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Vince Neil
06-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Here is the big news as of Wednesday evening. Once you're done reading, you can catch up on the reactions starting from when this updated story broke on page 15:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=39769&page=15

Here's the news:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AqGHX8lwUA8vR6fS3QwAhWG8vLYF?slug=aw-jermaineonealtraded062508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports

Yahoo! Sports

NEW YORK – After on-and-off again negotiations, the Indiana Pacers have agreed in principle to send six-time All-Star Jermaine O’Neal to the Toronto Raptors for point guard T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday’s NBA draft, a league executive said Wednesday.

After nearly completing the deal earlier in the week, Pacers and Raptors officials needed to exchange more medical information on O’Neal’s left knee and Ford’s neck before finding a comfort level with the trade. It is believed both sides now are comfortable making the deal, though the trade won’t be complete until both O’Neal and Ford pass their physicals.

Toronto also will send Rasho Nesterovic and another role player to match up with O’Neal’s salary. O’Neal is owed $44 million over the next two seasons. He played just 42 games for Indiana a year ago with a left knee injury. O’Neal has expressed a desire to leave the Pacers for a contender.

Ford, who has a history of neck injuries, became expendable when Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo decided that he wanted to make Jose Calderon the franchise’s future at point guard.

Ford was diagnosed with spinal stenosis, a condition that narrows the openings the spinal cord runs through. He missed the 2004-05 season with the Bucks following neck surgery, and missed 13 games with a neck injury last season after Atlanta’s Al Horford leveled him on a breakaway layup. Ford has $25 million and two years left on his contract. Indiana had been searching for a point guard and Ford takes the job now.

Calderon is a restricted free agent, and Colangelo has insisted that he’ll match any offer for him. Clearly, the Raptors will belong to him now.

The Pacers would now hold the 11th and 17th picks in the draft.


================================================== ======

Pacers, Toronto talk about trading O'Neal
By Mike Wells
Posted: June 23, 2008- The Indiana Pacers and Jermaine O'Neal could be parting ways in the near future.

The Pacers and Toronto Raptors have discussed a possible deal with O'Neal going north of the border with point guard T.J. Ford and center Rasho Nesterovic coming to Indiana, according to two people with knowledge of the situation. The deal may also include Toronto's first-round pick (No. 17) in Thursday's draft.


The Raptors will have to throw in at least one other player to make the deal work financially.

An issue that could hold up the deal is O'Neal's left knee. O'Neal, who has dealt with injuries the past four seasons, played just 42 games last season. Pacers officials, however, recently said O'Neal's knee is healthy. The six-time All-Star is spending the summer working out in Las Vegas.

Call Star reporter Mike Wells at (317) 444-6053.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080623/SPORTS04/806230395

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 10:28 AM
Please let it be true and let it actually happen.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm all for trading JO and I like getting the 17th pick. But I have no interest in Rasho and only have mild interest in Ford. You cannot win a championship or get close with Ford as your starting point guard (although he probably fits pretty well into O'Brien's offensive system). And if we draft Augustin, they we have 3 very small point guards. Diener, Ford and Augustin

Rasho is in the last year of his contract. 8.4m
Ford has three years left. 8.0 - 8.5 - 8.5.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do this trade, but I'm not too excited about it. Probably the most we could get for JO though. I do question why the Raptors do this trade. I know they really, really, really want some help for Bosh inside (the Magic dominated them in the playoffs inside) so I guess that is what they are looking for.

Interesting that Wells just updated this (it wasn't in the print addition) so he must think it is something that needs to be up on the website fast. That means to me it carries a little more weight

GenlHooker
06-23-2008, 10:31 AM
Could we have Christmas in June. To get rid of JO I would do almost anything

Evan_The_Dude
06-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Makes sense. They'd have to worry about J.O.'s knee, and we'd have to worry about Ford's back. I think it's a good deal. But man, if J.O. plays at least 70 games next to Chris Bosh...

Mourning
06-23-2008, 10:37 AM
This is a deal I could definitely live with. Rasho comes off the books soon, so we have some money to resign our own players. Ford though risky is IMO a better risk then taking on Livingston, even though his salary is also much bigger. Still I can see him beying pretty decent and you don't have perfect trades in this sort of thing. Best offer IF true and depending on the player that makes it work financially (both in quality and length of contract).

Pretty decent midrange pick aswell.

I could definitely live with this trade.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 10:37 AM
I saw yesterday on ESPN that Phoenix was considering Diaw for TJ Ford. So if JO has Boris Diaw type value, well, yeah I don't think there is really anything else you can say.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 10:38 AM
I'm all for trading JO and I like getting the 17th pick. But I have no interest in Rasho and only have mild interest in Ford. You cannot win a championship or get close with Ford as your starting point guard. And if we draft Augustin, they we have 3 very small point guards. Diener, Ford and Augustin

Rasho is in the last year of his contract. 8.4m
Ford has three years left. 8.0 - 8.5 - 8.5.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do this trade, but I'm not too excited about it. Probably the most we could get for JO though. I do question why the Raptors do this trade. I know they really, really, really want some help for Bosh inside (the Magic dominated them in the playoffs inside) so I guess that is what they are looking for.

Interesting that Wells just updated this (it wasn't in the print addition) so he must think it is something that needs to be up on the website fast. That means to me it carries a little more weight

The Celtics won a title with Rondo at point, so I wouldn't say never. Ford is solid.

Mr. Sobchak
06-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Makes sense. They'd have to worry about J.O.'s knee, and we'd have to worry about Ford's back. I think it's a good deal. But man, if J.O. plays at least 70 games next to Chris Bosh...


If im thinking correctly here- if Ford's career is ended because of his spinal stenosis, his salary comes off of our books through a league insurance policy. I think it would make sense for both teams.

Phildog
06-23-2008, 10:39 AM
But man, if J.O. plays at least 70 games next to Chris Bosh...

....Then hell freezes over?
....pigs fly?
.....frogs rain down?

Mourning
06-23-2008, 10:39 AM
I saw yesterday on ESPN that Phoenix was considering Diaw for TJ Ford. So if JO has Boris Diaw type value, well, yeah I don't think there is really anything else you can say.

