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granger33
06-29-2008, 10:22 AM
By Larry Bird | June 28, 2008
I wish I could tell you everything we did to make the team better during the NBA Draft Thursday night but I can tell you this: We have a brighter future today than we did a few weeks ago.

There's a lot of media speculation about trades involving our team and our draft picks but, because of some of the league's procedural and salary cap rules, the teams involved are prohibited from discussing anything until all the final details are ironed out. The NBA has a moratorium on announcing transactions from July 1 through July 8, meaning the earliest we could say something officially is July 9.

Regardless of the technicalities, we're very happy with what we were able to do. We made some strides in terms of talent, athleticism, experience, maturity and depth. We also added players that can get up and down the court and should really fit in well with Jim O'Brien's system. Any time you're able to pick up talent, to get pieces you can move forward with, I think that's a plus for the franchise.

We're going to try to be active the rest of the summer. There's some areas we think we need filled, but in some positions we're pretty strong. I know we've got a lot of things to do and we've got some ideas, so hopefully, some of them will go through for us.

We're also changing the culture of the team. If you look at some of the players mentioned in the trade reports, they're a little bit older, they went to school for a few years and that's part of the change: more mature guys, some experience and getting guys we think can come in here and play right away.

Even though we still have some work to do, we are heading in the right direction.

Ignite the Passion. Restore the Pride.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_column_080628.html

I like hearing this from Larry Bird. I think he has another trade in the works. Sounds very positive about this franchise. He has moved this so quickly, i am so suprised. Good on ya Larry.

Swingman
06-29-2008, 11:00 AM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_column_080628.html

I like hearing this from Larry Bird. I think he has another trade in the works. Sounds very positive about this franchise. He has moved this so quickly, i am so suprised. Good on ya Larry.

The July part was about TJ Ford trade not being official until next month.

Bird saying he still has work to do could mean anything but looks like another trade is likely.

Shade
06-29-2008, 01:31 PM
I would hope there are more moves on the horizon. Our front court is a joke. Especially at the 4.

Tinsley will probably be bought out.
Quis will likely be traded.
Foster, Rasho, and/or Shawne may be traded as well.
There's a chance we may move Dun, but I don't think teams will give good enough value for him right now. Despite last season, he probably still has a stigma about him from his GS days.

duke dynamite
06-29-2008, 01:37 PM
I know this is just gossip, but I ran into another STH here where I live, and her husband grew up with Larry and are still very great friends. She told me that she has a lot of the "inside info" (still, it's hard to take it either way), but she told me that Larry really likes Mike and will not consider letting him go.

She also said that at times, however, they do not quite get along very well, and Larry tries to push Dunleavy in another direction with his game. But as of late that has changed.

Just thought I would share that little tid bit for you guys.

McKeyFan
06-29-2008, 02:10 PM
I would hope there are more moves on the horizon. Our front court is a joke. Especially at the 4.

Tinsley will probably be bought out.
Quis will likely be traded.
Foster, Rasho, and/or Shawne may be traded as well.
There's a chance we may move Dun, but I don't think teams will give good enough value for him right now. Despite last season, he probably still has a stigma about him from his GS days.

Man, shade, I think you are looking at the glass half empty.

I mean, take a look at what we DID do. We picked not one, but two point guards better than anyone we had. We picked up a champion shooting guard, the first pure 2 guard since Reggie retired. We drafted someone who can possibly fill our hole at 5 in a very short time.

Three out of four ain't bad.

Shade
06-29-2008, 02:14 PM
Man, shade, I think you are looking at the glass half empty.

I mean, take a look at what we DID do. We picked not one, but two point guards better than anyone we had. We picked up a champion shooting guard, the first pure 2 guard since Reggie retired. We drafted someone who can possibly fill our hole at 5 in a very short time.

Three out of four ain't bad.

So far, all we've really done is shift our deficiencies from the back court to the front.

I mean, Murphy, Baston, and McRoberts? I don't think we could have a worse PF rotation if we tried. And I like Baston.

As currently constructed, this is maybe a marginally better team than last season. We need to make more moves (hopefully, good ones). But we have some decent trading pieces in Quis, Foster, and Nester to do just that.

Bball
06-29-2008, 02:17 PM
Man, shade, I think you are looking at the glass half empty.

I mean, take a look at what we DID do. We picked not one, but two point guards better than anyone we had. We picked up a champion shooting guard, the first pure 2 guard since Reggie retired. We drafted someone who can possibly fill our hole at 5 in a very short time.

Three out of four ain't bad.

Is our frontcourt really any worse than it was last year? Ike couldn't get off the bench. Harrision...well....
And lastly JO. He was a shell of his former self when he did play, and he once again missed a ton of games and wasn't exactly a powerful juggernaut when he did play.

We've balanced the roster, added flexibility, certainly fixed the backcourt on paper, and actually got a significant portion of the fanbase paying attention again. And we added Hibbert to the frontcourt as part of that roster balancing.

We weren't going to be a championship team the morning after the draft no matter what... but we're in a LOT better shape than we have been on several fronts for quite some time.

-Bball

Shade
06-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Is our frontcourt really any worse than it was last year? Ike couldn't get off the bench. Harrision...well....
And lastly JO. He was a shell of his former self when he did play, and he once again missed a ton of games and wasn't exactly a powerful juggernaut when he did play.

We've balanced the roster, added flexibility, certainly fixed the backcourt on paper, and actually got a significant portion of the fanbase paying attention again. And we added Hibbert to the frontcourt as part of that roster balancing.

We weren't going to be a championship team the morning after the draft no matter what... but we're in a LOT better shape than we have been on several fronts for quite some time.

-Bball

The only reason were we even in contention to make the playoffs is because JO came back late in the season. Harrison played well at times as well. Ike was never a serious factor.

But, yes, our front court is worse now than it was last season. Our back court, however, is much better. But this team will still struggle to stay above .500 without any further moves.

idioteque
06-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Bball hit the nail on the head.

As of now, our frontcourt this year will be about as good as it was last year. Which means it is below average, but not atrocious. I mean we won 36 games, so you can't say it was the worst in the league necessarily.

