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View Full Version : 1070 says that Bayless for Rush was predraft trade



CompACE
06-27-2008, 03:29 PM
It said on 1070 that apparently Bird had his hands tied because he promised Portland a PG for pick 13 and Jack, whether it be Westbrook or Augustin - He just didn't expect Bayless to be there.

I started listening half way into it so take this with a grain of salt, but supposedly this was a predraft understanding.

What I don't understand is why didn't we just wait until after our pick to make this deal. That way we could see how things played out draft-wise.

Oh well...GO PACERS!!!

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Yes, i am listening to the show now and they are reporting that. If this is true, it is a stupid move by Bird, you always wait until you know who is there.

Young
06-27-2008, 03:35 PM
I just have a hard time believing this.

If we were talking about maybe Bayless or Gordon falling to us at 11 how could Bird not know there was a decent chance of it? I just don't buy it.

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:35 PM
Urge to kill...rising...

RWB
06-27-2008, 03:37 PM
So is Kravitz trying to stir sH1Rt as usual?

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 03:38 PM
It's pretty tough to pull off a deal in the 10 minutes betwen picks.

A pre-arranged deal predicated on "if" Augustin or Westbrook was around makes sense. My guess is that when Bayless unexpectedly -- to all involved -- fell, Bird asked Pritchard "So...you still want to do this with Bayless instead?" and dude said yes.

If that was the case (my speculation), then it also means Bird could have kept Bayless if he wanted and opted for the "two players instead of one" option.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:39 PM
I just have a hard time believing this.

If we were talking about maybe Bayless or Gordon falling to us at 11 how could Bird not know there was a decent chance of it? I just don't buy it.

Yep. I think Bird just simply decided he liked Rush and Jack better than anyone who would be there at 11. So he made the deal, and yesterday I know for a fact there were many people on here who wanted the 13th pick and Jack for the 11 and Diogu. Yes the 33 was in that deal, but we got a second rounder in McRoberts so its still basically the same thing. In fact, I bet we got our pick of the 33rd pick or McRoberts and took McRoberts.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 03:39 PM
I said EXACTLY THIS in the draft thread. In what way would such a plan be legally (or even morally) binding? No GM on earth is going to fault you for changing plans if a major asset drops in your lap before the deal becomes official.

This pisses me off again. Bird had a plan laid out, and wasn't able to adapt when the scene changed.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:40 PM
So is Kravitz trying to stir sH1Rt as usual?

I'm pretty sure he said the same thing in his article, and in there he wasn't bashing Bird for it.

Roaming Gnome
06-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Oh well, our backcourt is still better today then it was 3 days ago.

Go Pacers...

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Yep. I think Bird just simply decided he liked Rush and Jack better than anyone who would be there at 11. So he made the deal, and yesterday I know for a fact there were many people on here who wanted the 13th pick and Jack for the 11 and Diogu. Yes the 33 was in that deal, but we got a second rounder in McRoberts so its still basically the same thing. In fact, I bet we got out pick of the 33rd pick or McRoberts and took McRoberts.

You guys have no idea how much you're hurting me right now.

MyFavMartin
06-27-2008, 03:41 PM
Some mocks had Bayless at #11 yesterday, so I'm not buying that he shouldn't have been thought of as an option of being there.

Ten minutes would have been plenty of time for Portland to sweat it out.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:41 PM
You guys have no idea how much you're hurting me right now.
:dance:

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:43 PM
I swear to God, I just feel so low as a fan right now. We finally got on the right side of lady luck and we looked a gift horse in the mouth. Unfreakingbelievable.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:44 PM
I swear to God, I just feel so low as a fan right now. We finally got on the right side of lady luck and we looked a gift horse in the mouth. Unfreakingbelievable.

I'm gonna love to pull out all these posts if Bayless becomes Dajuan Wagner part Deux.

grace
06-27-2008, 03:45 PM
Urge to kill...rising...

Calm down or I'll have to post the picture again.

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 03:47 PM
I'm gonna love to pull out all these posts if Bayless becomes Dajuan Wagner part Deux.

Me to

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:48 PM
Anything can happen. But from what I've seen of Bayless, I wouldn't bet on it.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:49 PM
Anything can happen. But from what I've seen of Bayless, I wouldn't bet on it.

People were saying a lot of the same stuff about Wagner.
A lot of you are forgetting that the chances of Bayless becoming an all star on Portland aren't very good. He'll be third option at best the rest of his career there.

Will Galen
06-27-2008, 03:52 PM
It said on 1070 that apparently Bird had his hands tied because he promised Portland a PG for pick 13 and Jack, whether it be Westbrook or Augustin - He just didn't expect Bayless to be there.

I started listening half way into it so take this with a grain of salt, but supposedly this was a predraft understanding.

What I don't understand is why didn't we just wait until after our pick to make this deal. That way we could see how things played out draft-wise.

Oh well...GO PACERS!!!

Something isn't right. Bob Kravitz reported this morning that Bird told him two weeks ago he knew Augustin and Westbrook wouldn't be there. I just don't believe 1070. How can you make a promise when you don't know what's going to happen?

