a player of his caliber. Did Reggie being black have anything to do with him being my favorite player? No. I would have loved him if he were any color of the rainbow.

Point is, id that we aren't bringing in white players for any reason other than they are what we want in a player. As pointed out we have added several black players to our roster recently, and these players seem to fit the mold. Hard working team players who stay out of trouble. And there is some talent there too, deeper than most on here realize. Espescially our post game.

The NBA is dominated by black people, that is the fact. but to say white people can't dominate, or any other race can't, is just insane to me. Yao Ming is the most dominate C, he just always gets injured.

All we are trying to do is bring in people who fit the mold. Maybe good "white American" talent is being overlooked and we have banked on that because IMO Foster is way underpaid/undervalued. You have deep European talent and the black American talent pool hasn't dried up any. Neither has the African talent pool. We are still due another Hakeem and Mutombo. Maybe we are due another Larry Bird.

If we got a hard working winner from any corner of the planet, it would be the goal of our PR. This dicussion is just pointless and to have such a discussion is being closed minded to race. It's not like Larry played for Indiana and was our last superstar. Indiana loved Reggie Miller. Give us another Reggie and paint him orange, he will be loved as well.

Rajah Brown
07-20-2008, 08:14 AM
Hockey too ? Good luck with that one.

Hicks
07-20-2008, 09:05 AM
Aside from agreeing with everyone that thinks the answer to the question at hand is a resounding, "NO," let me just add that threads like this are by nature on thin ice here. If things take a dive (outrageous comments, anger outburst, going from NBA to just political), it will be closed.

And at this point, the question has already been answered soundly many times over, so if it does it won't be a huge loss.

Jonathan
07-20-2008, 10:08 AM
Hockey too ? Good luck with that one.

Do you remember Chris Rock as Nat X on Saturday Night Live?

pacers31tc
07-20-2008, 10:27 AM
Let's be honest here...

Let's say 0% of the people who have posted in this thread are "racist" (aka "think Bird has targeted acquiring white players b/c of any perceived decrease in off-court problems, more character, etc.)

While it's unsafe to make an assumption that white players in general possess better character or less off-court problems, there are hundreds of thousands of white people (think rural Indiana, many old white guys, and other groups) who have fallen off b/c of the Pacers off-court problems.

All I'm saying is there are certain groups who will always think white people/players are better as far as character, etc. And I don't think there is any doubt that the Jack/Al trade for Murph/Dun was an attempt to bring in perceived character in exchange for Jack's off-court issues.

IMHO, some people will never get over this issue, b/c of the way they grew up, etc. We all know those people who have an old white grandfather who is a democrat but would die before voting for Obama.

That's all I've got...

2minutes twowa
07-20-2008, 12:29 PM
The only color that matters in professional sports is GREEN!

count55
07-20-2008, 12:29 PM
There's a really good book by David Halberstam called Breaks of the Game, where he spent the '78-79 season with the Portland TrailBlazers. It's been probably 20+ years since I read it, but it talks about the NBA habit of keeping the end of the bench white. What I recall is that the black players referred to it as "stealing".

While I cannot say definitively what's in the hearts and minds of others, I have little doubt that there are instances, perhaps commonplace ones, where a fringe white player is kept over an equally or perhaps even slightly more talented black player.

That being said, I don't particularly believe that there is a "white-washing" of the Pacers going on at the moment. The two strongest pieces of evidence were Larry Bird's well-publicized comments a few years ago and the GS trade.

Bird's comments are difficult. There's really very little question that there's some truth to them. What I can't speak to is whether there is an inherent racism to them. Or, more accurately, whether Bird's motivation is personal and based on race. This will always linger, and I don't know how to refute or confirm it, so I'll just leave it.

The GS trade, in my mind, was always about the price you pay and the style of ball. Bird was looking to move Jackson (who, at the time, may have had a lower market value than Tinsley currently has) and to bring in players to create space around JO. Murphleavy supposedly would fit better with JO (though I don't think that was actually proven true), but more to the point, they were "the price you had to pay." In other words, they were ugly contracts. They have also started to show that they are moderately productive players that can actually contribute to the team. I really don't believe it was a whitewashing here, at all.

Now, the trades this summer are completely useless in arguing a whitewash. The players targeted in the trades were TJ Ford, Roy Hibbert, Brandon Rush, and Jarrett Jack. The two whites (Rasho and McBob) were largely salary filler (along with Maceo Baston). In fact, the "character guys" were Hibbert and Jack, while McBob is considered to be iffy, by some.

Travis Diener was one of four free agents signed last year, and was the only white player. Kareem Rush (at SG) and Andre Owens (at PG) were given shots at starting before Diener got his...then Diener lost his starting position to Flip Murray when he was signed.

Does McBob have an edge over Graham for the last roster spot because he's white, or because he's local, or even at all? It's tough to say. However, I believe, more firmly now this summer, that Bird, etal, are looking to bring in players for their vision in terms of on-the-court skills and off-the-court character, but that race is not driving their decisions.

idioteque
07-20-2008, 12:34 PM
I used to be suspicious of that but I don't think it is the case at all anymore.

The last American born white player the Pacers drafted in the first round was Austin in 1997. The last Euro in the first was Primoz in 2000. That was all a pretty long time ago.

Besides the Dunleavy trade is there any sort of trade where the Pacers have obtained a whole bunch of white players. Both players we drafted this year were black. We obtained 5 new black players in trades this year. There is nothing racial going on.

BlueNGold
07-20-2008, 12:39 PM
I think the pendulum has swung recently with Dunleavy and Murphy trade, but I doubt it was anything more than happenstance. It will swing back again over time. Our #1 picks were both black...and our two new back court guys are black. McRoberts is trade fodder and will not make the team anyway.

Other issues have to due with competition and upgrades. Rasho is better than both David Harrison and Ike...and it's not close. Diener outplayed Owens and earned the starting spot...but he will get sent down to third string now. Foster is solid as ever. I'm sure we would replace him with Bynum.

Other reasons are the legal issues....certainly nothing TPTB wanted to happen. We've lost Tinsley, Jackson, Harrison and probably now Williams due to legal/behavior issues. Also, we would NOT have traded JO but-for his injuries and the need to rebuild...and even with that trade we acquired 3 of 4 who are black (Hibbert, Ford, Jack). Danny Granger is the star of this team. No, I don't think race in and of itself has much to do with the current state. It's impact is certainly there, but no intent.

pacers31tc
07-20-2008, 01:41 PM
I think the timing of the Murphy/MDJ/Jack trade was the biggest factor. They were desperate to dump Jack for character guys. That issue isn't quite as important now as it was then, but even so, we're still trying to get rid of off-court prob players (Tins and Shawn-ee mostly), and still trying to bring in quality character guys (Hibbert, Ford, Rush) no matter what color they are.

Roaming Gnome
07-20-2008, 01:53 PM
I personally don't believe that our roster is being steered by the race of the players.

As for the notion of shuting down this thread... nah, I think it is good discussion as long as it stays civil like Hicks mentioned earlier.

juadam09
07-20-2008, 01:54 PM
The only color that matters in professional sports is GREEN!

Exactly!

Rajah Brown
07-20-2008, 01:57 PM
Jonathon-

Nope. But I'm guessing it had to be pretty funny.