We are better off improving the front court ONLY if we see a viable long term option available. There is no point adding a band aid.

Kegboy
06-29-2008, 02:31 PM
How many of those 36 wins were with JO playing?

idioteque
06-29-2008, 02:38 PM
We were 19-23 with JO last year.

Which makes us 17-23 without him.

So yeah, our record with JO in the frontcourt is only slightly better.

tadscout
06-29-2008, 02:43 PM
From SI's Chris Mannix:


O'Neal may just be the first domino to fall in Indiana. Sources say Indiana was willing to trade everyone but small forward Danny Granger at the deadline. "They made it clear they were willing to blow it up," a Western Conference executive said. Contrary to reports, front-office sources say the Pacers have been shopping forward Mike Dunleavy -- who is owed $29.3 million over the next three seasons -- while showing some reluctance to part with center Jeff Foster, who is considered a favorite of coach Jim O'Brien.

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/06/25/oneal.trade/?eref=sircrc)

At the draft party I heard a rumor (from a sales rep) of a three-way consisting of (only main pieces, obviously more players would be needed...) -

Shawn Marion to Pacers
Elton Brand to Miami
Mike Dunleavy to LAC

Bball
06-29-2008, 02:51 PM
How many of those 36 wins were with JO playing?

The Pacers went 8-7 in March and IIRC ONeal returned for the last March game.

The Pacers went 5-3 in April.

I'm not sure if he played every game after he returned or not.

The Pacers went 3-5 in January before JO opted to sit out the next 33 games.

I have no idea if there were individual games in there prior to that he might've sat out (or more aptly I should say I don't know specific individual games he missed).

We were 15-17 heading into January so we were 18-22 prior to his sitting, but again I have no idea what games individually he might've missed in that period.

We were 5-14 without JO in the rest of Jan and Feburary but did pick it up considerably for March and actually played a game above .500

imawhat
06-29-2008, 02:56 PM
I've been trying to cool down since the draft for "trading" Bayless, but other than that, I LOVE what Larry has done so far.

I've thought differently about Larry than most people. When it comes to trades, I think Larry had been too patient, constantly stating he'd make a deal if it were right for the franchise.

Remember when we got Stanko? I thought we were getting a first rounder from Larry's pre-draft comments, but I imagine that Larry didn't see a good deal and was unwilling to move too much.



This year, we've received a promise that we'd be active and Larry has delivered. Here are the positives:

-We traded a player who I thought was untradeable, helped our PG position, made Tinsley expendable, got a serviceable Center, and if he pans out, got a good draft pick out of it.

-Drafted a very good player in Rush and was able to really strengthen our PG position without giving up a lot.

-Got us good trading chips. We now have young players with potential and a low salary (Jack, Diener, Williams, Granger, Graham, Rush, Hibbert) that can be packaged with reasonable but expiring contracts (Daniels, Nesterovic) and/or players with value but less attractive contracts (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster). I believe a combination of the three (though there are players I obviously would not trade unless we got the right deal) could land us a high quality player because a team would get a lot more in return.

-Our backcourt is significantly better.

-Our perimeter defense is better.

-Aside from Ford who is a risk, we have more reliable players (btw, Ford is extremely tough, despite the neck problems)




I know Larry says more is to come, but I'm not expecting anything until the trade deadline (aside from a Tinsley buyout). If he trades Tinsley, he will have traded two untradeable players.

Kegboy
06-29-2008, 03:17 PM
I just checked, and we were 19-23 with Jermaine, and 17-23 without.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jermaine_oneal/game_by_game_stats.html

Shade
06-29-2008, 03:22 PM
From SI's Chris Mannix:



Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/06/25/oneal.trade/?eref=sircrc)

At the draft party I heard a rumor (from a sales rep) of a three-way consisting of (only main pieces, obviously more players would be needed...) -

Shawn Marion to Pacers
Elton Brand to Miami
Mike Dunleavy to LAC

I would literally crap my pants if that happened. But why the holy hell would the Clips trade Brand for Dun?

diamonddave00
06-29-2008, 03:32 PM
Its not going to happen but Mike Dunleavy, Jeff Foster and Shawne Williams to Clipper with Shawn Marion coming here with Elton Brand going to the Heat works salary wise.

But like I said its not happening. You could even add Marquis Daniels to Heat and Udonis Haslem here.

Infinite MAN_force
06-29-2008, 03:44 PM
I think Hibbert is going to fill the "role" JO tried to fill last year better than JO. Defensive anchor, and a guy you can run the offense through in the post who can pass out of the double team. JO only gave us about 14/7/2/2 last year. These are the kind of numbers I would expect from Hibbert(maybe not right away, but eventually), except he would probably play the entire season.

I think we dramatically improved the backcourt, and the frontcourt stayed about the same.

Ownagedood
06-29-2008, 06:21 PM
I think some of you need to not worry about the "front court" so much.. Our front court is STRONGER then it was last year, ya, I went there.. We have Hibbert, whom is a defensive and rebounding stud (Basically a JO, just not polished), Nesterovic is a legit 7 footer and better then any center we had last year.. The PF position is a bit weak, but move foster and murphy down there and it doesn't look so bad anymore.. I truly believe that our front court is better then last year, which isnt saying much, it still is weak, but it is getting better. And our back court is much better then last year. I'm finally starting to get my thinking straight after the crazyness that calls itself Jaryd Bayless.. I wish we would have kept him, but at the same time, it was an equal trade.. And we probably have a brighter future because of it.

Shade
06-29-2008, 06:46 PM
We have Hibbert, whom is a defensive and rebounding stud (Basically a JO, just not polished)

Um...no. Hibbert is nothing like JO. Roy is much slower, a much weaker rebounder, and a much weaker scorer. He's not even as strong of a shot-blocker (yet), and that's Roy's main strength.


Nesterovic is a legit 7 footer and better then any center we had last year...Nester is essentially a taller Foster that can't rebound as well, but has a marginally better offensive game.


