PDA

View Full Version : Will the Pacers make the playoffs?



2minutes twowa
07-09-2008, 11:04 AM
Let me start this thread by saying I like the moves the Pacers have made. I do think Bird has improved the team immediately and for the future. However, the Pacers haven't been the only Eastern Conference team improving:

Miami: Wade, Marion, Beasley will be tough. Added Chalmers and James Jones

Philly: Adding Brand to an already talented young team was huge.

Atlanta: As long as they don't lose anyone via FA, they're still a talented young team and Bibby will have a full training camp under his belt.

Along with these three teams Cleveland, Detroit, Boston, Orlando, and Washington are poised for a return to the playoffs.

I am a big Pacers fan and believe we will have a very competative team this year, but unless the new players mesh right away and Hibbert and Rush produce quickly, I don't see the playoffs this year. I hate saying that, and I hope I am totally wrong

count55
07-09-2008, 11:12 AM
I voted yes, but it's far from a sure thing. I think Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, and Orlando are all clearly better. Toronto, Washington, and, now, Philly, probably should be. Chicago, Miami, Milwaukee, and Atlanta are in a box with the Pacers. NY, NJ, and Charlotte are, IMO, clearly worse.

I think the Pacers best case scenario would be to creep up with Toronto/Wash/Philly group, but more likely, if they make the playoffs, it will be because they'll end up at the top of the group they're listed in here.

idioteque
07-09-2008, 11:16 AM
No, there are too many teams that have surged ahead of us. I think we will be a better team than we were last year but there are simply too many good teams in the East now (never thought I would say that). The team we have last year probably would have made it over last year's Hawks, though.

Right now I see it as:

1. Boston
2. Detroit
3. Philly
4. Cleveland
5. Orlando
6. Washington
7. Miami

So, for the 8th spot, you got Atlanta, Chicago, Toronto, New Jersey, all as legit contenders. Indiana may even be a tier below these teams next year. Making the playoffs is going to be tough.

If everything goes wrong (all of the teams listed have a better record than us) we'll have, at worst, the 6th most ping pong balls in the lottery next year and will be able to draft a really good player, and knowing Bird, someone who could help right away. Figure in all those expiring contracts and we'll be able to sign a couple of hard nosed guys in the middle of their careers as well. After then, things will start to look up. Next year is still very much a transition year IMHO.

Dukins
07-09-2008, 11:19 AM
I know its too early to tell. But I dont think they will make the playoffs this year. We are a very very young team. I wish we could trade for a veteran power forward, a no-nonsense type of guy. Sort of like the Davis boys were. :confused:

Ownagedood
07-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Prolly not.. But I still voted yes.. Miami is going to be a force this year.. I think people are forgetting they "gave up" last season to get Beasley.. They still have DWAYNE WADE AND Shawn Marion and now Beasley.. They will be a force. It will be a tight race between Chicago, New Jersey and us between making the playoffs or not.. I am guessing we will not beat them out.. But the East is now, already, much better then they were last year.

Unclebuck
07-09-2008, 11:41 AM
Way to early to make any predictions. But if I had to say right now, I would say - no

Infinite MAN_force
07-09-2008, 11:48 AM
I tend to think we will, but I would not be surprised if we don't.

Boston, Detroit, Cleveland are out of are leaugue at the moment. Orlando and Toronto and Philly (now) might be, however after that... I could see the Pacers being at least on par with teams like Washington, Milwaukee, Miami, and Atlanta. In fact, If I had to predict, It will probably be a dogfight with Atlanta and milwaukee for the 8th seed. Miami I just don't know how to predict.

avoidingtheclowns
07-09-2008, 11:49 AM
p3-eavMSBnk

JayRedd
07-09-2008, 11:53 AM
...I just hope we can win a game.

QuickRelease
07-09-2008, 11:53 AM
p3-eavMSBnk

That will never, ever, ever get old! :laugh:

Roaming Gnome
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Last year we were predicted to finish next to last in conf. Due to everyone getting better last offseason. Remember how NY was supose to be so much better because of all their addition. Whoops!

The team will improve to the point where I can see us pushing again for the play-offs, but just falling short this year. Even if we don't the key is that the team is improving with a plan in place. ie. A good first step.
You have to learn to crawl before you learn to run. I think we went thru our crawl last year and now we are ready to wobble like a toddler before we get solid enough to fully walk (make play-offs).

Dukins
07-09-2008, 12:02 PM
p3-eavMSBnk


That will never, ever, ever get old! :laugh:


Im with you, this is classic.

pwee31
07-09-2008, 12:04 PM
I think they'll get a 7th or 8th spot.

If we stay healthy, our roster fits our coach and style a lot better

And granted we didn't have the greatest record, and the East wasn't as good, we barely missed the playoffs, playing without 2 keys players for half the season.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 12:07 PM
I think Atlanta's got to be a lock for the playoffs if they keep their crew together. They got a lot better after picking up Bibby... look at their W/L record after the ASB.

Jonathan
07-09-2008, 12:26 PM
I voted Yes, I think our team will play very hard and go right around .500. That is good enough to make the playoffs in the East. I like the addition of TJ Ford. He is a winner & did it with the Bucks why not the Pacers?

Justin Tyme
07-09-2008, 01:26 PM
This thread topic is a "little" pre-mature considering that team's rosters aren't set yet. As UB said, it's way too early. There will be more FA signings and teams making trades, so a team now like Chicago or Toronto can make moves that could easily put them in the playoffs thus pushing another team out of the playoff picture.

It's a good thread to be re-visited at the beginning of the coming season. I voted no. I don't see at the "present" time the Pacers have enough to make the playoffs, BUT that could change IF Bird makes some trades.

croz24
07-09-2008, 01:46 PM
hope not

d_c
07-09-2008, 01:52 PM
hope not


lol

LoneGranger33
07-09-2008, 02:14 PM
Let's see where Josh Smith goes, if anywhere, before we decide on Atlanta. You had to have been impressed by them in the playoffs last season, if only at home.

Hicks
07-09-2008, 02:17 PM
I think we have a good shot if T.J. Ford's neck isn't clobbered.

Granger, Dunleavy, Foster, and Murphy are all still here, and they get help from Ford, Jack, Rush, Nesterovic, and Hibbert now.

Unclebuck
07-09-2008, 02:41 PM
I think we have a good shot if T.J. Ford's neck isn't clobbered.

Granger, Dunleavy, Foster, and Murphy are all still here, and they get help from Ford, Jack, Rush, Nesterovic, and Hibbert now.

Also will depend on how many wins it will take, if 37 wins gets the 8th spot - then we have a pretty good chance. if it is a more typical year and it takes 41 or so, then that makes it a lot tougher

Cherokee
07-09-2008, 03:39 PM
I voted yes, but I think I'm wrong.

BillS
07-09-2008, 03:49 PM
I think we'll squeak in, pissing off all the gurus who think high lottery picks should get us great players who we should then fail to use so we can get more great players the next year.

However, playing well (at least, playing better than we have been and winning more often) will cause the rest of the community to start looking at the Pacers more kindly.

So, I guess it's a toss-up - go for that lottery a few more years to make the Las Vegas Pacers the best they can possibly be, or start winning now to make some money and rebuild fan support.

grace
07-09-2008, 03:50 PM
I vote maybe...maybe not.

Isaac
07-09-2008, 05:43 PM
The East will be better this year than it was last year, and it will probably take 42 wins to get in. I think we will be in the battle for the 7 and 8 seeds with Milwaukee, Washington and Miami.

Boston, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland, Orlando and Toronto will be 1-6.


This is still my favorite Jim Mora rant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI
Every second of that makes me laugh my *** off.

Rajah Brown
07-09-2008, 05:53 PM
I voted no (and ya Croz24, you have some company, though with
next year's draft likely kinda weak, it's unenthusiastic company).

If ATL and WASH stay together and healthy, they'll be in. It's gonna
take at least 40 wins next year.

Ramitt
07-09-2008, 06:10 PM
I figure they will slip in at the 8th spot and be one and done.

maragin
07-09-2008, 06:15 PM
I feel comfortable making this sort of prediction (W/L/Playoffs) near the end of the preseason.

My guess is no, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Gamble1
07-09-2008, 06:38 PM
I voted a shaky yes but since we are making predictions I will throw in this:
Elton Brand will go down in injury, JO will follow suit, Atlanta will regain its suckiness, Josh Smith will go to the west and Dirk will be traded after another horrible playoff appearnce.

Justin Tyme
07-09-2008, 07:02 PM
I guess no one thinks Chicago has much of a team, or will be very good this coming season since no one is picking them to make the playoffs..

317Kim
07-09-2008, 08:12 PM
It is a bit early, but what are sunshiners for?

I think we'll make it to the playoffs, but probably no higher than the 6th seed.

BoomBaby31
07-09-2008, 11:05 PM
If we stay healthy we have the 5th-6th seed on lock.

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 11:07 PM
...Dirk will be traded after another horrible playoff appearnce.

to the Pacers? :pray:

Dece
07-10-2008, 12:27 AM
The odds of us getting a 5th seed are as likely as me dying of a heart attack. All 5'6" 120 pounds of me, at the ripe old age of 22.

Barring some kind of cataclysmic injury to the other fringe teams, we will be on the outside looking in next year I think.

Plax80
07-10-2008, 01:01 AM
73% of this forum thinks we will make the playoffs ???

Wow.

Just Wow.

Our best player is a jump shooting small forward and our 2nd best is a pretty slow footed 2 guard who has some nice moves.

Our best interior player is Jeff Foster.

Our PG is 5-11 and can't shoot.

What exactly am I missing ??

Did we get Kobe and Gasol for Tinsley and Brandon over the holiday weekend ??

imawhat
07-10-2008, 01:50 AM
I don't think we'll make the playoffs. I feel like we've gotten marginally better, at best, while some other teams in the East have gotten quite a bit better. I think our glaring weakness will be too much to overcome.

I'm hoping we win 30 games, honestly. We'll see.

Jose Slaughter
07-10-2008, 03:12 AM
Boston, Phily, Cleveland, Detroit, Orlando & Washington should be locks, if everyone stays healthy.

Chicago should make it in. Last season was a fluke. With a new coach, quality assistants & Rose, they should be back fighting for the division title again.

That just leaves the 8th seed.

Atlanta, Toronto, Miami, New Jersey & Indy will be in the group looking at that last spot.

As of now my guess would be Atlanta or Miami gets it.

We get another solid pick & ending contracts to complete the rebuilding phase.

BlueNGold
07-10-2008, 07:24 AM
We came fairly close last year, so we're not that far off.

I think the addition of TJ Ford and Jarrett Jack are worth 5 more wins. I like Travis, but when he's your starting PG you suffer. Also, Rasho is an underrated addition. ...and I seriously doubt Maceo, Hibbert and Rush add LESS than Harrison and Ike. Hope they add much more, but even if not we will still be knocking on the last spot.

Also, better continuity overall because I expect less players sitting on the bench in $5000 suits...then coming in to disrupt the team. Neither JO nor Tinsley played much last year and even when JO did he was not good at all.

Yes, it will be close again this year...particularly with the Sixers getting Brand...but it's July and time to be optimistic...

Edit: Looking back at the standings, we were only one game short. No, we did not get a big name player but we clearly addressed several important holes with quality players. First, we addressed perimeter defense. I expect Rush, Jack and Ford to add a whole lot in that department. Second, we added size. I really, really hope that Hibbert is better than he's given credit for. I think a big body that plays smart is exactly what this team has needed for a long time. He has been well coached and will be able to bang with some of the players that always gave us trouble. Also, Rasho is light years better than David Harrison and Ike....who didn't even play. Combine this with the natural progression of Granger and Dunleavy and you have a better team. Remember, JO did not play well last year. His addition was more depth related than actually bringing a go-to guy in. Well, we got more depth so I doubt we lost much. ...and if Rush is good as advertised, we will be even that much better. I am excited about that guy's ability to relieve Granger on defense...and allowing Granger to play the SF position on defense. That gives Danny a better opportunity to block shots and rebound. I'm telling you, we will be much better...