I was of course just facetiously responding to Croz24. I'm not
a hockey fan so I may have missed it, but has there ever been
an Af-Am hockey player ?

Kstat
07-20-2008, 02:26 PM
I'm not
a hockey fan so I may have missed it, but has there ever been
an Af-Am hockey player ?

:laugh: There's been black players in the NHL for the last 35 years. The first black player to play pro hockey played 50 years ago.

Trader Joe
07-20-2008, 03:01 PM
I believe that most people in this state wouldn't care if our players are purple with green polka dots on their skin if they were winning basketball games.

Peck
07-20-2008, 03:36 PM
Donnie Walsh has said he made the trade with Golden State.

Larry Bird has said Donnie Walsh made the trade with Golden State.

Chris Mullen has said Donnie Walsh made the trade with Golden State.

I have a feeling that if we had video, audio and even notarized documents showing Walsh & Mullen making the deal that there would still be those out there that would want to blame Bird.

Unclebuck
07-20-2008, 03:42 PM
There's a really good book by David Halberstam called Breaks of the Game, where he spent the '78-79 season with the Portland TrailBlazers. It's been probably 20+ years since I read it, but it talks about the NBA habit of keeping the end of the bench white. What I recall is that the black players referred to it as "stealing".




I read that book, but that was 30 years ago and the NBA and sociey was very different. I don't think that book has any relavance today.

to answer the question of the thread - NO

The Jumpshot Still Money
07-20-2008, 04:00 PM
glad you're finally seeing it

ABADays
07-20-2008, 04:27 PM
This is an especially high percentage for an NBA team, especially when something like 90% of the league is black . . . Last season a friend texted me "Do the Pacers know the league is desegregated?"

Ok - so the league is 90% black which would indicate a great deal of segregation. Right? It was pretty much a stupid comment he sent to you.

CableKC
07-20-2008, 05:19 PM
Bird wants players with Basketball smarts that can fit into the offense/defense that JO'B runs.

Hibbert was a good example of this....many draft scouts thought that he was a good player but wouldn't necessarily fit the up-tempo offense we run....but one of the reasons that Bird drafted him was cuz he was a smart player that also had a good head on his shoulder....same goes for Rush.

Diener wasn't signed cuz he was white...he was signed cuz he was an acceptable backup PG that was good at pushing the tempo of the ball...which fits what JO'B was trying to do. One of the reasons that Dunleavy was brought in was cuz of his basketball smarts and all-around skills. Foster is here cuz he's a good hustle energy rebounder coming off the bench. Murphy was traded for...well, I don't know why we brought him in....but he's doing fairly well in our offense. As for McRoberts....he was traded for cuz of his contract and is filler.

The fact that all of the players are white are coincidental.

McKeyFan
07-20-2008, 05:20 PM
This thread is just so full of wrong..

I recommend immediate shutdown. Coloured??

The word "coloured" shows a disturbing racial bias. Specifically, the use of the letter "u".

Damn Brits.

Putnam
07-20-2008, 05:29 PM
The word "coloured" shows a disturbing racial bias. Specifically, the use of the letter "u".

Damn Brits.


Yer the greatest, McKey Fan!

CableKC
07-20-2008, 07:37 PM
BTW....why does this topic come up every other couple of months?

It's not like we haven't discussed this before...ad nasuem.

VF21
07-20-2008, 09:33 PM
But I do wonder how players on other teams, and other team's fans, interpret this.

As a Kings fan, I interpret it as a non-issue. Of course, we've had players like Mike Bibby and Doug Christie, whose race isn't immediately obvious. I can't count the number of times someone was actually more worried about Bibby's mother's family than whether or not he could actually dish inside to a cutting Webber on a reverse roll.

I personally don't care if my team is composed of white, black, brown, yellow, red or chartreuse players - although they do need to look good in purple. It actually puzzles me that someone even cares.

;)

Country Boy
07-20-2008, 09:38 PM
OP, must in some way have a problem with having white players on the team, or why would he even bring it up for discussion?

Big Smooth
07-20-2008, 09:59 PM
No, I don't believe the Pacers have intentionally tried to increase the ratio of white players to black players. All they have done is try to unload the baggage of the past. The fact that a small handful of the players added to the team in the recent past are white, I don't see how that means anything. In fact, the Pacers have added more black players than white players lately.

Now I do recall some folks not being all that pleased with Murphleavy and their collective contracts but to spin that dislike into blaming their presence on the roster as part of a whitening effort.....no. It was pretty much the best available deal for unloading SJax at the time. And it was Donnie's call. Donnie is gone. Larry is looking for players, period. I don't see any color filter.

Major Cold
07-20-2008, 10:48 PM
So this is off-topic but I was at a "religious" camp last week and we were taking a picture. The photographer was standing on a ladder trying to get 150 people clearly into the picture. Everything was fine until he called a counselor coloured. He laughed it off but I have noticed that NE Indiana it seems it is accepted by some blacks. I have a freshman guy at work where he calls himself coloured. My wife had students say black and then change quickly to coloured, thinking that black was racist. All I am saying is for some reason some people think coloured is the correct word to describe fellow humans who were not from native America, Europe, Asia, or any other continent but Africa.


Delete this if you need to. Oh yeah and the Simmons are not racists. Bird is not a racist. Zeke was not racist. And Magic is not racist. You want to know racists go to Elwood with a non-Caucasian.

jeffg-body
07-20-2008, 11:02 PM
I just don't see it myself. I think we are looking for good players and good community members at the same time.

TheDon
07-21-2008, 12:49 AM
I believe that most people in this state wouldn't care if our players are purple with green polka dots on their skin if they were winning basketball games.


Oh I do, those purple people with green polka dots are the worst if they were green people with purple polka dots maybe...but come on..the line has to be drawn somewhere...:p

GrangerRanger
07-21-2008, 01:17 AM
well, if the lack of blacks in baseball, hockey, golf, and motor sports needs to be addressed, then so does the lack of white americans in the nba

I think this should be nominated for post of the year.

Naptown_Seth
07-21-2008, 02:35 AM
Let's be honest here...

Let's say 0% of the people who have posted in this thread are "racist" (aka "think Bird has targeted acquiring white players b/c of any perceived decrease in off-court problems, more character, etc.)

While it's unsafe to make an assumption that white players in general possess better character or less off-court problems, there are hundreds of thousands of white people (think rural Indiana, many old white guys, and other groups) who have fallen off b/c of the Pacers off-court problems.

All I'm saying is there are certain groups who will always think white people/players are better as far as character, etc. And I don't think there is any doubt that the Jack/Al trade for Murph/Dun was an attempt to bring in perceived character in exchange for Jack's off-court issues.

IMHO, some people will never get over this issue, b/c of the way they grew up, etc. We all know those people who have an old white grandfather who is a democrat but would die before voting for Obama.

That's all I've got...
I hate to say it but as a person that lives in the state and has traveled all over it, this is sadly true. And it's not limited to "old", it's still being passed on. I had a stomach turning discussion with a college degreed guy of about 35 years old on the subject of Obama and his terrorist agenda. I won't even get into the off hand racist comments I have to overlook in a lot of circles (where fighting about it gains you nothing). If it's someone that matters to me I'll say something so they know I don't appreciate it.

