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denyfizle
07-18-2008, 04:49 AM
I would've been happy to have him (Bayless) and Ike together with the Toronto deal.... whatever Larry.

http://www.nba.com/summerleagues/bayless_feature_080717.html


LAS VEGAS, July 17, 2008 -- There are a plethora of numbers that jump off the page when you look at Portland rookie guard Jerryd Bayless' stat page through his first three games at the Las Vegas Summer League.

First you see his 27.7 points per game average. That’s damn near 30 a game from a kid who doesn’t even turn 20-years old for another month.

Next your eyes will fix upon his 5.3 boards per game (you’re trained to read points-rebounds-assists in that order, anyway) and you’ll think, “Not too bad for a 6-3 guy.”

With a little bit of digging you’ll get to the money stat … The one that’s truly special … The one that makes you believe the player could be truly special: Bayless is 44-for-55 (.800) from the free throw line in three games.

To put that in perspective, he’s averaging more points just from the foul line – 14.7 – than last year’s No. 8 pick, Brandan Wright, is averaging overall – 14.3.

But no matter how productive those numbers might seem, there are only two numbers that concerns the Portland coaching staff when it comes to this year’s No. 11 pick who the Blazers acquired from Indiana on a draft night trade:

One and two.

As in, is Bayless a point guard (one) or a shooting guard (two)?

Portland assistant coach Monty Williams, who has the reins of the Blazers summer league outfit while Nate McMillan watches from the stands, said after Portland’s 88-78 loss to the Timberwolves that he plans on moving Bayless to the point next game in place of Petteri Koponen.

“We got to look at Jerryd at the point guard,” Williams said. “We want to see if he can run the team. A lot of times he gets the ball and he just kind of runs off on his own. Hopefully he can run the squad and get us in our stuff and hopefully we can be a little more efficient in what we do.”

Bayless says that he’s not worried about making the transition from shooting guard to facilitator, pointing out that he has already played point in spots already through the Blazers’ first three game.

“It’s not really going to be a big adjustment, I know I can play one,” Bayless said.

The University of Arizona product added that his mentality while playing the point isn’t any different than when he’s the primary scoring guard: “Just attack.”

While Bayless insists playing the point won’t be a problem, if we keep playing the numbers game, you find a different story.

His averages in the traditional statistical point guard measures – assists and turnovers – are just as bad as his scoring feats are good.

Bayless is dishing out 1.3 assists per game in Las Vegas against 4.67 turnovers per game. For a starting point guard, you usually seek an assist-to-turnover ratio of 3-to-1, Bayless is hovering closer to 1-to-3.

He only had two assists on Thursday (although one of them came on a full-court outlet pass that found J.R. Pinnock for a dunk and had to make Kevin Love proud), while he racked up six turnovers.

So far in Vegas, Bayless has used the stronger aspects of his game – namely his first step, dribbling ability and quickness – to get to the hoop and call his own number.

Now he’ll need to use those skills to set his teammates up.

It will be a good challenge for Bayless to integrate his game with the likes of Koponen and Nicolas Batum now, because he’ll certainly have to do so once training camp starts in the fall.

“Whatever the coach wants me to do, I’ll do,” Bayless said. “I’ve stressed that since I got to Portland.

“I just want to be a part of it. I don’t want to be the man, I don’t want to be nothing else like that. They already have Brandon Roy – he’s the All-Star. They already have Greg Oden – he’s the No. 1 pick. They already have LaMarcus Aldridge who’s probably going to be a future All-Star. I just want to be a part that comes in and helps them win some more games.”

The personal success he’s had to start the summer league doesn’t surprise Bayless. He said on Thursday he’s been playing with a chip on his shoulder ever since he fell to No. 11 in the Draft after being projected as high of a pick as No. 3 at one point.

So, forget the numbers that have Bayless’ name being tossed around as the potential MVP of Vegas, the only thing on his mind right now is his team’s sub par 1-2 record.

“I don’t really care about that [MVP talk],” Bayless said. “We’ve lost the last two games. I think every good thing comes with winning and we have to figure out a way to start winning some games.”

King Tuts Tomb
07-18-2008, 05:47 AM
My only response is: Marco Belinelli.

Dominating the summer league is nothing like dominating the real league. To paraphrase Andre Miller from his SLAM interview, not everyone can be LeBron and score thirty a game. You need people who understand the game and how they fit into it. Brandon Rush does.

Will Bayless get to the line twenty times a game against NBA caliber defense? I doubt it.

Will Brandon Rush make hustle plays, play ferocious defense and hit open threes in the NBA? I think so.

EDIT: And let's not forget last year's summer league MVP, Nate Robinson, a guy who couldn't start on one of the three worst teams in the league.

t1hs0n
07-18-2008, 07:19 AM
“I don’t really care about that [MVP talk],” Bayless said. “We’ve lost the last two games. I think every good thing comes with winning and we have to figure out a way to start winning some games.”


I think you might hear this from our good old friend Jerryd for many years to come.

So, he can score in bunches. But, does that lead to a winning team?

holmes
07-18-2008, 07:43 AM
Sure but 4 assists and 14 turnovers in 3 games doesn't look like a points type of stats and we needed help there.:eek:

Speed
07-18-2008, 07:47 AM
Summer league is the only slightly better than Rucker to me. Maybe he can be a really nice scorer off the bench and I think he really fits with Portland, but he's not what the Pacers needed right now.

We'll see, Me and B Rush only have four less summer league assists, so far.

holmes
07-18-2008, 08:00 AM
Summer league is the only slightly better than Rucker to me. Maybe he can be a really nice scorer off the bench and I think he really fits with Portland, but he's not what the Pacers needed right now.

We'll see, Me and B Rush only have four less summer league assists, so far.
Yea but the two of you don't have 14 turnovers put together much less each. :laugh:

Phildog
07-18-2008, 08:33 AM
Great job. I'll be he averages a lot of points in pick-up games too. Let's get into the season and if he's still doing this, then I'll say we might've given up something good. Until then it's all speculation.

Anthem
07-18-2008, 08:57 AM
Dominating the summer league is nothing like dominating the real league. To paraphrase Andre Miller from his SLAM interview, not everyone can be LeBron and score thirty a game. You need people who understand the game and how they fit into it. Brandon Rush does.
Look, I like Rush and I'm glad he's on our team. I understand wanting to win now and not waiting for Bayless to develop.

But however little Bayless has done in the NBA, Brandon Rush has done less.

Gyron
07-18-2008, 09:07 AM
It's Summer league people. Have any of you watched a summer league game?

Most of them look like pick up games at the Y. And I wouldn't doubt 90% of the players playing in the summer league will be back at the Y playing pick up games again in just a few weeks again.

Lets wait until he has a season in the NBA before claiming Bayless...or Rush as the next coming of Micheal Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, or the god of your chosing.

Hicks
07-18-2008, 09:11 AM
But however little Bayless has done in the NBA, Brandon Rush has done less.

I hope you're trying to be funny.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 09:12 AM
He apparently calls his own number...all the time. The guy has to show he can make other people better or he's going to lead his team just like Arenas, Marbury and Iverson...to absolutely nowhere. He has enough talent to the point none of us will know for at least a couple years...how it will turn out at least for him.

Major Cold
07-18-2008, 09:20 AM
Francis?

MagicRat
07-18-2008, 09:27 AM
Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

jeffg-body
07-18-2008, 09:38 AM
I still like the trade. Getting Jack was worth it to me.

Tom White
07-18-2008, 09:41 AM
Maybe this should be merged into the "Letting Go" or "Let It Go" or whatever the name of that thread was.

Oneal07
07-18-2008, 09:47 AM
If we kept Bayless, I wouldn't want him running our point. . I've seen those games, he doesn't even pass

Speed
07-18-2008, 09:58 AM
Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

Lighten up, Francis.

Anthem
07-18-2008, 10:12 AM
I hope you're trying to be funny.
:confused: What's funny about that statement?

The point is that it's not fair to knock Bayless for scoring well in summer league when Rush hasn't even done that.

Arcadian
07-18-2008, 10:15 AM
You guys sound as defensive as Kstat on Joe picking Darko instead of Anthony.

If we had kept Bayless a I-find-this-refreshing thread would have been started about the kid.


“I just want to be a part of it. I don’t want to be the man, I don’t want to be nothing else like that. They already have Brandon Roy – he’s the All-Star. They already have Greg Oden – he’s the No. 1 pick. They already have LaMarcus Aldridge who’s probably going to be a future All-Star. I just want to be a part that comes in and helps them win some more games.”

I like Rush and Jack but we don't have to go out of our ways to take shots at Bayless to justify the trade.

MagicRat
07-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Lighten up, Francis.

You just made the list.

Mourning
07-18-2008, 10:26 AM
You guys sound as defensive as Kstat on Joe picking Darko instead of Anthony.

If we had kept Bayless a I-find-this-refreshing thread would have been started about the kid.



I like Rush and Jack but we don't have to go out of our ways to take shots at Bayless to justify the trade.

:ding:


And agreed with Anthem, however much you want to say something about Bayless in the NBA, so far he has done more then Rush. That's not a dig, but fact and a retort to people taking swipes at Bayless.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

ChicagoJ
07-18-2008, 10:33 AM
I think the point is, who confuses PPG in the summer league with PPG in the NBA?

Big Deal, he's scoring points against less-than-NBA caliber competition.

:sleep:

Anthem
07-18-2008, 11:01 AM
I think the point is, who confuses PPG in the summer league with PPG in the NBA?

Big Deal, he's scoring points against less-than-NBA caliber competition.

:sleep:
Fair enough.

On the other hand, if he had some weapons on his team he might be able to get a few more assists. He and Koponen are the only two guys doing anything. The next two guys on the minutes chart (Josh Davis / Nick Batum) are 1-for-14 from three and 18-49 overall.

Assist numbers might go up if other guys could hit shots.

NuffSaid
07-18-2008, 11:24 AM
Let's be real about this, people.

It's Summer League! Rookies and sophomores against...rookies and sophomores. No big deal.

While Bayless' stats do impress at first glance because they do show his potential, truth is it's highly unlikely he'll put up those types of numbers when the real test of his abilities comes - playing against tried and true NBA players.

Two other things to remember are:

1) Bayless didn't fill a need for the Pacers, not really. We've got shooters...too many if you ask me. JOB doesn't want his PG to be a Scoring Guard. He wants him to be a good setup man and distributor. Bayless, by his very numbers, just doesn't fit that bill.

2) Bird/Morray wanted to save some money and moving down in the lottery was one way to shave some cash off their bottom line. While there probably isn't that much of a difference, per the CBA (Art. VIII, "Rookie Scale (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-VIII.php)" the 11th pick gets paid more than the 13th pick. (I don't know enough about the mechanics to figure out exactly what the dollars are. I'll leave that up to the bean counters to figure that stuff out.)

So, in swapping Bayless for Brandon, the Pacers effectively filled a need in getting a versitle player who can play both SG and SF, and they saved themselves some money in doing so (not to mention getting other pieces that could also help them in the near future). Not a bad move. Just not as flashy as many had hoped.

(Sidenote: I think most Pacers fans are still looking to recoup from not getting MJ so long ago. Deep down we still want a balla and Bayless certainly would have fit the bill.)

Speed
07-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Maybe this adds some perspective.

http://www.nba.com/summerleague2007/players/summer_league_rankings_071507.html


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>1.Nate Robinson (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/nate_robinson/index.html), Knicks</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">25.0</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">2.3</td><td align="right">1.7</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.500</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 1
-->Robinson was officially awarded with the most outstanding player trophy following New York's win over the Nuggets today. In that game, he had 24 points, five rebounds and two assists. Another typical day at the office. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>2. Louis Williams (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/louis_williams/index.html), Sixers</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">25.2</td><td align="right">5.4</td><td align="right">5.0</td><td align="right">1.6</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.485</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 2
-->Once he reduces his turnovers, Williams is guaranteed to see a spike in his minutes during the regular season. He is a combo guard that is capable of filling many needs. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>3. Aaron Brooks (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/aaron_brooks/index.html), Rockets</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">16.3</td><td align="right">2.3</td><td align="right">4.7</td><td align="right">0.7</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.567</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 3
-->He was the No. 1 and No. 2 options for the Rockets the entire summer league and played with the poise of a veteran, not a rookie. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>4. Rodney Stuckey (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rodney_stuckey/index.html), Pistons</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">19.3</td><td align="right">4.0</td><td align="right">2.7</td><td align="right">1.7</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.487</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 6
-->Remember back in the day when the Pistons use to rock three guards - Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars and Vinnie Johnson? Stuckey, Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups will be the 2007 version of that. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>5. Marco Belinelli (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/marco_belinelli/index.html), Warriors</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">23.0</td><td align="right">5.5</td><td align="right">1.0</td><td align="right">0.5</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">.636</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 4
-->His summer league debut, where he scored 37 points, was his signature moment. Although he never came close to matching that performance in his other three games, he gave Warriors fans many a reason to be happy with his selection. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>6. Jose Barea (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jose_barea/index.html), Mavericks</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">19.0</td><td align="right">6.3</td><td align="right">1.0</td><td align="right">0.3</td><td align="right">1.3</td><td align="right">.553</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 5
-->This tournament was dominated by guards. Barea, who like Robinson guided his team to an undefeated record, definitely saw his stock rise. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>7.Craig Smith (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/craig_smith/index.html), Wolves</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">21.0</td><td align="right">6.0</td><td align="right">2.5</td><td align="right">0.5</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.467</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 7
-->Smith was a monster all week in the paint. His development, along with the addition of Corey Brewer, could be the kind of help Kevin Garnett needs. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>8. Al Thornton (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/al_thornton/index.html), Clippers</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">21.0</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">3.0</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.536</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 8
-->With the exception of Aaron Brooks, Thornton was probably the best all-around rookie at summer league. The Clippers were fortunate to get him where they did in the draft. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>9.Rudy Gay (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rudy_gay/index.html), Grizzlies</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">16.0</td><td align="right">8.5</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">0.0</td><td align="right">.370</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 10
-->He teamed with Kyle Lowry and Mike Conley to make the Grizzlies the most entertaining team of the summer league. Everybody knows he can score points. Now Memphis needs him to do the other things on the stat sheet that are necessary for them to win games. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=420 bgColor=#434343><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#434343><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=418 bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR bgColor=#434343><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-FAMILY: verdana" colSpan=2>10. Javaris Crittenton (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/javaris_crittenton/index.html), Lakers</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=2></TD><TD><!--<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr bgcolor="#7FA1D1" style="font-size:10;font-family:verdana;color:#ffffff"><td align="right">PPG</td><td align="right">RPG</td><td align="right">APG</td><td align="right">SPG</td><td align="right">BPG</td><td align="right">FG%</td></tr><tr valign="top" style="color:#000000;font-family:arial;font-size:11px;"><td align="right">20.5</td><td align="right">3.0</td><td align="right">3.5</td><td align="right">1.5</td><td align="right">0.5</td><td align="right">.429</td></tr></table>--></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial" vAlign=top><!--Last Week's Rank - 13
-->It is way too early to hand him the Lakers' starting point guard position. Phil Jackson probably won't do that until training </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

MagicRat
07-18-2008, 11:28 AM
2) Bird/Morray wanted to save some money and moving down in the lottery was one way to shave some cash off their bottom line. While there probably isn't that much of a difference, per the CBA (Art. VIII, "Rookie Scale (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-VIII.php)" the 11th pick gets paid more than the 13th pick. (I don't know enough about the mechanics to figure out exactly what the dollars are. I'll leave that up to the bean counters to figure that stuff out.)

So, in swapping Bayless for Brandon, the Pacers effectively filled a need in getting a versitle player who can play both SG and SF, and they saved themselves some money in doing so (not to mention getting other pieces that could also help them in the near future). Not a bad move. Just not as flashy as many had hoped.

I'll let Larry explain it.....

Q. Larry, can you talk about the trade to acquire Brandon? Was there any thought of getting him at eleven? It seems like a lot happened between the eleventh and thirteenth picks.
Bird:

“Yeah, we would’ve taken him at eleven. We didn’t want to pay him that couple hundred thousand dollars so we moved back to thirteen. Our thought process all along was to take Brandon Rush in the draft. I didn’t talk to Brandon’s representatives because there are always people trying to move up if they can to take your player but I did tell Roy’s representatives that we will take him at seventeen if he’s there, a few days before the draft. Going into the draft, we knew basically who we wanted. We targeted people. It just so happened in the course of conversations that Portland was interested in moving up to eleven. We knew that Sacramento wasn’t going to take our guy so we moved back and got Jarryd (Bayless) and made a trade with Ike (Diogu) (to) get Jarred (Jack) and (Josh) McRoberts and save a couple bucks.”


O’Brien: “Your time will come Brandon. We’ll remember this conversation in about four years.”



http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/rush_hibbert_introductory_080715.html

NuffSaid
07-18-2008, 11:35 AM
:ding:


And agreed with Anthem, however much you want to say something about Bayless in the NBA, so far he has done more then Rush. That's not a dig, but fact and a retort to people taking swipes at Bayless.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:
I don't think that's a fair statement considering that by league rules, Brandon couldn't participate in Summer League play due to the pending trade. So, of course Bayless has done more in the NBA than Brandon. That's by default, not due to any fault of his own or because Brandon lacks skill. You guys make it seem as if Brandon got out-played by Bayless and that's just not fair nor accurate.

Gyron
07-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Bayless hasn't done anything in the NBA yet. Summer league isn't the NBA. Not even close.

CableKC
07-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Unfortunately, due to the timing of the trade and when the Pacers had their Summer League...there is no way for us to know how Brandon would have done on the Basketball court.

For now, I don't regret making the trade....one day, Bayless may help lead the Blazers to a Championship....but that's fine....given the situation that we are in....I have always been a proponent of not gambling on potential rather then going with making a move ( shoring up our depth at PG while getting a solid perimeter defender ) that would make more sense for us now.

Even if Bayless does turn into the next Wade...then so be it.......we rolled the dice and gambled...if we come up short....we come up short. I'm not going to cry over spilled milk...I believe this was the best move that we had to make.

Keeping Bayless is a move that Donnie would have made.....trading Bayless/Ike for Jack/Brandon is a move that Bird had to make.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 11:57 AM
I love this. Earl Calloway plays halfway descent and it means something. Bayless shows dominant scoring ability, and eh, it's just summer league.

As far as his TO's, big deal, keep in mind Magic Johnson led the league in TO's several times. You have to actually be trying to do something to turn the ball over. Not all TO's are necessarily bad.