I think it was the other way around. Toronto considering Diaw for Ford and Phoenix not beying enthousiastic about it. Could be wrong offcourse though.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Wait, we can't trade JO til after a certain date anyway right? So I think these rumors with picks involved are probably a whole lotta crap.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 10:41 AM
I think it was the other way around. Toronto considering Diaw for Ford and Phoenix not beying enthousiastic about it. Could be wrong offcourse though.

Either way, JO has similar value to Boris "I eat croissants all offseason" Diaw.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 10:41 AM
Eh.. An interesting deal, I guess. Sure doesn't thrill me, but I wouldn't PFFL either. Not sure I wouldn't rather just wait JO out.

EDIT: Although I'm looking at salaries for Toronto and Parker would finish the trade nicely. Jermaine for Parker/Rasho/Chalmers? We could do worse.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 10:42 AM
Wait, we can't trade JO til after a certain date anyway right?
Wrong.

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 10:42 AM
Were this still the DW/Bunny era I'd say this was the formal "hint" to expect the announcement at any time. But in the new era, I'm not so certain...but I'm guessing it is soon to happen officially.

sweabs
06-23-2008, 10:43 AM
Hah.

I'd like this trade if for no other reason it gets my Dad very upset. I have to hear him joke about JO's injury problems, inconsistency, and albatross contract on a daily basis. He would absolutely go on suicide watch if JO was in a Raptors uniform. I don't see JO fitting in well with the Raptors offense.

idioteque
06-23-2008, 10:43 AM
God, what a terrible trade. Honestly, if that's all that's getting offered up for JO, I'll take my chances on him this year. T.J. Ford is not a long term answer at PG and while Rasho is a nice expiring, I'd want at least one more actual talented player in that deal.

I'm liking Z/Varejao/19 much more than Rasho/Ford/17.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 10:43 AM
The Celtics won a title with Rondo at point, so I wouldn't say never. Ford is solid.

That is a good point. But we don't have any players as good as any of the Celtics big three. (I would rather have Rondo over Ford anyways) Ford is a defensive liability, although he isn't terrible defensively (better than Deener and Tinsley) I guess, he can push the ball, for sure and he can create for teammates, can get into the lane.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 10:46 AM
God, what a terrible trade. Honestly, if that's all that's getting offered up for JO, I'll take my chances on him this year. T.J. Ford is not a long term answer at PG and while Rasho is a nice expiring, I'd want at least one more actual talented player in that deal.



I agree although the trade isn't terrible. Depends who they can get at 17. The trade might depend on who is still available at 17

idioteque
06-23-2008, 10:46 AM
The Celtics won a title with Rondo at point, so I wouldn't say never. Ford is solid.

I like Ford's talent but that degenerative spine condition he has makes it seem that he won't last more than five more injury riddled seasons in the league. It's really unfortunate for TJ, too, he's a good player, but I don't want another injury prone guy on the team.

idioteque
06-23-2008, 10:48 AM
I agree although the trade isn't terrible. Depends who they can get at 17. The trade might depend on who is still available at 17

That would be the only saving grace for me. If we end up with Ford/Chalmers/Rasho/Speights as a result of the trade and the draft I don't think that would be too disappointing.

Any trade rumor like this just makes me validate myself that the Pacers won't draft D.J. Augustin.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 10:49 AM
This would be GREAT! I love TJ Ford's game. And Rasho is a legit 7 footer that would be a nice complement to Foster. I just don't know why Toronto would do this deal. If JO is healthy, he would be a great defensive complement to Bosh. (BIG IF) He wouldn't have to score 20+ points a game, he could focus on defense and rbs.

The Pacers could end up with Ford, Rasho, player TBD, #17?

And all they have to give is JO? Sounds great and too good to be true.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm all for trading JO and I like getting the 17th pick. But I have no interest in Rasho and only have mild interest in Ford. You cannot win a championship or get close with Ford as your starting point guard (although he probably fits pretty well into O'Brien's offensive system). And if we draft Augustin, they we have 3 very small point guards. Diener, Ford and Augustin

Rasho is in the last year of his contract. 8.4m
Ford has three years left. 8.0 - 8.5 - 8.5.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do this trade, but I'm not too excited about it. Probably the most we could get for JO though. I do question why the Raptors do this trade. I know they really, really, really want some help for Bosh inside (the Magic dominated them in the playoffs inside) so I guess that is what they are looking for.

Interesting that Wells just updated this (it wasn't in the print addition) so he must think it is something that needs to be up on the website fast. That means to me it carries a little more weight

1. This should be one more reason NOT to draft Augustin, because as you say it would mean having three small, but OTOH also very very fast (probably the fastest in the league) PG's, who could get physically abused during the playoffs. I don't see that happenning, but stranger things have occured. Likelier seems we draft two bigs (unless Gordon is around our pick) or shop a collection of first and second round picks to move up or down, loads of sudden flexibility there.

2. I don't see our team as a championship contender in the next three years unless we draft a superstar this year or next year (and then still have a hard time believing it), so I'm not too worried about having Ford as a PG in the meantime.

3. I think Toronto does it because of the inside prescence JO brings and if he doesn't work out too well he will come of there salarybalance fairly quickly or hope on resigning him for peanuts if it does work. They solve their problem of finding suitors for both Rasho and Ford.

4. I hope the added guy won't be Jason Kapono (though JOB probably loves him and his shooting). Praying that that won't work salary wise...

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
06-23-2008, 10:52 AM
This is a deal I could definitely live with. Rasho comes off the books soon, so we have some money to resign our own players. Ford though risky is IMO a better risk then taking on Livingston, even though his salary is also much bigger. Still I can see him beying pretty decent and you don't have perfect trades in this sort of thing. Best offer IF true and depending on the player that makes it work financially (both in quality and length of contract).

Pretty decent midrange pick aswell.

I could definitely live with this trade.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

I agree.

Is this the first time Mike Wells has reported a possible trade like this? I don't remember the last time he did. Hopefully that means it's more likely.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 10:52 AM
Hah.

I'd like this trade if for no other reason it gets my Dad very upset. I have to hear him joke about JO's injury problems, inconsistency, and albatross contract on a daily basis. He would absolutely go on suicide watch if JO was in a Raptors uniform.

