PDA

View Full Version : Foxsports.com Pacers Draft Report Card: D



duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 06:27 PM
Indiana Pacers

First round: Brandon Rush, G-F, 6-6, 210, Kansas (trade)
First round: Roy Hibbert, C, 7-2, 280, Georgetown


Larry Legend did not start off his GM tenure in Indiana very well. Unloading Jermaine O'Neal and his 2-year $40-million deal was necessary, but he didn't get enough in return as T.J. Ford, like O'Neal, is injury prone and could be more trouble than he's worth. He also has yet to prove that he can be an elite-level point guard. Their draft philosophy makes sense for a team that's close to contending, adding Rush and Hibbert a couple of NBA ready players with not a lot of upside. Unfortunately the Pacers are in rebuilding mode and don't have the talent in place to make "solid" picks. Rush's career took a big turn for the worse when he was informed that he was being traded to Indiana instead of playing for Portland. The expectations and role that the Pacers have in mind for him will make it difficult for him to succeed. He is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability, but asking him to be more than that is asking for trouble. Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center. While these picks might look solid in a year, they likely won't appear so solid in 4-5 years when other players they could have taken (like Bayless and McGee) potentially become standouts. Grade: D.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8296690/From-A-to-F,-a-2008-NBA-draft-report-card

I really don't care too much for this assessment.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2008, 06:35 PM
The Bird and the Pacers don't have 4-5 years to wait for "potentially" standouts.

microwave_oven
06-30-2008, 06:37 PM
This is why no one watches Foxnews or Foxsports...

CableKC
06-30-2008, 06:38 PM
I agree his assessment is valid IF the Pacers are looking 2-3 years down the road.....but TPTB want to rebuild now while putting together a team that can compete and make a return to the LEastern Conference Playoffs.

It's possible that getting Bayless could have gotten us there as well....but I doubt that McGee would have gotten us anything other then having a Bench Warmer for the next 2 seasons.

Kuq_e_Zi91
06-30-2008, 06:47 PM
Yeah isn't fox in general known to be a bad place for news of any kind. For example, "the weather today will be sunny and 90." .............Look outside, thunderstorm.

Bball
06-30-2008, 06:51 PM
Is it possible to put a warning in the title to Shade to not open this thread?

JayRedd
06-30-2008, 06:54 PM
Hate on Fox all you want (they certainly deserve it)...This assessment might be painfully correct in 18 months.

duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 06:56 PM
I do go to Fox for my NASCAR news and information before I go anywhere else, but they are always slow and not a very "fully-informational" source.

duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 06:56 PM
Hate on Fox all you want (they certainly deserve it)...This assessment might be painfully correct in 18 months.
Please explain.

Aw Heck
06-30-2008, 07:03 PM
It seems most draft assessments are either very positive or very negative. No gray area. Kinda like this board... So, it's obviously not very clear cut about how well the Pacers did. No one really knows for sure and we won't know until the season picks up.

But as JayRedd said, in 18 months this assessment could be painfully correct. Or it could be hilariously wrong.

CableKC
06-30-2008, 07:08 PM
Please explain.
He means that there is nothing to say that Bayless/McGee don't turn into the next Arenas and Bynum with a full season under their belts and Rush/Hibbert only turns out to be okay...but not spectacular.

We don't know either way since none of the players have played a single minute in the NBA.

Noodle
06-30-2008, 07:08 PM
ESPN had a tv/radio poll on which NBA team had the best draft night, including trades. We were first with 28% of the vote. The Nets were second with 25% of the vote.

Bball
06-30-2008, 07:11 PM
It's hard to take it too seriously when it says we didn't get enough in return for JO. We didn't take on worse contracts and we setup some cap flexibility. We got another 1st round pick. Ford has insurance on his contract. We weren't getting a better deal than this.

JO carried a lot of baggage himself including his own injury history, a bio that will always include the "Brawl", a grande contract, and questions about his output vs that contract (or even 1/2 that contract).

duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 07:13 PM
It's hard to take it too seriously when it says we didn't get enough in return for JO. We didn't take on worse contracts and we setup some cap flexibility. We got another 1st round pick. Ford has insurance on his contract. We weren't getting a better deal than this.

JO carried a lot of baggage himself including his own injury history, a bio that will always include the "Brawl", a grande contract, and questions about his output vs that contract (or even 1/2 that contract).
Yeah, we also have another insurance policy on TJ Ford at the moment...

Jarrett Jack

maragin
06-30-2008, 07:21 PM
I remember seeing this the day after the draft. The main sports sites I check regularly (like ESPN, SI, Yahoo) all gave us very good grades, except Fox.

The only team with a worse grade than the Pacers on Fox was New Orleans, who sold their pick.

Let me recheck our grades...

ESPN: A
FoxSports: D
SI: B+
Yahoo (Dwyer): 10 out of 10
Yahoo (Draft Express): B+

ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftGrades-080627

Indiana Pacers Grade: A
http://espn.go.com/i/teamlogos/nba/lrg/trans/ind.gif (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft/d05/tracker/team?team=ind) Round 1: Brandon Rush (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18881) (13), Roy Hibbert (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=18974) (17)

Round 2: None

Analysis: To evaluate the Pacers, you have to take a step back a day to see how everything unfolded. They traded the chronically injured Jermaine O'Neal and a second-round pick for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, Maceo Baston and the No. 17 pick. That means they added a starting point guard coming off a career year, significant cap space in 2009 and a prospect. Then Indiana swapped No. 11 and Ike Diogu for No. 13 and picked up a solid backup point guard, Jarrett Jack, and a local hero, Josh McRoberts.
So in the course of two days, the Pacers rebuilt their team in a way that improves it now and in the future. The Pacers should be much more exciting to watch with a Ford/Jack/Rush/Mike Dunleavy backcourt. The additions of Hibbert and Nesterovic give them some much-needed size. And with several major expiring contracts, including Nesterovic, Marquis Daniels and Jeff Foster, they'll have some significant trading chips at the trade deadline or real cap space in the summer of 2009.

Kudos to president Larry Bird and general manager David Morway for one of the most sophisticated rebuilding efforts I've seen.

SI: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/marty_burns/06/27/grades/index.html

<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 153, 153);" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="640"><tbody><tr><td class="logo" rowspan="2" width="10%">http://i.a.cnn.net/si/.element/img/2.0/sect/basketball/nba/teampages/logos/pacers_58x47.gif</td> <td class="text" width="90%">B+ Indiana Pacers (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/teams/pacers/)</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="picks" width="90%"> Traded Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, the rights to Roy Hibbert (17) and a player to be determined; traded Ike Diogu and the rights to Jerryd Bayless (11) to Portland for Jarrett Jack, Josh McRoberts and the rights to Brandon Rush (13); Nathan Jawai (41) </td></tr> <tr> <td class="text" colspan="2"> Larry Bird promised changes, and he delivered. All told, the Pacers added seven new players (Jawai is expected to go to Toronto as part of the O'Neal trade). Who knows if it will work, but give Larry Legend credit for trying.</td></tr></tbody></table>
Yahoo (Dwyer): http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Scoring-the-2008-NBA-Draft;_ylt=Atkn4mMQ.6_zJl6vlM4sV0a8vLYF?urn=nba,90 778

Indiana Pacers
Additions: Brandon Rush, Roy Hibbert
Score: 10
It was a bit odd to see the Pacers, finally ensconced in the rebuilding effort we've been begging for since 2006, take two of the most veteran pro prospects out there. You would think they would take flyers on younger players, but the problem was that good younger players just weren't available where the Pacers were picking.
So they picked up cap space and/or expiring contracts to trade this week, picked up a super starting point guard, some backcourt depth, a legit 7-footer, and actually acted like a team going in a singular direction for once. Regardless of the personnel involved, that in and of itself is a huge step.

Yahoo (Draft Express): http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ar3r.DiQtkHyL_t3QogEIWq8vLYF?slug=ys-draftreportcards062808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

INDIANA PACERS (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind/;_ylt=AslU35ZUgL..vBbkKE6TqKcQmNIF)
Picks: Traded Jermaine O’Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120/;_ylt=An1QQ6IcOSVIa6778ML_s_IQmNIF) to Toronto for T.J. Ford (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3711/;_ylt=AmtpselH9zNW1w6egQiyPccQmNIF), Rasho Nesterovic (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3260/;_ylt=AqpMRE9CoQi06GxgLJXkdhUQmNIF) and the rights to Roy Hibbert (No. 17); traded Ike Diogu (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3935/;_ylt=AhYpGPpCy.lmGyJgv2lAwiAQmNIF) and the rights to Jerryd Bayless (No. 11) to Portland for Jarrett Jack (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3948/;_ylt=Al_AV0n2wVWbe2cTIg0y3rwQmNIF), Josh McRoberts (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4314/;_ylt=AkHjiExPSQ48aaG_nW3uczAQmNIF) and the rights to Brandon Rush (No. 13).
Grade: B+
With their backs against the wall, the Pacers managed to land a sweetheart deal by packaging Jermaine O’Neal (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3120;_ylt=AtQodeEttsQFoWgidCpFCHAQmNIF) to the Raptors for T.J. Ford (filling their void at point guard), Rasho Nesterovic (filling their void at center) and the 17th overall pick. This gave them the flexibility to target the best overall player on their draft board and pick up a nice asset in Jarrett Jack with two proven and polished college players: Roy Hibbert and Brandon Rush. All in all, this was definitely a home run draft for Indiana. They are a better team, with better character in the locker room, deeper off the bench and also more flexible financially to go out and continue to add pieces in their rebuilding process.
The one thing we wonder about is whether Jerryd Bayless may develop into enough of a talent to make the Pacers regret trading him after he shockingly fell right into their lap at No. 11. Taking Hibbert over Kosta Koufos is another one we’ll have to wait and see on.