Also, Bayless is how old? 19 years old, 20 at the most. This performance is pretty promising. He hasn't even been to an NBA training camp yet.

If it would have been Brandon Rush most of the people here would have been predicting ROY.

rexnom
07-18-2008, 12:03 PM
Good for Bayless. In other news, he isn't on the Pacers and I stopped caring about this trade a long time ago. I think it's time to let it go. What happened, happened. And I'm not just talking about the brawl ;)

Bball
07-18-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm surprised any Pacer fans are pining for another sub-20yr old "potential" player after the immaturity and lack of potential fulfillment we've been subjected to these past several years. Let alone the possibility he's a SG in a PG's body.

It's not like Bayless was another Lebron James.

Yeah, sure... Bayless may turn out really good.... eventually... I'm fine with letting another team play babysitter, cross their fingers, and wait and hope for that to happen.

We played that game too many times and got burned too badly. IMHO Bayless is not the guy we could take that gamble on. Not now.

-Bball

imawhat
07-18-2008, 12:05 PM
If Bayless was on the Pacers averaging 27.7 ppg, everyone would be thrilled.

Bayless has flat out acknowledged that he's a combo guard, not a point guard, I'm not sure why everyone is knocking his assist numbers while completely ignoring his scoring and rebounding. Having said that, we'll see how he does if Portland tries him out at PG.

On top of that, has anyone bothered looking at other PG numbers from the summer league? Not really any mind-blowing assist numbers coming from anyone. That "true PG" DJ Augustin-1.3 ast/4.0 to per game.




I think he would've been a perfect fit in Indy. We sorely lacked penetration and aggressiveness, and here's a guy averaging almost 15 ppg from the line. It doesn't matter who the competition is; that shows his mentality. He's going to be just as aggressive in the pros. He's not a good defender, yet, but he's better than our backcourt starters from last year. And his #1 trait is his competitiveness.

I'm glad everyone is owning the Pacers' draft moves, but I don't think knocking our tradees is reasonable.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 12:13 PM
Bayless is not the guy we could take that gamble on.

-Bball

That's probably the main point. Also, we will have opportunities in the future to pick big time potential. The time is not now though. However, our #1 pick did led his team in scoring to the NCAA championship. I didn't see Bayless there btw...

Ramitt
07-18-2008, 12:19 PM
The whining about not keeping Bayless grows tiresome.

Mourning
07-18-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't think that's a fair statement considering that by league rules, Brandon couldn't participate in Summer League play due to the pending trade. So, of course Bayless has done more in the NBA than Brandon. That's by default, not due to any fault of his own or because Brandon lacks skill. You guys make it seem as if Brandon got out-played by Bayless and that's just not fair nor accurate.

Nope! Just returning the favour to some posters that make it out like Bayless sucks in summer league so far. Me and Anthem never said anything about Brandon, except that he has done less so far then Bayless, which is an accurate retort.

If people bash Bayless without proper motivation they should be prepared to get that game turned around and used on them to see if it is fair or not.

I'm not saying what Anthem and I wrote was without asterixes (like Rush not beying allowed to play in Summer League), but that is in this case irrelevant to the point I think we both tried to make.

And for the record though I was against the trade I DO like Rush and think Jack is ok. I hope it works out for us.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

JayRedd
07-18-2008, 12:23 PM
My whole position going into the draft was that the one thing we couldn't affrod to do was screw it up and be looking back at our two 2008 Draft picks in 2010 and having no one left that was any better than David Harrison or Fred Jones. Meaning, we couldn't draft someone that did not turn out to be an adequate rotatin guy. I would rather had have a guarantee we were getting a Jeff Foster- or James Posey-esque player who could be a 7th/8th man in any coaches rotation rather than swing for the fences on a Gerald Green/Kwame Brown or Josh Smith/Al Jefferson type boom/bust scenario. A guarentee of missing a bust going into this draft was worth more to me -- and I think our franchise -- than even a 50/50 shot at a potential All Star.

So if Jerryd turns out to be a Monta Ellis or better talent I will be really dissapointed. But I think, for our franchise, where we were two months ago with virtually no NBA-caliber assets at all, the fact that we got three potential assets in Rush, Hibbert and Jack was the correct course of action.

Still, it's going to be tough to watch if I ever have to watch Bayless in an All Star jersey representing another team. But, much like watching Hanley Ramirez tear up the NL is painful for Red Sox fans, the trade, IMO, was the right thing to do (and, yes, comparing Rush/Jack to Josh Beckett is obviously not very accurate).

Spirit
07-18-2008, 12:25 PM
Lighten up, Francis.:D:laugh::-p:jump::worship::sarcasm::bunny:

That was funny.


Anyways, I like Rush better so there is no way someone can get me (back) to being mad about the trade. I like Jack (as a backup SG more than a backup PG, but he will be forced to PG) and think he will be a good role player, and Rush will be the perfect fit/compliment to Danny, and we will have one of the best defenses at the wings for years to come with Danny/Rush.

Speed
07-18-2008, 12:26 PM
I for sure would be excited if he was doing that in a Pacers summer league, true.

I still think it was the right move for the Pacers right now.

If Bayless is Arenas and B Rush is a bust and Jarret Jack sucks, well then of course I'll be pissed.

However, the kid has done nothing yet.

Something to think about is he is doing this mainly by penetrating and giving up his body against a bunch of guys who won't be in the league next year.

I already saw where after 3 games he has heat on his back and ice on his knees. Can he attack the basket like that against the big boys for 82 games, ever.

I mean I don't know the answer and the guy could have Reggie and Iverson durability, but it's awfully rare.

He's 19 which likely means he has a long way to go before he knows what he is doing it in the big boy league. This team needed basketball players with high basketball IQ that makes guys around them better, right now. Not a maybe 4 years from now for a guy who's current skillset looks like an undersized shooting guard.

Lets say best case he's Agent zero, then oops.

Lets say medium case he is Nate Robinson, then so.

Lets say worse case, he is an offensive playground, non team style basketball, disruptive 1 on 4 player, then....

My point is, its all possible, I guess, but to over react and say how the trade was bad, since we haven't seen any of them play is easily wrong.

dewman_32
07-18-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm getting sick of reading all this incessant whining to be perfectly honest. The Pacers had no interest in Bayless. They never wanted him and they didn't "trade" him. They picked him for Portland in a deal that was consummated before the draft even took place. I don't know how much clearer it can be. All these hypothetical "what if's" and this guy's done more than that guy already crap doesn't mean squat. Neither has stepped one foot on the floor during an NBA game. Neither one had scored a single point, dropped a dime or shot a single free throw. Nearly everyone agrees that Rush is more "ready now" than Bayless is anyway, plus we got Jack in the deal and dumped Ike's contract as well. At the very least, this is a win/win for both Portland and the Pacers if Bayless turns out to as good as everyone is raving about. Bottom line is what's done is done. Suck it up and deal with it.

NuffSaid
07-18-2008, 01:22 PM
I love this. Earl Calloway plays halfway descent and it means something. Bayless shows dominant scoring ability, and eh, it's just summer league.

As far as his TO's, big deal, keep in mind Magic Johnson led the league in TO's several times. You have to actually be trying to do something to turn the ball over. Not all TO's are necessarily bad.

Also, Bayless is how old? 19 years old, 20 at the most. This performance is pretty promising. He hasn't even been to an NBA training camp yet.

If it would have been Brandon Rush most of the people here would have been predicting ROY.
Gives new meaning to the phrase, "It's all relative," don't it? :p

Shade
07-18-2008, 01:29 PM
You all know how I feel about the trade.

With that said, summer league is next to worthless when it comes to judging a player's NBA potential. You'd think people would learn this after going through this year after year after year.

Trader Joe
07-18-2008, 01:57 PM
The whining about not keeping Bayless grows tiresome.

You whining about people whining is just as annoying.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 02:00 PM
You whining about people whining is just as annoying.

Quit whining!...;<)

Aw Heck
07-18-2008, 02:02 PM
You whining about people whining is just as annoying.
You're a towel!

Kraft
07-18-2008, 02:09 PM
Jerryd Bayless never seemed to me to be a title-contending player. Now there's all sorts of times you see those guys float from year to year with big numbers and never make a playoff push.

It's like watching Antawn Jamison before he found Arenas (another similar number cruncher). Now they're just two scorers together who'll never win a title. They're just not championship guys.

The only way players like that get rings is after eight years of scoring, they decide to join another team and reshape how they play the game.

I think it's possible that Bayless, being in Portland next to some big names, might get over that quicker. I'm not sure that would've happened in Indiana.

When I see Rush and Hibbert, I don't see scoring stars. And that's OK. I do see players who can be pieces on title teams (one day in a galaxy far, far away).

duke dynamite
07-18-2008, 02:40 PM
We are still talking about this trade?

Jonathan
07-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Bayless and Rush will always be compared to each other b/c of the trade. I feel it is not worth the time b/c they play different positions & our team had so many holes to fill. We could have used Bayless for his rack takes, his ability to create his own shot, his ability to get to the line. We needed some better shooters ie Brandon Rush. We needed some better defense ie Jarret Jack 'Me" & Brandon Rush. The trade was a win/win.
Digou never would have played for JOB he does not have the Basketball IQ for his defense scheme.
Josh Mc Roberts will be a hall of famer one day. The kid was ranked as the number one player on rivals.com come ON!!!

ABADays
07-18-2008, 02:54 PM
Did you all know there was almost a perfect game thrown in spring training one year?

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-18-2008, 03:39 PM
I'm getting sick of reading all this incessant whining to be perfectly honest. The Pacers had no interest in Bayless. They never wanted him and they didn't "trade" him. They picked him for Portland in a deal that was consummated before the draft even took place. I don't know how much clearer it can be. All these hypothetical "what if's" and this guy's done more than that guy already crap doesn't mean squat. Neither has stepped one foot on the floor during an NBA game. Neither one had scored a single point, dropped a dime or shot a single free throw. Nearly everyone agrees that Rush is more "ready now" than Bayless is anyway, plus we got Jack in the deal and dumped Ike's contract as well. At the very least, this is a win/win for both Portland and the Pacers if Bayless turns out to as good as everyone is raving about. Bottom line is what's done is done. Suck it up and deal with it.

My thoughts exactly. I'm getting tired of hearing Bayless Bayless Bayless. Lets move on.

imawhat
07-18-2008, 04:51 PM
The whining about not keeping Bayless grows tiresome.


Name one person, in this thread, that has whined about not keeping him.

imawhat
07-18-2008, 04:53 PM
All these hypothetical "what if's" and this guy's done more than that guy already crap doesn't mean squat. Neither has stepped one foot on the floor during an NBA game. Neither one had scored a single point, dropped a dime or shot a single free throw.

Neither had LeBron James right after he was drafted, so what does that argument merit?

avoidingtheclowns
07-18-2008, 04:58 PM
i'm looking forward to the thread five years from now when shade finally decides to let go of this trade. i call dibs on picking a fight with goldfoot and his 12 bands.


We are still talking about this trade?

we still have people coming to terms with the detlef/mckey trade - might as well just kick back and enjoy this.

naptownmenace
07-18-2008, 05:01 PM
Fair enough.

On the other hand, if he had some weapons on his team he might be able to get a few more assists. He and Koponen are the only two guys doing anything. The next two guys on the minutes chart (Josh Davis / Nick Batum) are 1-for-14 from three and 18-49 overall.

Assist numbers might go up if other guys could hit shots.

I've watched 2 of the games Portland has played so far and Bayless has been excellent at getting to the basket at will. With that said, Koponen has been the best player on the squad IMO.

Kopenen does everything well. He has great size for a PG and I've been impressed by the way he runs the offense. He can hit the "J" and he hustles on defense. Steve Snapper Jones and Rick Kamla have raved about Koponen.

Everyone knew Bayless could score but he can't run the point and his outside shot is suspect. He's a SG plain and simple. He has a lot of talent and has the potential to end up being as good as Barbosa or at best Monta Ellis. He has the ability to be a big time scorer but on Portland's squad he'll struggle for playing time since they already have more complete players right now in Brandon Roy and Martell Webster.

Anthem
07-18-2008, 05:02 PM
So, of course Bayless has done more in the NBA than Brandon. That's by default, not due to any fault of his own or because Brandon lacks skill.
Absolutely. The point was that it's not fair to knock Bayless for his summer league performance when Rush hasn't even done that.


You guys make it seem as if Brandon got out-played by Bayless and that's just not fair nor accurate.
I don't think anyone's saying that. Heck, I'm not even saying we shouldn't have made the trade. I think JayRedd nailed it.

I'm just saying that just because we passed on the guy doesn't make him a bad player.

JayRedd
07-18-2008, 05:08 PM
Absolutely. The point was that it's not fair to knock Bayless for his summer league performance when Rush hasn't even done that.

Right. I mean, the last time Brandon Rush was on the court the only thing he could manage to do was cut down a net.

Trader Joe
07-18-2008, 05:11 PM
Right. I mean, the last time Brandon Rush was on the court the only thing he could manage to do was cut down a net.

And he even needed someone to bring him a ladder to help him...

naptownmenace
07-18-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm just saying that just because we passed on the guy doesn't make him a bad player.

I agree. I would've been happy with Bayless and Hibbert too. I just think that if we were going to draft a SG, Rush will probably be the more complete player and make the most sense because of his defense, size, and athleticism.

duke dynamite
07-18-2008, 05:31 PM
Name one person, in this thread, that has whined about not keeping him.
Shade lol

dewman_32
07-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Neither had LeBron James right after he was drafted, so what does that argument merit?

Huh? I was pointing out that all the talk of who is going to be better by the play of someone in the summer league vs who didn't play in the summer league is ridiculous. What LeBron James has to do with that is beyond me. Are you saying thet Bayless will be as good as LeBron? Does english always confuse you?

ChicagoJ
07-18-2008, 05:53 PM
we still have people coming to terms with the detlef/mckey trade - might as well just kick back and enjoy this.

The Hell with that. I'm still fighting the Chuck Person for a pile of Pooh and Spare Change trade. :mad:

denyfizle
07-18-2008, 05:54 PM
My point is, we could've gotten a Jack type player without even trading our top pick, and Brandon Rush to me is still just another Danny Granger or Shawne Williams type of player. We are abundant with players like him, and he's not really a clear-cut more promising talent. At best he will be a rotation guy. Plus! I like to see Ike in a featured role on the PF cause I felt he was really productive every time he was given a chance. Bayless' talent and potential is something that doesn't come by every draft. He can develop into a Chris Paul given some seasoning. I'm not whining, this has been my only post about the matter outside the draft day itself. For all of you who've bought into the Rush media PR job, good for you! But Bayless is a stud, not just cause he can dominate on offense, but because he could've starred here and really helped our franchise.

avoidingtheclowns
07-18-2008, 05:57 PM
Does english always confuse you?

almost as much as bizarre messageboard cheap shots.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-18-2008, 06:05 PM
I'm pretty sure NBA GM's coaches etc... throw summer league stats in the trash. Unless you're the number one pick but look like the guy they added because he went to the local college. Everything I've ever read or heard is they focus on a players poise, can they adjust offensively and defensively, do they understand how to runs plays, can they play within a team concept now that they aren't the man anymore and so forth.

In fact, read this article about Lebron James and his summer league tenure written by Marty Burns for SI.


Article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/marty_burns/news/2003/07/30/burns_lebron/)

dewman_32
07-18-2008, 06:07 PM
almost as much as bizarre messageboard cheap shots.

http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/8/6/7/f_GorillaLOLm_70e544e.jpg

Ramitt
07-18-2008, 06:13 PM
Name one person, in this thread, that has whined about not keeping him.
:rolleyes: looks at thread title.

Pacers
07-18-2008, 06:50 PM
I'm getting sick of reading all this incessant whining to be perfectly honest. The Pacers had no interest in Bayless. They never wanted him and they didn't "trade" him. They picked him for Portland in a deal that was consummated before the draft even took place. I don't know how much clearer it can be. All these hypothetical "what if's" and this guy's done more than that guy already crap doesn't mean squat. Neither has stepped one foot on the floor during an NBA game. Neither one had scored a single point, dropped a dime or shot a single free throw. Nearly everyone agrees that Rush is more "ready now" than Bayless is anyway, plus we got Jack in the deal and dumped Ike's contract as well. At the very least, this is a win/win for both Portland and the Pacers if Bayless turns out to as good as everyone is raving about. Bottom line is what's done is done. Suck it up and deal with it.

OMG This. If there was no deal on the table, the Pacers are still taking Rush. Bayless was not going to be playing in a Pacer uni no matter the situation.

Basically we traded Ike for Jack and McRoberts. Sounds fine by me.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 06:56 PM
You whining about people whining is just as annoying.

Exactly, this is a message board everyone. This is what it's for. People trading opinions.

If you don't like what's in a thread, don't respond to it. Better yet, don't read it when the title has the kids name in it.

Doddage
07-18-2008, 07:24 PM
Basically we traded Ike for Jack and McRoberts. Sounds fine by me.
Don't forget about getting this too:
http://www.youthrights.org/images/money344.jpg

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 07:24 PM
I'm surprised any Pacer fans are pining for another sub-20yr old "potential" player after the immaturity and lack of potential fulfillment we've been subjected to these past several years. Let alone the possibility he's a SG in a PG's body.

It's not like Bayless was another Lebron James.

Yeah, sure... Bayless may turn out really good.... eventually... I'm fine with letting another team play babysitter, cross their fingers, and wait and hope for that to happen.

We played that game too many times and got burned too badly. IMHO Bayless is not the guy we could take that gamble on. Not now.

-Bball

Right, cause Jamal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, David Harrison, and Ron Artest were all 20 year olds when they were creating havoc in the locker room! I forgot.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 07:32 PM
OMG This. If there was no deal on the table, the Pacers are still taking Rush. Bayless was not going to be playing in a Pacer uni no matter the situation.

Basically we traded Ike for Jack and McRoberts. Sounds fine by me.

Say what you want, we drafted Bayless, therefor he was involved in the trade.

BTW, How much have the people on this board actually watched Jarrett Jack? I am still wondering who this great talent is I keep reading about. I mean he must be great if Portland wanted to get rid of him. There biggest need was PG, and he is a young PG himself. So he must be unbelieveable if a team that needed a PG didn't think they needed him.

Players like Jarrett Jack are a dime a dozen. We could've signed one for the vet minimum and not had to give up anyone. He is no great coup people. His game is swiss cheese, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Diener beats him out.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 07:43 PM
Say what you want, we drafted Bayless, therefor he was involved in the trade.

