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Cherokee
06-26-2008, 11:06 AM
Pacers said to be among the teams interested in getting Shawn Marion. Discuss. Link:
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53205/20080626/raptors_pacers_and_clippers_interested_in_marion/

Speed
06-26-2008, 11:09 AM
Well I don't see how the money would fit, but he'd could be a Power Forward in Obies system. He plays tough D and is an excellent rebounder I think. I just hate the ugly shot, but I guess if it goes in.

I can't see how the Pacers could afford him, at all.

idioteque
06-26-2008, 11:12 AM
I like Marion. Reggie is his favorite player of all time as well, so he's at least doing something right.

317Kim
06-26-2008, 11:14 AM
I'd like to see him here. It'll be interesting to see how the speculation progresses....or dies off. Hopefully the first.

SoupIsGood
06-26-2008, 11:15 AM
Love to have him. But what could we give that the heat would actually want?

idioteque
06-26-2008, 11:16 AM
Future Pacers starting lineup?

T.J. Ford
Brandon Rush
Danny Granger
Shawne Marion
Speights/Hibbert

?

Coop
06-26-2008, 11:17 AM
If you thought we were gonna have cap room after this year, wait until Marions $18 million contract expires. I think that Bird is probably more interested in that then he is locking up Marion long-term. He also becomes extremely valuable at the trade deadline for a contender looking to push themselves over the top.

OakMoses
06-26-2008, 11:20 AM
He would be a great fit, but I really can't see Miami taking back the guys we'd have to give them (Murphy, Tinsley, etc.)

Maybe we could work something out for Dunleavy + 'Quis or Rasho or Jeff and a pick.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 11:20 AM
Love to have him. But what could we give that the heat would actually want?
I'm wondering the same thing. Marion is a 17mil expiring contract.

Daniels/Rasho (both exp), Tinsley, Shawne, and Ike would work financially for Blount and Marion. That would be an incredible trade for us, but not so good for Miami.

If we included the #17 pick, would that be enough? I wouldn't think so, but I keep hearing that they want to move Marion.

What kind of deals might other teams give?

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 11:22 AM
Dunleavy/Quis expiring or Dunleavy/Foster are the only two remotely realistic things that would make the money work.

And I can't see Riley having any interest in Dunleavy given his preference for defense. Even if he did like Dun a little, they can do a lot better than that. Maybe if we include #17 they'd start listening.

SoupIsGood
06-26-2008, 11:24 AM
I forgot about Rasko. So then some combo of Rasho/Jeff/Daniels/Ike could prevent them from taking on any extra salary burden, so we can do that. What do we do to make our deal sweeter than other teams' with expiring contracts to offer? A pick?

Oneal07
06-26-2008, 11:31 AM
I think we should try to pick up Villanueva. I doubt we'll get Marion

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
So then some combo of Rasho/Jeff/Daniels/Ike could prevent them from taking on any extra salary burden, so we can do that. What do we do to make our deal sweeter than other teams' with expiring contracts to offer? A pick?

Why in god's name would they want that? Four expirings and a mid 1st Rounder? They'd probably just rather keep the 4-time All Star and see how that goes.

Will Galen
06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
I think the Pacers probably expressed interest before trading JO. I don't think there's a realistic chance of that happening now.

Shade
06-26-2008, 11:43 AM
I'd think Miami would really push for #11.

Are we sure that Quis is an expiring? RealGM has him listed as having two years left on his contract.

naptownmenace
06-26-2008, 11:47 AM
I think the Pacers probably expressed interest before trading JO. I don't think there's a realistic chance of that happening now.


Why in god's name would they want that? Four expirings and a mid 1st Rounder? They'd probably just rather keep the 4-time All Star and see how that goes.

What they said.

I'm a big Marion fan but I don't think this makes any sense for Miami and can't see them agreeing to do this.

Kegboy
06-26-2008, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I think this is moot after the Toronto trade.

2minutes twowa
06-26-2008, 11:54 AM
I'd think Miami would really push for #11.

Are we sure that Quis is an expiring? RealGM has him listed as having two years left on his contract.

He has a team option for the 09-10 season.

eldubious
06-26-2008, 11:57 AM
I think we should try to pick up Villanueva. I doubt we'll get Marion

Me too, I bet all it would take is that 17th pick and Ike. I would do that.

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 11:59 AM
i don't know how we do this.

Dr. Goldfoot
06-26-2008, 12:01 PM
I'd like to see Marion on this team. He did attend Vincennes. He'd instantly be the best player on the team.

Hicks
06-26-2008, 12:02 PM
Dunleavy/Quis expiring or Dunleavy/Foster are the only two remotely realistic things that would make the money work.

And I can't see Riley having any interest in Dunleavy given his preference for defense. Even if he did like Dun a little, they can do a lot better than that. Maybe if we include #17 they'd start listening.

You could go Dunleavy, Foster, Williams, and if necessary, #11 and/or #17.

Dr. Goldfoot
06-26-2008, 12:03 PM
i don't know how we do this.

Shawne + Dun + Quis + Pick

Shawne + Tins + Dun + Pick

Shawne + Ike + Dun + Pick + rights to Lorbek, Stanko, Betts

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 12:07 PM
Are we sure that Quis is an expiring? RealGM has him listed as having two years left on his contract.

That's what i thought actually. (And if so, that's even worse for Miami.)

Hoopshype has another one wrong I suppose? They have a team option for next year, but now that you mention it, I thought it was a player option next year. I don't think I hate him as much if it's a team option.

Anyone know for sure?

