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View Full Version : Current Pistons team better than the Pacers because ?



Unclebuck
06-15-2004, 12:01 AM
Not because of talent, not because of better defense, not even because the Pistons are tougher and more experienced

Pistons are currently better than the pacers because:

Tthe Pistons have perfectly defined roles. They have great chemistry, they don't have bench guys who think they should start. They don't have starters who try to outscore the other starters. The Pistons know what their best 5 on the floor is. The Pacers don't. Pistons don't have guys who think they should be in the floor at crunch time when they shouldn't

Pistons are a finished product, the Rasheed trade finished the product. There is never a question as to who is goig to be on the floor at the most important part of the game. Sheed completed the Pistons.

What DW and LB have to do this summer is make a trade that will complete the pacers

The Pacers are still searching to find the perfect on the court chemistry

Pacers are light years ahead of where they were 12 months ago, but they lost to the Pistons not because of difference in talent, but because the Pistons are a finished product, the Pacers are still trying to reach that point

Kstat
06-15-2004, 12:14 AM
Not because of talent, not because of better defense, not even because the Pistons are tougher and more experienced

Pistons are currently better than the pacers because:

Tthe Pistons have perfectly defined roles. They have great chemistry, they don't have bench guys who think they should start. They don't have starters who try to outscore the other starters. The Pistons know what their best 5 on the floor is. The Pacers don't. They don't have guys who thinkt hey should be in the floor at crunch time when they shouldn't

Pistons are a finished product, the Rasheed trade finished the product.

The Pacers are still searching to find the perfect on the court chemistry

Pacers are light years ahead of where they were 12 months ago, but they lost to the Pistons not because of difference in talent, but because the Pistons are a finished product, the Pacers are still trying to reach that point

I have to somewhat disagree.

This team is FAR from a finished product offensively. Rasheed is still finding his way in our offense, which isnt built for his post game. Billups, as Eric Snow will tell you, is learning an offensive system that even the brightest PG takes YEARS to master.

I expect the Pistons to be FAR better next year offensively, future additions notwithstanding.

I do think that the Pistons play more as a team. There isnt a Harrington or an Artest that constantly breaks the offense. If anything, our faults are that our guys are too PASSIVE offensively.

Peck
06-15-2004, 12:24 AM
What?

Defined roles?

Players playing within an offensive structure?

It can't be.

Oh wait, Larry Brown is the coach. It's all clear to me now.

Bball
06-15-2004, 12:34 AM
The Pistons seem to have players that relish and embrace their roles.

Excellent post, UB.

-Bball

Will Galen
06-15-2004, 04:03 AM
Pacers are light years ahead of where they were 12 months ago, but they lost to the Pistons not because of difference in talent, but because the Pistons are a finished product, the Pacers are still trying to reach that point

Pacers lost to the Pistons because Tinsley and JO were injuried.

Kstat
06-15-2004, 04:32 AM
Pacers are light years ahead of where they were 12 months ago, but they lost to the Pistons not because of difference in talent, but because the Pistons are a finished product, the Pacers are still trying to reach that point

Pacers lost to the Pistons because Tinsley and JO were injuried.

Or because the refs screwed them.

Will Galen
06-15-2004, 04:39 AM
Pacers are light years ahead of where they were 12 months ago, but they lost to the Pistons not because of difference in talent, but because the Pistons are a finished product, the Pacers are still trying to reach that point

Pacers lost to the Pistons because Tinsley and JO were injuried.

Or because the refs screwed them.

Nope! What I said, but then injuries are as much a part of the game as hitting shots. Hence, the best team at the time won.

able
06-15-2004, 05:36 AM
Kstat; your homerism is starting to get tiresome.

You have the ability to post interesting stuff, with a less homerism tainted content, you seem however to have lost that ability and your posts are starting to get obnoxious at best.

This is not the Pistons forum, and it is not our fault that there is no decent messageboard for that lot around, take that out on your friends in Detroit.

