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View Full Version : What is Dunleavy's natural position?



Doddage
07-14-2008, 09:58 PM
All right, I'd like to get this settled myself. What do you all think is Dunleavy's natural position?

I'd like to get a basketball explanation here as opposed to what he's been listed as in the past or present.

Ownagedood
07-14-2008, 10:00 PM
I think his natural position is SF... I mean, what do I know... But that's where I would have him on a team if I had to make the depth chart.. which is possibly where he would be if we didn't have Danny.. Especially since we have the good Rush now.

Just watching him play.. When I see him play, I automatically think he plays like a SF.. Not a true SG.

BlueNGold
07-14-2008, 10:02 PM
If you had to pick between the two. SF...

Placebo
07-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Dun is a natural SF.
He is simply too slow for guarding the twos and he is not athletic enough to play the 2 position. But he is a very good passer and has a good court vision so sometimes he plays like a point forward and sets up plays for his teammates.

But yeah, whenever he isn't playing as a SF, he is off-position.

count55
07-14-2008, 10:06 PM
Missionary...

JayRedd
07-14-2008, 10:08 PM
It's just a style. We don't have to go outside or anything.

Doddage
07-14-2008, 10:14 PM
Dun is a natural SF.
He is simply too slow for guarding the twos and he is not athletic enough to play the 2 position. But he is a very good passer and has a good court vision so sometimes he plays like a point forward and sets up plays for his teammates.

But yeah, whenever he isn't playing as a SF, he is off-position.
That's exactly what I thought, but some people claim that Dunleavy's an SG based on what he does on offense. Like come off screens, spot up, etc., but even then I'd say he's an SF because he's just not quick enough to create his own offense.

rexnom
07-14-2008, 10:22 PM
That's exactly what I thought, but some people claim that Dunleavy's an SG based on what he does on offense. Like come off screens, spot up, etc., but even then I'd say he's an SF because he's just not quick enough to create his own offense.
Who creates more offense for himself and others - Reggie in his prime or Dunleavy? Who's a SG and who isn't?

I don't really care about SG or SF. I think we need two wings and the problem is that Dunleavy doesn't complement Danny as well as other players could. And Danny is clearly the future at one of those spots. I think Larry is hoping Rush can fill up the other wing.

Placebo
07-14-2008, 10:34 PM
That's exactly what I thought, but some people but even then I'd say he's an SF because he's just not quick enough to create his own offense.

Well there are slower SG's in the league who struggles to create their own shot, but there are quick SF's who can create... So I think offensive speed/creativity cannot be the only parameter to evaluate a player's position. I would also say Dun is fairly good at creating for himself. He has so many weapons.
He is tall but still can put it on the floor, shoot the 3 consistently, find the open man... I think he is a fantastic offensive player no matter what position he plays. I know we have a logjam at SF with Dun/Granger but still I'd HATE to see Dun got traded.

andreialta
07-15-2008, 02:38 AM
Dun is a natural SG. Back in Duke he is a SG, often times mistaken to be a 3 but he played 2, Dime named them the best back court combination from college players, from 1998 - 2008.

Jay Williams and Mike Dunleavy combo

Speed
07-15-2008, 09:01 AM
SF is his natural position.

The biggest thing that could take him to the next level would be to actually use his height at the Shooting guards, though.

He wastes 6'9" by not being able to post up and not being able to contest shots better.

In reality, Mikes best position is 6th man backing up the 2 and 3, imo, at least on a a very good team that would/should be his role. He'll still get minutes and really be a glue guy that makes the whole better than the sum of the parts. As a starting 2 of 3 you start to think how you have to cover for his shortcomings defensively. As a 6th man you think of all of the things he brings with play making and shot taking.

I think he's not a STARTING 2 or 3 against most match ups. Again, not on a good team, at least. To me he's a C plus grade starter, but an A plus 6th man.

Anthem
07-15-2008, 09:46 AM
He wastes 6'9" by not being able to post up and not being able to contest shots better.
So true.

It boggles the mind, actually. Larry's always on about having a well-rounded game... I can't understand why Dunleavy's not killing opposing SGs in the post.

