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Shade
06-27-2008, 12:36 PM
As most of you know well by now, I was very, very happy when we drafted Jerryd Bayless, and very, very upset when we traded him to Portland. Now, after sleeping on it, I can honestly say that I still feel the same way. Bayless will be a much better player in this league than anything we got from Portland.

With that said, I still feel I should comment on our spoils from last night:

Brandon Rush - I have nothing against Rush personally. I simply doubt whether he can ever be more than the sixth man on good team. Rush is about as solid of a player as you can get; he doesn't do anything really great, but he has no major weaknesses either. He will improve, but I don't feel he has a ton of upside, certainly not as much as Bayless. I would have been content with Rush at #11 had Jerryd not fallen to us.

Roy Hibbert - Hibbert is one of three big men that I really didn't want us to take last night (the others being Koufos and Jordan). Hibbert is painfully slow. He doesn't have much of an offensive game and is an underwhelming rebounder for his size. He's an excellent shot-blocker and can defend quite well if he can stay in front of his man. Sadly, that's a big "if." If Roy and Troy ever see play on the floor simultaneously, it will be like watching instant replay in slow motion; that duo will be hugely susceptible to opposing speed in the front court. I honestly would have been happier with Arthur at #17.

Jarrett Jack - I like Jack, but he is really a career back-up on a good team. He's undoubtedly an upgrade over Diener and will be able to steady the ship well enough if Ford goes down. Good defender with adequate offense, he seems to complement Ford well enough. More of a pure point than Bayless, but with nowhere near the talent or upside.

Josh McRoberts - This will be short. He sucks, he has attitude problems, and he's one of my least favorite players in the league. I hope he doesn't make the team at all, and we DESPERATELY need help at the position he plays.

I am disappointed that we didn't acquire another pick or two in the late first/early second. We should have been able to get Portland's #33; I seriously doubt it would have been a deal-breaker for them. Some very good players slipped far that could have been had for cheap (such as Chalmers, Arthur, and possibly even Jordan would have been worth a shot where he was drafted).

Post-draft, I do feel like we'll be a better team next season than we were last, but not by much. We still need to make moves to fix the front court. Pre-Bayless trade, I would have given Bird an A. Post-Bayless trade, it feels more like a B- to me. We can't keep dealing quality for quantity. Not a bad draft, but not as good as it could have been.

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 01:57 PM
Shade. Just how good do you think Bayliss will be??

Mourning
06-27-2008, 02:03 PM
Apparantly good enough for Portland to have him fourth on their their total draft board and good enough to take the risk of giving us their pick which was only two picks later then our own aswell as throw in Jarett Jack and McRoberts or whatever his name is (I seriously don't know this guy :)).

Everyone credits Portland with how good they scout and pick and the deals they make and apparantly they think this high of him. That tells me a lot atleast. Combine that with how high he was placed on draftboards pre-draft.

I'm still not happy about it, but I have come to accept it. I still think our team is still better then a few days ago.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 02:07 PM
Apparantly good enough for Portland to have him fourth on their their total draft board and good enough to take the risk of giving us their pick which was only two picks later then our own aswell as throw in Jarett Jack.

Everyone credits Portland with how good they scout and pick and the deals they make and apparantly they think this high of him. That tells me a lot atleast. Combine that with how high he was placed on draftboards pre-draft.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Could mean Portland is wrong, or that players after number 4 just aren't very good.

I guess my point is this. If Bayliss is as good as Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Brandon Roy and Brandon Rush isn't then it was a bad trade. But I keep going back to the fact that 50% of the top 13 players will not live up to anything close to expectations - so lets wait a see - in two years we'll know. No one really knows right now.

Mourning
06-27-2008, 02:22 PM
Could mean Portland is wrong, or that players after number 4 just aren't very good.

I guess my point is this. If Bayliss is as good as Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Brandon Roy and Brandon Rush isn't then it was a bad trade. But I keep going back to the fact that 50% of the top 13 players will not live up to anything close to expectations - so lets wait a see - in two years we'll know. No one really knows right now.

I aggree with that. But, there's a reason he was so high up literally everyone's draftboards I would say.