The city/state is frustrating, and at times it makes me want to move back out. But then by staying I figure that's one more person not like this that lives here.


But I don't think the Pacers are targeting skin color as a goal in the least. Why? Well let's see.

Rush, Hibbert, Jack, and Ford are 4 of the 5 biggest off season acquisitions. When Brad Miller couldn't be reasonably resigned (and now we wonder about their views of his off court issues) they let him go.

They made one bad trade, the GS trade, and that was a financial mistake mostly. It happened to involve 2 black players swapped for 2 white players mostly, though a white player (Saras) did go out in exchange for 2 black players as well (Ike, McLeod).

Foster was a great draft pick. Ball Kid was a solid signing for need and price. What else is there? I don't see a white agenda in total. Certainly the "racist" fans didn't pour back into the arena to see Dun/Troy. In fact it was more empty than ever thanks to all the losing.

I'd bet that a lot of the "problem" citizens of the state weren't involved with the Pacers fanbase in the first place. The people they lost aren't these type of people, they are just people either frustrated by the incidents or frustrated by the losing/crap basketball.

Roaming Gnome
07-21-2008, 08:22 AM
So this is off-topic but I was at a "religious" camp last week and we were taking a picture. The photographer was standing on a ladder trying to get 150 people clearly into the picture. Everything was fine until he called a counselor coloured. He laughed it off but I have noticed that NE Indiana it seems it is accepted by some blacks. I have a freshman guy at work where he calls himself coloured. My wife had students say black and then change quickly to coloured, thinking that black was racist. All I am saying is for some reason some people think coloured is the correct word to describe fellow humans who were not from native America, Europe, Asia, or any other continent but Africa.


Delete this if you need to. Oh yeah and the Simmons are not racists. Bird is not a racist. Zeke was not racist. And Magic is not racist. You want to know racists go to Elwood with a non-Caucasian.


quickly here..I'm from Fort Wayne (NE Indiana), and "black" and there is no time that I consider being labeled as "colored" acceptable. I've been refered to it a few times, but it is usually by someone in their 50's or older. In all of my social circles, being refered to as colored is pretty close to being labeled "spook", darky, or any other derogitive slur just short of ni**er.

Now with that said... Being refered to as "colored" doesn't bother me to the point where I'm going to get terribly upset, but I could see where someone would. Personally, I'd just tell someone not to refer to me as "colored" and go from there. Usually, that is good enough to solve any problem.

As far as your wife's student, he was better off staying with the "black" reference, then the colored reference.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 08:41 AM
I hate to say it but as a person that lives in the state and has traveled all over it, this is sadly true. And it's not limited to "old", it's still being passed on. I had a stomach turning discussion with a college degreed guy of about 35 years old on the subject of Obama and his terrorist agenda. I won't even get into the off hand racist comments I have to overlook in a lot of circles (where fighting about it gains you nothing). If it's someone that matters to me I'll say something so they know I don't appreciate it.

The city/state is frustrating, and at times it makes me want to move back out. But then by staying I figure that's one more person not like this that lives here.


But I don't think the Pacers are targeting skin color as a goal in the least. Why? Well let's see.

Rush, Hibbert, Jack, and Ford are 4 of the 5 biggest off season acquisitions. When Brad Miller couldn't be reasonably resigned (and now we wonder about their views of his off court issues) they let him go.

They made one bad trade, the GS trade, and that was a financial mistake mostly. It happened to involve 2 black players swapped for 2 white players mostly, though a white player (Saras) did go out in exchange for 2 black players as well (Ike, McLeod).

Foster was a great draft pick. Ball Kid was a solid signing for need and price. What else is there? I don't see a white agenda in total. Certainly the "racist" fans didn't pour back into the arena to see Dun/Troy. In fact it was more empty than ever thanks to all the losing.

I'd bet that a lot of the "problem" citizens of the state weren't involved with the Pacers fanbase in the first place. The people they lost aren't these type of people, they are just people either frustrated by the incidents or frustrated by the losing/crap basketball.

I agree that most of rural Indiana (I'm talking to YOU Martinsville) is still way behind the times and some people in the city still have their issues as well, but like you I don't believe the Pacers are motivated by it.

BillS
07-21-2008, 08:58 AM
quickly here..I'm from Fort Wayne (NE Indiana), and "black" and there is no time that I consider being labeled as "colored" acceptable. I've been refered to it a few times, but it is usually by someone in their 50's or older. In all of my social circles, being refered to as colored is pretty close to being labeled "spook", darky, or any other derogitive slur just short of ni**er.

Now with that said... Being refered to as "colored" doesn't bother me to the point where I'm going to get terribly upset, but I could see where someone would. Personally, I'd just tell someone not to refer to me as "colored" and go from there. Usually, that is good enough to solve any problem.

As far as your wife's student, he was better off staying with the "black" reference, then the colored reference.

I wonder if the confusion was over the phrase "person of color", which in some areas has gained acceptance as a term to refer to anyone non-Caucasian.

It also hasn't been very long since Jesse Jackson and others raised some fuss over no longer using "black" or "Afro-American" in favor of "African-American".

From a person of non-color perspective, it is easy to get confused and wonder what you are supposed to do.

Roaming Gnome
07-21-2008, 08:59 AM
As for Larry Bird,

We are talking about a guy that would step on his own mother to WIN, so I don't believe for a second that he would let that goal be distracted by the race of the players he wants on the team.

Rajah Brown
07-21-2008, 09:01 AM
KStat-

To quote the late, great Johhny Carson, no, 'I did not know that'.

But, aside from the 1980 Olympics experience, I'm completely
uninterested and clueless when it comes to hockey.

Roaming Gnome
07-21-2008, 09:12 AM
I wonder if the confusion was over the phrase "person of color", which in some areas has gained acceptance as a term to refer to anyone non-Caucasian.

It also hasn't been very long since Jesse Jackson and others raised some fuss over no longer using "black" or "Afro-American" in favor of "African-American".

From a person of non-color perspective, it is easy to get confused and wonder what you are supposed to do.

"Person of color" or "man of color" is a phrase that doesn't draw the same ire as "those coloreds". As for Jesse Jackson, I could give a ***** about what he wants, the man is a clown that figures less then creative ways to keep himself in the news. I get so tired of his... nevermind! Unlike J. Jackson, I can only speak for myself and have never refered to my race other then "black".

I am a man of color and I will agree with you on the fact that it is easy to get confused. That is why I don't fuc* with it more then saying I'm black, or best yet....

I'm just american!!

BillS
07-21-2008, 10:43 AM
"Person of color" or "man of color" is a phrase that doesn't draw the same ire as "those coloreds".

I meant that the teacher may have heard someone say "person of color" and elided it to "colored" because that was a phrase heard more often in the past.

And there is no question based on your previous services to the Digest that you are The Man. :woot:

Putnam
07-21-2008, 10:54 AM
I meant that the teacher may have heard someone say "person of color" and elided it to "colored" because that was a phrase heard more often in the past.

And there is no question based on your previous services to the Digest that you are The Man. :woot:


No kidding! He's the guy who posted to the counting thread while sitting in the dentist's chair.

58

Major Cold
07-21-2008, 10:59 AM
I am shocked every time someone refers to any people as colored. I was raised better than that.