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 03:57 PM
Yeah this whole thing doesn't add up.

maybe July 9th will come and Bird will decide, no, I think we'll keep Bayliss and JO

CableKC
06-27-2008, 03:58 PM
Yep. I think Bird just simply decided he liked Rush and Jack better than anyone who would be there at 11. So he made the deal, and yesterday I know for a fact there were many people on here who wanted the 13th pick and Jack for the 11 and Diogu. Yes the 33 was in that deal, but we got a second rounder in McRoberts so its still basically the same thing. In fact, I bet we got our pick of the 33rd pick or McRoberts and took McRoberts.
McRoberts had to be included for Salary reasons.

Ike is owed $2.913 mil in 2008-2009
Jack is owed $2 mil in 2008-2009

This means that we would have had to take back about $300k in salaries to make the trade work for SalaryCap reasons.

McRoberts is owed $700k and is the lowest paid player on the Blazers roster. The next guy would have been Sergio Rodriguez who is owed Sergio Rodriguez who is owed $874k. I could be wrong...but I don't think that the Blazers wanted to move him. So...just like how we got back Baston.....we got back the guy that made the trade work while not adding more Salary.

If anything...I agree with all of you.....if there was a way to have gotten the 33rd or 36th pick on top of McRoberts...then I would have wanted it just so that we could have gotten an actual PF that we could have worked out ( like Hendrix ).......I just don't believe that Bird couldn't get either one from the Pritchard.

Since86
06-27-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm gonna love to pull out all these posts if Bayless becomes Dajuan Wagner part Deux.


People were saying a lot of the same stuff about Wagner.
A lot of you are forgetting that the chances of Bayless becoming an all star on Portland aren't very good. He'll be third option at best the rest of his career there.

I doubt many people predicted him to have his colon removed either.

You might as well throw in Shawn Respert on the bust list. I mean damn them to hell for dealing with serious life changing illnesses. Why couldn't they be so tough and just man up and play on?



I completely agree that there is the possibility of him busting, but it's completely different from Wagner. I'm not saying he would have been a world beater, but he is dealing with a very serious disease that does/did affect his ability to play ball.

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 04:03 PM
This pisses me off again. Bird had a plan laid out, and wasn't able to adapt when the scene changed.

Wasn't?

Or...

Didn't want to?

You're speculating on an opinion you want to be true. Maybe Bird thinks Bayless is a pile of *****. Doesn't mean he's slow or unable to adapt.




People were saying a lot of the same stuff about Wagner.

For the record, Dajuan Wagner was trying to play with a severe intestinal disorder (colitis) and ended up having to have his colon removed.

Using him as an example of a "bust" is as disengenuous as calling Shawn Respert a "bust."

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:08 PM
You're speculating on an opinion you want to be true. Maybe Bird thinks Bayless is a pile of *****. Doesn't mean he's slow or unable to adapt.
True... very true. Maybe Bird's just a bad talent scout.

Oh wait. We'd already agreed on that.

Since86
06-27-2008, 04:11 PM
Anthem, you're giving Grace a run for her money, if she was still a Pacer fan.

It's almost like your dog was stolen and your mom was just slapped.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 04:11 PM
True maybe I should clarify, I don't think Bayless will be a bust, but I don't think Wagner would have been an all star either. Wagner's shooting percentages in his rookie year were awful.
So yes, I'm not knocking Wagner for having the condition he has, I'm merely just saying talent wise Bayless could be Wagner.

Naptown_Seth
06-27-2008, 04:13 PM
I said EXACTLY THIS in the draft thread. In what way would such a plan be legally (or even morally) binding? No GM on earth is going to fault you for changing plans if a major asset drops in your lap before the deal becomes official.

This pisses me off again. Bird had a plan laid out, and wasn't able to adapt when the scene changed.
Or didn't want to. Maybe he didn't want Bayless for the same reason some other teams passed. The option to stop this was probably there but they felt good enough about what they were getting. The attitude is that NO PG at 11 that you could realistically get was better than getting Rush and Jack.

Brandon Rush is an impressive player and smart. Maybe he doesn't have the one on one skills but he has great team skills. He plays defense and he has a solid shot from deep. Maybe Bird already knew that Bayless was slipping and didn't really care that much, as in it never being mentioned for the trade but that if this happened he was ready to swap.

I mean technically this means he was willing to let the #4 player go in this same deal, and the #9 guy. It's not like Westbrook or DJ weren't coveted by other teams obviously. Why not keep them too since they have such value?


It's a choice, upside vs known quality and depth. The backcourt was a train wreck and Bird saw a good way to make a big adjustment in a hurry.

MyFavMartin
06-27-2008, 04:13 PM
FYI Everybody - Reports of the arrangement are in Chad Ford's ESPN Draft Grades article, so 1070 isn't reporting new info. It mentions Augustin or Bayless as part of the arrangement, I guess since everyone knew Westbrook would be long gone.

Since86
06-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Yes, and I'm sure fighting a serious disease had nothing to do with that.

Maybe Chris Lofton can shed some light on what is like playing basketball with a serious illness.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Anthem, you're giving Grace a run for her money, if she was still a Pacer fan.

It's almost like your dog was stolen and your mom was just slapped.
Nope. I actually felt calm when I came on the board today, then I started reading this irrational exuberance.

Unless we find out in the next few days that Bayless had a hidden crack habit that only Larry knew about, we're going to be watching Bayless for the next decade saying "He could have been ours."

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say Bayless wins a championship before Rush does.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Nope. I actually felt calm when I came on the board today, then I started reading this irrational exuberance.