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Shawne + Dun + Quis + Pick

Shawne + Tins + Dun + Pick

Shawne + Ike + Dun + Pick + rights to Lorbek, Stanko, Betts

i meant more what riley would accept -- not what we could offer. i just think there would probably be better trade options available.

mrknowname
06-26-2008, 12:08 PM
i'd rather go after tyrus thomas. younger, cheaper, and easier to get.

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Anyone know for sure?

don't trust hoopshype.

go with shamsports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pacers.jsp

Shade
06-26-2008, 12:09 PM
I think we should try to pick up Villanueva. I doubt we'll get Marion

That would be ironic, considering SSJ4Charlie and TJ Ford were traded for one another.

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 12:12 PM
i meant more what riley would accept -- not what we could offer. i just think there would probably be better trade options available.

Yup.


don't trust hoopshype.

go with shamsports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pa...ies/pacers.jsp (http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pacers.jsp)

Right. And phew...For a second I was beginning to think my Quisy hatred was borderline unfounded. Good to know I can refill my heart with contempt.

Oneal07
06-26-2008, 12:13 PM
Yes it would be. . . But I think it would work out well for us

Kraft
06-26-2008, 12:20 PM
younger, cheaper, and easier to get.

Great line of thinking, in many, many ways.

croz24
06-26-2008, 12:37 PM
again, if marion can be a "power forward" in this system, why can't joe alexander?

Plax80
06-26-2008, 12:50 PM
You could go Dunleavy, Foster, Williams, and if necessary, #11 and/or #17.

I think they would gladly accept :

Dunleavy
Foster
#11

for Marion

You could get greedy and offer them:

Dunleavy
Ford
Foster
#11

for

Marion
Blount

and then around and trade with Cleveland

Marion
Tinsley

for

Wally
Damon Jones
Snow
#19

That would get you down to only owing Blount and Murphy past this next season.

You can still draft your two projects at 17 and 19 and choose to either move Granger or shawne or both next summer.

We could conceivably get the payroll to about $25mm for next season and down to Murphy's $11 mm for the following year.

I like the possibilities.

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Right. And phew...For a second I was beginning to think my Quisy hatred was borderline unfounded. Good to know I can refill my heart with contempt.

you hate him because he has a team option?

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 01:03 PM
you hate him because he has a team option?

I must be colorblind.

Okay...so it is a team option then? So he is essentially an expiring? Yes?

What do you think...Should I hate him?

Slick Pinkham
06-26-2008, 01:07 PM
A Miami Heat beat writer was on local radio this morning saying that if they take Beasley, as expected, they could be interested in Jamaal Tinsley.

Yes, a person actually suggested that someone on this planet would be interested in trading FOR Tinsley.
Something isn't clicking with Marion and Riley. Marion was upset being in a losing situation after being in Phoenix.

If there's any way on Earth to deal Tinsley and add enough salary to get back Marion, I'd love it. Not for Marion per se, but for an 18 million dollar contract ending after only one more year.

Getting rid of JT would truly be another Christmas.

git 'er done, Larry!

LoneGranger33
06-26-2008, 01:09 PM
Wait, wouldn't he still be losing in Indiana? I guess he'd be coming for the nightlife?

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 01:10 PM
I must be colorblind.

Okay...so it is a team option then? So he is essentially an expiring? Yes?

essentially. unless we or a team we trade him too decides to keep him for that extra delicious final season at $7mil.

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 01:11 PM
That's what i thought actually. (And if so, that's even worse for Miami.)

Hoopshype has another one wrong I suppose? They have a team option for next year, but now that you mention it, I thought it was a player option next year. I don't think I hate him as much if it's a team option.

Anyone know for sure?

I'm pretty sure its a team option.

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 01:14 PM
Good Lord, if Riles is that interested in Tinsley, he must be going senile. However pairing Marion with Granger and Ford is very, very intriguing.

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 01:15 PM
essentially. unless we or a team we trade him too decides to keep him for that extra delicious final season at $7mil.

So unless we or a team we trade him too is collectively drunk?

2minutes twowa
06-26-2008, 01:19 PM
A Miami Heat beat writer was on local radio this morning saying that if they take Beasley, as expected, they could be interested in Jamaal Tinsley.

Yes, a person actually suggested that someone on this planet would be interested in trading FOR Tinsley.
Something isn't clicking with Marion and Riley. Marion was upset being in a losing situation after being in Phoenix.

If there's any way on Earth to deal Tinsley and add enough salary to get back Marion, I'd love it. Not for Marion per se, but for an 18 million dollar contract ending after only one more year.

Getting rid of JT would truly be another Christmas.

git 'er done, Larry!

:pray:

avoidingtheclowns
06-26-2008, 01:20 PM
So unless we or a team we trade him too is collectively drunk?

yessir

LoneGranger33
06-26-2008, 01:50 PM
I guess Miami wants to get fleeced by us again. See Barac, Stanko.

Shade
06-26-2008, 01:56 PM
No way I deal Ford to them along with our #11.

MyFavMartin
06-26-2008, 02:00 PM
tinsley for haslem works.

would fill a need if the heat take beasley...

tinsley could mentor beasley on proper night club etiquette. :D

Anthem
06-26-2008, 02:13 PM
Riles has actually said in the past that he liked Tinsley... it's because Tinsley plays the best games of his life against Miami.

Kid Minneapolis
06-26-2008, 02:18 PM
HUGE fan of Marion. One of my favorite players in the league.

CableKC
06-26-2008, 02:21 PM
The RealGM article just says that the Heat have fielded overtures regarding Marion. Is there anything that says that the Pacers are STILL interested in Marion now that we have moved JONeal?

I read on one of the many "JONeal for Ford" articles that Bird peddled JONeal to every team before the Trade Deadline. I guessing that he would have done the same thing for Marion until a few days ago. I could have easily seen Bird call up Riley and suggest that we simply swap JONeal for Marion.