Respect is a great thing to aquire but much faster lost then gained.

try and show some.

Kstat
06-15-2004, 05:42 AM
Kstat; your homerism is starting to get tiresome.

You have the ability to post interesting stuff, with a less homerism tainted content, you seem however to have lost that ability and your posts are starting to get obnoxious at best.

This is not the Pistons forum, and it is not our fault that there is no decent messageboard for that lot around, take that out on your friends in Detroit.

Respect is a great thing to aquire but much faster lost then gained.

try and show some.

I would take that from a great many people on PD able, but you are most certainly NOT one of them. You have no right to call ANYONE here a homer. You gripe and cry about officiating more than anyone on this board, maybe more than anyone I've ever seen. Simply because more people will point me out than you, because you root for the right team, do NOT take that as a liscense to preach to me.

I do apologize to Will Galen, I should have included a smiley to announce my sarcastic intentions. I meant no malice.

able
06-15-2004, 05:53 AM
Excuse me? Gripe about officiating ??? You must have me mistaken for someone else :D

Please point out a lot of links where I do this, since honestly I have no clue to the fact that I do such a thing which does not distract from the FACT that your posting is tainted to say the least over the recent period.
Rights as to call you out? I have as much right as anyone else on this board to state the obvious.

Attack might be a nice form of self defense, but I am on a Pacers forum, where I am supposed to and allowed to be a Pacers fan, you on the other hand have no right whatsoever to accuse me of being a Pacers fan, you are somewhere lost in lala land on this.

Your outright attack only shows the correctness of my post.

Will Galen
06-15-2004, 06:12 AM
[

I do apologize to Will Galen, I should have included a smiley to announce my sarcastic intentions. I meant no malice.

I didn't think you meant any malice so no apoligy is needed. I thought it a throw away comment aimed at Pacer fans that think the refs did us in.

Able is right though, your opinion is valued, but you do get a bit hard to take at times. Personally I have more of an issue with some Pacer fans because of their homerism, from you I expect it, :) from them it makes them look dumb.

What do I mean? Well, I can't remember any thing right now, so I'll make one up. If a Pacer fan came on here saying, 'Reggie is the greatest,' and really meant it, right now and present day, he would look dumb.

Fool
06-15-2004, 08:27 AM
Kstat,

Just remember, your homerism (as a non-Pacer fan) will always be harder to take then theirs as this is a Pacer board and their homerism will always "go down easier" for them. Also, no matter how objective or even right your thoughts might be on here they can always be easily cast off by the majority as "this is a Pacer board" and you (and I, and a small few others) are not Pacer fans. A short while back I found myself arguing back on subjects I don't come here to get opinions on (something I sometimes fall into) and I suddenly remembered these things again and said, "Hey, there is no changing their minds. We are just fans of different teams."


As for buck, I still think the problem is that the Pacers are too deep at some places and too shallow at other places (I really think its as simple as that). Though I would agree with you as far as I think Larry Brown's system has clear roles for the team in its design that they have been able to step into well, at times. I think thats a definate strength of LB, but I would say the Piston's strength is that they have guys at all five positions (except perhaps center-offensively) that can step up to take advantage of a weakness (not that they always do, by any means) and that the coach can (not that he always does) adapt his system to find or exploit the advantage and help where ever they are weakest. The Pistons aren't great at any position but (I think) they can be quite effective at almost every position.

BillS
06-15-2004, 08:44 AM
To expect the Pacers to go from a team where "defined roles" was an oxymoron to a team where defined roles were accepted and relished in one single season is a bit optimistic.

To continually say that a bench player with the talent to start anywhere else in the league should never say that he'd like to start is a bit strict.

To blame the loss on the Pacer roleplayers "not playing their roles" is a bit simplistic. Seems to me it wasn't the bench roleplayers, it was the failure of certain starters to provide enough offense. Injury or talent doesn't matter, the fact is we couldn't get over the offensive hump.