Unless we find out in the next few days that Bayless had a hidden crack habit that only Larry knew about, we're going to be watching Bayless for the next decade saying "He could have been ours."

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say Bayless wins a championship before Rush does.

:lol:

You mean the guy with Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, and Lamarcus Aldridge on his team has a better shot of winning a championship than the guy with Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, and TJ Ford? What a revelation.

Since86
06-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Well it helps that he just went to the Blazers, and not the Grizz.

Also, I can't believe you bring up the term 'irrational.'

Acting like Bayless is a 100x better than what we got in return fits directly into that category, IMHO.

EDIT: Sorry my math completely sucks today. You called Bayless 10,000 times better than what we got in return.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:19 PM
:lol:

You mean the guy with Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, and Lamarcus Aldridge on his team has a better shot of winning a championship than the guy with Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, and TJ Ford? What a revelation.
Yeah, that was supposed to be a touch of humor. Should have added the smileys.

Rajah Brown
06-27-2008, 04:20 PM
Bayless isn't gonna bust. How can he surrounded by the talent
that Pritchard has assembled. But he'll probably never be an
All-Star. And in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 6th man
coming off the bench as an instant offense type guy in the
long run.

Naptown_Seth
06-27-2008, 04:20 PM
I'm gonna love to pull out all these posts if Bayless becomes Dajuan Wagner part Deux.What, like Shade's famous Colts meltdown right before the Super Bowl playoff run. :D

I will admit that the emotion he and Gnome had going last night was great. Good time, both up and down.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:23 PM
Also, I can't believe you bring up the term 'irrational.'

Acting like Bayless is a 100x better than what we got in return fits directly into that category, IMHO.

EDIT: Sorry my math completely sucks today. You called Bayless 10,000 times better than what we got in return.
I've already responded to this.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=745974&postcount=50

Naptown_Seth
06-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Yeah, that was supposed to be a touch of humor. Should have added the smileys.
With that in mind let's also remember that Bayless doing well in Portland doesn't equate to Bayless doing well in Indy, especially if any attitude was involved in his fall. Some guys handle an adverse circumstance better than others. The fact is that we'll never know exactly unless something is blatently different.

Bayless is going to be good, but will that be the same as how Jack/Rush impact this roster? This is all moot if Rush goes all-star side by side with Granger, not that I think he has that upside of course. It's not just a "if Bayless" debate.

Coop
06-27-2008, 04:26 PM
:lol:

You mean the guy with Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, and Lamarcus Aldridge on his team has a better shot of winning a championship than the guy with Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, and TJ Ford? What a revelation.


But Brandon Rush is a winnarr!1!!! Bayless has never done anything!1!!!1 :dance:


/sarcasm

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 04:29 PM
With that in mind let's also remember that Bayless doing well in Portland doesn't equate to Bayless doing well in Indy, especially if any attitude was involved in his fall. Some guys handle an adverse circumstance better than others. The fact is that we'll never know exactly unless something is blatently different.

Bayless is going to be good, but will that be the same as how Jack/Rush impact this roster? This is all moot if Rush goes all-star side by side with Granger, not that I think he has that upside of course. It's not just a "if Bayless" debate.

:ding: :ding: :ding:

Like I've said...I know very little about Bayless.

But it will be important to remember that the way a young "hot dog" type guy plays in an ideal, ready-made scenario as the 4th most important young player on the roster is a lot different than how the same guy would play on a roster such as ours.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 04:30 PM
I'm gonna post my final thoughts on this trade and then say good bye to it until we revisit it in eight months depending on whether Bayless or Rush is having a better Dec. :)

I liked Bayless a lot predraft. I was extremely excited as he fell to us at the draft, you can ask anyone that was around me. It was fun to watch him slip to us, BUT I also like Jack and Rush. They solve a lot of problems for us.
To me, this is a great deal for both sides, I think both teams help themselves out and in the long run I don't think we'll ever know who truely won and to me that is what makes a good trade (assuming both parties don't **** out).

I recognize the fact that Bayless could go all star on us, but I also recognize that he is far from a sure thing at this point. Which is fine, the kids only 19, but I think Rush and Jack fit our needs better right now.

Anthem its been fun debating this with you and to any of those offended me putting Bayless's worst case as Dajuan Wagner I apologize, although I won't retract the statement.

Only time will tell, but I believe the Pacers made a very good trade last night.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:31 PM
:ding: :ding: :ding:

Like I've said...I know very little about Bayless.

But it will be important to remember that the way a young "hot dog" type guy plays in an ideal, ready-made scenario as the 4th most important young player on the roster is a lot different than how the same guy would play on a roster such as ours.
I like this line of reasoning. It means that even if Bayless turns out to be a stud, we can console ourselves at night by saying "Well, he would have sucked if he came to Indiana." So no matter what reality looks like, we can tell ourselves we came out ahead.

Since86
06-27-2008, 04:33 PM
I've already responded to this.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=745974&postcount=50

I've read it. I was illustrating that no one in here is being irrational by any sense of the word.

Points are being made out of logic and opinions from observations. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that they're irrational.

tadscout
06-27-2008, 04:40 PM
Ugh... some are just wearing thin...:rolleyes:

aceace
06-27-2008, 04:42 PM
Some of you think Bayless = Iverson.... I don't agree. I do think he could be much better than Rush but Rush is ready now and is more of a sure thing. Rush will make you happy.

