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Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

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  • #1

    Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

    This is kind of a spin off from UB’s thread about JOB being a system coach. I am going to steal a little bit from his thread now. I hope you don’t mind UB!

    Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
    Here is a quote from JOB from yesterday's press conference that got me to thinking about this
    [i]
    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/rush_...ry_080715.html


    “Since the moment Larry decided to bring Roy on board, people started to talk about how he will fit into our system. Well, we don’t have a system. Our system is all about taking advantage of the strengths of our players. We want to run but how we run, we’ve changed depending on the strengths. We want to defend. If we have to tweak things defensively because of the strengths or the weaknesses of our players, we’ll do that. We had a weakness at the point guard spot and we had a weakness at the big spots. Certainly, we had a weakness at being able to guard the perimeter.

    The rest of his quote is rather interesting, but doesn't apply to this discussion
    Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
    Well I think there is a difference between what a coach likes to do and forcing them to play his way - no matter who his players are. When Jim coached the Celtics, they didn't run, they didn't move the ball, they didn't play a passing game type offense. Yhey did shoot the three. In Philly, Jim's team didn't shoot as many threes, nor did they play a passing game. In other words Jim tailored his offense to fit the players.

    Read the rest of the thread if you wish, most of it is good stuff.
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=40381

    This then got me thinking about what kind of style we would like to see the Pacers play, to fit the players we have.

    Whereas in the past we have had J.O. in the middle as out no. 1 option (assuming not injured) which has usually encouraged throwing the ball into the post and working of him. We certainly do not have that kind of player anymore!

    Looking at the sort of players we have now and what systems would suit them,

    PG’s

    TJ Ford having played in Toronto in an uptempo, fairly run and gun offence. Looking for the fast breaks, and if the drive isn’t on then kick it to a spot up shooter … Similarly in college under Rick Barnes at Texas he pushed the ball. Being so fast and seeing as he has always played this way, pushing the ball seems on naturally with TJ.

    Jack is a bit different. Portland didn’t push the ball nearly as much, and Jack is more strong than he fast.

    Travis likes to run and shoot, probably the only style of play he can really have much influence as, other than as a spot up shooter.


    Wings

    Danny isn’t (as far as we have seen, in my opinion) a go to wing player. He is the closest we have to, ‘lets give it to him and let him get us a basket’ but he isn’t a TMac of Kobe player who we can Iso. But his game is very versatile. He can drive to the basket has a solid outside shot. Infact, I think he would fit well into a Phil Jackson System Triangle, good basketball IQ. He’s not the quickest in the world but can play up tempo. Didn’t seem to perform so well when we threw the ball into the post regularly.

    Mike didn’t seem to perform so well in Nelly’s run and gun system, or Montgomery's penertration based offence. Maybe they were for different reason. Flourished for Pacers especially coming off screen and working with movement. Seems to enjoy motion based offence.

    Rush at college for Kansas was obviously expected at times to run, and in half court they can a rolling pick and role. Seems a good spot up shooter off a kick out, and is able to play well off motion. Want to know more go …
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=39456

    Marquis as a guy who likes penetrate should fit in with and kind of motion as he seemed to at the end of last year, not sure how big a part of the rotation he will be.
    Williams and Graham are both fairly athletic guys with outside shots, so they should suit an uptempo style


    Bigs

    Foster has very little offence in terms of his own creation as we are all aware, and his shot may have improved but it really is only if he is wide open. He does provide a very good screener and obviously rebounder, so he fits with a motion offence, and he is, contrary to many people’s beliefs, a fairly good fast break finisher!

    Nesto I must admit I don’t know much about, he seems fairly strong and has a mid range shot.