Ohh man, you are E-V-I-L ! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

DisplacedKnick
06-23-2008, 10:53 AM
The Celtics won a title with Rondo at point, so I wouldn't say never. Ford is solid.

I was gonna say the same thing but substitute Avery Johnson & the Spurs.

Hicks
06-23-2008, 10:55 AM
Wait, we can't trade JO til after a certain date anyway right? So I think these rumors with picks involved are probably a whole lotta crap.

These trades can happen and be reported on draft night, but just not officially happen until July. I think it would be where it's "done", ESPN would report it as "done", but the NBA might not announce it at the podium because it's not official.

Or..... JO may have already signed off on not opting out, and once that happens I think he can be traded early. Maybe.

Bball
06-23-2008, 10:56 AM
With JO's knee now fully healed and his warrior determination to help lead a team to a championship, Toronto would be an excellent destination for him. With a Bosh and JO frontline Toronto would have a formidable 1-2 punch to get them to the ECF's and an excellent shot of getting past Boston.

Toronto would be foolish not to do this deal.

:signit:

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 10:56 AM
I agree.

Is this the first time Mike Wells has reported a possible trade like this? I don't remember the last time he did. Hopefully that means it's more likely.

I don't remember him reporting something like this - although he might have right before one of the trades actually did take place. So I trust Wells that there are advanced discussions of this trade. But I would guess it won't be made until the draft takes place, as the pacers might back out if the player they want is gone at 17. Although I suppose they could do the trade and just take their chances.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 10:58 AM
With JO's knee now fully healed and his warrior determination to help lead a team to a championship, Toronto would be an excellent destination for him. With a Bosh and JO frontline Toronto would have a formidable 1-2 punch to get them to the ECF's and an excellent shot of getting past Boston.

Toronto would be foolish not to do this deal.

:signit:

:spitout: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Haha, Bball, you damn sarcast!!! :sarcasm:

idioteque
06-23-2008, 10:58 AM
Guys if this deal goes down I think you're going to be disappointed in the amount of games TJ is actually able to play for us with his injury.

ESutt7
06-23-2008, 10:59 AM
Eh.. An interesting deal, I guess. Sure doesn't thrill me, but I wouldn't PFFL either. Not sure I wouldn't rather just wait JO out.

EDIT: Although I'm looking at salaries for Toronto and Parker would finish the trade nicely. Jermaine for Parker/Rasho/Chalmers? We could do worse.

Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 10:59 AM
After reconsidering its tough to see the Pacers winning in the playoffs with Ford at the point simply because its tough to see Ford sustaining some of the hits dished out in the playoffs this year and continuing to get back up. So I suppose Buck's comment holds some weight. We could do a lot worse than this deal though and I like it more than the Cavs deal.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:00 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....

Hehe, I would like that, but, that's not going to happen :).

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 11:00 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....

I know the Raptors aren't thrilled with him, but there is no way they will include him in this trade.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 11:01 AM
With JO's knee now fully healed and his warrior determination to help lead a team to a championship, Toronto would be an excellent destination for him. With a Bosh and JO frontline Toronto would have a formidable 1-2 punch to get them to the ECF's and an excellent shot of getting past Boston.

Toronto would be foolish not to do this deal.

:signit:

Well then maybe we should trade him to Cleveland for Lebron James

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:01 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....
I'd take Bargnani. He's nothing special, but he's definetly a valuable piece you could possibly flip onto another team. Although I doubt, Toronto would part with him in this deal. It would leave their bench kind of thin.

idioteque
06-23-2008, 11:03 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....

I don't think the Raps would cough him up so easily. Sure, he's been somewhat disappointing, but he's had some good games as well and will probably be too solid of a player in this league to ever be considered "filler" until he gets old and starts to decline. He could be a valuable option if he ever gains consistency. I see him as a Lamar Odom type talent and while that's not what you expect of a #1 pick it's not chopped liver that you send away either.

Hicks
06-23-2008, 11:05 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....

I don't think they're going to give up on him this soon.

purdue101
06-23-2008, 11:06 AM
I'm not a huge fan of this deal, but not completely against it either. I guess I am just optimistic that JO will return to his old form......wishful thinking I know.

I would do the deal if it was expanded to include one of the following.

1.) Toronto takes Tinsley and we get back an expiring like Garbajosa.
2.) We throw in Shawne and fluff (2nd rounder, cash, etc.) and they toss in Bargnani.
3.) A future 1st is included.

count55
06-23-2008, 11:06 AM
So, theoretically, it's:

TJ Ford (3yrs 24.8mm)
Rasho Nesterovic (1 yr, 8.4mm)
#17 (Hopefully)

for

JO (2yrs, 44.4mm)

The Raps would have to add about $0.5mm in salaries to make the deal work, and the only guy they have like that is Jamario Moon, but I'm unsure as to how they'd feel about him as a throw in. They could also throw in the $1.9mm contract of Maceo Baston.

Another option is to agree to the deal, but consummate it after the draft. That way, the contract of the #17 pick (probably about $1.5mm, first year) could be used to match the salaries.

I know Ford is a risk, but I like this deal if the #17 is included. It gives us relatively young point guard (albeit with injury issues), but he has played over 70 games in the two years prior to this.

Nesterovic is a nice size expiring, plus a serviceable big man that can play a little defense.

A second 1st round draft pick in the area where there are a lot of players that we like.

It also could get us under the luxury tax next year and clear about $12-13 million in salaries for the 2009-2010 season.

I like this deal...a lot...if the 1st rounder is there.

Bball
06-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Well then maybe we should trade him to Cleveland for Lebron James

I'm sure it's being discussed. Just another reason for Toronto to act quickly before TPTB get a complete picture of a healthy JO's renewed value and start realizing what these other teams will be offering.

-Bball

ESutt7
06-23-2008, 11:09 AM
I know they probably won't part with Bargz, just thought I'd make everyone aware that his salary could work into the deal. I wouldn't mind adding to get him, depending on who it is. Ike or Shawne maybe?

Putnam
06-23-2008, 11:11 AM
With JO's knee now fully healed and his warrior determination to help lead a team to a championship, Toronto would be an excellent destination for him. With a Bosh and JO frontline Toronto would have a formidable 1-2 punch to get them to the ECF's and an excellent shot of getting past Boston.