Putnam
07-21-2008, 11:45 AM
I am shocked every time someone refers to any people as colored. I was raised better than that.


That's not reasonable, I-co. "Colored" was the polite word to use up through the mid-70s. Many well-raised and courteous people still use that word from force of habit.

I don't mean to criticize you. You are doing your best to avoid giving offense, which is the right thing to do. But you aren't "better" just because you grew up while the phrase was out of fashion.

FerengiMiller
07-21-2008, 11:57 AM
Yeah good call a "whitewash" thats really the case... Knowing we just brought in 7 brand new players of which 71% are African-American...

SHUT UP!

Jonathan
07-21-2008, 12:04 PM
Brad Miller & Chris Anderson have had suspensions for substance abuse.

Bobby Hurley drinking & driving.

What hurts the Pacer's the most is that our image has been tarnished since the brawl. Compare this Brad Miller situation to Shawne Williams, anytime a pacers player gets in trouble for anything the word PACER is in the news story. In fact, I am suprised the article did not read FORMER PACER BRAD MILLER TEST POSITIVE FOR THIRD TIME.

McKeyFan
07-21-2008, 12:09 PM
I meant that the teacher may have heard someone say "person of color" and elided it to "colored" because that was a phrase heard more often in the past.

And there is no question based on your previous services to the Digest that you are The Man. :woot:

Agreed. There are certainly some older folks still around who are, in their own mind, being polite by using colored.

Very few, though. Most people aren't that old, and most of the ones that are, have a little more awareness. But it's possible.

Likewise, "person of color" is a bit confusing. I understand that phrase to be quite politically correct. Anyone bumping up to that phrase is likely aware enough not to confuse it with "colored," but you never know.


Anyway, beyond all that, this thread is a great reminder to me of the colorblindedness of this forum. Literally. We don't the color of the person posting. How would I ever know that Roaming Gnome, one of the forum's better contributors, is black?

Similarly, I have a black guy as my avatar. How many people subconsciously assume I am black? I know I did that with Kstat because he had Rip as an avatar for a long time. Heck, he may be black. I don't know.

Anyway, it makes for a pretty cool break from reality to interact in a forum where the typical assumptions and prejudices are often absent.

BlueNGold
07-21-2008, 12:17 PM
That's not reasonable, I-co. "Colored" was the polite word to use up through the mid-70s. Many well-raised and courteous people still use that word from force of habit.

I don't mean to criticize you. You are doing your best to avoid giving offense, which is the right thing to do. But you aren't "better" just because you grew up while the phrase was out of fashion.

I would not be surprised if you were correct. I have heard the term used by white people with no bad intent at all. Exclusively people over 50 at the present time. This might be a case of both sides needing to understand the other's.

BTW, it's pretty precarious attempting to ascertain what is ok and what's not to say. I suspect it depends on audience as well, region of the country, etc.

ABADays
07-21-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm just curious about something Gnome. In light of the linguistic changes why haven't the NAACP and United Negro College Fund changed their names? And for a lot of you, I was around when there were such things as "Colored" drinking fountains and "Colored" restrooms but colored is not in my vocabulary.

BlueNGold
07-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Here you all go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored

Source: Wiki

crunk-juice
07-21-2008, 12:49 PM
i remember last season looking at the court and seeing Diener, Dunleavy, Murphy, and Foster at that same time. it was pretty funny. i wonder what the other team was thinking?

Robertmto
07-21-2008, 12:54 PM
i remember last season looking at the court and seeing Diener, Dunleavy, Murphy, and Foster at that same time. it was pretty funny. i wonder what the other team was thinking?

W

PaceBalls
07-21-2008, 01:10 PM
/rant on

I love hanging out with little kids who can't understand the difference in race. Instead of "my black friend Jimmy" it's just "my friend Jimmy".

Isn't racism really about defining someone based on their differences in race? Shouldn't the color of your skin be only as important as the color of your eyes? If it isn't to you, you should probably ask yourself, why not?

That's why this thread sucks balls, and is nothing but troll bait.

On the topic at hand, it is totally asinine to think this team is being molded around white people. There is, what, 4 white guys on the team out of 16...

/rant off

RWB
07-21-2008, 01:32 PM
The city/state is frustrating, and at times it makes me want to move back out. But then by staying I figure that's one more person not like this that lives here.


So where are you going to move to exactly in search of this Utopia? Seth I really don't mean this as a slam but it seems when this conversation comes up it's always Indiana is generalized as a redneck/racist haven. I absolutely believe you know or work with bigots. However I also believe if you lived or worked in Illinois, Ohio, New York, or CA you could claim the same.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-21-2008, 01:35 PM
Technically, there are six white guys on the Pacers. Five of them will play prominent roles next season. Foster, Murphy, Dunleavy, Rasho and maybe Travis.

I'm not so sure this topic can be pushed aside as easily as some of you want it to be. Consider these comments.....

ESPN host Jim Gray asked Bird whether the NBA lacks enough white superstars.
"Well, I think so," said Bird, the Indiana Pacers' president of basketball operations. "You know, when I played, you had me and Kevin [McHale] and some others throughout the league. I think it's good for a fan base because, as we all know, the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. But it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American."



Yet later in the discussion, Bird described being guarded by another white in his prime as "disrespect."
"The one thing that always bothered me when I played in the NBA was I really got irritated when they put a white guy on me," Bird said. "I still don't understand why. A white guy would come out (and) I would always ask him: 'What, do you have a problem with your coach? Did your coach do this to you?' And he'd go, 'No,' and I'd say, 'Come on, you got a white guy coming out here to guard me; you got no chance.' ... For some reason, that always bothered me when I was playing against a white guy.
"As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black," Bird added. "I just didn't want a white guy guarding me. Because it's disrespect to my game."

Bird has declined to comment further, according to a Pacers spokesman

Those comments were swiped form the ESPN website they gave no credit to an author so I guess I don't have to here's the link....

Article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1818396)


On one hand he says the NBA needs more white stars and think it's sells the product to white America on the other hand he was disrespected when a white guy would guard him. Who knows? He's certainly a bumpkin and an embarrassment to Hoosiers and white people despite his ability to play a game better than me.

idioteque
07-21-2008, 01:42 PM
So where are you going to move to exactly in search of this Utopia? Seth I really don't mean this as a slam but it seems when this conversation comes up it's always Indiana is generalized as a redneck/racist haven. I absolutely believe you know or work with bigots. However I also believe if you lived or worked in Illinois, Ohio, New York, or CA you could claim the same.

Not really. I don't mean this as an ******* question but have you ever lived outside of Indiana?

Bball
07-21-2008, 01:46 PM
Donnie Walsh has said he made the trade with Golden State.

Larry Bird has said Donnie Walsh made the trade with Golden State.

Chris Mullen has said Donnie Walsh made the trade with Golden State.

I have a feeling that if we had video, audio and even notarized documents showing Walsh & Mullen making the deal that there would still be those out there that would want to blame Bird.

But you're neglecting to mention that Bird had him tied and at gunpoint (probably a gun from a rifle rack in the back window of Bird's rusted pickup) when Walsh did all that.

--
99.9% of the time when I talk about people I simply don't even mention their race unless it's relevant to the discussion.... which it rarely is.