I don't mind having a player like Marion....but I'm not inclined to believe that we have the resources to acquire him. On top of that....Marion won't stay in Indy after his Contract is up.

count55
06-26-2008, 02:22 PM
Good Lord, if Riles is that interested in Tinsley, he must be going senile. However pairing Marion with Granger and Ford is very, very intriguing.

Well, for some perspective, Riles did trade for Antoine Walker and Jason Williams when they had bad contracts and their value was ****.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 02:22 PM
No way I deal Ford to them along with our #11.


If you could save close to $10mm trading by adding Ford and Blount to the deal, you would have to make that trade.........you are now focusing on making a run in 2011 at the earliest so Ford is unnecessary regardless of how good anyone thinks he is.

count55
06-26-2008, 02:22 PM
The RealGM article just says that the Heat have fielded overtures regarding Marion. Is there anything that says that the Pacers are STILL interested in Marion now that we have moved JONeal?

I read on one of the many "JONeal for Ford" articles that Bird peddled JONeal to every team before the Trade Deadline. I guessing that he would have done the same thing for Marion until a few days ago. I could have easily seen Bird call up Riley and suggest that we simply swap JONeal for Marion.

I don't mind having a player like Marion....but I'm not inclined to believe that we have the resources to acquire him. On top of that....Marion won't stay in Indy after his Contract is up.

Good point...I was thinking the same thing.

Coop
06-26-2008, 02:28 PM
If you could save close to $10mm trading by adding Ford and Blount to the deal, you would have to make that trade.........you are now focusing on making a run in 2011 at the earliest so Ford is unnecessary regardless of how good anyone thinks he is.


Getting rid of Ford with the #11 just to save 10 mil is not worth being stuck with Tinsley again. Forget it. I say there's no way we package those two together.

Also, how does making a run in 2011 make Ford unnecessary? Wouldn't that put him at the prime age of 28?


Edit: I just went back and read your original post because I skipped over it before. If I'm reading it correctly, we are basically trading...

Dunleavy, Foster, Tinsley, Ford, #11

for

Wally, Damon Jones, Snow, Blount, #19


That just might be the worst trade I have ever seen. I don't care how much money you're clearing up. It's not like you're going to persuade anyone to come to Indiana anyways.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 02:34 PM
Good point...I was thinking the same thing.


I think marion is more attractive now than ever. He can mentor the young players we are bringing in from this draft and MORE importantly will come off of our books after this season.

If Miami has a legit interest in Dunleavy and Ford you can put together a compelling package that could benefit both teams.

Dun
Ford
Foster
11

for

Marion
Blount

You would be moving $60mm out and bringing back only slightly more than $30mm.

I'm pretty sure the Simon's would be intrigued by that.

Then convince Cleveland to take Marion and Tinsley for Wally, Snow, Jones and 19............and you save another $13mm and get your second young prospect back in this draft.

Larry would have saved the Simon's about $50mm over the next two seasons while still getting the two "studs" he's been so excited about.

cgg
06-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Murphy and Tinsley for Marion works. :-p

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Dun
Ford
Foster
11

for

Blount
Marion

Thats honestly the worst trade I've ever seen someone propose in a serious fashion. It makes no sense for the Pacers.

Chad Ford is his chat today said people aren't even willing to give up lotto picks for Marion because he wants a huge extension. He said the best deal they could hope for was a straight up swap of Marion for Odom.

You give up 3 of our 4 most valuable assets to get Marion. Makes no sense whatsoever.

2minutes twowa
06-26-2008, 02:37 PM
I think marion is more attractive now than ever. He can mentor the young players we are bringing in from this draft and MORE importantly will come off of our books after this season.

If Miami has a legit interest in Dunleavy and Ford you can put together a compelling package that could benefit both teams.

Dun
Ford
Foster
11

for

Marion
Blount

You would be moving $60mm out and bringing back only slightly more than $30mm.

I'm pretty sure the Simon's would be intrigued by that.

Then convince Cleveland to take Marion and Tinsley for Wally, Snow, Jones and 19............and you save another $13mm and get your second young prospect back in this draft.

Larry would have saved the Simon's about $50mm over the next two seasons while still getting the two "studs" he's been so excited about.

Yeah, then we end up with a ton of money and no team.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 02:41 PM
Getting rid of Ford with the #11 just to save 10 mil is not worth being stuck with Tinsley again. Forget it. I say there's no way we package those two together.

Also, how does making a run in 2011 make Ford unnecessary? Wouldn't that put him at the prime age of 28?


Edit: I just went back and read your original post because I skipped over it before. If I'm reading it correctly, we are basically trading...

Dunleavy, Foster, Tinsley, Ford, #11

for

Wally, Damon Jones, Snow, Blount, #19


That just might be the worst trade I have ever seen. I don't care how much money you're clearing up. It's not like you're going to persuade anyone to come to Indiana anyways.


As a longtime Pacer fan, this is not the route I am excited about going either, but since we already have started down this path by giving away JO at his lowest possible value, than you can see that the Simon's have probbaly mandated a cut in payroll.

And even as a fan who wants to see the team do well.........being stuck in the mid 30 win range for the next decade isn't appealing either.

So blow it all up.............save the Simon's $50mm and start drafting in the top 3-5 range for two or three years. After we acquire a stud or two in the 09 and 10 drafts, then maybe a Oden and Conley would be interested in returning as FA once their rookie deals expire.

croz24
06-26-2008, 02:42 PM
who do you actually think we could land via free agency with all of this supposed cap space we will have by acquiring marion? nobody wants to come to indiana, ESPECIALLY considering the state of our franchise. if the pacers are wanting to improve, the only way right now is through the draft and by trading these expiring contracts. we simply cannot rely on free agency to fix this ballclub.