Toronto would be foolish not to do this deal.

:signit:



You forgot to say, "especially with Jermaine's exceptional team leadership and locker room presence."

Hicks
06-23-2008, 11:14 AM
Another option is to agree to the deal, but consummate it after the draft. That way, the contract of the #17 pick (probably about $1.5mm, first year) could be used to match the salaries.

I don't think that's legal. You can't trade someone you just signed to a contract like that IIRC.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:14 AM
I'm sure it's being discussed. Just another reason for Toronto to act quickly before TPTB get a complete picture of a healthy JO's renewed value and start realizing what these other teams will be offering.

-Bball

I actually heard there is a three team deal in the works where the Pacers get Lebron James and Chris Paul, the Hornets get Jermaine's shorts, and the Cavs get Jermaine's shoes! Just the items he comes in contact with are going for an amazing value! JO for Ford, Rasho and the 17 would be an outright steal!


On a serious note, its tough to see Bird agreeing to this without the 17 being included. Especially because he already hinted at trying to get a second pick.

Bball
06-23-2008, 11:16 AM
You forgot to say, "especially with Jermaine's exceptional team leadership and locker room presence."

Very true. I also forgot to mention his playoff experience. An All-Star player with playoff experience like JO would add a lot to the Raptors. JO is also a defensive machine with excellent shot-blocking skills and an uncanny ability to get into position to take charges. Add that to his already solid offensive game, including his improved passing out of the post, and you have the potential to be seeing a basketball juggernaut being built just north of the border.

-Bball

ESutt7
06-23-2008, 11:17 AM
If we get Ford I'm interested to see who we get at 11. Are we getting two bigs? Or a big and a SG? Should be an interesting draft day for Pacers fans (finally)....

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:19 AM
If we get Ford I'm interested to see who we get at 11. Are we getting two bigs? Or a big and a SG? Should be an interesting draft day for Pacers fans (finally)....

Gordon (:pray:) at 11.
and
Best big man available at 17.

or

Best big man availble at 11.
and
Rush (:pray:) at 17

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 11:19 AM
So, theoretically, it's:

TJ Ford (3yrs 24.8mm)
Rasho Nesterovic (1 yr, 8.4mm)
#17 (Hopefully)

for

JO (2yrs, 44.4mm)

The Raps would have to add about $0.5mm in salaries to make the deal work, and the only guy they have like that is Jamario Moon, but I'm unsure as to how they'd feel about him as a throw in. They could also throw in the $1.9mm contract of Maceo Baston.

Another option is to agree to the deal, but consummate it after the draft. That way, the contract of the #17 pick (probably about $1.5mm, first year) could be used to match the salaries.

I know Ford is a risk, but I like this deal if the #17 is included. It gives us relatively young point guard (albeit with injury issues), but he has played over 70 games in the two years prior to this.

Nesterovic is a nice size expiring, plus a serviceable big man that can play a little defense.

A second 1st round draft pick in the area where there are a lot of players that we like.

It also could get us under the luxury tax next year and clear about $12-13 million in salaries for the 2009-2010 season.

I like this deal...a lot...if the 1st rounder is there.

I agree. Without the #17 it would be a little hard to swallow. But like a previous poster pointed out, #11 and #17 could end up being Speights/Chalmers or any other combo of solid prospects.

Hicks
06-23-2008, 11:20 AM
Gordon or at 11.
and
Best big man available at 17.

or

Best big man availble at 11.
and
Rush (:pray:) at 17

That's what I was thinking.

count55
06-23-2008, 11:20 AM
I don't think that's legal. You can't trade someone you just signed to a contract like that IIRC.

You have to wait 30 days for rookie contracts. So, say he's signed to the rookie scale contract on 7/1, then he could be dealt on 7/31.

It's actually how the Bender deal went down, IIRC.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 11:21 AM
Filler could be Bargnani. Former #1 pick, shooting big man, compared to Dirk. You KNOW Bird likes that....
I'd MUCH rather have Parker than Bargnani.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 11:25 AM
I don't care if the pacers make this trade, if a point guard is there at 11 and if the scouts and Bird think he is the best player available, they need to take him.

count55
06-23-2008, 11:25 AM
On the filler:

On the good side, it could be Moon ($0.8) or Baston ($1.9), both expiring. They only need $0.5mm to make the deal work.

I don't think they move a Garbajosa or Parker as filler because (a) they're expiring and (b) they are contributors. I also don't think Bargnani would be in play, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

On the bad side, they could try to foist Kapono on us (3 yrs, 18mm-ish), which would torpedo a good portion of the financial benefit.

I think, most likely, it will be Moon or Baston, though.

I'm really hoping there's some fire to this smoke.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:25 AM
I don't care if the pacers make this trade, if a point guard is there at 11 and if the scouts and Bird think he is the best player available, they need to take him.

The chances of the BPA at 11 being a point guard right now are slim and none.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:27 AM
I'd MUCH rather have Parker than Bargnani.

I would go for Bargnani. Sure, hasn't shown that much yet, but he's a big and those take time and I'm sure the talent evaluators saw more then enough things to give him a high ranking on the draftboards everywhere. Patience is a virtue :pray:

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:28 AM
I would go for Bargnani. Sure, hasn't shown that much yet, but he's a big and those take time and I'm sure the talent evaluators saw more then enough things to give him a high ranking on the draftboards everywhere. Patience is a virtue :pray:

Not to mention, he'd be easy to pawn off on someone else as well.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:29 AM
I really hope that if a JO deal is gonna happen, it just happens and doesn't drag on like the Al trade.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:30 AM
I really hope that if a JO deal is gonna happen, it just happens and doesn't drag on like the Al trade.

:amen:

Kraft
06-23-2008, 11:31 AM
If something like this does indeed go down, the Pacers would be swimming with expiring contracts. Foster, Diogu, Daniels, Nesterovic, another Toronto player, Graham. They're all different sizes, too.

Some of them need to expire to extend Granger, but there's enough there to make a run at someone at the trade deadline.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Sure, hasn't shown that much yet, but he's a big and those take time and I'm sure the talent evaluators saw more then enough things to give him a high ranking on the draftboards everywhere.
He's shown talent. What he hasn't shown is toughness.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 11:32 AM
The Toronto Star confirms rumors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.