My guess is that the FoxSports guys were in the PD draft thread.

aceace
06-30-2008, 07:27 PM
I tried to find this guys grades for last years draft... removed from his website!

Arcadian
06-30-2008, 07:29 PM
As a Pacer fan I hope things turn out great. I'm not too upset at the picks because in a so-so draft I don't expect to get great players out of the 11th and 17th picks. I think Rush will be serviceable and Hibbert, well, there is always a place for big men. However, I don't share the optimism that we found our future starting SG and C for years to come. TJ is meh. While certainly better than Jack given price, attitude, and where we are at as a franchise I'd prefer to see Jack as our starter.

I think the excite, while certainly justifiable, is more about who isn't going to be in a Pacer uni rather than who is.

BlueNGold
06-30-2008, 07:34 PM
Indiana Pacers

First round: Brandon Rush, G-F, 6-6, 210, Kansas (trade)
First round: Roy Hibbert, C, 7-2, 280, Georgetown


Larry Legend did not start off his GM tenure in Indiana very well. Unloading Jermaine O'Neal and his 2-year $40-million deal was necessary, but he didn't get enough in return as T.J. Ford, like O'Neal, is injury prone and could be more trouble than he's worth. He also has yet to prove that he can be an elite-level point guard. Their draft philosophy makes sense for a team that's close to contending, adding Rush and Hibbert a couple of NBA ready players with not a lot of upside. Unfortunately the Pacers are in rebuilding mode and don't have the talent in place to make "solid" picks. Rush's career took a big turn for the worse when he was informed that he was being traded to Indiana instead of playing for Portland. The expectations and role that the Pacers have in mind for him will make it difficult for him to succeed. He is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability, but asking him to be more than that is asking for trouble. Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center. While these picks might look solid in a year, they likely won't appear so solid in 4-5 years when other players they could have taken (like Bayless and McGee) potentially become standouts. Grade: D.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8296690/From-A-to-F,-a-2008-NBA-draft-report-card

I really don't care too much for this assessment.

I am more than happy to criticize if it's warranted. It's not warranted.

Not sure how someone who is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability can be bad to add to the team...particularly the leading scorer on the national champion. Maybe he wants us to pick up a scrub with poor shooting ability...so the expectations are kept lower. :rolleyes:

Also, he says Hibbert "will be nothing more than a solid center" so it was a mistake to pick him at #17. I will take a solid center at #17, thank you very much!

What is this guy thinking? Oh yes, he's not thinking at all.

Edit: One more thing. Unless JO had a miraculous recovery this season and we trade him one year from now, this is about the best deal we could get for him. It's hard enough to unload his fat contract when he's proven himself to be a part-time player with degrading abilities. Good luck getting a much better deal. Maybe we could have got Lebron...LOL.

duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 07:44 PM
I am more than happy to criticize if it's warranted. It's not warranted.

Not sure how someone who is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability can be bad to add to the team...particularly the leading scorer on the national champion. Maybe he wants us to pick up a scrub with poor shooting ability...so the expectations are kept lower. :rolleyes:

Also, he says Hibbert "will be nothing more than a solid center" so it was a mistake to pick him at #17. I will take a solid center at #17, thank you very much!

What is this guy thinking? Oh yes, he's not thinking at all.

Edit: One more thing. Unless JO had a miraculous recovery this season and we trade him one year from now, this is about the best deal we could get for him. It's hard enough to unload his fat contract when he's proven himself to be a part-time player with degrading abilities. Good luck getting a much better deal. Maybe we could have got Lebron...LOL.
This would have been great for the comments section on that page.

Most of those guys, however, do not know what they are talking about. BlueNGold, you would be out of place! We'll keep you here.

dewman_32
06-30-2008, 07:54 PM
This is why no one watches Foxnews or Foxsports... LOL - you do realize how ridiculous this statement looks when the two have nothing to do with each other right?

Clearly the FOX Sports guys didn't assess the needs of the Pacers or what this does for their future in terms of cap room. For the first time in the past 5 years, I believe the P's are finally headed in the right direction. I could be wrong, but I think this FOX Sports report card could come back to bite them in the arse.

jeffg-body
06-30-2008, 08:09 PM
This is what is expected of Fox Sports.

Roaming Gnome
06-30-2008, 08:50 PM
I needed a good laugh. Honestly, I expected this kind of grade from Kravitz, but was shocked to see it not come from him.

As far as fox sports goes...pst :chuckle:

aceace
06-30-2008, 08:53 PM
The "wayback" machine has an archive. So why not see how Aran Smith graded teams last year after the draft.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070703191233/http://www.nbadraft.net/2007draftgrades001.asp

I would encourage you to review the grades on the Knicks,(A) Celtics (F)

Robertmto
06-30-2008, 09:02 PM
He means that there is nothing to say that Bayless/McGee don't turn into the next Arenas and Bynum with a full season under their belts and Rush/Hibbert only turns out to be okay...but not spectacular.

:pray:

duke dynamite
06-30-2008, 09:14 PM
This is what is expected of Fox Sports.


I needed a good laugh. Honestly, I expected this kind of grade from Kravitz, but was shocked to see it not come from him.

As far as fox sports goes...pst :chuckle:
I just had to post it since it had to do with the team. It steamed me a little, too...

PaceBalls
06-30-2008, 09:30 PM
The "wayback" machine has an archive. So why not see how Aran Smith graded teams last year after the draft.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070703191233/http://www.nbadraft.net/2007draftgrades001.asp

I would encourage you to review the grades on the Knicks,(A) Celtics (F)



LOL this guys take on the Celtics from last year is hilarious!
"The Celtics are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the NBA. Danny Ainge should have been fired long ago, and this team should be run by a GM with the job security to build for the future. Just as he did a year ago, Ainge traded away a top 7 pick, which could have been another building block for the future (Jeff Green, Yi Jianlian, and Brandan Wright were all available). When a GM is in the position where they make moves to save their job so they can win now, they should be fired before going any further. That is, unless the team's overall goal is to fill seats and make money instead of winning championships. As great a player as Ray Allen is, he can make a good team great, but he can't make a bad team great, and the Celtics are too far away to mortgage the future on a 31 year old SG. The decision to go young but hold onto Paul Pierce never made sense, and now they have mortgaged two drafts on winning now, when they are still too far away. 30 year old GM Sam Presti and Seattle fleeced Boston on draft night. "

This guy even gave us a B for drafting Stanko!

Hicks
06-30-2008, 09:40 PM
Sums it up for me. (His grading for last year)

BlueNGold
06-30-2008, 09:54 PM
Nothing more to say after Burtram's post. Good find.

Taterhead
06-30-2008, 10:08 PM
Hate on Fox all you want (they certainly deserve it)...This assessment might be painfully correct in 18 months.

I agree with thier assesment. It doesn't make sense to take the less talented more ready now players when you're rebuilding.

We didn't address most of our major weaknesses thus far.

Character I agree all the guys we aquired have good character, but none of the guys who left had bad character, so it's a wash. All the problems players are still very much here.

Defense I find it comical that a lot of people are making Hibbert and Ford out to be very good defenders. Both these players are going to be defensive liabilities, IMO. I gurantee you Hibbert spends a lot of time on the bench in foul trouble next year, and Ford gets abused on pick and roll and in post-ups.

Overall athleticism For a team that wants to run, we are pretty lacking here. None of our big guys can run and finish. Rush is a solid athlete, but that's definately not his game. Jack is a good athlete, but it's not his game either. We have way too many spot up shooters.

Fan Excitement I understand all/most of the people on this board are truly excited about next year. As am I, I am curious to see how this team performs. But everyone here was going to watch on TV and atleast attend the occasional game regardless. The people who won't be excited are the average fans. They are not anymore likely to attend a game now than before. The only way they start going back to games is wins. And I think this team, as currently constructed is going to struggle early on to do that. With this economy that is getting worse by the minute, the average person is not any more likely to shell out 75-100 bucks to take thier family to a game now than they were before. Especially when they can sit at home and watch just about every game for free, and keep thier money for more important things.

On top of the economy issues, the Fieldhouse was absolutely dead last year. Does anyone believe that Ford and Rush are going to bring in about 3-5,000 fans a game? Does anyone honestly believe there will be a huge surge of season ticket sales just because they traded Jermaine? I seriously doubt it. And that would only make our attendance numbers respectable again. Even though we made some headway in our cap problems, if the teams attendance stinks the management isn't likely to spend it for a few years. Thier #1 goal is to make this team profitable again, IMO.