Doddage
07-10-2008, 07:30 AM
It's true, we're not far off at all and we've already got a solid core in place.

With that said, a lot of other teams have gotten better and I don't think we're going to catch up. Injuries are inevitable, so we can't assume that there won't be.

aero
07-10-2008, 07:39 AM
i voted no because last year i voted yes...ahh well...yeah.

Unclebuck
07-10-2008, 09:00 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Bucks. With finally a good coach - who is in the short term a great coach - they will make the playoffs - in fact they probably will win 45 games or maybe a few more. A new coach will have a huge impact on that team that is just lacking some leadership from the sidelines and a little toughness and Skiles will do that.

rexnom
07-10-2008, 09:22 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned the Bucks. With finally a good coach - who is in the short term a great coach - they will make the playoffs - in fact they probably will win 45 games or maybe a few more. A new coach will have a huge impact on that team that is just lacking some leadership from the sidelines and a little toughness and Skiles will do that.
Don't forget the trade in which they stole RJ from the Nets.

Unclebuck
07-10-2008, 09:55 AM
Don't forget the trade in which they stole RJ from the Nets.

I assumed that went without saying. Redd and RJ should be an extremely tough tandem to deal with.

Hicks
07-10-2008, 11:15 AM
I assumed that went without saying. Redd and RJ should be an extremely tough tandem to deal with.

Well, NJ with Kidd, Carter, and Jefferson wasn't exactly setting the world on fire.

But Milwaukee has a better front court than New Jersey.

2minutes twowa
07-10-2008, 11:23 AM
Yep. The Pacers are going to have to put together a pretty special season to make it this year. The nice thing is we're rebuilding. So you strive for the playoffs, but Pacers fans won't :suicide3: if they don't make it.:D

BillS
07-10-2008, 11:32 AM
Yep. The Pacers are going to have to put together a pretty special season to make it this year. The nice thing is we're rebuilding. So you strive for the playoffs, but Pacers fans won't :suicide3: if they don't make it.:D

I think the key is going to be that the team plays hard at a fundamental level and has an objectively good record (.500). If that ends up not being good enough to make the playoffs, so be it.

Fans will not accept a season where we are in the cellar the entire year, nor will they accept a decision to give up on a tight playoff run in order to get a better draft pick.

However, I really think we are selling our own talent upgrade short. At minimum we've upgraded from a 3rd string PG to a starting PG, even if that starter isn't elite. We've cleared some of the logjam at SF with legitimate hope for both offense and defense at SG. We've lost some PF but he wasn't playing consistently anyway.

Unless everything done this offseason completely flops - in which case there will be bigger fish to fry - the Pacers themselves are not just slightly better but <i>significantly</i> better than last season.

Unclebuck
07-10-2008, 11:39 AM
Well, NJ with Kidd, Carter, and Jefferson wasn't exactly setting the world on fire.

But Milwaukee has a better front court than New Jersey.

True, but Kidd had lost his motivation, RJ was injured for a portion of the season. But if you were to put those thre together with the proper motivation, and Skiles as coach - they would be an excellent team. And Bogout is better than anything the Nets have.

Unclebuck
07-10-2008, 11:47 AM
Unless everything done this offseason completely flops - in which case there will be bigger fish to fry - the Pacers themselves are not just slightly better but <i>significantly</i> better than last season.

I would disagree. As much as I wanted JO to be traded and as much as everyone wants JT to be gotten rid of - they are both really talented players and they both did help the Pacers win games last season. In fact from mid November through mid December (Pacers were 3 games over .500 by moid December) Tinsley had played very well and I remember posting after several games that without Tinsley - the Pacers don't win this game.
Same thing with JO.

So it isn't like neither guy played at all last season. I think without either of them at all last season Pacers probably win 6 or 7 fewer games. And I'm taking into account the negative impact of having them in and out of the lineup.

So I think we are looking at a 30 win team - plus whatever the new guys will bring us

Hicks
07-10-2008, 11:54 AM
I think the key is going to be that the team plays hard at a fundamental level and has an objectively good record (.500). If that ends up not being good enough to make the playoffs, so be it.

Fans will not accept a season where we are in the cellar the entire year, nor will they accept a decision to give up on a tight playoff run in order to get a better draft pick.

However, I really think we are selling our own talent upgrade short. At minimum we've upgraded from a 3rd string PG to a starting PG, even if that starter isn't elite. We've cleared some of the logjam at SF with legitimate hope for both offense and defense at SG. We've lost some PF but he wasn't playing consistently anyway.

Unless everything done this offseason completely flops - in which case there will be bigger fish to fry - the Pacers themselves are not just slightly better but <i>significantly</i> better than last season.

I'm ever so cautiously leaning this way as well. But I've been burned before.

Jonathan
07-10-2008, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE=Isaac;755186]The East will be better this year than it was last year, and it will probably take 42 wins to get in. I think we will be in the battle for the 7 and 8 seeds with Milwaukee, Washington and Miami.

Boston, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland, Orlando and Toronto will be 1-6.


Washington will be Better Than Cleveland record wise this year.
I think Roger Mason will suprise a lot of people next year. They also have a strong core of Gil, Butler, & Jamison.

I like Lebron but he can only do so much by himself.

Ben Wallace is a year older as well. They got zero in the draft. The only way Cleveland has a better record is if they trade for Tinsley.

Bball
07-10-2008, 12:54 PM
I would disagree. As much as I wanted JO to be traded and as much as everyone wants JT to be gotten rid of - they are both really talented players and they both did help the Pacers win games last season. In fact from mid November through mid December (Pacers were 3 games over .500 by moid December) Tinsley had played very well and I remember posting after several games that without Tinsley - the Pacers don't win this game.
Same thing with JO.

So it isn't like neither guy played at all last season. I think without either of them at all last season Pacers probably win 6 or 7 fewer games. And I'm taking into account the negative impact of having them in and out of the lineup.

So I think we are looking at a 30 win team - plus whatever the new guys will bring us

But the Pacers also closed out the season with some strong wins and Tinsley was in his customary role in street clothes on the bench. They also had wins before JO returned, and when he did return it was in a limited role.

I'm not going to underestimate the value of having the team that plays together also practice together. Plus, ASSUMING we can find a functional rotation... and stick with it... it will pay long term dividends. We can't have players popping in and out of the rotation continuously for injury reasons and missing long stretches.

A lot will depend on how the players come together. The start to the season might doom us if the playoffs is your only goal. I think it's a good possibility we'll be feeling our way early and those losses might catch up with us in the end since there seems to be several teams focusing on that 8th spot (at least in theory). If we steal a few early wins, sneak up on some people, and keep on growing as a team... maybe we make the playoffs.

It's just too hard to say right now because we will be counting on some new faces and wondering if OBrien's "Spray and Pray" offense can grow some structure with those new faces... plus I'll be hoping to see our defense improve. It should... eventually. It HAS to sometime...

NuffSaid
07-10-2008, 01:03 PM
I think the most of you are under estimating the Pacers' chances of returning to the post-season this upcoming season. I think they'll make the playoffs and here's why:

1) Consistency at PG. Fact is, the Pacers didn't have a strong PG rotation last year. The hope was that Tinsley would play at least 70 good games and he'd keep his head on straight. Neither happened last year and the result was the Pacers had to go with "Point Guards by Committee". Of the 5 PGs used last year - Tinsley, Owens, Diener, Quis and Murray - only Owens and Diener were real PGs, but only Diener had any real significant PG experience. And while I thought Diener did fine last year, he isn't a very strong perimeter defender. Which leads me to the next area of improvement...

2) Improved defense at the "Point" of attack. No matter how you sliced it, this team didn't have a solid perimeter defender last year at the Point. Diener and Murray did a good job running the offense, but neither were very solid defenders at the Point. The addition of T.J. Ford and Jarod Jack will significantly improved defense at this position. Furthermore, both provide something else...

3) Increased ability to attack the basket, create shot opportunities and actually "finish" at the rim! Boy were these aspects lacking last year from the Point. Owens couldn't finish at the rim to save his life, and with the exception of Diener, most of our Guards either couldn't control the ball on lane penetration and committed way too many turnovers. Still further, except Diener, none could really create shots for themselves nor did they seem to understood the importance of creating contact to get to the line. Moreover, few could actually finish at the rim. This wasn't just a knock on Owens. Granger, K. Rush and sometimes even Dunleavy had a hard time finishing at the rim. I'm convinced that now with a trio of PGs who truly understand their role, Ford, Jack and Deiner will command alot more respect among our PGs than ever before. I truly believe we will see a difference in how well these three handle the responsibility far and above last year's group.

4) (Possible) Increased perimeter defense at the Wings. Danny Granger @ SF, Brandon Rush @ SG. Hopefully, Brandon's experience from Kansas will carry over into his NBA rookie debut. If so, consider a backcourt of Granger, Ford and B. Rush, all (perceived) strong 1-on-1 defenders who also understand team-oriented defense. So, no matter if the defense is for isolation play or a Zone, we've got it covered with these three.

5) Interior defense...? By all accounts, Hibbert has interior defense from Center on lock. (We shall see...) I'm concerned about the defensive capabilities of the Nesterovic, however; and the rest - Baston, Foster and Murphy - none really are shot blockers nor have the ability to force a player to alter their shot, but if all of these guys take lessons from Jeff and learn how to effectively box out and keep their man off the boards, we should be fine. If they can improve their off-the-ball defense that should trump their lack luster shot blocking ability (or atleast I'm hoping anyway).

6) Increased scoring output. 7th in the league last year in avg. points scored (104) and ALL of our most effective scorers are still here - Granger (19.6) , Dunleavy (19.1), and Murphy (12.1, but I expect his pt totals to increase this year because he's likely to see more playing time at PF than C). Add in Ford (12.1), and hopefully B. Rush or S. Williams can come in and avg. around 10-12 ppg, I see no reason this team couldn't come back and avg. 100+ ppg this year and decrease their opponent avg. ppg from 105 to a more reasonable 95-98 ppg.

A bit optimistic? Maybe...

But I like to think I'm being more realistic than optimistic. I still think that depending on where Brandon plays (I have him plugged in at SG, but he could end up playing at SF), the Pacers are a good B/U-SF or servicable veteran PF away from really being a solid basketball team, but I feel pretty good headed into next season with the projected starters having a good chance at making the post-season.

Arcadian
07-10-2008, 01:06 PM
I don't see us as a talented team. TJ, MDjr, and Danny are solid starters. Jack, Murphy and Jeff are rotation players. The rest are unproven or what they have proved isn't that great.

Outside of our pg position I think our moves are nominal. I don't expect late lottery/mid round rookies to come in and contribute. We were a bad team last year.

Unclebuck
07-10-2008, 01:09 PM
But the Pacers also closed out the season with some strong wins and Tinsley was in his customary role in street clothes on the bench. They also had wins before JO returned, and when he did return it was in a limited role.

I'm not going to underestimate the value of having the team that plays together also practice together. Plus, ASSUMING we can find a functional rotation... and stick with it... it will pay long term dividends. We can't have players popping in and out of the rotation continuously for injury reasons and missing long stretches.

A lot will depend on how the players come together. The start to the season might doom us if the playoffs is your only goal. I think it's a good possibility we'll be feeling our way early and those losses might catch up with us in the end since there seems to be several teams focusing on that 8th spot (at least in theory). If we steal a few early wins, sneak up on some people, and keep on growing as a team... maybe we make the playoffs.

It's just too hard to say right now because we will be counting on some new faces and wondering if OBrien's "Spray and Pray" offense can grow some structure with those new faces... plus I'll be hoping to see our defense improve. It should... eventually. It HAS to sometime...

Wait just a minute. Ladies and gentlemen, we might have a first here. Bball is more positive than I am. Why fight it, OK Bball, you have me convinced - you make some excellent points

idioteque
07-10-2008, 01:11 PM
This team has improved somewhat in the offseason but we're not going to be a finished product until we lose the expirings and gain whatever Bird is looking to gain off of those.