-Bball

idioteque
07-21-2008, 01:52 PM
\I think it's good for a fan base because, as we all know, the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited.


Is that really an indictment on Bird or on white America as a whole?

ChicagoJ
07-21-2008, 02:00 PM
One of the columnists in the Chicago Tribune is running a series of articles on race relations.

We as a society may use more politically correct language today, but the statistics show the underlying issues are not showing real improvement.

PD isn't really the place for this debate, but to pretend that our society is getting better at race relations just because we use language that is more politically correct is missing the point.

Race is a real problem in urban areas, not just rural Indiana.

By the way, I remember my grandmother in rural central Indiana (Morristown, for those keeping score) back in the 70s had a saying,

"My skin turns red when I'm sunburned, flush when I'm embarrased, blue when I'm cold and pale white when I'm scared. Who exactly is 'colored' in the first place?"

For what its worth... (and apologies for making this thread even more about race and less about basketball.)

Back to basketball...

Do I think Bird & Company are intentionally making the team "more white"? No. But I do think that Bird & Company are trying to assemble a team that is going to be competitive (a few years from now) AND reflects its perceived fan base. If choosing between a bad citizen and bad contract, it doesn't hurt that the bad contract is of a caucasian player.

But, again, I don't think the mandate is "get more white Americans on the team."

RWB
07-21-2008, 02:00 PM
Not really. I don't mean this as an ******* question but have you ever lived outside of Indiana?

No I haven't. However that might apply if we still rode horses and communicated with tin cans. DC, I'm not trying to be an ******* either with that retort. I seriously just spent 4 hours this morning on the campus of U of I listening to a workshop on Anti-Terrorism which dealt with more domestic (American hate groups) than international.

I've had to study more crap on World Church of the Creator and Yahweh's Sanctuary (as someone posted the Martinsville problem) than I care to remember.

I'm not trying to argue the point there are racist or ignorant people in Indiana. I do get tired with the generalization that this state is so above and beyond in their racist beliefs than anyone else.

idioteque
07-21-2008, 02:05 PM
I've worked at a law firm in Indiana and a law firm here in Washington. I had the same black girlfriend and the reactions were very different.

I don't think Indiana is the worst state with racism by any means, believe me I have been to the Deep South and there is absolutely no comparison. Black people there would walk to the other side of the street out of deference to whites. And this was in 2005.

Racial attitudes on the whole are much different on the East coast than they are in the Midwest. But that's overall. Of course there are plenty of more progressive folks in Indiana, I'm not arguing that.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-21-2008, 02:05 PM
He's the one who made those beliefs public and now he's the one running the team and as it stands the Pacers will run out with 5 white guys in the main rotation. I don't think that's the approach they have in mind but you don't really have to be a whacky conspiracy theorist to come to that conclusion.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-21-2008, 02:13 PM
I'd also like to mention that while it doesn't really matter if they're white or not, noticing it and even pointing it out doesn't make you a racist. It's something any person would see and at least subliminally think about.

Unclebuck
07-21-2008, 02:23 PM
To answer the question - No I don't think it is intentional. If it is then it is a really stupid approach to take. Most fans want to see good basketball and good players whether white or black, whether born in the US or not.

The only player (over the past 10 years or so) that IMO didn't deserve the love from the fans that he got was Croshere. He was loved at the Fieldhouse (although not in this forum) and I never figured out why - the thought that he was white I think maybe in a small way had something to do with it.

Is Diener popular because he is white - or because he is so small and cute - or because he seemingly plays as hard as he can all the time.

Is Tinsley unpoluar because he is black or because it looks like he doesn't care half the time and the other half he is injured.

I think for 99.9% of the fans it doesn't matter if a player is black or white. But then I've been told I am naive about a lot of things.


Me, personally - I don't see color (thank my parents for that) although my two favorite players on the team last season were Foster and Diener - liked Dunleavy also - Oh no, I'm racist.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 02:27 PM
RE: Croshere
Runi got massive standing ovations til the day he was traded, and I mean massive. Only JO got bigger cheers than Runi.

Major Cold
07-21-2008, 02:29 PM
That's not reasonable, I-co. "Colored" was the polite word to use up through the mid-70s. Many well-raised and courteous people still use that word from force of habit.

I don't mean to criticize you. You are doing your best to avoid giving offense, which is the right thing to do. But you aren't "better" just because you grew up while the phrase was out of fashion.


I didn't grow up in the mid 70s. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. And from where I am from you better not call people colored. I may have lived 20 miles from Elwood but we knew better growing up. The African-American community made it known that colored was not acceptable. Therefore we respected that. In the 70s I am guessing that people of color was acceptable and maybe blacks was not. IDK but for me, my time growing up, and my demographic we knew better to call a particular race a name they did not like. Just like your time and demographic used the "polite" word.

circlecitysportsfan
07-21-2008, 02:32 PM
RE: Croshere
Runi got massive standing ovations til the day he was traded, and I mean massive. Only JO got bigger cheers than Runi.


That reminds me of a game I went to in 1997. It was one of the first games of the year vs the Heat. Tony Davis game in, little applause, Jalen comes in, little applause. Then Hoiberg comes in and the place goes crazy. I didn't understand it because Davis and Rose were better players. So when I get home I told my dad and he said "Hoiberg is more like them".

Speed
07-21-2008, 02:37 PM
I don't try to see ethnicity, I do, however, distinctly notice stupidity.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 02:37 PM
Well Hoiberg had his reasons for being cheered for, played his butt off and hustled around. Runi though just dumb founded me. He was the exact opposite of what most Indiana basketball fans like in a player. Didn't try, thought he was bigger than the team and his teammates, mediocre shooter at best. Just never could figure out what other Pacer fans liked about him.

Like I've said though, I don't think Bird is letting this type of foolishness influence his decision making.

Taterhead
07-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Is that really an indictment on Bird or on white America as a whole?

How could Larry Birds opinion an indictment on white America as a whole? And what is really wrong with what he said other than the "bigot" views he expressed towards his own race?

I do wish there were more American white players in the NBA doing well. American born white players are virtually extinct. If you formed a team consisting of the top white American players in the league right now, they couldn't even make the playoffs in the western conference, and maybe even the east. And that is a proposed All Star team from an entire race that makes up the majority of the population.

But that has nothing to do with my views on black players. And I think it's good for basketball to have great players from all races and places. It's only natural to want your own race to do well in a sport, and there is nothing wrong with that. And it doesn't mean you don't enjoy/root for/admire and respect players of other races and nationalities.

Birds' comments about white players playing defense were ridiculous. Bird himself was a very good defender, so I just wonder where his logic comes from? I mean, not many players had a chance guarding Bird, black or white.

Major Cold
07-21-2008, 02:43 PM
I think for 99.9% of the fans it doesn't matter if a player is black or white. But then I've been told I am naive about a lot of things.


But not many NBA fans are racists right? I would wager a bet to say that racists do not like the NBA because it is black dominant and a black culture.

So does that mean that those who say that Bird is racist are saying he beats the odds, and living in a culture so against his social believes? Or can there be degrees of racism?

A racist is a racist, but they display that racism in different forms.