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 02:43 PM
Hey, we'll have the worst team in the history of professional basketball, but at least we'll be saving money. I mean thats the whole point of the NBA right?

JayRedd
06-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Well, for some perspective, Riles did trade for Antoine Walker and Jason Williams when they had bad contracts and their value was ****.

Toine was coming off a 19 ppg/9 rpg season actually.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 02:49 PM
Yeah, then we end up with a ton of money and no team.

I'm not trying to be a jerk..........but we have arguable the worst roster in the league as of now anyway.

Other than the Knicks, name the team that swaps complete rosters with us after this draft.

We have 2 decent assets in granger and Dun.

We have a marginal asset in Ford. (Phx was willing to dump the awful contract of Diaw for him).

Memp has plenty of money and space and Gay, marc Gasol, Conley, the #5 pick and Miller.

Minn has plenty of space and money and jefferson, Foye, Mayo, Brewer, mcCants and a couple other decent young players.

Sea has space, money, Durant, Green, Collison and whomever at #4.

Clips have space , money Brand, Kaman, maggette, #7, Thornton and Livingston.

We are as bad as an NBA franchise can get ............we are capped out ..............the Simons are spending a fortune on dead money contracts, we have no big men and no legit PG.............we're bad defensively...........fan support has dwindled to last in the league..........

Why wouldn't you blow this thing up at this point ??

gph
06-26-2008, 02:50 PM
you know, I don't even live in indiana anymore and I don't understand the whole concept that no player would want to come to indy in free agency. first, indy may be second tier, but it is a hell of a lot better than memphis(ownership), oklahoma city, or to most players, toronto. while miami, phoenix, and la may be ideal destinations, the reality is, whomever has cap room has players willing to come. it is always about the money.

i don't think you worry about pitching the location, i think you worry about pitching the team, the culture, and the money. only issue is, the team and culture are needing heavy clean up still. that is more detrimental than geography.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 02:51 PM
who do you actually think we could land via free agency with all of this supposed cap space we will have by acquiring marion? nobody wants to come to indiana, ESPECIALLY considering the state of our franchise. if the pacers are wanting to improve, the only way right now is through the draft and by trading these expiring contracts. we simply cannot rely on free agency to fix this ballclub.

We won't sign anyone over 1 or 2 years until the summer of 10 or 11 and by then we should have accumulated some of the top picks in each of the next two or three drafts.

2minutes twowa
06-26-2008, 02:57 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk..........but we have arguable the worst roster in the league as of now anyway.

Other than the Knicks, name the team that swaps complete rosters with us after this draft.

We have 2 decent assets in granger and Dun.

We have a marginal asset in Ford. (Phx was willing to dump the awful contract of Diaw for him).

Memp has plenty of money and space and Gay, marc Gasol, Conley, the #5 pick and Miller.

Minn has plenty of space and money and jefferson, Foye, Mayo, Brewer, mcCants and a couple other decent young players.

Sea has space, money, Durant, Green, Collison and whomever at #4.

Clips have space , money Brand, Kaman, maggette, #7, Thornton and Livingston.

We are as bad as an NBA franchise can get ............we are capped out ..............the Simons are spending a fortune on dead money contracts, we have no big men and no legit PG.............we're bad defensively...........fan support has dwindled to last in the league..........

Why wouldn't you blow this thing up at this point ??

I totally understand what you're saying about hitting rock bottom and rebuilding. This needs to happen and is happening. But you can't trade every player for cap space and expect the fans to keep supporting the team. The Simons would be saving millions in salary expense, but their revenue stream would dry up because there would only be 5,000 people at each game. And don't worry, we'll be seeing the bright lights of the NBA lottery again for the next few years.

Coop
06-26-2008, 02:58 PM
Even if we decide to use your way of "blowing it up", there are more productive routes. We can always clear the payroll by trading for expiring contracts. But, I'll be damned if I'm going to give up our most valuable assets for nothing. That trade you posted would need like 3 future 1st rounders before I would consider it.

I'm not against starting over, but I am against tossing every asset we have to the curb without receiving anything in return (**** cap space. That doesnt count as getting something in return.)

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk..........but we have arguable the worst roster in the league as of now anyway.

Other than the Knicks, name the team that swaps complete rosters with us after this draft.

We have 2 decent assets in granger and Dun.

We have a marginal asset in Ford. (Phx was willing to dump the awful contract of Diaw for him).

Memp has plenty of money and space and Gay, marc Gasol, Conley, the #5 pick and Miller.

Minn has plenty of space and money and jefferson, Foye, Mayo, Brewer, mcCants and a couple other decent young players.

Sea has space, money, Durant, Green, Collison and whomever at #4.

Clips have space , money Brand, Kaman, maggette, #7, Thornton and Livingston.

We are as bad as an NBA franchise can get ............we are capped out ..............the Simons are spending a fortune on dead money contracts, we have no big men and no legit PG.............we're bad defensively...........fan support has dwindled to last in the league..........

Why wouldn't you blow this thing up at this point ??

What the heck are you talking about? We just traded a 20 million dollar a year player.
Theres no need to blow it up much more than that other than moving Tinsley.
We have five big assets right now, Granger, Ford, Dun, Foster, and the 11th pick. You want to give up FOUR of those for Marion and Mark Freakin' Blount and then trade Marion to Cleveland.
Theres a big difference between rebuilding and bad management.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 03:03 PM
Theres no need to blow it up much more than that other than moving Tinsley.
I'd give Miami almost anything they wanted if they'd take Tinsley and give back Marion. Foster? No problem. Dunleavy? Done. Young prospects? Sure. Draft picks? Assuming Bayless or Gordon don't slip, I'd give up the #11.

