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lonestar
07-08-2008, 10:17 PM
I know it's only summer league. I know Diener has a contract. I know it's only 2 games, but I really like what Calloway could bring to the table as our 3rd PG spot. Particularly on the defensive end. His shot seems to have gotten better since college as well. Anybody have thoughts on Calloway? Granted a 3rd string PG is nothing to jump up and down about, but it's slow and what else is there to talk about?

Young
07-08-2008, 10:29 PM
I don't expect anyone on the summer league to make this team.

Maybe Calloway is good enough for the NBA I don't know. I don't expect him to be on the Pacers next season though. We have 5 million reasons to keep Travis Diener and just brought in two other point guards. We don't need another one.

jeffg-body
07-08-2008, 10:36 PM
I really like Calloway as well, but we are just too stocked at the PG spot. I hope he catches on with another team. He is a good kid that deserves a chance.

MyFavMartin
07-08-2008, 10:37 PM
I think people are quick to dismiss what Diener did for the team last year. I think he presents JOB an option of the bench that is very different from Jack and who can hit the open 3PTer when left open. He also brings energy and comes to play every day and has a year of experience with JOB's offense.

Calloway may make it somewhere, but I don't expect the Pacers to cut a guaranteed contract for a different 3rd string PG.

Anthem
07-08-2008, 11:41 PM
I think he presents JOB an option of the bench that is very different from Jack and who can hit the open 3PTer when left open.
Jack is a SIGNIFICANTLY better shooter than Diener.

I don't understand why people keep thinking Diener's a shooter. He's not.

LG33
07-08-2008, 11:45 PM
I don't understand why people keep thinking Diener's a shooter. He's not.

How did he get into the NBA then?

count55
07-08-2008, 11:51 PM
How did he get into the NBA then?

Compromising pictures of high ranking NBA personnel.

Matney33
07-08-2008, 11:56 PM
[QUOTE=iPACER;754583]I think people are quick to dismiss what Diener did for the team last year. I think he presents JOB an option of the bench that is very different from Jack and who can hit the open 3PTer when left open. He also brings energy and comes to play every day and has a year of experience with JOB's offense.

Amen

Anthem
07-09-2008, 12:13 AM
How did he get into the NBA then?
He reminded Larry Bird of Mark Price.

You remember Larry Bird... his previous PG signing was Sarunas.

BlueNGold
07-09-2008, 12:16 AM
Jack is a SIGNIFICANTLY better shooter than Diener.

I don't understand why people keep thinking Diener's a shooter. He's not.

Yes, and a significantly better player. I think people are going to be really surprised....shocked in fact. This guy is very capable of scoring in double figures for us and can defend. Diener can do Niener...er, Neither. ...and Jack is only 24 years old.

With that said, Diener is a decent backup PG. That's just how far we've come with these trades. We have been so PG poor for so long it's not even funny. IMO, Ford is clearly better than Tinsley...and I think considering defense, Jack is just as good overall unless Tinsley is having a great game...which is about 10% of the time he even plays.

tadscout
07-09-2008, 12:26 AM
I think the biggest asset Diener brings to the team is his leadership and great locker-room presence... he was very much a glue / high chemistry guy for his teammates... and when he is on the floor he has a great assists to turnover ratio... so what else more can you ask from your 3rd string pg?

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 12:28 AM
Jack is a SIGNIFICANTLY better shooter than Diener.

I don't understand why people keep thinking Diener's a shooter. He's not.

Diener put up more 3PTers than Jack in half the amount of playing time last year. So he's a shooter. Didn't hit as many as we'd like, but he came out his rookie season shooting over 40% on 3PTers. Plus, he shot very well behind the arc in college.

I'm not going to argue with you if you're stating that Jack is a better shooter on average from every place on the court, though. Those stats would back your statement nicely.