According to league sources, Toronto has had talks with the Indiana Pacers about acquiring 29-year-old Jermaine O’Neal for a package that would include T.J. Ford, Rasho Nestervoic and, perhaps, the 17th pick in this week’s draft.

The talks are not the point where any deal is imminent and a deal is certainly not assured but the source said the Raptors are aggressively trying to move Ford and O’Neal is one of their targets.

Toronto also still has serious interest in forward Boris Diaw of the Phoenix Suns and is in talks with at least three other teams for trades of a similar magnitude.

O’Neal is coming off an injury-riddled season in which he played just 42 games and averaged 13.6 points and 6.7 rebounds per game. The 6-11 centre has been working out in Las Vegas since just after the 2007-08 season ended and according to reports has just begun full-court work.

Obtaining O’Neal will be a huge two-year financial commitment for the Raptors. He’s due to make about $21 million (all figures U.S.) this season and $23 million in 2009-10. To make the trade work under NBA salary cap rules, Toronto would have to add some other pieces in addition to Ford and Nesterovic but they have several less expensive expiring contracts that would make it work.

But even if the O’Neal trade doesn’t materialize, it does signal just how hard the Raptors are trying to move Ford so they can hand over the starting point guard job to restricted free agent Jose Calderon.

With Phoenix still in the mix and the other teams having talks with Toronto, it would appear Bryan Colangelo will have plenty of options to sift through before Thursday’s draft.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:34 AM
The Toronto Star confirms rumors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.

According to league sources, Toronto has had talks with the Indiana Pacers about acquiring 29-year-old Jermaine O’Neal for a package that would include T.J. Ford, Rasho Nestervoic and, perhaps, the 17th pick in this week’s draft.

The talks are not the point where any deal is imminent and a deal is certainly not assured but the source said the Raptors are aggressively trying to move Ford and O’Neal is one of their targets.

Toronto also still has serious interest in forward Boris Diaw of the Phoenix Suns and is in talks with at least three other teams for trades of a similar magnitude.

O’Neal is coming off an injury-riddled season in which he played just 42 games and averaged 13.6 points and 6.7 rebounds per game. The 6-11 centre has been working out in Las Vegas since just after the 2007-08 season ended and according to reports has just begun full-court work.

Obtaining O’Neal will be a huge two-year financial commitment for the Raptors. He’s due to make about $21 million (all figures U.S.) this season and $23 million in 2009-10. To make the trade work under NBA salary cap rules, Toronto would have to add some other pieces in addition to Ford and Nesterovic but they have several less expensive expiring contracts that would make it work.

But even if the O’Neal trade doesn’t materialize, it does signal just how hard the Raptors are trying to move Ford so they can hand over the starting point guard job to restricted free agent Jose Calderon.

With Phoenix still in the mix and the other teams having talks with Toronto, it would appear Bryan Colangelo will have plenty of options to sift through before Thursday’s draft.

Whats a centre? Freakin' syrup drinkers.

Anyways, there definetely appears to be some fire here.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:36 AM
He's shown talent. What he hasn't shown is toughness.

True, but maybe give the young man a little time. Dirk took awhile, Rik took awhile. I think they both panned out well. Not saying Bargnani will be nearly as good as them just that big men take more time to develop and it seems especially if they are Euro's.

Speed
06-23-2008, 11:36 AM
I really like TJ, you just wonder about durability at his size. But he has to be one of the quickest guys in the league.

Rasto is good in an uptempo offense, but he's more valuable as that expiring contract.

17 pick is what I'm really excited about, you get something nice there this year, maybe thats Ajinca or a Speight/Arthur.

If you have the 11 and 17 you can really do alot of things, maybe even move up. The very least I think in this draft you can get two rotation quality guys down the line.

I think this is either almost true, or maybe it's last call.

Give us your best trade offer now because we are moving JO Thursday, no more BS trade offers.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 11:36 AM
Whats a centre? Freakin' syrup drinkers.

Anyways, there definetely appears to be some fire here.

I love syrup ay:D

Anthem
06-23-2008, 11:37 AM
True, but maybe give the young man a little time. Dirk took awhile, Rik took awhile. I think they both panned out well. Not saying Bargnani will be nearly as good as them just that big men take more time to develop and it seems especially if they are Euro's.
Bargnani seems more like Tskitishvili than Nowitski.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 11:39 AM
According to league sources, Toronto has had talks with the Indiana Pacers about acquiring 29-year-old Jermaine O’Neal for a package that would include T.J. Ford, Rasho Nestervoic and, perhaps, the 17th pick in this week’s draft.
Perhaps? Without the pick, the deal isn't worth anything.

If we're desperate to move one player, it should be Tinsley, not Jermaine.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:40 AM
I really like TJ, you just wonder about durability at his size. But he has to be one of the quickest guys in the league.

Rasto is good in an uptempo offense, but he's more valuable as that expiring contract.

17 pick is what I'm really excited about, you get something nice there this year, maybe thats Ajinca or a Speight/Arthur.

If you have the 11 and 17 you can really do alot of things, maybe even move up. The very least I think in this draft you can get two rotation quality guys down the line.

I think this is either almost true, or maybe it's last call.

Give us your best trade offer now because we are moving JO Thursday, no more BS trade offers.

Would combining a only just gained #17 pick with our #41 pick to get a little better pick (#12-#14 for example) be "legal" and/or would it be worth it? How much could we maybe move up?

Hicks
06-23-2008, 11:42 AM
I really hope that if a JO deal is gonna happen, it just happens and doesn't drag on like the Al trade.

God that was awful.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 11:43 AM
Perhaps? Without the pick, the deal isn't worth anything.

If we're desperate to move one player, it should be Tinsley, not Jermaine.

I totally aggree with the above.


Bargnani seems more like Tskitishvili than Nowitski.

Well Dirk wasn't that great when he came into the league either :). I think he will be a nice center actually. Not a Bynum or something, but subtop at his position at worst.

Just my :twocents: offcourse.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 11:43 AM
God that was awful.

Yeah, I'm not sure I could maintain my sanity if that happens again. My work performance is already at an all time low. :D

maragin
06-23-2008, 11:50 AM
Please let it be true and let it actually happen.