If they asked nicely, I'd even throw in Troy Murphy. :D

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 03:05 PM
I'd give Miami almost anything they wanted if they'd take Tinsley and give back Marion. Foster? No problem. Dunleavy? Done. Young prospects? Sure. Draft picks? Assuming Bayless or Gordon don't slip, I'd give up the #11.

If they asked nicely, I'd even throw in Troy Murphy. :D

Yeah, but Tinsley isn't even in his proposed deal.

Basically we end up with Danny Granger and the expiring contract pu-pu platter as next year's roster.

What would happen in next year's draft or offseason would be a moot point because we'd be the Las Vegas Pacers.

Coop
06-26-2008, 03:06 PM
Sheesh. I guess I just dont have as high an opinion of Marion as some people. Isn't he already like 30? Not to mention he has some serious attitude/arrogance issues. The guy wasn't happy in Phoenix winning nearly 60 games a year. What else do you want?

I would give Miami Foster and Dunleavy, but I'm not about to overpay for someone who won't stick around past this year anyways.

CableKC
06-26-2008, 03:14 PM
who do you actually think we could land via free agency with all of this supposed cap space we will have by acquiring marion? nobody wants to come to indiana, ESPECIALLY considering the state of our franchise. if the pacers are wanting to improve, the only way right now is through the draft and by trading these expiring contracts. we simply cannot rely on free agency to fix this ballclub.
I agree.....I don't think that we can woo some Superstar to Indy....but I am of the opinion that we already have the player that we want to build around and all we need are some players that can come in and fix the problems that we have ( most notably interior and perimeter defenders ).

I think that with SalaryCap Flexibility....we can fix this team over the longhaul and be somewhat competitive...the problem is that it won't happen overnight...but over a period of 2-3 seasons. I have come to accept that our window for a Championship begins after the Celtics/Spurs/Pistons era is over....basically in 2-3 years. Over the next 2-3 seasons......we build not only team chemistry....but we build the team the way we want it build and refine it until we become a perennial Playoff team again ( which I think is Bird's next goal ).

We already started the rebuilding process yesterday.....we tore down a big remnant of the Brawl team. We now have a new core players to build around, we will continue to add players via draft and/or trade that fit our style and needs, continue to play the way that JO'B wants us to play for another season ( basically what we have done already after this JONeal trade and the eventual Tinsley buyout ) and then evaluate what we have at the end of the season....something that I think actually last season while JONeal was gone and Granger and Dunleavy were running the show.

After the 2008-2009 season is done...we evaluate again to see what else needs to be fixed and try to "patch up" the holes that we discover and go after that type of player in Free Agency or trade. The difference now is that with draft picks, Expiring Contracts that we have amassed....we can make some mid-season adjustments ( if needed ) then go through another "evaluation" period for another season. We can then go into the 2009 offseason with the ability to fix the holes that we discovered. Whereas before...we didn't have any flexiblility or ability to fix problems due to JONeal's contract and the many huge Contracts that we took on with the GSW trade.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 03:14 PM
Yeah, but Tinsley isn't even in his proposed deal.

Basically we end up with Danny Granger and the expiring contract pu-pu platter as next year's roster.

What would happen in next year's draft or offseason would be a moot point because we'd be the Las Vegas Pacers.


I know Pacer fans don't see it this way, but Tinsley's value and Ford's value are very close.

Tins is owed for $22mm for three years and is ranked as the #50 PG on CBS Sportsline

Ford is owed $26mm for three years and is ranked as the #46 PG.

Trader Joe
06-26-2008, 03:15 PM
Well thank God CBS sportsline cleared that up.

Coop
06-26-2008, 03:19 PM
Well thank God CBS sportsline cleared that up.

:laugh:

I'm pretty sure every team in the league would take TJ over Jamaal at this point.

Justin Tyme
06-26-2008, 03:19 PM
I think they would gladly accept :

Dunleavy
Foster
#11

for Marion

You could get greedy and offer them:

Dunleavy
Ford
Foster
#11

for

Marion
Blount

and then around and trade with Cleveland

Marion
Tinsley

for

Wally
Damon Jones
Snow
#19

That would get you down to only owing Blount and Murphy past this next season.

You can still draft your two projects at 17 and 19 and choose to either move Granger or shawne or both next summer.

We could conceivably get the payroll to about $25mm for next season and down to Murphy's $11 mm for the following year.

I like the possibilities.


Gosh, I'm glad you aren't the Pacers GM! In 2 years, you have gotten rid of Dunleavy, Marion, Granger, and the 08 #11 leaving the Pacers with Murphy and what?



WOW JUST WOW!

Justin Tyme
06-26-2008, 03:27 PM
I guess Miami wants to get fleeced by us again. See Barac, Stanko.


That one just made my day... so far.

Justin Tyme
06-26-2008, 03:45 PM
I totally understand what you're saying about hitting rock bottom and rebuilding. This needs to happen and is happening. But you can't trade every player for cap space and expect the fans to keep supporting the team. The Simons would be saving millions in salary expense, but their revenue stream would dry up because there would only be 5,000 people at each game. And don't worry, we'll be seeing the bright lights of the NBA lottery again for the next few years.


Not to mention if the team gets all this money savings and looking good, what's to keep the Simons' from selling the Pacers to new owners like Clay Bennett who wants to move the team? Personally, the name Seattle Pacers or the Las Vegas Pacers just doesn't do anything for me.

Justin Tyme
06-26-2008, 03:58 PM
I'd give Miami almost anything they wanted if they'd take Tinsley and give back Marion. Foster? No problem. Dunleavy? Done. Young prospects? Sure. Draft picks? Assuming Bayless or Gordon don't slip, I'd give up the #11.