MyFavMartin
07-15-2008, 11:01 AM
JOB's stated that the wing positions in his offense are interchangeable, so does it really matter?

Hicks
07-15-2008, 11:21 AM
JOB's stated that the wing positions in his offense are interchangeable, so does it really matter?

It does on defense.

rexnom
07-15-2008, 11:24 AM
It does on defense.
If Dunleavy could guard Ben Gordon and Ray Allen, would that make him a SG?

idioteque
07-15-2008, 11:34 AM
It does on defense.

I don't get it. Don't you just put the better defending wing on the better offensive player?

If we are playing Cleveland I expect Rush to probably guard LBJ (maybe not next year but in following years) while Dun is on Wally Z regardless of their offensive roles.

rexnom
07-15-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't get it. Don't you just put the better defending wing on the better offensive player?

If we are playing Cleveland I expect Rush to probably guard LBJ (maybe not next year but in following years) while Dun is on Wally Z regardless of their offensive roles.
I agree. We have two wings. Position matters less on defense.

MyFavMartin
07-15-2008, 11:45 AM
It does on defense.

Dun has length, which helps. Yes, it'd be nice if he was quicker, but considering the opposing teams SG gets run off of picks, I'm not sure being quicker would help that... Our PnR defense last year was horrible...

Speed
07-15-2008, 11:49 AM
I agree. We have two wings. Position matters less on defense.

I completely disagree, position matters most on defense.

If you have two similar players on the wing one of them will have to likely guard a guy faster and quicker. It's a match up that if I was facing the Pacers with, I'd try to exploit everytime. It's why lower level 2 guards kill the Pacers and stud 2 guards have career nights. Last year you had K Rush as the only pure 2 guard and now you have his brother. It would be okay if Dun could exploit his height and size, but he can't so instead he has to chase Rip Hamilton around.

I think on offense you want complimentary skill sets, but its on defense where you need to have a guy who can guard his position.

Don't make me invoke a Tinsley example. :)

Hicks
07-15-2008, 11:51 AM
If Dunleavy could guard Ben Gordon and Ray Allen, would that make him a SG?

An unusually large one, yes. Well, that or just a very versatile SF. I still want to call him a SF given his size.

Hicks
07-15-2008, 11:53 AM
Our PnR defense last year was horrible...

I thought it was horrible in 2007, but not 2008. As a matter of fact, we worked so hard at stopping the PnR that we left other players wide open.

MyFavMartin
07-15-2008, 11:59 AM
I thought it was horrible in 2007, but not 2008. As a matter of fact, we worked so hard at stopping the PnR that we left other players wide open.

I think the players were still having problems figuring out JOB's defensive rotation schemes from what I saw... There was a game in Chicago that really sticks out in my mind where the Bulls were left wide open shots after PnR situations, typically for three but unfortunately some 2 footers. Typically the weakside post player would help out too much leaving his man wide open under the basket.

Hicks
07-15-2008, 12:27 PM
Typically our D would rotate to cover the guy near the basket. The problem was THAT guy's man was left open in the corner all day.

Naptown_Seth
07-15-2008, 12:28 PM
Hmm, a shooter with modest handles, good height, solid rebounder and slow on perimeter defense.

Why is this even a discussion? Dun's not just an SF, he's nearly the prototype of one. Sure you have defensive SFs, SFs who drive more than shoot, SFs with weaker handles, but those are just the flavors.

If you are screwed on a PG/SG pick and roll switch...even before the switch ;)...then you are not an SG.

Not only all that but Dun likes to play from the wing more than up top, other than coming down to step into a 3pt shot. His GO TO MOVE is the wing drive to reverse layup. 2-3 per game like money. To me that's all SF.

McKeyFan
07-15-2008, 12:43 PM
All this makes you wonder how many games, especially at the end of the year, could look like this down the stretch:

Ford/Jack
Rush/Jack
Dunleavey
Granger
Center

Personally, I kind of like that line up. Small ball for sure, and we are still left with no pure creator besides Ford. But it sure beats our options from last year.

Truth be told, Dun might be the better option in this line up at the four (on offense). At least he creates better within the perimeter than Danny does.