I'm ust very surprised everyone has praised Portland as THE model of how to rebuild very effectively and efficiently and as the franchise that the last two years has basically done everything right and now says that they must see it wrong with Bayless, etc, etc. Sure, every franchise makes mistakes, but given their recent past I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to them.

Doesn't mean I don't like Rush or Jack, because I do like them.

I think I would be happy if Rush does indeed turn out to be a pretty elite defender. Doesn't have too score that much to me, has to be able to pose a longrange threat though, but the defence has to be VERY good and is the key for me. Average won't cut it for me and would mean the trade failed to me.

But, that's just me. Like some others said before the draft I would have been happy with Rush, no doubt.

Not sure what to think of Hibbert yet, except that I'm not sure he fits that well in our system offensively. He's a good character and nice guy, but I will have to see it work in practice first. Anyway, the coming year is obviously a transition year.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 02:30 PM
I aggree with that. But, there's a reason he was so high up literally everyone's draftboards I would say.

I'm ust very surprised everyone has praised Portland as THE model of how to rebuild very effectively and efficiently and as the franchise that the last two years has basically done everything right and now says that they must see it wrong with Bayless, etc, etc. Sure, every franchise makes mistakes, but given their recent past I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to them.

Doesn't mean I don't like Rush or Jack, because I do like them.

I think I would be happy if Rush does indeed turn out to be a pretty elite defender. Doesn't have too score that much to me, has to be able to pose a longrange threat though, but the defence has to be VERY good and is the key for me. Average won't cut it for me and would mean the trade failed to me.

But, that's just me. Like some others said before the draft I would have been happy with Rush, no doubt.

Not sure what to think of Hibbert yet, except that I'm not sure he fits that well in our system offensively. He's a good character and nice guy, but I will have to see it work in practice first. Anyway, the coming year is obviously a transition year.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:



If he was up so high on everyone's draft board, then why did he slip to 11 - I have no idea why he fell, but other teams most not have been so enamored with him either. Maybe because he is a tweener - not really a point, but not really a shooting guard.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm ust very surprised everyone has praised Portland as THE model of how to rebuild very effectively and efficiently and as the franchise that the last two years has basically done everything right and now says that they must see it wrong with Bayless, etc, etc. Sure, every franchise makes mistakes, but given their recent past I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to them.
Yeah, I've been laughing about that all morning. Over the past three years, Portland's scouting department has beaten the ever-living crap out of ours. They've made better decisions (often at our expense) in every draft.

Now all of the sudden we're better off without Bayless because Bird is building a team? If only he built a team as well as Portland, I'd be thrilled.

Portland won this trade, no doubt about it.

grace
06-27-2008, 02:37 PM
Shade, Shade, Shade. Do I honestly have to remind you that it could have been worse? A picture is worth a thousand words.










http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/ap_joakim_noah_070629_ms.jpg

Anthem
06-27-2008, 02:38 PM
If he was up so high on everyone's draft board, then why did he slip to 11 - I have no idea why he fell, but other teams most not have been so enamored with him either. Maybe because he is a tweener - not really a point, but not really a shooting guard.
And because there were a lot of small guards in this year's draft... the market was saturated.

We knew he wasn't going top-3... that was Rose/Beasley/Mayo.

I think Seattle made a mistake at 4... Bayless would have been better for them than Westbrooke. Bayless is more skilled, but Westbrooke looks better in 1-on-0 tryouts. The Grizz are set at guard and Love was ideal for them. Donnie wants players that are long and skilled (twss)... he's still chasing Marcus Camby. The Cats botched the draft because Larry Brown's team always botch the draft... they get the guy Larry wants instead of the best guy on the board. Lopez was a no-brainer for the Nets, who already have Devin Harris.

Basically, last night was a perfect storm for a top-5 talent dropping to the Pacers. And we botched it.

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 02:44 PM
I can't wait to see who is right two years from now

Mourning
06-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Shade, Shade, Shade. Do I honestly have to remind you that it could have been worse? A picture is worth a thousand words.










http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/ap_joakim_noah_070629_ms.jpg


:spitout: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

RWB
06-27-2008, 02:48 PM
Basically, last night was a perfect storm for a top-5 talent dropping to the Pacers. And we botched it.

Anthem, I've always respected your opinions so honestly who will Bayless be comparable to in 3 to 4 years?