The PF position is a bit weak, but move foster and murphy down there and it doesn't look so bad anymore...No, it still looks really, really bad down there.

Foster and Nester are too redundant to play together, and Roy and Troy are too slow to play together.


I wish we would have kept him, but at the same time, it was an equal trade.. And we probably have a brighter future because of it.It really, really was not an equal trade. :(

Isaac
06-29-2008, 06:47 PM
Foster is naturally a power forward, and I don't think a Foster/Murphy rotation at the 4 is that terrible.

Hibbert/Rasho will be a very solid combination of two true centers, which we haven't had in a very long time.

People are underestimating Rasho, he is a very solid defender who is capable of scoring a little bit and doesn't make many mistakes.

Overall we drastically improved our point guard situation, drastically improved our center situation, improved the shooting guard spot by getting Rush, and we get to shift Jeff to his natural position.

Shade your Bayless love is blinding you from the great work we've done so far.

avoidingtheclowns
06-29-2008, 07:21 PM
At the draft party I heard a rumor (from a sales rep) of a three-way consisting of (only main pieces, obviously more players would be needed...) -

Shawn Marion to Pacers
Elton Brand to Miami
Mike Dunleavy to LAC


clearly the nba knew dunleavy's status was sky-rocketing to fringe all-star level in NOLA last feb


http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__2/ept_sports_nba_experts-601911732-1203137435.jpg?ymc._6.CPE7H8N7C



Saturday, Feb 16, 2008 12:26 am EST

BDL in the Easy: The NBA respects Mike Dunleavy Jr.
By J.E. Skeets

You can’t really tell from the picture, but this Mike Dunleavy (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3601/) Jr. poster had to have been nearly 20 feet tall. Other, similar, posters at the NBA Jam Session featured the mugs of LeBron James (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3704/), Steve Nash (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3103/), Dwyane Wade (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3708/), Kobe Bryant (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3118/), Yao Ming (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3599/), Chauncey Billups (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3174/), Tim Duncan (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3173/) ... um, yeah, I’ll just stop there. Poor Lil' Dun. What an evil, evil prank.

More photos and notes from Friday's Jam Session and D-League Dream Factory -- yes, you convinced me (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/BDL-in-the-Easy-Decisions-decisions-?urn=nba%2C67053) -- coming tomorrow/later today depending on your time zone. Good night/good morning.


LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/BDL-in-the-Easy-The-NBA-respects-Mike-Dunleavy-?urn=nba,67069)

McKeyFan
06-29-2008, 08:39 PM
From SI's Chris Mannix:



Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/chris_mannix/06/25/oneal.trade/?eref=sircrc)

At the draft party I heard a rumor (from a sales rep) of a three-way consisting of (only main pieces, obviously more players would be needed...) -

Shawn Marion to Pacers
Elton Brand to Miami
Mike Dunleavy to LAC

I'll just make that a two-way trade and take Elton Brand, thank you.

Anthem
06-29-2008, 08:50 PM
I'll just make that a two-way trade and take Elton Brand, thank you.
No doubt.

YoSoyIndy
06-29-2008, 08:53 PM
It really, really was not an equal trade. :(

I'm surprised you love Bayless so much. He's a 2-guard in a stocky point-guards body. He's not a fantastic defender and isn't ready to start out the gate.

We get rid of Ike, get a solid backup PG who can actually play defense, and get the player we wanted to draft anyway at #11.

Out of curiosity, would you have been as upset if we drafted Augustin and traded him? I believe Rab from the Star said the deal was pre-arranged w/ DJ or Bayless.

Shade
06-29-2008, 09:07 PM
I'm surprised you love Bayless so much. He's a 2-guard in a stocky point-guards body. He's not a fantastic defender and isn't ready to start out the gate.

We get rid of Ike, get a solid backup PG who can actually play defense, and get the player we wanted to draft anyway at #11.

Out of curiosity, would you have been as upset if we drafted Augustin and traded him? I believe Rab from the Star said the deal was pre-arranged w/ DJ or Bayless.

Nope, because:

1) Augustin isn't as talented as Bayless;
B) Augustin would be redundant on our team with TJ Ford.

BlueNGold
06-29-2008, 09:11 PM
I don't think our front court is worse off at all because JO was a non-factor.

Rasho was tearing it up at the end of last year once he got some minutes. He *averaged* in the teens the last two months of the season and 4 of his last 8 regular season games were over 20pts. More important, he was hitting for a high percentage unlike our previous superstar. In fact, for the season he shot 55% from the floor and 75% from the line...on a better team.

Hibbert adds a new dimension to this team. His game is nothing like any other player on the Pacers and will complement anyone except Murphy I suppose. Maybe that combo is too slow to be out there together. What I like about Hibbert though, is he will hopefully relieve Foster and the other bigs from having to bang with the bigger centers. That should keep Foster's legs fresh to go after the boards...and with Hibbert blocking out, Foster should dominate the boards.

So, no, I don't think we are worse off. Ike is not as good as Rasho...and it's not close. In fact, Granger could probably play PF just as well. JO is a loss, but I have difficulty even considering him as a factor. When he played, he was a shell of himself and with his knees and age at this point, there's not a whole lot of shelf life left....particularly when he was going to leave anyway.

Yes, we upgraded the back court dramatically and at least held serve in the front court.

will567
06-29-2008, 09:25 PM
I am starting to come around to Hibbert as are center! His size is a factor and I have heard he has a great work ethic and desire to improve that could make him a better player then we thought by the end of the year. I am also interested to see him and Foster paired together and see if that works. Do you think Hibbert is the starting Center after training camp?

Ownagedood
06-29-2008, 09:57 PM
I am starting to come around to Hibbert as are center! His size is a factor and I have heard he has a great work ethic and desire to improve that could make him a better player then we thought by the end of the year. I am also interested to see him and Foster paired together and see if that works. Do you think Hibbert is the starting Center after training camp?
Ya, im excited about him too.. BUT, no, he won't be the starter.. Rasho is to experienced. He should turn into a very solid player and eventually a starter.. Just a matter of time when that will occur.. But I highly doubt its any sooner then mid season.

