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ABADays
06-27-2008, 02:09 PM
I do not, nor will I ever remotely suggest I know as much about the game as a lot of posters in this forum. But I do read about every thread and the reading has been really interesting over the past 24 hours. A lot of the reviews are in and the analysis of each of the players strengths and weaknesses discussed.

From my perspective, a lot of the younger members (30-) are the ones screaming about Bayless. It's the "superstar" mentality that permeates the NBA right now. It is also what has reduced the game to individuals and not teams.

I am absolutely convinced what Bird has done in the last two days is the beginning of building a TEAM. A squad that is not dominated by an individuals play or anchored by an individuals salary. Quite frankly, I was tired of hearing about our stars.

I think the "Butler" approach is going to work here. If anyone knows what a TEAM is it's Bird. Even in his superstar years in Boston it was still about TEAM. I think he had all the puzzle pieces in his head and I think he did a pretty d*mn good job of putting them together. This team has more balance than we've seen in quite a while. And I'm not sure he is done yet.

You did good Larry!

PS Tbird - I will be waiting for your analysis now of the TEAM.

2minutes twowa
06-27-2008, 02:14 PM
I do not, nor will I ever remotely suggest I know as much about the game as a lot of posters in this forum. But I do read about every thread and the reading has been really interesting over the past 24 hours. A lot of the reviews are in and the analysis of each of the players strengths and weaknesses duscussed.

From my perspective, a lot of the younger members (30-) are the ones screaming about Bayless. It's the "superstar" mentality that permeates the NBA right now. It is also what has reduced the game to individuals and not teams.

I am absolutely convinced what Bird has done in the last two days is the beginning of building a TEAM. A squad that is not dominated by an individuals play or anchored by an individuals salary. Quite frankly, I was tired of hearing about our stars.



I think the "Butler" approach is going to work here. If anyone knows what a TEAM is it's Bird. Even in his superstar years in Boston it was still about TEAM. I think he had all the puzzle pieces in his head and I think he did a pretty d*mn good job of putting them together. This team has more balance than we've seen in quite a while. And I'm not sure he is done yet.

You did good Larry!

PS Tbird - I will be waiting for your analysis now of the TEAM.
:amen:

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 02:18 PM
I do not, nor will I ever remotely suggest I know as much about the game as a lot of posters in this forum. But I do read about every thread and the reading has been really interesting over the past 24 hours. A lot of the reviews are in and the analysis of each of the players strengths and weaknesses duscussed.

From my perspective, a lot of the younger members (30-) are the ones screaming about Bayless. It's the "superstar" mentality that permeates the NBA right now. It is also what has reduced the game to individuals and not teams.

I am absolutely convinced what Bird has done in the last two days is the beginning of building a TEAM. A squad that is not dominated by an individuals play or anchored by an individuals salary. Quite frankly, I was tired of hearing about our stars.

I think the "Butler" approach is going to work here. If anyone knows what a TEAM is it's Bird. Even in his superstar years in Boston it was still about TEAM. I think he had all the puzzle pieces in his head and I think he did a pretty d*mn good job of putting them together. This team has more balance than we've seen in quite a while. And I'm not sure he is done yet.

You did good Larry!

PS Tbird - I will be waiting for your analysis now of the TEAM.

Hey now I've supported the trade since I got back from the draft party!

pizza guy
06-27-2008, 02:23 PM
ABA,

I'm glad you posted this because I've been waiting to post anything until I found just the right thread.

I couldn't agree more.

I think Bird has always had the TEAM concept in his mind, and these moves were steps in that direction. I would agree that we're not done yet, but we're starting on the right foot.

And for all of those who keep comparing Bayless to Arenas, what ABA said is the perfect rebuttle.

--pizza

Wu-Gambino
06-27-2008, 02:25 PM
I do not, nor will I ever remotely suggest I know as much about the game as a lot of posters in this forum. But I do read about every thread and the reading has been really interesting over the past 24 hours. A lot of the reviews are in and the analysis of each of the players strengths and weaknesses duscussed.

From my perspective, a lot of the younger members (30-) are the ones screaming about Bayless. It's the "superstar" mentality that permeates the NBA right now. It is also what has reduced the game to individuals and not teams.

I am absolutely convinced what Bird has done in the last two days is the beginning of building a TEAM. A squad that is not dominated by an individuals play or anchored by an individuals salary. Quite frankly, I was tired of hearing about our stars.

