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joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 12:19 AM
I am a Texas fan and therefore a TJ Ford fan. And because I am a rabid TJ fan I'm now a Pacer fan too. I was a little surprised there was not a TJ thread so I thought I would start one.

I think many people on this site are underestimating the effect Ford will have on this team. Minute for minute he is one of the better point guards in the league statistically. Using Hollinger's efficiency rankings, for a reference, he is ranked 6th among point guards, with an efficiency higher than Jason Kidds or Tony Parkers.

Here are TJ's numbers as a starter this season compared to Deron Williams and Chris Paul expanded to 48 minutes:

D. Williams 24 pts 13 asts 51% FG 80% FT 4 to 1.6 stls
T.J. Fords' 25 pts 13 asts 51% FG 85% FT 3 to 2.1 stls
Chris Pauls 27 pts 15 asts 50% FG 85% FT 3 to 3.5 stls

not bad.

But more importantly,TJ is a winner. He has won on every level. Two highschool state championships. A final four apearance in college. And in the NBA he's been in the playoffs each of his four years with less than stellar teams.

His first year he took a Bucks team that by all accounts was suposed to finish at the bottom of the eastern conference to the playoffs. The following year he was injured and the Bucks missed the playoffs. When he returned from injury they again made the playoffs.

Since leaving the Bucks, the same team, even with a solid point guard in Mo Williams haven't come close to the playoffs.

His first year with Toronto, Toronto went from 27 wins to 47 wins and won their first division title. That same year without TJ the Bucks had 11 fewer wins.

Anyway, I hope ya'll are excieted to have him. I think it should be a good fit with an uptempo team. It looks like the East is going to be a little tougher next season with Millwaukee, Chicago, and Miami all improving by leaps and bounds over night. But don't rule out a playoff run. I think it is a definite possibility.

PaceBalls
06-28-2008, 12:29 AM
I agree, and welcome to the board.
I am so stoked to finally have a really great PG on the Pacers.
And yeah, everwhere he goes his team wins.
I think my only concern is how much will he be able to play, both in minutes per game and games altogether.

The Pacers are going to be a good team next year, and a great team in the next couple years after that.

LAPacer
06-28-2008, 12:30 AM
I liked TJ ever since I saw him at the McDonalds High School Game. He is such a gifted athlete. I'm excited to have him in a Pacer uni soon. I hope he can stay healthy and this will be a great trade for the Pacers.

Hoop
06-28-2008, 12:31 AM
Welcome, we can always use more Pacer fans! They've been dropping like flies the last few years.

I'm very happy with Ford, I just hope he can stay healthy.

Noodle
06-28-2008, 12:43 AM
Schmoe there is no thread because there's not much to complain about with Ford. Read all the negativity and you'll understand why it hasn't been posted.

Bridge
06-28-2008, 01:24 AM
Schmoe there is no thread because there's not much to complain about with Ford. Read all the negativity and you'll understand why it hasn't been posted.

Bingo. Pretty much everyone likes Ford, we just think we could have gotten more for JO.

HeliumFear
06-28-2008, 01:34 AM
I'm expecting good things from TJ. Our backcourt is respectable again!

:happydanc :applaud::dance2: :dance::dance: :jump::nod::rockon::mango::cucumber::bdance::amen:

----------------
Now playing: Disciple - 103 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/disciple/track/103)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

CableKC
06-28-2008, 02:10 AM
You jumped onto the Pacer bandwagon at the right time......welcome to the board joeshmo!

Will Galen
06-28-2008, 04:36 AM
I am a Texas fan and therefore a TJ Ford fan. And because I am a rabid TJ fan I'm now a Pacer fan too. I was a little surprised there was not a TJ thread so I thought I would start one.

I think many people on this site are underestimating the effect Ford will have on this team. Minute for minute he is one of the better point guards in the league statistically. Using Hollinger's efficiency rankings, for a reference, he is ranked 6th among point guards, with an efficiency higher than Jason Kidds or Tony Parkers.

Here are TJ's numbers as a starter this season compared to Deron Williams and Chris Paul expanded to 48 minutes:

D. Williams 24 pts 13 asts 51% FG 80% FT 4 to 1.6 stls
T.J. Fords' 25 pts 13 asts 51% FG 85% FT 3 to 2.1 stls
Chris Pauls 27 pts 15 asts 50% FG 85% FT 3 to 3.5 stls

not bad.

But more importantly,TJ is a winner. He has won on every level. Two highschool state championships. A final four apearance in college. And in the NBA he's been in the playoffs each of his four years with less than stellar teams.

His first year he took a Bucks team that by all accounts was suposed to finish at the bottom of the eastern conference to the playoffs. The following year he was injured and the Bucks missed the playoffs. When he returned from injury they again made the playoffs.

Since leaving the Bucks, the same team, even with a solid point guard in Mo Williams haven't come close to the playoffs.

His first year with Toronto, Toronto went from 27 wins to 47 wins and won their first division title. That same year without TJ the Bucks had 11 fewer wins.