Shade
06-29-2008, 10:24 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about seeing this new team (even moreso if we shore up our front court deficiencies). But I can't help but think about what might have been...

Ownagedood
06-29-2008, 10:26 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about seeing this new team (even moreso if we shore up our front court deficiencies). But I can't help but think about what might have been...
Ya, I'm bummed about it too.. Especially if Jack is no good.. But it probably makes our chemistry and locker room much better, he seems like he talked about himself a little too much even though he does have room to talk.

Im with you shade.. I'm excited about this next year.. But would have been much more excited having a potential superstar on our team.. Rush is good.. But I wish we would have asked for more.. Like Frye.. and a pick.. Instead of Jack.

SoupIsGood
06-29-2008, 10:28 PM
Shade, I get that Bayless was a great prospect, I kinda wanted to keep him too... but the way you talk about him it's like he's already Gilbert Arenas. I just don't understand that.

Shade
06-29-2008, 10:37 PM
Shade, I get that Bayless was a great prospect, I kinda wanted to keep him too... but the way you talk about him it's like he's already Gilbert Arenas. I just don't understand that.

All I can do is speculate based off of what I've seen. And I've seen enough of Bayless to know that I was bouncing off the walls for a reason when we drafted him.

Gamble1
06-29-2008, 10:44 PM
I believe Bayless is slower than Gilbert or AI. Sure he has potential but why would so many people pass on him if he had NBA potential with NBA character.

I am not a fan of the tweener pg/sg because they are so hard to build around and I don't trust Larry to know how to build around such guys.

In any case we got high character guys with potential to becoming quality starters. All in all I am happy.

BlueNGold
06-29-2008, 10:51 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about seeing this new team (even moreso if we shore up our front court deficiencies). But I can't help but think about what might have been...

I was really upset and am not the type to rationalize away the opportunity to get more talent here. If I had to make a bet, I would be comfortable saying that we traded away the best available talent....which supposedly you are supposed to pick.

But the Pacers are in a different mode at the moment. The team needs to heal and does need to be careful about bringing in malcontents at this point. Whether Bayless is a great player or not, IDK. I think passing on him is just another piece of flesh we had to give up to get past the Artest/Jackson/Tinsley era. We just are in no position to take that risk. Let's look to take some risks next year or a couple years from now once the wounds are healed and the team is headed back uphill.

Infinite MAN_force
06-29-2008, 10:54 PM
Um...no. Hibbert is nothing like JO. Roy is much slower, a much weaker rebounder, and a much weaker scorer. He's not even as strong of a shot-blocker (yet), and that's Roy's main strength.

Nester is essentially a taller Foster that can't rebound as well, but has a marginally better offensive game.




A taller Foster with some offense sounds like an upgrade to me. Certainly an upgrade to Harrison or Diogu.

You are also comparing Hibbert to the "old" JO. The JO from last year was gone half the season and played way below his old standards.

Hibbert is a true center and a truely big defensive presence, and will probably give you offense on par with what we got from JO last year, except it will be way more efficient. I like 60% better than 43% from a bigman. He is also probably a better passer even.

Even if he does not run the floor very well, he fits the role Obrien wanted JO to play last year better than JO. You don't generally run a 5 man fast break anyway.

Hicks
06-29-2008, 11:05 PM
I was really upset and am not the type to rationalize away the opportunity to get more talent here. If I had to make a bet, I would be comfortable saying that we traded away the best available talent....which supposedly you are supposed to pick.

But the Pacers are in a different mode at the moment. The team needs to heal and does need to be careful about bringing in malcontents at this point. Whether Bayless is a great player or not, IDK. I think passing on him is just another piece of flesh we had to give up to get past the Artest/Jackson/Tinsley era. We just are in no position to take that risk. Let's look to take some risks next year or a couple years from now once the wounds are healed and the team is headed back uphill.

In addition, our lack of talent last season was not just in our deficit of star power, but in our paucity of DEPTH as well. We've address the latter this summer.

McKeyFan
06-29-2008, 11:22 PM
Ya, I'm bummed about it too.. Especially if Jack is no good..

Dude. Jack is good.

He's played a few years already and proved himself, unlike Bayless. Jack is a solid player and a known quantity. And he is a player we have desperately been needing for about two to five years, depending on your viewpoint.

McKeyFan
06-29-2008, 11:27 PM
In addition, our lack of talent last season was not just in our deficit of star power, but in our paucity of DEPTH as well. We've address the latter this summer.

Paucity?

That's an "and 1" for you.

wintermute
06-29-2008, 11:52 PM
But the Pacers are in a different mode at the moment. The team needs to heal and does need to be careful about bringing in malcontents at this point. Whether Bayless is a great player or not, IDK. I think passing on him is just another piece of flesh we had to give up to get past the Artest/Jackson/Tinsley era. We just are in no position to take that risk. Let's look to take some risks next year or a couple years from now once the wounds are healed and the team is headed back uphill.

agreed with this. sooner or later we'll have to take the risk to grab star talent, but it doesn't have to be this draft.

in truth, prospects like bayless come around every year. if you buy into the draft hype that is :p

Shade
06-30-2008, 12:46 AM
agreed with this. sooner or later we'll have to take the risk to grab star talent, but it doesn't have to be this draft.

in truth, prospects like bayless come around every year. if you buy into the draft hype that is :p

I'm really starting to wonder how many people around here have actually seen Bayless play...

Indra
06-30-2008, 02:18 AM
I'm really starting to wonder how many people around here have actually seen Bayless play...

Here's my feelings on the whole situation. Bear this in mind: I've seen very little of Bayless or Rush. I'm not a college basketball kind of guy, so my opinion may mean very little to you.

I was ecstatic to see Bayless fall to us, and was heartbroken to hear we'd traded him. I'd seen him going very high in mock drafts and thought, "We lucked out to have a top 5 talent fall into our laps!" But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that there had to be a reason he fell to us, especially when other teams needed a PG so badly. The Knicks, for one. I'm sure an organization like the Knicks, and Donnie Walsh would have loved to steal that one, but they passed on him. There must be a reason so many other teams did too.