This was my initial gut reaction.

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 11:51 AM
I would be so happy to HAve JErmaine O'neal In Toronto. Cause I know he's gonna be healthy next year. . .PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LOL

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Just watch for Draft night

Shade
06-23-2008, 11:57 AM
I, for one, feel this is a bad deal for us.

We have a better version of Rasho in Foster. At least Nester is an expiring, I guess.

Ford is just as injury-prone as JO, and not nearly as good when both players are at 100%. Plus, you don't gamble on players with back problems.

If this deal includes the #17, it's still an underwhelming deal for us, unless we get a steal with that pick. If the deal doesn't include the pick, it's highway robbery.:thumbsdow

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 11:58 AM
Hmm was this "leaked" to push Phoenix into a corner?

MyFavMartin
06-23-2008, 12:00 PM
I am a Pacer fan and endorse this trade.

Bball
06-23-2008, 12:00 PM
It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.

JO is already phoning his agent to tell him to inform the Raptors that he will not be called a center no matter how they spell it in Canada.

-Bball

Will Galen
06-23-2008, 12:00 PM
Hmm was this "leaked" to push Phoenix into a corner?

Don't know that, but I'm starting to think we might see a lot of trades just as we did at last years trade deadline.

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 12:02 PM
ewee it's noon...I can't wait to hear ESPN pronounce this trade a "done deal".

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 12:03 PM
I'd MUCH rather have Parker than Bargnani.

You mean the player Bird dropped the ball on while scouting Runi and Maceo. Bird could get a 2nd chance to get Anthony. I've kept my eye on AP ever since he became a Raptor. He should fit well into JOB's system. IIRC, he shoots the 3 at a great %. He's a nice player as a filler pick up.

SoupIsGood
06-23-2008, 12:04 PM
Guys if this deal goes down I think you're going to be disappointed in the amount of games TJ is actually able to play for us with his injury.

But I would rather have Ford and his salary sitting out games for us and be plus one expiring contract and pick rather than JO missing games at an outrageous salary.


And also I love me so Rashooooooo.

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 12:05 PM
Parker is nice. But the thing about Bargnani is that he doesnt like to rebound.

Speed
06-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Would combining a only just gained #17 pick with our #41 pick to get a little better pick (#12-#14 for example) be "legal" and/or would it be worth it? How much could we maybe move up?

I don't see why its not legal, I don't know of any rules about JUST obtained picks not being able to be traded. I would wonder if the #41 has enough juice to get up farther, unless you're looking at Portland at 13 who may just want to move out of the 1st round completely. If you have someone you could get at 13 you thought you couldn't at 17 it would be worth it.

BobbyMac
06-23-2008, 12:10 PM
I might be interested in this if we do get the 17 pick. Until I see someone other than Mike Wells talk about it I wouldn't hold my breath.

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 12:12 PM
The Toronto Star confirms rumors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.

According to league sources, Toronto has had talks with the Indiana Pacers about acquiring 29-year-old Jermaine O’Neal for a package that would include T.J. Ford, Rasho Nestervoic and, perhaps, the 17th pick in this week’s draft.

.

Don't like the sounds of that. No pick, no deal (but then I'm not the GM am I?)

Rajah Brown
06-23-2008, 12:13 PM
Shade-

I'm no fan of Rasho. But is Foster long for the world in Indy ? He's
probably our second most attractive asset (to DG). Given that he's
not likely to be the player he is now 2-4 years from now if and
when the Pacers are contending again, it makes sense to move
him with his value at it's peak.

Shade
06-23-2008, 12:16 PM
If this happens, I would have to really hope we'd take Chalmers with #17. We can't count on a Ford/Diener combo at point.

Since we would have so many expirings, are there any teams under the cap enough that we could bounce an expiring to for a draft pick? I would like this deal more if we are able to move some other players and pick up more picks. Let's go Portland-style and rebuild this sucker in this year's draft.

DisplacedKnick
06-23-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't see why its not legal, I don't know of any rules about JUST obtained picks not being able to be traded. I would wonder if the #41 has enough juice to get up farther, unless you're looking at Portland at 13 who may just want to move out of the 1st round completely. If you have someone you could get at 13 you thought you couldn't at 17 it would be worth it.

A lot of times what happens is you wait until the team picking first picks - they get who you want they trade the rights to the player they just picked for your pick.

Sometimes it isn't announced until both teams have selected, so both teams are sure they get what they want. Since rights to unsigned draft picks have the same salary value (zero) as the picks themselves it's a handy way to do business.

SoupIsGood
06-23-2008, 12:18 PM
In my dreams we would turn a deal like this around and start talking to Miami about Granger, #11, #17, #41 and whatever the hell else they could possibly want for Rose. :eyebrow:

Shade
06-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Shade-

I'm no fan of Rasho. But is Foster long for the world in Indy ? He's
probably our second most attractive asset (to DG). Given that he's
not likely to be the player he is now 2-4 years from now if and
when the Pacers are contending again, it makes sense to move
him with his value at it's peak.

Maybe we can move Foster for another draft pick?

I don't think Nester is the answer here, either. I'd love if we could move him for another pick as well (even a high #2).

Shade
06-23-2008, 12:20 PM
In my dreams we would turn a deal like this around and start talking to Miami about Granger, #11, #17, #41 and whatever the hell else they could possibly want for Rose. :eyebrow:

Too bad we'd have no team left to put around him. :laugh:

SoupIsGood
06-23-2008, 12:24 PM
Too bad we'd have no team left to put around him. :laugh:

Rose to Rasho, FTW!

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 12:24 PM
Don't like the sounds of that. No pick, no deal (but then I'm not the GM am I?)

That's the media speculation. Colangelo already said he's not that excited about the draft, and wants something to help the team win now. WHich is why I think we can get the 17th pick in this deal

naptownmenace
06-23-2008, 12:28 PM
I, for one, feel this is a bad deal for us.

We have a better version of Rasho in Foster. At least Nester is an expiring, I guess.

Ford is just as injury-prone as JO, and not nearly as good when both players are at 100%. Plus, you don't gamble on players with back problems.