I think the "Butler" approach is going to work here. If anyone knows what a TEAM is it's Bird. Even in his superstar years in Boston it was still about TEAM. I think he had all the puzzle pieces in his head and I think he did a pretty d*mn good job of putting them together. This team has more balance than we've seen in quite a while. And I'm not sure he is done yet.

You did good Larry!

PS Tbird - I will be waiting for your analysis now of the TEAM.

Agreed with you on this, and I think you really expressed (much better than I could) why I am so excited with the recent moves by Bird.

I'm really hoping (and I think he is) Bird is following the models like Portland and New Orleans of taking teams that have been in the dumps and going after players that will fit into the system, not just going after the best players possible.

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 02:30 PM
You're so wise.

count55
06-27-2008, 02:38 PM
Nicely put, ABA...I was disappointed at first, but warmed to the deal by the end of the evening. There's still that minor fascination with what Bayless could be, but I'm getting pretty excited about the team.

If, on Monday, you told me this is where we'd be on Friday, I'd be thrilled.

rexnom
06-27-2008, 02:40 PM
You're so wise.
Almost like a miniature Buddha covered in hair...

jcouts
06-27-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm 29 and I can't stand Bayless (didn't want Gordon either) and love the moves Larry made in the last few days.

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 02:41 PM
Interesting. I think in order to win big in the NBA you need star players. You need them to be the hardest working guys on your team, you need them to get the other lesser players to play as a team. I'll use Garnett and Duncan as two prime examples. They are star players who are unselfish and who promote team basketball. But they are also great players. So sure, build a team, but an NBA team is only as good as their best players. And one thing I know our best players right now are no where near good enough for us to be a 50 plus win team.

ABADays
06-27-2008, 02:41 PM
I guess I should have added in my original post that was has been done to our financial situation was nothing short of genius.

dewman_32
06-29-2008, 12:44 PM
Interesting. I think in order to win big in the NBA you need star players. You need them to be the hardest working guys on your team, you need them to get the other lesser players to play as a team. I'll use Garnett and Duncan as two prime examples. They are star players who are unselfish and who promote team basketball. But they are also great players. So sure, build a team, but an NBA team is only as good as their best players. And one thing I know our best players right now are no where near good enough for use to be a 50 plus win team.
Don't the Pistons pretty much shoot your theory in the foot? They didn't have a true superstar either year they went to the finals. They were the textbook definition of a team. They had some very good players, but superstars, no way.

Look, what Bird did this week was tremendous. He filled the holes that existed, improved the lineup dramatically and set the P's up to be players in the FA market in 2 years. As weak as the EC is right now, the P's should make the playoffs next year with the roster we currently have. Two years from now when the FA market opens up, the P's will have plenty of room under the salary cap to possibly add a "superstar" to what promises to be a very good roster already. Are the P's going to be contending for the EC title next year? No they won't, but give it three years and I think you'll be singing a different tune.

I've been a fan of the Pacers as long as I can remember. Since Reggie's retirement, I just haven't followed the team as I used to. I'm still a fan, but the team was horrible and they've never recovered from "the brawl". With JO's hefty contract gone, Tinsley soon to be gone and possibly another player or two, the future hasn't looked this bright for at least 4 years. We've all got something to actually look forward to again.

I was absolutely thrilled when I saw what the P's did on Draft night. Since I was at work while it was taking place, I missed the announcements and didn't get on the internet until 5 AM CT. I was kind of shocked at the reaction of many on here. I guess I was looking at the big picture, whereas others were looking at the immediate future. It seems that many have since come on board with my take on all of this. I haven't been this proud to be a Pacer fan since before the brawl. I think a lot of us can honestly say that with a bright future ahead for our P's.

Arcadian
06-29-2008, 12:59 PM
We don't have anyone on our roster who would have started for those Detroit teams. While Detriot didn't have a top ten player, Billups, Rip, Prince, and the two Wallaces were one of the best starting 5 top to bottom ever. Talent does matter as does chemistry.

indygeezer
06-29-2008, 01:07 PM
Yes, I do love the Butler model and yes, superstars can be very important IF they buy into the team concept. However, there is no garauntee they will (or anybody will). I do know that we have had a so-called superstar and it ain't been working so try the other way.