And I'm sure not going to argue on the athleticism or defense... but if I needed a 3 PTer at the end of the game, I'd go with Travis over Jarrett.

mb221
07-09-2008, 12:33 AM
Like the original poster started out with.. It was only the D-League but Calloway had a solid close to the season with the Mad Ants shooting over 40% from 3PT land and averaging 22 pts a game over the last 27. It would be nice to see him limit his turnovers in the last couple of summer league games if he continues to get as much run as he has in the first two. It seems like he would fit the Pacers system, and if we didn't have Diener I could see him sticking on as the 3rd PG possibly.

crunk-juice
07-09-2008, 02:29 AM
i went to the Bucks game towards the end of the season.. the Pacers were down by 10 i believe and Diener pretty much single-handedly brought us back and won the game by hitting all those threes. so yes, he is a shooter. and he consistantly provides a good assist-TO ratio. he's sure not a starter but i am very happy to have someone of his caliber as our #3. i don't see any reason to change that.

Kemo
07-09-2008, 05:59 AM
i went to the Bucks game towards the end of the season.. the Pacers were down by 10 i believe and Diener pretty much single-handedly brought us back and won the game by hitting all those threes. so yes, he is a shooter. and he consistantly provides a good assist-TO ratio. he's sure not a starter but i am very happy to have someone of his caliber as our #3. i don't see any reason to change that.


AMEN


people STILL dont get the fact that this last season was pretty much Diener's rookie season by all accounts....

Crap... what do you people expect?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Cause his technically rookie season with Orlando , he maybe played in a number of games you could probably count on your hands....

What more could you ask out of a guy playing his real first season.... when he was thrown to the wolves so to speak and forced into it by situtaion for us last year...???
In which I think he done a pretty decent job considering the above... and the team we had to work with out on the floor ...

If Diener was given the PT that Jack has gotten over the last few years... It would be him and TJ Ford runnin the point and we wouldnt have Jack on our team....


IT kinda makes me upset in all honesty about us getting Jack , cause I wanted Trav to be our primary backup pg and develop LIKE HE SHOULD...

I hope like hell he doesn't ride the pine this year or I am going to be upset...

As much as it bothers me to say this... I hope that if he gets blackballed and dont get any minutes with us .. that we at very LEAST do him the courtesy of trading him to a team that will play him...
Because if that happens I will instantly be a fan of whatever team he goes to... cause I think if a team lets him develop and play at minimum 20 minutes a game.. he WILL become the Mark Price of this generation of NBA players...
The Hell with what some ofyou naysayers think...

DGPR
07-09-2008, 07:19 AM
AMEN


people STILL dont get the fact that this last season was pretty much Diener's rookie season by all accounts....

Crap... what do you people expect?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Cause his technically rookie season with Orlando , he maybe played in a number of games you could probably count on your hands....

What more could you ask out of a guy playing his real first season.... when he was thrown to the wolves so to speak and forced into it by situtaion for us last year...???
In which I think he done a pretty decent job considering the above... and the team we had to work with out on the floor ...

If Diener was given the PT that Jack has gotten over the last few years... It would be him and TJ Ford runnin the point and we wouldnt have Jack on our team....


IT kinda makes me upset in all honesty about us getting Jack , cause I wanted Trav to be our primary backup pg and develop LIKE HE SHOULD...

I hope like hell he doesn't ride the pine this year or I am going to be upset...

As much as it bothers me to say this... I hope that if he gets blackballed and dont get any minutes with us .. that we at very LEAST do him the courtesy of trading him to a team that will play him...
Because if that happens I will instantly be a fan of whatever team he goes to... cause I think if a team lets him develop and play at minimum 20 minutes a game.. he WILL become the Mark Price of this generation of NBA players...
The Hell with what some ofyou naysayers think...

Travis Diener is just not going to be the next Mark Price. Quote me on that.

Dukins
07-09-2008, 08:38 AM
AMEN


people STILL dont get the fact that this last season was pretty much Diener's rookie season by all accounts....

Crap... what do you people expect?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?
Cause his technically rookie season with Orlando , he maybe played in a number of games you could probably count on your hands....