The one area we improved drastically is PG play. But as Fox said Ford is an injury away and Jack is average. And we did so at a great cost, IMO. I think the organization made some solid moves to help the financial situation, but as far as basketball moves, I am rather pessimistic. But, we'll see what happens the rest of the summer, and I hope I'm wrong.

Taterhead
06-30-2008, 10:18 PM
LOL this guys take on the from last year is hilarious!
"The Celtics are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the NBA. Danny Ainge should have been fired long ago, and this team should be run by a GM with the job security to build for the future. Just as he did a year ago, Ainge traded away a top 7 pick, which could have been another building block for the future (Jeff Green, Yi Jianlian, and Brandan Wright were all available). When a GM is in the position where they make moves to save their job so they can win now, they should be fired before going any further. That is, unless the team's overall goal is to fill seats and make money instead of winning championships. As great a player as Ray Allen is, he can make a good team great, but he can't make a bad team great, and the Celtics are too far away to mortgage the future on a 31 year old SG. The decision to go young but hold onto Paul Pierce never made sense, and now they have mortgaged two drafts on winning now, when they are still too far away. 30 year old GM Sam Presti and Seattle fleeced Boston on draft night. "

This guy even gave us a B for drafting Stanko!

Wasn't that before they landed Garnett, and signed Posey? And I don't think anyone believed Rondo and Powe would play as well as they did either. He didn't say it was a bad move because of Jeff Green being better than Allen, he said it because they were talking of going young which made aquiring Allen a head scratcher.

And you should read up on Barac. He actually played surprisingly well last year and looks like a very good prospect. I just doubt we'll ever be able to bring him over.

CapnBruisin
06-30-2008, 10:30 PM
For this next season Im am going to convince myself we never had the 11th pick and just missed out on Bayless. But using the 13th pick in the draft we got a proven player that can help now and won a championship.

Its just too bad Bayless didnt drop down to us at the 13th pick....

YoSoyIndy
06-30-2008, 10:34 PM
The only thing I like about the article is the writer was willing to give bad grades. It seemed like ESPN's gave all Cs or higher.

Regardless, I don't agree w/ the Pacers assessment. JO's value was clearly shown on the market by several teams. I was happy just getting the first round pick. Rasho and TJ were just nice adds.

Anthem
06-30-2008, 10:46 PM
Meh. I didn't love either trade, and I'd still give us better than a D.

But in terms of JO's value, I'm not sure that we wouldn't have gotten more on draft day instead of dealing 3 days earlier. Ford and at least one other analyst whose name escapes me said that they expected we could get more than Ford/Nesto/#17 for JO.

I'm also not convinced we got the best value possible for Bayless. But I recognize that I'm in the cheap seats, and it's easy for me to criticize. Plus, we at least picked up guys that I like.

idioteque
06-30-2008, 10:52 PM
Wasn't that before they landed Garnett, and signed Posey? And I don't think anyone believed Rondo and Powe would play as well as they did either. He didn't say it was a bad move because of Jeff Green being better than Allen, he said it because they were talking of going young which made aquiring Allen a head scratcher.

And you should read up on Barac. He actually played surprisingly well last year and looks like a very good prospect. I just doubt we'll ever be able to bring him over.

I don't really see that as justifying giving the Celtics or Pacers a good grade or a bad grade, but what you're saying perfectly illustrates why draft grades are an exercise in futility. Maybe there is a player Bird sees coming out next year or even someone already in the league who he wants to be our team's star instead of Bayless. Maybe Rush and Hibbert will play exceptionally well this season, like no one expects (apparently). You can pan a team's draft if you want but pundits forget that the draft is a portion of a team's offseason, not the whole offseason.

As Hicks would say...it's all part of the plan!

Naptown_Seth
06-30-2008, 11:00 PM
Hate on Fox all you want (they certainly deserve it)...This assessment might be painfully correct in 18 months.
It's not like Rush will stop being good in 3 years. So he won't make a huge jump, Bayless doesn't appear to be some mega ace. The ONLY reason I liked the Bayless pick is because he is a solid offensive PG that has the size to actually become the regular PG starter and this team needs that. You downgrade to trying Ford for sure and you add a legit SG to the team. Not exactly a disaster.

This idea that Bayless was Rose in waiting is nuts. MAYBE Bayless becomes that, but then you could say that for DJ or Rush or Hibbert even. Bayless had all season to blow people away and in the end he was picked 11th and AFTER DJ Augustin and Westbrook. Rush started the year at 25th or worse on all the mocks and went 13th, and not only that but no one was surprised he went 13th.

So what's that say about him, that he was expected to be a non-entity in the draft in January and continued to climb the boards week after week. He didn't just do a miracle jump with the title run, he was moving up slowly in JAN and FEB too. Then his workout tour was also getting great reviews. I never knew the guy tilll I watched him play in mid JAN. A few games later and I was hooked. By tourney time I wasn't at all surprised by he, Mario or Arthur.


Hibbert is a risk but it's also the 17th pick and he does have the size and attitude. That's the other part not mentioned, the fact that the Pacers are facing a major PR overhaul and needed not just quality players but also good, solid citizens.

Naptown_Seth
06-30-2008, 11:04 PM
From Draft Express

Taking Hibbert over Kosta Koufos is another one we’ll have to wait and see on.
Taking Hibbert over... maybe.

Taking Hibbert over Koufos is not one I think we have to wait and see on.

purdue101
06-30-2008, 11:13 PM
Yet another fool caught up in the hype of mock drafts and projections as to where players should fall. I don't care how many ppg a player averages...let's look at whether they are a winner or not. Whether they bring the intangibles to the table that are essential to winning.

Bayless is a combo guard, pure and simple.....a SG in a PG's body - ala Iverson, Arenas, and Ben Gordon. Sure they are all nice players. Sure Bayless will probably average 20pts a night at some point in his career, possibly make a few all-star games, have a nice shoe contract, and sell a bunch of jersey's. But when's the last time a team won a championship with a combo guard at the helm???? Last time I checked, AI, Gordon, and Arenas were getting trounced in the first round.

On the flip side, let's look at the dominant teams of the past few years......Detroit, SA, Boston, LA, etc. All these teams won rings and had a well rounded SG who played defense, had good size, had a high basketball IQ, and brought intangibles to the table. Guys like Rip Hamilton and Manu may not have the hype of Arenas and AI, but they have rings....that's a fact. They're winners! Too many people (including myself at one point) get caught up in the hype surrounding players.

If Bayless was so good, why did Arizona not even make the NCAA tourney??? He even had two other 2009 lottery picks on his team (Budinger & Hill) . Anyone watch Arizona play UCLA this year?? Russell Westbrook made him look like a chump on both ends of the court.

Rush has a championship. He may not give you 25 ppg, but he does everything well (kinda sounds like another wing on our roster). The fact that Bird swept up the perfect backup to Ford in the process is icing on the cake. Kudos to him.

Getting Hibbert at 17 was nice. 7'2" 285 pound centers with basketball smarts, solid work ethic, and good character don't grow on trees.

Plax80
06-30-2008, 11:15 PM
Meh. I didn't love either trade, and I'd still give us better than a D.

But in terms of JO's value, I'm not sure that we wouldn't have gotten more on draft day instead of dealing 3 days earlier. Ford and at least one other analyst whose name escapes me said that they expected we could get more than Ford/Nesto/#17 for JO.

I'm also not convinced we got the best value possible for Bayless. But I recognize that I'm in the cheap seats, and it's easy for me to criticize. Plus, we at least picked up guys that I like.

I'm with you on this.

I hated the trade at first , but I'm getting more on board with it as time goes on.

I hated the Brandon Rush trade........and still do, but at least we picked up Jack in the process. I just don't see Rush becoming a premium talent and I don't see him as ever being better than Mike Dunleavy............so what's the point.

I know there was a logjam at F when we took Granger and things changed in a hurry with that one..........but those circumstanes were not manufactured......and this time I think Bird is going to have to make changes just to give Rush an opportunity. And I still say that if you based playing time on merit alone.........Rush would never see the court for at least 2 years while Quis is still here.

Bayless should have been kept .......at least he's only 19..........and he will only be 22 when Ford's deal expires.

Evan_The_Dude
06-30-2008, 11:23 PM
"Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center."

I'm trying to figure out what makes this a bad thing.

Unclebuck
06-30-2008, 11:36 PM
Getting a "solid center" at pick 17 would be a stroke of genius. If that happens Bird should be GM of the year. Usually all the "solid centers" are gone by pick 11

Bball
06-30-2008, 11:42 PM
I've been stuck on the 'solid center' line myself. I'm thrilled to no end if we got a solid center at 17. I'd be thrilled if we got a solid center at about any pick.