Whtwudusay
07-21-2008, 02:43 PM
Well Hoiberg had his reasons for being cheered for, played his butt off and hustled around. Runi though just dumb founded me. He was the exact opposite of what most Indiana basketball fans like in a player. Didn't try, thought he was bigger than the team and his teammates, mediocre shooter at best. Just never could figure out what other Pacer fans liked about him.

Like I've said though, I don't think Bird is letting this type of foolishness influence his decision making.

Could it have been the hype that surrounded him when he was brought in? It's a pretty weak argument, but I remember him being really hyped up by the team and the general media during his time with the Pacers. It was mostly places like PD that I saw people actually pointing out his flaws (mediocre shooter, couldn't bring the ball up court against pressure, etc.)

I'm not sure.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 02:44 PM
No, I definetely think there were other reasons to Runi receiving those large cheers. Even when he came in and played horribly and would get his butt yanked in two or three minutes of play he'd get a very good cheer as he walked off the court as well.

Gyron
07-21-2008, 02:45 PM
Not really. I don't mean this as an ******* question but have you ever lived outside of Indiana?

I have and I happen to agree with RWB.

Putnam
07-21-2008, 02:45 PM
In the 70s I am guessing that people of color was acceptable and maybe blacks was not.


Within my memory the preferred term has gone from "Negro" to "colored" to "black" to "African-American."

It doesn't matter what the term is. We all ought to do our best to show courtesy to everyone, including someone who has fallen behind of the trend of politically correct speech.


I also have lived outside Indiana a lot of years. I contend that race relations in our state are pretty ordinary: not good enough, but no worse than in the rest of the country.

It is funny that dcpacerfan is pointing fingers. He lives in a city where the police planned a sting operation to entrap the elected mayor in a hotel room with drugs, a loose woman and a video camera.

When Ledbelly wanted to write a song about bigotry what did he say?

Listen here people,
Listen to me,
Don't try to find a home in
Washington DC,
'Cause its a bouorgeoise town

idioteque
07-21-2008, 02:57 PM
I have and I happen to agree with RWB.

My friends in Washington and my friends in Indiana have pretty different opinions toward race. Racism among whites in DC from my experience seems to be pretty low, probably because there aren't many racists who would be willing to live in a black majority city.

But I'm not saying Indiana is horrible, either. People love to think of Shelby County (my hometown) as some racist hellhole but I have black friends from there who have never complained to me at least about being in any racially stingy situations.

Putty- Pointing fingers? Really? I don't think I've tried at all to condemn Indiana as terrible in my posts.

Gyron
07-21-2008, 03:01 PM
I've lived in several of our great states and traveled more than my far share in this great country. And I can tell you that while certain areas may be much better in terms of the overall feeling, there is still an element of racism anywhere you go.

I lived in Alabama for a while and while the area and people I were around thought nothing of race, I can definitely tell you that race still plays a major role in that state, moreso with the older generation.

Now, I will go back to posting gibberish in non serious thread like the counting thread and random thoughts.

idioteque
07-21-2008, 03:02 PM
And I can tell you that while certain areas may be much better in terms of the overall feeling, there is still an element of racism anywhere you go.



My thoughts exactly.

Country Boy
07-21-2008, 03:42 PM
And here I thought that they closed the politics board, hmm. Seriously, why is this thread still open? You have posters condemning whole towns, Martinsville and the whole state for that mattter. I wonder the response if the thread title read, "Is the increasing blackness of the NBA turning away fans? Food for thought.

Robertmto
07-21-2008, 03:43 PM
conscience's play a big part in people's posts.

Since86
07-21-2008, 04:15 PM
When Martinsville played Muncie Central in the volleyball state finals a couple of years ago, I think 2005, the student section did chant "We are the Aggies, you are the blackies,"

There is actually a reason why it has the reputation.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 04:16 PM
Martinsville socially is still living in the 1800's, but this isn't the politics board so I'll leave it at that.

dohman
07-21-2008, 05:55 PM
The number of white players on this team is not any higher then before. I have always been able to play nba live or 2k and put in a starting 5 of white players. Just because Larry Bird invented the slam dunk and teaches the white players on our team how to do it lol.


But on a serious note Indiana isn't a place where most millionares want to live. I beleive we have to take what we can get and if we end up a with a few good white players then we end up with white players.

Naptown_Seth
07-21-2008, 06:06 PM
I have and I happen to agree with RWB.
I have too and sorry to say this is no Seattle, Phoenix or Houston. Then again it's also no North Carolina which I found to be MUCH more blatent.

Indy's not the worst, but it's not "normal" either. There are reasons you might not notice.

1) You live in the city in the heart of many other progressive thinkers. Partying on Mass Ave isn't going to help you find a lot of intolerance.

2) You live someplace where few blacks exist in the first place, therefore the challenge/fear/comments/whatever rarely shows up to incite any surprising comments. Sometimes out on the fringe tolerance is high because people aren't pushed together nearly as much. Some people tolerate a guy because he's "one of the good ones". It's not till the day you hear that comment that you realize what was going on underneath.

Have a nice community group in town from out of the outliers during Black Expo and see if the reaction doesn't change a bit.


It's hit and miss, like all things you can't paint people with a broad brush. But as I also say, just when you think you are in some nice, happy environment you hear something that truly frustrates or disappoints you.

ChicagoJ
07-21-2008, 06:08 PM
While I'm not a fan of Martinsville, it isn't WHITEland for crying out loud.

One of the managers that works for me here in Chicago is from Martinsville. And I know several other people from there.

There are a number of idiots from Martinsville that have earned a bad reputation. But there are also people that disagree with the bigotry and are working (slowly) to put that in the past. Just like there are a few of us from Greenwood that, while owning up to our bad reputation, have worked to change it.

But it seems just as prejudiced to paint all of Martinsville (or Elwood, or Greenwood, or even WHITEland) as racists as it is to make other racial stereotypes.

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 06:11 PM
What about the New Palestine Red Dragons? Well, now they are just the Dragons, but still. Then there's Lebanon.

I agree, wrong for me to paint a whole city based on the actions of a select few. Doesn't make me a whole lot better than the idiots who earned their city that rep, but some of the cities have earned their rep as well. I witnessed it as recently as basketball sectionals in 2004 at Lebanon after we (Brebeuf) beat them. Some of the things being yelled by their student section were quite unsettling.

Hicks
07-21-2008, 06:20 PM
I've been lenient thus far, folks but if you're not going to make a post relating to the NBA, then please don't bother.

circlecitysportsfan
07-21-2008, 06:41 PM
Birds' comments about white players playing defense were ridiculous. Bird himself was a very good defender, so I just wonder where his logic comes from? I mean, not many players had a chance guarding Bird, black or white.

It's like your playing pick up games at the Y and the other team has a female player and they have her guard you.

MagicRat
07-21-2008, 07:12 PM
When Martinsville played Muncie Central in the volleyball state finals a couple of years ago, I think 2005, the student section did chant "We are the Aggies, you are the blackies,"

There is actually a reason why it has the reputation.

Why would they chant "We are the Aggies"? I'm going under the assumption that if you didn't get the first part right, the second part isn't right, either.....

Trader Joe
07-21-2008, 07:15 PM
I've been lenient thus far, folks but if you're not going to make a post relating to the NBA, then please don't bother.

Yeah, I apologize for taking it off topic.