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 02:49 PM
As I've said...I know very little about Bayless. But I'm not sure the fact that he "dropped" is a huge red flag if you look at the logic of the other teams.

There are three teams that clearly "passed" on Bayless. Obviously 10 did (11 if you count us), but the three that declined to take Jerryd and took a similar player instead were Seattle, LA Clippers and Charlotte.

Seattle - They clearly moved up pre-draft to get Westbrook. So I see this more as the LOVED Westbrook than disliked Bayless.

LA Clips - This is the worrisome one. Gordon had a subpar season, though he had legit reasons. Still, LA wanted a tweener and took Gordon over Bayless, even though the pre-draft consensus was that Bayless had a bigger upside. He also has better handles...though a worse J. This one is curious, although certainly understandable seeing as how last November it seemed to be Beasley, Mayo, Rose, Gordon and then everyone else.

Charlotte - This wasn't surprising. LB likes true PGs and dealing with shoot-first PGs like AI and Starbury probably took some years off his life. He's taking over a new job, wants someone who can run the show and clearly doesn't think Ray Felton is that guy. So the fact they passed on Bayless here isn't a red flag to me so much as philosophical difference.

Looking at it that way, it's not as egregious that Bayless fell that far (Simmons and Ford predicted it too). The only other teams that didn't go big (aside from Rose and Mayo) were NYK and MIL and I'm not sure them passing on Bayless is a huge red flag either. Maybe MIL, but I'm guessing Donnie is fine with Crawford and he and/or D'Antoni were just simply enamored with the The Rooster.

So basically, the only two teams that may have really said "no thank you" about Bayless are MIL and LAC. That may mean something...or it may not.

We'll see eventually.

Mourning
06-27-2008, 02:51 PM
And because there were a lot of small guards in this year's draft... the market was saturated.

We knew he wasn't going top-3... that was Rose/Beasley/Mayo.

I think Seattle made a mistake at 4... Bayless would have been better for them than Westbrooke. Bayless is more skilled, but Westbrooke looks better in 1-on-0 tryouts. The Grizz are set at guard and Love was ideal for them. Donnie wants players that are long and skilled (twss)... he's still chasing Marcus Camby. The Cats botched the draft because Larry Brown's team always botch the draft... they get the guy Larry wants instead of the best guy on the board. Lopez was a no-brainer for the Nets, who already have Devin Harris.

Basically, last night was a perfect storm for a top-5 talent dropping to the Pacers. And we botched it.

That's the way I see it aswell, but it is what it is man. Let's just hope for the best now and try to remain positive that we got some nice pieces back.

One more thing though. Granger fell a lot aswell when we were able to draft him. The thing with him was that other teams apparantly felt he was an injury risk. With Bayless people mentioned his persona or character, but I think that can be fixed in a young men. Nobody stays the same forever.

But, that's just my :twocents:.

My advice? Pretend like the trade never happenned and we just drafted Brandon Rush and gotten Jack for Ike. I think that would work for me. UNLESS Rush doesn't become the superb defender some people say he is. Then I will be pissed (AGAIN! :lol:)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

mrknowname
06-27-2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah, I've been laughing about that all morning. Over the past three years, Portland's scouting department has beaten the ever-living crap out of ours. They've made better decisions (often at our expense) in every draft.

Now all of the sudden we're better off without Bayless because Bird is building a team? If only he built a team as well as Portland, I'd be thrilled.

Portland won this trade, no doubt about it.

based on what??? i'll wait until these guys actually step on the court to decide who won the trade

i think rush will be a better pro than bayless though

Mourning
06-27-2008, 02:53 PM
Anthem, I've always respected your opinions so honestly who will Bayless be comparable to in 3 to 4 years?

You might turn that around aswell and ask the same question about Rush, offcourse, right? :)

RWB
06-27-2008, 02:55 PM
You might turn that around aswell and ask the same question about Rush, offcourse, right? :)

Absolutely my friend. I don't know if Rush should have been the pick, but this gloom and doom that is permeating from threads just seems a little thick.

ABADays
06-27-2008, 02:55 PM
because Bird is building a team

Now you're catching on.

JayRedd
06-27-2008, 03:03 PM
I think Rush has Caron Butler upside.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:06 PM
I think Rush has Caron Butler upside.