If this deal includes the #17, it's still an underwhelming deal for us, unless we get a steal with that pick. If the deal doesn't include the pick, it's highway robbery.:thumbsdow

Count me in this same camp. I'd rather keep JO than do this deal.

If we're going to make a deal, I hope we can somehow convince Chicago to send us Hinrich and Gooden.

Speed
06-23-2008, 12:30 PM
B Lopez at 11 and Chalmers at 17, maybe?

or

Rush and Ajinca?

Gordon and R Lopez

How about Lopez and Lopez???

the possiblities are there for alot of things.

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=SoupIsGood;739698]But I would rather have Ford and his salary sitting out games for us and be plus one expiring contract and pick rather than JO missing games at an outrageous salary./QUOTE]


Amen, keep preaching!

circlecitysportsfan
06-23-2008, 12:39 PM
Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 12:40 PM
B Lopez at 11 and Chalmers at 17, maybe?
That would be a really good draft.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 12:40 PM
Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.
He's not. That's why Toronto wants to move him.

Mourning
06-23-2008, 12:41 PM
Well another positive from this could be that other teams that had maybe some interest in JO because of his contract becoming available when LeBron hits FA might also start doing something more to entice us to deal with them instead of Toronto.

So far it seems more likely IMO that Toronto is the one doing that though ;).

Speed
06-23-2008, 12:42 PM
He can dominate in stretches. He's one of the quickest/fastest guys in the league, easily. He's also weak and you have to cover for him against the Andre Millers and Deron Williams of the league. Its all about match ups. He's still better than anyone they've had at the position since Mark Jackson, imho.

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 12:43 PM
He's not. That's why Toronto wants to move him.

Toronto wants to move him, cause they Want Calderon as the starter

Anthem
06-23-2008, 12:47 PM
Toronto wants to move him, cause they Want Calderon as the starter
Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.

jcouts
06-23-2008, 12:49 PM
T.J. Ford's style of play doesn't fit that well into Sam Mitchell's system. He was brought in when Colangelo came to town because of his ability to push the ball, but Mitchell has slowed the team down a bit. If Carlisle was still the Pacers coach, there would be little reason to bring in Ford...but, Ford, I do believe, would be a great fit in the system the Pacers are currently running because of his ability to push the ball up the floor. I do recall that game against Milwaukee a few years ago when he single handedly beat our entire team up the floor every time. I do believe that if he had permission to do that, outside of Mitchell's system, you would see him doing that. I'm all for bringing him to town.

Oneal07
06-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.

LOL. ok

duke dynamite
06-23-2008, 12:50 PM
If we can get another 1st round pick out of this deal, then go for it.

I really think TJ Ford could be a decent, not great starter. Not sure how long that back of his could hold up though.

This will put Murph at starting PF which I am more comfortable with, and Nesterovic could potentally be a decent backup to Foster.

Now if this trade goes down, our potential draft picks/hopes totally change.

diamonddave00
06-23-2008, 12:50 PM
If the rumor is correct and the Pacers can acquire TJ Ford , Nesterovic , #17 and filler for JO , I still draft DJ Augustin at pick 11 if he is there. At pick 17 you draft Marresse Speights or Javale McGee.

With Ford and Augustin , you do as the Raptors did with Ford and Calderon and keep the pressure on defense with 2 point guards who can play uptempto sharing the playing time each night based on who is playing well .

The Pacers could then buy out Jamaal Tinsley , let whoever wants him pay him the league minimum. Its apparent O'Brien and Bird are not wanting him around.

Nesterovic's 8 mil expiring , Daniels 7.3 team option, Foster 5.5, not resigning Harrison 2.6mil qualifying offer , nor Diogu 3.9 qualifying offer for 2009/10 eases the salary cap space even eating Tinsley's deal for 2009/10 and 2010/11.

To me though the key is pick 17 must be part of the trade .

owl
06-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Hibbert and Chalmers
Ajinca and Chalmers
Speights and Chalmers
Hibbert and Rush
Ajinca and Rush
Speights and Rush

and at 41 take Hill or Dorsey or Burrell.

I would not be surprised at 2 bigs with Burrell at 41. Green as a non drafted invitee to camp.

PaceBalls
06-23-2008, 12:54 PM
The perfect point guard is an illusion..

Here is what we get with TJ, a super fast- blow by anyone player who is one of the best finishers in the league. What you dont get is a PG is can post up on O, or D up in the post vs bigger PGs.
Jamaal would totally abuse him in the post in practices, then you would have TJ blow by Jamaal every time on the other side.
But, TJ is so fast he is a very good perimeter defender, it is just when he is matched up by stronger PGs who try to post him up that he will need help.

Kraft
06-23-2008, 12:54 PM
I like how it's hit ESPN's front. Only because the word arrest isn't prominent.

Major Cold
06-23-2008, 12:54 PM
If they make this deal, does this mean we are drafting Speights/Randolph?

count55
06-23-2008, 12:56 PM
Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.

True...if he were that guy, we probably couldn't touch him.

We have a beggar's choice with JO, but I like the risk here. If we can get Ford and the #17, then reduce our payroll this year and next by using Rasho and Baston as filler, then I think we should jump on it.

Plus, let's say Ford suffers that injury that we fear. His total contract over the next three years is only $1.8 million more than we owe JO in the 2009-2010 season. (The one downside is that it does extend $8.3mm into 2010-2011.) (The total contract commitment, assuming we get Baston and #17, would end up a couple million less than what we owe JO, assuming a 4-yr, $7mm deal for the pick.)

However, if Ford can play 70+ games at 13 & 7 (as he did the two seasons prior to this past one), then we get an upgrade at the point, and more flexibility in the draft (being able to go big, and two get two chances in the first round.)

Naptown_Seth
06-23-2008, 12:56 PM
Makes sense. They'd have to worry about J.O.'s knee, and we'd have to worry about Ford's back. I think it's a good deal. But man, if J.O. plays at least 70 games next to Chris Bosh...
I agree across the board. This is what fair deals look like, risk on both sides where neither feels like it's "obvious". Even if JO does play a lot it still doesn't impact the Pacers much. They seem stuck and ready to move forward in a new way and this is a step in that direction.