Coop
06-27-2008, 04:51 PM
It's funny that people agree with that statement now. Yesterday, some were trying to justify the trade by saying a team couldn't win with Bayless. He wasn't a team player and he didn't make others better.

But now, it's almost a sure thing he wins one.

Edit: Also, can someone please tell me why Rush is more of a sure thing? Is it because he's played college ball for 2 more years? Or maybe because he's 21 instead of 19? I don't think that is legitimate reasoning. If you look at his bio, he showed no improvement statistically over 3 years. To me, that means he is less of a sure thing. Not to mention the fact that he played with better players. He wasn't the sole focus of the other team's defensive strategy, so it's easier for him to get by without having his weaknesses exposed.

On the other hand, who did Bayless have? Budinger? He's decent I guess. But no matter who Arizona played, you knew every single night that Bayless was going to be the #1 priority when it came to stopping the Cats.

NuffSaid
06-27-2008, 04:52 PM
I swear to God, I just feel so low as a fan right now. We finally got on the right side of lady luck and we looked a gift horse in the mouth. Unfreakingbelievable.
Relax.

You're getting all excited over "prospects"..."potential". Let's wait and see how things pan out before jumping the gun.

I was alittle upset at first over the last second trade, too, but it didn't take long for me to realize we haven't lost much in trading Bayless for B. Rush. Sure, it would have been great to see Bayless create off the dribble and break a few defender's ankles with his speed and a wicked crossover or two, but I'd much rather have another light-out shooter who fits well within the coach's game plan than another individual highlight reel. Besides, if we are to believe the commentary on Ford, he's just as good at creating shots for himself as Bayless and he's the more experienced Guard. And speaking of reports, most sports analysist honest believe B. Rush is one of the most "NBA-ready" players from the draft.

So, relax. If you lay out all 7 new players the Pacers have tentatively acquired in the last 48 hours what you'll find is the weakest link is at PF, but with one more trade that weakness should get covered rather quickly.

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 04:54 PM
I like this line of reasoning. It means that even if Bayless turns out to be a stud, we can console ourselves at night by saying "Well, he would have sucked if he came to Indiana." So no matter what reality looks like, we can tell ourselves we came out ahead.

I have no horse in the race.

But this is an undeniable factor.

Feel free to live in a world of black and white or casatrophe and triumph...I'm going to continue to look at this as a nuanced situation based on the real-world factors at play on both sides that will play out over the next three years.

Bridge
06-27-2008, 05:05 PM
I always hesitate on sg's in a pg's body. The point position isn't something that can be learned. The lack of height at the 2 can also be a problem.

I think we had a solid draft. I would have taken this outcome if it was given to me two days ago. We just happened to get a potential stud at our pick. We won't know which way is right for a few years.

I guess I'm just happy that we are actually making moves. I had fun last night being involved in trades. It has been a few years since I've had fun being a Pacer fan.

mildlysane
06-27-2008, 05:32 PM
The way everyone 'round here is acting about Bayless, why are you not mad at Paxson for not drafting him? From what I read/heard, Rose, Beasley and perhaps Mayo were on 1 level, most of the 1st round were on the next level. I think he, like Gordon, is a tweener and we have had enough tweeners. Funny thing is.....can Bayless guard Ford? (Ford is awful quick)....Can Bayless guard BRush (6'6") or MDJ (6'9")?

indygeezer
06-27-2008, 05:39 PM
Yesterday while driving to COnseco, I heard them (who???) talking about pre-arrainged trades, just in general and why and how you do them. The upshot was...nobody would dare to change their minds on a pre-arrainged deal because the word would be out ina heartbeat and NOBODY would ever trade with you again. The Good ol' boys would see to it.

ABADays
06-27-2008, 06:04 PM
True... very true. Maybe Bird's just a bad talent scout.

Oh wait. We'd already agreed on that.

Anthem - did your post count go from 7,891 to 13,883 since the trade or was I just dreaming?

Anthem
06-27-2008, 06:40 PM
Anthem - did your post count go from 7,891 to 13,883 since the trade or was I just dreaming?
:laugh: I know I've posted a fair bit in the last couple hours, but 6000? Probably not.

Especially because somebody pointed out earlier this week that I was over 13k. So no, I think you're dreaming.

Or was that sarcasm?

Anthem
06-27-2008, 06:41 PM
Feel free to live in a world of black and white or casatrophe and triumph...I'm going to continue to look at this as a nuanced situation based on the real-world factors at play on both sides that will play out over the next three years.
Hey, I've already said that I like Jack and I like Rush. I think they'll be good additions to the team, and I think we'll win more games next year than this year.

But let's not sprinkle sugar on a turd and call it a cookie. We made a bad trade.

ABADays
06-27-2008, 07:16 PM
:laugh: I know I've posted a fair bit in the last couple hours, but 6000? Probably not.

Especially because somebody pointed out earlier this week that I was over 13k. So no, I think you're dreaming.

Or was that sarcasm?

Just having some fun :laugh:

bigrichard82
06-27-2008, 07:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcqe9UXkc8o

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 08:32 PM
Hey, I've already said that I like Jack and I like Rush. I think they'll be good additions to the team, and I think we'll win more games next year than this year.

But let's not sprinkle sugar on a turd and call it a cookie. We made a bad trade.

Since I was talking about the subtle nuances of how Jerryd Bayless should be properly evaluated as a Portland Trailblazer versus how he would have performed as an Indiana Pacer, I'm not sure why you would respond to my post with an unrelated point you've already said 15 times.