Very good comparison. Though Rush is a pure two, while I think Caron is a pure three.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 03:15 PM
Now you're catching on.
What Bird wants to build is a Euroleague team.

You might think that style of basketball is prettier, but I'd prefer a team that can win.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 03:17 PM
based on what??? i'll wait until these guys actually step on the court to decide who won the trade
Fine by me. So you'll proclaim me right come November?


i think rush will be a better pro than bayless though
Wager?

Anthem
06-27-2008, 03:17 PM
Anthem, I've always respected your opinions so honestly who will Bayless be comparable to in 3 to 4 years?
I think he'll be better than Devin Harris, who I like.

He won't be in the Paul/Deron/(Rose?), but he'll be near the top of the second tier.

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:47 PM
Shade. Just how good do you think Bayliss will be??

Borderline All-Star.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:51 PM
Borderline All-Star.

You're getting your panties in a bunch over a possible borderline all-star?

Shade
06-27-2008, 03:53 PM
You're getting your panties in a bunch over a possible borderline all-star?

I'm trying to be conservative, honestly. I don't think that's his ceiling, but it depends on other circumstances, such as the quality of competition and how good the team he plays for is.

Neither Rush nor Jack will be a borderline All-Star.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 03:54 PM
Rush could be a borderline all star.

Borderline all star is a very flexible term.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 03:56 PM
Rush could be a borderline all star.

Borderline all star is a very flexible term.
Bayless will be a much better player than Rush.

Hoop
06-27-2008, 04:01 PM
Portland won this trade, no doubt about it.

You can't possibly know that.

Portland and the Pacers brass don't know that yet. Over half the first round will be a major disappointment, just like every draft. What if Bayless is a Bust? Bayless AND B.Rush could both be busts, we just don't know.

grace
06-27-2008, 04:05 PM
Bayless will be a much better player than Rush.

Just like when Cabbage came and saved the Pacers. In other words you have no idea how good someone is going to be until you actually see him play for the team.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:11 PM
Just like when Cabbage came and saved the Pacers. In other words you have no idea how good someone is going to be until you actually see him play for the team.
Then it's too bad we didn't pick 30th instead of 11th. Who knows, the guy at 30 might end up having a better career than the guy at 5.

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 04:13 PM
Bayless will be a much better player than Rush.

Rush will be a much better player than Bayless.


Man, those words were easy to type. Truth is, neither of us no for sure.
I do know Jack is a much better player than Diogu though.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Truth is, neither of us know for sure.
Well sure. But you could just as easily say that for Rose, Beasley, or Mayo. Nothing's absolutely certain, but it's a pretty fair bet.

I mean, there's nobody outside of Indiana that thinks Rush will end up being the better player. Find me somebody who thinks that the Pacers got the best player in last night's deal.

MyFavMartin
06-27-2008, 04:19 PM
You can't possibly know that.

Portland and the Pacers brass don't know that yet. Over half the first round will be a major disappointment, just like every draft. What if Bayless is a Bust? Bayless AND B.Rush could both be busts, we just don't know.

No but the current perception is that Portland won this trade on percieved value. Watch the video of Legler on ESPN breaking down the trade and he is at a loss for words. sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=ind

You have a top 4-5 talent drop to 11 and are able to acquire him for a mid-round (#13) and a backup PG.

Unbelievable...

Trader Joe
06-27-2008, 04:19 PM
Well sure. But you could just as easily say that for Rose, Beasley, or Mayo. Nothing's absolutely certain, but it's a pretty fair bet.

I mean, there's nobody outside of Indiana that thinks Rush will end up being the better player. Find me somebody who thinks that the Pacers got the best player in last night's deal.

I see more people saying we won the deal than people saying we lost it.

Unclebuck
06-27-2008, 04:21 PM
If someone wants to send me tapes of Rush and Bayliss, i'll glady watch them and I'll give you my opinion

Anthem
06-27-2008, 04:24 PM
I see more people saying we won the deal than people saying we lost it.
Where?

Most of the credit Bird's getting for this draft has to do with moving Jermaine.

And my initial statement stands... nobody seems to be saying that Rush will be better than Bayless.

AesopRockOn
06-27-2008, 04:25 PM
I think most people outside of Indiana are shocked Larry Bird knows how to use a phone.