Anyway, I hope ya'll are excieted to have him. I think it should be a good fit with an uptempo team. It looks like the East is going to be a little tougher next season with Millwaukee, Chicago, and Miami all improving by leaps and bounds over night. But don't rule out a playoff run. I think it is a definite possibility.

Whoa, I thought he was good, but your post was still an eye opener! Thank you, and welcome again to the forum!

Pacemaker
06-28-2008, 04:41 AM
I love this kind of posts. Welcome aboard!


I am a Texas fan and therefore a TJ Ford fan. And because I am a rabid TJ fan I'm now a Pacer fan too. I was a little surprised there was not a TJ thread so I thought I would start one.

I think many people on this site are underestimating the effect Ford will have on this team. Minute for minute he is one of the better point guards in the league statistically. Using Hollinger's efficiency rankings, for a reference, he is ranked 6th among point guards, with an efficiency higher than Jason Kidds or Tony Parkers.

Here are TJ's numbers as a starter this season compared to Deron Williams and Chris Paul expanded to 48 minutes:

D. Williams 24 pts 13 asts 51% FG 80% FT 4 to 1.6 stls
T.J. Fords' 25 pts 13 asts 51% FG 85% FT 3 to 2.1 stls
Chris Pauls 27 pts 15 asts 50% FG 85% FT 3 to 3.5 stls

not bad.

But more importantly,TJ is a winner. He has won on every level. Two highschool state championships. A final four apearance in college. And in the NBA he's been in the playoffs each of his four years with less than stellar teams.

His first year he took a Bucks team that by all accounts was suposed to finish at the bottom of the eastern conference to the playoffs. The following year he was injured and the Bucks missed the playoffs. When he returned from injury they again made the playoffs.

Since leaving the Bucks, the same team, even with a solid point guard in Mo Williams haven't come close to the playoffs.

His first year with Toronto, Toronto went from 27 wins to 47 wins and won their first division title. That same year without TJ the Bucks had 11 fewer wins.

Anyway, I hope ya'll are excieted to have him. I think it should be a good fit with an uptempo team. It looks like the East is going to be a little tougher next season with Millwaukee, Chicago, and Miami all improving by leaps and bounds over night. But don't rule out a playoff run. I think it is a definite possibility.

underwave
06-28-2008, 04:45 AM
wlecome to PD! the stats you've posted really wowed me. with back up PG Jack i think this duo is going to make something happen. again welcom aboard!

kester99
06-28-2008, 06:00 AM
Nice to see this positive and detailed post. Welcome to the PD, Joe.





Also nice to see the lonesome cowboy's "where's my waitress" saying under the avatar there, Burt.

DGPR
06-28-2008, 06:24 AM
TJ Ford is sounding even better now. Lets just hope he doesn't get hurt because we need a dependable point guard for once.

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 09:27 AM
Pretty much everyone likes Ford, we just think we could have gotten more for JO.

I'm sure it is hard to give up a 6 time all-star. But here is a statistical take on the trade by Draft Express that ya'll might find interesting:

Trade Analysis

Regardless of who they actually drafted, the Indiana Pacers won the draft on Wednesday night. In dumping Jermaine O’Neal, the Pacers acquired the holy trinity of an expiring contract, future considerations, and the best talent in the deal. Expect to see the Pacers return to the playoffs given this excellent take.

On the flip side, the Raptors lost significant depth and are now a threat to miss the playoffs, despite the presence of solid talent in Chris Bosh, Jamario Moon, and Jose Calderon.

Jermaine O'Neal
G PER PAWS/40
2007-2008 42 14.4 -2
2006-2007 69 18.7 0.2
2005-2006 51 20.4 0.8
Contract Two years remaining at over $20M/Yr

T.J. Ford
G PER PAWS/40
2007-2008 51 20.3 1.12
2006-2007 75 18.2 0.32
2005-2006 72 13 -0.58
Contract Three years remaining at around $8M/Yr

Radoslav Nesterovic G PER PAWS/40
2007-2008 71 16.3 1.8
2006-2007 80 14.2 0.8
2005-2006 70 12.4 2
Contract Last year remaining at around $8M/Yr

pianoman
06-28-2008, 11:27 AM
does TJ play good defense?

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 11:48 AM
He plays tough defense, especially team defense. And his lack of size is largely made up for by his quickness. He is so quick, for example, he can help out on players that are a long way away from his man and still get back. His only short coming is due to his size. Some of the bigger point guards are able to take advantage of him on the low bock. In this situation, he has to rely some on help defense.

FrenchConnection
06-28-2008, 11:53 AM
You jumped onto the Pacer bandwagon at the right time......welcome to the board joeshmo!

I agree. No one will accuse you of being a bandwagon fan now!!!

Putnam
06-28-2008, 11:59 AM
Good stuff, joeschmoe.


I love the quickness. Ford is going to help prove that Jim O'Brien is a good NBA coach.

PaceBalls
06-28-2008, 12:02 PM
Nice to see this positive and detailed post. Welcome to the PD, Joe.





Also nice to see the lonesome cowboy's "where's my waitress" saying under the avatar there, Burt.