We're still a "work in progress" IMHO. Playoffs should not be expected until at least next year, more realistically the year after next.

2minutes twowa
07-10-2008, 02:10 PM
I agree that the team has improved, but the question is "Will the Pacers make the playoffs?" I believe they have a great chance to finish above .500. Unfortunately, I think it's gonna take 48-50+ wins to make it because of the improvements of other teams. I say they finish around 46-36, just missing the playoffs.

DisplacedKnick
07-10-2008, 02:19 PM
I don't think the playoffs are realistic this season.

You're a team with a sub-par talent level which will have new starters in at least 2 positions. You don't have an all-star on your roster or anyone who's likely to be an all-star. And while you'd hope your defense will improve, if you add two rookies to the rotation there's not much reason to expect it will.

You made some very positive moves this offseason and I think it will payoff down the road but for this year you're a team with questionable defense that will have to score off jump shots. You don't have a post presence and while TJ can somewhat break down a defense, it's isn't 20-pt scoring breaking down of defenses.

OTOH, you have a shot at it. Maybe Granger raises his game yet another level and Hibbert is one of those one out of ten rookies who can play effective defense his first year. I just don't think the odds are with you this season, especially with the improvement some other teams made.

Lord Helmet
07-10-2008, 02:25 PM
I think we'll be in the hunt like we were last year, and if everything works out and we mesh as a team, the playoffs in the East are possible.

Not getting my hopes up, as I certainly don't expect it.

BillS
07-10-2008, 02:29 PM
I would disagree. As much as I wanted JO to be traded and as much as everyone wants JT to be gotten rid of - they are both really talented players and they both did help the Pacers win games last season. In fact from mid November through mid December (Pacers were 3 games over .500 by moid December) Tinsley had played very well and I remember posting after several games that without Tinsley - the Pacers don't win this game.
Same thing with JO.

So it isn't like neither guy played at all last season. I think without either of them at all last season Pacers probably win 6 or 7 fewer games. And I'm taking into account the negative impact of having them in and out of the lineup.

I think it either evens out or in fact the number of wins goes up because the new season wins due to improved PGs actually on the floor will outweigh the losses from games it took Tinsley's skill to win.

Same with JO games.


Wait just a minute. Ladies and gentlemen, we might have a first here. Bball is more positive than I am. Why fight it, OK Bball, you have me convinced - you make some excellent points

And I'm agreeing with bball. Somehow, I feel... dirty... :borg:

Young
07-10-2008, 02:32 PM
Its very early to tell what this team can do.

Have we improved? IDK that we have. We will be better for the future but did we become better by trading Jermaine? I don't think this season.

As already pointed out we don't have an all star although Danny and Mike are close to that level nor do we have a good post presence.

Brandon and Roy might be able to come in and contribute but I wouldn't count on them to. At least not for big minutes.

What it will come down to is team chemistry. If that is there then we can win some ball games, at least 41, but if its not then we are in trouble.

Its hard to say too because there are bubble teams like Atlanta who may lose Josh Smith or Childress, the Bucks added Richard Jefferson, how will the Bulls respond to a new coach and what moves will they make?

The Pacers will have a chance to be in the mix but I don't think I can sit here and say that I expect this team to make the playoffs. At least not yet.

Arcadian
07-10-2008, 02:39 PM
Just because you got burned dating girls because they were hot doesn't mean you start dating ugly girls. It means you take in account of their character rather than disregard their looks.

I think people are overvaluing our "character." It still takes talent to win in this league and we don't have much of it. I'm glad that we are going after good guys. I'm looking forward to see some of these guys develop. But our team isn't that good this year.

Plax80
07-10-2008, 03:53 PM
I think the most of you are under estimating the Pacers' chances of returning to the post-season this upcoming season. I think they'll make the playoffs and here's why:

1) Consistency at PG. Fact is, the Pacers didn't have a strong PG rotation last year. The hope was that Tinsley would play at least 70 good games and he'd keep his head on straight. Neither happened last year and the result was the Pacers had to go with "Point Guards by Committee". Of the 5 PGs used last year - Tinsley, Owens, Diener, Quis and Murray - only Owens and Diener were real PGs, but only Diener had any real significant PG experience. And while I thought Diener did fine last year, he isn't a very strong perimeter defender. Which leads me to the next area of improvement...

2) Improved defense at the "Point" of attack. No matter how you sliced it, this team didn't have a solid perimeter defender last year at the Point. Diener and Murray did a good job running the offense, but neither were very solid defenders at the Point. The addition of T.J. Ford and Jarod Jack will significantly improved defense at this position. Furthermore, both provide something else...

3) Increased ability to attack the basket, create shot opportunities and actually "finish" at the rim! Boy were these aspects lacking last year from the Point. Owens couldn't finish at the rim to save his life, and with the exception of Diener, most of our Guards either couldn't control the ball on lane penetration and committed way too many turnovers. Still further, except Diener, none could really create shots for themselves nor did they seem to understood the importance of creating contact to get to the line. Moreover, few could actually finish at the rim. This wasn't just a knock on Owens. Granger, K. Rush and sometimes even Dunleavy had a hard time finishing at the rim. I'm convinced that now with a trio of PGs who truly understand their role, Ford, Jack and Deiner will command alot more respect among our PGs than ever before. I truly believe we will see a difference in how well these three handle the responsibility far and above last year's group.

4) (Possible) Increased perimeter defense at the Wings. Danny Granger @ SF, Brandon Rush @ SG. Hopefully, Brandon's experience from Kansas will carry over into his NBA rookie debut. If so, consider a backcourt of Granger, Ford and B. Rush, all (perceived) strong 1-on-1 defenders who also understand team-oriented defense. So, no matter if the defense is for isolation play or a Zone, we've got it covered with these three.

5) Interior defense...? By all accounts, Hibbert has interior defense from Center on lock. (We shall see...) I'm concerned about the defensive capabilities of the Nesterovic, however; and the rest - Baston, Foster and Murphy - none really are shot blockers nor have the ability to force a player to alter their shot, but if all of these guys take lessons from Jeff and learn how to effectively box out and keep their man off the boards, we should be fine. If they can improve their off-the-ball defense that should trump their lack luster shot blocking ability (or atleast I'm hoping anyway).

6) Increased scoring output. 7th in the league last year in avg. points scored (104) and ALL of our most effective scorers are still here - Granger (19.6) , Dunleavy (19.1), and Murphy (12.1, but I expect his pt totals to increase this year because he's likely to see more playing time at PF than C). Add in Ford (12.1), and hopefully B. Rush or S. Williams can come in and avg. around 10-12 ppg, I see no reason this team couldn't come back and avg. 100+ ppg this year and decrease their opponent avg. ppg from 105 to a more reasonable 95-98 ppg.

A bit optimistic? Maybe...

But I like to think I'm being more realistic than optimistic. I still think that depending on where Brandon plays (I have him plugged in at SG, but he could end up playing at SF), the Pacers are a good B/U-SF or servicable veteran PF away from really being a solid basketball team, but I feel pretty good headed into next season with the projected starters having a good chance at making the post-season.


I love the optimism and as a life long pacer and Pirate fan I'm used to having to "grasp at straws" to find optimism where others see garbage.

but lets be honest:

1. when you arguably the 29th best roster in a 30 team league.....making the playoffs is pretty far-fetched.........Red Auerbach in his prime would struggle mightily to get it done.

2. When the teams you are in competition with at the #7-#15 level of the Eastern Conference have all significantly improved by adding names liek Brand, Rose, Beasley, Augustin, Jefferson, Lopez, O'neal, Bibby and others........we've added a castoff 5-11 PG who can't shoot and a lumbering 7-2 guy that no one else was all that interested in and a role player in college who can't create his own shot at a position dominated with stars that can and also at a position(s) that happen to be our only strength ??

to give you an idea of what that players worth might be........look no further than what Philly did with a similiar player........

Rodney carney and a future #1 for...........a bag of popcorn.

good corn is always a nice thing, I'd agree but i'm not sure how it equates to making a playoff run.

Hicks
07-10-2008, 03:58 PM
How did we finish 9th in the conference with the 2nd to worst roster last year?

maragin
07-10-2008, 04:32 PM
How did we finish 9th in the conference with the 2nd to worst roster last year?

It doesn't explain the whole thing, but it was obvious that some teams in our conference were tanking. Some as early as December.

Roster strength doesn't equate to wins. It's one of many factors that contribute to the end product. With a small sample size, statistical clustering is rampant.

I'm truly looking forward to the strength of our roster at the beginning of next season. I see this one as a warm up.

BlueNGold
07-10-2008, 04:42 PM
How did we finish 9th in the conference with the 2nd to worst roster last year?

We missed the playoffs by one, single game. I understand the views here because some of the teams improved, but I get the sense people underestimate what we accomplished.

The continuity factor alone will be huge for us. There is also some leadership finally with TJ Ford coming aboard. The defense will be significantly better. The offense last year was fine and Dunleavy and Granger will be back better than ever. We have size now. We picked up several experienced veterans in Rasho, Ford and Jack. We have some shotblocking with Baston and Hibbert.

Yes, Chicago got Rose and Miami got Beasley. However, both of those players will be rookies. Rose has not been that impressive so far. Miami has DWade and Beasley, but they are not a great team and have a number of issues themselves. It will undoubtedly be difficult to get in next year, but I think the nature of our changes addressed most of the gaping holes. It was truly impressive. Yes, it is July...

pianoman
07-10-2008, 04:44 PM
I am an optimist, but I try to be realistic. I think we will definately be in the playoffs if we stay healthy. Obviously you're gonna have

1.Boston
2.Philly
3.Orlando
4.Detroit
5.washington(if healthy)
6.Cavs
7.Milwaulkee
8.Miami
9.Toronto
10.Atlanta
11.Chicago



all 11 of those teams should be in the mix. Chicago still won't be that great. even with the addition of rose, i don't think they will be as good as people are predicting. Atlanta won't be as great as last year, but still have youth. toronto got JO, yet they weakened their bench. Who's the b/u pg for them now? Its just gonna come down to healt and depth for them. I think with the addition of beasley, they should be a better team this year. Milwaulkee is much better. Cleveland isn't all that great besides lebron and gibson. If Lebron were to have a serious ankle injury,again, that puts him out for a while, I can't imagine them in the playoffs.
Washington is gonna be good if they stay healthy. they are a pretty exciting team when they are healthy. Detroit is on the decline I believe. I may be wrong, I'm just saying, I don't think they are gonna be as good as they have been. But they will win the central division again.
Orlando will be right up there and will be tough to beat. Philly is gonna have a great season. Near the end of last year, they played some great ball. even against the Celtics. They will be dangerous. And Finally Boston. What more to say. They are still going to be the dominant team in the east.

But the pacers held in there to the end but just didn't get over the hump. This year they will actually have more players who defend, a REAL pg, a TRUE center...no wait...2 TRUE centers, and a very decent draft pick in rush. I think this is the "dark horse" Indiana team Barkley was talking about a few years ago! (once again, i am a sunshiner)

Plax80
07-10-2008, 07:21 PM
How did we finish 9th in the conference with the 2nd to worst roster last year?


Because we won a ton of meaningless games in April while other bad teams were positioning themselves for the future.

name me the team that swaps rosters with us besides the Knicks ??

there isn't one.

duke dynamite
07-10-2008, 07:27 PM
Because we won a ton of meaningless games in April while other bad teams were positioning themselves for the future.

name me the team that swaps rosters with us besides the Knicks ??

there isn't one.

Tanking? Are we still on this? Ugh...

I really don't feel like we did anything wrong in April other than us losing games we needed to win.

What we just did with the draft and trades, I don't think it could have gone any better with a higher lottery pick.

Plax80
07-10-2008, 07:32 PM
We missed the playoffs by one, single game. I understand the views here because some of the teams improved, but I get the sense people underestimate what we accomplished.

The continuity factor alone will be huge for us. There is also some leadership finally with TJ Ford coming aboard. The defense will be significantly better. The offense last year was fine and Dunleavy and Granger will be back better than ever. We have size now. We picked up several experienced veterans in Rasho, Ford and Jack. We have some shotblocking with Baston and Hibbert.