Blending in "The Don's" concept of letting them grow and develop as a team, I wonder how much patience LB will have? Can he take a couple of slow years to see them eventually meld together and work as a unit or will he follow the Larry Brown mold and constantly be tinkering?

owl
06-29-2008, 01:13 PM
Granted the Pacers don't have the talent of the Pistons team although I believe
Granger this coming year will merit having the talent to play as a starter on that Piston team/
Who would you rather have, Tayshaun or Granger?
Plus give some of these young guns time to develope.

Infinite MAN_force
06-29-2008, 01:22 PM
We don't have anyone on our roster who would have started for those Detroit teams. While Detriot didn't have a top ten player, Billups, Rip, Prince, and the two Wallaces were one of the best starting 5 top to bottom ever. Talent does matter as does chemistry.

I would think Granger starts over Prince.

Rush's ceiling is probably something along the lines of Rip.

Arcadian
06-29-2008, 01:23 PM
If the argument that our best player could conceivable be better than their "worst" starter at the time then that goes to show what a huge a gap in talent there is.

This isn't to say we suck. I think we got some great pieces. I don't think it is a fair argument though to say, "teams don't need talent look at the Detroit team." In reality they were and awfully talented team 1-5.

I'm waiting for Rush to play a game before we start comparing him to Rip.

Infinite MAN_force
06-29-2008, 01:30 PM
-

Look, what Bird did this week was tremendous. He filled the holes that existed, improved the lineup dramatically and set the P's up to be players in the FA market in 2 years. As weak as the EC is right now, the P's should make the playoffs next year with the roster we currently have. Two years from now when the FA market opens up, the P's will have plenty of room under the salary cap to possibly add a "superstar" to what promises to be a very good roster already. Are the P's going to be contending for the EC title next year? No they won't, but give it three years and I think you'll be singing a different tune.



I think this is the key.

For right now, we see where this team takes us. Which is probably going to be 1st or 2nd round playoff exits for the next two years... but valuable experience.

Than when we have a bunch of expiring contracts in 2011 you have lots of options for trying to aquire that "star" player(s) to put it over the top. One key piece + expiring + future picks gets you that disgruntled superstar on a bad team. I think this is a much better method than sucking and relying on ping pong balls.

Trader Joe
06-29-2008, 02:03 PM
Yes, I do love the Butler model and yes, superstars can be very important IF they buy into the team concept. However, there is no garauntee they will (or anybody will). I do know that we have had a so-called superstar and it ain't been working so try the other way.

Blending in "The Don's" concept of letting them grow and develop as a team, I wonder how much patience LB will have? Can he take a couple of slow years to see them eventually meld together and work as a unit or will he follow the Larry Brown mold and constantly be tinkering?

The "Butler" model is going to have to find a new name. Their recruiting class this year is ridiculous.

idioteque
06-29-2008, 02:31 PM
Yes, I went bat**** crazy when the trade happened. Why? Draft Hype, that's it and that's all. There are real concerns about Bayless, he's far from the sure thing. Sometimes I (and some others) get too riled up about the mocks and take them for gospel.

ABADays
06-29-2008, 03:26 PM
The "Butler" model is going to have to find a new name. Their recruiting class this year is ridiculous.

In what way? :confused:

Justin Tyme
06-29-2008, 03:34 PM
I wonder how much patience LB will have?

What makes you so sure Herb and Mel are going to be that patient?

I don't see Bird having the patience to spare. What one must remember is Bird is on a short leash. He only has 2 years left on his contract... same as JOB.

wintermute
06-29-2008, 10:25 PM
agreed with aba's post.

bottomline for me is that this team appears to have a direction again. bird apparently wants to collect a bunch of smart, mature, tough players - the very opposite of what afflicted us before - and he went out and did it. going with bayless over rush and jack would have been "falling in love with talent" all over again. not saying that bayless will go artest on portland, but rush and jack fit what we're trying to do here and bayless apparently does not. there was a time when we chased talent above all else (artest, tinsley, sjax) and it's good to see that we're not going down that route again.

perhaps in a few years time, we will be pining for a superstar to lead us beyond the first round. and perhaps bayless could have developed into that player. but, on the other hand, maybe we can't even reach that point without the strong foundation that bird is building right now.