"unionized roofin' ol' son of a gun" wouldn't fit on there
I knew there would be another zappa fan who appreciate it eventually. :)

Robertmto
06-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Why are people fascinated by per 48 stats?

You know the main difference between those 3 players, CP3 and D Dub ACTUALLY play 38 and 37 mpg respectively. So their stats aren't THAT out of whack. But Ford plays 23 mpg, meaning it pretty much alters his stats completely. (doubles i believe)

He's no where near those guys.

Not saying anyone here thinks he is (god I hope not) but just pointing it out.

PaceBalls
06-28-2008, 02:44 PM
Why are people fascinated by per 48 stats?

You know the main difference between those 3 players, CP3 and D Dub ACTUALLY play 38 and 37 mpg respectively. So their stats aren't THAT out of whack. But Ford plays 23 mpg, meaning it pretty much alters his stats completely. (doubles i believe)

He's no where near those guys.

Not saying anyone here thinks he is (god I hope not) but just pointing it out.

Hold on man, he IS right near those guys for 23 minutes, that is 23 minutes of Top Tier MVP level PG play for the Pacers. I'll take it. I also think he will play alot more minutes with the Pacers..

Plus we can have Jack play the other minutes and frustrate the hell out of the other teams PG. It all sounds good to me!

JayRedd
06-28-2008, 02:51 PM
Hold on man, he IS right near those guys for 23 minutes

No. No he is not.

CP3 and DWill's "23-minute" production suffers because they have to "take plays off" from an energy level in order to unleash their utter dominance for 5-6 minutes stretches. If CP3 went into a game knowing it was only 23 minutes long he could go balls out on every play and, holy hell, would that be a sight to see.

TJ's major pro is that he goes balls out nearly the entire time he's out there. He's not particularly useful when he's not, whereas DWill can just stand around resting and still stick dagger threes and CP3 can play "lazy defense" and still play better on-ball D than most players in this League.

Therefore, TJs cannot realistically be expected to play over 35 mpg effectively and, honestly, as Tbird and multiple others on here and in the mainstream press have noted, 30 mpg would be even more ideal.

I actually really like "per 40" stats because the extrapolation can be very useful in many cases of young, low minute guys...but TJ is not a good example of a time where they really apply.

Foster is very similar.

PaceBalls
06-28-2008, 02:55 PM
No. No he is not.

CP3 and DWill's "23-minute" production suffers because they have to "take plays off" from an energy level in order to unleash their utter dominance for 5-6 minutes stretches. If CP3 went into a game knowing it was only 23 minutes long he could go balls out on every play and, holy hell, would that be a sight to see.

Yes, yes he is ... almost

You have a good point about them having to take plays off, but that doesn't make the drop off that drastic man. Fact is TJ is a badass when he is on the court, and that is good enough.

Robertmto
06-28-2008, 03:03 PM
Hold on man, he IS right near those guys for 23 minutes, that is 23 minutes of Top Tier MVP level PG play for the Pacers. I'll take it. I also think he will play alot more minutes with the Pacers.

No he's not. Not at all really. DOUBLING TJ's minutes produces slightly better numbers.

And if TJ was a "top tier pg" why the hell did Calderon see so much more of the floor?

Indianapolis_girly
06-28-2008, 03:09 PM
Welcome to PD!
I've always liked TJ, I always felt bad for him having a spinal injury.
Lets just hope he can stay healthy!

count55
06-28-2008, 03:59 PM
Everybody's going to be just fine with TJ Ford as long as we don't get silly and start comparing him to Deron Williams or Chris Paul....













Dammit.

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 04:14 PM
CP3 and DWill's "23-minute" production suffers because they have to "take plays off" from an energy level in order to unleash their utter dominance for 5-6 minutes stretches. If CP3 went into a game knowing it was only 23 minutes long he could go balls out on every play and, holy hell, would that be a sight to see.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that TJ is as good as Chris Paul or DWill.

I'm just suggesting what is possible now that he will be getting starting point guard minutes. The situation in Toronto, two excellent pgs, prevented either from getting the minutes they deserved. Calderon, though a different kind of point guard, was equally impressive this last season. I used 48 min, because that was the only way to compare their numbers on ESPN.

The numbers that I extrapolated from were the 26 games that he started this year before and after his injury. In those games he played 27 minutes a game. You make a good point about resting when you are playing big minutes, so there likely will be some diminished returns. But with a motor like TJ's adding 5 minutes a half aren't going to limit his per minute production much. You have to remember we are talking about a guy that weighs 165...those little guys can go forever.

Some of you have suggested that TJ needs to play limited minutes, and I have to disagree. This is not football, the fact that he is small makes it easier for him to go for long stretches in basketball. Look at Iversons minutes per games for example. And, TJ though not Iverson by any means, he does have that kind of motor.

JayRedd
06-28-2008, 04:16 PM
And, TJ though not Iverson by any means, he does have that kind of motor.

Nobody has Ivy's kind of motor.

Even if TJ's is that of a Testarossa, AI's is that of Doc Brown's Delorian.

Noodle
06-28-2008, 04:18 PM
No he's not. Not at all really. DOUBLING TJ's minutes produces slightly better numbers.