-Bball

croz24
06-30-2008, 11:55 PM
trying to rebuild now is the reason we will never win a championship.

dewman_32
07-01-2008, 07:17 AM
trying to rebuild now is the reason we will never win a championship.
Are you saying that Bird should have waited longer to try to rebuild? :confused:

As I've stated, and other have as well, this is a process rebuilding the franchise. It doesn't happen overnight. What Bird did was improve the team now, but more importantly set the P's up for 2 years down the road when they have the cap space to pull in that superstar so many of us covet. We've got some great talent and potential talent on this team. Granger is going to get better, as are Jack and hopefully Ford stays healthy. We've got two great prospects in Rush and Hibbert (I'm cautiously optimistic with Hibbert - I have my doubts), and there's veteran leadership in Dunleavy, not to mention talent. Let these guys play together for a couple of years, then add a solid stud in this league to that roster and see what happens. The key to whether all of this was a success or not will be two years from now after the FA period ends. If Bird doesn't put the P's over the top, then this was a complete waste.

croz24
07-01-2008, 07:40 AM
rebuilding is not a one year process like bird seems to think. judging by his recent trades, he feels he's able to rebuild on the fly while remaining somewhat competitive. that just will not work. where will the top talent come from then? the only way this works is if we capitalize on any and all players who fall into our laps (ex. jerryd bayless). i have 0 faith in bird.

Speed
07-01-2008, 07:45 AM
All of the criticizm really means they didn't trade Granger for 19 year old maybe, right?

dewman_32
07-01-2008, 08:18 AM
rebuilding is not a one year process like bird seems to think. judging by his recent trades, he feels he's able to rebuild on the fly while remaining somewhat competitive. that just will not work. where will the top talent come from then? the only way this works is if we capitalize on any and all players who fall into our laps (ex. jerryd bayless). i have 0 faith in bird.
You're missing the point (there seems to be a lot of that from your past posts). Rebuild is not a one year process, we agree on that, but this isn't "it" for the process. What has been done to this point is not the completion of the rebuild, it is just the beginning. The P's weren't going to get any better carrying JO's hefty salary. He had to go in order for the process to start. And Bayless didn't "fall into our laps", the deal with Portland was done before the draft, so essentially Bayless was never "ours" at any point. The P's had no intention of ever drafting him, hell they didn't even work him out. IMO, they did very well for Bayless. They got a great b/u PG who can start in this league should Ford get injured.

When you look at the big picture, which you aren't currently, I think you'll be impressed with the potential this bring the P's down the road. It's one thing to have zero faith in Bird at this point, but it's another to ignore the reality of what has taken place and what could take place in the future. The future definitely looks brighter today than it did just one week ago. If you can't see that, I'm sorry, but it's there.

2minutes twowa
07-01-2008, 08:47 AM
Indiana Pacers

First round: Brandon Rush, G-F, 6-6, 210, Kansas (trade)
First round: Roy Hibbert, C, 7-2, 280, Georgetown


Larry Legend did not start off his GM tenure in Indiana very well. Unloading Jermaine O'Neal and his 2-year $40-million deal was necessary, but he didn't get enough in return as T.J. Ford, like O'Neal, is injury prone and could be more trouble than he's worth. He also has yet to prove that he can be an elite-level point guard. Their draft philosophy makes sense for a team that's close to contending, adding Rush and Hibbert a couple of NBA ready players with not a lot of upside. Unfortunately the Pacers are in rebuilding mode and don't have the talent in place to make "solid" picks. Rush's career took a big turn for the worse when he was informed that he was being traded to Indiana instead of playing for Portland. The expectations and role that the Pacers have in mind for him will make it difficult for him to succeed. He is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability, but asking him to be more than that is asking for trouble. Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center. While these picks might look solid in a year, they likely won't appear so solid in 4-5 years when other players they could have taken (like Bayless and McGee) potentially become standouts. Grade: D.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8296690/From-A-to-F,-a-2008-NBA-draft-report-card

I really don't care too much for this assessment.

Oh no!:eek: Hibbert's gonna be a solid center!! Oh wait, that's a good thing:D

CapnBruisin
07-01-2008, 10:54 AM
"Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center."

I'm trying to figure out what makes this a bad thing.

Havent centers been taken number 1 overall with the expectations they would just make a solid center?

DgR
07-01-2008, 11:38 AM
i think there are 2 parts to analize in this article

1. the JO trade- there is no question this trade is good for us and there are no question marks whatsoever. even if JO stays injury free next year- this deal had to be done. we got 3 things all rebuilding teams are looking for and we couldn't ask for more than we got

2. the 11th pick trade- I really dont know if this was the right move or not. nor could i know until a few years go by and we'll see how the players develop. I realize we got solid players but what we still need is a leader and a go to guy. this roster is full of great complimentary players at every position but not one great talent we can build around.
last years team came 9th in the eastern conference and improved this summer since we didn't lose a single contributing part to the team in either trade (JO, Ike) and we got some good pieces back. this means we'll most likely be better next year and have a lower pick in the draft. plus, i dont see how were going to get any high caliber free agents anytime soon. this only leaves a trade as an option to get a great talent to Indy- that also probably means gutting the team of the valuable pieces we have.

our future looks much brighter than it did a week ago but if it were up to me- i would still put my money on Bayless becoming a very good player in this league- even if he didn't fit to our system- because teams are always looking for talent, and Bayless has plenty of it. I think we could have enjoyed watching him playing for the Ps and also could have gotten a lot more for him had we waited a couple of years.

we'll have to wait to find out for sure

Trader Joe
07-01-2008, 11:46 AM
The guy for FoxSports also called Landry being a very good pick at 31. So, his opinion is still viable. There weren't a whole lot of people pitching a tent in their pants after the Ray Allen deal.

Arcadian
07-01-2008, 12:06 PM
It isn't an issue of whether or not JO was traded. I agree he needed to be traded and in that sense it was a successful trade. What I question is getting TJ. While I can't guess what trades we could have or couldn't have made, I would have preferred a deal were we got less, such as the rumored Cleveland deal, but would have been better off financially.

As far as passing on Bayless, I'd lean towards taking him in hopes of him becoming a great player. I'm happy with both Rush and Jack. It gives us backcourt depth and defenders. But the picks were conservative and I understand why they were.

Unclebuck
07-01-2008, 01:13 PM
I think TJ Ford is the best point guard we could have gotten for JO (we also got Hibbert and Rasho in the deal)

Are there any point guards better than TJ that were available

count55
07-01-2008, 01:35 PM
I think TJ Ford is the best point guard we could have gotten for JO (we also got Hibbert and Rasho in the deal)

Are there any point guards better than TJ that were available

Other than arguably Hinrich, but I'm not sure if I'm not just giving Hinrich credit for not having a congenital spine condition.

I'm very happy with Ford.

I'm mildly intrigued with Hibbert.

As many on here, I probably would've kept Bayless, but I'm still excited about Rush and Jack.

I'm absolutely ecstatic about the improvement in our financial condition, particularly since it was done while getting some very usable pieces back and without completely gutting the franchise.

ChicagoJ
07-01-2008, 01:39 PM
I think TJ Ford is the best point guard we could have gotten for JO (we also got Hibbert and Rasho in the deal)

Are there any point guards better than TJ that were available

Tinsley.

:devil: :brick:

Arcadian
07-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Baron Davis?

I agree that our pg rotation is much, much improved. I just think that TJ has some baggage in terms of size, contract, injury and attitude.

count55
07-01-2008, 01:50 PM
Baron Davis?

I agree that our pg rotation is much, much improved. I just think that TJ has some baggage in terms of size, contract, injury and attitude.

I seriously doubt that we could've gotten Baron Davis for JO. I believe Buck was saying that Ford was the best we could get with JO, and I think he's probably pretty close to right.

DGPR
07-01-2008, 01:55 PM
What kinds of attitude problems does Ford have?

Arcadian
07-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I agree. He is what we got so it is silly to argue we could have gotten more or less as none of us know what was offered. I would have rather taken less talent and salary if the talent was TJ. But he's a Pacer now I look forward to having a decent pg situation.

He doesn't like sharing the point guard spot. He was moved twice in favor of his back up. Really minor compared to our standard of attitude problems but still a red flag in my book.

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 02:14 PM
The guy for FoxSports also called Landry being a very good pick at 31. So, his opinion is still viable. There weren't a whole lot of people pitching a tent in their pants after the Ray Allen deal.



Im not sure KG would have gone to Boston if it wasnt for Ray being there, and Im pretty sure Ainge knew he would still have the pieces to get someone (Gasol or KG). My point being, the Allen trade was done with the next trade in mind. My best friend is a Celtics fan and I remember us discussing at the time how good the Allen trade was for this very reason.

IF we can get rid of the bad parts (only Tinsley and maybe Shawne/Quis left?) we have on the roster and show this is going to be a fun TEAM to play on then I can see us maybe attracting a good FA in the next 2 years.... We just have to be careful we arent creating cap room just to overpay someone. Blowing 16m on someone like Baron Davis would be a bad idea trust me.


I wasnt sure at first about the JO trade but I liked the draft night trade and what we got in return (a proven backup PG and a prospect 2/3 for a prospect PG/SG and an inside player we will NEVER use). Then again I have only seen one game of Bayless as I only get to watch the tourney over here :P. Rush looked good and Hibbert looked decent last year (not so much this year).

Lets hope Larry's plan turns out as good as Ainge's

The Unknown
07-01-2008, 02:22 PM
I like Ford better than Hinrich. Ford is a legit point guard who can make a team go. Hinrich is not and cannot. Ford is more productive all-around, a couple years younger, and a couple of million dollars cheaper.