Yes, Chicago got Rose and Miami got Beasley. However, both of those players will be rookies. Rose has not been that impressive so far. Miami has DWade and Beasley, but they are not a great team and have a number of issues themselves. It will undoubtedly be difficult to get in next year, but I think the nature of our changes addressed most of the gaping holes. It was truly impressive. Yes, it is July...

Would Miami trade Wade and beasley and Marion for anybody on our roster ??

NO.

Would you ??

NO.

How can we be better than Miami when they have three players all better than anybody on our team ??

Atlanta:

Johnson
Horford
Smith

all better than Granger or Dun

Philly:

iggy
Brand

Wash:

Agent 0
Butler
jamison

all better than Granger

Chi:

Rose
Deng
Gordon

all better

Milw:
Jefferson (you could argue)
Redd
Bogut ( you could argue)

all better

Tor:

Bosh
JO (I know...you can argue)
calderon

all better

Char:
Okafor
wallace ( you can argue)
J Rich ( you can argue)

all better

New Jer:

harris
Vince
lopez
kristic

you can argue Jersey a little bit but they aren't trading entire rosters.

the rest:

orlando
detriot
boston
Cleveland

not close.

So out of 15 teams.......you might argue that Jersey or Charlotte have about the same talent level..........although I think Charlotte has much more overall talent 1-8. And Jersey has some bigs with upside ......which we don't............and a nice PG with size who can shoot.........we have one who is small and who can't shoot.

Lots of Luck JOB

Plax80
07-10-2008, 07:35 PM
Tanking? Are we still on this? Ugh...

I really don't feel like we did anything wrong in April other than us losing games we needed to win.

What we just did with the draft and trades, I don't think it could have gone any better with a higher lottery pick.


yeah- i'm shocked Brandon rush was still on the board at 11.......he was on everybody's radar in the top 5. 6-6 guys who can make wide open jumpers are very hard to find

duke dynamite
07-10-2008, 07:37 PM
My point is that tanking doesn't always get you where you want. Chicago is a great example. They were in the lottery, but were never slated to get the #1 pick.

I really think that tanking is cheap and classless.

All you need are some decent moves (easier said than done) and a little luck.

Plax80
07-10-2008, 07:45 PM
My point is that tanking doesn't always get you where you want. Chicago is a great example. They were in the lottery, but were never slated to get the #1 pick.

I really think that tanking is cheap and classless.

All you need are some decent moves (easier said than done) and a little luck.

I don't really disagree with that but he asked the question about how we almost made the playoffs..........and thats the answer. We won a lot of games late in the season where we cared much more about winning than our opponent did.

duke dynamite
07-10-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't really disagree with that but he asked the question about how we almost made the playoffs..........and thats the answer. We won a lot of games late in the season where we cared much more about winning than our opponent did.
There is never anything wrong with winning. :p

AesopRockOn
07-10-2008, 08:24 PM
No hesitation.

Roaming Gnome
07-10-2008, 10:30 PM
Because we won a ton of meaningless games in April while other bad teams were positioning themselves for the future.



:bs:
Come on, there is no way that all the teams we passed in the conf. standings were tanking.

No way. That is a strech, at best.

I don't think that we have enough parts to make the play-offs this year, but there is no way that I'm buying the notion that we have the 29th best roster in the league.

BlueNGold
07-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Would Miami trade Wade and beasley and Marion for anybody on our roster ??
<SNIP>
Horford
iggy
jamison
Rose
Gordon
Jefferson (you could argue)
Bogut ( you could argue)
JO (I know...you can argue)
calderon
Okafor
wallace ( you can argue)
J Rich ( you can argue)
harris
lopez
kristic


I think most of these players are less valuable than Granger. I think half of them are about as good as Dunleavy. Good Lord, some of those players are injury riddled and don't even play. Gordon, Okafor, Horford, J Rich...J Rich?...are you kidding?...he can't guard my mother. Gordon can't guard my grand mother! There's no question Granger is more valued by the league than at least half of those players. BTW, not saying Granger is a great franchise player, but neither is J Rich. Ridiculous!

As for Miami, yes there is a lot of talent there. However, I don't see the pieces on their roster to make much noise. They have two excellent small forwards and a great shooting guard. I suppose Beasley and Marion will play at the same time, but who plays the point for them? Who is their center? Small ball only works in the movies. How do you know how that team will mesh? The truth is, Shaq and Mourning were a big part of Miami's past success. DWade and a couple tweeners in the front court are not going to get it done.

Anthem
07-10-2008, 10:52 PM
Just because you got burned dating girls because they were hot doesn't mean you start dating ugly girls.
Best analogy ever.


I mean it, man. That's gold.

wintermute
07-10-2008, 11:10 PM
i voted yes but i agree that it is far from a sure thing.

i look at philly's team last year as a role model for our squad. they weren't the most talented, but inspired play from their veteran pg, and solid effort all around seems to have gotten the most out of their limited talent. of course with brand this year talent will be less of a problem for philly...

oh and i like arcadian's comment too, and agree with it

Plax80
07-10-2008, 11:14 PM
I think most of these players are less valuable than Granger. I think half of them are about as good as Dunleavy. Good Lord, some of those players are injury riddled and don't even play. Gordon, Okafor, Horford, J Rich...J Rich?...are you kidding?...he can't guard my mother. Gordon can't guard my grand mother! There's no question Granger is more valued by the league than at least half of those players. BTW, not saying Granger is a great franchise player, but neither is J Rich. Ridiculous!

As for Miami, yes there is a lot of talent there. However, I don't see the pieces on their roster to make much noise. They have two excellent small forwards and a great shooting guard. I suppose Beasley and Marion will play at the same time, but who plays the point for them? Who is their center? Small ball only works in the movies. How do you know how that team will mesh? The truth is, Shaq and Mourning were a big part of Miami's past success. DWade and a couple tweeners in the front court are not going to get it done.

1. i didn't say we had the 29th best team. I said we had the 29th best roster.

2. JRich is Charlotte's 3rd or 4th best player. Okafor is their franchise player and Wallace is next. Between Augustin and Felton they likely get better PG play than us as well and they have Morrison on the bench although he's not my favorite player.

3. I never said Miami was winning a championship but Marion has played a lot of 4 in his career (most of it in fact) and probbaly fares okay against Troy Murphy on the boards.

4. half of those players have less value than Granger. That's a joke. I mentioned th eones you can argue. The others aren't even close. You think Chicago trades Deng or Gordon for Granger based on talent and not contracts??

No way. And I didn't even get to Hinrich, nocioni, thabo, gooden, Noah or Thomas.

Its one thing to root for your team, and I'm on board as soon as the season starts......but this team is in dire need of a true superstar in the paint. If Granger and Dunleavy are your two best players..........you aren't making the playoffs.......I'm sorry.

BlueNGold
07-10-2008, 11:33 PM
1. i didn't say we had the 29th best team. I said we had the 29th best roster.

2. JRich is Charlotte's 3rd or 4th best player. Okafor is their franchise player and Wallace is next. Between Augustin and Felton they likely get better PG play than us as well and they have Morrison on the bench although he's not my favorite player.

3. I never said Miami was winning a championship but Marion has played a lot of 4 in his career (most of it in fact) and probbaly fares okay against Troy Murphy on the boards.

4. half of those players have less value than Granger. That's a joke. I mentioned th eones you can argue. The others aren't even close. You think Chicago trades Deng or Gordon for Granger based on talent and not contracts??

No way. And I didn't even get to Hinrich, nocioni, thabo, gooden, Noah or Thomas.

Its one thing to root for your team, and I'm on board as soon as the season starts......but this team is in dire need of a true superstar in the paint. If Granger and Dunleavy are your two best players..........you aren't making the playoffs.......I'm sorry.

We had no superstar in the paint last year and came one game from making the playoffs. JO was an empty shell...

We just made MAJOR upgrades to the back court. We just added several SEASONED players in TJ Ford, Rasho and Jack. This is not relying on some hope or dream that a rookie will produce in the NBA. We KNOW they will produce. ...oh, and if rookies can get it done, we did just pick up the top pick from the NCAA champions....a guy that reportedly knows how to defend the perimeter...an area we are particularly weak at. Secondly, having the best talent is not necessarily how you get to the playoffs as an 8 seed. I think a solid team that has continuity, plays together, likes playing together...that also has a fair share of talent can get there. I think that describes this squad.

BTW, there is no question Granger is more valued than Ben Gordon....and it's not close. Ben is an explosive offensive player but has soooo many other holes in his game it's not funny. Yes, Deng is better than any Pacer but no other Bull is....and Deng is not that much better than Granger at this point. As for the other players you list, from Chicago, they are not that good. I would put Foster up against any of them. Also, I seriously doubt Rose as a rookie will be a better PG than TJ Ford. In fact, I expect TJ to have a better year. You say Calderon is a great player....well Ford is not far removed. In fact, in some ways TJ is better....and if he stays healthy he probably is better.

I understand the views, but have to say I'm a bit surprised with the negativity on this board. That's ok. That's why we have these discussions. Usually I am the one holding the Negative Nellie banner, but I see the pieces on this team fitting together pretty well.

MyFavMartin
07-10-2008, 11:50 PM
There's a huge question mark about our front court. Yeah, we could have Foster at PF who provides the defense, but who contributes little on the offensive end of the court. Or go with Murphy at PF who can provide offense but whose defense is horrible. Or we go with Shawne whose natural position is SF and we would go through his growing pains at PF.

We're set at C with Rasho and Roy and Foster will provide some support there as well.


Ford, Dun, and Granger with Jack and Rush will be a good perimeter group.


Huge opportunity for Shawne this year.

Bball
07-11-2008, 12:01 AM
Gordon can't guard my grandmother!

Is she available for Summer league play? Has her agent contacted the Pacers?

-Bball

BlueNGold
07-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Huge opportunity for Shawne this year.

Agreed. If Shawne takes advantage of this opportunity and plays well at PF, it will be a huge deal. Hopefully he's been eating lots of steak and working out...;)

Bball
07-11-2008, 12:03 AM
I understand the views, but have to say I'm a bit surprised with the negativity on this board. That's ok. That's why we have these discussions. Usually I am the one holding the Negative Nellie banner, but I see the pieces on this team fitting together pretty well.

It feels odd to be on this side of the fence doesn't it?

-Bball

BlueNGold
07-11-2008, 12:03 AM
Is she available for Summer league play? Has her agent contacted the Pacers?

-Bball

She followed Jennings over to Europe. Dunked on him yesterday in fact...

BlueNGold
07-11-2008, 12:06 AM
It feels odd to be on this side of the fence doesn't it?

-Bball

Yes it does. I never wanted to be a Debbie Downer though. I just call it as I see it. No, I don't expect this team to contend but the pieces and parts fit together so much better, even if they're not genuine GM parts. I don't think it takes a tremendous amount to slip into the 8 slot for a team that really likes playing together. I'm excited about this season and hopeful these guys like the game. It's time to get back to that...

Edit: One other point. Those who see Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley for the disruptive players they are, cannot help but be optimistic. Maybe I am a bit too pleased they will no longer show their faces on the court...as Pacers. Maybe bordering on irrational. In any event, whether I am irrational I could care less...because I am very, very happy....:<)))

Infinite MAN_force
07-11-2008, 01:27 AM
People are undervaluing TJ Ford to the point that it is rediculous.

last year's projected Hollinger Efficiency Ratings for PGs.

1. Chris Paul
2. Chauncy Billups
3. Steve Nash
4. Deron Williams
5. Jose Calderon
6. TJ Ford
7. Tony Parker
8. Baron Davis
9. Monta Ellis
10. Andre Miller
11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Devin Harris
.
.
.
35. Jammal Tinsley


People look at the numbers and not the minutes. Calderon and Ford split time 24 minutes a piece.

Ford per 36 = 17.6 points, 9 assists, 2.8 rebounds, 1.5 steals. He also shot 47% from the field and is lightning quick, which also means he can defend the quick PGs in the league.