And if TJ was a "top tier pg" why the hell did Calderon see so much more of the floor?

He was injured. Like it or not Calderon is a great PG and he had developed good team chemistry in Toronto. T.J. is his equal, except faster. T.J. also has a recent history back problems, the injury. Calderon is younger a as productive. It's a no brainer on their part. T.J. is better overall in my opinion. You know Toronto doesn't have a great history of good decision making anyway. They'll probably be sorry they did this over the next two seasons.

Robertmto
06-28-2008, 04:25 PM
He was injured. Like it or not Calderon is a great PG and he had developed good team chemistry in Toronto. T.J. is his equal, except faster. T.J. also has a recent history back problems, the injury. Calderon is younger a as productive. It's a no brainer on their part. T.J. is better overall in my opinion. You know Toronto doesn't have a great history of good decision making anyway. They'll probably be sorry they did this over the next two seasons.

in what ways is he equal to JMC?

He's faster............i think we covered everything here

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 04:42 PM
... why the hell did Calderon see so much more of the floor?


The reason Calderon averaged more minutes than TJ was because TJ missed 31 games last season because of his injury. In TJ's absence Calderon played huge minutes, because the Raptors lacked a legitimate 3rd option at pg. When they were both healthy, TJ played slightly more minutes than Calderon.

Robertmto
06-28-2008, 05:40 PM
The reason Calderon averaged more minutes than TJ was because TJ missed 31 games last season because of his injury. In TJ's absence Calderon played huge minutes, because the Raptors lacked a legitimate 3rd option at pg. When they were both healthy, TJ played slightly more minutes than Calderon.

the answer we were lookin for was; because JMC is clearly superior

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 06:17 PM
the answer we were lookin for was; because JMC is clearly superior

I'm a big fan of Calderon's too.

Infinite MAN_force
06-28-2008, 06:52 PM
the answer we were lookin for was; because JMC is clearly superior

care to elaborate?

Im not disputing it, I don't really know. I just hate when people make these definite statements without supporting it.

Why is calderon better?

He is younger and historically healthier, Which makes sense with why they would trade Ford, but from what I have always understood, they were basically of eqaul talent, that being the reason their minutes were practically split down the middle.

joeshmoe
06-28-2008, 07:02 PM
He is younger

TJ is actually younger.

JayRedd
06-28-2008, 07:05 PM
Jose Calderon led the league in A/TO ratio by a wide margin.

He averaged 8.3/1.5 for a ratio of 5.35. Second place was Brevin Knight at 4.62

Only other every-day starting points in the league that were even close were CP3 (4.60), Steve Blake (3.65), Mr. Big Shot (3.31) and Deron (3.09).

TJ was a very respectable 3.07, btw.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&sort=astto&avg=pg&seasontype=2

duke dynamite
06-28-2008, 07:07 PM
The more YouTube video highlights I see of him the more I cannot wait for the season to start.

Robertmto
06-28-2008, 07:07 PM
care to elaborate?

Im not disputing it, I don't really know. I just hate when people make these definite statements without supporting it.

Why is calderon better?

He is younger and historically healthier, Which makes sense with why they would trade Ford, but from what I have always understood, they were basically of eqaul talent, that being the reason their minutes were practically split down the middle.

Healthier, stronger defender, much better shooter, much better passer, best A/T ratio in the league, cooler celebration after shots

http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/05/joseC_300_070501.jpg

CapnBruisin
06-28-2008, 07:11 PM
Even if Calderon wasnt quite to the level of talent and production Ford is, Ford is much more expendable because:

Calderon is much cheaper = You can get a much more quality (expensive)complimentary player at a different position without that much of a drop off at your point. Ford has the trade value because his larger contract.

Ford is an injury risk. Yeah, he could play fine and without trouble the rest of his career but it could take only one bad foul to end his career.

I'm glad we got him. Only way he were going to get a player of his talent back for JO was if we took a risk on him.

JayRedd
06-28-2008, 07:13 PM
Jose will actually be 27 when the season starts. TJ just turned 25.

CapnBruisin
06-28-2008, 07:27 PM
Having actually looked up Calderon's stats I can see why Toronto fans are excited about him. He dishes the ball extremely well and seems to have an excelent shot. over 50% from the floor? for a gaurd? Thats amazing.

Infinite MAN_force
06-28-2008, 07:51 PM
Healthier, stronger defender, much better shooter, much better passer, best A/T ratio in the league, cooler celebration after shots

http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2008/05/joseC_300_070501.jpg

After doing some research Calderon does sound better, but I don't think the margin is nearly as wide as you imply.

Calderon is bigger and a much better shooter, TJ is faster and a much better athelete. Both are high qaulity passers, Calderon is a little better and has less turnovers.

I am sure TJ defends quick point gaurds better and Jose gaurds big gaurds better... seems to even out. It seems like every PG tandem should be set up this way... Like Jax-Best, and now Ford-Jack.

Their playoff stats from last season are interesting as they are nearly identical and they literally split time down the middle. Again, I would probably consider Calderon better overall, but they have different skill sets, and I don't think it is a huge margin.