I kind of feel like the thread ran its course after my very first post in here to be honest.

Hicks
07-21-2008, 08:08 PM
Yeah, I apologize for taking it off topic.

I kind of feel like the thread ran its course after my very first post in here to be honest.

Please understand, it's not any one person I'm directing that to. I hope you don't feel like I was singling you out because that wasn't what I was doing at all.

Taterhead
07-21-2008, 09:08 PM
It's like your playing pick up games at the Y and the other team has a female player and they have her guard you.

OK, whatever.

eldubious
07-21-2008, 10:26 PM
Like I've said though, I don't think Bird is letting this type of foolishness influence his decision making.

If he had drafted Koufus, then I'd probably would have supported the argument of this thread.

Gyron
07-22-2008, 09:46 AM
Edit: Deleted after I saw Hicks Post above. Sorry for being off NBA topic.

BillS
07-22-2008, 10:18 AM
I think Bird was trying to be as honest as possible about his feelings when he gave that interview, that's why you hear him saying "I don't know why I thought that". In the race debate within the NBA, we should welcome honest attempts to articulate (yeah, NOT a word normally associated with Larry Joe) attitudes and the feelings behind them.

Addressing the off-topic portion, knee-jerk reactions to "people of difference" are directly linked to how much time one is exposed to them. While the reaction isn't as easily characterized, folks in rural Indiana have stereotypical reactions to people from New Jersey or the Bronx (city slickers) that have nothing to do with race, just accent.

I lived in Atlanta for nearly 25 years. While the on-the-street diversity was greater there, I pointed out to my wife the other day that I see more mixed-race couples here (even outside Indianapolis) than I ever saw in Atlanta - which in the city itself is much more progressive than the rest of the state. Maybe they stand out more here because of the overall lack of diversity, maybe they occur more often here for the same reason, but in my mind it means that the area is slowly losing its (sometimes violent) antipathy to such things.

NuffSaid
07-22-2008, 01:41 PM
A friend recently pointed out to me that the Pacers have, in the last two years, become a significantly whiter team. We now have six white players under contract, five of which will definitely be on the team this season and four of which are at least starters or significant role players. This is an especially high percentage for an NBA team, especially when something like 90% of the league is black.

My question is, did the Indiana Pacers consciously make the decision to start building the team around white players as a reaction to the off the court issues of the last few years?

A couple notes: I am NOT calling the Pacers organization racist. Making sure to have at least a couple of white players on an NBA bench is nothing new, Red Aurebach made sure he always did in Boston (there's an article out there somewhere about the intentional racial make-up of Red's Celtics teams. I'll try and find it and post it when I can).

On a personal level, I don't think it's intentional. I think we acquired the best players we could in the trades we made, despite skin color. But I do wonder how players on other teams, and other team's fans, interpret this. Last season a friend texted me "Do the Pacers know the league is desegregated?"

So what do you guys think?
1) I think you might want to consider getting yourself some new friends... :hmm:

2) Was it intentional? That's hard to say. While I do think every team needs a good "blend" of players across racial lines if for no other reason than the fact that in most cases you're not catering to just one specific racial demographic (culture is a different story), I can't say that mgmt purposely set out to increase the number of white players by 50% over last year or so with the design to improve the ratio of white players to blacks to nearly 2:1. Here's a quick graphic of the Pacers' player movement (via trades) since February 2006:


<TABLE class=MsoTableGrid style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 480; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid windowtext; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid windowtext" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Pacers Player Movement via Trades Since Feb. 2006
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>
Team’s Racial Diff
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114 rowSpan=2>Trade Partner</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 63pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=105 colSpan=2>
Whites
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=120 colSpan=2>
Blacks
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>

</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=60>
Out
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 27pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=45>
In
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
Out
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=60>
In
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=75>
Whites
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=75>
Blacks
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Mavs</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
1
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0
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
0
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
0
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
1
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Golden ST</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 27pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=45>
2
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
3
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
2
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
-1
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Raptors</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
0
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 27pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=45>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
3
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
2
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Blazers</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
0
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 27pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=45>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
2
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
2
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
1
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
0
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Sub Totals
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
3
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
2
</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Net Player Gains
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>
5
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So, while it's true that the Pacers did gain 1 more white player over blacks via trades, there hasn't been this sweeping movement of white players over blacks. Overall, player movement has been rather balanced although if you add in signing Diener outright you would get a 2:1 ratio of the Pacers acquiring 50% more white players over blacks during this same timeframe. Still, I don't think this was something conscious on their part. It just happened.

Since86
07-22-2008, 01:51 PM
Why would they chant "We are the Aggies"? I'm going under the assumption that if you didn't get the first part right, the second part isn't right, either.....

I wasn't at the game so?? I was told that from a brother of one of the MC players. To put it nicely, he isn't the most tolerant person to begin with and he thought it was rather funny. We never played them, so I don't know what their mascot is, and the longest I've been in Martinsville is stopping at the Wendy's just off 37 on my way to IU.

I've heard the story from others as well.

ChicagoJ
07-22-2008, 01:53 PM
Martinsville A&M: Home of the "Aggies"?!?!

Trader Joe
07-22-2008, 01:56 PM
Martinsville's mascot is the Artesians. Whatever the hell that is.

ChicagoJ
07-22-2008, 01:58 PM
Its not an Aggie. I do know that.

BillS
07-22-2008, 01:59 PM
Martinsville's mascot is the Artesians. Whatever the hell that is.

Weren't they the Olympia beer gnomes?

Bball
07-22-2008, 02:00 PM
I wasn't at the game so?? I was told that from a brother of one of the MC players. To put it nicely, he isn't the most tolerant person to begin with and he thought it was rather funny. We never played them, so I don't know what their mascot is, and the longest I've been in Martinsville is stopping at the Wendy's just off 37 on my way to IU.

I've heard the story from others as well.

Isn't Martinsville the Artesians? I suppose the chant could've been "Arties" (not Aggies)... but then once the story has one part of the chant wrong it's not hard to imagine the other part was wrong as well. Sometimes people think they hear all sorts of things in these chants and many times it's their imagination.

-Bball

McKeyFan
07-22-2008, 05:57 PM
ESPN host Jim Gray asked Bird whether the NBA lacks enough white superstars.
[COLOR=Black]"Well, I think so," said Bird, the Indiana Pacers' president of basketball operations. "You know, when I played, you had me and Kevin [McHale] and some others throughout the league. I think it's good for a fan base because, as we all know, the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited.

I generally don't have a problem with Bird's comments here.

Bird is simply making an obvious observation: birds of a feather flock together (no pun intended).

People like being around their own type. And they like rooting for their own type. My little boy likes being around other boys, not girls, and my girl likes girls. High school kids like kids from their own school and like to root for their own school. If your team loses in the tournament, fans will often root for the team in their same conference.

There is nothing wrong with having an affinity for your own kind. Bird is stating the obvious and realizing more white players would be a draw for white fans. Tiger brought a larger black audience to golf. Fine.

When it goes from an affinity to your own kind to injustice, predudice and cruelty to those not of your kind, therein lies the problem. I don't believe the one has to imply the other. Often it does, but it doesn't always and doesn't have to.

Regarding Bird, his own personally history makes it clear, to me anyway, that his comments are not racially predudice. They are simply common sense.