We picked up a guy in Rush who fits into his role on the team, can shoot the lights out, plays very good perimeter defense (which is something I saw several people on this board bemoaning), and will fit well into our style. We've got a true SG, one like we haven't seen since Reggie retired. Plus we got rid of an injury plagued Diogu.

Overall, I think we made a lot of strides in the right direction. If we suck this year, we'll be able to pick up a star PG next year in the draft. From everything I've heard about Bayless, he was an exceptional athlete, but not a true 1. I have faith in the organization to find the best player for our needs at PG, and I don't think Bayless was it. We need proven guys one our team, and we need character. Rush fits both of those, as well as TJ Ford.

This isn't our last draft, nor is it our last chance to pick up talent. Another Bayless will come along, he isn't Michael Jordan. He's not a once in a lifetime talent. This all, of course, is IMHO.

imawhat
06-30-2008, 02:45 AM
I'm really starting to wonder how many people around here have actually seen Bayless play...

Not many, apparently.

I'm completely blown away by the rationalization on him "not being ready" and is an "unknown" because he hasn't played an NBA game, as if that's different from Brandon Rush, or LeBron James for that matter. Or the rationalization on why he fell in the draft as a legit reason as to why there's something wrong with him. Has anyone bothered to look at any past draft board? There are huge mistakes made by experienced GMs every year....lots of them.

How anyone could not see where Bayless is headed is beyond me. He's 19 and he's already NBA ready. He has the will and drive to be great. And I would take on an attitude; every team has room for one. Spurs had Jackson and Horry. Lakers had Kobe. Pistons had Rasheed. Heat had Walker. etc. etc. etc. And you could have Bayless at a discounted rookie contract (#11 price tag as opposed to #2, where he was projected as late as draft night).


I LOVE Brandon Rush, and I even think he'll be better than anyone is expecting him to be, BUT he's not Bayless. Bayless won't fail based on pride and work ethic alone.

spazzxb
06-30-2008, 03:10 AM
Not many, apparently.

I'm completely blown away by the rationalization on him "not being ready" and is an "unknown" because he hasn't played an NBA game, as if that's different from Brandon Rush, or LeBron James for that matter. Or the rationalization on why he fell in the draft as a legit reason as to why there's something wrong with him. Has anyone bothered to look at any past draft board? There are huge mistakes made by experienced GMs every year....lots of them.

How anyone could not see where Bayless is headed is beyond me. He's 19 and he's already NBA ready. He has the will and drive to be great. And I would take on an attitude; every team has room for one. Spurs had Jackson and Horry. Lakers had Kobe. Pistons had Rasheed. Heat had Walker. etc. etc. etc. And you could have Bayless at a discounted rookie contract (#11 price tag as opposed to #2, where he was projected as late as draft night).


I LOVE Brandon Rush, and I even think he'll be better than anyone is expecting him to be, BUT he's not Bayless. Bayless won't fail based on pride and work ethic alone.

Beyond Arrogance, what makes your opinion any more credible than anyone else's on this board. Its an obvious reach to pretend like Bayless was projected #2 talent. Furthermore Adam Morrison was once a projected number one pick. To sum it up I just want to know how one justifys a rant like this with such a lack credible information.:)

imawhat
06-30-2008, 03:30 AM
Beyond Arrogance, what makes your opinion any more credible than anyone else's on this board. Its an obvious reach to pretend like Bayless was projected #2 talent. Furthermore Adam Morrison was once a projected number one pick. To sum it up I just want to know how one justifys a rant like this with such a lack credible information.:)

Not trying to be arrogant. I see little reason, other than never seeing him play, as to why anyone wouldn't want a player of his caliber. Some players' talent levels are obvious at an early age. Carmelo Anthony, Lebron James, Chris Paul, etc. I'm not saying Bayless is on that level, because he's not. But he's not too many steps down. And I think his talent level is pretty obvious for anyone that saw him play at Arizona.

For what it's worth, Miami had both Bayless and OJ Mayo in for "secret" workouts just prior to the draft. Beasley wasn't sure he was getting drafted by Miami, which was indicated by his post-draft reaction. So yeah, Miami was considering taking Bayless ahead of everyone in the draft not named Derrick Rose, yet nobody is wondering what Miami saw in him. Instead, it's "obviously there must have been something wrong because he slipped to #11".


BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if Morrison was considered a #1 pick. Scouts get it wrong ALL the time, even when it's clear that certain players aren't as good as valued (Morrison)

Bball
06-30-2008, 03:36 AM
. So yeah, Miami was considering taking Bayless ahead of everyone in the draft not named Derrick Rose, yet nobody is wondering what Miami saw in him.

Apparently Miami didn't see enough in him to draft him or make any deals to trade for him....

So they took a look at him and passed? I'm not sure how that makes your argument.

-Bball

Midcoasted
06-30-2008, 04:13 AM
I actually see our frontcourt as vastly improved. Our backcourt no doubt is better, but our front is too. Some people are just too pessimistic. we got hibbert nester and we added jawai, and he is said to be a bruising PF. I just saw the glaring holes last year. Murphy is alright and and Foster is great. We just added 3 new frontcourt pieces, 2 7 footers, giving us 3 7 ft centers and two bruising PFs in Foster and Nawai. Shawne can be put in certain situations at PF as well if the other team is playing small ball. I just really don't see how our whole team isn't drastically improved.

Harddrive7
06-30-2008, 06:42 AM
I was really upset and am not the type to rationalize away the opportunity to get more talent here. If I had to make a bet, I would be comfortable saying that we traded away the best available talent....which supposedly you are supposed to pick.

But the Pacers are in a different mode at the moment. The team needs to heal and does need to be careful about bringing in malcontents at this point. Whether Bayless is a great player or not, IDK. I think passing on him is just another piece of flesh we had to give up to get past the Artest/Jackson/Tinsley era. We just are in no position to take that risk. Let's look to take some risks next year or a couple years from now once the wounds are healed and the team is headed back uphill.