BTW, How much have the people on this board actually watched Jarrett Jack? I am still wondering who this great talent is I keep reading about. I mean he must be great if Portland wanted to get rid of him. There biggest need was PG, and he is a young PG himself. So he must be unbelieveable if a team that needed a PG didn't think they needed him.

Players like Jarrett Jack are a dime a dozen. We could've signed one for the vet minimum and not had to give up anyone. He is no great coup people. His game is swiss cheese, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Diener beats him out.

I would be utterly shocked if Diener plays ahead of Jack. IOW, ain't happening. Jack is a very strong defender, can handle the ball pretty well and is also a good shooter...not great but better than Diener at everything except passing I suppose. There's just a significant difference in talent between them.

BTW, as for Portland dealing him, they are obviously looking at filet minon (Bayless) while we are happy to get a steakburger (Jack). Anyway, it's clearly better than spam (Diener)...and that steakburger may come in handy if our rib eye (Ford) goes down...

Bball
07-18-2008, 08:02 PM
Right, cause Jamal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, David Harrison, and Ron Artest were all 20 year olds when they were creating havoc in the locker room! I forgot.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with maturity.

I suppose in theory, yes... but in the real world I doubt you'll find many truly mature 19 year olds. Mix in a 19 year old just handed a crate of money and a whole new world.... 'friends and family' (he didn't know he had)... agents, women, and those same 'friends and family' all telling him how great he is... fans... temptations... etc...

Also, I think more times than not jumping early into the NBA skews your outlook if not stunts your growth in maturity. Wasn't Sjax a straight from HS guy? Al was. JO was. Bender was. S Williams was 1 year of college. We've been the poster child for these early entry players.

And you're right, we've had several examples of pouty and immature players who are far older than 19.

That said, the younger they are the more the chance immaturity is going to be an issue.

I'm perfectly fine with not taking the risk in this case. We've been burned too much by these 'potential' players on several fronts and to take another and see him flame out would be the death knell for this franchise in Indpls. Blame it on bad luck or bad scouting, but we've used up our allotment of fan patience for 'potential'.

Ramitt
07-18-2008, 08:07 PM
Exactly, this is a message board everyone. This is what it's for. People trading opinions.

If you don't like what's in a thread, don't respond to it. Better yet, don't read it when the title has the kids name in it.

Oh so only you and those who think one way can express an opinion, but if my opinion about the negativity about a trade and player before we even see how it is going to pan out can't be expressed? Screw that Corky.

speakout4
07-18-2008, 08:09 PM
Larry made some very conservative moves. He didn't want to take any risks and went with guys who would make the team more respectable if not necessarily much better. The rebuiding had a lot more to do with the fan base than which players would be on the court. So Rush may be a safer player than Bayless.

The bottom line was that the pacers had the worst attendance in the nba and that had to be fixed by overhauling the team with good guys. Guarenteed no more 3 AM club headlines. So if they get a ham sandwich for Tinsley that is what they are going to do.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 08:21 PM
Oh so only you and those who think one way can express an opinion, but if my opinion about the negativity about a trade and player before we even see how it is going to pan out can't be expressed? Screw that Corky.

Uh, no. I never said you couldn't express your opinion, in fact I welcome it.

Aren't you the one who would like to see the people who disagree with the Bayless trade stop whining? Isn't the simple use of the word "whining", implying we are being babies for our opinion on the matter?

It's pretty simple, the word Bayless was in the title of this thread. So if you are so sick of hearing about it, then why are you still here? And if you really don't care, don't insult people by implying they are a baby for what thier opinion is.

"Screw that Corky" WTF? LoL.

imawhat
07-18-2008, 08:23 PM
BTW, How much have the people on this board actually watched Jarrett Jack? I am still wondering who this great talent is I keep reading about. I mean he must be great if Portland wanted to get rid of him. There biggest need was PG, and he is a young PG himself. So he must be unbelieveable if a team that needed a PG didn't think they needed him.


2 main reasons why Portland got rid of Jack:

1) Portland really wanted Bayless, and we weren't going to give him w/o getting Jack.

2) Portland also wanted to make room for Rudy Fernandez, who is an early candidate for ROY.


I've seen Jack play over 100 times, and I can say that I'm extremely excited for him to be here. Personally, I think Jack was a gift to the Pacers and I've wanted him on the team since he was a rookie.

Teams make bad decisions all the time, so there's no reason to think Jack isn't a good player just because Portland traded him.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 08:24 PM
Also, I think more times than not jumping early into the NBA skews your outlook if not stunts your growth in maturity. Wasn't Sjax a straight from HS guy? Al was. JO was. Bender was. S Williams was 1 year of college. We've been the poster child for these early entry players.

And you're right, we've had several examples of pouty and immature players who are far older than 19.

That said, the younger they are the more the chance immaturity is going to be an issue.


Put another way...or maybe the same way...

Anyone familiar with our culture knows that celebs and athletes who gain money and fame at a young age struggle to mature. That's one reason the NBA changed the rules. Maybe not the sole reason, but no doubt a big one. Also, the assertion that age is not related to maturity is...well, never mind. Talk about Redickulous.

The truth is, several of our past players are poster boys for never maturing. In fact, that's precisely how Dale Davis described this team....before it imploded.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 08:25 PM
I would be utterly shocked if Diener plays ahead of Jack. IOW, ain't happening. Jack is a very strong defender, can handle the ball pretty well and is also a good shooter...not great but better than Diener at everything except passing I suppose. There's just a significant difference in talent between them.

BTW, as for Portland dealing him, they are obviously looking at filet minon (Bayless) while we are happy to get a steakburger (Jack). Anyway, it's clearly better than spam (Diener)...and that steakburger may come in handy if our rib eye (Ford) goes down...

I see your point, I really do. But filet mignon, as you put it, is far better than a steakburger. And I wouldn't trade 3 steakburgers for one single filet mignon.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 08:34 PM
I see your point, I really do. But filet mignon, as you put it, is far better than a steakburger. And I wouldn't trade 3 steakburgers for one single filet mignon.

Well, it depends on if the meat is rotten. That's the concern.

Anyway, I think Rush might be a solid glue player you have on a championship team and Bayless just might be that Iverson/Marbury type player...loaded with talent but an overpaid deadend. We shall see...

Edit: BTW, I think this makes Hibbert a side of beef...

Bball
07-18-2008, 08:35 PM
I see your point, I really do. But filet mignon, as you put it, is far better than a steakburger. And I wouldn't trade 3 steakburgers for one single filet mignon.

Let's be careful not to put the cart before the Pacer...

-Bball

Ramitt
07-18-2008, 08:36 PM
Aren't you the one who would like to see the people who disagree with the Bayless trade stop whining? Isn't the simple use of the word "whining", implying we are being babies for our opinion on the matter?
No I said it grows tiresome until we can see how they play. The rest you invented.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 08:36 PM
Anyone familiar with our culture knows that celebs and athletes who gain money and fame at a young age struggle to mature. That's one reason the NBA changed the rules. Maybe not the sole reason, but no doubt a big one. Also, the assertion that age is not related to maturity is...well, never mind. Talk about Redickulous.

The truth is, several of our past players are poster boys for never maturing. In fact, that's precisely how Dale Davis described this team....before it imploded.

My 15 year old cousin is more mature than David Harrison and Jamal Tinsley put together. It's not a ridiculous statement at all.

Maturity is something developed in childhood.

spazzxb
07-18-2008, 08:37 PM
You whining about people whining is just as annoying.

people don't make threads to attack whiners. The whiners ask for it when they start threads bashing Birds decisions with nothing to back it up. Noone is trashing bayless, just the credibility of the information (summer league) the whiners use to make their case. The truth is at this point we have no clue how everything will work out.

Ramitt
07-18-2008, 08:38 PM
My 15 year old cousin is more mature than David Harrison and Jamal Tinsley put together.
I have never met your cousin, but for some reason I believe that.

Taterhead
07-18-2008, 08:39 PM
No I said it grows tiresome until we can see how they play. The rest you invented.

You might want to read your posts in this thread again. BTW, I thought you were tired?

imawhat
07-18-2008, 08:40 PM
Huh? I was pointing out that all the talk of who is going to be better by the play of someone in the summer league vs who didn't play in the summer league is ridiculous. What LeBron James has to do with that is beyond me. Are you saying thet Bayless will be as good as LeBron? Does english always confuse you?

thet confuses me ;).


All these hypothetical "what if's" and this guy's done more than that guy already crap doesn't mean squat. Neither has stepped one foot on the floor during an NBA game. Neither one had scored a single point, dropped a dime or shot a single free throw.

What I disagree with you on is that it does mean squat. LeBron James hadn't stepped on an NBA court, and he showed, before he ever played a minute of summer league even, that he was going to be amazing.

It's very easy to compare/judge players before they play a game. Some cases are obvious to most people, like LeBron James vs. Steve Blake, some others are not as obvious to most people, like Jerryd vs. Brandon. And I would also argue that while most things that happen in Summer League are meaningless, there are very obvious traits that you can pick up about someone's game, i.e. Bayless' ability to draw fouls.

And for your hypothetical "what if's", they do matter. So I am having a little trouble understanding what you're trying to argue.

BlueNGold
07-18-2008, 08:41 PM
My 15 year old cousin is more mature than David Harrison and Jamal Tinsley put together. It's not a ridiculous statement at all.

Maturity is something developed in childhood.

I suspect your 15 year old cousin will be more mature than David for at least a few more years...maybe forever. That fact doesn't change the truth that the vast majority of the public matures, either due to life experience or otherwise, over the years. Well, not much more to say than I will agree to disagree with you, young man.

imawhat
07-18-2008, 08:44 PM
people don't make threads to attack whiners. The whiners ask for it when they start threads bashing Birds decisions with nothing to back it up. Noone is trashing bayless, just the credibility of the information (summer league) the whiners use to make their case. The truth is at this point we have no clue how everything will work out.


Just as an aside, the first page is filled with comments trashing Bayless' game.

spazzxb
07-18-2008, 08:47 PM
you are called whiners becuase we can simply tell you to stop *****ing (complaining). Can you tell me what good it does? I would direct the poster above to reread the title of the thread. I don't think they are bashing him directly,just pointing out that aside from scoring his stats are unimpressive for a point guard. In otherwords his stats are useless in determining the outcome of this trade.

King Tuts Tomb
07-18-2008, 10:19 PM
Just as an aside, the first page is filled with comments trashing Bayless' game.

I don't feel that anyone was trashing him, just saying that he probably wouldn't fill in with the Pacers as well as Rush.

I personally think Bayless is gonna be really good, a twenty point scorer at least, but for this particular Pacers team I'm glad we got a taller legitemate 2 guard than a shorter combo guard.

eldubious
07-18-2008, 10:49 PM
Unless Rush does just as well as Bayless does statistically, there will always be that "what if" factor. Talents like Bayless don't come along very often and to have a top 4 pick fall in your lap at #11 seemed like an absolute gift (ala Granger in 2005). After the Pacers passed on Marcus Williams for Shawne Williams when everyone knew they needed Marcus Williams, fans are always going to question moves that goes against popular opinion.

imawhat
07-18-2008, 11:38 PM
you are called whiners becuase we can simply tell you to stop *****ing (complaining). Can you tell me what good it does? I would direct the poster above to reread the title of the thread. I don't think they are bashing him directly,just pointing out that aside from scoring his stats are unimpressive for a point guard. In otherwords his stats are useless in determining the outcome of this trade.

Or maybe the stats being pointed out are useless as he's not a point guard. And, like I said, compare them to the rest of the summer league stats, even for players who are playing point guard. There are a couple of isolated cases, but Bayless' stats aren't much worse, if they are even worse.

For a guy averaging nearly 30 pts/6rb a game at the two guard, I think it's silly that turnovers and/or low assists are being nitpicked, and people would be thrilled if Brandon Rush got those numbers.

idioteque
07-18-2008, 11:51 PM
I think Bayless will be a very good player in the NBA. There is a small chance he will end up like DeJaun Wagner, but I really, really doubt it.

Even if he is really good statistically what will dictate the success of Bayless' career will be how good of a teammate he is. I really think Seattle passed on him and drafted Westbrook because they already saw themselves as having an All-Star first option in Durant and another great talent in Jeff Green and realized that there was still only one basketball in each game. So, instead of getting another score-first guy, they decided to get a good, solid defensive stopper and teammate in Westbrook. You can only have so many superstars and succeed. Denver has 2 #1 options in AI and Carmelo and they can't get out of the first round in the West.

Rush should be a solid starter in the NBA and a great, unselfish complementary player who doesn't have to have the ball in his hands at all times to help his team win. Bayless is known as a score first PG and has had some character concerns. He could be a great player statistically in the NBA but may never possess the ability to make everyone around him better and lead his team to a championship, which is what is the ultimate goal. Stephon Marbury has had 7 20+ppg seasons in the NBA and isn't even that old but because he is such a poor teammate, he is an albatross for the Knicks.

No one should question Bayless' talent. The guy is really, really good. The real questions around him are whether or not he can actually be a good teammate and make everyone around him better. If he can, he'll have an awesome career and everyone may regret the trade. If he isn't a good teammate however, people will be able to rave about his stats all they want but their argument will be flawed if he hasn't done anything to better a team as well as better his own stats.

TheRifleman51
07-19-2008, 01:28 AM
I would've been happy to have him (Bayless) and Ike together with the Toronto deal.... whatever Larry.

http://www.nba.com/summerleagues/bayless_feature_080717.html


LAS VEGAS, July 17, 2008 -- There are a plethora of numbers that jump off the page when you look at Portland rookie guard Jerryd Bayless' stat page through his first three games at the Las Vegas Summer League.

First you see his 27.7 points per game average. That’s damn near 30 a game from a kid who doesn’t even turn 20-years old for another month.

Next your eyes will fix upon his 5.3 boards per game (you’re trained to read points-rebounds-assists in that order, anyway) and you’ll think, “Not too bad for a 6-3 guy.”

With a little bit of digging you’ll get to the money stat … The one that’s truly special … The one that makes you believe the player could be truly special: Bayless is 44-for-55 (.800) from the free throw line in three games.

To put that in perspective, he’s averaging more points just from the foul line – 14.7 – than last year’s No. 8 pick, Brandan Wright, is averaging overall – 14.3.

But no matter how productive those numbers might seem, there are only two numbers that concerns the Portland coaching staff when it comes to this year’s No. 11 pick who the Blazers acquired from Indiana on a draft night trade:

One and two.

As in, is Bayless a point guard (one) or a shooting guard (two)?

Portland assistant coach Monty Williams, who has the reins of the Blazers summer league outfit while Nate McMillan watches from the stands, said after Portland’s 88-78 loss to the Timberwolves that he plans on moving Bayless to the point next game in place of Petteri Koponen.

“We got to look at Jerryd at the point guard,” Williams said. “We want to see if he can run the team. A lot of times he gets the ball and he just kind of runs off on his own. Hopefully he can run the squad and get us in our stuff and hopefully we can be a little more efficient in what we do.”

Bayless says that he’s not worried about making the transition from shooting guard to facilitator, pointing out that he has already played point in spots already through the Blazers’ first three game.

“It’s not really going to be a big adjustment, I know I can play one,” Bayless said.

The University of Arizona product added that his mentality while playing the point isn’t any different than when he’s the primary scoring guard: “Just attack.”

While Bayless insists playing the point won’t be a problem, if we keep playing the numbers game, you find a different story.

His averages in the traditional statistical point guard measures – assists and turnovers – are just as bad as his scoring feats are good.

Bayless is dishing out 1.3 assists per game in Las Vegas against 4.67 turnovers per game. For a starting point guard, you usually seek an assist-to-turnover ratio of 3-to-1, Bayless is hovering closer to 1-to-3.

He only had two assists on Thursday (although one of them came on a full-court outlet pass that found J.R. Pinnock for a dunk and had to make Kevin Love proud), while he racked up six turnovers.

So far in Vegas, Bayless has used the stronger aspects of his game – namely his first step, dribbling ability and quickness – to get to the hoop and call his own number.

Now he’ll need to use those skills to set his teammates up.

It will be a good challenge for Bayless to integrate his game with the likes of Koponen and Nicolas Batum now, because he’ll certainly have to do so once training camp starts in the fall.

“Whatever the coach wants me to do, I’ll do,” Bayless said. “I’ve stressed that since I got to Portland.

“I just want to be a part of it. I don’t want to be the man, I don’t want to be nothing else like that. They already have Brandon Roy – he’s the All-Star. They already have Greg Oden – he’s the No. 1 pick. They already have LaMarcus Aldridge who’s probably going to be a future All-Star. I just want to be a part that comes in and helps them win some more games.”

The personal success he’s had to start the summer league doesn’t surprise Bayless. He said on Thursday he’s been playing with a chip on his shoulder ever since he fell to No. 11 in the Draft after being projected as high of a pick as No. 3 at one point.

So, forget the numbers that have Bayless’ name being tossed around as the potential MVP of Vegas, the only thing on his mind right now is his team’s sub par 1-2 record.

“I don’t really care about that [MVP talk],” Bayless said. “We’ve lost the last two games. I think every good thing comes with winning and we have to figure out a way to start winning some games.”

I know that bayless has been killing i've benn watching on NBA network But just remember it's only summer league. He's playing the same guy s from college and NBA rejects don't get to excited.

denyfizle
07-19-2008, 04:00 AM
My thoughts exactly. I'm getting tired of hearing Bayless Bayless Bayless. Lets move on.

if you are so tired of it, then don't read it. man, when i'm tired of something, i wouldn't even bother listening to it (like my wife nagging :) ) what more respond to it. it's a damn forum lol. just cause a billion people were voicing theiy opinions about something 2 weeks ago, it doesn't mean it's connected to a situation today. if anything, ya'll are the whiners. just post something about the thread or just don't post at all LOL ya'll don't make no sense. tired about threads like this, yet you read em and respond to em. LOL

anyway, my thing is, our biggest need was the PG spot and we all know TJ Ford is an experimental solution. if that fails, we'll be stuck with a Flip Murray stop gap solution if we end up starting Jack full-time. Bayless has that capability to be as good as a Chris Paul. The kid is young yet he's got the tools to be great already. and I just didn't like that we had to give up on Ike like that as well. the guy was a beast when he was healthy and given minutes. we could always have gotten a Jack type of player without having to sacrifice our highest draft pick in years. and Brandon Rush might be better than all of us expected but at the end of the day he still plays positions we are actually stacked in. it really just doesn't make sense to me no matter how much the Pacers pay the media to make this sound like a genius master plan.