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 02:37 PM
I seriously doubt that we could've gotten Baron Davis for JO. I believe Buck was saying that Ford was the best we could get with JO, and I think he's probably pretty close to right.






<TABLE class=statsHeader cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=742 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=gSGSectionTitleStatsGrid width=738>Career Season Averages
</TD><TD width=2>http://www.nba.com/media/homepage/stats_header_lft.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=title><TD class=year>Year</TD><TD class=team>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>GS</TD><TD>MPG</TD><TD>FG%</TD><TD>3P%</TD><TD>FT%</TD><TD>OFF</TD><TD>DEF</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>APG</TD><TD>SPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD><TD>TO</TD><TD>PF</TD><TD>PPG</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>99-00</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>18.6</TD><TD>0.420</TD><TD>0.225</TD><TD>0.634</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>0.2</TD><TD>1.71</TD><TD>2.50</TD><TD>5.9</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>00-01</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>38.9</TD><TD>0.427</TD><TD>0.310</TD><TD>0.677</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>3.4</TD><TD>5.0</TD><TD>7.3</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.76</TD><TD>3.30</TD><TD>13.8</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>01-02</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>40.5</TD><TD>0.417</TD><TD>0.356</TD><TD>0.580</TD><TD>1.1</TD><TD>3.1</TD><TD>4.3</TD><TD>8.5</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>18.1</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>02-03</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>50</TD><TD>47</TD><TD>37.8</TD><TD>0.416</TD><TD>0.350</TD><TD>0.710</TD><TD>1.1</TD><TD>2.6</TD><TD>3.7</TD><TD>6.4</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.80</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>17.1</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>03-04</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>40.1</TD><TD>0.395</TD><TD>0.321</TD><TD>0.673</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>4.3</TD><TD>7.5</TD><TD>2.4</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>3.21</TD><TD>2.70</TD><TD>22.9</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>04-05</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>32.9</TD><TD>0.366</TD><TD>0.321</TD><TD>0.771</TD><TD>0.9</TD><TD>2.8</TD><TD>3.7</TD><TD>7.2</TD><TD>1.7</TD><TD>0.2</TD><TD>2.11</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>18.9</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>04-05</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>35.3</TD><TD>0.401</TD><TD>0.341</TD><TD>0.755</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>3.9</TD><TD>8.3</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>3.32</TD><TD>2.60</TD><TD>19.5</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>05-06</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>54</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>36.5</TD><TD>0.389</TD><TD>0.315</TD><TD>0.675</TD><TD>0.8</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>8.9</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>0.3</TD><TD>2.94</TD><TD>3.10</TD><TD>17.9</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>06-07</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>62</TD><TD>35.3</TD><TD>0.439</TD><TD>0.304</TD><TD>0.745</TD><TD>0.8</TD><TD>3.6</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>8.1</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>3.06</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>20.1</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>07-08</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>39.0</TD><TD>0.426</TD><TD>0.330</TD><TD>0.750</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD>4.7</TD><TD>7.6</TD><TD>2.3</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>2.83</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>21.8</TD></TR><!-- Check if career stats are null first --><TR class=career><TD class=col_1>Career</TD><TD class=col_2>--</TD><TD>608</TD><TD>501</TD><TD>35.5</TD><TD>0.414</TD><TD>0.325</TD><TD>0.692</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>3.0</TD><TD>4.1</TD><TD>7.2</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.77</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>17.1</TD></TR><!-- Check if all stats are null first --><TR class=career><TD class=col_1>All-Star</TD><TD class=col_2>--</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>14.5</TD><TD>0.286</TD><TD>0.111</TD><TD>0.000</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>6.0</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>2.00</TD><TD>0.50</TD><TD>4.5</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


I could be way wrong but doesnt the above make you extremely suspicious? 5 years MLE is more than what he has opted out of... I am in no way saying he will only get MLE (somone will offer him more in a sign and trade or the GSW will just pay him and keep him), but he doesnt lose by opting out unless he has a year like this year again next year.... Like I said, I could be wrong...

I dont think he has opted out to leave GSW, but he will go and prove me wrong now and sign for vets min with the Lakers probably...

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Damn, two posts in one thread! I usually just read.

Im not hating on Baron by the way...

count55
07-01-2008, 02:40 PM
<TABLE class=statsHeader cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=742 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=gSGSectionTitleStatsGrid width=738>Career Season Averages
</TD><TD width=2>http://www.nba.com/media/homepage/stats_header_lft.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class="playerStatTable careerAvg" borderColor=#cccccc cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=title><TD class=year>Year</TD><TD class=team>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>GS</TD><TD>MPG</TD><TD>FG%</TD><TD>3P%</TD><TD>FT%</TD><TD>OFF</TD><TD>DEF</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>APG</TD><TD>SPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD><TD>TO</TD><TD>PF</TD><TD>PPG</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>99-00</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>18.6</TD><TD>0.420</TD><TD>0.225</TD><TD>0.634</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>1.4</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>0.2</TD><TD>1.71</TD><TD>2.50</TD><TD>5.9</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>00-01</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>38.9</TD><TD>0.427</TD><TD>0.310</TD><TD>0.677</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>3.4</TD><TD>5.0</TD><TD>7.3</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.76</TD><TD>3.30</TD><TD>13.8</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>01-02</TD><TD class=tm>CHA</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>40.5</TD><TD>0.417</TD><TD>0.356</TD><TD>0.580</TD><TD>1.1</TD><TD>3.1</TD><TD>4.3</TD><TD>8.5</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>18.1</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>02-03</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>50</TD><TD>47</TD><TD>37.8</TD><TD>0.416</TD><TD>0.350</TD><TD>0.710</TD><TD>1.1</TD><TD>2.6</TD><TD>3.7</TD><TD>6.4</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.80</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>17.1</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>03-04</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>66</TD><TD>40.1</TD><TD>0.395</TD><TD>0.321</TD><TD>0.673</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>4.3</TD><TD>7.5</TD><TD>2.4</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>3.21</TD><TD>2.70</TD><TD>22.9</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>04-05</TD><TD class=tm>NOH</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>32.9</TD><TD>0.366</TD><TD>0.321</TD><TD>0.771</TD><TD>0.9</TD><TD>2.8</TD><TD>3.7</TD><TD>7.2</TD><TD>1.7</TD><TD>0.2</TD><TD>2.11</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>18.9</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>04-05</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>35.3</TD><TD>0.401</TD><TD>0.341</TD><TD>0.755</TD><TD>0.6</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>3.9</TD><TD>8.3</TD><TD>1.8</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>3.32</TD><TD>2.60</TD><TD>19.5</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>05-06</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>54</TD><TD>48</TD><TD>36.5</TD><TD>0.389</TD><TD>0.315</TD><TD>0.675</TD><TD>0.8</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>8.9</TD><TD>1.6</TD><TD>0.3</TD><TD>2.94</TD><TD>3.10</TD><TD>17.9</TD></TR><TR class=""><TD class=yr>06-07</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>63</TD><TD>62</TD><TD>35.3</TD><TD>0.439</TD><TD>0.304</TD><TD>0.745</TD><TD>0.8</TD><TD>3.6</TD><TD>4.4</TD><TD>8.1</TD><TD>2.1</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>3.06</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>20.1</TD></TR><TR class=odd><TD class=yr>07-08</TD><TD class=tm>GSW</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>82</TD><TD>39.0</TD><TD>0.426</TD><TD>0.330</TD><TD>0.750</TD><TD>1.2</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD>4.7</TD><TD>7.6</TD><TD>2.3</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>2.83</TD><TD>3.00</TD><TD>21.8</TD></TR><!-- Check if career stats are null first --><TR class=career><TD class=col_1>Career</TD><TD class=col_2>--</TD><TD>608</TD><TD>501</TD><TD>35.5</TD><TD>0.414</TD><TD>0.325</TD><TD>0.692</TD><TD>1.0</TD><TD>3.0</TD><TD>4.1</TD><TD>7.2</TD><TD>2.0</TD><TD>0.4</TD><TD>2.77</TD><TD>2.90</TD><TD>17.1</TD></TR><!-- Check if all stats are null first --><TR class=career><TD class=col_1>All-Star</TD><TD class=col_2>--</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>14.5</TD><TD>0.286</TD><TD>0.111</TD><TD>0.000</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>6.0</TD><TD>0.5</TD><TD>0.0</TD><TD>2.00</TD><TD>0.50</TD><TD>4.5</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


I could be way wrong but doesnt the above make you extremely suspicious? 5 years MLE is more than what he has opted out of... I am in no way saying he will only get MLE (somone will offer him more in a sign and trade or the GSW will just pay him and keep him), but he doesnt lose by opting out unless he has a year like this year again next year.... Like I said, I could be wrong...

I dont think he has opted out to leave GSW, but he will go and prove me wrong now and sign for vets min with the Lakers probably...

I'm not sure how the response above relates to the post below.


I seriously doubt that we could've gotten Baron Davis for JO. I believe Buck was saying that Ford was the best we could get with JO, and I think he's probably pretty close to right.