His impact is going to be significant.

duke dynamite
07-11-2008, 08:15 AM
I'm not going to be quick to jump on saying whether or not Ford is a bust, I will wait until preseason to make a more un-biased prediction.

I will say though, I am very excited he is with us.

TJ Ford has actually been highly underrated by a lot of the members here. When he is not injured he is a strong defensive force, he can move the ball with a lot of finesse, and has a great basketball I.Q.

TJ Ford is the booster shot this team needed at the starting 1 guard spot. Hey may or may not be they key to making the playoffs, but he will provide a nice boost in team morale, and help this team win some games.

Plax80
07-11-2008, 08:26 AM
Agreed. If Shawne takes advantage of this opportunity and plays well at PF, it will be a huge deal. Hopefully he's been eating lots of steak and working out...;)

He's the one guy I'm excited about going forward playing at the 4.

I think he has the ability to be a huge player for us.

Everybody wants to tell me how great Brandon rush and TJ Ford are.......I guess I hope they are right but I don't see it myself. Ford is on his 3rd team being traded for Villanueva the 1st time and now getting pushed out the door by Calderon after having a pathetic series against Jameer Nelson.

This business about per 36 minute stats..........Tinsley had some impressive stats per 36 and if you never actually saw him play, you might think he was an above average PG based on his stats.

Brandon rush never struck me as being one of the two or three best players on his COLLEGE team so why should I expect him to be one of the best on a pro team ??

His brother was a MUCH better college player and never did anything in the pros.

Hibbert I think was a good pick at 17.........a boom or bust roll of the dice but all I know is that his team won games with him at Center. Whether that translates to the faster pro game and whether or not he's athletic enough to keep the athlete's he's fcaing off the glass.........I don't know.......we shall see.

Shawne has more athletic ability than anyone else on our team including Granger.....so getting him on the floor especially in a rebuilding year is vital.

Hicks
07-11-2008, 10:00 AM
Pathetic against Nelson? Didn't Calderon have nearly the same stats as Ford in that series? So he's pathetic too?

Also, keep in mind he was the big piece in Toronto landing Jermaine O'Neal, who they wouldn't want if they expected him to be flat, so that says something to me as well about Ford's quality.

As for Rush, ever hear of a balanced, quality team? Oh wait, they didn't win the NCAA Championship. I was just spacing out in March. Oh, and the only two players competing with him for the best on that team were drafted in the second round.

carpediem024
07-11-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't think Washington and New Jersey will be good, giving Indiana a chance to get in.

Will Galen
07-11-2008, 01:51 PM
73% of this forum thinks we will make the playoffs ???

Wow.

Just Wow.

Our best player is a jump shooting small forward and our 2nd best is a pretty slow footed 2 guard who has some nice moves.

Our best interior player is Jeff Foster.

Our PG is 5-11 and can't shoot.

What exactly am I missing ??

Did we get Kobe and Gasol for Tinsley and Brandon over the holiday weekend ??

You, and 27% of the forum are missing the fact that other than the point guard the usual starting lineup is returning and it scored 103 points per game last year. We gave up 105 points last year mainly do to inferior point guard defense. That will no longer be a problem.

Thus I see us right now as a middle of the pack team, finishing 4th, 5th, or 6st. Depending on realtively good health of course.

Plax80
07-11-2008, 02:24 PM
You, and 27% of the forum are missing the fact that other than the point guard the usual starting lineup is returning and it scored 103 points per game last year. We gave up 105 points last year mainly do to inferior point guard defense. That will no longer be a problem.

Thus I see us right now as a middle of the pack team, finishing 4th, 5th, or 6st. Depending on realtively good health of course.

I'm not rooting against us.

I hope the 73% are right.

But there are six teams that are head and shoulders better than us:

orlando
detriot
Cleveland
boston
Toronto
Atlanta

then there are two playoff teams that are better:

washington
philadelphia

then you have two teams that were in the ECSF and NBA Champs within teh past two years who just happenned to grab the #1 and #2 overall players in a two player draft:

Miami
Chicago

That leaves five teams:

the Knicks we'll throw out but I think they can win 30+ games under D'Antoni

Charlotte:
much better roster and Larry brown coaching

Milwaukee:
much better roster and Scott Skiles coaching

Jersey:
This one is debatable............but I still like Vince, Harris, Yi, kristic and their 3 or 4 ist rd bigs from teh past few drafts betetr than our roster.

So if I give you that we will win more games than Jersey or the Knicks.........who else is winning fewer games in the East ??

And other than the Kings, Clips, Griz, and Sonics.........everybody in the West is MUCH better than us.

That means we are playing about 70 games or more against teams with better players............

happy Days R here Again...................

Barack and Brandon Rush coming to save us all

JayRedd
07-11-2008, 04:29 PM
For the record, Washington hasn't finished below .500 in four seasons and has the same roster as the last two years, only with Blatche, Mason and Nick Young all being more experienced.

There is zero chance they miss the Playoffs, barring injuries.

And even Hibachi missing 70 games and Caron missing 25 didn't stop them last year.

Infinite MAN_force
07-11-2008, 06:23 PM
I'm not rooting against us.

I hope the 73% are right.

But there are six teams that are head and shoulders better than us:

orlando
detriot
Cleveland
boston
Toronto
Atlanta

then there are two playoff teams that are better:

washington
philadelphia






I take issue with the idea that Atlanta is "head and shoulders ahead of us"

Why? cause they matched up well against the celtics? eh, it was the first round and they caught em sleeping. They only won one more game than us, and we beat them 2 out of 3 in the regular season.

That includes a game toward the last week of the season, when we were still battleing them for a playoff spot and every game was critical, when we absolutley smashed them.

Philly was better last year, and now with Brand, they are way better. swap those two teams for sure, than I might agree with your top 6. However, after that, I think it is wide open, and that includes washington and Atlanta.

Naptown_Seth
07-11-2008, 07:31 PM
I said no but the East is so weak that you never know. I don't think the team will be awful, just that things are still being adjusted.

YoSoyIndy
07-11-2008, 07:32 PM
Agreed. If Shawne takes advantage of this opportunity and plays well at PF, it will be a huge deal. Hopefully he's been eating lots of steak and working out...;)

Shawne just isn't there mentally. You don't have to be a genius to play sports, but you at least have to have an average amount of intelligence.

Naptown_Seth
07-11-2008, 07:33 PM
Best analogy ever.


I mean it, man. That's gold.
Arcadian needs to back it up with photographic proof. ;)

AesopRockOn
07-11-2008, 08:11 PM
1. Celts
2. Pistons
3. Heat
4. Cavs
5. Orlando
6. Toronto
7. Washington
8. Atlanta
9. Philly

Those nine teams all have business being in the playoffs. We're more in the Nets, B'Cats, Bucks, Knicks territory. Also, I don't think any non-Pacer fans believe that Indy falls into that group. I don't think we have a chance to make the playoffs. It sucks but that's why we were supposed to draft some talented players for the future.

Plax80
07-11-2008, 09:17 PM
I take issue with the idea that Atlanta is "head and shoulders ahead of us"

Why? cause they matched up well against the celtics? eh, it was the first round and they caught em sleeping. They only won one more game than us, and we beat them 2 out of 3 in the regular season.

That includes a game toward the last week of the season, when we were still battleing them for a playoff spot and every game was critical, when we absolutley smashed them.

Philly was better last year, and now with Brand, they are way better. swap those two teams for sure, than I might agree with your top 6. However, after that, I think it is wide open, and that includes washington and Atlanta.

Atlanta's roster is loaded with talented young players who started learning how to win like we first did when reggie and Smits were here.

Joe Johnson is a top 10 player in the league. Horford is a beast. Josh Smith is a beast.

Childress and Marvin williams are both rising young stars.

Bibby is a solid vet.

Pachula is a solid role player.

Law is a rising young PG.

we're not even in the same ballpark with Atlanta talent wise and now they have confidence off of last year.

Plax80
07-11-2008, 09:23 PM
1. Celts
2. Pistons
3. Heat
4. Cavs
5. Orlando
6. Toronto
7. Washington
8. Atlanta
9. Philly

Those nine teams all have business being in the playoffs. We're more in the Nets, B'Cats, Bucks, Knicks territory. Also, I don't think any non-Pacer fans believe that Indy falls into that group. I don't think we have a chance to make the playoffs. It sucks but that's why we were supposed to draft some talented players for the future.

My order is:
1. Boston
2. Cleveland (only because leBron is so much better than any other player)
3. Toronto
4. Atlanta
5. Miami
6. Detriot
7. Philadelphia
8. Chicago
9. Charlotte
10. Orlando
11. washington

All Good Teams with 44+ wins

Then the rest:
12. Milwaukee
13.. jersey
14. Knicks
15. indiana

And hopefully we get the #1 pick next year in the lottery

Hicks
07-11-2008, 09:33 PM
Atlanta is not that good, and that's if Josh Smith were staying. Not that they're horrible or anything, but LAST YEAR's Pacers beat them 2 out of 3. This year's team has a better roster than last year. As for having us 15th in the East, good luck with that. :rolleyes:

BlueNGold
07-11-2008, 09:50 PM
Atlanta is not that good, and that's if Josh Smith were staying. Not that they're horrible or anything, but LAST YEAR's Pacers beat them 2 out of 3. This year's team has a better roster than last year. As for having us 15th in the East, good luck with that. :rolleyes:

We couldn't get 15th in the east if we tried. In fact, that's what I wanted last year and even with Andre Owens and Diener holding down PG, we couldn't get it done. Not sure how anyone could conclude after such a major upgrade at PG that we would sink to the bottom of the division. Combine this with the fact Rasho is an experienced legit C who will be a good match with Foster considering he has a solid midrange game, we shored up the C position too. 90% of our players are young or entering their prime years. There will be some nice surprises.

It's funny how many of the sunshiners have swapped chairs with the dark siders...at least in some cases. I hope you all see the sun rising finally after all these years...

DisplacedKnick
07-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Atlanta is not that good, and that's if Josh Smith were staying. Not that they're horrible or anything, but LAST YEAR's Pacers beat them 2 out of 3. This year's team has a better roster than last year. As for having us 15th in the East, good luck with that. :rolleyes:

Atlanta should be MUCH better than the Pacers, even if Smith leaves. I'm not sure how anyone can look at how that team played after Bibby arrived (at least after their initial adjustment - I think they lost something like 5 of the first 6 games he was there) and say they'll do anything but have a far better record this year - I'd be surprised if they win less than 45 games this year if they stay healthy. They may win 50. And they may be just as good without Smith as with him. With Horford, JJ and Bibby they have plenty of scoring. Getting rid of an erratic player who can be a big distraction may end up helping them.

Arcadian
07-11-2008, 10:41 PM
Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Orlando, Miami, Washington, Atlanta, Philly, Toronto are the teams I have ahead of us. Mil and Chicago are in the mix. I hope we make it but I don't see it. The East is going to be a lot better this year.

I'm glad that posters are excited about the team. I'm thrilled Indianapolis may not hate the Pacers anymore. I looking forward to seeing some of these guys develop. But this is far from one of the eight best teams in the East.

It is as if all of the sudden people think that the Pacers are going to be good because they aren't dysfunctional anymore. It just puts us on even ground. The rest of the league hasn't been dysfunctional for many years now.

Young
07-11-2008, 11:18 PM
I didn't want to start another thread so i'll just ask it in here.

Does anyone know if the coaching staff will be the same as last year? I know Jim will be back but I was wondering about the assistants.

count55
07-11-2008, 11:26 PM
I didn't want to start another thread so i'll just ask it in here.

Does anyone know if the coaching staff will be the same as last year? I know Jim will be back but I was wondering about the assistants.

These are the guys that were listed on the Orlando SL Rosters:

Head Coach: Jim O'Brien
Assistant Coaches: Dick Harter, Lester Conner, Dan Burke, Frank Vogel and Jay DeFruscio

Honestly, I don't recall anybody beyond Harter, Conner & Burke, so...