PaceBalls
07-19-2008, 05:06 AM
In the spirit of this thread I'll give it a shot.

I like Bayless, with his quickness and size he could be a poor mans Jamison Brewer someday. :p :)

D-BONE
07-19-2008, 08:47 AM
anyway, my thing is, our biggest need was the PG spot and we all know TJ Ford is an experimental solution. if that fails, we'll be stuck with a Flip Murray stop gap solution if we end up starting Jack full-time. Bayless has that capability to be as good as a Chris Paul. The kid is young yet he's got the tools to be great already. and I just didn't like that we had to give up on Ike like that as well. the guy was a beast when he was healthy and given minutes. we could always have gotten a Jack type of player without having to sacrifice our highest draft pick in years. and Brandon Rush might be better than all of us expected but at the end of the day he still plays positions we are actually stacked in. it really just doesn't make sense to me no matter how much the Pacers pay the media to make this sound like a genius master plan.

Bayless is an explosive, talented scorer. There is no question about that. However, I think his ability to become a full-time PG is far from certain. Therefore, I find the confidence with which you state he has the profile to be the next Chris Paul to be a stretch at best. It could happen, of course.

However, he does not have extensive experience at the 1. He does not appear to have the strength of traditional PG skills and whether he has the mentality and leadership of a true point is extremely debatable at this point.

CP was able to come in and play at a superior PG level beginning in his rookie season. I don't think Bayless could do that even if he were on a team that asked/needed him to do so. I also doubt even with development at this level that he will ever be as good a point as CP. It's more likely he won't end up being a full time PG during his career IMO, but rather a 2 or a combo.

Unclebuck
07-19-2008, 09:06 AM
Sorry I have read the first page of this thread- IT IS SUMMER LEAGUE

Tom White
07-19-2008, 10:06 AM
BTW, as for Portland dealing him, they are obviously looking at filet minon (Bayless) while we are happy to get a steakburger (Jack). Anyway, it's clearly better than spam (Diener)...and that steakburger may come in handy if our rib eye (Ford) goes down...

At least someone is finally getting to the meat of the topic.

aceace
07-19-2008, 10:28 AM
Like BuckUncle said.... "Its summer league."

We have/had a player on our team last year that is similar to Bayless. Murray, not a great shooter from beyond 18-20 but can score inside.

If we can make a trade and get our roster down, I hope we re-sign Flip.

MagicRat
07-19-2008, 11:34 AM
Never......let.......go.......(pt 2).........
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/neverletgo2.jpg

Major Cold
07-19-2008, 11:35 AM
I withhold a comment until the end of next season.

Major Cold
07-19-2008, 11:37 AM
Never......let.......go.......(pt 2).........
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/neverletgo2.jpg

:jester:

Anthem
07-19-2008, 12:13 PM
Never......let.......go.......(pt 2).........
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/neverletgo2.jpg
I got a new face.... didn't you get the memo?

MagicRat
07-19-2008, 02:15 PM
I got a new face.... didn't you get the memo?

Sorry, Stagga.

The only memo I got was about the new cover sheet for the TPS reports.....

Anthem
07-19-2008, 02:34 PM
I got a new face.... didn't you get the memo?
Or not. Great gravy that dude is ugly.

MillerTime
07-19-2008, 11:46 PM
Ive been thinking of this too. Bayless is playing well in the summer league, but those are college players, locals and NBA rejects. Just wait till someone like Kidd, Bullips, AI, Deron or Hinrich guard him. Im sure they will shut him down

Bayless just scored 28 points last game and 36 tonight :mad: Bird, I hope you didnt screw this one up...In 3 games, hes averaging 27.7 points...

But keep in mind, this is just summer league. Raptors signed a guy named Yogi Stewart after his summer league performance and they screwed that one up big time

croz24
07-20-2008, 12:13 AM
lol at those trying to minimize what bayless is doing in summer league in order to justify trading him for crap. bayless was the far superior player in college to rush, and bayless will make the much better pro. trading him for nothing was bird's 2nd biggest mistake to date.

Doddage
07-20-2008, 05:10 AM
Bayless is sick... he absolutely dominated the Suns summer league team last night with respectable talent like DJ Strawberry, Alando Tucker, and Robin Lopez.

To think though, in a few years, Portland's going to be awfully hard pressed to keep all the talent they have without paying some hefty luxury tax. They can enjoy things for now, though.

dewman_32
07-20-2008, 07:10 AM
lol at those trying to minimize what bayless is doing in summer league in order to justify trading him for crap. bayless was the far superior player in college to rush, and bayless will make the much better pro. trading him for nothing was bird's 2nd biggest mistake to date.
Do we have a "Most Negative Poster" award? If so, I nominate croz here. I have yet to read a single post where he has said anything positive whatsoever. And for the record croz, Bayless was never the Pacers pick. They had a deal with Portland in place before the draft. They picked Bayless for Portland so they could trade Ike and Bayless to Portland for Jack and Rush. Bird didn't make any mistake at all. He never wanted Bayless in the first place. So to call something that never happened a mistake, I guess you would have to be intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest croz or just a hater?

Hicks
07-20-2008, 09:07 AM
lol at those trying to minimize what bayless is doing in summer league in order to justify trading him for crap. bayless was the far superior player in college to rush, and bayless will make the much better pro. trading him for nothing was bird's 2nd biggest mistake to date.

Think what you want about the trade, but summer league is still crap. Travis Diener scored I believe 38 points in an SL game once. Guess we're just not using him right.....

rm1369
07-20-2008, 10:50 AM
He apparently calls his own number...all the time. The guy has to show he can make other people better or he's going to lead his team just like Arenas, Marbury and Iverson...to absolutely nowhere. He has enough talent to the point none of us will know for at least a couple years...how it will turn out at least for him.

And where exactly did Reggie lead the Pacers? As far as Iverson lead the 76ers right? I can see the Arenas and Marbury argument, but I don't see how AI enters the discussion unless you also call Reggies career a failure.

count55
07-20-2008, 12:09 PM
And where exactly did Reggie lead the Pacers? As far as Iverson lead the 76ers right? I can see the Arenas and Marbury argument, but I don't see how AI enters the discussion unless you also call Reggies career a failure.

I'd agree. Iverson had a very successful career. While I'm happy with the trade, I don't see an overwhelming reason to try to run down Jerryd Bayless. If he has a great career, good for him and to the Blazers. The only thing that matters to the Pacers at this point is what they get out of Rush and Jack. If those guys become contributors/starters for an improving/winning team, then the deal is a success for the Pacers. If they bust, then even the most spectacular failure of Jerryd Bayless won't make it a good trade.


Think what you want about the trade, but summer league is still crap. Travis Diener scored I believe 38 points in an SL game once. Guess we're just not using him right.....

It was actually 34, but here's what's tiring about the SL comparisons. Some (not all, but some) of the people who were opposed to the Bayless trade are grabbing onto anything they possibly can to discredit the trade and say, "I told you so". Everybody on this board knows that Summer League performance has no positive correlative relationship to performance in the NBA. Well, actually, you could probably say that if a guy sucks in the summer league, he doesn't really have a chance in the NBA, but it's really hard to draw any definitive conclusion about good performances. Summer League MVP's have included Nate Robinson, Travis Diener, and Skita. We were also subjected to a series of "I told you so" conversations during the summer of 2006 while Marcus Williams was tearing up the SL.

We are months, if not years away from really figuring out the right and wrong of this trade. I am suitably impressed by Bayless' ability to score and hit the boards well for a guard. It is possible that we could find ourselves longing for someone who can create his own offense, and perhaps be a go-to guy down the stretch. However, I'm excited about Brandon Rush and Jarrett Jack for the qualities they will bring to the team. If they are as advertised, they will fill some sizable holes for this team.

So, at this point, you have an NBA body of work for Bayless that, while impressive, is far from telling, and you have absolutely none from Rush with which to compare it. It is silly, and somewhat embarrassing to run down Bayless. He doesn't deserve it. However, it is equally silly to say definitively that this was an awful trade and the Summer League proves it.

idioteque
07-20-2008, 12:46 PM
And where exactly did Reggie lead the Pacers? As far as Iverson lead the 76ers right? I can see the Arenas and Marbury argument, but I don't see how AI enters the discussion unless you also call Reggies career a failure.

Reggie was never a "superstar" with the talent of AI, Arenas, or even Marbury either.

That's like saying you expect a player like Michael Redd or Ray Allen to lead a team to the title. Reggie is in that class or players, not the AI/Arenas/Kobe/LeBron category.

imawhat
07-20-2008, 01:19 PM
It was actually 34, but here's what's tiring about the SL comparisons. Some (not all, but some) of the people who were opposed to the Bayless trade are grabbing onto anything they possibly can to discredit the trade and say, "I told you so". Everybody on this board knows that Summer League performance has no positive correlative relationship to performance in the NBA. Well, actually, you could probably say that if a guy sucks in the summer league, he doesn't really have a chance in the NBA, but it's really hard to draw any definitive conclusion about good performances. Summer League MVP's have included Nate Robinson, Travis Diener, and Skita. We were also subjected to a series of "I told you so" conversations during the summer of 2006 while Marcus Williams was tearing up the SL.


While the Summer League holds no direct relation to success in the NBA, I think performances can be too easily dismissed.

Bayless is shredding the numbers of past MVPs. We're looking at guys like Diener and Robinson who were close to 20 ppg. Bayless is at 30 ppg in a 40 minute game while averaging a high number of rebounds for a 2 guard.

And regardless of the competition, it's the way he's scored that is impressive at any level. When closely guarded he's attacked the hoop. He drew 55 foul shots in three games. So, what did Phoenix do in their scouting report for yesterday's game? Backed off of him and dared him to shoot. Then he torched them for 36 (he's shooting 43% from the NBA three in summer league..another number that's impressive regardless of the competition).

I LOVE Brandon Rush, and I wanted him on the Pacers before the start of last season, but Bayless, imo, is clearly the better player (overall) while Rush is clearly the better all-around player.

Roy Munson
07-20-2008, 01:55 PM
... Rush is clearly the better all-around player.

Huh??

I must have missed the story about Rush getting picked to the USA Select team.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2008/07/bayless_earns_team_usa_invite.html

imawhat
07-20-2008, 03:10 PM
Huh??

I must have missed the story about Rush getting picked to the USA Select team.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2008/07/bayless_earns_team_usa_invite.html

Laettner was on the '92 Olympic team, the one that Shaq didn't make. So being picked to the USA Select team means nothing about who's the better player between Rush and Bayless (though Bayless is clearly better, imhmfomf)


Rush is a much better defender, passer, screener, and off-the ball player than Bayless. Bayless is 2 or 3-dimensional, but he's very good (and has potential to be great) at those dimensions. Rush is above average at every aspect of the game.

BlueNGold
07-20-2008, 03:21 PM
How much better is Brandon than Kareem? I admit I have not seen Brandon play except in a few highlights. BTW, Kareem Rush was a great college player too...so the news of Brandon being drafted did not excite me too much. They are brothers who are almost exactly the same size. Is this guy Paul Pierce or Kareem Rush?

imawhat
07-20-2008, 03:26 PM
Brandon is much closer to Paul Pierce than Kareem will ever be.

Brandon and Kareem's games could not be much different, and Brandon is MUCH more talented and solid than Kareem.

Brandon is the kind of guy that can have a great game without scoring a point. Depending upon his motivation, which has been questioned like his brothers', I think his ceiling is all-star level. I certainly think he (like Hibbert) will be much better in the NBA than he was in college.

diamonddave00
07-20-2008, 03:27 PM
The Blazers are owned by Microsoft's Paul Allen rather doubt the luxury tax payments will bother him.

The Jumpshot Still Money
07-20-2008, 03:58 PM
lol at those trying to minimize what bayless is doing in summer league in order to justify trading him for crap. bayless was the far superior player in college to rush, and bayless will make the much better pro. trading him for nothing was bird's 2nd biggest mistake to date.


yea what the hell has Bird done to warrant the benefit of the doubt?
he's a joke
a joke that's not funny
Bayless will shine next year

JayRedd
07-20-2008, 05:13 PM
How much better is Brandon than Kareem? ... Is this guy Paul Pierce or Kareem Rush?

He is pretty much half-way in between those two, and probably a little closer to the Kareem side.

IMO, Paul Pierce is a Hall of Famer. And Kareem doesn't belong in an 8-man rotation.

Brandon will likely be an adequate starter at best and a 7th/8th man at worst. I'll put his ceiling at Caron Butler-level, though that has probably less than a 5% of happening. Realistically, we should hope for a Shane Battier and be happy with Mo Pete/Raja Bell.

Naptown_Seth
07-21-2008, 02:49 AM
Sure but 4 assists and 14 turnovers in 3 games doesn't look like a points type of stats and we needed help there.:eek:
Exactly. Especially when one concern with both Bayless and DJ Augustin was their habit of pushing their own scoring at times, DJ more out of frustration however.

In summer ball you BETTER look good because looking really poor isn't a great sign. Of course Granger didn't blow it up like we expected in year 2 summer and he's panned out just fine.

Another aspect with summer ball is the TYPE OF BALL that gets played. There's a lot of slop on both ends, guys pushing to get their own touches in order to prove their way onto a team, and not a lot of chances to prove yourself as a team oriented player.



Bayless doesn't have to suck to justify the trade. Rush just needs to be ALMOST as good, close enough so that if you add on the benefit of Jack as the #2 PG you feel good/even about the swap.

Bayless goes 16/4, Rush goes 10-2-2 with 1.5 stl+blk. No problem to me. Not if Jack is giving you 20 minutes and 4-5 assists a night as well, plus better PG defense than Bayless is going to play by far.


Better yet, let's just wait till Bayless faces J Jack during the season. When Jack handles him just fine then how's the deal look, without even factoring in Rush?


Brandon will likely be an adequate starter at best and a 7th/8th man at worst. I'll put his ceiling at Caron Butler-level, though that has probably less than a 5% of happening. Realistically, we should hope for a Shane Battier and be happy with Mo Pete/Raja Bell.I agree.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-21-2008, 11:48 AM
Expecting Jack to get 4-5 assists a night off the bench might be pushing expectations. I'm just considering his past performances where that's what was expected when he was playing starter minutes.

I'm done the knocking the guys so this wasn't an attempt.... just trying to reset the expectations. I'm gonna looking for AJ's 1st season w/ the Pacers type numbers from Jack something like 6 points & 3 assists.

ChicagoJ
07-21-2008, 01:17 PM
I don't care about the numbers, I'm more concerned that Jack can't run the team any better than Anthony "call my own number because I can't really pass" Johnson.

Roy Munson
07-21-2008, 02:03 PM
I don't care about the numbers, I'm more concerned that Jack can't run the team any better than Anthony "call my own number because I can't really pass" Johnson.

Jarrett Jack will end up being the most valuable piece that the Pacers got out of the trade for Bayless. And it will go down as a lopsided blunder on the part of Larry Legend(ary bad GM).

And don't give me the rationalization that the Pacers never really had Bayless. He was available at 11, and the Pacers apparently didn't want him. THAT is a blunder.

Speed
07-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Jarrett Jack will end up being the most valuable piece that the Pacers got out of the trade for Bayless. And it will go down as a lopsided blunder on the part of Larry Legend(ary bad GM).

And don't give me the rationalization that the Pacers never really had Bayless. He was available at 11, and the Pacers apparently didn't want him. THAT is a blunder.

You sound pretty certain.

We'll see. I am pretty sure this won't be determined for probably 3 years, maybe two at the least.

Roy Munson
07-21-2008, 02:48 PM
I am pretty sure this won't be determined for probably 3 years, maybe two at the least.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/07/20/vegas.recap/

Maybe so, but I'll bet that the 19 year old will improve more over the next three years than the 23 year old. As I opined on draft night, Rush has "journeyman" written all over him. In the NBA, Rush is a JAG: Just Another Guy.

mrknowname
07-21-2008, 03:01 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/07/20/vegas.recap/

Maybe so, but I'll bet that the 19 year old will improve more over the next three years than the 23 year old. As I opined on draft night, Rush has "journeyman" written all over him. In the NBA, Rush is a JAG: Just Another Guy.

so ruch can't improve either???????

i just don't see bayless being anything other than a scorer and maybe an okay defender. he's not a pg and never will be imo. he's just an undersized sg

rush has prototypical size for a NBA shooting guard, better team player, and a proven winner compared to bayless

Speed
07-21-2008, 03:06 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/07/20/vegas.recap/

Maybe so, but I'll bet that the 19 year old will improve more over the next three years than the 23 year old. As I opined on draft night, Rush has "journeyman" written all over him. In the NBA, Rush is a JAG: Just Another Guy.

If he can stay healthy with that style of play, which it sounds like he hurt his hand against a bunch of JAGs in just 4 or 5 summer league games.

We'll see, my point is it's waaayyyyyy to early to think anything about this trade based on what we've seen and moreso, not seen, so far.

Wasn't Nate Robinson MVP of that summer league last year? He's a great comparison of what I'll guess that Bayless will be as a pro. Undersized for his position, not be part of a fluid offensive unit, but again it's too early.

If he continues to attack the basket like he did in summer league, he'll never play a full season and not have a very long career. I like the enthusiasm, but gotta question that mindset when he gets in the big boy league.

B Rush maybe JAG, too early to tell. I would guess he has a chance to be a pretty good rotation player on a good team. Those aren't JAGs in my book. Kid can shoot, has a natural position, which he should be able to defend most nights.

And you don't have to wait to see if maybe he becomes something super duper special someday maybe, if he develops.

I'll give you this Bayless will have more Rucker moments than B Rush, easily.

However, look in the background of the SportsCenter top ten and see if Roy is standing wide open in the corner and Aldridge sending up smoke signals telling him he is also open under the basket, while Bayless goes 1 on 3 for the double pump "and one". Dum duh dum, dum duh dum.

Some people want that, I'd rather someone who wants to make his teammates better and can play some tough hardnosed D.

I guess I'm JAG, kind of guy, when it comes to that.

:D

Roy Munson
07-21-2008, 03:20 PM
However, look in the background of the SportsCenter top ten and see if Roy is standing wide open in the corner and Aldridge sending up smoke signals telling him he is also open under the basket, while Bayless goes 1 on 3 for the double pump "and one". Dum duh dum, dum duh dum.