TJ - 11.6 points, 4.4 boards, 6.6 assists, 1 steal, 2 TOs in 24.8 minutes

Jose - 11.8 points, 3.6 boards, 7 assists, 0.2 steals, 1.2 TOs in 24 minutes

Looks like the difference in steals made up for the difference in turnovers. :D TJ will steal .8 more balls and have .8 more TOs.

interesting that TJ averaged more boards being 3 inches shorter. He did in the season too. Says something for his athleticism.

The Unknown
07-01-2008, 09:22 AM
Ford averaged 14 and 8 in 30 minutes in 06-07. His production didn't slip at all given more playing time, therefor the per-48 stats are validated. He has the talent level and athleticism to be an elite point guard. Not Paul or Williams, but the next level down. His biggest flaw has been his shooting, but it's improved considerably in the past few years, and in coach O'Brien's offense, it will continue to improve, which will mean less driving to the basket and a lowered risk of another fluke landing.

As for Calderon, I'd say they're close to equal. Ford is the more prolific scorer and better defender; Calderon is more efficient.

Here's ESPN stat genius John Hollinger's 2007-2008 per-rankings for point guards...


#1 Chris Paul PER: 28.39
#2 Chauncey Billups PER: 23.61
#3 Steve Nash PER: 21.16
#4 Deron Williams PER: 20.82
#5 Jose Calderon PER: 20.5
#6 T.J. Ford PER: 20.37
#7 Tony Parker PER: 20.04
#8 Baron Davis PER: 19.87
#9 Monta Ellis PER: 19.01
#10 Andre Miller PER: 18.97

rexnom
07-01-2008, 09:34 AM
Healthier, stronger defender, much better shooter, much better passer, best A/T ratio in the league, cooler celebration after shots


That's just not true. Granted I've only seen him play a few times this past year but once was live against the Wiz where he torched them for 23 and 13 on like 85% shooting. However, the Wiz did go at him on defense. Deshawn in particular was able to abuse him with his best Gil imitation. I don't think I would call TJ a great or even god defender (although he presses nicely), but let's not act like Calderon is Isiah Thomas.

avoidingtheclowns
07-01-2008, 11:55 AM
That's just not true. Granted I've only seen him play a few times this past year but once was live against the Wiz where he torched them for 23 and 13 on like 85% shooting. However, the Wiz did go at him on defense. Deshawn in particular was able to abuse him with his best Gil imitation. I don't think I would call TJ a great or even god defender (although he presses nicely), but let's not act like Calderon is Isiah Thomas.

unless MTO means 'stronger' as in he's bigger than ford - he isn't a better defender. both are pretty poor (though both clearly better than what we tried to pass for PG defense last season.)

also speaking of the wiz and hibatchi, this is how he feels about A/TO ratio


On the East side, I donít know if there were any big snubs. I mean, some people wanted Jose Calderon. Jose Calderon? Who? Come on man, this is All-Star, people. When Iíve seen some of the names that are being thrown around on the ticker as snubs, itís killing me. I understand Calderon has the best assist-turnover ratio in the league, but you know whatís funny? All back-up point guards have the best assist-turnover ratios. Screw it, Kevin Ollie should be an All-Star then! For like five or six years, Ollie was No. 1 in assist-turnover ratio!

An All-Star is an All-Star! Heís playing at a high level. That means, if you take him off the team, that team should fall down if heís that one guy. An All-Star means that he is dominating the game of basketball. Itís not even about numbers necessarily, itís about dominating.

http://my.nba.com/forum.jspa?forumID=400032200&start=0

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-01-2008, 12:00 PM
If you're dominating, wouldn't you have the numbers to show for it? I understand what Gil means but his explaining makes no sense.

MyFavMartin
07-01-2008, 12:00 PM
fannation reports that charlotte was close to getting ford in a trade with toronto for gerald wallace....


kind of makes you feel warm, fuzzy and validated when you find out that you got Larry Brown's PG, doesn't it?

LoneGranger33
07-01-2008, 12:02 PM
Antonio Daniels was pretty high on that list Gilbert. And nobody says **** about AD. He kept the Wiz afloat till Gilbert came back to sink them.

Kuq_e_Zi91
07-01-2008, 12:06 PM
Antonio Daniels was pretty high on that list Gilbert. And nobody says **** about AD. He kept the Wiz afloat till Gilbert came back to sink them.

It was also a lot of Antawn Jamison. AD did a very nice job of stepping in and being turnover-free but Jamison carried them.

Robertmto
07-01-2008, 12:19 PM
unless MTO means 'stronger' as in he's bigger than ford - he isn't a better defender. both are pretty poor (though both clearly better than what we tried to pass for PG defense last season.)