Cool though.

mike_D
06-27-2008, 08:44 PM
The way everyone 'round here is acting about Bayless, why are you not mad at Paxson for not drafting him? From what I read/heard, Rose, Beasley and perhaps Mayo were on 1 level, most of the 1st round were on the next level. I think he, like Gordon, is a tweener and we have had enough tweeners. Funny thing is.....can Bayless guard Ford? (Ford is awful quick)....Can Bayless guard BRush (6'6") or MDJ (6'9")?


Well that not really fare.most point guards in this league can't cut off T.J Ford from getting into the lane.He has to be one of the fastest players in the league with the ball in his hands. He should be able to defend that position .You are right though if he is playing the two guard spot and doesn't have a big point guard next to him he will have a hard time guarding any legit two guard with size.

eldubious
06-27-2008, 09:19 PM
Just as the earlier post said, why did all the other teams pass on Bayless? My guess is that they figure that he would not cut it as a PG. That means he his an undersized SG who will be abused on the defensive end. Pairing him with a big guard who can play the point (Brandon Roy) is ideal. It allows him to focus solely on scoring. Do I like this deal, no, but for Bayless to be successful in Indiana, the Pacers would have to get a big guard just so he could fit in. Also, I believe Bird has been high on Rush for a long time, the Pacers probably would have drafted him in 2006 instead of S. Williams. Mike Wells was hinting on Brandon Rush and Hibbert a week ago, so he definitely has inside connections. Also, I have a hard time believing in a pre-arranged deal before the teams know who's there, Conseco would be on fire if the Pacers traded Westbrook away.

CapnBruisin
06-27-2008, 10:38 PM
I dont think Bird would have backed out of this deal just because it was Bayless there even if he could.

He says he is tired of projects and wants someone that can contribute right away. Rush is defiantely more along those lines than Bayless.

But I like many people thought this was going to be a Danny Granger type draft steal, but then again weren't we supposed to be regretting passing up on Acie Law and Marcus Williams? Thankfully neither of them have happened, so maybe us regretting this one will never occur.

Noodle
06-27-2008, 11:45 PM
Bayless' weakness is ballhandling and defense. Thats why he fell. He'll never cut it as a 2. Rush's weakness is assertiveness and one-on-one dribbling. I think we'll be happy we took Rush instead. By the way, Jack is more than likely going to be released next season.

Infinite MAN_force
06-27-2008, 11:52 PM
By the way, Jack is more than likely going to be released next season.

What makes you think that?

backup PG is kind of important. You could be right, I suppose, but what leads you to believe this?

As long as we have TJ Ford Jack makes a ton of sense as a backup.

ChicagoJ
06-28-2008, 12:21 AM
TJ Ford is a backup, though. And fragile.

I'm not sure what to think of Jack.

Hicks
06-28-2008, 12:30 AM
TJ Ford is not a backup. He was in Toronto by circumstance, not by talent.

I also disagree on the fragile comment. Fragile is being in and out of the lineup constantly with nagging, persistent injuries. He's either totally fine, or he gets his spine whacked.

kellogg
06-28-2008, 12:57 AM
I, like many here, felt incredible joy when Bayless fell to us (a Grangeresque-like stroke of luck, I thought), but even at that moment I worried that a backcourt of a 6-0 PG and 6-3 SG would be getting abused on D...especially since we have no stoppers at the 3-4-5.

Then I was crushed when Bird traded him away...a top 5 talent for someone projected to go mid-late 1st round. In 15 minutes went from deciding I'd renew my season tickets now to swearing I'd never renew. I also think the Pacers biggest problem over the years is that they'll draft safe, landing the solid pro who has a 10 year career, but then won't take the risk on someone with upside. Jon Bender, were it not for his knee issues, would have been incredible, so I don't fault them for picking him (although they should have had someone from OrthoIndy checking him out first).

However, with another 24 hours to ponder it, I think they probably will come out OK. A backcourt of Rush and Ford at least won't get abused as badly as a Bayless-Ford one. Hibbert is OK - like USAtoday said, 'not likely a bust or a star'...but it allows us to get rid of Harrison and possibly trade Foster. McRoberts, from everything I've read, has attitude problems like Harrison and in looking at his predraft analysis on nbadraft.net, the rub on him was that he griped to refs all the time (sound familiar?). I'm hoping the Pacers just cut him if that's the case.

I'm hoping that Rush ends up one of those players who just wasn't able to showcase the entire scope of his skill set due to the fact that he had two other excellent teammates. His performance in the tournament, against excellent teams, gave me more hope that maybe it will be a fairly even trade.

Finally, I also consoled myself in that several other teams passed on Bayless...and Gordon, who was in some mock drafts was to be picked after Bayless went 4 spots higher. His size makes me wonder if he'll end up being a spectacular college scorer but not able to replicate that against bigger, stronger PGs (or even be able to adjust his game to that of a point)...like Rashad McCants, Respert, etc etc. I also don't think Bayless will put up numbers like Rush (at least early on in their careers) simply because Portland has Oden, Aldridge, Roy...and he'll not be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd scoring option...while in O'Briens up-tempo offense, Rush will have a bigger impact on his team on both ends of the floor.

MagicRat
06-28-2008, 01:00 AM
I'm gonna love to pull out all these posts if Bayless becomes Dajuan Wagner part Deux.