I don't expect to see much of that during the regular season. Nate McMillan won't put up with it. If Bayless plays that way for Nate he won't get his butt off the bench very often. I think Bayless is eager to learn. He sounds like it, anyway. IMO, he'll be a super-duper-star, but it might take a couple years. If Rudy Fernandez is as good as advertised the Blazers are going to have a guard trifecta as good as anyone. And they are all young. Although I'm totally waiting to be convinced about Fernandez. I remember how Sarunas Jasekivicious tore up International Ball and that didn't work out so well.

ChicagoJ
07-21-2008, 03:55 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/07/20/vegas.recap/

Maybe so, but I'll bet that the 19 year old will improve more over the next three years than the 23 year old. As I opined on draft night, Rush has "journeyman" written all over him. In the NBA, Rush is a JAG: Just Another Guy.

So did Reggie until he turned into Mr. Clutch. And Brandon already has a bit of that "clutch" personality - something Reggie didn't really display (nor need to display) until Chuck and Detlef were gone.

If you can draft a guy that is your starting SG for a decade at the #11/#13 spot, it sounds good to me. I don't know that Rush is an all-star (I never really thought of Reggie as an all-star, either. He needed an entire offense to be built around him but when that was complete, he was obviously very good in that role.)

My hunch is, this isn't the last time Bayless is traded. The Blazers will probably give up on him if they reach the conclusion that that sharing the ball is not one of his priorities. An outcome that seems likely to me.

Admittedly, I'd feel a lot better about Brandon if I felt better about Jaron and Kareem, both disappointments.

Anthem
07-21-2008, 11:18 PM
I don't care about the numbers, I'm more concerned that Jack can't run the team any better than Anthony "call my own number because I can't really pass" Johnson.
Jack? Are we looking at the same guy?

The one thing I'm NOT worried about is his ability to run the team.

edc
07-22-2008, 06:01 AM
so its summer ball and its 1 assist and 3 turnoves..... :D

denyfizle
07-22-2008, 08:09 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/07/20/vegas.recap/

Maybe so, but I'll bet that the 19 year old will improve more over the next three years than the 23 year old. As I opined on draft night, Rush has "journeyman" written all over him. In the NBA, Rush is a JAG: Just Another Guy.



I 200% agree. And let's not forget about Ike Diogu. He was productive when given the chance, and this season is the best opportunity for the guy to show why everyone said he was the "kicker" in that trade with GState a few years ago. It just doesn't make sense especially now that we are out of Pfs.

Anthem
07-22-2008, 10:34 AM
And let's not forget about Ike Diogu. He was productive when given the chance, and this season is the best opportunity for the guy to show why everyone said he was the "kicker" in that trade with GState a few years ago. It just doesn't make sense especially now that we are out of Pfs.
We're not out of PFs... we have 3 in the rotation not counting Shawne/Danny. And at least two of those are much better than Ike (who I like).

Heck, in terms of total value on the court (not just offense), Maceo might be the better player.

Trader Joe
07-22-2008, 10:38 AM
This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it not knowing it was, and they will keep on singing it because, this is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends...

MyFavMartin
07-22-2008, 11:43 AM
This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it not knowing it was, and they will keep on singing it because, this is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends...

And it will go on for years until the trade can be fully evaluated. I didn't like the trade, but it's spilt milk now. It is great having a very good backup PG in Jack and not having the argument in two years of whether to resign Ford or hand the reigns over to Bayless, while also having the (hopefully) great wing player of Brandon Rush playing alongside Danny and letting #33 concentrate on offense while #25 takes on the premier defensive assignments.

Overall, the Pacers on improving and Pride is being restored among Pacer Nation.

Landry
07-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Everyone knew Bayless could score, he did just average 20 a game as a college freshman after all. What he's done in 4 games during a scrub-filled Summer League shouldn't come as a surprise considering anyone with even remotely advanced offensive skills can dominate. What you need to look at is his overall contributions. The rebounding is good, likely inflated, but what should really grab everyone's attention is this.....

1.3 assists
3.75 turnovers
0.3-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio

That's beyond horrific. Combine that with the fact that, much like Arizona, his team is once again mediocre, and you can go right ahead and color me unimpressed.

So what we know about Bayless....

A) Good scorer
B) Horrible point guard skills
C) Questionable defense (especially considering he looks like a 2 in the NBA)
D) Questionable impact on the win/loss column

So what exactly has changed since the draft? These are the exact reasons he slipped to #11.


Here are the scoring leaders this year (http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/statistics/index.jsp)....

Jerryd Bayless (POR) 29.8
Donte Greene (HOU) 22.8
Quincy Douby (SAC) 22.3
Alando Tucker (PHX) 20.8
Anthony Randolph (GSW) 20.8


And here are the scoring leaders from last year (http://www.nba.com/summerleague2007/statistics/index.jsp)....

Marcus Banks (PHX) 42.0
Louis Williams (PHI) 25.2
Von Wafer (DEN) 24.2
Marco Belinelli (GSW) 22.8
Craig Smith (MIN) 21.8


To hell with Jerryd Bayless, let's go after Marcus Banks and make him our starting PG! We can pick up Air Wafer and Magic Douby too. We'd have a future dynasty.

MillerTime
07-23-2008, 01:56 AM
Everyone knew Bayless could score, he did just average 20 a game as a college freshman after all. What he's done in 4 games during a scrub-filled Summer League shouldn't come as a surprise considering anyone with even remotely advanced offensive skills can dominate. What you need to look at is his overall contributions. The rebounding is good, likely inflated, but what should really grab everyone's attention is this.....

1.3 assists
3.75 turnovers
0.3-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio

That's beyond horrific. Combine that with the fact that, much like Arizona, his team is once again mediocre, and you can go right ahead and color me unimpressed.

So what we know about Bayless....

A) Good scorer
B) Horrible point guard skills
C) Questionable defense (especially considering he looks like a 2 in the NBA)
D) Questionable impact on the win/loss column

So what exactly has changed since the draft? These are the exact reasons he slipped to #11.


Here are the scoring leaders this year (http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/statistics/index.jsp)....

Jerryd Bayless (POR) 29.8
Donte Greene (HOU) 22.8
Quincy Douby (SAC) 22.3
Alando Tucker (PHX) 20.8
Anthony Randolph (GSW) 20.8


And here are the scoring leaders from last year (http://www.nba.com/summerleague2007/statistics/index.jsp)....

Marcus Banks (PHX) 42.0
Louis Williams (PHI) 25.2
Von Wafer (DEN) 24.2
Marco Belinelli (GSW) 22.8
Craig Smith (MIN) 21.8


To hell with Jerryd Bayless, let's go after Marcus Banks and make him our starting PG! We can pick up Air Wafer and Magic Douby too. We'd have a future dynasty.
good post. I like your comparison with last season's summer league

Kemo
07-23-2008, 03:34 AM
I remember how Sarunas Jasekivicious tore up International Ball and that didn't work out so well.


.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"

I was and am one of the few Jasikevicius fans left i suppose ... but

Believe me Sarunas KNOWS how to run a team .. and I personally feel he never got a good chance to do so under Carlisle... and was totally mis-used.. and never given a fair shake in my opinion...

that being said...

I would absolutely love to see Sarunas play PG somewhere and get some decent backup minutes ..

denyfizle
07-23-2008, 04:31 AM
.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"

I was and am one of the few Jasikevicius fans left i suppose ... but

Believe me Sarunas KNOWS how to run a team .. and I personally feel he never got a good chance to do so under Carlisle... and was totally mis-used.. and never given a fair shake in my opinion...

that being said...

I would absolutely love to see Sarunas play PG somewhere and get some decent backup minutes ..


I'm a Runi fan too (still). You are right about him being misused but the opposing coaches caught on to his weaknesses on D and just exploited it. We were always at a disadvantage on D and on nights Runi wasn't excellent, the cons just outweighed the pros. Love Runi, but he's not for the NBA. Sorry.

lafayettepacer
07-23-2008, 08:26 AM
And don't give me the rationalization that the Pacers never really had Bayless. He was available at 11, and the Pacers apparently didn't want him. THAT is a blunder.
Dude, it's more complicated than that. Apparently, the Pacers already had a deal in place to draft a PG (Bayless, Augustn, whoever), send him to Portland, and take the Portland players in return. True, the Pacers probably didn't want Bayless--a shoot first PG--but there's more to it than just that. They also had to honor their agreement with Portland and trade whichever PG they drafted.

BlueNGold
07-23-2008, 09:04 AM
.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"

I was and am one of the few Jasikevicius fans left i suppose ... but

Believe me Sarunas KNOWS how to run a team .. and I personally feel he never got a good chance to do so under Carlisle... and was totally mis-used.. and never given a fair shake in my opinion...

that being said...

I would absolutely love to see Sarunas play PG somewhere and get some decent backup minutes ..

I was a Sarunas fan as well. :blush:

I watched him play for Lithuania where he almost single-handedly crushed the US olympic team. Anyone who saw that game and did not come away impressed by that guy is from another planet. It was one of the most amazing performances I have seen in decades. That's one reason he came here with high expectations.

But no one really knew that his game would not translate to the NBA. He had all the chances he needed. Yes, he was used as a SG. I didn't care for that either. However, he repeatedly turned the ball over. He did improve his handle somewhat over the time he spent here, but it took away some of the free flow of his game. It also took away his greatest strength: confidence. His shooting began to suffer and his entire game imploded.

The bottom line is: He never had to face pressure defense. The quickness of the NBA defenders. That drove a stake into his game...

BillS
07-23-2008, 09:07 AM
.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"

Because in the NBA, point guards have to bring the ball up court. The other perimeter players have other things to do besides dribble the ball against pressure on Runi's behalf and then get it to him to start the half-court set.

If you are going to have a "point forward" then he starts the play, he doesn't just feed it to the point guard to do it for him.

count55
07-23-2008, 09:29 AM
Dude, it's more complicated than that. Apparently, the Pacers already had a deal in place to draft a PG (Bayless, Augustn, whoever), send him to Portland, and take the Portland players in return. True, the Pacers probably didn't want Bayless--a shoot first PG--but there's more to it than just that. They also had to honor their agreement with Portland and trade whichever PG they drafted.

Regardless of whether they wanted to honor their agreement or not, I think the key here is they either (a) didn't want Bayless at all or (b) didn't want Bayless as much as they wanted the package that was being offered for the pick. I would bet good money that Bayless was exactly the guy that both the Pacers and the Blazers expected to be there at 11, and they probably knew it for several days before there was even an inkling in the media or general public.

So, either the deal is going to work out for the Pacers or not. While it's pure speculation, there does seem to be the real possibility that, had Portland not come calling with the #13 and Jarrett Jack, that we would've taken Rush anyway. In any case, this appears to me a clear decision made by Bird and company not to go with Bayless, for whatever reason.

He can and should be judged heavily on the outcome of both this trade and the Toronto trade, but at least he's making decisions and moving forward. Many have characterized this move as the "safe" move, but I disagree. Certainly, from a public opinion perspective, keeping Bayless would've been a far safer move. He was the obvious pick and the consensus BPA. Though a Bayless bust may not have been survivable, Bird certainly would've taken less heat for making that decision. In the current situation, Bird has put himself in position to take criticism from certain quarters in the event that BRush and Jack become significant contributors, even starters/core players on a good team, but Bayless becomes the stud that some on this board are projecting. Well, if his job's in jeopardy anyway, he may as well keep it or lose it based on his choices rather than the choices somebody else thinks he should make.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda is a waste of time. Whether we should've had Bayless or not doesn't really matter now, because we don't have him. Though I don't completely agree with the move, I can understand the reasoning, and I am still optimistic that Rush and Jack can help the team a great deal. I don't see a whole lot of value in sitting around hoping for the trade to fail. Bird needs to move Tinsley, extend Danny, and maybe pick up a PF. That, I'll consider a very successful summer.

JayRedd
07-23-2008, 01:09 PM
it's pure speculation, there does seem to be the real possibility that, had Portland not come calling with the #13 and Jarrett Jack, that we would've taken Rush anyway.

I don't think it is speculation actually. Didn't Larry say those exact words essentially in his first statements to the press after the trade officially went through?

count55
07-23-2008, 01:13 PM
I don't think it is speculation actually. Didn't Larry say those exact words essentially in his first statements to the press after the trade officially went through?

I don't recall his exact statements to the press, so you may be right.

As far as the counting goes, I'm in the summer doldrums.

duke dynamite
07-23-2008, 05:57 PM
.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"

I was and am one of the few Jasikevicius fans left i suppose ... but

Believe me Sarunas KNOWS how to run a team .. and I personally feel he never got a good chance to do so under Carlisle... and was totally mis-used.. and never given a fair shake in my opinion...

that being said...

I would absolutely love to see Sarunas play PG somewhere and get some decent backup minutes ..

I was in that same position, too. I was sad to see him go because I really thought that given enough time, he would actually become an awesome player. Carlisle didn't do him much justice by putting him at the 2, but I wouldn't go as far as calling Rick a "dumbass". I watched him (Saras) in the summer olympics and was very impressed.

Naptown_Seth
07-23-2008, 06:16 PM
Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"Yeah, what an idiot. Here he had a PG with the proven ability to cough his dribble up in the backcourt on any given inbounds, and if not that then the ability to pick up his dribble and end up in a trap, and he goes and moves him out of the PG spot when the team ends up unbalanced with healthy backcourt guys and few frontcourt players.

Oh Rick, when will you learn that Harrison must play 40 minutes a game so Saras can go back to PG.


Nellie didn't play Saras at SG, I'll give you that much. He did make Rick look dumb....dumb for trying to play Saras at all.



Brandon Rush - I didn't even know he was Kareem's brother when I started looking in on KS back in January. None of their players were ranked in the mock drafts so my only interest was because of the team ranking and how that could be. Finding out I could see similarities but prior to that it didn't jump out. Totally different type of game IMO.

Rush is a kid that stood out on his own. He IMPACTED GAMES, and not with the same old routine either. Each game, each trip up the floor, BR did something DIFFERENT to affect play.

Sometimes it's a shot, sometimes it's a deflection, sometimes it's a pass, sometimes it's a rebound, sometimes a screen, help defense, block out, and so on.

Boring, low highlight reel appeal. And he stayed that way all year long. He and Chalmers were two of the best team oriented players all year long and neither of them were using superior height, strength or speed to get over on NCAA chumps like a lot of flops do.


He's got McKey at SG written all over him (my impression was a Bobby Phills type). He will underwhelm to the untrained eye, but there in the background he'll keep making the right choices. The kind of choices that take away space on defense or open up space on offense or get the ball to the right guy so he can make the play.

Bayless will make highlight reels. But so did Marbury.

Per the Phills comparison maybe expect:
12 ppg
3.5 apg
3.5 rpg
1.5 stl
0.5 blk
38% from 3
1.5 TO (2+ AtoTO ratio)

Phills was a 4 year college guy and took a massive jump in playing time/output in year 3. So yes, a guy like that can improve a few years out. You can't write off that potential growth purely on age.

BTW, age = growth takes lumps when you pull out Kwame or Bender (pre-injury even). Those guys aren't necessarily clay just waiting to be molded.

Naptown_Seth
07-23-2008, 06:26 PM
Landry's post on Bayless and the summer league leaders was very strong.

Bayless and Budinger came into the NCAA season as both top 14 caliber picks. Their team was supposed to rock. And Chase fell way off the charts while the team fizzled.

Now go look at Augustin at TX. Freaking DJ and Abrams were like midgets out there and still Texas won a lot of big games.

So given that Bayless to me is a bigger, more NBA caliber PG than DJ in terms of moves, dribble, etc it made me wonder, even before the draft. I'd still love to have gotten Bayless with no Rush deal in place, but at the same time there was a little smoke around Bayless coming into the draft while Rush was climbing like a madman all year long.

croz24
07-23-2008, 07:07 PM
Landry's post on Bayless and the summer league leaders was very strong.

Bayless and Budinger came into the NCAA season as both top 14 caliber picks. Their team was supposed to rock. And Chase fell way off the charts while the team fizzled.

Now go look at Augustin at TX. Freaking DJ and Abrams were like midgets out there and still Texas won a lot of big games.

So given that Bayless to me is a bigger, more NBA caliber PG than DJ in terms of moves, dribble, etc it made me wonder, even before the draft. I'd still love to have gotten Bayless with no Rush deal in place, but at the same time there was a little smoke around Bayless coming into the draft while Rush was climbing like a madman all year long.

people really need to consider the injuries surrounding bayless and chase, as well as the o'neill saga...there was 0 stability at zona in bayless' only year there, so i can't really fault bayless for not taking his team far in the tourney.

Anthem
07-23-2008, 11:33 PM
.............And do you know why that is so ???

Because dumba$$ Carlisle tried playing Sarunas as a "shooting guard" INSTEAD of his natural position of "point guard"
Sorry, but this is simply untrue. We can dig up the old threads... Sarunas got plenty of tries at the point, he just couldn't hack it. He actually was dramatically better as a 2 than a PG. As others have stated, the kid just couldn't dribble the ball against an NBA defense. He'd cough it up in the backcourt, but also in a halfcourt setting he had difficulty taking his man off the dribble. At SG he could at least get shots up, even though he wasn't a particularly good shooter at NBA range.


I would absolutely love to see Sarunas play PG somewhere and get some decent backup minutes ..
I think he's getting plenty of backup minutes on Panathinaikos...

imawhat
07-24-2008, 12:55 AM
Sarunas played his way out of playing PG, but I truly think he played his way off the team at SG. Only near the end of his stay did they finally play him in the best way, which was a half-court PG.

Sarunas's #1 asset, despite is inability to get the ball past half court, is his playmaking. This is very hyperbolic, but what Rick did is similar to moving Steve Nash to SG. Unfortunately #3 was past his prime, but I still think we could've gotten more out of him.

MillerTime
07-24-2008, 07:05 AM
Sure but 4 assists and 14 turnovers in 3 games doesn't look like a points type of stats and we needed help there.:eek:

I wonder how many turnovers he would have when he gets an real NBA defense on him, from like the Spurs or Pistons!!

vnzla81
01-15-2009, 11:59 PM
Bayless was killing people today, did anybody see his highlights on ESPN? he had a monster dunk on somebody, I don't know you guys but I'm starting to think that the pacers made a mistake not keeping him. 25points, 3ast and 3reb in 25min.

Roy Munson
01-16-2009, 12:07 AM
Bayless was killing people today, did anybody see his highlights on ESPN? he had a monster dunk on somebody, I don't know you guys but I'm starting to think that the pacers made a mistake not keeping him. 25points, 3ast and 3reb in 25min.