Plax80
07-11-2008, 11:40 PM
Atlanta is not that good, and that's if Josh Smith were staying. Not that they're horrible or anything, but LAST YEAR's Pacers beat them 2 out of 3. This year's team has a better roster than last year. As for having us 15th in the East, good luck with that. :rolleyes:

1. I hope I'm wrong and we over-achieve and that Ford and Rush are bona fide all stars right away and that Rasho and Hibbert are beasts in the middle and that Troy solidifies teh Pf spot.

2. but I'll ask the same question I've asked a dozen times w/o a serious response .....
name the team besides the Knicks who we could call and say I'll trade you my roster for yours..........and they would likely accept ??

The only team in the east is NY and in the West the only possibilities are Sac w/ Artest and Miller causing problems...........and possibly the Clips w/o Brand and Maggette althoughthey have a lot of money to spend that we don't and a top 15 player in Baron that we don't and a couple of guys in Gordon and Thornton who may become very good players.

ok City is another possibility but in Durant they probbaly think they have a cornerstone to build around which we don't have.

And that's really it.

memphis has Gay, mayo, Marc gasol who is suppossed to be almost as good as his brother......and Conley. Gasol was projected to be the equivalent of the #3 or #4 pick in this draft........Mayo was drafted at #3.......Conley at #4 last year and gay is coming into his own.

And they have a ton of money to spend if they need/want to.

No way they swap rosters even if we win 5-6 more games than them this season.

I like the optimism...........I'm glad everyone thinks this team is headed somewhere. I just can't logically find many reasons to believe the same thing myself.

Hicks
07-11-2008, 11:56 PM
1. I hope I'm wrong and we over-achieve and that Ford and Rush are bona fide all stars right away and that Rasho and Hibbert are beasts in the middle and that Troy solidifies teh Pf spot.

None of those things have to happen, and of course they won't, to make us a better team. Why so many people get caught up in this mindset of "Every player is either an All-Star or Crap," I don't know.


2. but I'll ask the same question I've asked a dozen times w/o a serious response .....
name the team besides the Knicks who we could call and say I'll trade you my roster for yours..........and they would likely accept ??

I don't know, or care, and here's why: That never happens, and is not in any way the reality of the NBA.

Furthermore, it's not about who has the best fantasy roster, or who looks best on paper, it's which team can go out there and get it done. I think we have a roster severely lacking in name power, but containing several solid pieces that, when you put them all together, have a real chance of playing better than the sum of their parts, on paper, suggests that they should be able to perform.


I like the optimism...........I'm glad everyone thinks this team is headed somewhere. I just can't logically find many reasons to believe the same thing myself.

I think your logic needs some fine-tuning if it's all about stars and paper-champions. Star power is great, and often very important, but it's not the be-all, end-all, and it's certainly not as black and white as "You have star power, or you suck."

I think all the people who look at our roster and don't see a good deal of talent are dead wrong.

Now, that doesn't guarantee anything, but let's give it a chance before we all declare it worthless. I truly believe they have a shot at some decent success.

JayRedd
07-12-2008, 01:03 AM
I think all the people who look at our roster and don't see a good deal of talent are dead wrong.

And we think all the people who see any legitimate talent on our roster are flippin' nuts.

Bball
07-12-2008, 02:29 AM
None of those things have to happen, and of course they won't, to make us a better team. Why so many people get caught up in this mindset of "Every player is either an All-Star or Crap," I don't know.



I don't know, or care, and here's why: That never happens, and is not in any way the reality of the NBA.

Furthermore, it's not about who has the best fantasy roster, or who looks best on paper, it's which team can go out there and get it done. I think we have a roster severely lacking in name power, but containing several solid pieces that, when you put them all together, have a real chance of playing better than the sum of their parts, on paper, suggests that they should be able to perform.



I think your logic needs some fine-tuning if it's all about stars and paper-champions. Star power is great, and often very important, but it's not the be-all, end-all, and it's certainly not as black and white as "You have star power, or you suck."

I think all the people who look at our roster and don't see a good deal of talent are dead wrong.

Now, that doesn't guarantee anything, but let's give it a chance before we all declare it worthless. I truly believe they have a shot at some decent success.

Yip... I'm right there with you on this.

-Bball

Jose Slaughter
07-12-2008, 02:38 AM
I like our team, actually I like our team alot, compared to the past several seasons.

I think we'll be better than we've been for awhile. I'm not sure if that will show up in the "games won" column or not. That's the part that I, I can't say I don't care about.... more like, it's not my over riding concern.

I like the steps that have been takin', including the shoe that will soon drop on Tinsley. These are steps in the right direction.

Direction!

I like that word. The Pacers have a direction, they're getting better. Better enough to make it to the playoffs? If a lot of things happened just right, yes, they could get the 7th or 8th seed.

However, there also seems to be several teams in the East getting better too. Most of them are in the middle of the pack, like us, or right behind us in the standings.

Its going to be a very exciting playoff race next spring & I have little doubt the Pacers will be in the hunt. I just don't see us quite there yet.

Doesn't been I'm down on our guys or don't like the moves we're making. Actually, just the opposint, I'm really looking forward to watching a Pacers game again & its been a very long time since I've felt that.

I understand we might not make the playoffs & I'm OK with that for the coming season. Mainly because, now there is a sence of hope. A sence that the worse might actually be behind us.

kester99
07-12-2008, 03:34 AM
Any ranking of the East at this point is sheer speculation, and largely uninformed speculation at that. We don't know what any team's starting line-up is, for sure, for the upcoming season...not our own, Atlanta's, Chicago's, or anyone else's. So ranking is a guessing game now, even more than it is just prior to the season.

We are getting better, I believe. JO and JT both were highly effective at times, when they were on the floor, and then served to disrupt our rotation and chemistry when they went to the bench for long periods...and then disrupted the rotation and chemistry again when they came back off injury. And we still barely missed the play-offs.

I noticed last year, looking at plus-minuses of player combinations, that the teams towards the top of the standings had more minutes-per-combination of their starters and/or main subs...we had a very low amount of minutes per game for any of our player combinations.

An example: Of the top 50 4-player combinations +/- wise, in the East last year, none were Pacers, only 6 of the 50 had fewer than 200 minutes on the floor together, only two of the top 40 4-player combos had fewer than 200 minutes on the floor together. The average of the top 25 combos was more like 800 minutes' floor time together.

But of the Pacers top 50 4-player combinations, none had more than 200 minutes together on the floor. None. Zero. And we still barely missed the play-offs.

So...do we have a chance to make the play-offs? Sure. Every team has a chance. Do we have a good chance? Don't know, but I can't help but think that roster and rotation stability give our chances a heck of a boost. (Fewer distractions off-court ditto?)

And yeah, I agree with Jose's sentiment...we're going in a better direction for 2008-9, and have good potential now to do even more for '09-'10.

BlueNGold
07-12-2008, 08:14 AM
Any ranking of the East at this point is sheer speculation, and largely uninformed speculation at that. We don't know what any team's starting line-up is, for sure, for the upcoming season...not our own, Atlanta's, Chicago's, or anyone else's. So ranking is a guessing game now, even more than it is just prior to the season.

We are getting better, I believe. JO and JT both were highly effective at times, when they were on the floor, and then served to disrupt our rotation and chemistry when they went to the bench for long periods...and then disrupted the rotation and chemistry again when they came back off injury. And we still barely missed the play-offs.

I noticed last year, looking at plus-minuses of player combinations, that the teams towards the top of the standings had more minutes-per-combination of their starters and/or main subs...we had a very low amount of minutes per game for any of our player combinations.

An example: Of the top 50 4-player combinations +/- wise, in the East last year, none were Pacers, only 6 of the 50 had fewer than 200 minutes on the floor together, only two of the top 40 4-player combos had fewer than 200 minutes on the floor together. The average of the top 25 combos was more like 800 minutes' floor time together.

But of the Pacers top 50 4-player combinations, none had more than 200 minutes together on the floor. None. Zero. And we still barely missed the play-offs.

So...do we have a chance to make the play-offs? Sure. Every team has a chance. Do we have a good chance? Don't know, but I can't help but think that roster and rotation stability give our chances a heck of a boost. (Fewer distractions off-court ditto?)

And yeah, I agree with Jose's sentiment...we're going in a better direction for 2008-9, and have good potential now to do even more for '09-'10.

Great post. Continuity and rotations are something the Pacers have not had for quite some time. I assume you recall that those factors were absolutely huge to our success in the 90's...a period when we had good talent but no DWade, Kobe, Beasley or other tremendous player...yet we contended for years...and this gets to another point.

There is a decent chance we will have much better depth that should help the second unit function at a higher level. When you have a better second unit and guys actually practice...heaven forbid...competition tends to improve your team. We actually have two very good points that will go head to head in practice for example. Instead of a PF made of glass, who I'm not sure how much he did participate in practice, we have a couple big guys that will undoubtedly participate in practice on a regular basis. We will have less distractions and hopefully more maturity. Less time in a court of law and more time on a basketball court. Imagine the team learning to play together. I expect these things will lead to more wins.

joeshmoe
07-12-2008, 09:58 AM
There are six teams in the East which will make the playoffs barring injury:

In the Playoffs
Boston
Detroit
Orlando
Washington
Cleveland
Philadelphia

Fighting for Playoffs
Toronto
Indiana
Atlanta.
Milwaukee...benefit of the doubt
Miami...benefit of the doubt
Chicago...benefit of the doubt

Out of the Playoffs
New Jersey
Charlotte
New York

duke dynamite
07-12-2008, 10:04 AM
Any ranking of the East at this point is sheer speculation, and largely uninformed speculation at that. We don't know what any team's starting line-up is, for sure, for the upcoming season...not our own, Atlanta's, Chicago's, or anyone else's. So ranking is a guessing game now, even more than it is just prior to the season.
ection for 2008-9, and have good potential now to do even more for '09-...

I base my opinion on what kesty said. Everyone starts 0-0. It's easy to say that the top teams last year will do it all again, but you never know.

That's how these things go. I'm not going to say who will or won't make the playoffs except the Pacers. I just do that because of my home-team spirit and blindly optimisitc attitude.

BillS
07-12-2008, 01:11 PM
I think all the people who look at our roster and don't see a good deal of talent are dead wrong.


And we think all the people who see any legitimate talent on our roster are flippin' nuts.

So is that going back to the "Talent = All-Star, anything less means you're crap"?

I think it is ludicrous to say we have no legitimate talent on our roster. Even last year, when lack of talent on the floor was our primary flaw, it didn't mean we had none at all, only that we didn't have enough.

Granger definitely has talent. Foster is talented in many areas, though it is arguable about whether those areas are what is needed most of the time in the position he plays (I happen to think so, but I know there are those who disagree). I think Williams has a lot of talent but needs to learn to use it properly.

Of the new pickups, I think there's no question that B. Rush, Jack, and TJ Ford have talent. How much is still in the air.

I'm still waiting on Hibbert - he lumbers but at least knows where to put his feet, unlike Harrison, and that could turn out to help his talent or be a matter of overcoming a certain lack of it (as I think Diener does).

Now, if you were to say "MVP" talent or even "All-Star" talent instead of "legitimate" talent, you might get people to agree, but I don't think anyone credible is claiming those levels right now. All most people are saying is that, considering our talent investment in JO and JT was less than reliable, we had a talent upgrade from the players on the floor most of the season.

The argument seems to be that other teams' mid-range and potential talent somehow is head-and-shoulders above ours, and that every team in the East improved by so much that we fall behind (to last place in the East, fer crying out loud) because of it. I cry :bs: on that.

DisplacedKnick
07-12-2008, 02:06 PM
I don't think there's any way the Pacers finish last in the Conf but I do think that when it comes to pure talent, you're below every team but the Knicks, Bobcats & Nets. You should finish ahead of a couple of others based on depth but IMO making the playoffs will be tough.