Jose Slaughter
06-27-2008, 04:35 PM
Starting with the belief that Bird had Rush as one of the 2 guys he thought would be there before the draft started, I think Rush was at the top of his list for players available at 11.

Bird had alreadyt aquired at true point guard when dealing for TJ Ford.

The Pacers, under O'Brien need help with their 3 point FG's. Not so much shooting them, but making them. Rush is a true 2 with excellent range on his shot. I'm not comparing him to Reggie, however when Reggie came in he was not viewed highly either & had to earn the starting spot. Rush has Reggie range, lets see if he can grow into the starter there.

What Bird managed to do with the trade is completely wipe Tinsley off the depth chart by getting Jack.

He got the guy he wanted with Rush & at the same time got a solid backup for TJ.

Not to mentioned he moved a player that O'Brien was never going to use. Not with Baston coming in anyway.

So with one deal Bird not only managed to get the player he wanted, he managed to completely eliminate Tinsley, upgrade the PG spot & move an unwanted player from our lineup.

I was as happy as everyone with the Bayless pick but I think we have a better "team" after the trade than before it.

Coop
06-27-2008, 04:43 PM
I've been trying to calm myself down after this trade since last night, but I just can't force myself to do it.

What the hell are we going to do in 2-3 years if/when Ford either leaves or doesnt live up to what we thought? We're going to have to address the PG spot AGAIN. I just don't think thats something you want to do. Especially so when you have a shot at picking up a guy that could be in your backcourt for the next 10 years and has a shot to be a hybrid of Billups/Arenas.

You can always find defensive minded shooting guards. You can't always find Jerryd Bayless.

I'm sure someone will tell me how Bayless has attitude problems or a higher chance of being a bust though while Brandon Rush is a sure thing. Funny thing is, he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet either.

Taterhead
06-27-2008, 04:55 PM
Rush will be a much better player than Bayless.


Man, those words were easy to type. Truth is, neither of us no for sure.
I do know Jack is a much better player than Diogu though.

He is? He wasn't good enough that Portland thought he had a future with them. They will have 40 million in cap space next year and didn't even want to spend a small fraction of it to keep him around. He was a young PG on a lottery team who viewed thier biggest weakness as PG. I am sorry, but the guy clearly didn't cut it from thier standpoint, it's hard to say he will here. It seems to me they are a lot more similar than you think.

It's a case of one team who has had a very good track record the last few years adding yet another potentially critical piece vs. a team who has made all the wrong moves during that same period. I have my doubts that Bird pulled one over on Portland.


Of course noone knows how these guys will turn out, which is exactly why you don't do this trade. We are betting the less talented player will be better in the end, which is the equivilent of betting on the Browns or the Eagles to win the SB next year over the Cowboys, Giants, Patriots or Colts.

MyFavMartin
06-27-2008, 05:10 PM
any chance we could have traded them ford and kept bayless?

d_c
06-27-2008, 05:22 PM
What Bird managed to do with the trade is completely wipe Tinsley off the depth chart by getting Jack.


Sure, but it did absolutely nothing to wipe Tinsley off the salary cap, which is the more important thing.

Bball
06-27-2008, 05:26 PM
Then it's too bad we didn't pick 30th instead of 11th. Who knows, the guy at 30 might end up having a better career than the guy at 5.


You realize Bayless fell to 11th where he was only picked then because the Pacers had designs on trading him....?

The counter argument against this trade always revolves around Bayless being projected to be a high draft pick. Projections are one thing... the reality is he WASN'T a high draft pick.

-Bball

MyFavMartin
06-27-2008, 05:35 PM
You realize Bayless fell to 11th where he was only picked then because the Pacers had designs on trading him....?

The counter argument against this trade always revolves around Bayless being projected to be a high draft pick. Projections are one thing... the reality is he WASN'T a high draft pick.

-Bball

Yeah, and I guess Granger sucks too.

Shade
06-27-2008, 06:20 PM
any chance we could have traded them ford and kept bayless?

Absolutely:

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/450194 (http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53244/20080627/suns_and_blazers_nearly_landed_ford/)

The Blazers were competing with us for Ford before the JO trade went down.