Naptown_Seth
07-15-2008, 12:48 PM
All this makes you wonder how many games, especially at the end of the year, could look like this down the stretch:

Ford/Jack
Rush/Jack
Dunleavey
Granger
Center

Personally, I kind of like that line up. Small ball for sure, and we are still left with no pure creator besides Ford. But it sure beats our options from last year.

Truth be told, Dun might be the better option in this line up at the four (on offense). At least he creates better within the perimeter than Danny does.
Dun is not the rebounder Croshere was but is a better passer than AC. Both make an odd but possibly effective fit at the 4.

However I'm with you that you put Danny there at times instead. I mean with all the rotations it might be nice to have a 4 like Danny that can actually close out those corners after helping.


I thought it was horrible in 2007, but not 2008. As a matter of fact, we worked so hard at stopping the PnR that we left other players wide open.
100% agree. PnR was the one thing they targeted and stopped it be damned. But the open corners or drive-bys from the corners really hurt them.

Speed
07-15-2008, 12:54 PM
All this makes you wonder how many games, especially at the end of the year, could look like this down the stretch:

Ford/Jack
Rush/Jack
Dunleavey
Granger
Center

Personally, I kind of like that line up. Small ball for sure, and we are still left with no pure creator besides Ford. But it sure beats our options from last year.

Truth be told, Dun might be the better option in this line up at the four (on offense). At least he creates better within the perimeter than Danny does.

Maybe, I think Obie hinted at going small somewhere I've read recently.

I think the perfect storm is:

TJ/JJ
B Rush/Dun
DG/Dun
Murphy/Foster
C

I think it will work out, in a tight rotation plan, to do it this way, regardless of who starts:

PG

TJ - 28 mins
JJ - 20 mins

Wings

DG - 32 mins
Dun - 32 mins
Rush - 32 mins

Post

Murphy - 32 mins
Nesto - 32 mins
Foster - 32 mins


I mean if you're like if you in the playoffs and you are completely trying to win. I think alot depends on B Rush, I think they are crazy high on him.

Early in the season I think you'll see all kinds of things. I know I've heard Obie he'll only play 4 wings at the most and it seems like Marquis is that 4th guy. I know the want to develop Hibbert, but we and they I think have to be patient with him.

We'll see, it's all just my opinion. I'll probably change they way I feel 10 times by opening night.

grace
07-15-2008, 02:21 PM
Missionary...

Fetal

Jonathan
07-15-2008, 02:25 PM
you should put Bench on this poll.

avoidingtheclowns
07-15-2008, 02:27 PM
Fetal

some players are from the larry brown school of defense

some players are from the don nelson school of defense

dunleavy is from the kyle korver school of defense


http://1sixty2.com/sports/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/korver-duck-cover.jpg

JayRedd
07-15-2008, 02:47 PM
He actually did his undergrad at the Kobe school though:

http://calvinshub.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/image002.jpg

Kid Minneapolis
07-15-2008, 03:47 PM
What is Dunleavy's natural position?

Missionary? Or doggy-style?

:D

Kid Minneapolis
07-15-2008, 03:52 PM
I'll be surprised if Rush is starting this year. If we still have both Dunleavy and Granger, I don't see Rush being a better player *this* year than either of those two.

I see him comin off the bench. If he gets big starter minutes, it's because he's way better than we think, or either Dunleavy/Granger goes down with injury.

maragin
07-15-2008, 04:02 PM
I think he'd make a hell of a 6th man on a contending team. First off the bench spelling a wing.

I think he's a natural "switch". Someone you can start the game with at the 3, and if your best bench guy is a natural 3, he can slide to the 2.

Anthem
07-15-2008, 04:33 PM
I think he's a natural "switch".
Dude, the missionary and doggy-style jokes were bad enough, but that's just plain mean.

maragin
07-15-2008, 05:35 PM
Dude, the missionary and doggy-style jokes were bad enough, but that's just plain mean.

He's heading down to Talbot St. to go clubbing with Diener.

(good catch on my unintentional)

count55
07-15-2008, 05:47 PM
Fetal

(soon to be) prone

http://www.amandanjohn.com/images/funnypics/Mike_Dunleavy_Kicked_In_Face.jpg

d_c
07-15-2008, 05:57 PM
Dun is a natural SG. Back in Duke he is a SG, often times mistaken to be a 3 but he played 2, Dime named them the best back court combination from college players, from 1998 - 2008.