What more could you ask out of a guy playing his real first season.... when he was thrown to the wolves so to speak and forced into it by situtaion for us last year...???
In which I think he done a pretty decent job considering the above... and the team we had to work with out on the floor ...

If Diener was given the PT that Jack has gotten over the last few years... It would be him and TJ Ford runnin the point and we wouldnt have Jack on our team....


IT kinda makes me upset in all honesty about us getting Jack , cause I wanted Trav to be our primary backup pg and develop LIKE HE SHOULD...

I hope like hell he doesn't ride the pine this year or I am going to be upset...

As much as it bothers me to say this... I hope that if he gets blackballed and dont get any minutes with us .. that we at very LEAST do him the courtesy of trading him to a team that will play him...
Because if that happens I will instantly be a fan of whatever team he goes to... cause I think if a team lets him develop and play at minimum 20 minutes a game.. he WILL become the Mark Price of this generation of NBA players...
The Hell with what some ofyou naysayers think...


Mark Price? :laugh::buddies:

Hey Diener is that you?


You have got to be kidding, D. Rose and B. Westbrook would have torched Diener in the summer league or in a reg. season game if you ask me. Travis is a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. Say it with me one more time a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. And his offense, well anyone can come down the court and Jack three's in O'Brien's offense. You put him under a Carlisle and we will see if you are still singing the Diener song.

Calloway outplayed and more than held his own against two of the better rookie pgs in the draft. There is no way that Diener should get a sniff over Calloway. Calloway is much much faster and his defensive prescense on the court was uncanny in the two summer league games. If Calloway does make a mistake in the o, he can make up for his mistake with speed, as it was seen the games that he has played in so far. I firmly believe that you should have a pg that can score, because that just makes our team that much better. You dont know if the point guard is going to pass or shoot the rock, that is hard to defend. With Diener you know what you are getting, a slow, three chucking, DEFENSIVE LIABILITY, pg that cant create on his own.

Not a personal jab to the Diener lovers er Wiener lovers, but Calloway is hands down better than Diener.

2minutes twowa
07-09-2008, 08:59 AM
Travis Diener is just not going to be the next Mark Price. Quote me on that.

Wow! Way to go out on a limb:D

DGPR
07-09-2008, 09:00 AM
Wow! Way to go out on a limb:D

Sometimes it's best to take the safe route.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 09:04 AM
Diener put up more 3PTers than Jack in half the amount of playing time last year. So he's a shooter. Didn't hit as many as we'd like. . . .


i went to the Bucks game towards the end of the season.. the Pacers were down by 10 i believe and Diener pretty much single-handedly brought us back and won the game by hitting all those threes. so yes, he is a shooter.

He's a shooter if Stephen Jackson's a shooter. He's a chucker with poor shot selection and FGA. Sure, some games he's lights out. But usually he's even worse, and those good games bring his FGA up.... to 31%.

iPac and crunk, do you guys consider Stephen Jackson to be a shooter?

lonestar
07-09-2008, 09:04 AM
I agree that Calloway won't make the team, but only because Diener has a guaranteed contract. If they were both coming in off the street, I'd say I'd rather have Calloway for the 3rd PG spot with his speed/ability to push the ball and ability to put ball pressure on the defensive end.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 09:06 AM
Not a personal jab to the Diener lovers, but Calloway is hands down better than Diener.
Well, it is summer league. I wouldn't be able to say for sure until we get into an NBA season/preseason.

But if he keeps this up he's earned a camp invite at the very least.

Justin Tyme
07-09-2008, 09:18 AM
Tinsley is having a great game...which is about 10% of the time he even plays.

That statement should have read "when he even played."

Doddage
07-09-2008, 09:27 AM
Diener did have an impressive ast/to ratio this past season, but still I'm not a fan of giving him the contract we did. You can find serviceable PGs like Diener in the D-league and undrafted and acquire them for the minimum.

Dukins
07-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Well, it is summer league. I wouldn't be able to say for sure until we get into an NBA season/preseason.