Absolutely, get a good foundation in place, get everyone on the same page and build on that in a couple of years. Get a chemistry going with these guys and maybe a couple of more additions. Get that flowing real good, get some value up, and then bring in that one guy to take it up a notch.

This is getting exciting.

Mourning
06-30-2008, 07:25 AM
I think Hibbert will be ok, but I think some of you are expecting too much out of him right away.

1. Rookies virtually always get called a LOT tighter then non-rookies.

2. A lot of rookies do go through a "rookiewall". Why would Hibbert not?

3. Centers take a long time to reach their potential. Now Hibbert is pretty polished and he's about as ready as they come to the league, but he's not completely ready for the NBA IMO either.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

2minutes twowa
06-30-2008, 09:09 AM
Here's my feelings on the whole situation. Bear this in mind: I've seen very little of Bayless or Rush. I'm not a college basketball kind of guy, so my opinion may mean very little to you.

I was ecstatic to see Bayless fall to us, and was heartbroken to hear we'd traded him. I'd seen him going very high in mock drafts and thought, "We lucked out to have a top 5 talent fall into our laps!" But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that there had to be a reason he fell to us, especially when other teams needed a PG so badly. The Knicks, for one. I'm sure an organization like the Knicks, and Donnie Walsh would have loved to steal that one, but they passed on him. There must be a reason so many other teams did too.

We picked up a guy in Rush who fits into his role on the team, can shoot the lights out, plays very good perimeter defense (which is something I saw several people on this board bemoaning), and will fit well into our style. We've got a true SG, one like we haven't seen since Reggie retired. Plus we got rid of an injury plagued Diogu.

Overall, I think we made a lot of strides in the right direction. If we suck this year, we'll be able to pick up a star PG next year in the draft. From everything I've heard about Bayless, he was an exceptional athlete, but not a true 1. I have faith in the organization to find the best player for our needs at PG, and I don't think Bayless was it. We need proven guys one our team, and we need character. Rush fits both of those, as well as TJ Ford.

This isn't our last draft, nor is it our last chance to pick up talent. Another Bayless will come along, he isn't Michael Jordan. He's not a once in a lifetime talent. This all, of course, is IMHO.

The red flag on Bayless for me was when Larry Brown passed on him. This is a guy who knows the PG position and considers it the most important position on the team and he passed on Bayless. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if it was the right move.

Anthem
06-30-2008, 09:13 AM
The red flag on Bayless for me was when Larry Brown passed on him. This is a guy who knows the PG position and considers it the most important position on the team and he passed on Bayless. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if it was the right move.
I don't think anybody expected Brown to take Bayless. He's everything a Brown PG isn't.

Brown has a VERY exact idea of what the ideal PG should be like.

Anthem
06-30-2008, 09:16 AM
A taller Foster with some offense sounds like an upgrade to me.
Are you kidding? The two are polar opposites! We drafted Jeff because he was the fastest big man in his draft class. Hibbert is the slowest. Jeff is in the game to do one thing: rebound. Hib isn't good there at all. Foster takes charges and plays great man defense, but won't block shots. Opposite of hib. Foster's D is all about moving his feet... Hib's is about being tall.

Please tell me what makes Hibby sound like "a taller Foster with some offense."

Unclebuck
06-30-2008, 10:16 AM
So far, all we've really done is shift our deficiencies from the back court to the front.

I mean, Murphy, Baston, and McRoberts? I don't think we could have a worse PF rotation if we tried. And I like Baston.

As currently constructed, this is maybe a marginally better team than last season. We need to make more moves (hopefully, good ones). But we have some decent trading pieces in Quis, Foster, and Nester to do just that.

How is our front court (really just the power forward and center positions) any weaker than last season??? JO didn't play much at all and when he did he wasn't very good. Subtracting Ike and David is addition by subtraction. So I think we are in better shape right now than we were before the past week

I realize I am a little late to this thread.

Besides all that, the point guard position IMO is by far the most important position in the NBA. So by upgrading that position we are getting more bang for our buck.

Plus another thing that I haven't seen brought up is the overall hugely positive effect that subtracting JO and JT from the locker room will have on the team. Not that JO was a bad guy or a bad locker room guy, but he never played, and that had a negative impact on the other guys- when your best player is out, when he is no there that effects everyone. Subtracting JT will also be like lifting a huge cloud, because the "feud" between JT and JT must have been very distracting at the very least.

Unclebuck
06-30-2008, 10:27 AM
Um...no. Hibbert is nothing like JO. Roy is much slower, a much weaker rebounder, and a much weaker scorer. He's not even as strong of a shot-blocker (yet), and that's Roy's main strength.

Nester is essentially a taller Foster that can't rebound as well, but has a marginally better offensive game.

No, it still looks really, really bad down there.

Foster and Nester are too redundant to play together, and Roy and Troy are too slow to play together.

It really, really was not an equal trade. :(

I strongly disagree with you here. Rasho is a skilled big man, who is a good shooter, has a halfway decent low post game. He's a smart player who understands how to the game. he's not very athletic, not a great rebounder and can't defend the quick power forwards and centers.

Jeff is the exact opposite of what I posted above.

And for the record, I've never seen Bayliss play - never had any idea what he even looked like until draft night.

I think before anyone starts making assumptions on what Hibbert will do, we need to see him (in fact we need to see all the rookies) play in the NBA first. the fact of the matter is half of the top 20 players will be largely disappointing.

Some of you are criticizing Shade for telling us how good Bayliss is going to be, and yet then you turn around and tell us how good Hibbert of Rush is going to be. Can't have it both ways. I have no idea how good any of the rookie players are going to be.

Isaac
06-30-2008, 10:30 AM
Are you kidding? The two are polar opposites! We drafted Jeff because he was the fastest big man in his draft class. Hibbert is the slowest. Jeff is in the game to do one thing: rebound. Hib isn't good there at all. Foster takes charges and plays great man defense, but won't block shots. Opposite of hib. Foster's D is all about moving his feet... Hib's is about being tall.

Please tell me what makes Hibby sound like "a taller Foster with some offense."