Anthem
06-27-2008, 06:29 PM
What Bird managed to do with the trade is completely wipe Tinsley off the depth chart by getting Jack.
Tinsley was already off the depth chart.

I won't be impressed until we actually trade Tinsley and get him off the cap.

BlueNGold
06-27-2008, 07:04 PM
Borderline All-Star.

Bayless is no Gerald Green type pick. He has a great work ethic, is very confident, very, very quick and very skilled. He also played for a national program in Arizona. The only question I would have is with his head. It will be interesting to compare Kareem Rush's little brother with who I believe will be a larger, better version of Tony Parker. He has a ton of talent and we gave it away.

Shade
06-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Bayless is no Gerald Green type pick. He has a great work ethic, is very confident, very, very quick and very skilled. He also played for a national program in Arizona. The only question I would have is with his head. It will be interesting to compare Kareem Rush's little brother with who I believe will be a larger, better version of Tony Parker. He has a ton of talent and we gave it away.

Yup. This was highway robbery, people. I really, really want to let this go, but whenever the thought of the trade enters my head, I just get furious all over again.

Let's just say I'm really glad I was in a public place with friends last night.

Hicks
06-27-2008, 07:59 PM
Starting with the belief that Bird had Rush as one of the 2 guys he thought would be there before the draft started, I think Rush was at the top of his list for players available at 11.

Bird had alreadyt aquired at true point guard when dealing for TJ Ford.

The Pacers, under O'Brien need help with their 3 point FG's. Not so much shooting them, but making them. Rush is a true 2 with excellent range on his shot. I'm not comparing him to Reggie, however when Reggie came in he was not viewed highly either & had to earn the starting spot. Rush has Reggie range, lets see if he can grow into the starter there.

What Bird managed to do with the trade is completely wipe Tinsley off the depth chart by getting Jack.

He got the guy he wanted with Rush & at the same time got a solid backup for TJ.

Not to mentioned he moved a player that O'Brien was never going to use. Not with Baston coming in anyway.

So with one deal Bird not only managed to get the player he wanted, he managed to completely eliminate Tinsley, upgrade the PG spot & move an unwanted player from our lineup.

I was as happy as everyone with the Bayless pick but I think we have a better "team" after the trade than before it.

Yep.

Hicks
06-27-2008, 08:00 PM
Yeah, and I guess Granger sucks too.

Good grief this argument is so weak. I've seen it a lot since last night.

Granger fell because they were worried about his knee. When a guy falls with no medical concerns, it's either about talent or it's about attitude. I think attitude's the big "winner" here, and that's probably why he fell.

PaceBalls
06-27-2008, 09:14 PM
I've been trying to calm myself down after this trade since last night, but I just can't force myself to do it.

What the hell are we going to do in 2-3 years if/when Ford either leaves or doesnt live up to what we thought? We're going to have to address the PG spot AGAIN. I just don't think thats something you want to do. Especially so when you have a shot at picking up a guy that could be in your backcourt for the next 10 years and has a shot to be a hybrid of Billups/Arenas.

You can always find defensive minded shooting guards. You can't always find Jerryd Bayless.

I'm sure someone will tell me how Bayless has attitude problems or a higher chance of being a bust though while Brandon Rush is a sure thing. Funny thing is, he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet either.


I think 3 years is about as long as you really want to have someone on contract in the NBA. If they maintain good quality play and stay relatively healthy you find a way to keep them and sign them to another 3 year deal.

You pretty much cancelled your statement out with the last line there defending Bayless, because you are right... "Funny thing is, he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet." He is not Chauncy Billups, or Arenas.

As it stands right now TJ Ford, Danny Granger are much better players, these guys have proven themselves in the NBA and you know what you are getting.

The Bayless hype is rising to to the level of our friends from Slovenia or wherever Cabbage was from. Remember all those threads about how Jasikevicisciousness was as good as Michael Jordan, the best PG in the NBA, the guy who would lead the Pacers to the championship ad naseum...

Anthem
06-27-2008, 09:19 PM
Granger fell because they were worried about his knee. When a guy falls with no medical concerns, it's either about talent or it's about attitude. I think attitude's the big "winner" here, and that's probably why he fell.
Why did Paul Pierce fall?