But if he keeps this up he's earned a camp invite at the very least.


I agree it is summer league play but, you would think with the experience that diener has had in the nba that he would look alot better than a straight off the street rookie.

I hope he does make it to camp, because at this point im thinking he is expendable. I dont think the 3rd pg will get much, if any playing time in the regular season anyway. It will be a good insurance policy to have another defensive minded pg that can create his own shot if need be.

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 10:04 AM
iPac and crunk, do you guys consider Stephen Jackson to be a shooter?

Off the court or on? :D

Anthem
07-09-2008, 10:38 AM
Off the court or on? :D
Knew that was coming. :D

Regardless, the point stands. Diener's just not a shooter. He's a great floor general with atrocious defense and a below-average shot.

Hicks
07-09-2008, 10:39 AM
He reminded Larry Bird of Mark Price.

You remember Larry Bird... his previous PG signing was Sarunas.

Except for that pesky detail that it was the Orlando Magic who drafted him, not us.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 10:55 AM
Except for that pesky detail that it was the Orlando Magic who drafted him, not us.
Not like I didn't know that. Orlando got him as a second-round pick that they didn't want to pay much money to extend.

Bird's the guy that gave him the big (as in, way more than he could have gotten elsewhere) payday.

But yeah, mine was a stupid answer to a stupid question. There are plenty of guys in the NBA that aren't shooters. I'm not saying the kid doesn't have other abilities that make him valuable to an NBA team. I really like the way he runs the offense.

But he's not a shooter.

count55
07-09-2008, 11:01 AM
He's a shooter if Stephen Jackson's a shooter. He's a chucker with poor shot selection and FGA. Sure, some games he's lights out. But usually he's even worse, and those good games bring his FGA up.... to 31%.

iPac and crunk, do you guys consider Stephen Jackson to be a shooter?

Travis, like Stephen, is a shooter.

Regrettably, neither are hitters as often as you'd like.

Dukins
07-09-2008, 11:05 AM
Something I forgot to mention is Calloway is a hell of a rebounder for his size 6' 3". He even outrebounded Shawne yesterday in rebounds, IMAGINE THAT! lol

DrBadd01
07-09-2008, 11:06 AM
He reminded Larry Bird of Mark Price.

You remember Larry Bird... his previous PG signing was Sarunas.

I miss Cabbage . . . . . :(

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Does it really matter who the 3rd string PG is? Can you say Waterboy?

I don't think anyone will argue that either Diener or Calloway will be getting much time and neither are good enough to displace Jack from the 2nd chair.

I could see the Pacers obliging Diener and trading him with other players to a team where he could get PT if the trade brought back another piece (PF seems like a popular PD suggestion).

Dr. Goldfoot
07-09-2008, 11:20 AM
Does it really matter who the 3rd string PG is? Can you say Waterboy?



Well, Travis will likely start the season as a slightly overpaid 3rd stringer until T.J. goes down and he becomes the second stringer.

rexnom
07-09-2008, 11:24 AM
Well, Travis will likely start the season as a slightly overpaid 3rd stringer until T.J. goes down and he becomes the second stringer.
Nice.

There's that, and the fact that Pacers will probably be tossing out some small ball with Diener and Jack occasionally.

Dukins
07-09-2008, 11:29 AM
Does it really matter who the 3rd string PG is? Can you say Waterboy?

I don't think anyone will argue that either Diener or Calloway will be getting much time and neither are good enough to displace Jack from the 2nd chair.

I could see the Pacers obliging Diener and trading him with other players to a team where he could get PT if the trade brought back another piece (PF seems like a popular PD suggestion).


It does matter, because we all know that it is a strong possibility that T.J. will go down at some point during the season. With Calloway as a 3rd stringer he would provide basically what T.J. would with a little more height.

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Calloway will sign with another team for the chance of PT.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Article on Earl.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/camp_locals_080704.html


Others might have doubts. Earl Calloway has none.