    Hibbert was used a lot in the high post, but showed he could play down low when needed. Good passer, good screener, if you want to know more go to …. http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...ad.php?t=39295

    Murphy you wouldn’t think would fit into an uptempo offence, he is relatively slow, but he shoots the ball well from range for a big and can drag defenders away from the paint. Probably most suited to a dribble penetration offence, will likely be very thankful for TJ’s signing.
    Baston is an athletic Big with a decent shot, from the Euro League enjoying playing a more team based basketball with less Isolations etc.

    Ok, I’ve typed on long enough, no way has anyone read all of that …




    What I’m asking is, what kind of offence do you think would suit the players the Pacers have now?




    As always, the above is based on my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree or tear it to shreds as you feel necessary or




    'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
    Animal Farm, by George Orwell
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

    Encourage Ford and Jack (who I think may be quicker than some realize himself, though not at TJ speed) to attack the basket as often as possible, exploit anyone leaving an outside shooter open (assuming you can't just lay it in, of course).

    Since we don't have other people who can score 1-on-1 (unless Danny shows something new; he's been working on this over the summer), I think we need to use as many screens as possible, with a healthy amount of pick/roll, pick/pop along with running Rush and any other wing off-ball through multiple screens. I'd mix and match the players involved if they can remotely do it. Such as unorthodox PnR's of the 1 setting for a wing, or a wing for a big, just to mix things up a bit. But primarily of course, it's a big picking for a wing/guard.

    Past that, I've heard Morway mention using a motion offense, so I suspect that will still be around. I haven't studied motion yet, so I can't really comment there.

    Unless Rush and/or Hibbert prove ready ahead of schedule, they both come off the bench for me. I also believe you're better off with Troy as your bench PF than your starter, but I know Jim likes him there, so we'll see.

    I'd start Ford, Dunleavy, Granger, Foster, and Nesterovic, with my main subs as Jack, Rush, Murphy, and Hibbert. Jack can play 1-2, Rush can play 2-3, and of course Murphy is a 4 and Hibbert a 5.

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    • #3
      Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

      Because Hibbert is now the best screener (is Rasho any good) we have I hope that we use multiple sets. I doubt we run motion solely. I would like to have a flex offense with the players we have.
      http://www.coachesclipboard.net/FlexOffense.html

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      • #4
        Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

        Rasho sets some decent screens.
        Read my Pacers blog:
        8points9seconds.com

        Follow my twitter:
        @8pts9secs

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        • #5
          Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

          I'm still needing to research motion, but from what little I've seen, motion seemed like a more complex flex. Is that remotely accurate?

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          • #6
            Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

            I've always considered the flex offence as a simple version of a motion offence. It's basicly motion but in a more structured way.

            If you're refering to the sort of motion offence we were trying to play last year, then yes, that would be more complex than the flex, in that it has far more variables and possible options.
            'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
            Animal Farm, by George Orwell

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            • #7
              Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

              Originally posted by Hicks View Post
              I'm still needing to research motion, but from what little I've seen, motion seemed like a more complex flex. Is that remotely accurate?

              Not at all.

              "Flex" is a where in theory all 5 players would be involved in running a complete revolution of a planned design. This type of repeating patterned offense is often known as "continuity".

              In a motion scheme, your players read the defense and the situation in order to make the correct play. In an offense like flex or others, the players run the design regardless of how the defense plays against it.

              Both of these explanations are way too basic and involve alot more than what I just typed, but thats the basics of it.

              After the Golden State trade, Coach Carlisle implemented some flex in his basic scheme, I think because it is relatively easy and simple to run, and made the game plan offensively simpler for all the new players to run. The Pacers under Carlisle ran it more as a "quick hitter" instead of a play they would run each time down.

              There are many different ways and formations to run a "flex" style offense, and it is predominantly ran in the high school level, although there are a few colleges who run a derivitive of it. University of Tennessee, University of Maryland, and Drake University last year (there coach has moved on now) are some of the teams who run a "flex" based scheme.