2minutes twowa
07-01-2008, 02:42 PM
What kinds of attitude problems does Ford have?

He wants to play. Nothin wrong with that.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 02:59 PM
He wants to play. Nothin wrong with that.

Unless your name is Anthony Johnson. Malcontent is malcontent.

2minutes twowa
07-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Unless your name is Anthony Johnson. Malcontent is malcontent.

True, but can you imagine the frustration Johnson went through. As much as we hate JT, imagine out playing him everyday and still having to back him up. I don't blame him for being malcontent! I think that whole episode was made even worse with Carlisle's babying of Jamal. What happened when JT pulled that same stuff with JOB? He rode the bench for the rest of the year.

The Unknown
07-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Unless your name is Anthony Johnson. Malcontent is malcontent.

Ford has the talent to warrant being a starter and playing 30+ minutes a night. A.J. did not, never has, and never will. Ford's unhappiness is justifiable, Johnson's was not.

Mourning
07-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Ford has the talent to warrant being a starter and playing 30+ minutes a night. A.J. did not, never has, and never will. Ford's unhappiness is justifiable, Johnson's was not.

Given who AJ had to backup and why he was so important to have on the team because of that makes me think otherwise :).

Had to be very frustrating for him. Ford is undenieably much, much better, but that's not the issue.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Tinsley.

:devil: :brick:


You jest but actually over the last four seasons......

Games missed
Ford====129
Tinsley==135

Head to head
Ford===2.0 RPG, 6.8 RPG, 1.0 SPG 8.5 PPG, .394 FG%, .000 3PT%
Tins===2.8 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.3 SPG, 17.3 PPG, .560 FG%, .471 3PT%

Money owed on contracts
Ford $25 mil
Tins $21.5 Mil

What happens when he isn't the starter? (http://www.thestar.com/article/309937)

Since86
07-01-2008, 03:23 PM
You jest but actually over the last four seasons......

Games missed
Ford====129
Tinsley==135

Head to head
Ford===2.0 RPG, 6.8 RPG, 1.0 SPG 8.5 PPG, .394 FG%, .000 3PT%
Tins===2.8 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.3 SPG, 17.3 PPG, .560 FG%, .471 3PT%

Money owed on contracts
Ford $25 mil
Tins $21.5 Mil

What happens when he isn't the starter? (http://www.thestar.com/article/309937)


TJ misses games due to a neck injury, which is insured. Tinsley misses games with sinuspoutis.

There is a big difference.


EDIT: Your numbers are off to begin with.

Last four years games played for TJ: 55, 72, 75, 51. That's a total of 253 games played out of a possible 328. That's a difference of 75 games, not 129.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 03:26 PM
And once again you make up stuff because you don't like Jamaal as a person ( which most on here don't), but the guy has missed two games due to sinus problems.

The fact is many are excited to get a "new' point guard not necessarily a better one.

2minutes twowa
07-01-2008, 03:32 PM
And once again you make up stuff because you don't like Jamaal as a person ( which most on here don't), but the guy has missed two games due to sinus problems.

The fact is many are excited to get a "new' point guard not necessarily a better one.

We don't like him because he quit on the team. I was ready to eat my words at the beginning of the season when JT was playing like an allstar. But in typical Tinsley fashion, he started pouting when when he got a little criticism.

Since86
07-01-2008, 03:47 PM
And once again you make up stuff because you don't like Jamaal as a person ( which most on here don't), but the guy has missed two games due to sinus problems.

The fact is many are excited to get a "new' point guard not necessarily a better one.

I make stuff up? What did I make up? Check you facts about how many game each on misses if you're gonna throw out accusations.

He's missed a hell of a lot more games due to "sinus problems" than two. He's missed enough for that reason that they star ran a story about possible surgery to correct the "problem." We've had many discussions on why he missed those games, and it's been way more than two.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 03:51 PM
We don't like him because he quit on the team. I was ready to eat my words at the beginning of the season when JT was playing like an allstar. But in typical Tinsley fashion, he started pouting when when he got a little criticism.

Did he? or was he injured? Is he a nutcase or an injury prone athlete? We'll probably never know but we do know he lit up both point guards brought in to replace him.

Last season VS. Jack

Tins==7.0 RPG, 9.0 APG, 4.5 SPG, 17.5 PPG
Jack==3.5 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.5 SPG, 9.0 PPG


My argument is only that he is better than the replacements from a basketball standpoint.

To get back to the topic on hand, I'm grouping our draft day trades in with the other high profile trades of the last few years (and the one that will eventually send Tins walking). They've all been about getting rid of someone rather than acquiring talent to make the team better. Addition by subtraction be damned. Maybe not a "D' but no better than average which is what a "C"?

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 03:55 PM
.

He's missed a hell of a lot more games due to "sinus problems" than two. He's missed enough for that reason that they star ran a story about possible surgery to correct the "problem." We've had many discussions on why he missed those games, and it's been way more than two.

This has been discussed before, with links that I will not dig up. There is a website somewhere that lists the reason every NBA player misses a game. Jamaal has officially missed two games in his career that were attributed to his sinus problem. You can speculate all you want about how many were actually because he was too hung over, missed practice, his cocaine habit, he was on the run from gun toting thugs etc... the official report listed two.

2minutes twowa
07-01-2008, 04:01 PM
Did he? or was he injured? Is he a nutcase or an injury prone athlete? We'll probably never know but we do know he lit up both point guards brought in to replace him.

No doubt that JT has more ability than half the PGs in the NBA. If he was motivated he could be an allstar. He said it best himself at the beginning of last season. He said, "If I can't be successful in this system, with this coach, then there's something wrong." That's not word for word, but that was the jist of it.

Since86
07-01-2008, 04:07 PM
I could careless if the official reason he missed a game was because he got his pinky stuck and his ear turned blue. I'm not arguing over the sinus problems, because I doubt he has or ever has had sinus problems.

The fact of the matter is, one day he'll miss a game and we'll get a report then a few days later they'll change up his "injury."

Just like after the PHO game. The report that him and JOB got into it, and JOB suspended him. The suspension came from none other than S. Jackson. Then the Ps are asked and they say they just gave him the day off to rest, AT HOME.

They can put in the official reason as to why he misses 20games for pregnancy. I don't care.

He misses games for suspect reasons, and TJ has a legit medical problem that is actually covered by insurance. Doesn't change the fact you still added missed games to TJ. He's missed 60 games less than Tinsley in the past 4 years. That's well over a total season for Jamaal.

Hicks
07-01-2008, 04:12 PM
I don't trust official listings for why a player is out unless I can see for myself that he's sick or hurting. We used to make stuff up for Artest all the time. Tinsley appeared to me, and to many others, to miss a lot of games due to "illness". Eventually most settled on referring to the sinus issues, but that's not really the point that it was (or not) sinus issues.

McKeyFan
07-01-2008, 04:16 PM
And once again you make up stuff because you don't like Jamaal as a person ( which most on here don't),

I haven't liked Jamaal as a player for five years.

The Unknown
07-01-2008, 04:24 PM
Outside of two fluke bad landings, including the last where 250 lb. Al Horford literally swatted his head like a basketball, Ford has been fine. There's a difference between two unfortunate, legitimate injuries and the nagging, questionable crap Tinsley has had over the years, a lot of which was either faked or a result of being out of shape.

Provided Ford doesn't take any more fluke landings, there's no reason to expect him to miss a significant number of games.

Tom White
07-01-2008, 04:38 PM
I really don't care too much for this assessment.

I really don't care too much for Fox Sports. Period.

count55
07-01-2008, 04:55 PM
This has been discussed before, with links that I will not dig up. There is a website somewhere that lists the reason every NBA player misses a game. Jamaal has officially missed two games in his career that were attributed to his sinus problem. You can speculate all you want about how many were actually because he was too hung over, missed practice, his cocaine habit, he was on the run from gun toting thugs etc... the official report listed two.

http://www.forecaster.ca/cbc/basketball/player.cgi?945

Here is Ford's injury list since 2004:



MOVEMENTS & INJURIES
25-Jun-08 Acquired from the Toronto Raptors. (see analysis)
22-Feb-08 Missed 2 games (wrist injury).
13-Feb-08 Wrist injury, day-to-day.
04-Feb-08 Missed 24 games (back injury).
12-Dec-07 Back injury, day-to-day.
05-Dec-07 Missed 1 game (stinger).
03-Dec-07 Stinger, day-to-day.
30-Nov-07 Missed 4 games (stinger).
21-Nov-07 Stinger, day-to-day.
31-Jan-07 Missed 4 games (right ankle injury).
22-Jan-07 Right ankle injury, day-to-day.
07-Jan-07 Missed 3 games (sprained right ankle).
30-Dec-06 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
31-Oct-06 Signed by the Toronto Raptors to a four-year contract extension.
30-Jun-06 Acquired from the Milwaukee Bucks. (see analysis)
01-Apr-06 Missed 4 games (quadricep injury).
26-Mar-06 Quadricep injury, inactive list.
23-Jan-06 Missed 2 games (hamstring).
20-Jan-06 Hamstring, day-to-day.
07-Jan-06 Missed 4 games (sprained left foot).
29-Dec-05 Sprained left foot, mid-January.
28-Oct-05 Milwaukee Bucks exercised their club option for the 2006-07 season.
20-Apr-05 Missed all 82 games of the regular season (back injury).
01-Nov-04 Back injury, injured list.