First of all I believe he was talking about Rasho being the taller Foster with some offense, not Hibbert.

Second of all, I'm getting really tired of hearing that Hibbert isn't a good rebounder at all. If anything he was one of the top 2 or 3 at boxing out his man and sealing off multiple players at a time. Hibbert will make us a better rebounding team and Foster and Murphy will really see the benefit of that by getting a lot of uncontested rebounds when Hibbert is in the game.

Naptown_Seth
06-30-2008, 10:46 AM
I would literally crap my pants if that happened. But why the holy hell would the Clips trade Brand for Dun?
Other things left that couldn't be mentioned yet, ie draft rights or BYC players.

I don't read anything into Bird's comments other than "I want to talk about the trades to get Rush and Hibbert but I can't till July. Those trades make me happy. I still need to get rid of Tinsley."

Sorry to be a downer but I think it's the boring truth.


Now OTOH I'm certain that there is at least moderate truth behind these other attempts to do deals and that Bird is keeping an open mind to a lot of options. Just as long as we are prepared to accept the already known deals and a Tinsley buy-out as the final act for now. The rest is probably not done yet and might never pan out, just like 95% of all trade rumors based on actual talks.



I just rewatched the first half of Kansas-Villanova and good lord is Rush a pickup. I mean I've seen all this stuff but over the last few months it's all blurred into a general feeling. Rush was disrupting a pass or dribble about 1 out of every 3 trips up by Vill. KS didn't always gain possession, but still we know how JOB sees tips/disruptions as critical to a quality defense.

Rush also showed super hops. This was the game he saved the bad alley-oop off the backboard and threw it down. Last time Reggie Miller did that? Never. But unlike Fred Jones, who did do those things, Rush has the outside touch and loves to find the open space away from the ball. He never lets the defense cheat away from him. Trip after trip he's right in the mix of everything, especially on defense.


I no longer have any G'town games on Tivo, but I did review my comments on him in the prospect thread. There is no denying that he does have a slowness to him. Actually he carries himself very softly, somewhat tenative. That's the issue. He's a smart kid but he's got the movement of Mutumbo without his will or ability to rebound and block shots. Thabeet played like a child against him, foolish and mistake prone, but when it came to burst and energy that was in Thabeet's corner.

So the conerns on Hibbert are legit. That's a good kid with real size that might just turn out to be a slightly better Greg Drieling. I'm hoping that at workouts they found more out of him than we saw and that maybe his system was holding him back. If so then we just got a lot better in a hurry with this draft.

Naptown_Seth
06-30-2008, 10:58 AM
The only reason were we even in contention to make the playoffs is because JO came back late in the season. Harrison played well at times as well. Ike was never a serious factor.

But, yes, our front court is worse now than it was last season. Our back court, however, is much better. But this team will still struggle to stay above .500 without any further moves.
What part of rebuild isn't clear here? I didn't know making the playoffs was another part of the Shade suicide watch. ;)

Barring the East just being terrible I don't see how we can expect this team to make the playoffs next year, nor how they were going to prior to the draft. I don't see how Bayless alone was putting this team in the playoffs this season either.

I guess I took it for granted that we'd all accepted that reality and were digging in for the long haul and evaluating moves based on how they prepare the foundation for a push in 2-3 seasons.

Naptown_Seth
06-30-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm really starting to wonder how many people around here have actually seen Bayless play...
I have and Wintermute is right. UCLA's young PG (Holliday) might be his match and was the reason I was saying that Westbrook wouldn't get to play PG for UCLA next year anyway. And Collison is still there too. Ricky Rubio is the big international PG that's mocking as a top 10. AJ Price stayed in school as well.

Sure Collison and Price weren't better than Bayless, but they showed signs that if they tightened up their games they could be NBA starters.

Bayless was NOT Rose and it wasn't all that close. Frankly I'd say that Chalmers may yet be the better NBA PG, just that you clearly didn't need the high pick to get him. Brook Lopez at 11, Mario at 17 would have been a theft for example. My worry is that DJ won't stick in the NBA, so Bayless being a bigger, craftier version of him doesn't make him a once in 5-10 years catch by any stretch.

Bayless might be TJ Ford in quality. That's pretty darn nice in a draft...but you just got TJ Ford. B Rush looks to be at least Bobby Phills quality and perhaps slightly better than that. So you get a possible starter SG and a part-time starting PG for a probable starting PG, outside chance all-star at times.

It was a classic 2 for 1 where I think the overall talent acquired actually favors the Pacers. Bayless might be better than Granger, but not by much, which means he's likely to be a Robin to someone else as well and not the solution to the Batman/Robin issue we have with Danny.


Oh, and I didn't even mention the Rip/Reggie like scoring of PG/undersized SG Curry who will come out next year probably.

Tom White
06-30-2008, 11:42 AM
....I was bouncing off the walls for a reason when we drafted him.

Lay off the chocolate and switch to decaf.

On a more serious note, one of the things that makes me happy about the new line-up is that the Pacers don't have to force players into playing out of position nearly as much as before. When you see posts talking about ONE player that some would force into playing a SG and others would try as a PF, it tells you how weak we were at certain positions.

Tom White
06-30-2008, 11:46 AM
Even if he does not run the floor very well, he fits the role Obrien wanted JO to play last year better than JO. You don't generally run a 5 man fast break anyway.

We will also know that if he is late getting down the floor, it is just because of a bit of slowness, instead of being from taking the time posing to the crowd.

Will Galen
06-30-2008, 11:56 AM
Miami was considering taking Bayless ahead of everyone in the draft not named Derrick Rose . . .

Not true, Miami brought Mayo and Bayless in for different reasons. They were down to three options. One, take Beasley. Two, take Mayo. Three, go ahead and do a deal with Seattle and hope Mayo was there.

Bayless was part of the third option. They looked at him to see if he was worth taking 4th if Mayo wasn't there.

