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ABADays
06-25-2008, 10:04 PM
Since they both make about the same amount of money, who would you pick as the definition of a Franchise Player and why.

Jermaine O'Neal

Peyton Manning

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:05 PM
This is an unfair poll to say the least.

Obviously Manning.

Gyron
06-25-2008, 10:05 PM
Peyton

mrknowname
06-25-2008, 10:06 PM
manning - healthy, consistent, stronger worth ethic, and a champion

LoneGranger33
06-25-2008, 10:07 PM
QB is much more prominent position.

Shade
06-25-2008, 10:09 PM
This is going to be the most lopsided poll in the history of planet Earth.

You may as well ask everyone what they like to eat more: chocolate ice cream, or poop.

:-p

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:10 PM
Give me the poop.

idioteque
06-25-2008, 10:11 PM
I won't vote in this poll because it's obvious who will win by a landslide and I don't like the idea of JO bashing right after we traded him.

JO just happens to be a guy who was given franchise money but really only had #2 option talent, and heck he may have blossomed into more if it wasn't for the injuries. You know what, this poll is borderline offensive to me since JO did at least try to be a franchise player for the Pacers and did his damndest to get Reggie a title, so I am voting for him out of spite.

count55
06-25-2008, 10:11 PM
This is disappointing. I was hoping this would be a discussion about what makes a franchise player. It would be an interesting one, given the draft. How many hope that foundation player can be found with a high pick.

Who in the NBA has been a francise player over the last three decades?

Does a great player who leads his team to success, but no title (like Reggie, Patrick, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley) qualify as a franchise player, or is a title a prerequisite.

Are there all time greats who weren't franchise players? Julius Erving...Scottie Pippen?

What are the core traits of a franchise player?

What do they all have in common?

What are stars who fall short lacking?

Wow...that could've been a great conversation.

Instead, it's a "let's jab JO in the eye one last time for old time's sake."

What a shame.

Shade
06-25-2008, 10:13 PM
I personally believe that, by default, a franchise player is simply the franchise's MVP.

JO was our franchise player. Now Danny likely is.

ajbry
06-25-2008, 10:13 PM
This is going to be the most lopsided poll in the history of planet Earth.

You may as well ask everyone what they like to eat more: chocolate ice cream, or poop.

:-p

Way to insult PD's dung beetle representation...

And I find this topic to be pretty rude.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:14 PM
Oh and up until February 2007 there wasn't much of a difference between JO and Peyton Manning. If the brawl doesn't happen and that Pacers team wins a title this is a totally different conversation.

Blaming JO for the Pacers problems is a short sighted view of everything that occurred here since November 2004. He wouldn't even be in the top 5 reasons the Pacers are where they are.

Putnam
06-25-2008, 10:14 PM
I don't mind the question, but I don't believe in the concept of a franchise player in a team sport.

Manning couldn't win a title by himself -- probably couldn't win without Jeff Saturday and certainly couldn't win without Tom Moore.

ABADays
06-25-2008, 10:15 PM
This is going to be the most lopsided poll in the history of planet Earth.

That's kind of my point. I will always consider Manning a franchise player and never begrudge him being paid like one. I never thought of JO as one and thought it was a joke he was paid Manning money. JO - good guy, good player . . . but not a franchise player.

And for those offended, this isn't to bash JO. It's merely to illustrate what I think a true franchise player is.

idioteque
06-25-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't believe in the concept of a franchise player in a team sport. Manning couldn't win by himself -- probably couldn't win without Jeff Saturday and certainly couldn't win without Tom Moore.

True but I doubt those guys could win with Jim Sorgi...which makes Peyton "the franchise" I guess since he makes or breaks the supporting cast. Could they win with all those guys and then a mediocre QB? Hard telling.

BlueNGold
06-25-2008, 10:16 PM
Peyton Manning on the basis of talent, competitiveness and leadership. To a lesser extent, communication skills and community service. JO scores well on a number of those things, but I think Manning tops JO in most of them, particularly leadership where it's not close.

Manning has arguably been the most talented player in the NFL during some stretches. He's also led the team to a super bowl victory. He's also achieved greatness for an extended period of time while JO has been injured half his career. Part of being a great player is being durable. JO has failed there notwithstanding it's not his fault.