Bayless is nowhere near as strong as Dajuan Wagner......

ChicagoJ
06-28-2008, 01:12 AM
Bayless is nowhere near as strong a Dajuan Wagner......

:lol:

I've been waiting for that one for 24 hours.

bigrichard82
06-28-2008, 01:14 AM
I am a little heartbroken that we didnt keep bayless, but...........I dont know if bayless would have been what we had hoped with this roster. I have a feeling he would have been a Pacer only long enough for someone else to reap the benefits. I can live with Rush and Hibbert. I have a feeling we will be a playoff team next year with Ford and the rest. However, I have a feeling that Jack with start the season as the starting PG. I see Ford gone within 2-3 years as well. He wont be here past his current contract. With that said, I think JJ is a solid pick up.

bigrichard82
06-28-2008, 01:17 AM
I forgot one thing.....Did anyone see Jerryd's face when we drafted him? He did not want to be here. Rush is happy to be here. That can make a big difference in performance. I think each player is a good fit for the franchise in which they will play.

Does anyone think this will force our hand in re-signing Kareem?

Taterhead
06-28-2008, 01:21 AM
I forgot one thing.....Did anyone see Jerryd's face when we drafted him? He did not want to be here. Rush is happy to be here. That can make a big difference in performance. I think each player is a good fit for the franchise in which they will play.

Does anyone think this will force our hand in re-signing Kareem?

What are you talking about? Are you an expert face reader or something? I thought he just looked relieved the wait was finally over.

kellogg
06-28-2008, 01:26 AM
Have to admit I thought the same thing when we drafted Bayless...the other person watching with me commented first 'he doesn't look too happy' when we picked him. Admittedly I'm not a 'face reader' but he sure didn't look elated and sure didn't seem happy when Steven A interviewed him either.

Taterhead
06-28-2008, 01:26 AM
Just as the earlier post said, why did all the other teams pass on Bayless? My guess is that they figure that he would not cut it as a PG. That means he his an undersized SG who will be abused on the defensive end. Pairing him with a big guard who can play the point (Brandon Roy) is ideal. It allows him to focus solely on scoring. Do I like this deal, no, but for Bayless to be successful in Indiana, the Pacers would have to get a big guard just so he could fit in. Also, I believe Bird has been high on Rush for a long time, the Pacers probably would have drafted him in 2006 instead of S. Williams. Mike Wells was hinting on Brandon Rush and Hibbert a week ago, so he definitely has inside connections. Also, I have a hard time believing in a pre-arranged deal before the teams know who's there, Conseco would be on fire if the Pacers traded Westbrook away.

The Pacers have a big guard who can handle the ball in Dunleavy already.

ChicagoJ
06-28-2008, 01:26 AM
TJ Ford is not a backup. He was in Toronto by circumstance, not by talent.

I also disagree on the fragile comment. Fragile is being in and out of the lineup constantly with nagging, persistent injuries. He's either totally fine, or he gets his spine whacked.

He doesn't strike me as any more talented than a number of PGs (including Jack) - I guess I figure if a guy is under 6'3" he better play MUCH bigger than he is. I think he plays small but I don't enjoy watching Toronto play so I try not to.

JO has chronic knee problems. That's fragile. Ford is one nasty hard foul from retirement and potential paralysis - a foul that almost every other player in the league could take and walk away from and shoot FTs after. That's fragile.

But the biggest difference is that insurance would pick up the balance of TJ Ford's contract because he would be done. That wouldn't be the case if JO had another 40-game season.

Hicks
06-28-2008, 01:27 AM
No, I noticed that too when I watched some of the draft today on Tivo. He looked unhappy to me. I didn't sense tremendous joy from Rush or anything like that, but he didn't look flat out sour. Jerryd and his family looked like they were at a funeral.

MyFavMartin
06-28-2008, 01:35 AM
Have to admit I thought the same thing when we drafted Bayless...the other person watching with me commented first 'he doesn't look too happy' when we picked him. Admittedly I'm not a 'face reader' but he sure didn't look elated and sure didn't seem happy when Steven A interviewed him either.

I don't think it was he was unhappy about Indiana. Anyone who was going to go between 3 and 5 or 6 and falls to 11 would have that look, too.

MagicRat
06-28-2008, 01:38 AM
:lol:

I've been waiting for that one for 24 hours.

I'm a little slow......

http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/baylesswagner.jpg

bigrichard82
06-28-2008, 01:39 AM
What are you talkin g about? Are you an expert face reader or something? I thought he just looked relieved the wait was finally over.

Not a face reader, but seriously......the dude was not happy. Would you want to have been drafted by the pacers? Not a good situation for him or us. He would not have stayed past his rookie contract anyway.

MyFavMartin
06-28-2008, 01:42 AM
Bayless will be a good defender at the PG position. He has the size and quickness and alright strength. Yes he would be overmatched at SG and time will tell whether he's more like Billups, Barbosa, or Ben Gordon, but I was impressed by him while watching him play alongside Budinger in Zona's backcourt. I think Pacer fans will look back on this trade wondering what if...

But I could be wrong. I'll just have to wait about 5 years for a "I told you so..." I think Anthem and Shade will be me to it, though.

Don't get me wrong. I like Rush and Jack, but think when you have a chance at a premier PG and increase his chances of developing by learning under someone like TJ Ford... who knows...