He's convinced he has NBA talent and hopes to make good on his second opportunity to make it to the league. The former Indiana University point guard is one of a handful of players with local connections participating in the Pacers' summer minicamp that began Thursday in Conseco Fieldhouse. The group includes shooting guard David Teague (Purdue), small forward Pete Campbell (Butler), point guard Stanley Burrell (Ben Davis High) and Al Berdiel (Valparaiso).

Asked to describe his confidence level, Calloway said, "Through the roof."

He has good reason – much moreso than a year ago, when he was so lightly regarded as a prospect no NBA team scheduled him for a pre-draft workout. He had a summer-league trial with the Hawks but wound up with Ft. Wayne of the D-League.

In the freer tempo of the professional environment, Calloway thrived, averaging 19.9 points and 5.8 assists (sixth in the league) while shooting .497 overall and .407 from the 3-point line. He finished strong, averaging 22 points in the final 27 games.

"It was great – a lot of traveling, a lot of flying, a lot of games, a lot of minutes but you expect that coming up to the next level," Calloway said of his D-League experience. "It's a different story for everyone. I didn't have (NBA) workouts but I made sure I kept going into the gym to work on my game and it's paying off. And I'm going to continue to work, regardless. …

"These guys are giving me an opportunity. I'm going to play my hardest and whatever happens, happens. If they don't have a spot for me, hopefully somebody else does."

With the roster in a state of transition – seven new players are on the way after two proposed draft-night trades are expected to become official next week – it's unclear just how much opportunity exists for the players competing this week. But the Pacers are leaving open the door.

"Coach O'Brien said that if there's anybody better than guys we have under contract, he said he and Larry Bird and David Morway have no problem making roster moves," said assistant coach Lester Conner, who's supervising the minicamp. "That's just about the business and winning basketball games.

"If we think that we need another point guard from this group, well, we're going to take another point guard into the season. If we think we have somebody better than Shawne (Williams) or Stephen (Graham), then we're going to do that – along with all of our other spots. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility, as far as making our team."

pacerscolts1125
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
I think we should keep this guy, and let Baston walk. The Pacers have held four point guards in the past. With T.J.'s history its something I think Larry will keep in mind. Since Foster and Murphy can play the 4-5 baston's not going to see the floor anyways.

pg) Ford Jack Diener Calloway
sg) Dunleavy Rush Daniels
sf) Grander Williams Graham
pf) Murphy Foster McRoberts
c) Rasho Hibbert

LG33
07-09-2008, 12:05 PM
But yeah, mine was a stupid answer to a stupid question. There are plenty of guys in the NBA that aren't shooters. I'm not saying the kid doesn't have other abilities that make him valuable to an NBA team. I really like the way he runs the offense.

A guy that size and build would not make the NBA if he couldn't put the ball in the basket. They don't draft small guys who can't shoot - maybe bigs, but not point guards. He made the league because he was a good shooter in college and still is a good shooter. Give the guy a chance for Christ's sake.

I didn't see this kind of outpouring of support for "Snap" Hunter. Maybe it's 'cause he wasn't a local boy?

Dukins
07-09-2008, 12:32 PM
A guy that size and build would not make the NBA if he couldn't put the ball in the basket. They don't draft small guys who can't shoot - maybe bigs, but not point guards. He made the league because he was a good shooter in college and still is a good shooter. Give the guy a chance for Christ's sake.

I didn't see this kind of outpouring of support for "Snap" Hunter. Maybe it's 'cause he wasn't a local boy?


We filled the gap with shooting in the draft. That means Diener can go. Key word you said "WAS" a good shooter. Dan, Dun, and Rush can fill that role. Thanks for the fill-in last year Travis, there is a new man in town, possibly.

C'mon I know you see the difference out on the court between the to, it isnt even close. If anyone played head and shoulders above diener in the summer league on our squad, I would point it out. Saying he is a local boy, is just to ruffle a little feathers, it wont work buddy. Calloway's play proves he is better.