Also, while JO may or may not have as much money, he invested in a bar while Manning donated to a children's hospital. I'm sure there are other examples to the contrary, but those do stand out here in Indy.

idioteque
06-25-2008, 10:17 PM
That's kind of my point. I will always consider Manning a franchise player and never begrudge him being paid like one. I never thought of JO as one and thought it was a joke he was paid Manning money. JO - good guy, good player . . . but not a franchise player.

Well, if you want to get into that, you should be asking who is the better GM, Polian or Walsh. I'd have a hard time turning down JO's salary if the Pacers offered it to me.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:18 PM
That's kind of my point. I will always consider Manning a franchise player and never begrudge him being paid like one. I never thought of JO as one and thought it was a joke he was paid Manning money. JO - good guy, good player . . . but not a franchise player.

I don't know, you give JO a basketball equivalent of Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday, and I think he might look a wee bit more like a franchise player.

Manning isn't a franchise player without those guys. Period. He just isn't. He's a Drew Brees or Carson Palmer without those guys surrounding him.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:20 PM
Peyton Manning on the basis of talent, competitiveness and leadership. To a lesser extent, communication skills and community service. JO scores well on a number of those things, but I think Manning tops JO in most of them, particularly leadership where it's not close.

Manning has arguably been the most talented player in the NFL during some stretches. He's also led the team to a super bowl victory. He's also achieved greatness for an extended period of time while JO has been injured half his career. Part of being a great player is being durable. JO has failed there notwithstanding it's not his fault.

Also, while JO may or may not have as much money, he invested in a bar while Manning donated to a children's hospital. I'm sure there are other examples to the contrary, but those do stand out here in Indy.

Peyton Manning is widely regarded as an a-hole, whenever he's out in public. He's not very approachable at all. JO stomps him in that category.

idioteque
06-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Peyton Manning is widely regarded as an a-hole, whenever he's out in public. He's not very approachable at all. JO stomps him in that category.

Seriously? I've never heard that before, but then again I've never heard of a fan encounter with Manning.

BlueNGold
06-25-2008, 10:21 PM
I don't know, you give JO a basketball equivalent of Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday, and I think he might look a wee bit more like a franchise player.

Manning isn't a franchise player without those guys. Period. He just isn't. He's a Drew Brees or Carson Palmer without those guys surrounding him.

He had Reggie Miller, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and several other good players. Talent was NEVER the problem with that team.

I do suppose those players were not the equivalent, however...

BlueNGold
06-25-2008, 10:23 PM
Peyton Manning is widely regarded as an a-hole, whenever he's out in public. He's not very approachable at all. JO stomps him in that category.

Even with this *very* questionable assumption, it's still not close.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:24 PM
He had Reggie Miller, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and several other good players. Talent was NEVER the problem with that team.

I do suppose those players were not the equivalent, however...

Marvin Harrison is a top 5 wider receiver of all time. Addai and James were both top 5 backs in the league while with Manning. Wayne is a top 10 wideout in the league and arguable top 5 now. Glenn and Saturday were two of the best offensive linemen in the league, and one of them will almost certainly make their way to Canton.

JO played with one future hall of famer, Reggie, and that was when Reggie was in his twilight.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:25 PM
Even with this *very* questionable assumption, it's still not close.

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Peyton's a great player. I just don't think he's that approachable, and I know many other people who think the same thing.

Shade
06-25-2008, 10:25 PM
He had Reggie Miller, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and several other good players. Talent was NEVER the problem with that team.

I do suppose those players were not the equivalent, however...

And they were the second-best team in the league in 2004 (and arguably the best before the Sheed trade).

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:26 PM
I really don't want to turn this into a debate either, I already said Peyton was more of a franchise player.

DisplacedKnick
06-25-2008, 10:27 PM
A franchise player is the guy who, when you look at your team, you build the rest of the team around him in order to take advantage of what he gives you.

Oh - and it has to work. There've been plenty of teams that tried and found out the player wasn't good enough.