If they asked nicely, I'd even throw in Troy Murphy. :D

I understand your thinking on Tinsley for Marion, but Marion is like getting a 1 night stand. It doesn't make any difference how great of a time that night you showed her... she ain't comin back. Unless you can coax her back with some incentatives. In Marion's case a bank full of money. Didn't the Pacers just trade a player away who they owed a boat load of money to? Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire! I'm not sure you could sell Herb on doing that again.

Justin Tyme
06-26-2008, 04:07 PM
I agree.....I don't think that we can woo some Superstar to Indy....but I am of the opinion that we already have the player that we want to build around and all we need are some players that can come in and fix the problems that we have ( most notably interior and perimeter defenders ).

I think that with SalaryCap Flexibility....we can fix this team over the longhaul and be somewhat competitive...the problem is that it won't happen overnight...but over a period of 2-3 seasons. I have come to accept that our window for a Championship begins after the Celtics/Spurs/Pistons era is over....basically in 2-3 years. Over the next 2-3 seasons......we build not only team chemistry....but we build the team the way we want it build and refine it until we become a perennial Playoff team again ( which I think is Bird's next goal ).

We already started the rebuilding process yesterday.....we tore down a big remnant of the Brawl team. We now have a new core players to build around, we will continue to add players via draft and/or trade that fit our style and needs, continue to play the way that JO'B wants us to play for another season ( basically what we have done already after this JONeal trade and the eventual Tinsley buyout ) and then evaluate what we have at the end of the season....something that I think actually last season while JONeal was gone and Granger and Dunleavy were running the show.

After the 2008-2009 season is done...we evaluate again to see what else needs to be fixed and try to "patch up" the holes that we discover and go after that type of player in Free Agency or trade. The difference now is that with draft picks, Expiring Contracts that we have amassed....we can make some mid-season adjustments ( if needed ) then go through another "evaluation" period for another season. We can then go into the 2009 offseason with the ability to fix the holes that we discovered. Whereas before...we didn't have any flexiblility or ability to fix problems due to JONeal's contract and the many huge Contracts that we took on with the GSW trade.


Bingo we have a winner! Love your post.

Oneal07
06-26-2008, 04:11 PM
I honestly don't want to give up Dunleavy. Seriously don't

Plax80
06-26-2008, 05:11 PM
Gosh, I'm glad you aren't the Pacers GM! In 2 years, you have gotten rid of Dunleavy, Marion, Granger, and the 08 #11 leaving the Pacers with Murphy and what?



WOW JUST WOW!

I keep Granger and Shawne.

I have the two "studs" Larry and everyone is frothing over from tonight.......only I get the second one at 19 instead of 11.........that should make a world of difference.

I have a top 3 choice in 09.

Another in 10.

Another in 11.

I then get Greg Oden and Mike Conley to come back to Indy in FA to join our up and coming program.

I win 23 games; 17 games and 33 games the next three years instead of 35, 32 and 29.

our 08-09 roster actually looks okay on paper:

Blount and (Rasho)
Murphy and (Ike) and (Baston)
Granger and Shawne
(Wally), Daniels and (Rush)
(Snow), (Jones) and Diener

Throw in the two new superheroes and we could be legit. A couple of the expirings could even play well and be used in a deal for more picks in next years draft.

(......) Expirings = appx. $36mm

rexnom
06-26-2008, 05:21 PM
Wow.

LoneGranger33
06-26-2008, 05:24 PM
I think you should take a couple years off first Isiah.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 05:28 PM
I think you should take a couple years off first Isiah.


I'm the Anti-Isiah.

With me in charge we have about a $26 mm payroll for 09-10 and possibly even less in 10-11.

spazzxb
06-26-2008, 05:33 PM
I'm the Anti-Isiah.

With me in charge we have about a $26 mm payroll for 09-10 and possibly even less in 10-11.


dude, are you honestly on the level with this?

mrknowname
06-26-2008, 05:36 PM
I'm the Anti-Isiah.

With me in charge we have about a $26 mm payroll for 09-10 and possibly even less in 10-11.


with 5 wins and no fans in the seats

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 05:36 PM
I honestly don't want to give up Dunleavy. Seriously don't
I agree. It wouldn't be a smart idea to let go of this guy.

I would package up Foster, Williams and/or maybe Quis/Graham for for Marion. I wouldn't want to give up a lot since he has an expiring contract, but I think we can get him without parting with Dun Dun.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 05:55 PM
dude, are you honestly on the level with this?

It wasn't my first choice, but since you've give away one of our best assets for basically a shot in the dark project big...............why not completely blow it up .........go from 35 wins to 20 and start picking at the top of these drafts while saving the owner a fortune.

The Hawks did this a few years ago shedding Shareef, jason terry and others.

They then picked up:

07:

3. Al Horford
11. acie Law

06:
Free Agency: Joe Johnson
5. Shelden Williams (Centerpiece of Mike Bibby acquisition)

05:
2. marvin Williams (should have been Chris Paul or Deron Williams)

04:
6: Josh Childress
17: Josh Smith

I may have a year confused here or there but thats a complete transformation of a team going to nowhere to one that has a chance to very good for the next 5-7 years with none of their main pieces being much older than 24 or 25 except for Bibby; and with JSmooth and Marvin just being 20.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 05:57 PM
It wasn't my first choice, but since you've give away one of our best assets for basically a shot in the dark project big...............why not completely blow it up .........go from 35 wins to 20 and start picking at the top of these drafts while saving the owner a fortune.

The Hawks did this a few years ago shedding Shareef, jason terry and others.



But they barely made it into the playoffs, lost in the first round, and still had a losing record. I don't think they are as good as you think.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 06:01 PM
And again I'll ask the same question I've asked three or four other times without a single response........