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Earl still hasn't reached Diener's record of 34 pts in the summer league... ;)

Travis did a good job last year.

Keep the Diener!

count55
07-09-2008, 12:51 PM
A guy that size and build would not make the NBA if he couldn't put the ball in the basket. They don't draft small guys who can't shoot - maybe bigs, but not point guards. He made the league because he was a good shooter in college and still is a good shooter. Give the guy a chance for Christ's sake.

Jacque Vaughn
Tyus Edney
Brevin Knight
Rajon Rondo
TJ Ford

Actually, it's not uncommon for small point guards who can't shoot to be drafted. Of course, most of those guys are unbelievably quick and provide some level of defense.

As to Diener, he isn't in the league because of his shooting. It's possible that some projected him as a shooter coming out of college, but if that were the only thing keeping him in the league, he'd be out. He's a career 38% shooter, including only 34% from beyond the arc. Last year, his only season with volume, he shot 37%, including only 32% in threes.

However, Travis remains in the league, and probably deservedly so. Why? Because he's a good ballhandler who does a decent (if overly conservative) job of running a team's offense. He's low risk, makes few turnovers and can, on occasion, score some points. While you'd like to have better defense, everybody knows that the third string PG is going to be limited. He's perfectly suited for playing short minutes (15, maybe 20, max), and I think he could probably fill that role on most teams in the league.


I didn't see this kind of outpouring of support for "Snap" Hunter. Maybe it's 'cause he wasn't a local boy?

You just weren't paying attention. There are some who will start penciling into the rotation anyone that shows a pulse in the summer league. I can remember people claiming James White would become our starting PG. "Snap" had his fans. Calloway's Hoosier connection helps him here, but it's not a solitary incident.

avoidingtheclowns
07-09-2008, 12:56 PM
Calloway's play proves he is better.

no, it really doesn't. it is summer league.

count55
07-09-2008, 12:58 PM
While Calloway may eventually earn a spot in the league, there is not one here. The Pacers have 16 players under contract, so you'd have to cut someone with guaranteed money.

Earl Calloway is worth a flyer at the min, but when you add the salary of Diener ($1.6) or Baston ($2.0), you're basically paying $2 to 3mm for the guy to maybe, possibly, hopefully, be better than Diener.

Prior to the Toronto & Portland trades, I would've been all for it. Now, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

count55
07-09-2008, 12:59 PM
no, it really doesn't. it is summer league.

Careful...we don't wanna get any truth on us.

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 12:59 PM
And Reggie shot 32% on his 3PTers in his last year... and yet we all would have loved to have him a couple more years.

Diener was forced to play as a starter PG last year which affected his energy level which affects your shot. Plus he had an ankle injury, for which he's had offseason surgery.

count55
07-09-2008, 01:13 PM
And Reggie shot 32% on his 3PTers in his last year... and yet we all would have loved to have him a couple more years.


Now, you're just being silly.

I'll tell you what...you come back and let me know when Travis has logged 17 years at a combined 40% from beyond the arc, and we'll talk.

What's amazing about the retort is that I actually gave an alternate argument as to why Travis was in the league. I don't think he's a shooter, and I still think he's a serviceable player who belongs in the league. The guy's got a career 3.9-1 Ast-to-TO ratio, including 4.6-1 last season. He's averaged a turnover every 24 minutes played (25 last year). Hell, Steve Nash makes one every 12 minutes. Now while that speaks more to style than ability, isn't that what you want out of your bench players? Provide a lift when you can, but, above all, don't **** things up? Why would you cling to a "shooter" theory that has absolutely no evidentiary support?

MyFavMartin
07-09-2008, 01:16 PM
He finished as Marquette’s career leader in 3-pt field goals made (284).

BPump33
07-09-2008, 01:21 PM
We filled the gap with shooting in the draft. That means Diener can go. Key word you said "WAS" a good shooter. Dan, Dun, and Rush can fill that role. Thanks for the fill-in last year Travis, there is a new man in town, possibly.