Correct. He defends the bigger, stronger guards much better than Ford does.

avoidingtheclowns
07-01-2008, 12:54 PM
It was also a lot of Antawn Jamison. AD did a very nice job of stepping in and being turnover-free but Jamison carried them.

ahem...


http://www.myfoxwfld.com/myvoicedc/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/caron.jpg

avoidingtheclowns
07-01-2008, 01:03 PM
If you're dominating, wouldn't you have the numbers to show for it? I understand what Gil means but his explaining makes no sense.

well he's both right and wrong.

he is right about A/TO being a misleading stat. it rewards players that don't take risks or don't create (like Kevin Ollie). but it doesn't tell the whole story. calderon yes is clearly a playmaker and when you combine that with his FG% and his ability to score - he is more than just a safe scrub.

naptownmenace
07-01-2008, 04:09 PM
fannation reports that charlotte was close to getting ford in a trade with toronto for gerald wallace....


kind of makes you feel warm, fuzzy and validated when you find out that you got Larry Brown's PG, doesn't it?

:nod:

Excellent point, btw!

SoupIsGood
07-01-2008, 04:10 PM
Q: Is TJ going to be the best PG JOB has ever coached?

The Unknown
07-01-2008, 04:22 PM
O'Brien had Iverson during his one year in Philly (04-05).

avoidingtheclowns
07-01-2008, 04:24 PM
Q: Is TJ going to be the best PG JOB has ever coached?

i suppose it depends how you feel about tony delk

Hicks
07-01-2008, 04:32 PM
Q: Is TJ going to be the best PG JOB has ever coached?

Well, technically Iverson was a PG when he coached in Philly IIRC. If not, then I say yes, but if so, I'd think (and hope to God) he's at least more efficient than AI at scoring points and hopefully he has a better AtoT ratio.

JayRedd
07-01-2008, 05:53 PM
Did TJ Ford win an NBA MVP that I didn't hear about?

SoupIsGood
07-01-2008, 07:25 PM
I wasn't sure whether Iverson had switched to PG by then or not. Looks like he returned to PG in JOB's first year.

So, Ford is the best non-Iverson PG he's had. Still pretty good.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-02-2008, 03:04 PM
I keep hearing about insurance on his contract. Is there some link that says the Pacers will be covered by the same insurance? Is it in his contract and therefore rolls over to Indiana or was it some separate policy the Raps took out? etc... Anyone know?

rexnom
07-02-2008, 03:10 PM
I keep hearing about insurance on his contract. Is there some link that says the Pacers will be covered by the same insurance? Is it in his contract and therefore rolls over to Indiana or was it some separate policy the Raps took out? etc... Anyone know?
Do you have something against Ford or are you just playing devil's advocate?

Dr. Goldfoot
07-02-2008, 03:16 PM
Both

rexnom
07-02-2008, 03:21 PM
Both
I see. Well, in any case, the insurance transfers, but as Redd said earlier, for strategic/cap purposes, it doesn't really matter. If TJ gets injured badly, it's not good for us.

Dr. Goldfoot
07-02-2008, 03:23 PM
Honestly, I'm approaching any move made by this team with extreme caution until I have confidence in those making the decisions. I've yet to read anything about an insurance policy outside of this board. I haven't really looked very hard though, either. Just curious as to where this is coming from.

Will Galen
07-02-2008, 03:40 PM
I don't think I would call TJ a great or even god defender (although he presses nicely), but let's not act like Calderon is Isiah Thomas.

I really don't think anyone can defend god. He's just to good!

Get it? hehe

rexnom
07-02-2008, 03:46 PM
Btw, I think I would rather have Calderon in general but for a team like the Pacers, lacking severely in creators, having TJ might be more beneficial, especially considering we have the "solid PG" position locked up with Jack.

count55
07-02-2008, 03:54 PM
I really don't think anyone can defend god. He's just to good!

Get it? hehe


The key with god is to force him to the wings and keep him out of the middle of your defense. He'll get his numbers, but it will sub-optimize their offense giving you a better chance to win. History says that his teams are only .500 when he scores more than 30 and has fewer than 4 assists.

avoidingtheclowns
07-02-2008, 04:07 PM
The key with god is to force him to the wings and keep him out of the middle of your defense. He'll get his numbers, but it will sub-optimize their offense giving you a better chance to win. History says that his teams are only .500 when he scores more than 30 and has fewer than 4 assists.

absolutely... really when you let him inside the arc, the flood gates open and he'll be scoring in 2s

rexnom
07-02-2008, 04:13 PM
Wow. This is my worst misnomer since I was worried that Gary Payton might break his "league" back in '04.

JayRedd
07-02-2008, 04:13 PM
I keep hearing about insurance on his contract. Is there some link that says the Pacers will be covered by the same insurance? Is it in his contract and therefore rolls over to Indiana or was it some separate policy the Raps took out? etc... Anyone know?


I see. Well, in any case, the insurance transfers, but as Redd said earlier, for strategic/cap purposes, it doesn't really matter. If TJ gets injured badly, it's not good for us.

If the contract is insured...it should transfer.

But, actually, after I was posting before I got to thinking and was like "Wait a minute? What the hell insurance company agreed to insure this guy's neck?"

In the past 6-8 years, all pre-existing injuries have pretty much become uninsurable (last I knew anyway). You used to be able to get them included on a deal by paying higher premiums, but nowadays, pretty much no carriers will even underwrite that type of risk.

So...where did we even get this information about his contract being insured for a neck injury? Does anyone have a link?