To "punish" Ron for trying to take over the game at the last minute when no one else was doing so, to "punish" Al as if his lack of consistency was due to him trying to prove he should be starting, these are absurd.

We don't have all the pieces, but I really don't think chemistry and teamwork were the major problem. If so, our team defense would have suffered just as badly as our offense, and it did not.

DisplacedKnick
06-15-2004, 09:33 AM
The Pistons are a more complete team.

Now the difference between the two is razor thin but Detroit has the edge at guard and Rasheed and Ben Wallace make a unique tandem in the frontcourt on defense.

The other difference is how hard the Pistons play all the time. The Pacers lost partly because they crapped out in game 5. Maybe they don't win anyway if they play well - maybe Detroit beats them. But they never gave themselves a chance.

If (should I say when?) Detroit beats LA, they can point squarely to effort, focus, and willingness to stick with their system throughout the entire game. And their talent and coaching ain't bad either.

BTW - I'm not sure where to say this so I'll say it here. I don't know why you guys are dogging kstat so much. It's not like he's starting a bunch of threads crowing about the Pistons. He's just responding to threads where posters here are trying to somehow say the Pacers are a better team despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Every time I see someone calling kstat a homer I automatically think that here's someone who can't win an argument based on logic and has to resort to name-calling.

ChicagoJ
06-15-2004, 10:48 AM
I'm going to chime in a few things here.

For the original premise...

I think UB has raised a good point, but I'd rank that at about #3 on the reasons why we lost to the Pistons. #1 would be injuries to key players at the wrong time. During the ECFs, with Tinsley out and JO hampered, the Pistons were far-and-away the better team, yet we were still competitive. #2 would be our lack of legitimate playoff experience.

I think that playoff experience is one of the main reasons why guys that have been all-around stars for thier entire life become willing to accept a role on a team. They have to learn they can't get it done, individually, against somebody else that's learned to play as a 'team'.

I think people are over-reacting to Kstat right now. We like him, and his team is on the brink of winning it all. Relax. Frankly, Kstat irritated me more during the ECFs, I think he's been fine during The Finals. Its happening all over the board; prior to reading this thread I wouldn't have expected able to jump on him, so I'm not trying to pick on any one poster.

I thought BillS and DK made excellent points, as usual. Our roster is clearly unbalanced, and Detroit was able to capitalize on our already-weak-but-further-hampered-by-injuries backcourt.

grace
06-15-2004, 11:09 AM
Since this thread is showing signs of piling on Kstat I thought I'd join in. He has annoyed the :censor: out of me since the playoffs started. Its really too bad. I used to think he was an O.K. guy. I remember him here last year after we lost in the first round. I actually thought his posts then were pretty classy. The way he is now I find rather sad. :shakehead:

LAPacer
06-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Since this thread is showing signs of piling on Kstat I thought I'd join in. He has annoyed the :censor: out of me since the playoffs started. Its really too bad. I used to think he was an O.K. guy. I remember him here last year after we lost in the first round. I actually thought his posts then were pretty classy. The way he is now I find rather sad. :shakehead:

I have the same thoughts.

Unclebuck
06-15-2004, 12:03 PM
Maybe I should have just canned my theory and just started a Kstat thread, the good, the bad, the ugly.

I must defend my friend Kstat, when I say friend, I mean that as I did meet him at a Pacers game earlier this year and consider him a basketball friend, whatever that means.

Kstat is without question one of my favoite posters on here and the fact that he is a Pistons fan certainly does not diminish that. It is not Kstat's fault that the Pacers lost to his team.

When the Pacers beat a team the last thing we want to hear is that the Pacers won because of the refs or injuries, so then when we say that, ican understand Kstat not liking to read that.

And no he did not annoy me at all in the ECF, many of the other "Pistons fans" did.