and here is Jamaal's



MOVEMENTS & INJURIES
16-Apr-08 Missed the last 33 games of the regular season (sore right knee).
06-Feb-08 Sore right knee, day-to-day.
01-Feb-08 Missed 3 games (sore left knee).
24-Jan-08 Sore left knee, day-to-day.
19-Jan-08 Missed 1 game (sore left knee).
16-Jan-08 Sore left knee, day-to-day.
08-Jan-08 Missed 5 games (hamstring).
29-Dec-07 Hamstring, day-to-day.
21-Dec-07 Missed 1 game (bruised left thigh).
19-Dec-07 Bruised left thigh, day-to-day.
18-Apr-07 Missed the last game of the regular season (elbow injury).
15-Apr-07 Missed 5 games (elbow injury).
06-Apr-07 Elbow injury, day-to-day.
17-Mar-07 Missed 1 game (sore left foot).
14-Mar-07 Sore left foot, day-to-day.
11-Mar-07 Missed 1 game (suspension).
10-Mar-07 Suspended by the Indiana Pacers for one game for conduct detrimental to the team.
02-Mar-07 Missed 1 game (left leg injury).
27-Feb-07 Left leg injury, day-to-day.
24-Jan-07 Missed 1 game (lower back contusion).
22-Jan-07 Lower back contusion, day-to-day.
04-May-06 Missed Game 3, 4, 5 and 6 of Round One against the New Jersey Nets (sore right achilles).
27-Apr-06 Sore right Achilles, day-to-day.
25-Apr-06 Missed the last 3 games of the regular season and Game 1 of Round One against the New Jersey Nets (Achilles tendon).
17-Apr-06 Achilles tendon, day-to-day.
10-Apr-06 Missed 3 games (Achilles tendon).
09-Apr-06 Achilles tendon, day-to-da.
22-Mar-06 Missed 1 game (sinus infection).
21-Mar-06 Sinus infection, day-to-day.
07-Mar-06 Missed 15 games (elbow injury).
27-Jan-06 Elbow injury, day-to-day.
20-Jan-06 Missed 11 games (elbow injury).
30-Dec-05 Elbow injury, day-to-day.
16-Dec-05 Missed 6 games (groin).
02-Dec-05 Groin, day-to-day.
16-Nov-05 Missed 1 game (sinus infection).
12-Nov-05 Sinus infection, day-to-day.
03-May-05 Missed the last 29 games of the regular season and the first 4 games of Round One against the Boston Celtics (bruised left foot).
17-Apr-05 Bruised left foot, injured list.
25-Feb-05 Foot injury, day-to-day.
22-Feb-05 Missed 2 games (bruised left foot).
13-Feb-05 Bruised left foot, day-to-day.
11-Feb-05 Missed 5 games (bruised left foot).
02-Feb-05 Bruised left foot, day-to-day.
14-Dec-04 Missed 3 games (sprained right ankle).
07-Dec-04 Sprained right ankle, day-to-day.
03-Dec-04 Missed 1 game (thigh injury).
01-Dec-04 Thigh injury, day-to-day.
23-Nov-04 Missed 1 game (wrist injury).
20-Nov-04 Wrist injury, day-to-day.
29-Oct-04 Re-signed by the Indiana Pacers to a six-year contract extension


Of the 129 games Ford missed, 106 (82%) of them were attributable to major injuries caused by a specific event. In the two years after he missed the 2004-2005 season, Ford played in 147 of his team's 164 games (90%). After a second specific even resulted in Ford missing 24 games this past season, he returned to play in 34 of his team's final 36 games and all five of their playoff games.

Reviewing the list for Tinsley shows a steady stream of minor, nagging, and day-to-day injuries, almost always costing him games. Even his major injuries (2005 bruised foot, 29 games, 2008 sore knee, 33 games) were injuries that were originally thought to be minor or short-lived, yet lingered.

Regarding the "sinus" infection, yes, there were only two games missed to that. But, let's throw that out. Let's say that each and every game missed was due to a legitimate injury. Even if that is the case, his history shows that he is a player who is too fragile to stay on the floor for extended period of times.

It's a question of reliability. While Ford certainly bears a larger risk vis a vis a catastrophic injury, he has shown himself to be considerably more reliable from a health standpoint than Jamaal. You can count on him to be there and be available significantly more than you can Jamaal.

Regarding ability, it is not unreasonable to say that JT is the most talented of the three you mentioned. However, after seasons of 52,40,42,72, and 39 games played, I don't know how you can even consider his ability. Just as with JO, the talent is useless if you don't know whether it's going to be there on a night-to-night basis.

Shade
07-01-2008, 04:59 PM
When did :kravitz: start writing for Foxsports?

Since86
07-01-2008, 05:00 PM
The biggest question is, will he move back in with his parents? I mean he is only 21, guessing seeing as how he graduated in '05.

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm not sure how the response above relates to the post below.


Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were advocating a move for Baron.... I guess I was also just highlighting my fear of going for these types of players rather than a direct response to what you posted. I meant no offence at all.

count55
07-01-2008, 05:47 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were advocating a move for Baron.... I guess I was also just highlighting my fear of going for these types of players rather than a direct response to what you posted. I meant no offence at all.

None taken...I was just confused.

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 06:02 PM
Hopefully the Tinsley debate will be behind the Pacers soon, and I was once a Tinsley fan.

ChicagoJ
07-01-2008, 06:05 PM
I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm 99% certain that we fans on the internet only know about 1% of the stuff that was going on in general and even less than that for Tinsley, who disdains talking to the hacks at the local newspaper (unlike some of our other idiots who could give a nice, happy "I'm so misunderstood" story to the paper and their gullible fans would buy into it.)

All the speculation on here is merely speculation. I'm fairly certain that Tinsley was both far better and far worse than we give him credit for, at the same time.

It wasn't all that long ago that Tinsley was the guy that the rest of the Pacers would rally around - when he was "on" the rest of the team would really elevate their games and also cover for his defensive weaknesses.

For better or worse, Tinsley has been the real leader that JO wasn't, and when Tinsley would disappear the team was left wandering around aimlessly. His leadership wasn't very focused or effective, but it was filling the leadership void on that dysfunctional roster.

It makes me sad. This is a guy that a decade ago was a high school dropout working on a garbage truck. Basketball was his way out. Its a shame he is wasting that talent.

In all honesty, he hasn't been the same since his mother passed away. I think he's lost. And I think he's more scared of success than failure.

Its not hard to see why he's public enemy #1.

duke dynamite
07-01-2008, 06:24 PM
One way or another, that boy's gotta go.

Rags to riches, sure. But he may have thrown that all away. It's hard to feel sorry for him now.

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 06:27 PM
I would still love him to prove everyone wrong, I have just resigned myself to the fact its not going to happen.

duke dynamite
07-01-2008, 06:30 PM
Who wouldn't want to see one of the players on the team you like succeed? He just has had his chance(s) and blew them.

ChicagoJ
07-01-2008, 06:38 PM
I would still love him to prove everyone wrong, I have just resigned myself to the fact its not going to happen.

Its not going to happen here.

He's needed a fresh start away from the Pacers since 9/3/2003.

I wouldn't be shocked if he turns his life/ approach around somewhere else.

And I wouldn't be shocked if he disappears entirely. After five years, it may be too late to save him.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-01-2008, 06:41 PM
Doesn't change the fact you still added missed games to TJ. He's missed 60 games less than Tinsley in the past 4 years. That's well over a total season for Jamaal.


I'm pretty sure the math is right on that. Jamaal's missed 6 more games in 4 season's, 129 to 135. I think you're overlooking the entire season he sat out with back injuries. We could go back to TJ's whole career and he's played in nine more games than Tinsley in 5 seasons. That includes Ford's rookie year and the one where Rick benched JT for 1/3 of the season.


P.S.
This is why I voted you the poster I'd like to see post more often. I like arguing with you for some reason.


Count, it doesn't matter as much why the games were missed, if they're missing 'em right. They both have missed alot of time over 5 seasons. TJ has missed just as much as JT. If you're not there, you're not there.

JayRedd
07-01-2008, 06:48 PM
And on the insurance thing that everyone seems so confident in...It's only valid if the guy suffers a career-ending injury where he says "Okay...I'm done." And it's not like we get immediate cap relief. It can take a while.

It takes solid year from the day that he admits he will never play again for them to evaluate all the medical info and fill out the forms and run all the paperwork through league offices, insurers investigations and all that red tape. So unless he literally breaks his neck and gets paralyzed or otherwise hurts himself so that he immediately knows -- and then admits -- that his NBA career is over in the first 12 months or so of this current contract, the insurance only helps Herb recoup his losses. It doesn't retroactively go back and allow us to sign a new player during the 12-month paper trail that will occur after he's carried off on a stretcher.

Essentially, from a competitive, salary cap point of view, the insurance isn't much of a safeguard at all.