I'm not saying there's no way he's Herb is insured against it...I'm just saying it's hard to believe (additionally, like I said before, it barely helps us from a cap perspective regardless...I'm just curious).



absolutely... really when you let him inside the arc, the flood gates open and he'll be scoring in 2s

The Ascension Dunk is borderline unstoppable.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097

rexnom
07-02-2008, 04:18 PM
If the contract is insured...it should transfer.

But, actually, after I was posting before I got to thinking and was like "Wait a minute? What the hell insurance company agreed to insure this guy's neck?"



The Ascension Dunk is borderline unstoppable.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097




In the past 6-8 years, all pre-existing injuries have pretty much become uninsurable. You used to be able to get them included on a deal by paying higher premiums, but nowadays, pretty much no carriers will even underwrite that type of risk.

So...where did we even get this information about his contract being insured for a neck injury? Does anyone have a link?

I'm not saying there's no way he's Herb is insured against it...I'm just saying it's hard to believe (additionally, like I said before, it barely helps us from a cap perspective regardless...I'm just curious).
I guess I just assumed he was insured but I've never seen an authoritative source on it.

Pacers
07-02-2008, 04:28 PM
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22tj+ford%22+contract+insured&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Plenty of blogs are saying it, so it's not just here.

Since86
07-02-2008, 04:50 PM
This is from Doug Smith who's been covering the Raps since '95.


Ford is far from a bum, he’s a starting point guard in the NBA (just not here with the presence of Jose Calderon), his contract is far from arduous and it’s fully insured, giving any team that acquires him some financial peace of mind.
http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/2008/06/hard-work-and-s.html

That's from the Toronto Star, and it's a pre-trade piece.

Arcadian
07-02-2008, 05:04 PM
So if he gets hurt, sits out a year to rehab, makes attempts to come back, then decides to retire when does the insurance kick in and does it every help with the cap?

ChicagoPacer
07-02-2008, 06:08 PM
If the contract is insured...it should transfer.

But, actually, after I was posting before I got to thinking and was like "Wait a minute? What the hell insurance company agreed to insure this guy's neck?"

In the past 6-8 years, all pre-existing injuries have pretty much become uninsurable (last I knew anyway). You used to be able to get them included on a deal by paying higher premiums, but nowadays, pretty much no carriers will even underwrite that type of risk.

So...where did we even get this information about his contract being insured for a neck injury? Does anyone have a link?

I'm not saying there's no way he's Herb is insured against it...I'm just saying it's hard to believe (additionally, like I said before, it barely helps us from a cap perspective regardless...I'm just curious).

You can still insure about anything, just not using a traditional health insurer. The policy is underwritten through a global insurer and re's share the risk through a clearing house like a Lloyd's. You might end up paying more than you would have 5 years ago, but it's still done.

If Lloyd's can package deals to insure the global shipping industry in the hundreds of billions or even trillions against hurricanes, surely they'll insure TJ's neck.

count55
07-02-2008, 08:31 PM
The insurance is attached to the contract, not to the team.

BTW...here are some interesting comments from some Toronto Fans:


It was a neck injury. All I know is he stayed away from the game because of psychological issues, work on his falls, and build muscles around his neck. According to the newspapers, he felt the effects for a day, the rest of the time off was for working with John Lucas.

Another Horford type of blow to his head can probably end his career, and probably anyone elses. Theres a youtube interview of his, you can listen to it. He said that when you are paralyzed on the court, you start thinking of retirement or something along those lines.


Yes. The fall definitely aggravated TJ's Spinal Stenosis. He mentioned that he had numbness in parts of his body that lasted 24 hours. He seemed normal a few days later, however the Raptors did not want to taken any chances and wanted a multi opinion examination and sufficient time for TJ and his family to consider the situation.

It wasn't as bad as his injury with the Bucks, but it was still a concern for all involved.


I think it was definitely a mix of the two. Not everyone can take a hit like that but it's safe to assume T.J.'s condition may have added another dimension to it. I really think a lot of what he experienced that night was his own fear after the initial impact of the hit and fall, which is understandable. He was probably re-living the episode in Minnesota from his Milwaukee days and thought it'd result in something different. However, he was at the ACC the night after for the Raps game and while he wasn't his usual self, it was a great sign.

T.J. is in the exact same physical condition today as he was when Toronto acquired him two years ago. He's at no greater risk than before, but the risk still exists that he's one awkward fall away from retirement. I guess the same could be said for any player in the league at the right angle but T.J.'s condition makes it worse. I wouldn't worry about it too much, though. In T.J.'s time here in Toronto, it took some very awkward falls and freak accidents for him to miss time (I'm thinking Dallas when someone fell on his back, the 2007 playoffs when Vince fell on his back, the episode in December when Horford smacked him over the head from behind) so just hope this cat really has nine lives.


In Atlanta, TJ got hammered on the forehead by Horford's forearm. This snapped his neck back, and he then crashed hard to the floor with his head slamming into the court. IMHO, anyone would have been injured (concussion) by the bump he took regardless of his condition. He did have numbness after the fall which was why he was stretchered off and out of action for a bit. However, he missed more games due to mentally not being ready to return than from the actual physical injury (or so it seemed).