Kstat
06-15-2004, 01:10 PM
Since this thread is showing signs of piling on Kstat I thought I'd join in. He has annoyed the :censor: out of me since the playoffs started. Its really too bad. I used to think he was an O.K. guy. I remember him here last year after we lost in the first round. I actually thought his posts then were pretty classy. The way he is now I find rather sad. :shakehead:

The best thing about not being in the finals--not losing a 6 point lead in the last minute.

Oh yeah, you're just the epitome of class Grace.

I do appreciate the long-timers here sticking up for me. You don't have to do it, and I do realize a lot of people are just going to pile on my simply because they euqate me with the Pistons. I'm still here though, and I always will be because of guys like Jay, Rim and UB.

sweabs
06-15-2004, 01:11 PM
I think UB's right on the money with this one. To add to the argument, I'd suggest that Carlisle is more at fault than any of the players. How can you know your role when the rotation is shockingly changed once you get in trouble in the playoffs? It happened in Detroit last year when Tayshaun broke-out and suddenly Corliss and Jon Barry were removed from the line-up.
This year he showed three different starting line-ups against Detroit. The final game RC vindicates Harrington by starting him, although he apparently wasn't good enough to start the entire season before then. It seems that only Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest know their roles. RC Cola needs to show more confidence in his other guys and ultimately, in himself by sticking to the guns he's been slingin' all season. But I'm just a Detroit fan and I might be way-off on this one.

Yes - and if he had "stuck with the guns" you would have accused him of not being able to make appropriate changes.

Bball
06-15-2004, 01:55 PM
There's a fine line between making adjustments and overcoaching. RC put Austin C in the line-up after criticisms about his inability to make bold changes...coincidence? It looked like a young coach acquiescing the public instead of sticking with his winning formula. .

We were losing. He had to counter what Detroit was doing because our normal starting unit couldn't get it done. Detroit was gaining momentum and confidence (not that they were lacking in the first place). We had been able to cover our flaws all year long... even against Detroit... until Detroit acquired Rasheed.

Carlisle would have been skewered if he hadn't made changes and IMHO rightly so.

-Bball

Arcadian
06-15-2004, 02:09 PM
I enjoy Kstat and other non-pacer fan posters. I think the diversity of opinion makes this board what it is. It gives us a wider perspective and discussion. I think that is well worth it having to see other team logos and an occasional jab.

On the subject of the thread I think it helps that Detriot has older players who know thier limitations and accept their roles more readily. A lot of the chemistry issues on the Pacer squad have to do with youth rather than the players being bad teammates.

Hoop
06-15-2004, 04:06 PM
Kstat; your homerism is starting to get tiresome.

You have the ability to post interesting stuff, with a less homerism tainted content, you seem however to have lost that ability and your posts are starting to get obnoxious at best.

This is not the Pistons forum, and it is not our fault that there is no decent messageboard for that lot around, take that out on your friends in Detroit.

Respect is a great thing to aquire but much faster lost then gained.

try and show some.

Yep, very tiresome.

Suaveness
06-15-2004, 04:43 PM
I have nothing wrong with what Kstat has to say. His insight into bball is fun to read, and I hope you continue. Though, of course, I think you should make the Pacers your favorite team, but I won't hold it against ya :flirt:

beast23
06-15-2004, 10:16 PM
I do applaud Detroit in how quickly Rasheed blended with the team and in the starting lineup.

But I don't think that is why we lost.

In order, I rank the reasons as:
#1 - **** poor perimeter shooting
#2 - injuries to JO and Tinsley
#3 - inability to defend Rasheed and keep him off the boards

We may have won if JO and Tinsley had not been injured, but I doubt it. Give me a capable perimeter shooter and I believe it is very likely we would have won. Give me the shooter and a better defender on Rasheed and I'm quite certain that we would have won.

And that pretty much states what we must do this summer.

Oh, and Kstat. Please notice that I made no mention of the refs, who weren't great, but had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the series. :)