Name one team besides the Knicks who would swap their entire roster and draft picks for our roster and draft picks ???

There isn't one.

So if you already have the 29th best roster out of 30 teams........why not start completely over ???

Of all the guys I traded, only Dunleavy and possibly Ford would still be here in three years anyway and they would have expiring deals in that year.

And I traded down from 11 to 19............is that really a big deal in this draft of guesses and reaches ???

I saved us $50mm in those three years and put ourselves in a much healthier position for an extended run in the next decade.

ThA HoyA
06-26-2008, 06:02 PM
Blount and (Rasho)
Murphy and (Ike) and (Baston)
Granger and Shawne
(Wally), Daniels and (Rush)
(Snow), (Jones) and Diener


:noooo::pullhair::suicide5::suicide3:

Plax80
06-26-2008, 06:08 PM
But they barely made it into the playoffs, lost in the first round, and still had a losing record. I don't think they are as good as you think.

They are all babies except for Bibby and they took the Celtics to a Game 7 in their first postseason trip in 10 years.

And if they would have been smart enough to draft paul instead of marvin than thye might already be in the conversation of possible Champs next year.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:13 PM
They are all babies except for Bibby and they took the Celtics to a Game 7 in their first postseason trip in 10 years.

And if they would have been smart enough to draft paul instead of marvin than thye might already be in the conversation of possible Champs next year.
The Celtics were all how would you say, trying to be too big for their shorts in the first couple of rounds. They thought they had it in the bag. (Obviously, they did.)They let that get the best of them, and really didn't play too hard against Atlanta and Cleveland.

For that I would say that this is either a one-and-done situation for ATL, or that they will be first round fodder for a couple more years to come.

Don't get me wrong, their players have a lot of potential and a great leader with Bibby, but I just don't see them being as tough as you say.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 06:14 PM
I understand your thinking on Tinsley for Marion, but Marion is like getting a 1 night stand.
And buying Tinsley out is like a shotgun wedding to your cousin.

I'll take the one-night stand. Fun while it lasts, and everybody goes their way with no hard feelings.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 06:22 PM
The Celtics were all how would you say, trying to be too big for their shorts in the first couple of rounds. They thought they had it in the bag. (Obviously, they did.)They let that get the best of them, and really didn't play too hard against Atlanta and Cleveland.

For that I would say that this is either a one-and-done situation for ATL, or that they will be first round fodder for a couple more years to come.

Don't get me wrong, their players have a lot of potential and a great leader with Bibby, but I just don't see them being as tough as you say.

I'm not tryingto turn this into a hawks site........

I just used them as an example of how to rebuild quickly.

They took a perennial 35 win team and dumped the best three or four players off of it for picks and money.

They then began to get high enough in the lottery to add significant pieces and not bit parts.

Had they taken Chris Paul.........they would be a monster team already and their main core is under 25.

I think you have to either go that route or the Boston route where you trade money and picks for expensive all stars.........which is the route Miami, Cleveland, and Toronto would all be going in these trades.

Toronto adds JO
Cleveland adds Marion
Miami adds Dunleavy, Ford, Foster, Beasley and whomever at 11. They are linked to Elton Brand now as well.

My guess is the Clips would go my route and send Marion packing as soon as they could to a team like Cleveland. The Clips might even like my Pacer deal since Dunleavy could play for his Dad in LA.

We would then move Marion for a package similiar to mine with Cleveland.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 06:24 PM
I'm not tryingto turn this into a hawks site........

I just used them as an example of how to rebuild quickly.
Are you kidding me?

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:26 PM
Toronto adds JO
Cleveland adds Marion
Miami adds Dunleavy, Ford, Foster, Beasley and whomever at 11. They are linked to Elton Brand now as well.

My guess is the Clips would go my route and send Marion packing as soon as they could to a team like Cleveland. The Clips might even like my Pacer deal since Dunleavy could play for his Dad in LA.

We would then move Marion for a package similiar to mine with Cleveland.
We are not getting rid of Mike (or Danny). No way no how. Larry already made that clear.

Getting rid of Mike, who seems to have come out of his shell would not be worth giving up for someone with a soon to be expiring contract. Marion would bolt because he isn't playing where he would want to or some other reason. He is used to being on good teams. Teams that have had a shot of making it all the way. Just like in Miami he will get "injured" again and where will we be then?

croz24
06-26-2008, 06:29 PM
I'm the Anti-Isiah.

With me in charge we have about a $26 mm payroll for 09-10 and possibly even less in 10-11.

and become the kansas city royals of the nba...yay!

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:29 PM
Are you kidding me?
Exactly. The Hawks have been trying to rebuild since 1994. Way to get on that.

croz24
06-26-2008, 06:32 PM
Exactly. The Hawks have been trying to rebuild since 1994. Way to get on that.

to be fair, the hawks were pretty damn solid in the late 90s.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 06:32 PM
We are not getting rid of Mike (or Danny).
In the other thread it was published that Bird has, in fact, been gauging interest in Dunleavy.

Granger is untouchable, though.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:36 PM
Solid, maybe. Good, maybe.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:38 PM
In the other thread it was published that Bird has, in fact, been gauging interest in Dunleavy.

Granger is untouchable, though.
Well, I'm sure he is gauging interest in almost anyone, but I really don't think he wants to actually let go of either of them.

Young
06-26-2008, 06:41 PM
I like Marion. I think it would be great if we could get him on the court.

Say we send out Dunleavy, and something with Foster/Tinsley/Daniels. Draft Brandon Rush. That gives us a nice lineup of Ford/Rush/Granger/Marion/?