You're still better off than last year - just not sure you'll be better immediately.

pianoman
07-12-2008, 02:16 PM
assuming we get a nice backup pf(landry), I think we will have one of the better benches in the east. We finally have some legitimate starters on our team at 4 positions.(i wouldn't call murphy a legitimate starter but more of a 6th man) we have 3 players that could land a spot on the all star team (Granger, Ford, dunleavy). Yeah, the East is stronger this year, but this team will play hard and will probrably suprise some people. If the team stays healthy this year with no off court issues, i think we could be a 45 win team at least. With a good draft and offseason next year, we could become one of the top 6 teams in the east again.

Rajah Brown
07-12-2008, 02:39 PM
p-man-

Can I have some of whatever you're smoking ?

pianoman
07-12-2008, 02:54 PM
rb, I'm just a sunshiner:sunshine:

JayRedd
07-12-2008, 03:20 PM
So is that going back to the "Talent = All-Star, anything less means you're crap"?

I think it is ludicrous to say we have no legitimate talent on our roster. Even last year, when lack of talent on the floor was our primary flaw, it didn't mean we had none at all, only that we didn't have enough.

Granger definitely has talent. Foster is talented in many areas, though it is arguable about whether those areas are what is needed most of the time in the position he plays (I happen to think so, but I know there are those who disagree). I think Williams has a lot of talent but needs to learn to use it properly.

Of the new pickups, I think there's no question that B. Rush, Jack, and TJ Ford have talent. How much is still in the air.

I'm still waiting on Hibbert - he lumbers but at least knows where to put his feet, unlike Harrison, and that could turn out to help his talent or be a matter of overcoming a certain lack of it (as I think Diener does).

Now, if you were to say "MVP" talent or even "All-Star" talent instead of "legitimate" talent, you might get people to agree, but I don't think anyone credible is claiming those levels right now. All most people are saying is that, considering our talent investment in JO and JT was less than reliable, we had a talent upgrade from the players on the floor most of the season.

The argument seems to be that other teams' mid-range and potential talent somehow is head-and-shoulders above ours, and that every team in the East improved by so much that we fall behind (to last place in the East, fer crying out loud) because of it. I cry :bs: on that.

Look...Every single player in the NBA is supremely talented. That's a given. If you were in an open gym watching Jacque Vaughn, Kevin Ollie, James Augustine and Brain Scalabrine play 2-on-2 (or even just shoot around) you would be amazed at how good the were. All four of them have incredible talents.

And even in the context of an NBA game, Jeff Foster is an amazing rebounder. TJ Ford is a superior penetrator. Danny is a great shooter. I'm well aware of all those things.

But, like it or not, the way to define their overall level of talent as a complete basketball players is to judge them against the abilities of other NBA basketball players.

Jeff = a rotation guy
TJ Ford = a middle of the pack starting PG.
Danny = 10th best SF in the league (maybe)
MDJ = 15th best SF in the league
Everyone else = rotation guys or worse

So...when I say we have no legitimate talent, it means that we likely don't have a Top 50 Player in the NBA on our team. (Danny is on the bubble...might be 45ish. Regardless, the exact ranking isn't my point.) And we might not have 3 in the Top 100. In a League of 30 teams, you would expect each team to have 3 of the Leagues 90 best players. IMO, we don't.

So, no, I don't mean "Talent = All Star." I mean "Talent = Players who when compared to other NBA players are better at the sport of basketball."

Here's a list of the 50ish best players in the League (in no particular order...and I'm sure I forgot some). Danny might be at the very end of that fifth grouping. Or not. Then there are about 15-20 other guys you could add (Monta, Kaman, Ray Allen, Tayshaun) before you get to MDJ and another dozen or two (Andre Miller, Jose, Battier, Hedo) before you get to TJ.

Thus, we do not have a lot of legitimate NBA talent when compared to other NBA teams, many of which have two or more players before you even get to Danny and about half of which have three players before you get to MDJ.

Kobe
Lebron
Timmy
KG
CP3
Dwyane
Dirk
Deron
Steve Nash
Matrix

Elton Brand
AI
Melo
Amare
Kevin Martin
Mike Redd
Bosh
Baron
Joe Johnson
TMac

Antawn
Vince Carter
Pierce
Boozer
Al Jeff
Dwight
David West
Pau Gasol
Yao
Marcus Camby

Caron Butler
Gilbert
Jason Kidd
Manu
Tony Parker
Luol
Chauncey
Rip
Rashard Lewis
Rudy Gay

Kevin Durant
Josh Howard
Lamar Odom
RJ
Iggy
Brandon Roy
Josh Smith
Sheed
Mike Miller
Gerald Wallace

Danny ??? A few places up? Or a few places down? It depends on who you talk to.

LaMarcus Aldridge
Okafor
Rose
Beasley

Plax80
07-12-2008, 03:48 PM
Thats ezxactly my point as well. You said it better than I with "in a league with 30 teams....you'd expect everyone to have about 3 in the top 100" quote.

We probbaly have one in the 50 range that you mentioned and another in the 75-80 range.

We just happen to be missing the top 15 player that we can build around. QAnd that top 15 player needs to be an interior player since we have none of those right now.

So my suggestion is to get real bad for two years and then make a big splash in FA thus improving our talent base from 1-125 by having 5 or 6 guys in that group instead of 2.

Hicks
07-12-2008, 03:55 PM
You get bad, you likely stay bad.

BlueNGold
07-12-2008, 04:12 PM
All of these talent comparisons could have been made last year yet we finished ONE game short of the playoffs. Soooo...what was the point again?

We have filled as many or more holes than any other team in the East. We have improved the PG position as much or better than anyone has improved any position on their team. If anything, we land about in the same area. No surprise folks, we will be contending for the 8th spot.

Edit: I had the tank going last year. It is true it is easier to get to the top by going to the very bottom. Look at the Celtics right now. They stunk terribly, got great draft picks then traded the assets for stars. But the truth is, that's not happening in Indy, so y'all better get used to it. It may be a longer road back to contending, but maybe not. I do think it's a longer way back to a championship, but we risk becoming the Vegas Pacers if we don't start climbing back up right now. I say stick with the program and start the long climb back...oh, and btw, don't acquire any more nimrods.

JayRedd
07-12-2008, 04:43 PM
My point wasn't about making the Playoffs. Just about overall talent.

We could certainly win 43 games, sneak in the Playoffs and play five or six games. I'm not convinced that anyone besides Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Washington and Orlando in the East is any good. And who knows what Dumars will do?

People trying to definitively say Miami, Chicago or Atlanta are good are just making things ups. Toronto, while probably a Playoff lock, is not scaring anyone either.

BlueNGold
07-12-2008, 04:50 PM
My point wasn't about making the Playoffs. Just about overall talent.

We could certainly win 43 games, sneak in the Playoffs and play five or six games. I'm not convinced that anyone besides Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Washington and Orlando in the East is any good. And who knows what Dumars will do?

People trying to definitively say Miami, Chicago or Atlanta are good are just making things ups. Toronto, while probably a Playoff lock, is not scaring anyone either.

At least we reach the same conclusion. Some might say the Pistons never had tremendous talent, but does it really matter? They have a ring and have contended for years with a good team. Not comparing us to them, but whether or not we have great overall talent, victories and playoff performances are all that really matter in the end. If we have the worst roster in the league yet win the championship, who really cares?...not saying that would happen, but the point is you want to win ball games not grow a crop of prima donnas.

Anyway, the conclusion is correct. Hardly anyone is attempting to frame this team as a contender. We will be fortunate to make the playoffs, but the assertion that we will be at #15 is the issue some of us are taking here. It's as unreasonable to say we will finish at #5 in the conference as #15. Neither are likely to happen. We are going to be in the 7-11 range...

Mourning
07-12-2008, 04:54 PM
No, there are too many teams that have surged ahead of us. I think we will be a better team than we were last year but there are simply too many good teams in the East now (never thought I would say that). The team we have last year probably would have made it over last year's Hawks, though.

Right now I see it as:

1. Boston
2. Detroit
3. Philly
4. Cleveland
5. Orlando
6. Washington
7. Miami

So, for the 8th spot, you got Atlanta, Chicago, Toronto, New Jersey, all as legit contenders. Indiana may even be a tier below these teams next year. Making the playoffs is going to be tough.

If everything goes wrong (all of the teams listed have a better record than us) we'll have, at worst, the 6th most ping pong balls in the lottery next year and will be able to draft a really good player, and knowing Bird, someone who could help right away. Figure in all those expiring contracts and we'll be able to sign a couple of hard nosed guys in the middle of their careers as well. After then, things will start to look up. Next year is still very much a transition year IMHO.

Sort of how I am looking at it aswell. I don't think we will make it to the post season the coming year, but I think we will make great strides on becoming a new team with a new identity and a new core of players.

Also beying a pretty young team there is quite some room for growth and chemistry developing in a more positive way (I think we have seen the first signs of that in the second season half this past year), so even though I don't see us making the playoffs this season I think we will be better and we will make progress slowly to the way back.

All in all a positive trend IMO.

Regards and :gopacers:

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
07-12-2008, 05:00 PM
assuming we get a nice backup pf(landry), I think we will have one of the better benches in the east. We finally have some legitimate starters on our team at 4 positions.(i wouldn't call murphy a legitimate starter but more of a 6th man) we have 3 players that could land a spot on the all star team (Granger, Ford, dunleavy). Yeah, the East is stronger this year, but this team will play hard and will probrably suprise some people. If the team stays healthy this year with no off court issues, i think we could be a 45 win team at least. With a good draft and offseason next year, we could become one of the top 6 teams in the east again.

Hold on... I like Ford aswell, but making the All Star team? And pretty much the same for Dun Dun? :huh:

Hell... I would be surprised if Danny were to make it and I think he's great.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

pianoman
07-12-2008, 06:41 PM
well, i mean they have a shot at being all star caliber players. It is a popularity contest though. so we probrably won't have anyone on the all star team.

Plax80
07-13-2008, 12:31 AM
All of these talent comparisons could have been made last year yet we finished ONE game short of the playoffs. Soooo...what was the point again?

We have filled as many or more holes than any other team in the East. We have improved the PG position as much or better than anyone has improved any position on their team. If anything, we land about in the same area. No surprise folks, we will be contending for the 8th spot.

Edit: I had the tank going last year. It is true it is easier to get to the top by going to the very bottom. Look at the Celtics right now. They stunk terribly, got great draft picks then traded the assets for stars. But the truth is, that's not happening in Indy, so y'all better get used to it. It may be a longer road back to contending, but maybe not. I do think it's a longer way back to a championship, but we risk becoming the Vegas Pacers if we don't start climbing back up right now. I say stick with the program and start the long climb back...oh, and btw, don't acquire any more nimrods.

Some of thats true........some isn't.

Chicago and Miami were completely dysfunctional last year and in Miami's case completely tanked the last 1/2 of teh season.

How often does an NBA coach leave his team to go scout potential draftees ??

So take the 10 playoff teams , add in those two and you can see us battling for 11th.

Then realize Charlotte had a ton of bad luck last year with injuries and they now have arguably the leagues best coach taking over a real solid roster and now you can put us no better than 12th.

From there Milwaukee figures to be better than us and Jersey as well and even the Knicks should improve under D'Antoni.

Clearly our work is cut out.

As for no team has filled its holes better than we did by acquiring TJ Ford ??

Wow. Thats a big statement to make about a guy most people would rank about 18th in terms of starting PGs. I'd put him at #10 in the East and thats being kind because that ranks him ahead of Nelson and Charlotte's PGs whichis real debatable.

In fact Tinsley's productivity when he played last year is probbaly about what we can expect from Ford.

I'll give you , however, that having someone besides Tinsley clanking up 4th qtr jumpers is a positive in and of itself.

And even though JO only played about 1/2 the games last year, his presence will be missed. Kravitz's article was totally on point. we now know going to training camp that we MUST rely on Murphy and Foster and Hibbert and Rasho to carry the load on both ends in the paint..............

How can that possibly be considered an improvement ???

Thats an abyss.

Again, I'm not an angry Pacer fan or a hater of Bird or anybody else. I'm just taking a realistic perspectiv eof our roster's talent compared to our competition.