C'mon I know you see the difference out on the court between the to, it isnt even close. If anyone played head and shoulders above diener in the summer league on our squad, I would point it out. Saying he is a local boy, is just to ruffle a little feathers, it wont work buddy. Calloway's play proves he is better.

Calloway's play in Summer League (even if it was against Westbrook) doesn't prove that he's better than Diener. Trav stepped in last year when we didn't have a PG at all and helped carry this team. His ast/TO ratio was great. His shooting was definitely not as good as expected, but just b/c an IU boy plays well in TWO SUMMER LEAGUE GAMES (and the D-League) doesn't mean he should replace a guy who started 20 games for us last year. I'm a huge IU fan, but I'm not willing to put Earl on this team yet. I mean come on, it is still Summer League. I know it's great to get worked up about it (I'm guilty as well), but let's not go to crazy on this.

All that said, I wish Earl the best of luck wherever he does catch on and I've always been a fan of his.

ABADays
07-09-2008, 03:12 PM
I wouldn't be too quick on getting rid of Diener.

Anthem
07-09-2008, 03:36 PM
He made the league because he was a good shooter in college

Yes.


and still is a good shooter.

No.

Look, I like the kid too, and as I've said he's great at running the team. But please tell me in what way he can be considered a good shooter. His college stats aren't useful here.

He might one day BECOME a good shooter, if he keeps working on it. That could actually happen this season, and believe me I'd be thrilled. But you can't look at the past year and say "Yeah, he shot the ball well this year."

When we went after Sarunas, Tinsley had shot 37% and we were clamoring for a better shooter because 37% wasn't getting it done. Sarunas was supposedly a better shooter, yet he came in and shot worse. Diener's a shooter, but he only hits 31%?

He's a floor general, not a shooter.

count55
07-09-2008, 03:59 PM
I believe this has devolved into what I call in my business life "violently agreeing".

TheDon
07-09-2008, 05:10 PM
Somebody tell Mullin that Diener is comparable to Price the way it's going we might be able to get a few draft picks and Diener a 60 million dollar deal over the next 5 years for giggles we'll even throw in Tinsley, just cause we're that nice.

waxman
07-09-2008, 05:48 PM
Deiner comparable to M. Price... from the hair follicle - up.

Midcoasted
07-09-2008, 05:51 PM
Id love to have him. He was my favorite player at IU, well maybe White, and this is coming from someone who knows Gordon will be a playoff choker his whole career. Earl Calloway is my boy and as much as I love to support the white boys (gotta route for the underdog) I would trade Diener for him in a second flat. I was one of Diener biggest and first supporters last year, but calloway bring way more to the fast paced offense. But in all actuality, Diener could compliment Fords style better off the bench then Calloway so i'll keep Diener for now. But would love to get Calloway on the team somehow. Id definitely give up our 3rd PG for him, even though he hasn't got a shot yet.

Midcoasted
07-09-2008, 05:52 PM
Somebody tell Mullin that Diener is comparable to Price the way it's going we might be able to get a few draft picks and Diener a 60 million dollar deal over the next 5 years for giggles we'll even throw in Tinsley, just cause we're that nice.

LMFAO

pacers08
07-10-2008, 02:45 PM
:crazy:anyone who thinks anybody would make on the summer league must be crazy

pwee31
07-19-2008, 11:39 AM
Is Calloway playing for the Jazz now at their Revue?

beast23
07-19-2008, 12:17 PM
I think the biggest asset Diener brings to the team is his leadership and great locker-room presence... he was very much a glue / high chemistry guy for his teammates... and when he is on the floor he has a great assists to turnover ratio... so what else more can you ask from your 3rd string pg?

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Calloway has absolutely no chance of making our roster. But he is getting court time and will get plenty of looks from other teams.

I view a 3rd string PG exactly like I view a "disaster QB" in football. That's someone who will not hurt you and does exactly what you need... without commiting mistakes, get the ball to someone else who is able to do something with it.