Sometimes guys just drop. Sometimes it's a fluke. Danny's knee wasn't the only reason he dropped; teams had already dialed into their picks and didn't react when a new guy was available.

eldubious
06-27-2008, 09:44 PM
Is there any way that we didn't get Arthur and it just wasn't announced yet? I can't believe Bird didn't get an extra pick out of the deal, if he just settled for McRoberts, then he's clueless. Portland is offering Channing Frye for next to nothing, can we trust Bird to get him without givng away all of the draft picks, I doubt it.

imawhat
06-27-2008, 09:49 PM
Is there any way that we didn't get Arthur and it just wasn't announced yet? I can't believe Bird didn't get an extra pick out of the deal, if he just settled for McRoberts, then he's clueless. Portland is offering Channing Frye for next to nothing, can we trust Bird to get him without givng away all of the draft picks, I doubt it.

Unfortunately not. Arthur was traded from NOH to Portland to Houston to Memphis. I think I got that right.

Jose Slaughter
06-27-2008, 10:22 PM
This was posted by you at 4:43 6-27.


I've been trying to calm myself down after this trade since last night, but I just can't force myself to do it.

What the hell are we going to do in 2-3 years if/when Ford either leaves or doesnt live up to what we thought? We're going to have to address the PG spot AGAIN. I just don't think thats something you want to do. Especially so when you have a shot at picking up a guy that could be in your backcourt for the next 10 years and has a shot to be a hybrid of Billups/Arenas.

You can always find defensive minded shooting guards. You can't always find Jerryd Bayless.

I'm sure someone will tell me how Bayless has attitude problems or a higher chance of being a bust though while Brandon Rush is a sure thing. Funny thing is, he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet either.


This was posted by you 7:52 on 6-25


Eh..I just posted this in the trade thread.

I'm going with Rush at 11. It might seem like a stretch, but I feel he's the safest choice and he will pair up well with Ford and Granger.

At 17, we need to go big. I have no interest in Jordan, McGee, Hibbert, or Koufos. I'll be disappointed if we end up with any of them. My final 2 choices are Jason Thompson of Rider or Marreese Speights of Florida. Speights is my first choice, but if he isn't there, we should go with Thompson.

Edit: I'll also add in that I do like Ajinca, so I guess it would be a wash between him or Thompson.

Wish one is it?

McKeyFan
06-27-2008, 10:28 PM
Not so much shooting them, but making them.

I love dry humor.

Jose Slaughter
06-27-2008, 10:33 PM
Shade

I don't know if this will help any but I just thought of it while at dinner tonight.

Each player that Bird has added in the past week, only plays 1 position.

Rasho & Hibbert are 5's only.

Baston is only a 4.

Rush was listed as a 2/3 but its pretty clear he will only be a 2 in this league.

Ford & Jack could never be anything other than points.

I left off McRoberts because I seriously doubt he makes the roster & will only be added to the deal to make it work under the CBA.

Rose "might" be a more talented player but he is not a true point guard. Not saying he couldn't learn the position & someday excel there but looking at it front Bird's chair.... can he wait 2 or 3 years to find out?

One other thing & I'm fully aware how little this stat will mean but I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

Go look at TJ's fantasy stats for the past 3 seasons, using the numbers from Sports.ws.

Coop
06-27-2008, 10:34 PM
Jose, if you go through some of my other posts after the draft, you'll see that I do in fact like Rush. He was my choice at 11 and I think he'll be a good player for us. Before the draft though, I never would have guessed Bayless would fall to us. That's what I'm upset about. Rush is a solid pick at 11, but Bayless is a great one.


Another post by me during the draft:


Basically, if everyone lives up to their potential in this trade, the Pacers lose. I like Rush, and I said we should take him at 11. That was before Bayless dropped though. Bayless has the potential to be Arenas, while Rush could be a more consistent Posey.


I'll eventually get over it. I just can't help but feel like we shot ourselves in the foot. We had a golden opportunity and we went the "safe route".

Someone else mentioned it earlier..at some point, you have to start taking risks. We have some good role players in place and a pretty good 2nd option in Granger. We need to start looking at who is going to be the prime time player on this team. Bayless, IMO, could have been that guy. I don't think Ford is a long term solution here, and JB would have been able to step in after 2-3 years and take over at the point.

Jose Slaughter
06-27-2008, 10:42 PM
But how can you tell?