Jay Williams and Mike Dunleavy combo

Dunleavy in his junior season (last season in college) at Duke played power forward, with Boozer as the center and Dahntay Jones at SF. He may have played other positions in yeas prior to this.

Jay Williams' backcourt mate for most of the time at Duke was Chris Duhon (though not in Dunleavy's last year).

ChicagoJ
07-15-2008, 07:21 PM
some players are from the larry brown school of defense

some players are from the don nelson school of defense

dunleavy is from the kyle korver school of defense


How does Dunleavy take so many charges then?

He's not the quickest guy in the world, but he does give defensive effort.

Taterhead
07-15-2008, 07:41 PM
I view positions based on defense more than offense. Offense is a collection of roles, defense is match-ups. Dun can fill the SG role on the offensive end, but must guard the SF on the other.

Therefor I would say Dunleavy is a natural 3 man, as is Granger.

andreialta
07-15-2008, 09:04 PM
Dunleavy in his junior season (last season in college) at Duke played power forward, with Boozer as the center and Dahntay Jones at SF. He may have played other positions in yeas prior to this.

Jay Williams' backcourt mate for most of the time at Duke was Chris Duhon (though not in Dunleavy's last year).

http://dimemag.com/2008/04/the-best-of-the-backcourt/

The Top 15 Backcourts 1998-2008:
1 - 2000-01 Duke Blue Devils: Jay Williams and Mike Dunleavy, Jr.
Truthfully, this tandem takes top honors because no one was better than Jason Williams. After much debate in the office, we determined that Dunleavy did in fact play the two. Most often, Coach K put out a lineup of Boozer at the five, Battier at the four, Nate James at the three, then Dunleavy and J-Will. They beat Arizona 82-72 in the final to go 35-4 for the ‘chip.
Williams: 21.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 2 spg, 47.3 FG%
Dunleavy: 12.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.6 apg, 47.4 FG%

d_c
07-15-2008, 09:41 PM
http://dimemag.com/2008/04/the-best-of-the-backcourt/

The Top 15 Backcourts 1998-2008:
1 - 2000-01 Duke Blue Devils: Jay Williams and Mike Dunleavy, Jr.
Truthfully, this tandem takes top honors because no one was better than Jason Williams. After much debate in the office, we determined that Dunleavy did in fact play the two. Most often, Coach K put out a lineup of Boozer at the five, Battier at the four, Nate James at the three, then Dunleavy and J-Will. They beat Arizona 82-72 in the final to go 35-4 for the ‘chip.
Williams: 21.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 2 spg, 47.3 FG%
Dunleavy: 12.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.6 apg, 47.4 FG%

That's where he played his soph year. I specifically made note of what position Dunleavy was playing his junior year, when Williams and Battier were long gone.

FWIW, Dunleavy by his junior year had grown a couple of inches from when he first entered Duke. He wasn't as tall when he was a freshman as he'd be a couple years later.

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Seasons/20012002_duke_blue_devils.htm

2001-2002 Duke Blue Devils
G- Chris Duhon
G- Jay Williams
F- Dahntay Jones
F- Mike Dunleavy
C- Carlos Boozer

Edit from above: I was incorrect that Jason Williams wasn't there in Dunleavy's final season. They both played that season

avoidingtheclowns
07-15-2008, 10:03 PM
How does Dunleavy take so many charges then?

poor fetal position crouching?


He's not the quickest guy in the world, but he does give defensive effort.

it was a fetal position specific joke. no need to over-analyze.

BlueNGold
07-15-2008, 10:10 PM
I don't think the Duke comparisons...whatever they seek to prove...are relevant. This is the NBA and whatever your natural position is changes. Dunleavy's natural position in 5th grade was Center probably. Is that relevant now? NO!

The truth is, he is a good enough player to play either position at the highest level. The percentages here don't lie, he's closer to a natural SF...or maybe a point-forward. In any event, I'm glad he's a Pacer but I know you don't want him one of your best two players...