In that regard, especially considering his AST-TO ratio and his occassional ability to hit an open perimeter shot, I believe Travis Diener is what we need.

Not a good starting PG or even a great 2nd string PG, but an exceptional 3rd string PG.

However, if we find another team that seems to believe that Diener would be an adequate starting PG or a great 2nd string PG, then I think we would have to consider using him in a trade. In that instance, he would obviously have more value to the other team and perhaps we could combine Diener with another player to obtain something we need more.

Anthem
07-19-2008, 12:23 PM
However, if we find another team that seems to believe that Diener would be an adequate starting PG or a great 2nd string PG, then I think we would have to consider using him in a trade. In that instance, he would obviously have more value to the other team and perhaps we could combine Diener with another player to obtain something we need more.
Good point.

I'll add, though, that there's one other thing you really need from a 3rd-string PG: defense. They're most likely to get PT due to foul trouble, and if the guy is fouling out our starter and backup, a 3rd-stringer with no D is going to get torched.

beast23
07-19-2008, 12:31 PM
Good point.

I'll add, though, that there's one other thing you really need from a 3rd-string PG: defense. They're most likely to get PT due to foul trouble, and if the guy is fouling out our starter and backup, a 3rd-stringer with no D is going to get torched.

Very good point. As you probably recall, I have always stressed perimeter defense, particularly at the point.

From my perspective, I like a 3rd string PG that is exceptionally quick and capable of playing good man-on defense. Even if he's not quite so good at bringing the ball up, you can always have someone else do that for you. And... this is exactly why I was arguing a few years ago for actually having Brewer on our playoff roster. We had absolutely no quickness in the backcourt for defense without him.

But an argument can be made to have a 3rd string PG who is a capable shooter and has adequate abilities in another area, such as ball-handling or defense. I believe this is what Bird believes Diener either is or will become. An adequate ball-handler who will nearly always hit a perimeter shot if left wide open.

Putnam
07-19-2008, 01:01 PM
:crazy:anyone who thinks anybody would make on the summer league must be crazy


I understand the emoticon. After that, the intended meaning gets obscure.

imawhat
07-19-2008, 01:03 PM
He's a shooter if Stephen Jackson's a shooter. He's a chucker with poor shot selection and FGA. Sure, some games he's lights out. But usually he's even worse, and those good games bring his FGA up.... to 31%.


I'm glad we got Jack, but in an alternate universe I would've loved watching Diener develop this year.

I think Travis is a lot like Dunleavy in his shooting. 2 years ago, I thought Mike had good form but had a tendency to drift left/right while shooting. And like Travis, his 3 pt % was 31%. This year, he stopped drifting and either shot it set or stepping directly into his shot, and he was over 42%.


Travis had the SAME exact problem as Mike, and it was a problem he started correcting very, very late in the season (last 5-10 games). Although his % didn't increase over those games, I truly expect Diener to be over 36% this year if/when he gets consistent playing time.

Travis per 36 numbers last year were almost identical (but slightly better) than Kirk Hinrich's, who seems to be a favorite here. And he did it while playing with one good foot.

I really believe he would've developed into a player that's slightly better than Kirk.

Anthem
07-19-2008, 02:12 PM
I'm glad we got Jack, but in an alternate universe I would've loved watching Diener develop this year.
Sure. And he's young, and I expect him to get better. I'm just saying we should be realistic in terms of what he currently brings to the floor.


I really believe he would've developed into a player that's slightly better than Kirk.
Difficult unless he works on his defense. Kirk's D isn't all-world, but it's light-years ahead of Diener's.



EDIT: Honestly, I really like Travis. He's a good kid, and there's no substitute for point guards that can point. But he has some significant weaknesses, too, and those have to be acknowledged. He wouldn't bother me as a backup to a really good PG (hopefully Ford is that guy), but J.Jack gives you all of his strengths and none of his weaknesses. Barring major injury, I just don't see Diener getting minutes this year.