To compare us to Detriot talent -wise is ridiculous. None of our starters......start for them......thats all that really needs t be said.

And to continually say an up and coming team like Atlanta thats loaded with top 5 choices and is coming off a confidence building series against Boston is over rated or a playoff 'hopeful" is nonsense. Granger probably starts ahead of Marvin williams.....but that's close and thats the only Pacer starter that you can even make an argument for.

Lets deal with a 25 win season, grab a top 3 pick in the draft to pair with Hibbert and then we can start getting excited again. I really think that in a couple of offseasons, we can get real competeive real quick with solid drafts and with guys liek Murphy falling off teh books or at least becoming tradeable.

TheRifleman51
07-13-2008, 01:26 AM
Check this out I know that alot of teams in the East Got better but realize who we Just GoT. We made some major moves that changed our teams direction. Were a team on the rize and we beat Miam and i Don't see them coming back to playoff caliber .They got Chalmers Who pretty much made a name for himself off one shot and Bealsey WHo Is kind of a Ball Hog they got alot of good players but as much chemisty as Lamb and tuna fish. Theres only one rock and they gotta lot of hands to feed. I understand that were young but things happen Check out the Blazers there a very young team and they were over .500 it can happen to us.
I say we make the 7 spot but thats just me

BlueNGold
07-13-2008, 09:05 AM
Plax - Glad to see you have us struggling for the 11 spot rather than sitting at #15.

...but you are making assumptions that none of the teams in the east are going to have problems this coming year. The truth is, in addition to an ineffective franchise player, we had major problems with our franchise player being AND starting point guard going in and out of the lineup....yet we finished ONE game short of the playoffs.

As for the PG position, we went from Travis Diener who cannot guard anybody...who had no real backup to TJ Ford AND Jarrett Jack...both solid starting quality PG's who are better in nearly every aspect of the game than Diener. Ford was not 18th. He was the 7th in PPG and 11th in assists (in the entire NBA)...all while sharing time with Calderon for goodness sakes. He also can defend and has great quickness and leadership skills. That makes him easily in the top half of all NBA starters. Jack is easily an average starting PG in the NBA...and IMO is at about the same level.

As for JO's presence, it was a nullity last year...particularly when he returned....so we relied on Foster, Murphy and co. last year anyway. Now we have a proven NBA C in Rasho who was putting up big numbers at the end of last season. He is a player who can defend the paint and hit the midrange jumper...something neither Foster nor Murphy can do. There's no question Rasho is far, far better than Harrison and Ike as an NBA commodity. He's also a little bigger than Jeff and we need size in there. Combine that with Hibbert and Foster will be roaming for rebounds rather than struggling against bigger players. So, instead of Foster and Murphy holding it down...because you know Ike did nothing and neither did Harrison...we have Foster, Hibbert, Rasho and Murphy. I would take that over a lame JO from last year and two complete voids.

As for comparisons to Detroit talent-wise, I did not do that. Go back and re-read the post.

Anyway, we will not be "dealing with a 25 win season" this year. I understand your views because I had them last year, but it's clearly not going to happen. The Pacers are not going to pull a Miami and get the #2 pick under Larry Bird. Bird wants to keep his job and he knows he needs to win some games and return to the playoffs. IMO, if that's his goal, he's making the right moves...for once. <!-- / message -->

AesopRockOn
07-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Can people stop talking like Hibbert's going to play next year please? Can the "sunshiners" at least be realistic about that?

Hicks
07-13-2008, 11:07 PM
Can people stop talking like Hibbert's going to play next year please? Can the "sunshiners" at least be realistic about that?

Uh, he probably IS going to play next year. It's just a matter of how many minutes. I'm guessing about 12.

LoneGranger33
07-13-2008, 11:08 PM
Is he going to sit out so he has a better shot at ROY?

BlueNGold
07-13-2008, 11:26 PM
Can people stop talking like Hibbert's going to play next year please? Can the "sunshiners" at least be realistic about that?

If the roster is so bad, why would he not play?

Seriously, if he can outplay Greg Oden in ANY game, which he did in one, I will place my bet on him being able to put some minutes in as a backup C in the NBA. I don't expect much from him but am merely hopeful. If he performs better than David Harrison, which should not be too difficult, I'm alright with that. I do expect him to be better than David...and at a #17 pick in this draft he should be...

BlueNGold
07-13-2008, 11:34 PM
Uh, he probably IS going to play next year. It's just a matter of how many minutes. I'm guessing about 12.

He will share 96 C/PF minutes with Rasho, Foster, Murphy and Williams.

Here are the numbers:

Foster: 26 min - 14 at C, 12 at PF
Murphy: 26 min - all at PF
Rasho: 20 min - all at C
Hibbert: 14 min - all at C
Williams: 10 min - all at PF

Jonathan
07-14-2008, 12:03 PM
I really like what the Nets have done so far in the offseason. I see them in the playoffs.

ChicagoJ
07-14-2008, 12:14 PM
A lineup of Jack or Ford, Rush, Granger, TBD and Hibbert won't make the playoffs next season. Won't come close.

But that should be the starting lineup.

Because that lineup, plus a legit "4", will make the playoffs in a couple of seasons of playing together, and have a better chance of advancing in the playoffs than Jack/Ford, Dunleavy, Granger, Murphy/Foster and Rasho will ever have.

If the coach doesn't start Hibbert and Rush, and have a legit competition betwen Jack and Ford (as we've seen both of them fall out of favor with their previous teams for *some* reason), and tries to win 35 games and make the playoffs, the coach should be fired.

This team needs a high lottery pick next summer and two seasons of playing together.

Jonathan
07-14-2008, 12:20 PM
A lineup of Jack or Ford, Rush, Granger, TBD and Hibbert won't make the playoffs next season. Won't come close.
Won't be the starting line-up.
But that should be the starting lineup.
No Way. Why? Build for the future?

If the coach doesn't start Hibbert and Rush, and have a legit competition betwen Jack and Ford (as we've seen both of them fall out of favor with their previous teams for *some* reason), and tries to win 35 games and make the playoffs, the coach should be fired.
Why would you fire a coach for trying to win.

This team needs a high lottery pick next summer and two seasons of playing together.

Teams that pick in the lottery continue to pick in the lottery look at Seatle.

Arcadian
07-14-2008, 12:27 PM
I'd get a Bird tattoo if he found our starting pg, sg, and center for years to come in one summer. I think we got some nice pieces but no foundations.

A line up of TBA, TBA, Granger, TBA, TBA could win a championship.

BillS
07-14-2008, 12:44 PM
Teams that pick in the lottery continue to pick in the lottery look at Oklahoma City.

Fixed.

BlueNGold
07-14-2008, 12:50 PM
Small market teams that pick in the lottery continue to pick in the lottery then move to Vegas...or to Europe...just ask Stern.

Fixed

Anthem
07-14-2008, 12:50 PM
A couple of teams will have catastrophic injuries and fall out of the race. One more team will tank for no good reason. The Pacers should be dramatically better than last year, if for no other reason than consistency.

And if I had to put money on it, I'd still bet we'd miss the playoffs.

Putnam
07-14-2008, 01:01 PM
Check this out I know that alot of teams in the East Got better but realize who we Just GoT. We made some major moves that changed our teams direction. Were a team on the rize and we beat Miam and i Don't see them coming back to playoff caliber .They got Chalmers Who pretty much made a name for himself off one shot and Bealsey WHo Is kind of a Ball Hog they got alot of good players but as much chemisty as Lamb and tuna fish. Theres only one rock and they gotta lot of hands to feed. I understand that were young but things happen Check out the Blazers there a very young team and they were over .500 it can happen to us. I say we make the 7 spot but thats just me




How many rocks does a hand eat, anyway?


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:qQAlPZ4B0lzBYM:http://www.neverendingstory.com/images/Image047.jpg

.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-14-2008, 01:05 PM
A couple of teams will have catastrophic injuries and fall out of the race. One more team will tank for no good reason. The Pacers should be dramatically better than last year, if for no other reason than consistency.

And if I had to put money on it, I'd still bet we'd miss the playoffs.

I agree with the first two sentences. I disagree the Pacers will be dramatically better. I think they'll play about the same if not worse due to inconsistency. This is the third year in a row where at least half the roster is different. I realize alot of these guys were end of the bench types but at least half were key players or in this coming season's instance expected to be key players.

2006-07 New Players=11
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Al Harrington
Troy Murphy
Darrell Armstrong
Marquis Daniels
Ike Diogu
Maceo Baston
Rawle Marshall
Keith McLeod
Orien Greene
Josh Powell
2007-08 New Players=6
Kareem Rush
Travis Diener
Flip Murray
Andre Owens
Stephen Graham
Courtney Sims
2008-09 New Players=7 & counting
Maceo Baston
T.J. Ford
Roy Hibbert
Jarrett Jack
Josh McRoberts
Rasho Nesterovic
Brandon Rush

Putnam
07-14-2008, 01:10 PM
A lineup of Jack or Ford, Rush, Granger, TBD and Hibbert won't make the playoffs next season. Won't come close.

But that should be the starting lineup.

If the coach doesn't start Hibbert and Rush, and have a legit competition betwen Jack and Ford (as we've seen both of them fall out of favor with their previous teams for *some* reason), and tries to win 35 games and make the playoffs, the coach should be fired.

This team needs a high lottery pick next summer and two seasons of playing together.



:applaud:

Especially the two seasons of playing together.


.

ChicagoJ
07-14-2008, 02:11 PM
Teams that pick in the lottery continue to pick in the lottery look at Seatle.

Ownership problem.

Hawks? young players eventually found their way out of the lottery together?

Bulls? young players eventually found their way out of the lottery together (and then found their way back in.)

Pacers of 1986-1992: young players eventually found their way out of the lottery, and by 1994/95, were ECF regulars.

This isn't a get-well-quick strategy. But its better than a perpetual first-round-and-out strategy. Look at how many more teams get stuck in that rut.

BillS
07-14-2008, 02:49 PM
So let me understand this based on the various responses in this and other threads.

The Pacers are a horrible team destined to suck forever who got 9th place in the East due to the weakness of the conference but should have been much lower.

The Hawks are a strong young team destined to be in the playoffs for years to come who got 8th place in the East due to their talent and teamwork.

Obeh Kaybeh.

ChicagoJ
07-14-2008, 03:46 PM
I'd get a Bird tattoo if he found our starting pg, sg, and center for years to come in one summer. I think we got some nice pieces but no foundations.

A line up of TBA, TBA, Granger, TBA, TBA could win a championship.

:laugh: Okay, you got me. I'm not quite sure what to do with this small amount of optimism I have right now.

I'm certainly not crazy about either PG we traded for. I do think Rush is the guy at SG.

So I'll raise you:

A lineup of TBA, Rush, Granger, TBA, TBA could win a championship.

Hibbert: big, slow, fundamental, intelligent. I'm ready to put him in the Rik Smits role.

I see where Bird is taking this. Don't make too much out of the use of the equal sign. Clearly they aren't there yet. But a couple of years down the road??

Ford = Jackson
Jack = Best
Rush = Miller
Granger = Rose
Dunleavy = Mullin
PF/ TBA = Davis Twins
Hibbert = Smits
Murphy = Perkins

I think we are on our way to putting together a team that can compete in the NBA in the 1990's.

Arcadian
07-14-2008, 04:05 PM
I hope our guys the best. They will be fun to root for.

Here's some more fun comparisons.

Bird=Larry
Morway=Rick
Morris=Dick

BlueNGold
07-14-2008, 04:12 PM
The hope being expressed by *some* of us is not that the Pacers make the playoffs this coming season....or that we have great talent at this moment. It's the hope that...for the first time in years...the franchise has hit the very bottom and will be climbing back to respectability. We see some of these personnel changes as the beginning of some good times. None are great players. None will be Reggie Miller type talent. But we are acquiring some pieces...at least some quality assets. For those who watched the rise from the early 90's, you know what I'm talking about. That's where the excitement is coming from, particularly from a few dark siders with a long view at Pacer history. We are starting to have some hope. The sun is rising folks...