I agree with other posters. Had he drafted a white guy who wasn't as good as a black guy, simply for crowd draw, now we're looking at a problem. That didn't happen.

spazzxb
07-22-2008, 07:31 PM
1) I think you might want to consider getting yourself some new friends... :hmm:

2) Was it intentional? That's hard to say. While I do think every team needs a good "blend" of players across racial lines if for no other reason than the fact that in most cases you're not catering to just one specific racial demographic (culture is a different story), I can't say that mgmt purposely set out to increase the number of white players by 50% over last year or so with the design to improve the ratio of white players to blacks to nearly 2:1. Here's a quick graphic of the Pacers' player movement (via trades) since February 2006:


<TABLE class=MsoTableGrid style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 480; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid windowtext; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid windowtext" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Pacers Player Movement via Trades Since Feb. 2006


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>
Team’s Racial Diff


</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114 rowSpan=2>Trade Partner</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 63pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=105 colSpan=2>
Whites


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=120 colSpan=2>
Blacks


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>


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Out


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In


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
Out


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=60>
In


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=bottom width=75>
Whites


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Blacks


</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Mavs</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
1


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0


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1


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0


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1


</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Golden ST</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
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</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 0.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=114>Raptors</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=60>
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</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
0


</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Sub Totals


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
3


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=75>
2


</TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 203.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=339 colSpan=5>
Net Player Gains


</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 1.25in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .5pt" vAlign=top width=150 colSpan=2>
5


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So, while it's true that the Pacers did gain 1 more white player over blacks via trades, there hasn't been this sweeping movement of white players over blacks. Overall, player movement has been rather balanced although if you add in signing Diener outright you would get a 2:1 ratio of the Pacers acquiring 50% more white players over blacks during this same timeframe. Still, I don't think this was something conscious on their part. It just happened.

why isn't the Mavs deffirential a negative 1?

spazzxb
07-22-2008, 07:40 PM
To answer the question - No I don't think it is intentional. If it is then it is a really stupid approach to take. Most fans want to see good basketball and good players whether white or black, whether born in the US or not.

The only player (over the past 10 years or so) that IMO didn't deserve the love from the fans that he got was Croshere. He was loved at the Fieldhouse (although not in this forum) and I never figured out why - the thought that he was white I think maybe in a small way had something to do with it.

Is Diener popular because he is white - or because he is so small and cute - or because he seemingly plays as hard as he can all the time.

Is Tinsley unpoluar because he is black or because it looks like he doesn't care half the time and the other half he is injured.

I think for 99.9% of the fans it doesn't matter if a player is black or white. But then I've been told I am naive about a lot of things.


Me, personally - I don't see color (thank my parents for that) although my two favorite players on the team last season were Foster and Diener - liked Dunleavy also - Oh no, I'm racist.

A persons color doesn't mean alot to me. However, if I need to find a person who happens to be black in a room full of white people, please tell me its the black guy instead of struggling to develop a less effective (yet far more vauge) description. I would hope being efficient wouldn't offend.

P-man
07-22-2008, 10:51 PM
As a black man I am ashamed of this post. I'm outta here.



http://i37.tinypic.com/335gp3m.jpg

kester99
07-23-2008, 01:26 AM
Please heed Hicks' admonition above and keep any comments strictly relevant to the NBA. If you want to kick around the topic of racism in your town, or your life, please take it to unPD.

It's a hot-button issue and it's easy to offend even when you don't mean to do so.



Almost forgot...kumbayah.

MrSparko
07-23-2008, 01:39 AM
I don't know what to say in this thread since i don't see color.

People tell me I'm white I just have to believe them.

I've evolved beyond that. :cool:

NuffSaid
07-23-2008, 02:10 AM
why isn't the Mavs deffirential a negative 1?
You are correct; the racial differential for Mavs trades should be -1 for white players. Here's the complete breakdown:

<table border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" frame="below" rules="rows" width="100%"> <colgroup> <col width="50*"> <col width="30*"> </colgroup> <colgroup> <col width="25*"> <col width="28*"> </colgroup> <colgroup> <col width="35*"> <col width="31*"> </colgroup> <colgroup> <col width="24*"> </colgroup> <colgroup> <col width="35*"> </colgroup> <tbody><tr> <td colspan="8" sdnum="1033;1033;@" valign="top" width="100%">
Roster Movement (Since Feb. 2006)
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
</td> <td colspan="2" sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="21%">
Overall
</td> <td colspan="4" sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="48%">
Via
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Player
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Race
</td> <td width="10%">
Loss
</td> <td width="11%">
Gain
</td> <td width="13%">
Signed
</td> <td width="12%">
Trade
</td> <td width="9%">
FA
</td> <td width="13%">
Draft
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Baston
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Bayless
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X*
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Daniels
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X

</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Diener
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
X
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Diogu
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Dunleavy
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Ford
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Graham
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
X
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Harrington
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Harrison
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Hibbert
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X*
</td> <td width="9%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Jack
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
S. Jackson
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Jasicavicis
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Marshall
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
McLeod
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
McRoberts
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td width="9%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Murphy
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Murray
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Nesterovic
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
White
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Oneal
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Owens
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Powell
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Rush, B.
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
</td> <td width="11%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
X*
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="9%">
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;General" width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="19%">
Rush, K.
</td> <td sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="12%">
Black
</td> <td width="10%">
X
</td> <td width="11%">
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> <td width="12%">
</td> <td width="9%">
X
</td> <td width="13%">
</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td colspan="2" sdnum="1033;1033;@" width="31%">
Totals
</td> <td width="10%">
13
</td> <td width="11%">
12
</td> <td width="13%">
2
</td> <td width="12%">
17
</td> <td width="9%">
6
</td> <td width="13%">
0
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Total Signees: 2 (1 Black, 1 White)
Trades:
- Outgoing: 7 (6 Black, 1 White)
- Incoming: 10 (6 Black, 4 White)
Total Trades: 17 (*includes 3 draft-day trades)
Free Agents (FA):
- Outgoing: 6 (Black)
- Incoming: 0
Total FA: 6
Draftees (Outright): 0


Total Incoming Players since Feb. 2006: 12
Total “Active-Unmoved” Players on Roster prior to Feb. 2006: 4
(Granger, Tinsley, Foster, Williams)

Net Loss: Blacks=6; Whites=1
Net Gains: Blacks=6; Whites=4

Net Roster Size: 16

So, in the grand scheme of things the racial divide seems to be fairly balanced.

MrSparko
07-23-2008, 02:13 AM
I just don't know what to say anymore.

count55
07-23-2008, 09:33 AM
I'm having flashbacks to "Dead Poet's Society" and J. Evans Pritchard.

FerengiMiller
07-23-2008, 09:53 AM
I'm having flashbacks to.....


<embed src="http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/291638/clayton_bigsby.swf" width="400" height="345" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed><br><font size = 1><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/291638/clayton_bigsby/">Clayton Bigsby</a> - <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/">The most amazing videos are a click away</a></font>

I agree with P-Man, this post is absolutely ridiculous, irrelevant, ignorant, stupid, etc. etc. etc. racist!!!

Hicks
07-23-2008, 09:58 AM
I think this has run its course. The overwhelming answer to the question was: NO.