23, 3, 3. This was the first game that Bayless has gotten minutes as part of the regular rotation, due to Steve Blake's injury last night. Given Bayless age and experience level, I think his future is extremely bright. There is no question that his career is going to be much more significant than that of journeyman-to-be Brandon Rush.

flox
01-16-2009, 12:10 AM
Bayless has NBA level slashing and scoring. His PG skills and defense were medicore tonight, but he was slashing like a beast. He still hasn't made a shot outside the paint though, going back to his last game against Philly, were he missed all of his shots not in the painted area. But boy can this guy get to the line.

Spirit
01-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Rush has been a huge disappointment for me. For someone who was supposed to be NBA-Ready he sure does look like a bum.

vnzla81
01-16-2009, 12:47 AM
just found this on SI.COM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/viewcast/2009/01/15/index.html?contestId=24568&vendorId=2009011517&vendorVisitTeam=22&vendorHomeTeam=17&pageType=recap


EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. (AP) - Jerryd Bayless got a chance to play with point guard Steve Blake sidelined with a separated shoulder and the Portland Trail Blazers ' rookie took advantage against the New Jersey Nets .

Bayless scored a career-high 23 points and seemingly took the life out of the Nets with a monster dunk that he converted in a late three-point play in Portland's 105-99 victory on Thursday night.

''I think tonight was kind of my night,'' said the rookie from Arizona, who had scored 53 points in his previous 18 games this season. ''I helped the team out. I found my comfort level.''

It was unexpected help. Bayless had never scored more than eight points in a game, but he also was never a part of coach Nate McMillan's rotation.

With Blake expected to be out a week to 10 days, Bayless played 25 minutes.

Bayless was 6-for-9 from the field, with most coming on tough drives down the lane. He also was perfect on 11 free throws.

''I finally let the game come to me,'' Bayless said. ''Now I can play and be free. It's just kind of a mental thing. Now I am out of the stranglehold.''

The play most people will see on the highlight film will be his two-handed dunk with 3:20 to go that put Portland ahead 95-89.

''It was crazy,'' said Brandon Roy , who led Portland with 29 points. ''That's what we have been expecting from him. He does it in practice and he finally got one down in the game. He put it on his head. He was so excited I don't think he knew he got fouled.''

Roy, who also added eight rebounds and five assists, said Bayless is going to make the Trail Blazers better.

''I have been telling him to stay patient, that the minutes would come,'' Roy said. ''He is the first guy in the gym and the last one out. It paid off tonight. Once he gets comfortable, we are going to be dangerous. He is tough going to the basket and he opens up the floor. As he gets more confidence, we're going to be really tough.''

LaMarcus Aldridge added 20 points and Travis Outlaw scored all 13 of his points

clownskull
01-16-2009, 12:52 AM
i expect rookies to be superstars from the start. all this talk of adjusting and such is just making excuses.
in all fairness though- there are plenty out there who will jump on something like this and say- see here we are almost halfway thru a season and because a rookie hasn't shown himself as good as a solid veteran- he must be a bust.
they see guys like lebron succeed immediately and think that's how it should be.
nope. most guys take a while to figure out the most difficult basketball league in the world.
and they don't get lebron's calls either.

jeffg-body
01-16-2009, 12:58 AM
It's awful difficult to call our rooks a bust when we are just half-way through their rookie season. Both Hibbert and Rush have shown flashes of good talent. I'd say wait three years and see where they are. Rush should be an important factor by then and Hibbert should be starting but still developing because you know with bigs it takes a bit longer to develop. I still like the Bayless trade because we filled several holes on our team.

MrSparko
01-16-2009, 01:09 AM
just found this on SI.COM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/viewcast/2009/01/15/index.html?contestId=24568&vendorId=2009011517&vendorVisitTeam=22&vendorHomeTeam=17&pageType=recap


EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. (AP) - Jerryd Bayless got a chance to play with point guard Steve Blake sidelined with a separated shoulder and the Portland Trail Blazers ' rookie took advantage against the New Jersey Nets .

Bayless scored a career-high 23 points and seemingly took the life out of the Nets with a monster dunk that he converted in a late three-point play in Portland's 105-99 victory on Thursday night.

''I think tonight was kind of my night,'' said the rookie from Arizona, who had scored 53 points in his previous 18 games this season. ''I helped the team out. I found my comfort level.''

It was unexpected help. Bayless had never scored more than eight points in a game, but he also was never a part of coach Nate McMillan's rotation.

With Blake expected to be out a week to 10 days, Bayless played 25 minutes.

Bayless was 6-for-9 from the field, with most coming on tough drives down the lane. He also was perfect on 11 free throws.

''I finally let the game come to me,'' Bayless said. ''Now I can play and be free. It's just kind of a mental thing. Now I am out of the stranglehold.''

The play most people will see on the highlight film will be his two-handed dunk with 3:20 to go that put Portland ahead 95-89.

''It was crazy,'' said Brandon Roy , who led Portland with 29 points. ''That's what we have been expecting from him. He does it in practice and he finally got one down in the game. He put it on his head. He was so excited I don't think he knew he got fouled.''

Roy, who also added eight rebounds and five assists, said Bayless is going to make the Trail Blazers better.

''I have been telling him to stay patient, that the minutes would come,'' Roy said. ''He is the first guy in the gym and the last one out. It paid off tonight. Once he gets comfortable, we are going to be dangerous. He is tough going to the basket and he opens up the floor. As he gets more confidence, we're going to be really tough.''

LaMarcus Aldridge added 20 points and Travis Outlaw scored all 13 of his points

Awww all by his selfy!?

Shade
01-16-2009, 02:35 AM
:banghead:

GrangerRanger
01-16-2009, 02:57 AM
23 points? Wow, that's amazing.. not.

Brandon scored 21 and he's not playing with a chip "I hate this league for not drafting me and why the hell isn't this team playing me" on his shoulder. When he's scoring 23 a night, then we can revisit this thread.

Roy Munson
01-16-2009, 03:57 AM
23 points? Wow, that's amazing.. not.

Brandon scored 21 and he's not playing with a chip "I hate this league for not drafting me and why the hell isn't this team playing me" on his shoulder. When he's scoring 23 a night, then we can revisit this thread.

Be in denial all you want. This was essentially Bayless' first full game. 25 minutes. That's far more than he's played in any game yet. I'm not suggesting that Bayless will average 23 any time soon. But I AM suggesting that, given the opportunity to play, Bayless is a MUCH better player than Rush. In a couple years when people make the Bayless-Rush comparison, it will seem ridiculous.

imawhat
01-16-2009, 04:00 AM
''I have been telling him to stay patient, that the minutes would come,'' Roy said. ''He is the first guy in the gym and the last one out. It paid off tonight.

And this is the reason I think he'll be a star. He has a will to succeed that is almost unmatched.

I love Rush, but I still think we made a huge mistake.

croz24
01-16-2009, 04:16 AM
i've obviously always been in the bayless camp and believe that trade may very well have been a franchise-altering deal (in a negative way), but it's still too early to determine what types of players the two will become.

Trader Joe
01-16-2009, 04:31 AM
A guy scores 23 points in one game and suddenly we made a horrible mistake by not keeping him? I'm not buying it. I like Bayless and I think he will be a very good player, but I think everyone is selling Rush down the river way too early. I think a lot of fans are wanting to pin what they deem a disappointing season on someone and Brandon is an easy target.

Trader Joe
01-16-2009, 04:33 AM
And this is the reason I think he'll be a star. He has a will to succeed that is almost unmatched.

I love Rush, but I still think we made a huge mistake.

Jerryd Bayless has a will to succeed that is almost unmatched? Please.

Pacers Digest, where hyperbole reigns supreme.

What do you honestly know about Jerryd's will to succeed?

imawhat
01-16-2009, 04:34 AM
A guy scores 23 points in one game and suddenly we made a horrible mistake by not keeping him? I'm not buying it. I like Bayless and I think he will be a very good player, but I think everyone is selling Rush down the river way too early. I think a lot of fans are wanting to pin what they deem a disappointing season on someone and Brandon is an easy target.

Not suddenly. I said it probably 30 seconds after I found out about the trade, and I'm sticking with that thought.

This has nothing to do with Brandon. Brandon should be a very fine player, and a very good team player. But it's my belief that you never pass up a chance at greatness for a slightly better chance of very good.

GrangerRanger
01-16-2009, 05:07 AM
That's just it. What makes a great player? A guy going to the gym everyday and shooting can be looked at in two ways. One, he's being selfish and is about himself or two he's shooting not to get minutes for himself but because he wants to help his team with the minutes he does get. One knock on Bayless is that he is probably not that great of a team guy. Something the pacers don't need.

If Rush is a average player who rides the bench like Croshere his whole career (he started too) but contributes and never complains and is a good *team* (key word here) player while Bayless is scoring 20 a night, I won't be mad. But then again, every evaluating expert in the league that I've heard so far has had this to say about Brandon. He looks better then Danny Granger in his rookie year. Look at Danny today.

Besides that, there has to be a reason this god almighty savior of basketball point guard with unmatched will to create a palace of a winning spectacle was close to tears because he was slipping.

But meh.. these threads are always rather dumb to tell you the truth. About as dumb as "Oden is Larue Martin." It's all talk. Let's sit back for a while, maybe 2 years down the road and see where these two players are and what shape the Blazer's and Pacers are in before we start calling Larry Bird an idiot for passing up on Mister Bayless?

count55
01-16-2009, 06:40 AM
Be in denial all you want. This was essentially Bayless' first full game. 25 minutes. That's far more than he's played in any game yet. I'm not suggesting that Bayless will average 23 any time soon. But I AM suggesting that, given the opportunity to play, Bayless is a MUCH better player than Rush. In a couple years when people make the Bayless-Rush comparison, it will seem ridiculous.

While it's true that Bayless may end up being a much better player than Rush, if you're going to charge someone else with denial, shouldn't you at least have your facts straight?

This was the second night in a row that Bayless played 25 minutes. Wednesday against Philly, he scored 5 points on 1 for 11 shooting with 2 rebounds, no assists, and 2 turnovers.

xtacy
01-16-2009, 06:58 AM
Rush has been a huge disappointment for me. For someone who was supposed to be NBA-Ready he sure does look like a bum.

second.

but it doesn't mean i'm impressed by bayless. one good game is not enough.

Mourning
01-16-2009, 08:53 AM
Rush has been a huge disappointment for me. For someone who was supposed to be NBA-Ready he sure does look like a bum.

There are no quarantees how a player will make the jump from college to the NBA. Regardless, and I was against trading Bayless, give Rush sometime and practice a little patience.

Furthermore, I think he had a number of good games, so saying he looks like a bum doesn't ring true at all IMO.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Eindar
01-16-2009, 09:05 AM
Let's also keep in mind that Bayless is a freakish athlete, whereas Rush is just average or slightly above average. This is an important factor when you're still trying to figure things out in the league, because you can lean on that athleticism a little more. Give it a couple years, once they've had a chance to improve on their skills, and then compare how they've developed.

2minutes twowa
01-16-2009, 09:28 AM
We also need to remember that it wasn't a straight up Rush for Bayless trade. McBob and Ike are pretty much a wash for me, so it was basically Bayless for Rush and Jack. I know Larry liked Rush, but I think he saw the addition of Jack as the reason to pull the trigger. Bayless will be a scorer, no doubt, but there are a lot of scorers that don't help the team like they should. We'll see.

Jonathan
01-16-2009, 10:55 AM
Bayless scored 23 last night. Good for him. How was his defense? Does he look to pass first or score first? I believe we drafted Rush b/c he had better make up to become a quality defender in this league.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 11:13 AM
While it's true that Bayless may end up being a much better player than Rush, if you're going to charge someone else with denial, shouldn't you at least have your facts straight?

This was the second night in a row that Bayless played 25 minutes. Wednesday against Philly, he scored 5 points on 1 for 11 shooting with 2 rebounds, no assists, and 2 turnovers.


Man you must have read my post yesterday to Spade about Bayless' 1-11 shooting!:)

Shade
01-16-2009, 11:26 AM
Man you must have read my post yesterday to Spade about Bayless' 1-11 shooting!:)

He had a rough night in his first NBA game with semi-major minutes.

In his second NBA game with major minutes, he improved dramatically.

Compare that to how the "more NBA-ready" Rush has done with significantly more playing time.

I expected both Eric Gordon and Bayless to be serious ballers in 2-3 years, but both are already starting to show some signs in year #1.

PacerGuy
01-16-2009, 11:29 AM
:eek:
Holly Crap!
Seriously?...... No, Seriously?..... Are you Serious?...... Seriously?
:smartass:

Where were these posts when B.Rush was playing 20min a game & getting 15-20 a nite while J.Bayless sat his *** on the bench & recorded DNP after DNP?
SERIOUSLY!
Bump this in 2-3 years, but untill then this is just stupid. They are ROOKIES. They will all show great promise one minute, & create questions why they were even drafted the next. So excuse me for not soiling my drawers because JB scored 23 pts (all in the paint - no outside shot) in 1 game. No one ever said he sucked, but he is not Jordan either.
Again 2-3 years, them bump this then, but for now IMO this thread should be re-titled "Sour Milk".

pacergod2
01-16-2009, 11:34 AM
This thread being bumped is asinine. I mean seriously. Both of these two have had inconsistent minutes all year. This guy is an undersized shooting guard with an upside of Jason Terry. We liked Rush because of his intelligence, defensive prowess, and shooting ability. Rush is not as explosive and that's obvious.... so you bump this thread because you see a dunk and think the guy is amazing. Give me a break. I think Bayless has a lot of upside, but then again so does Brandon. One game and the "I told you so's" are coming out.

flox
01-16-2009, 11:38 AM
Again, his first 1-11 night was a result of his outside shot not falling, just like a certain brandon rush's shot not falling. Tonight he got to the rim at will, it was quite impressive.

Rush's scoring has not nearly been as impressive. It took him over 40 minutes to rack up over 20 points, I believe while shooting around 40%. Rush does not drive.

It is fair to say that Rush is disappointing. His greatest assets are, in this order, on draft night, NBA ready talent, defense, 3pt shooting. He has not been NBA ready, his 3pt shooting is off, and his defense has been medicore.

Yes, Rush has been given minutes, but those were injury minutes since we were missing Dunleavy. Now Bayless is getting his chance now.

quick edit: Bayless's upside is actually Monta Ellis full potential, not Jason Terry.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 11:39 AM
Come on folks, Bayless finally has a game where he scores some points and some go googoo. If it wasn't for Steve Blake's injury, he'd be getting DNP-CD.

What I find funny is that over 3 years many posters have maligned Blake as a nothing yet Bayless can't get any PT until he gets hurt. He's the 3rd string PG. He can't even get ahead of Sergio Rodriguez! A half season doesn't prove which player is better between Bayless and Rush (I'm not even a Rush fan). As others have pointed out, it will take years for that decision to be made.

Something to think about, what happens if the Pacers don't re-sign Jack? How's that play into the equation of how the trade looks?

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion should be why didn't Bird draft the right players to begin with instead of those NBA READY ones he did draft or traded for.

Shade
01-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Come on folks, Bayless finally has a game where he scores some points and some go googoo. If it wasn't for Steve Blake's injury, he'd be getting DNP-CD.

What I find funny is that over 3 years many posters have maligned Blake as a nothing yet Bayless can't get any PT until he gets hurt. He's the 3rd string PG. He can't even get ahead of Sergio Rodriguez! A half season doesn't prove which player is better between Bayless and Rush (I'm not even a Rush fan). As others have pointed out, it will take years for that decision to be made.

Something to think about, what happens if the Pacers don't re-sign Jack? How's that play into the equation of how the trade looks?

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion should be why didn't Bird draft the right players to begin with instead of those NBA READY ones he did draft.

It goes from being a disaster to being an epic disaster.

And, IMO, Bayless's ceiling is more like Allen Iverson. Not saying that he'll ever be that good, but he has the potential to be.

I've been getting beat on about the trade for several weeks now, even though I said Bayless would take 2-3 years to really start to show his stuff. So if I can get the chance to stick my tongue out at those naysayers, you'd better believe I'll take it. :tongue: :-p

flox
01-16-2009, 11:44 AM
It's actually pretty funny, considering that Blake and Sergio are both pure PG's, Sergio is considered starter material by many NBA scouts, (look at the olympics), and that Jack should have never been a deal maker in the first place should be considered. His very inconsistent play and the fact that he was 3rd in the depth chart later in the season behind blake and sergio is interesting.

idioteque
01-16-2009, 11:45 AM
It's actually pretty funny, considering that Blake and Sergio are both pure PG's, Sergio is considered starter material by many NBA scouts, (look at the olympics), and that Jack should have never been a deal maker in the first place should be considered. His very inconsistent play and the fact that he was 3rd in the depth chart later in the season behind blake and sergio is interesting.

Sergio could never, ever, start for the American Olympic team and that's all that really matters.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2009, 11:51 AM
So if I can get the chance to stick my tongue out at those naysayers, you'd better believe I'll take it. :tongue: :-p

I understand, I'm just biding my time on to do the same with Speights and Lee.;)

Hicks
01-16-2009, 11:53 AM
Where were all the threads whenever Rush had a good scoring game?

Quis
01-16-2009, 11:53 AM
Bayless? Is he shooting above 25% yet? Still averaging more turnovers than assists?

I'll take him seriously when he stops sucking for more than 1 game.

Shade
01-16-2009, 11:53 AM
I understand, I'm just biding my time on to do the same with Speights and Lee.;)

My top semi-realistic wants in the draft were Gordon, Bayless, Speights, and Chalmers, so you can see how I'm feeling right now.

Of course, we probably had no realistic chance of snagging EJ, and Speights was already off the board when we drafted Hibbert (though I think we could have made a deal to move up one spot and grab him if we really wanted to). And I'm still disappointed that we didn't nab one of Portland's second rounders in the trade and take Chalmers.

duke dynamite
01-16-2009, 11:55 AM
My top semi-realistic wants in the draft were Gordon, Bayless, Speights, and Chalmers, so you can see how I'm feeling right now.
Come on, Shade. I know this thread tears at you.

Shade
01-16-2009, 11:57 AM
Come on, Shade. I know this thread tears at you.

:sad:

I just want what's best for this franchise, and I feel we took a step back on draft day.

MiaDragon
01-16-2009, 11:57 AM
Again, his first 1-11 night was a result of his outside shot not falling, just like a certain brandon rush's shot not falling. Tonight he got to the rim at will, it was quite impressive.