EDIT: Was looking for the exact definition. Here it is from Larry Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#58


There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is not included in the team's team salary. This is when a player is forced to retire for medical reasons and a league-appointed physician confirms that he is medically unfit to continue playing. There is a waiting period of one year following the injury or illness before a team can apply for this salary cap relief. If the waiting period expires mid-season (on any date prior to the last day of the regular season), then the player's entire salary for that season is removed from the team's team salary. For example, in March 2003 the Knicks were allowed to remove Luc Longley's entire 2002-03 salary from their books (and since the luxury tax is based on the team salary as of the last day of the regular season, the Knicks avoided paying any tax on Longley's salary). This provision can also be used when a player dies while under contract.

Teams are not allowed to trade for disabled players and then apply for this salary cap relief. Only the team for which the player was playing when he was disabled may request this relief.

If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player.

duke dynamite
07-01-2008, 06:50 PM
Its not going to happen here.

He's needed a fresh start away from the Pacers since 9/3/2003.

I wouldn't be shocked if he turns his life/ approach around somewhere else.

And I wouldn't be shocked if he disappears entirely. After five years, it may be too late to save him.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/tlaurenzana/darth_vader_tinsley.jpg

There is still good in him, I know it!

davstarp10
07-01-2008, 06:58 PM
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/tlaurenzana/darth_vader_tinsley.jpg

There is still good in him, I know it!



haha, brilliant... Vader had a few sinus problems too....

Jetman
07-01-2008, 07:13 PM
"He is a defensive standout with solid shooting ability, but asking him to be more than that is asking for trouble. "

What is more than a defensive standout? Supersonic? Astronomic?

A defensive standout with solid shooting skills would be great!!!

Taking Hibbert at 17 was also a mistake as he's limited athletically, and will be nothing more than a solid center.

Yeah, solid centers are a dime a dozen and of no help whatsoever. Wish we could have gotten a super solid center, maybe super dense would have been superlative. Hope this guys predications come true............

duke dynamite
07-01-2008, 07:23 PM
haha, brilliant... Vader had a few sinus problems too....
I think that was a resperatory issue, but close enough.

Thanks!!!

Anthem
07-01-2008, 07:29 PM
True, but can you imagine the frustration Johnson went through. As much as we hate JT, imagine out playing him everyday and still having to back him up.
Put down the pipe, man.

In no way, shape, or form was Anthony Johnson ever better than Jamaal.

Dude didn't even learn how to advance the ball against pressure until his last year in Indy.

Anthem
07-01-2008, 07:32 PM
In all honesty, he hasn't been the same since his mother passed away. I think he's lost.
That's close to word-for-word what I almost posted in another thread.

Great minds think alike.

maragin
07-01-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm 99% certain that we fans on the internet only know about 1% of the stuff that was going on in general and even less than that for Tinsley, who disdains talking to the hacks at the local newspaper (unlike some of our other idiots who could give a nice, happy "I'm so misunderstood" story to the paper and their gullible fans would buy into it.)

All the speculation on here is merely speculation. I'm fairly certain that Tinsley was both far better and far worse than we give him credit for, at the same time.

It wasn't all that long ago that Tinsley was the guy that the rest of the Pacers would rally around - when he was "on" the rest of the team would really elevate their games and also cover for his defensive weaknesses.

For better or worse, Tinsley has been the real leader that JO wasn't, and when Tinsley would disappear the team was left wandering around aimlessly. His leadership wasn't very focused or effective, but it was filling the leadership void on that dysfunctional roster.

It makes me sad. This is a guy that a decade ago was a high school dropout working on a garbage truck. Basketball was his way out. Its a shame he is wasting that talent.

In all honesty, he hasn't been the same since his mother passed away. I think he's lost. And I think he's more scared of success than failure.

Its not hard to see why he's public enemy #1.

I like this post and agree with the sentiments expressed.

Taterhead
07-01-2008, 07:54 PM
And on the insurance thing that everyone seems so confident in...It's only valid if the guy suffers a career-ending injury where he says "Okay...I'm done." And it's not like we get immediate cap relief. It can take a while.

It takes solid year from the day that he admits he will never play again for them to evaluate all the medical info and fill out the forms and run all the paperwork through league offices, insurers investigations and all that red tape. So unless he literally breaks his neck and gets paralyzed or otherwise hurts himself so that he immediately knows -- and then admits -- that his NBA career is over in the first 12 months or so of this current contract, the insurance only helps Herb recoup his losses. It doesn't retroactively go back and allow us to sign a new player during the 12-month paper trail that will occur after he's carried off on a stretcher.

Essentially, from a competitive, salary cap point of view, the insurance isn't much of a safeguard at all.

EDIT: Was looking for the exact definition. Here it is from Larry Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#58

Darius Miles is an good example of this rule. I don't think he played at all this year, but Portland still doesn't get relief until after next year, if I'm not mistaken.

count55
07-01-2008, 09:19 PM
Count, it doesn't matter as much why the games were missed, if they're missing 'em right. They both have missed alot of time over 5 seasons. TJ has missed just as much as JT. If you're not there, you're not there.

Well, I believe why the games are missed are at the crux of the issue, because it speaks to reliability (as opposed to risk).

In the time period I posted, TJ Ford had 10 separate reports of injury, all resulting in at least one missed game. Jamaal had 23 separate reports, with 22 resulting in at least one missed game. If you wish to throw out the 2004-2005 season, where Ford missed in its entirety, removing the possibility of those minor injuries that occur to every player, then the reports drop to 9 for Ford and 16 for Jamaal, all resulting in at least one missed game.

However, if you do that, then the games missed over the last three years would only be 47 for TJ vs. 94 for Jamaal. The perspectives change a little as well. The injury that scares everyone for TJ caused him to miss 24 games, while Jamaal's knee caused him to miss the last 33 games of the season. So, during this time frame, not only was Jamaal significantly more injury prone, but, contrary to popular belief, suffered the most severe injury during that time, at least according to games missed.

My point is that while TJ may be more likely to suffer a serious injury, Jamaal is significantly more likely to suffer injuries in general. I am certainly not contending that TJ is risk free. I am simply saying that I find the lower percentage risk of a more severe injury more pallatable than the constant uncertainty associated with JT. (Which, to point out something, isn't really the right comparision for TJ, but it works the same. The injury risk comparison that was actually used in the decision trade for acquiring TJ was actually vs. JO. The same's true for the contract comparison. The only consideration Tinsley received that impacted our go/no-go decision on the Toronto deal was the acknowledgement that he was never going to be our PG again, and we needed to replace him. In this decision tree, TJ's injury risk is more acceptable to me under the same reasoning as above, and the contract risk is more acceptable than JO's because of it's relative size and structure.)

Another question popped in my head when I was researching this issue. I went back and watched the youtube of the injury this past December:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/psfbRajYaPU&hl=en"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/psfbRajYaPU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That's a pretty nasty hit, and the question dawned on me: Did TJ get injured here because he was TJ with spinal stenosis, or could the injury have occurred to another, otherwise healthy player with similar results. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I just hadn't thought of it.

I looked around on the internet and couldn't find anything, so I went to the Toronto board on RealGM and asked the question. The general consensus that I was getting early was that it was probably too much of a coincidence for his condition not to be a contributing factor, but that the hit was nasty enough for it not necessarily to be the sole cause. There's probably not a clear, reliable answer in the thread, but it was interesting to get a different perspective. It seems to me that the injury/risk was not a huge concern to the folks in Toronto.

Anyway, if you want to see a different perspective on TJ and his injury, here's the link:


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=16852094#p16852094

And, ending on a positive not for all of us, I'd like to show the injury history I wish all of our players had:


MOVEMENTS & INJURIES
29-Feb-08 Suspended for one game for striking Chicago's Andres Nocioni in the face during a Feb. 27 game.
12-Oct-07 Indiana Pacers exercised their club option for the 2008-09 season.
07-Jul-05 Signed by the Indiana Pacers to a multi-year contract

Since86
07-02-2008, 01:33 PM
I'm pretty sure the math is right on that. Jamaal's missed 6 more games in 4 season's, 129 to 135. I think you're overlooking the entire season he sat out with back injuries. We could go back to TJ's whole career and he's played in nine more games than Tinsley in 5 seasons. That includes Ford's rookie year and the one where Rick benched JT for 1/3 of the season.


P.S.
This is why I voted you the poster I'd like to see post more often. I like arguing with you for some reason.


Count, it doesn't matter as much why the games were missed, if they're missing 'em right. They both have missed alot of time over 5 seasons. TJ has missed just as much as JT. If you're not there, you're not there.

Yes, I didn't look at years, only the past listed seasons games played/started.

But come on, he sat out an entire year and still hasn't missed more games than Tinsley has. While it doesn't speak anything for TJ's durability, atleast he has a bonafide reason for it. And again, one that is actually covered by insurance.

Tinsley misses games, and doesn't even sit on the bench for who knows what reason.

The Unknown
07-02-2008, 02:05 PM
I'd also like to point out that Ford was medically cleared to return much sooner this past season, yet remained out A) just to be safe, and B) for psychological reasons.