              Without getting too complicated on a message board, the main principles of the "flex" are:

              1. Multiple players can begin and end up in multiple spots.
              2. You can start it in many different formations.
              3. At its core, it creates a repeating pattern of movement. Depending on where you start in the pattern, it goes in this order:

              A. Back screen on low block.
              B. Recieve a down screen and cut to elbow.
              C. Set a down screen and pop out to wing/corner.
              D. Become a "flex cutter" and cut to opposite low block to post.

              Repeat.

              Get me a marker board, and I'll draw some stuff at the next party.

              Tbird

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              • #8
                Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

                I actually do have a marker board now. If I can be reminded, I'll do that.

                Are there a couple books you might recommend to allow me to learn these things in more detail? I've stuck my nose in somethings already, but I still feel like a beginner at this point, so keep that in mind in case you had a book in mind that would currently be over my head. Thanks.

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                • #9
                  Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

                  I guess this shows the difference between an answer by a player and an answer by a Coach!

                  Although i still maintain what i said is essentially correct. I consider the Flex to be a restricted motion offence.
                  'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
                  Animal Farm, by George Orwell

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                  • #10
                    Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

                    The one thing that drove me crazy last year was our fast break jump shooting strategy. That can work sometimes, but most of the time you are much better off taking it to the basket and creating contact. I am all for running fast breaks as often as possible, I just want to see the pacers get to the line more and capitalize on fast break oppurtunities instead of pulling up for a 3pt or mid range jumper on the fast break.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

                      Originally posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
                      The one thing that drove me crazy last year was our fast break jump shooting strategy.


                      The Pacers were never, or almost never, faster than their opponent last year, so they rarely had an advantage from one end of the floor to the other. That all changes with TJ Ford. So we just might do a lot more of what Burtrem Redneck asks for.

                      I want the Pacers to get better at creating and taking open shots, and high percentage shots. I love jump shots, but they need to be taken by an open man.
                      And I won't be here to see the day
                      It all dries up and blows away
                      I'd hang around just to see
                      But they never had much use for me
                      In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Pacers Offensive 'system' Next Season

                        Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                        I actually do have a marker board now. If I can be reminded, I'll do that.

                        Are there a couple books you might recommend to allow me to learn these things in more detail? I've stuck my nose in somethings already, but I still feel like a beginner at this point, so keep that in mind in case you had a book in mind that would currently be over my head. Thanks.
                        HoopTactics.com has excellent basic resources on a plethora of offenses. It's helpful, to a degree. They have the basic continuity of the Flex offense here. They have it in the "motion" section, I'm guessing because like most motion offenses (and there are several different varieties of motion offense, including 3-out/2-in, 4-out/1-in, open post, Reverse Action, Wahlberg Motion aka AASAA aka Dribble Drive Motion, and Kansas has a flavour known as Hi-Lo motion, etc. etc.), the positions are interchangeable in the continuity. I think that explains why they link Flex with Motion on that website.

                        I think the Flex offense could be a good look for Indiana, the screen-for-screener action in the flex is a royal biatch to defend, and when you have bigs like Foster, Nesterovic and Murphy who can (in at least two of those cases) set reliable screens and all of them can hit a mid range jump shot consistently.

                        Ultimately, however, Indiana should continue to do what it has done: look to push the ball every possession, and have solid and consistent transition rules akin to North Carolina's: if there are two defenders or fewer back, a shot must be taken in two passes or less; if there are more than 2 defenders back, the offense must go into secondary break options. Those secondary break looks are obviously going to feature your wing players and shooters most.

                        As for reading on specific offenses, that's long and involved. Every meaningful offense could easily take 250 pages or so of detailed treatment, but for a general overview of a lot of things, I'd recommend Dean Smith's Multiple Offense and Defense (should be available on amazon.com). That's fairly low-key and general, and provides a lot of broad knowledge. He covers only UNC-specific things (Shuffle, Passing Game, 1-4, T-Game, 4 corners, a little zone offense and full-court offense), but it's generally helpful.

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