Nobody can.

I wanted Rush all along too & I was as happy as anyone when Lopez went to NJ, leaving us Bayless. I was also just as upset as Shade when the trade was announced. I wanted to lead a group of us down to the war room & beat some sense into Bird.

But after calming myself & looking at it another way I have come to understand why the deal was made.

In short, I've either drank the kool-aide or the Pod people have gotten to me.

I would like to have the time to go back & read everything thats been posted on here the past 2 days but I doubt most of us have that type schedule.

I just remember your comments because we wanted the same 2 guys at 11 & 17.

Hicks
06-27-2008, 11:07 PM
I think referring to Rush as just a defensive-minded shooting guard sells him short. He also shoots over 40% from 3. A lot of guards can either shoot well, or defend well. This guy does both. And he seems like a good character, too.

Jose Slaughter
06-27-2008, 11:13 PM
I've wanted Bird gone for just about as long as he's been here but after the past couple days I'd like to see what this guy can do over the next year or so.

MagicRat
06-27-2008, 11:48 PM
Clearly Larry thinks Bayless needs to step his game up......

http://www.goazcatsblog.com/bayless-needs-to-step-his-game-up/

BruceLeeroy
06-27-2008, 11:59 PM
That tatoo is garbage. Maybe this kid does have a big head.

Stevenson's may be the worst ever.

Coop
06-28-2008, 12:05 AM
He has an bad attitude because his name is tattood on his back?


Wow.

Mourning
06-28-2008, 12:16 AM
Why did Paul Pierce fall?

Sometimes guys just drop. Sometimes it's a fluke. Danny's knee wasn't the only reason he dropped; teams had already dialed into their picks and didn't react when a new guy was available.

Exactly! JayRedd had a good summary of why Bayless might have dropped and it looked very rational to me and in the end the conclusion was that only Milwaukee and the Clippers passing him is something we need to study here.

Now WHERE was that post again? Damn!

JayRedd
06-28-2008, 01:22 AM
That tatoo is garbage. Maybe this kid does have a big head.

Stevenson's may be the worst ever.

Richard Jefferson: "I get no respect."


Exactly! JayRedd had a good summary of why Bayless might have dropped and it looked very rational to me and in the end the conclusion was that only Milwaukee and the Clippers passing him is something we need to study here.

Now WHERE was that post again? Damn!

No idea. Too many threads. But yeah...Seattle/NYK too but only cause they were obviously enamored with Westbrook/Super Mario, respectively, more so than anything related to Bayless.

Mourning
06-28-2008, 01:52 AM
Ha! Found it ;)


As I've said...I know very little about Bayless. But I'm not sure the fact that he "dropped" is a huge red flag if you look at the logic of the other teams.

There are three teams that clearly "passed" on Bayless. Obviously 10 did (11 if you count us), but the three that declined to take Jerryd and took a similar player instead were Seattle, LA Clippers and Charlotte.

Seattle - They clearly moved up pre-draft to get Westbrook. So I see this more as the LOVED Westbrook than disliked Bayless.

LA Clips - This is the worrisome one. Gordon had a subpar season, though he had legit reasons. Still, LA wanted a tweener and took Gordon over Bayless, even though the pre-draft consensus was that Bayless had a bigger upside. He also has better handles...though a worse J. This one is curious, although certainly understandable seeing as how last November it seemed to be Beasley, Mayo, Rose, Gordon and then everyone else.

Charlotte - This wasn't surprising. LB likes true PGs and dealing with shoot-first PGs like AI and Starbury probably took some years off his life. He's taking over a new job, wants someone who can run the show and clearly doesn't think Ray Felton is that guy. So the fact they passed on Bayless here isn't a red flag to me so much as philosophical difference.

Looking at it that way, it's not as egregious that Bayless fell that far (Simmons and Ford predicted it too). The only other teams that didn't go big (aside from Rose and Mayo) were NYK and MIL and I'm not sure them passing on Bayless is a huge red flag either. Maybe MIL, but I'm guessing Donnie is fine with Crawford and he and/or D'Antoni were just simply enamored with the The Rooster.

So basically, the only two teams that may have really said "no thank you" about Bayless are MIL and LAC. That may mean something...or it may not.

We'll see eventually.