Infinite MAN_force
06-28-2008, 01:58 AM
TJ Ford is a backup, though. And fragile.

I'm not sure what to think of Jack.

Some people around here are seriously undervaluing TJ Ford.

Taterhead
06-28-2008, 02:21 AM
Not a face reader, but seriously......the dude was not happy. Would you want to have been drafted by the pacers? Not a good situation for him or us. He would not have stayed past his rookie contract anyway.

You make a lot of assumptions. You know what he was thinking, you know what he wanted and you also know what he would've done in 4-5 years?

For the record I would love to be drafted by any NBA team in the lottery.

Anyways, you're good.

bigrichard82
06-28-2008, 02:28 AM
You make a lot of assumptions. You know what he was thinking, you know what he wanted and you also know what he would've done in 4-5 years?

For the record I would love to be drafted by any NBA team in the lottery.

Anyways, you're good.

Dude was pissed. I dont have to make assumptions about his feelings. The dude is way too arrogant for his own good. I know I am good. If you were projected at 4 and got drafted by an underachieving at 11 would you be happy? If I were in his shoes, I would much rather play with Oden and Aldrige than Dunleavy and Granger. Not to mention, there is a reason we can not sign a FA of high caliber. It is no different in the draft. When you get drafted you have to live with it.....when you have the choice to sign with whoever it is a different story. I would be surprised if Danny wants to re-sign, but I hope he does.

PacerFan31
06-28-2008, 02:46 AM
I saw this and thought it was funny. No one can talk about the trade like it was done, but the NBA can release a photo of him wearing a Pacers hat and holding the jersey lol


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/70/fullj.4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d/4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d-getty-80976323jp016_nba_draft.jpg

underwave
06-28-2008, 06:53 AM
It's funny that people agree with that statement now. Yesterday, some were trying to justify the trade by saying a team couldn't win with Bayless. He wasn't a team player and he didn't make others better.

But now, it's almost a sure thing he wins one.

Edit: Also, can someone please tell me why Rush is more of a sure thing? Is it because he's played college ball for 2 more years? Or maybe because he's 21 instead of 19? I don't think that is legitimate reasoning. If you look at his bio, he showed no improvement statistically over 3 years. To me, that means he is less of a sure thing. Not to mention the fact that he played with better players. He wasn't the sole focus of the other team's defensive strategy, so it's easier for him to get by without having his weaknesses exposed.

On the other hand, who did Bayless have? Budinger? He's decent I guess. But no matter who Arizona played, you knew every single night that Bayless was going to be the #1 priority when it came to stopping the Cats.

:dance:savior has arrived. some guys talking about rush being better than bayless without any reason. plus rush had a serious injuries during his college career and that's a FACT.(whether he played well after that doesn't matter. rush, i have nothing personal though. iw wish him the best. but we are talking about the FACTS here)

Will Galen
06-28-2008, 07:09 AM
Hey, I've already said that I like Jack and I like Rush. I think they'll be good additions to the team, and I think we'll win more games next year than this year.

But let's not sprinkle sugar on a turd and call it a cookie. We made a bad trade.

I think everyone is aware of your opinion by now after 6,000 posts.

underwave
06-28-2008, 07:26 AM
I forgot one thing.....Did anyone see Jerryd's face when we drafted him? He did not want to be here. Rush is happy to be here. That can make a big difference in performance. I think each player is a good fit for the franchise in which they will play.

Does anyone think this will force our hand in re-signing Kareem?

he looked just fine. i think you're talking about the the face he made when he was making when he first heard his name in the green room. well, maybe it's because of the frustration that he slipped to #11. He looked happy when he was shaking his hands with stern and while taking photo.(i doubt the reason he smiled is stern. i really doubt it.)
look at the photo. he looks happy and fine wearing pacers hat.

Anthem
06-28-2008, 07:50 AM
I don't think it was he was unhappy about Indiana. Anyone who was going to go between 3 and 5 or 6 and falls to 11 would have that look, too.
Yeah. It had nothing to do with Indy... he wasn't thrilled to be in Portland either. But it had nothing to do with the town and everything to do with the fact that ten teams passed on him.

He looked fine later... it was just when he was waiting for his name to be called that he was hurt.

indygeezer
06-28-2008, 07:53 AM
I saw this and thought it was funny. No one can talk about the trade like it was done, but the NBA can release a photo of him wearing a Pacers hat and holding the jersey lol


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/70/fullj.4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d/4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d-getty-80976323jp016_nba_draft.jpg

Where'd you find that??

Putnam
06-28-2008, 08:11 AM
So no matter what reality looks like, we can tell ourselves we came out ahead.


I've been watching for this word.

The reality is that Bayless went 11th in the draft. The reality is that all the mock drafts that had him going higher were, insofar as reality is concerned, wrong.

So the Pacers traded the 11th pick for the 13th pick, and balanced the deal by getting a good backup point guard in place of a guy who hasn't fit in.

Nobody has yet (I don't think) mentioned that having Ford and Bayless could have lead to a controversy at point guard. Between Ford and Jack, we've got an obvious starter and an obvious backup. No worries.

underwave
06-28-2008, 08:16 AM
I've been watching for this word.

The reality is that Bayless went 11th in the draft. The reality is that all the mock drafts that had him going higher were, insofar as reality is concerned, wrong.

So the Pacers traded the 11th pick for the 13th pick, and balanced the deal by getting a good backup point guard in place of a guy who hasn't fit in.