However off the court is what worries me. Not what Shawn does but i'm talking about business, his contract. He is expiring. I do not want to trade for cap space atleast not if we are giving up good players such as Mike Dunleavy. And even if we did trade for Marion and re-signed him at what price? The money we gave Jermaine? No thanks.

I just don't think that Marion would be a good fit from the business side of things. Great fit on the court though.

Anthem
06-26-2008, 06:45 PM
Well, I'm sure he is gauging interest in almost anyone, but I really don't think he wants to actually let go of either of them.
Read UB's link in the other thread.


O'Neal may just be the first domino to fall in Indiana. Sources say Indiana was willing to trade everyone but small forward Danny Granger at the deadline. "They made it clear they were willing to blow it up," a Western Conference executive said. Contrary to reports, front-office sources say the Pacers have been shopping forward Mike Dunleavy -- who is owed $29.3 million over the next three seasons -- while showing some reluctance to part with center Jeff Foster, who is considered a favorite of coach JimO'Brien.

Cactus Jax
06-26-2008, 06:46 PM
The expiring contract is what makes Marion so appealing. Dunleavy had a pretty good season last year, but hes still sitting on a horrible contract.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 06:46 PM
The hawks blew it up in 2004. Their success from 99-04 is very similiar to our the last four years.

They traded Abdur-Rahim for rashweed and then immediately shipped him to detriot for expirings and a couple of picks one of whom turned into Josh Smith.

They traded jason terry to Dallas that same summer. They also moved SJax, Al, Antoine Walker and Gary payton in various deals during that same time all with the idea of getting bad enough to get good again.

So four summers later they now have :

Horford and Zaza (he isn't bad at all)
Smith (21 yrs old and becoming a beast)
Marvin Williams (21 yrs old and potential beast)
Joe Johnson (already one of the leagues 15 best players)
Mike Bibby

Acie Law
Josh Childress

They will cost $51mm for next season and they have only $20mm locked up for the following year............

Which of the two franchises seems healthier to you ??

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:50 PM
Read UB's link in the other thread.
I understand that, but I really hate the term, "sources". Most of the time they never reveal themselves. I'm sure they have an excellent reason, but to me that is speculation.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 06:50 PM
And if they had been smart enough to draft Chris paul instead of Marvin williams a couple of years ago........and then did the Bibby trade with New Jersey for RJ instead.........they would probably be celebrating a title right now.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:51 PM
The hawks blew it up in 2004. Their success from 99-04 is very similiar to our the last four years.

They traded Abdur-Rahim for rashweed and then immediately shipped him to detriot for expirings and a couple of picks one of whom turned into Josh Smith.

They traded jason terry to Dallas that same summer. They also moved SJax, Al, Antoine Walker and Gary payton in various deals during that same time all with the idea of getting bad enough to get good again.

So four summers later they now have :

Horford and Zaza (he isn't bad at all)
Smith (21 yrs old and becoming a beast)
Marvin Williams (21 yrs old and potential beast)
Joe Johnson (already one of the leagues 15 best players)
Mike Bibby

Acie Law
Josh Childress

They will cost $51mm for next season and they have only $20mm locked up for the following year............

Which of the two franchises seems healthier to you ??
The Hawks blow it up almost every year.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 06:51 PM
And if they had been smart enough to draft Chris paul instead of Marvin williams a couple of years ago........and then did the Bibby trade with New Jersey for RJ instead.........they would probably be celebrating a title right now.



If.

McKeyFan
06-26-2008, 06:53 PM
Hard for me to get interested. Never been a big fan of Marion.

Plax80
06-26-2008, 07:00 PM
If.

or we could follow your advice and continue to trad efor middling players with multiple years left on inflated deals , win enough games in April to move down to 11th in the lottery and reach on a 6-10 195 lb project from LSU who possibly could win an NBA version of the high jump at the all star weekend but who unfortunately is never and likely will never be a very good basketball player.

Isn't darvin ham a FA ..........why not just sign him and draft someone who could actually play at some point at #11.

duke dynamite
06-26-2008, 07:03 PM
or we could follow your advice and continue to trad efor middling players with multiple years left on inflated deals , win enough games in April to move down to 11th in the lottery and reach on a 6-10 195 lb project from LSU who possibly could win an NBA version of the high jump at the all star weekend but who unfortunately is never and likely will never be a very good basketball player.

Isn't darvin ham a FA ..........why not just sign him and draft someone who could actually play at some point at #11.
After the year that Mike had, I am not sold on that arguement.

Shh, shh...it's starting!

BoomBaby31
06-26-2008, 07:12 PM
I like Marion but I don't know about Granger and Marion on the same team. Marion doesn't look appealing at a full time 4 sport. Basketball is shifting back rapidly to big men basketball (thank goodness).

count55
06-26-2008, 07:27 PM
I like Marion but I don't know about Granger and Marion on the same team. Marion doesn't look appealing at a full time 4 sport. Basketball is shifting back rapidly to big men basketball (thank goodness).

Based on the dominant centers that played in the Finals?

Plax80
06-26-2008, 09:33 PM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I knew when portland took Rush that it was for us.

Brandon Rush ..........just what we need another wing who can't create but shoots fairly well when left wide open on the perimeter.

Maybe in a few years he will even be as good as his brother.

I like jack almost as much as Ford but why do we need both of them.

Oh, I know..........we needed to get above the $20mm mark in middling PG annual committments.

I'm okay with Hibbert............maybe he has some Chief in him.........but you have to wonder at this point if he is even better than David Harrison ??

I like Dunleavy too, but its time to tear the whole thing apart and start over.........what an awful two days of transactions.

DisapointedPacerFan
06-27-2008, 12:32 AM
Wow, try to put a package together not including Granger and/or Dunleavy (who Bird called too valuable to be traded) for Marion. That will be a fun time. No way we land him.