Roaming Gnome
06-29-2008, 10:39 PM
agreed with aba's post.

bottomline for me is that this team appears to have a direction again. bird apparently wants to collect a bunch of smart, mature, tough players - the very opposite of what afflicted us before - and he went out and did it. going with bayless over rush and jack would have been "falling in love with talent" all over again. not saying that bayless will go artest on portland, but rush and jack fit what we're trying to do here and bayless apparently does not. there was a time when we chased talent above all else (artest, tinsley, sjax) and it's good to see that we're not going down that route again.

perhaps in a few years time, we will be pining for a superstar to lead us beyond the first round. and perhaps bayless could have developed into that player. but, on the other hand, maybe we can't even reach that point without the strong foundation that bird is building right now.


:yes: I like this post a lot.

Young
06-29-2008, 10:47 PM
agreed with aba's post.

bottomline for me is that this team appears to have a direction again. bird apparently wants to collect a bunch of smart, mature, tough players - the very opposite of what afflicted us before - and he went out and did it. going with bayless over rush and jack would have been "falling in love with talent" all over again. not saying that bayless will go artest on portland, but rush and jack fit what we're trying to do here and bayless apparently does not. there was a time when we chased talent above all else (artest, tinsley, sjax) and it's good to see that we're not going down that route again.

perhaps in a few years time, we will be pining for a superstar to lead us beyond the first round. and perhaps bayless could have developed into that player. but, on the other hand, maybe we can't even reach that point without the strong foundation that bird is building right now.

Well if Bird "wants to collect a bunch of smart, mature, tough players" that sounds good.

However in 2006 when we took Shawne Williams and James White he seemed to have a direction he wanted to go in at that time too. Whatever happened to that?

There are a lot of factors that can go into this and a lot of things have changed and can change over time. I mean I hope we do get a team full of what you described. If that is what Bird wants to do that sounds great. I guess I am just wondering if he will follow through with it or not or give in to temptation when the time arises. Only time will tell.

McKeyFan
06-29-2008, 11:03 PM
Who would you rather have, Tayshaun or Granger?


Tayshaun.

Both shoot well.

Prince is the better defender. And Prince has a backing down, post up move that Danny does not have.

wintermute
06-29-2008, 11:44 PM
Well if Bird "wants to collect a bunch of smart, mature, tough players" that sounds good.

However in 2006 when we took Shawne Williams and James White he seemed to have a direction he wanted to go in at that time too. Whatever happened to that?

There are a lot of factors that can go into this and a lot of things have changed and can change over time. I mean I hope we do get a team full of what you described. If that is what Bird wants to do that sounds great. I guess I am just wondering if he will follow through with it or not or give in to temptation when the time arises. Only time will tell.

that's a valid point.

at that time bird said he wanted to add some athleticism to the team. on the other hand it was pretty clear that the changes were cosmetic - the core players remained unchanged, and the subsequent trade for dunleavy and murphy surely didn't help our athleticism. bird was also quick to reverse course - james white was dumped early, and shawne looks to be on his way out now.

in hindsight, that direction was a false start, and not something that bird really believed in. chalk it to a rookie gm mistake, or maybe the 2 headed gm syndrome.

now though, bird has cleaned house from top to bottom and it's getting pretty clear that we're committing our future to certain types of players. what's more, it seems that this direction is something that pacer fans are agreeable with. the only question is, can this style win? and that's what we'll have to wait on.

BlueNGold
06-30-2008, 12:02 AM
It has been a little comical. From no milk drinkers, to let's get rid of our shooters and go long and lean, to run and gun, to milk-drinkers only....

The pendulum has certainly swung. I really think he's getting some OJT and maybe not the best guidance...but he seems to be figuring out some things. He gets another couple feet of rope IMO. He has a passion for the job that should help him. If we make the playoffs this year, he should be able to engrave his name in the door...

Jose Slaughter
06-30-2008, 03:41 AM
Almost like a miniature Buddha covered in hair...


Mini Buddha - yes

hair - not so much

stay safe :buddies:

underwave
06-30-2008, 03:59 AM
I would think Granger starts over Prince.

Rush's ceiling is probably something along the lines of Rip.

you serious?
http://www.nba.com/games/20071228/INDDET/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20071229/DETIND/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20080213/INDDET/boxscore.html
stats sometimes matter but sometimes don't or i should say just win it.

OTD
06-30-2008, 04:03 AM
Remember who taught Larry about the NBA. Red knew how to build a team and win.