TJ's a strange case. We were told when we acquired him that since his surgery, he is no more prone to neck injuries, stingers, paralyzation than anyone else...but that is obviously false. However he's not fragile, it is only when he takes a major whallop that he seems to suffer from the stingers.

I think the biggest worry is that any other semi-major injury like the one in Atlanta will end his career simply because he will be too scared to step onto a court again, and I wouldn't blame him one bit.

But the odds are just as good to have him stay healthy and play like a top 10 PG. Hopefully he and Augustine establish a pecking order so your board doesn't go through the crap ours did.

I looked for some news articles regarding his injury and games missed to see if I could flesh this out, but the point of view was consistent amongst Raptors fans: the physical portion of this past injury probably only cost him a few days. The real time lost was a combination of specific training and conditioning, and, more soberingly, psychological concerns. Did he want to do this anymore?

Now, that could go a long way towards explaining why there has been no problem getting insurance for his condition. If, as claimed by Ford's surgeon and the Bucks, that the successful spinal fusion surgery as diminished the risk of paralysis to immaterial levels, then insurance companies would have no trouble insuring him. (It's difficult to find a good medical link that would be specific enough to TJ's case because most discussion of Spinal Stenosis and the results of successful Spinal Fusion surgery are written about the usual middle-aged patient case and focus on relief of pain rather than any concern for the rigors of the NBA. Here are a couple of links so you can look for yourself: Mayo Clinic (http://http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-stenosis/DS00515/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs) SpinalStenosis.org (http://http://www.spinalstenosis.org/surgical.php))

So, there appears to be some reason to hope that the likelihood of extreme physical injury is being overblown to some degree. This is something that the insurance company would seem to endorse, as they consider TJ's condition less likely to end his career than the conditions that, for example, Quentin Richardson or Eddy Curry have. (Admittedly, that's extrapolation on my part based on the fact that Ford's contract is insured, while insurers refused to endorse the other two.)

However, we also get a glimpse of something that could be just as disconcerting, depending on how you look at it. If, in fact, the reports from Toronto are accurate, then the question no longer is about Ford's physical fragility, but about possible mental fragility. Well, that's not a fair way to put it. The question is not is he too weak, mentally to deal with the issue, but is he strong enough mentally to deal with a very difficult and very scary situation.

By all accounts, Ford is considered a tough, borderline fearless player. This is a prerequisite for being as small as he is, comparatively, and operating in the very physical NBA. However, I can't imagine how scary the types of injuries TJ has had can be. I've suffered from stingers for almost 30 years, and I've had injuries where I've gone numb or lost feeling in my arms for very brief periods of time. But we're talking a few seconds to a couple of minutes here, not 24 hours.

In other words, in this scenario, it may not be paralysis that ends his career, rather the fear of paralysis that causes TJ to say, "You know what? I'm not gonna do it anymore." If that is the case, but doctors say he's physically able to pay, then the insurance is of no use to us.

Now, this information gives me a different view of the risk associated with TJ Ford. There are two sides to this coin, one good and one bad.

The good side is that my fear of TJ actually ending up paralyzed after a bad fall is diminished. I think it's higher than it would be for most other players, but I also believe it's a statistical unlikelihood.

The bad side is that it may not matter. TJ's condition will result in more stingers and more numbness. These may be fleeting and not career threatening, in and of themselves, but each one will remind TJ of his most serious injury...the one that occurred in February of 2004 and cost him 18 months of his career. Each one will test his courage and his commitment to playing basketball. Each one could be the one that drives him away from the game entirely.

On the whole, I'm still more comfortable with the risk that TJ Ford presents than the chronic, nagging type of injuries that we've experienced with JO and Jamaal over the years. However, I must admit, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm going to end up taking more of the good side of the coin or the bad side of the coin. It's going to be an interesting experience, and I'm sure we'll all hold our breath every time TJ hits the floor for quite awhile.

joeshmoe
07-03-2008, 09:35 AM
Great post. I think it acts as a great synopsis of what TJ's situation is for everyone.

I think you are correct that it would be the threat of being paralyzed, and not actually being paralyzed which would be more likely to end his career. The way TJ put it before returning was that he loves playing in the NBA and it has always been his dream but that it was more important to him to be able to play basketball with his son some day.

When TJ returned he decided that the risks of being paralyzed playing are currently at a level that he is willing to take them. If he takes another scary fall, he will probably have to reevaluate. Did the hypothetical fall increase the risk of being paralyzed or does it indicate that the risk was greater than supposed initially?

If the risks are not greater than they were before the fall then he would likely continue to take them and continue his professional career. If they are greater, then he has to decide if they are worth it. If he does decide the risks are too high, it will be based on a doctors opinion after his latest injury suggesting the risks are greater than supposed prior to the fall.

So the question becomes for insurance purposes, would this type of injury that suggests the risks are greater than he is willing to take be viewed as a career ending injury. My guess is that such an injury would be viewed as a career ending injury and the insurance would cover it.