Tom White
06-30-2008, 12:01 PM
For what it's worth, Miami had both Bayless and OJ Mayo in for "secret" workouts just prior to the draft. Beasley wasn't sure he was getting drafted by Miami, which was indicated by his post-draft reaction. So yeah, Miami was considering taking Bayless ahead of everyone in the draft not named Derrick Rose, yet nobody is wondering what Miami saw in him. Instead, it's "obviously there must have been something wrong because he slipped to #11".


...and yet the Heat selected who? Not Bayless.

Tom White
06-30-2008, 12:03 PM
We just added 3 new frontcourt pieces, 2 7 footers, giving us 3 7 ft centers and two bruising PFs in Foster and Nawai.

He was part of the trade, going to Toronto.

Will Galen
06-30-2008, 12:09 PM
we got hibbert nester and we added jawai, and he is said to be a bruising PF.

Jawai goes to the Raptors as part of the JO trade.

Speed
06-30-2008, 12:20 PM
Here's what I hope for Hibbert that he gets in the big boy league and plays up to his size.

This guy played Oden to a stand still last year, but eveytime I saw him this year he was trying to not draw an offensive fouls standing 20 feet away from the basket with a smaller guy guarding him.

I hope to God Obie doesn't play this guy 20 feet away from the basket like they did at Georgetown.

The guy got 6 boards a game playing 21 mins a game, playing on the elbow!!!!

I think if he really does get time, and lets be honest here, how many rookies get 20 plus minutes a game, he could be one of the best per minutes rebounders around.

Like Foster, no, not at all, but a space eater like they haven't seen since Tank Thompson!

The Pacers have done well, they are still 2 years away from really doing something, but right now with Hibbert you have the biggest guy since Tank and Smooth and the Davis and they gotten the fastest/quickest guy since T Best if not ever.

Look at it this way, you've given up JO who didn't play and when he did it hurt the Grangers of the world. You gave up Ike who wasn't tall enough or smart enough to play.

You've given up 60 games of very limited production for a legit point guard tandem (Jack and TJ), youth (draft picks), shooting (B Rush), toughness (Jack, hopefully Hibbert, B Rush imo), and cap space (Nesto, although I think we will be surprised with him).

In my mind we gave up almost nothing and have a team now, a real team.

If you take Bayless/potential out of the equation, this is a massively great set of deals.

You move down two spots, get the exact guy you want and a tough hardworking leader at the back up point guard. WOW.

You move a guy who is injury prone and gets paid like Kobe AND you get the quickest guy in the league at a spot you have a 3rd stringer playing. WOW.

I put the over/under at 41 wins next season, but still its a huge step in the right direction.

Lastly, I haven't seen it noted, but TJ JUST turned 25 approaching his prime. Jack is 24. Hibbert is a 21 year old 4 year college player.

I just can't tell you what I think a great job Bird and Morway did in a 3 day period. Amazing.

Speed
06-30-2008, 12:22 PM
Lay off the chocolate and switch to decaf.

On a more serious note, one of the things that makes me happy about the new line-up is that the Pacers don't have to force players into playing out of position nearly as much as before. When you see posts talking about ONE player that some would force into playing a SG and others would try as a PF, it tells you how weak we were at certain positions.

In a draft full of 19 year old tweeners the Pacers may have gotten the best real Shooting Guard and the best real Center (except maybe Lopez?), in the draft.

Trader Joe
06-30-2008, 12:26 PM
All I can do is speculate based off of what I've seen. And I've seen enough of Bayless to know that I was bouncing off the walls for a reason when we drafted him.

Which kind of makes him the anti-Arenas right? Considering most thought Arenas would never be more than a rotational player in the league.

avoidingtheclowns
06-30-2008, 12:57 PM
Which kind of makes him the anti-Arenas right? Considering most thought Arenas would never be more than a rotational player in the league.

or the fact that arenas has been successful in the league after being sandwiched in between positions has directly impacted how scouts/writers project bayless' game translating to the league.

Anthem
06-30-2008, 01:08 PM
Barring the East just being terrible I don't see how we can expect this team to make the playoffs next year, nor how they were going to prior to the draft. . .

I guess I took it for granted that we'd all accepted that reality and were digging in for the long haul and evaluating moves based on how they prepare the foundation for a push in 2-3 seasons.

In another thread the number "50 wins" was thrown around.

Pacers4Life
06-30-2008, 02:40 PM
Are you kidding? The two are polar opposites! We drafted Jeff because he was the fastest big man in his draft class. Hibbert is the slowest. Jeff is in the game to do one thing: rebound. Hib isn't good there at all. Foster takes charges and plays great man defense, but won't block shots. Opposite of hib. Foster's D is all about moving his feet... Hib's is about being tall.

Please tell me what makes Hibby sound like "a taller Foster with some offense."

he was talking about Rasho...easy man

Anthem
06-30-2008, 02:50 PM
he was talking about Rasho...easy man
My bad. That makes more sense.

I'm hopeful on Hibby, but seeing people say he's ready to walk in and start makes me think we're perhaps a bit too excited.

Bball
06-30-2008, 03:14 PM
My bad. That makes more sense.

I'm hopeful on Hibby, but seeing people say he's ready to walk in and start makes me think we're perhaps a bit too excited.

Everyone needs to remember he was the #17 pick... not the 7th. High hopes are fine but hopefully nobody is looking for a spot in the rafters for his jersey just yet ;)

I do like the pick but am fully aware it's not a done deal that we have our future at center now on the roster.

Unclebuck
06-30-2008, 03:33 PM
Everyone needs to remember he was the #17 pick... not the 7th. High hopes are fine but hopefully nobody is looking for a spot in the rafters for his jersey just yet ;)

I do like the pick but am fully aware it's not a done deal that we have our future at center now on the roster.

I'll be thrilled if we have a backup center who can play 10-15 minutes a game - And I mean if he can do that in 3 or 4 years - I'll be thrilled. I just hope everyone doesn't get all excited about him like they did the last center the Pacers drafted.

imawhat
07-01-2008, 12:12 AM
...and yet the Heat selected who? Not Bayless.

The point is that he was considered for the 2nd pick. And the overall point to that was that while he fell lower than expected, he was also considered higher than expected. And honestly, I think both points are moot.