Nobody has yet (I don't think) mentioned that having Ford and Bayless could have lead to a controversy at point guard. Between Ford and Jack, we've got an obvious starter and an obvious backup. No worries.

listing bayless on #11 doesn't have any meaning or we just don't know the real reason. it could either be negative or positive one. And the most correct(as far as i know) mock draft DE listed bayless on #11.

Putnam
06-28-2008, 08:32 AM
listing bayless on #11 doesn't have any meaning or we just don't know the real reason.



I don't understand this statement. Bayless actually went #11 in the draft, where we picked him. That does have meaning for the Pacers.

If anything was meaningless, it was all the made-up lists published before the draft that had him going higher.

Maybe that is your point.

D-BONE
06-28-2008, 08:46 AM
I am a little heartbroken that we didnt keep bayless, but...........I dont know if bayless would have been what we had hoped with this roster. I have a feeling he would have been a Pacer only long enough for someone else to reap the benefits. I can live with Rush and Hibbert. I have a feeling we will be a playoff team next year with Ford and the rest. However, I have a feeling that Jack with start the season as the starting PG. I see Ford gone within 2-3 years as well. He wont be here past his current contract. With that said, I think JJ is a solid pick up.

JJ could open as the starter, but I'd be surprised solely based on TJ's previous situation in Toronto. TJ being injured or ineffective leading to Jack eventually assuming the starting role sounds more plausible to me. However, I'm just glad we've got 2 reasonable options and I'll be interested to see how it all plays out.

Ford moving on sometime within the scope of his remaining contract would not surprise me. Of course, there is the possibility that TJ even goes beyond normal expectations and avoids problems due to his health condition. That would be great. I tend to think of Ford as more transitional while we search for where to get a better option.

I think Jack may be the more likely of the two to end up with us longer term because of he's shown a willingness to come off the bench, play both G positions, and by all accounts is a solid team guy. We'll see how next season goes and how much he'd expect to reup his current deal when that time comes.

underwave
06-28-2008, 08:52 AM
the fact that he slipped to #11 from #3 doesn't mean anything like he has a negative to reason to be slipped. we just don't know the reason and also should consider the teams needs.

Major Cold
06-28-2008, 08:59 AM
Bayless has his work cut out for him.
Blake and Rodriguez are established on this team

Rodriguez and Roy are combo guards.

Webster is still there.

Bayless is still young and green. The negatives he had in college will no net him outstanding minuets. Rush could get more minuets than Bayless.

Anthem
06-28-2008, 09:11 AM
Rush could get more minuets than Bayless.
:pray:

Rookies need minutes to develop... sticking Rush at the end of the bench won't help his game.

I'll be thrilled if we move Dun this year. That doesn't mean I don't like the guy, but he's not our future at SG or SF.

ChicagoJ
06-28-2008, 09:47 AM
Between Ford and Jack, we've got an obvious starter and an obvious backup. No worries.

No we don't. For whatever reason, both guys are FORMER starters. Both are still very young. And both, while an upgrade over 40-games-per-season Tinsley, aren't much of an upgrade over the imaginary - healthy-happy-motivated Tinsley.

We're not going to know who is better until training camp.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Kenny Smith/ Sam Cassell 24/24 spilt of the PG minutes this season.

ChicagoJ
06-28-2008, 09:50 AM
:pray:

Rookies need minutes to develop... sticking Rush at the end of the bench won't help his game.

I'll be thrilled if we move Dun this year. That doesn't mean I don't like the guy, but he's not our future at SG or SF.

Rush and Hibbert both need to go straight to the starting lineup. The heck with this season's W-L record. We're four years away, and if we leave them on the bench this season, we'll still be four years away next summer.

I'm really happy about putting Dunn in the sixth-man role, however. You can rotate through Danny/ Rush/ Dunleavy and have enough minutes for all three. If we can't get rid of Shawne Williams and refuse to buy him out, you can give him four minutes per game there, I guess.

CableKC
06-28-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm sure that it's been said already...but if it looks like Bird and KP had a prearranged agreement for Augustin, Westbrook....then maybe Bird/KP didn't anticipate one for Bayless or they did :shrug:

Although I wouldn't be surprised if Bird didn't have a "Plan C for Bayless" in place with KP.....maybe the best Bird could get was a deal without any picks....regardless of whether Bayless or Westbook was on the board.

NapTonius Monk
06-28-2008, 01:43 PM
I saw this and thought it was funny. No one can talk about the trade like it was done, but the NBA can release a photo of him wearing a Pacers hat and holding the jersey lol


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/70/fullj.4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d/4b3d3a682edcfc58993e3fd76851309d-getty-80976323jp016_nba_draft.jpg

The trade that can't be discussed is the Toronto deal including the Hibbert pick. That won't be official until July 9. This deal involving Portland is ok to discuss.

count55
06-28-2008, 01:47 PM
The trade that can't be discussed is the Toronto deal including the Hibbert pick. That won't be official until July 9. This deal involving Portland is ok to discuss.

Actually, I don't think it is. Jack made only $1.2mm this past season, so the deal wouldn't work under the cap as constructed prior to July 1. He jumped to $2,000 for next season, so it has the exact same limitation that the Ford deal has...it can't be consummated (or officially acknowledged/announced) until the next fiscal year...which probably will start July 9 (though it has been delayed before.