Rush's scoring has not nearly been as impressive. It took him over 40 minutes to rack up over 20 points, I believe while shooting around 40%. Rush does not drive.
It is fair to say that Rush is disappointing. His greatest assets are, in this order, on draft night, NBA ready talent, defense, 3pt shooting. He has not been NBA ready, his 3pt shooting is off, and his defense has been medicore.

Yes, Rush has been given minutes, but those were injury minutes since we were missing Dunleavy. Now Bayless is getting his chance now.

quick edit: Bayless's upside is actually Monta Ellis full potential, not Jason Terry.

Have you not watched him play?

flox
01-16-2009, 12:02 PM
Have you not watched him play?

I cringe every time he attempts to drive. He will rarely make it. I stand by my statement that he can't drive.


Sergio could never, ever, start for the American Olympic team and that's all that really matters.

So, if a PG isn't top 2 in the world, he's not a good PG? Why does Rubio get so much credit for staying with them then, if he can't start for the American team.

2minutes twowa
01-16-2009, 12:06 PM
It goes from being a disaster to being an epic disaster.

And, IMO, Bayless's ceiling is more like Allen Iverson. Not saying that he'll ever be that good, but he has the potential to be.

I've been getting beat on about the trade for several weeks now, even though I said Bayless would take 2-3 years to really start to show his stuff. So if I can get the chance to stick my tongue out at those naysayers, you'd better believe I'll take it. :tongue: :-p

I don't think he'll ever be an Iverson, more like a Travis Best. I think Best had a few 20+ scoring nights in his career as well:-p:D

d_c
01-16-2009, 12:56 PM
That's just it. What makes a great player? A guy going to the gym everyday and shooting can be looked at in two ways. One, he's being selfish and is about himself or two he's shooting not to get minutes for himself but because he wants to help his team with the minutes he does get.

First time in my life I've read that a professional basketball player spending a lot of time in the gym practicing could possibly be a bad thing.

pacergod2
01-16-2009, 12:57 PM
Jason Terry is a perfect player who has had an established career to compare Bayless. I only use established players in comparisons and therefore I am not using Monta Ellis' one and a half decent seasons. Jason Terry has been an All-Star in this league.

Terry is a combo guard. Not really a PG style wise, but not big enough to be a SG. They both can really score. Both are quick and have a propensity for getting to the rim. Terry is now one of the more deadly shooters in the league, since he doesn't drive as much. Terry is not good defensively. He has always been decent in getting steals because of his speed, but has always been a defensive liability. He is the sixth man in Dallas for a reason. Bayless is in the same mold defensively. Neither are big enough to be solid defensively in the NBA. It is too early for me to make a complete assessment defensively though. Terry wasn't a great decision maker when he came into the league, and neither is Bayless. The biggest difference between the two is that Terry got a lot more playing time in Atlanta in his rookie year.

I see Bayless as possibly making the All-Star game in his two or three best seasons of his career as his upside. Just like Terry.

Roy Munson
01-16-2009, 01:02 PM
I don't think he'll ever be an Iverson, more like a Travis Best. I think Best had a few 20+ scoring nights in his career as well:-p:D

Not when he was 20 years old. Bayless is just scratching the surface. At the same stage/age. Allen Iverson was still learning how to play at Georgetown. With Bayless you are looking at a future all-star.

flox
01-16-2009, 01:06 PM
Jason Terry is a perfect player who has had an established career to compare Bayless. I only use established players in comparisons and therefore I am not using Monta Ellis' one and a half decent seasons. Jason Terry has been an All-Star in this league.

Terry is a combo guard. Not really a PG style wise, but not big enough to be a SG. They both can really score. Both are quick and have a propensity for getting to the rim. Terry is now one of the more deadly shooters in the league, since he doesn't drive as much. Terry is not good defensively. He has always been decent in getting steals because of his speed, but has always been a defensive liability. He is the sixth man in Dallas for a reason. Bayless is in the same mold defensively. Neither are big enough to be solid defensively in the NBA. It is too early for me to make a complete assessment defensively though. Terry wasn't a great decision maker when he came into the league, and neither is Bayless. The biggest difference between the two is that Terry got a lot more playing time in Atlanta in his rookie year.

I see Bayless as possibly making the All-Star game in his two or three best seasons of his career as his upside. Just like Terry.
Please show me which year Terry is an all-star. Please show me where Terry can be a +5 FTA player a season. Please show me an example of his excellent driving ability.

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-16-2009, 01:10 PM
A talent like AI comes once in a lifetime. He completely changed the game for little guys.

I'm not saying Bayless can't become that, but to compare him to anybody, especially AI, after he had one good game is a little bit of a stretch for me.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2009, 01:38 PM
Again, his first 1-11 night was a result of his outside shot not falling, just like a certain brandon rush's shot not falling. Tonight he got to the rim at will, it was quite impressive.
Okay, as you say "shot not falling" is an excuse, then otherwise Rush has been fine. Bayless plays zilch for defense. The Terry comparison is great, especially a younger Terry.

Look, Bayless goes baseline for a highlight dunk when the defense made a mistake and gave him the path. That dunk was still chump change compared to the double clutch Vince-like throw down Graham pulled off last month and I'm not calling for Graham to be the next megastar.

Flip Murray can also light it up like this. Many ball dependent guards can score in bunches. So why don't guys like Flip and Graham get top dollars? Because the game is more than hot nights on the offensive end.


I have been for the trade NOT because I thought Bayless would stink. I liked Bayless fine and thought he was much more ready than Augustin. In fact this whole "Bayless is young" thing is just dumb. He was the main guy on a main program and was rated in the top 5 to start the season with another top 15 (Budinger) playing next to him.

Bayless is supposed to be MORE ready than Rush in the sense of skills. Rush is simply a more mature person and a more all-around player. This deal was always star scorer to fill 2 other holes with solid players. I know Shade wanted to keep the star, but the team already had 2 big time scorers in Danny and Dun.


What the Pacers needed was NOT a shoot first PG, they needed defensive help at both the 1 and 2, and in that area Bayless gives you 100% zilch.


Bayless is a score oriented guard with the speed/quicks/hops of youth and TONS of supportive talent to take the focus off him. With Roy, Aldridge and Oden you should be lighting it up every night.

What Mayo is doing is much tougher because everyone knows he's the focal point and that they can leave some of his teammates to double him hard.

How are you going to leave Roy or Oden to cover Bayless?



If Bayless is so great and only needed "1 game to shake off the dust and get warmed up", then WTF wouldn't the Blazers have made that game the first one of the year and then been riding out his 20 ppg the rest of this year? I guess because Portland is dumb and doesn't know what they are doing.

Keep in mind, yet again, that the Blazers, the team that likes Bayless, have preferred to have Steve Blake logging huge minutes for them rather than run JB out there. That's not just an "oh, it slipped my mind" thing or an "I've got it in for him" thing. And based on the W-L total they do seem to know what they are doing out there.

croz24
01-16-2009, 01:41 PM
Bayless? Is he shooting above 25% yet? Still averaging more turnovers than assists?

I'll take him seriously when he stops sucking for more than 1 game.

actually, it's rush who averages more turnovers than assists, not bayless. just wanted to correct that for you...

Quis
01-16-2009, 02:00 PM
actually, it's rush who averages more turnovers than assists, not bayless. just wanted to correct that for you...

I see. After last night's masterpiece he now has one more assist than turnover for the season. Bravo.

On a side note, it's funny how OKC was chastised for taking Westbrook over Bayless at #4, yet Westbrook looks like a future All-Star whereas, outside of one game, Bayless has been hot garbage. Kudos to Thunder GM Sam Presti for showing why he gets paid the big bucks and Internet Draft Experts do not.

Since86
01-16-2009, 02:05 PM
And this is the reason I think he'll be a star. He has a will to succeed that is almost unmatched.

I love Rush, but I still think we made a huge mistake.


That's one of those over the top quotes, that are completely exaggerated every time someone says it.

On days off pretty much every player comes in and does their own personal workouts. They do it at different times of the day so in order for you to be the first one there and the last one to leave, you would literally be there from open to close.

On practice days, guys that need treatment for injuries sometimes get there hours before practice actually starts, and others stay hours after to get them.

That kind of quote isn't by any means supposed to be taken literally. It's a completely generic compliment, that is said by any player/coach describing someone.

I'm sure his will to succeed is matched by over half the league.

Roy Munson
01-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I see. After last night's masterpiece he now has one more assist than turnover for the season. Bravo.

On a side note, it's funny how OKC was chastised for taking Westbrook over Bayless at #4, yet Westbrook looks like a future All-Star whereas, outside of one game, Bayless has been hot garbage. Kudos to Thunder GM Sam Presti for showing why he gets paid the big bucks and Internet Draft Experts do not.

Did you really say that?

Do you see ANY difference in playing for OKC (7-33) and for Portland (24-15)? Do you think that Westbrook would be getting off the bench EVER if he played for Portland? And do you think Bayless would have a total of 190 minutes played for the season if he was on OKC's roter?

Do you REALLY think Westbrook is better than Bayless because he's played 1230 minutes so far, compared to Bayless' 190? Really???

Westbrook is a future all-star? In what league, because it won't be the NBA.

Mourning
01-16-2009, 02:39 PM
Did you really say that?

Do you see ANY difference in playing for OKC (7-33) and for Portland (24-15)? Do you think that Westbrook would be getting off the bench EVER if he played for Portland? And do you think Bayless would have a total of 190 minutes played for the season if he was on OKC's roter?

Do you REALLY think Westbrook is better than Bayless because he's played 1230 minutes so far, compared to Bayless' 190? Really???

Westbrook is a future all-star? In what league, because it won't be the NBA.

Good one. There's no question I would prefer Westbrook and again I was for keeping Bayless.

Btw... Fred Jones worked out great for us, didn't he? ;)

Quis
01-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Did you really say that?

Do you see ANY difference in playing for OKC (7-33) and for Portland (24-15)? Do you think that Westbrook would be getting off the bench EVER if he played for Portland? And do you think Bayless would have a total of 190 minutes played for the season if he was on OKC's roter?

Do you REALLY think Westbrook is better than Bayless because he's played 1230 minutes so far, compared to Bayless' 190? Really???

Westbrook is a future all-star? In what league, because it won't be the NBA.

You'd have a much stronger argument if we were talking about Bayless not getting minutes behind Aldridge, Roy, Oden or even Outlaw. Portland has great talent everywhere.......except point guard. When you're a guard shooting 25% from the field with an assist-to-turnover ratio of nil, you're not getting many minutes anywhere, even on a team with a lousy point guard rotation like Portland.

Say it with me everybody....

Westbrook, stud. Bayless, dud.

A great little piece (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Predictions-090107) from ESPN.com's John Hollinger...


Since everyone sees this rookie of the year race as a two-man chase between Derrick Rose and O.J. Mayo, let me steal a page from Rob Neyer and present this comparison:

Player A: 37.3 min., 16.3 pts., 6.2 ast., 45.9 FG%, 13.58 PER
Player B: 36.4 min., 17.7 pts., 3.8 ast., 43.8 FG%, 14.03 PER
Player C: 33.1 min., 15.5 pts., 5.1 ast., 46.2 FG%, 16.23 PER

Player A is Rose in the month of December. Player B is Mayo in the month of December. And Player C, who has more combined points and assists per minute than either Rose or Mayo, a better shooting percentage and a higher Player Efficiency Rating? That would be Oklahoma City's Russell Westbrook in the month of December.

He's getting zero attention because he had a dreadful November and his team has won only five games. But Westbrook has been spectacular over the past month -- he shot 34.5 percent in November but 46.2 percent in December and hung 22 points, nine assists and six rebounds on the Knicks on Tuesday. Meanwhile, Rose and Mayo have cooled off from their hot starts. Westbrook also is the youngest of the three, the best defender and the only one who had to change positions upon arriving in the NBA. All of which suggests he's only scratching the surface of his potential -- as does the fact that he has a higher turnover ratio than the other two, which, in a paradoxical twist of logic, is actually a good thing for a rookie. Historically, those with high turnover rates have had much higher rates of improvement in subsequent seasons.

So 12 months from now, don't be surprised if we're calling Westbrook the top guard from this rookie class.

Since86
01-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Oh my....

Who would have though that having a high turnover rate and lowering it would be a bigger improvement than having someone with a low turnover rate and lowering it even more?

That right there ladies and gentlemen is fine, wonderful, statisic analysis that only comes from the man, the LEGEND, John Hollinger.

pacergod2
01-16-2009, 03:37 PM
Please show me which year Terry is an all-star. Please show me where Terry can be a +5 FTA player a season. Please show me an example of his excellent driving ability.

If you reread my last sentence. I said "possibly". Terry has been a borderline All-Star several years, having never actually made the team. Terry only had about 2-3 years at his peak where he came close to making the All-Star team. Also, if you look at

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html

Terry started his career getting to the line much more frequently at 4.4 FTA's and has deteriorated. No, he hasn't averaged getting to the line 5+ times a game, but neither has Bayless. Most point guards in the league don't get to the line 5 times a game. The elite players in history might average 10 per game a couple of seasons at best. Iverson 9.1 LBJ 9.3 and MJ 8.2 were the best ever and those are their career averages. I am talking about a borderline All-Star who has a propensity to get to the rim, not a top ten player EVER. CP3, Billups, and Baron are the only PG's who get to the line 5+ times and they are perennial all-stars.

nerveghost
01-16-2009, 03:52 PM
Every time I read the name of this thread, it makes me think of the Metallica song "The Thing That Should Not Be"...

Fearless Bird
Insanity!
He watches...
How good could Bayless be??
Our very dreams
Have been upset
Bird decides...Rush's stock is RISINGGG!!
Horrible!
In madness WE DWELL!

Not dead which eternal lie
All Pacer fans forever cry.

Drain us of our sanity
Face THE TRADE THAT SHOULD NOT BE!!!

(air guitar)

Actually, I'm still in the air on the trade. Its just when I hum that tune in my head it makes me laugh.

flox
01-16-2009, 04:16 PM
If you reread my last sentence. I said "possibly". Terry has been a borderline All-Star several years, having never actually made the team. Terry only had about 2-3 years at his peak where he came close to making the All-Star team. Also, if you look at

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html

Terry started his career getting to the line much more frequently at 4.4 FTA's and has deteriorated. No, he hasn't averaged getting to the line 5+ times a game, but neither has Bayless. Most point guards in the league don't get to the line 5 times a game. The elite players in history might average 10 per game a couple of seasons at best. Iverson 9.1 LBJ 9.3 and MJ 8.2 were the best ever and those are their career averages. I am talking about a borderline All-Star who has a propensity to get to the rim, not a top ten player EVER. CP3, Billups, and Baron are the only PG's who get to the line 5+ times and they are perennial all-stars.

I actually looked all that up already, but thanks for showing me that again. I find it strange that we are referring to Bayless as a PG when he is clearly an SG at the moment. I don't see him as a PG for a while, especially considering Brandon Roy is the player who brings up the ball and acts as the PG for the team most of the time. Blake fits as a 3 point shooter, and Rod is a great pg, I don't understand where the notion that he is a poor player comes from.



You'd have a much stronger argument if we were talking about Bayless not getting minutes behind Aldridge, Roy, Oden or even Outlaw. Portland has great talent everywhere.......except point guard. When you're a guard shooting 25% from the field with an assist-to-turnover ratio of nil, you're not getting many minutes anywhere, even on a team with a lousy point guard rotation like Portland.

Say it with me everybody....

Westbrook, stud. Bayless, dud.

A great little piece from ESPN.com's John Hollinger...

I'm actually surprised how people think that PG is a weakness on the team. The team is really happy to have players like Blake and Sergio running the team, they fit the system really well, and in addition Roy handles a lot of the PG duties for the team. Sergio easily could be starting for half of the teams in the league, don't sleep on him. He is extremely steady.

As for Westbrook, he is option number 3 on a team that has Jeff Green (breakout year) and Durant. Meanwhile, OJ Mayo is carrying a team up in Memphis with a player who has the body language of a player who has no more interest in the game (Gay), and Rose is carrying the Bulls. =/

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2009, 05:38 PM
:eek:
Holly Crap!
Seriously?...... No, Seriously?..... Are you Serious?...... Seriously?
:smartass:

Where were these posts when B.Rush was playing 20min a game & getting 15-20 a nite while J.Bayless sat his *** on the bench & recorded DNP after DNP?
SERIOUSLY!
Bump this in 2-3 years, but untill then this is just stupid. They are ROOKIES. They will all show great promise one minute, & create questions why they were even drafted the next. So excuse me for not soiling my drawers because JB scored 23 pts (all in the paint - no outside shot) in 1 game. No one ever said he sucked, but he is not Jordan either.
Again 2-3 years, them bump this then, but for now IMO this thread should be re-titled "Sour Milk".
Beautiful.

And frankly despite JOB not playing him much, I freaking LOVE the McBob for Ike trade, and the Jack for nothing trade.


BTW, once again way back early in this thread (and again at the most recent PD party) I compared Rush's overall game and skill set to Bobby Phills. Phills never became a superstar, but he was a very solid starter. However if you go look at his first couple of seasons he was headed nowhere fast. I think those are the kinds of early expectations you should place on him. Like Danny you look for something pretty strong around year 4, and hopefully that will be Hibbert too. That gives you an all-star, a starting SG, starting C and then hopefully by then you have solid answers at PG and PF too.

The chemistry thing is there, Bayless has the snotty nosed spoiled brat attitude about himself and his game. I thought it showed through even in Gunnin'. I'm not sure how that would have meshed in the locker room, especially if the team was losing a ton like they have been.


He may grow out of it, but could the Pacers handle it? How would he be fitting in right now? Would he think he was too good for Indianapolis? Those are probably some of the other questions that made up the decision to make that deal.

Naptown_Seth
01-16-2009, 05:47 PM
Okay, say those things are all true and that they had no need of a PG. Why make a pre-draft deal for Bayless or Augustin then?

You're sitting on Roy and have 3pt specialist Blake, but you need to trade away players for the right to move up to get a combo? Heck, if the team is so stocked why not just trade away the pick completely? I mean at 13 there were still good bigs on the board even by pre-draft ranking (not hindsight stuff).

You might as well say the Pacers really didn't Bender. When you "pay" for a pick (or to move up) then you want/need it.

Shade
01-16-2009, 05:53 PM
Every time I read the name of this thread, it makes me think of the Metallica song "The Thing That Should Not Be"...

Fearless Bird
Insanity!
He watches...
How good could Bayless be??
Our very dreams
Have been upset
Bird decides...Rush's stock is RISINGGG!!
Horrible!
In madness WE DWELL!

Not dead which eternal lie
All Pacer fans forever cry.