Frex, the Pacers tried to build their team as if JO was their franchise player but he just never got to that level - not for very long anyway.

Malone was. Ewing's borderline, probably a yes - I guess we had enough success with that team that was built around him. Allan Houston's a great contrast - we paid him franchise player money and tried to build the team like he was one and he never came close (he did try though). Iverson's a tweener - Philly treated him like one but again, it only worked for them for one season so I'd say he's a no.

Reggie would be a yes - he was good enough, but I never got the sense that DW considered him and made moves with that in mind. Of course DW's sneaky that way.

Manning's an obvious yes.

I'm not voting. No point.

Shade
06-25-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm not the only one who thinks this. Peyton's a great player. I just don't think he's that approachable, and I know many other people who think the same thing.

I have also heard this from a couple people who work close to him. And the one time I was in his presence I have to agree that he seems like a pretty unapproachable guy. It just seems like he considers dealing with the public at all a chore.

DisplacedKnick
06-25-2008, 10:28 PM
Seriously? I've never heard that before, but then again I've never heard of a fan encounter with Manning.

I know a Colts fan - season tix - who's met Peyton and said he was warm, friendly and engaging.

His wife cracked us up - her words, "He was so down to earth. And strong, and solid - and just - solid."

BlueNGold
06-25-2008, 10:28 PM
Marvin Harrison is a top 5 wider receiver of all time. Addai and James were both top 5 backs in the league while with Manning. Wayne is a top 10 wideout in the league and arguable top 5 now. Glenn and Saturday were two of the best offensive linemen in the league, and one of them will almost certainly make their way to Canton.

JO played with one future hall of famer, Reggie, and that was when Reggie was in his twilight.

...and Manning is arguably the best quarterback ever.

BTW, it could be that his supporting cast helps him, but it could be the other way around. In any event, JO has never even been to the big dance let alone win it. Until he does anything in the post season, he's a nothing.

Rajah Brown
06-25-2008, 10:29 PM
Indy-

It's non-germane to the thread. But there is NO WAY whatsoever
that either Glenn or Saturday will ever come close to being
inducted into the HOF in Canton.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:29 PM
You're gonna have a tough time selling me on Peyton being the best quarterback ever. Right now hes not even the best QB of this generation, but this is the Pacers board.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:30 PM
Indy-

It's non-germane to the thread. But there is NO WAY whatsoever
that either Glenn or Saturday will ever come close to being
inducted into the HOF in Canton.

I'd make a bet on it, but we're too far out to know, but I'll respectfully disagree.

Arcadian
06-25-2008, 10:42 PM
It is lame kicking players on the way out.

Rajah Brown
06-25-2008, 10:56 PM
$20. Unless I get hit by a bus, I'll still be around the PD realm.

For the record, I really like both Glenn and Saturday. But while
T-Bone was underated his whole career, there are alot of L-OT's
who'll be ahead of him in the line. As for Saturday, if he was to
play another few years and make a few more Pro Bowls (it
shouldn't matter, but it does), since he's at a position that
has fewer guys at the level of HOF consideration and he carries
such a heavy burden calling signals in the Colts offense, he might
have a slim, outside shot.

Trader Joe
06-25-2008, 10:57 PM
I'll take that bet.

ABADays
06-25-2008, 11:02 PM
As much as I love Saturday he is a looooooooooong shot. They rarely, rarely take centers. Ring of Honor, yes. Glenn has an outside shot for the HOF.

ChicagoJ
06-25-2008, 11:02 PM
Terry Bradshaw?

Joe Montana?

Michael Jordan?

Kareem?

Those might be the only franchise players I've ever seen.

Most over-used word in sports.

Bball
06-25-2008, 11:20 PM
Would Marvin Harrison be Marvin Harrison if he didn't have Peyton Manning lining up under center for much of his career? Would Joseph Addai be Joseph Addai if Jim Sorgi was handing him the ball?

As good as these players are, Manning makes them better... But then that still requires people all fill their roles so Manning can do what he does as well.

JO has never made anyone better and in fact required those around him to sacrifice their own games just so he could sniff something close to 20-10 while shooting a horrid FG% for a PF that was the centerpiece of our offense.

-Bball