Drain us of our sanity
Face THE TRADE THAT SHOULD NOT BE!!!

(air guitar)

Actually, I'm still in the air on the trade. Its just when I hum that tune in my head it makes me laugh.

:rotflmao:

As a Metallica fan, I salute you for that. That is fantastic. :usa:

GrangerRanger
01-16-2009, 06:29 PM
He's got the ceiling of the thug that doesn't want to to go practice and has no ring on his finger other then the bling he bought at Macy's? Sweet.

cinotimz
01-17-2009, 02:18 AM
Bayless = Fred Jones

skyfire
01-17-2009, 02:53 AM
Bayless wouldn't have fit with the team the LB was trying to build. He is too short to be SG and he doesn't have PG skills. So you couldn't play him along side TJ.

In Portland that is mitigated becuase Brandon Roy has PG skills and SG height.

Bayless might turn out to be a better scorer than Rush, but he also might be never more than a 6th man combo-guard.

imawhat
01-17-2009, 03:39 AM
That's one of those over the top quotes, that are completely exaggerated every time someone says it.

On days off pretty much every player comes in and does their own personal workouts. They do it at different times of the day so in order for you to be the first one there and the last one to leave, you would literally be there from open to close.

On practice days, guys that need treatment for injuries sometimes get there hours before practice actually starts, and others stay hours after to get them.

That kind of quote isn't by any means supposed to be taken literally. It's a completely generic compliment, that is said by any player/coach describing someone.

I'm sure his will to succeed is matched by over half the league.


I understand that it's an overused cliche, but I've heard nothing BUT stories about his amazing work ethic. If you haven't seen "Gunnin'", maybe you should before making an equally exaggerated statement about being in the bottom half of the league in will to succeed. The guy lives to be a better player.

cinotimz
01-17-2009, 04:13 AM
I understand that it's an overused cliche, but I've heard nothing BUT stories about his amazing work ethic. If you haven't seen "Gunnin'", maybe you should before making an equally exaggerated statement about being in the bottom half of the league in will to succeed. The guy lives to be a better player.

Gunnin?? Thats the exact reason he was traded...bad fit. The "Gunnin" Pacers were a couple years ago. Shawne is gone, Jackson is gone, Tinsley has been banished to Siberia, and Marquis will likely be gone by Feb. 19...if not then, almost certainly wont be on roster next season. So.... :-p:D

croz24
01-17-2009, 06:14 AM
Bayless = Fred Jones

somebody obviously never watched the two in college to make such a comparison

Young
01-17-2009, 10:55 AM
What's the use in arguing this right now?

Half way into the NBA season, the first NBA season for both of these rookies, and there is already talk of who is better, Rush or Bayless?

I don't care what Bayless has done so far. I don't care what Rush hasn't done so far. What I care about next year is Rush getting better and each year after that until he becomes the starting shooting guard. I hope to see Bayless succeed and if he does or doesn't it will not make the trade a success or failure for the Pacers. What's going to make the trade good for the Pacers is Brandon Rush being a good player in this league.

Will Galen
01-17-2009, 12:13 PM
And I'm still disappointed that we didn't nab one of Portland's second rounders in the trade and take Chalmers.

That wouldn't have made much sense though. Then we would have had Ford, Jack, Diner, Tinsley, and Chalmers. I agree with you that I would have liked the pick though.

flox
01-17-2009, 01:29 PM
Bayless wouldn't have fit with the team the LB was trying to build. He is too short to be SG and he doesn't have PG skills. So you couldn't play him along side TJ.

In Portland that is mitigated becuase Brandon Roy has PG skills and SG height.

Bayless might turn out to be a better scorer than Rush, but he also might be never more than a 6th man combo-guard.

So uh why do we play Jack (same height as Bayless) next to TJ?

Dr. Awesome
01-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Combo guards are, and always will be an awful idea.

Quis
01-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Bayless follows up his megastar 23 point performance by going 0-1 with 2 fouls and a turnover in 5 minutes of scrub action last night. He now has a blistering 18:1 Crappy/Good ratio on the season, clearly the mark of a future MVP candidate.

Kstat
01-17-2009, 02:07 PM
Bayless follows up his megastar 23 point performance by going 0-1 with 2 fouls and a turnover in 5 minutes of scrub action last night. He now has a blistering 19:1 Crappy/Good ratio on the season, clearly the mark of a future MVP candidate.

is he as "crappy" as Rodney Stuckey?

Quis
01-17-2009, 02:10 PM
is he as "crappy" as Rodney Stuckey?

Even crappier, but his team actually wins games so I'd give the advantage to Bayless.

Detroit's now 11-8 since Stuckey was inserted into the starting lineup. He may no longer be a first-ballot 14/5/3 Hall of Famer. I think Chucky Atkins has passed him up.

Kstat
01-17-2009, 02:12 PM
Even crappier, but his team actually wins games so I'd give the advantage to Bayless.

Just checking.

Kstat
01-17-2009, 02:14 PM
So...how long before you stop hating on a 20-year old rookie as if he's a finished product...oh wait.

If Bayliss wasn't traded by the Pacers, would you still be so negative towards him?

ok, ok you got me. If he wasn't traded by the Pacers or a Detroit Piston, would you be so depserate to say ridiculously negative things about him?

Justin Tyme
01-17-2009, 02:17 PM
That wouldn't have made much sense though. Then we would have had Ford, Jack, Diner, Tinsley, and Chalmers. I agree with you that I would have liked the pick though.


Look at that Tinsley wasn't ever going to play, Jack was an expiring, and Diener is never going to be a starting PG. In those terms and the fact Chalmers was your future PG in years to come it makes sense.

Shade
01-17-2009, 02:33 PM
Look at that Tinsley wasn't ever going to play, Jack was an expiring, and Diener is never going to be a starting PG. In those terms and the fact Chalmers was your future PG in years to come it makes sense.

Agreed. Also, factor in that Ford's health is always a concern, and it was a no-brainer to me, especially at that stage of the draft.

Plus, Chalmers provides defense at the PG spot, something our current core is sorely lacking.

I like Jack and always have, but long-term, I would have been much happier with a Ford/Bayless/Chalmers rotation than Ford/Jack/Diener.

Frostwolf
01-17-2009, 02:40 PM
and now they go quiet now bayless is back to scrub minutes

watch them emerge again two months later when he scores 20 again

Roy Munson
01-17-2009, 04:01 PM
and now they go quiet now bayless is back to scrub minutes

watch them emerge again two months later when he scores 20 again

It won't take two months, but then again, Brandon Roy probably doesn't know as much as most of the sophisticated, knowledgeable posters on this forum either:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2009/01/portland_rebounds_from_loss_at.html

It was a flashback to the player, who in July, steamrolled the Las Vegas summer league with relentless drive after relentless drive. Only this time, it was in the NBA, against a decent Nets team (19-21) that had brawn (7-foot center Brook Lopez), quickness (Harris) and athleticism (Vince Carter) -- but no answer for the 6-foot-3, 200-pound dynamo with tree trunk legs.

"He is amazing at getting to the basket," said Roy, who fared pretty well himself, finishing with 29 points. "I get a chance to see it in practice, and I'm like, when this dude finally gets comfortable out there, he's gonna be tough, because you can't keep him out of the paint."

Why is Bayless able to drive so often and have it appear so easy?

"He's strong, strong as hell," Roy said. "Just play against him and you'll see why he gets there. Tell him to drive on you one time. He puts that body on you ... I mean, I was falling back (going) 'Whoooooa!'"

After that happened a couple times in Blazers practices, it struck a chord with Roy. This was not common, he thought. It got him thinking which other players in the NBA posed the same problem when he was guarding them.

"It's the Dwyane Wades that give you that type of problem," Roy said. "You look at the young players, it's Rodney Stuckey. Those dudes that get low and power to the basket, those are the toughest to guard. And he has that."

Few have questioned Bayless' talent. The debate was whether his mind would ever slow down enough to allow him to use it. Between his obsessive work ethic and unrelenting expectations, Bayless had wound himself so tightly that people on, and around, the team worried whether he was about to snap.

Thursday was one big release of all that tension.

"I knew I was pressing," Bayless said. "When you haven't played, you just want to play so well and it's tough to do that when you haven't played in so long. You keep trying to force things. Today, I was just going to let the game come to me."

Kstat
01-17-2009, 04:14 PM
"It's the Dwyane Wades that give you that type of problem," Roy said. "You look at the young players, it's Rodney Stuckey. Those dudes that get low and power to the basket, those are the toughest to guard. And he has that."


:lmao:

Oh man, Quis's head just exploded!

Every player he hates is turning out to be a stud.

The best thing for the Pacers right now is for him to become a knicks fan.

flox
01-17-2009, 04:16 PM
Bayless follows up his megastar 23 point performance by going 0-1 with 2 fouls and a turnover in 5 minutes of scrub action last night. He now has a blistering 18:1 Crappy/Good ratio on the season, clearly the mark of a future MVP candidate.

Can you see into the future? He hasn't played a game since his 23 point explosion. What game are you talking about?

Kstat
01-17-2009, 04:20 PM
Can you see into the future? He hasn't played a game since his 23 point explosion. What game are you talking about?

not really so much a future as it is a parallel universe. One where Rodney Stuckey and Jerryd Bayliss are terrible guards with no hope of even being average.

Apparently, Brandon Roy does not live in the same dimension.

Naptown_Seth
01-17-2009, 05:48 PM
As a Rush fan I will say that I was perhaps a bigger Chalmers fan and LOVED where you could get him. Other later guards I loved were Lee and Weaver. Kyle hasn't gotten much time yet but Lee has been as great as expected. I called him a poor man's Rush before the draft.

There are other ways the draft could have been worked, you could have had Speights and Chamlers or some other mix, maybe even kept a 3rd pick to get Lee. But after seeing Hibbert come along not too bad with his post offense I feel like they handled it pretty well as is.

Different situations for each guy makes it a little tricky to be certain, and it's too early. As mentioned with Bayless, you have to wonder why he goes back to low minutes and blah play immediately following his "breakout" game. Something is up because no coach (no winning coach) just craps away good talent. It costs a coach his job if the team doesn't win, so they rarely pass up the chance to play a guy that can get it done.

This was the Larry Brown problem, vendettas against guys like Rose.

I think JOB is right to see flaws in the games of Roy, Rush and McBob, I just think he's overreactive or low tolerent of those flaws. But he's not blatently wrong. In the same vein, Nate Mac has proven to be a great coach so I doubt he's just selfishly or stupidly refusing to use Bayless.

flox
01-17-2009, 05:52 PM
As mentioned with Bayless, you have to wonder why he goes back to low minutes and blah play immediately following his "breakout" game. Something is up because no coach (no winning coach) just craps away good talent. It costs a coach his job if the team doesn't win, so they rarely pass up the chance to play a guy that can get it done.



Can someone PLEASE show me where you are getting these stats after his breakout game 2 nights ago? As far as most boxscores are concerned, he hasn't played a game since his NJ explosion.

count55
01-17-2009, 07:49 PM
Can someone PLEASE show me where you are getting these stats after his breakout game 2 nights ago? As far as most boxscores are concerned, he hasn't played a game since his NJ explosion.

This is true.

Of course, whether or not we should have kept Bayless is largely irrelevant to the future success of the Pacers at this point. Today, we have Rush and Jack. There is no Way-Back machine. In order for the Pacers to succeed, Rush and Jack to become good players for us.

There is no reason to begrudge either Portland or Bayless success. There is even less reason to run Bayless down in the manner that some have. Jack being productive, and Rush becoming a good player are the only things that have an actual bearing on the Pacers. If this does happen, then the Pacers will be fine. If it does not happen, then it will not help the Pacers if Bayless craps out as well.

If Bayless becomes a stud, I'm sure some will take some (great) measure of satisfaction in saying, "I told you so." That's fine. They would've certainly earned it, but I've never had any use for "I told you so." In my line of work, it's indicative of a failure to sufficiently make your case, and it adds no value to resolving the problem and moving back towards success.

Now, I recognize that a message board is different from business. Opinions are what they trade in, so there's more cachet to being right or wrong. However, I consider this a Pacer board, and I am more interested in the Pacers succeeding than actually being proven right or wrong. If the Pacers do things that I don't agree with and win, then fantastic. If they lose, then it still sucks, and me possibly being right doesn't make it suck any less.

In any case, I am still hopeful of Rush, and I'm very happy with Jack. I still expect Bayless to be a good pro as a scorer along the lines of a Ben Gordon.

Quis
01-17-2009, 09:04 PM
So...how long before you stop hating on a 20-year old rookie as if he's a finished product...oh wait.

If the pro-Bayless crowd can rub it in our face when he has a single good game, surely it's only fair to point out the previous 18 games that he was absolutely terrible in?

If his 'fans' insist on calling him a future All-Star then I shall insist on critiquing him as such.


If Bayliss wasn't traded by the Pacers, would you still be so negative towards him?

ok, ok you got me. If he wasn't traded by the Pacers or a Detroit Piston, would you be so depserate to say ridiculously negative things about him?

I've been as harsh a Brand Rush critic as anyone here. I didn't like the pick at the time and I've seen nothing to change my mind. I hope he turns it around, but I'm highly doubtful. I didn't think he was that good at Kansas.

flox
01-17-2009, 09:16 PM
If the pro-Bayless crowd can rub it in our face when he has a single good game, surely it's only fair to point out the previous 18 games that he was absolutely terrible in?

That's fine, but don't make up statistics. That tends to ruin your credibility.

edit: so far he is 4-6 tonight, while being a -1 on the court. So far he has only had one and one attempt

flox
01-18-2009, 01:09 AM
32 minutes, 14 points, 6-9, 3-4 ft, -3 on the boxscore.

Bayless has put together a better 2 game stretch than Rush has had so far.

A Ford/Bayless backcourt would be more effective than a Ford/Jack backcourt, which is what we have been seeing this season.

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-18-2009, 01:59 AM
Are we gonna be getting daily updates of Bayless now?

I think we should move on. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

It's like stalking your ex girlfriend on Facebook to see what she's doing lately even though you're the one who broke things off and want no part of her because you care about the whole package instead of just the looks.

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2009, 04:53 AM
My mistake, I thought the following was true when I made my last post...

Bayless follows up his megastar 23 point performance by going 0-1 with 2 fouls and a turnover in 5 minutes of scrub action last night. He now has a blistering 18:1 Crappy/Good ratio on the season, clearly the mark of a future MVP candidate.
Rather than what his real box was vs Charlotte last night.

However his real box does show some of the same issues as always. He made ONE jump shot. His other 5 came at the rim. That's fine in general, but the Pacers already have Marquis Daniels and are coached by a jumpshooting coach.

Still I won't argue against doing whatever as long as it works. JOB would just have to learn to let him loose if he could go 12-19 at the rim with 8 FTAs too. The issue is could he get that without a ton of talent opening up space for him.

But worse in my eyes is yet another "I'm not a PG" game from him. ZERO assists, that's ZERO, in 32 minutes of play. You know, because it's not like the Blazers have other options to pass to.


Right now how is Bayless not a 6'3" version of Quis, complete with lack of outside game?


This is not to trash Bayless, but for F's sake you guys need to get a grip on anointing him king s*** of the NBA. I mean the Blazers are now 1-2 with him getting 20+ minutes and those 3 games were Philly, Nets and Bobcats. This from simply swapping out Blake for Bayless.

If you can crap on Rush for his outings then so far Bayless has been easily just as uninspiring. That's all most of us are saying. It just sounds like "he sucks" to people that think he's AI reborn.

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2009, 05:13 AM
32 minutes, 14 points, 6-9, 3-4 ft, -3 on the boxscore.

Bayless has put together a better 2 game stretch than Rush has had so far.

A Ford/Bayless backcourt would be more effective than a Ford/Jack backcourt, which is what we have been seeing this season.
And he flames out...

@DAL, @HOU, Pacers go 1-1 and only lose to Dallas by 3.

Rush goes 13-20, 2-4 from 3, 1 stl, 6 reb, 3 TOs, 4 assists
He's +8 vs Dallas and +15 vs Houston, 66 minutes total played.


Hmm, funny thing is that the Nets do ring a bell. Maybe because Rush went for 22 points on 8-12 himself plus 8 rebounds against them.

So you tell me, is 8-12 better/worse than 6-9 (hint, they are both .667 shooting)? In other words whoop-de-freaking-doo that Bayless "torched" the Nets.



BTW, I'll take 36% from 3 over 0-7 from my shooting guard thank you, especially when he also likes to play defense. You know what Granger shot his rookie year from deep or what Reggie Miller shot his rookie year from deep? (32.3 and 35.5 respectively)

This from a guy who has clearly been in a shooting slump for big chunks of the season. In other words, he's a rookie. Sorry he's not Mayo or Rose but he wasn't supposed to be. Rush has an effective FG% of 45% so far this year, Bayless is at 35% adjusted, and this after 2 nights of 6 of 9 shooting.


It wasn't even Rush for Bayless straight up. So not only does Bayless have to start matching Rush's season output he has to GREATLY outplay him. I mean really this trade is still Bayless for Jack if you want to talk combo guard, with Rush as a throw-in pure SG.

Has Bayless really come close to impacting games like Jack has this year? And Jack is only 25 himself. So realistically you shouldn't see an age impact for another 6-7 years (where Jack starts to fall off while Bayless is still in prime time).

DisplacedKnick
01-18-2009, 10:17 AM
Combo guards are, and always will be an awful idea.

Yeah - that Dwayne Wade fella is terrible.

Combo guards work fine if they have the right skills - the problem's when you have a guy who's not quite a good enough shooter to be a SG and not quite a good enough ballhandler/passer to be a PG and he gets labeled a combo guard.

FWIW - Michael Jordan was a combo guard. Regardless of Kerr or Paxson dribbling the ball up the court, Jordan was the guy who initiated the offense. Kerr and/or Paxson mainly hung around the perimeter waiting for an open jump shot.

You get a guy who's a good enough shooter to be a SG and the kind of ballhandling skills to be a PG and THEN you have a very good combo guard.

Kstat
01-18-2009, 10:31 AM
Combo guards are, and always will be an awful idea.

Chauncey Billups
Dewayne Wade
Rodney Stuckey
Brandon Roy
Monta Ellis
Jason Terry
Leandro Barbosa
Delonte West

vnzla81
01-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Chauncey Billups
Dewayne Wade
Rodney Stuckey
Brandon Roy
Monta Ellis
Jason Terry
Leandro Barbosa
Delonte West

Hey you forgot your boy Iverson :-p