My point in any deal for JO, or Dun, Tins, etc would be that these are the deals that setup the NEXT deal(s). This isn't a one year fix, this is a legit reworking that's already been in place 2 years. The Golden St trade was big and moved 2 major pieces, one of which was part of the PR issues. So the rebuild starts there and it involved the team taking some real lumps in the W-L department as well as taking on some salary they didn't want.

This trade wouldn't make the team better, but it could put a solid pick at 17 on the roster and give you a peek at a possible PG solution/help. This is what you do in order to get the roster really cleaned out and turned over.


And I love JO as a Pacer btw. I just accept the nature of the situation.

Slick Pinkham
06-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Could we have Christmas in June. To get rid of JO I would do almost anything

Naw,

Christmas would be if Tinsley were included too.

This would just be an early 4th of July celebration. I know I'd launch a bottle rocket or too, even though Rasho is near-worthless and TJ is an injury concern.

JO and David H for TJ, Rasho, #17, and Anthony Parker or Kris Humphries works for me.

Real GM lists TJ as a full base-year-comp guy, so I couldn't get any trades to work ...

count55
06-23-2008, 01:03 PM
I agree across the board. This is what fair deals look like, risk on both sides where neither feels like it's "obvious". Even if JO does play a lot it still doesn't impact the Pacers much. They seem stuck and ready to move forward in a new way and this is a step in that direction.

My point in any deal for JO, or Dun, Tins, etc would be that these are the deals that setup the NEXT deal(s). This isn't a one year fix, this is a legit reworking that's already been in place 2 years. The Golden St trade was big and moved 2 major pieces, one of which was part of the PR issues. So the rebuild starts there and it involved the team taking some real lumps in the W-L department as well as taking on some salary they didn't want.

This trade wouldn't make the team better, but it could put a solid pick at 17 on the roster and give you a peek at a possible PG solution/help. This is what you do in order to get the roster really cleaned out and turned over.


And I love JO as a Pacer btw. I just accept the nature of the situation.

I think it could make the team better, but I'm guessing it all depends on what you expect out of JO.

If you think that JO can be healthy again and productive, then, no it doesn't. If JO would play 70+ games and provide, say, 18/8/3, then he'd be a boon to the team.

If, however, you doubt JO can ever be counted on for that type of games/production (as I do), then you start comparing the team that you would have to the team that played for most of last year. Essentially, adding Ford and Nesterovic to the mix, I think you're a better team.

However, I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. This is a nice, balanced risk trade, assuming we get the #17. The type of deal that I would love to work out for both teams: TJ and JO getting 70+ games and helping their teams out.

MyFavMartin
06-23-2008, 01:05 PM
foster, daniels, rasho all expiring, right?

swing a trade with NY to send Tinsley away and get the expiring Starbury?

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 01:12 PM
Funny how things change!! A deal should have been done 2 years ago with Toronto! When it was circulated a deal of JO for CV, big expiring(can't presently remember who), filler and the Raptors #1 pick which was the 1st pick, fans on all boards had a fit. JO was worth more was the cried! I was in total favor of the trade, and like to got hung for my view. As I tried explaining, that Roy would be the #1, CV, expiring, and filler. No one wanted that crappy deal, for JO was worth more. Yeah right! I'd trade JO straight up for Roy, if it was possible, and carry his luggage on my back to the airport for his flight to his new home at Conseco.

Some times a 2nd opportunity avails itself, and this is one of them. Take the trade that Toronto is offering, and consider it a blessing. Keep in mind you are getting a decent PG, a center with a 8 mil expiring, filler, and the #17 pick. Take Speights at #11 as JO's future replacement, take the #17 to draft Lee/Weaver/Ajinca. Everyone is willing to gamble on JO's health then it shouldn't be a problem gambling on Ford's health as the PG.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 01:13 PM
I think it could make the team better, but I'm guessing it all depends on what you expect out of JO.

If you think that JO can be healthy again and productive, then, no it doesn't. If JO would play 70+ games and provide, say, 18/8/3, then he'd be a boon to the team.

If, however, you doubt JO can ever be counted on for that type of games/production (as I do), then you start comparing the team that you would have to the team that played for most of last year. Essentially, adding Ford and Nesterovic to the mix, I think you're a better team.

However, I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. This is a nice, balanced risk trade, assuming we get the #17. The type of deal that I would love to work out for both teams: TJ and JO getting 70+ games and helping their teams out.

It's not just about health. JO is a back to the basket, half court post player. The Pacers are no longer a half court, pound it in the post team. Healthy or not, he just doesn't fit anymore.

Fool
06-23-2008, 01:15 PM
Last I knew, Toronto wasn't going for a half-court back to the basket kind of offensive game either and they seem to think JO can fit in their scheme.

count55
06-23-2008, 01:16 PM
Naw,

Christmas would be if Tinsley were included too.

This would just be an early 4th of July celebration. I know I'd launch a bottle rocket or too, even though Rasho is near-worthless and TJ is an injury concern.

JO and David H for TJ, Rasho, #17, and Anthony Parker or Kris Humphries works for me.

Real GM lists TJ as a full base-year-comp guy, so I couldn't get any trades to work ...

TJ's BYC would expire on June 30th...

The Pacers could do the deal with Parker:

Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.
Due to Indiana and Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +18.8 ppg, +4.2 rpg, and +7.2 apg.
Incoming Players
T.J. Ford
5-11 PG from Texas
12.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 6.1 apg in 23.5 minutes
Rasho Nesterovic
7-0 C from Slovenia (Foreign)
7.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.9 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
12.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.2 apg in 32.1 minutes
1st Round 2008 (#17)

Outgoing Players
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
13.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in 28.7 minutes

Or, the as I mentioned earlier, the deal could be agreed to today, but consummated in August, using only Ford, Nesterovic, and the signed #17 draft pick (30 days after his contract signing). That would be the most advantageous to the Pacers from a cap perspective, but would require (a not unprecedented) "wink-and-a-nod" deal.

Otherwise, TJ's $8,275 would only count as $4,138 for Toronto's outgoing salary for cap purposes in any pre 6/30 deal. (It would still be $8.3 for us.)

rock747
06-23-2008, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I don't really understand why Toronto wants Jermaine? Him and Bosh really play the same posistion. I don't see why he would be the one thay make a trade for.

I hope this gets done though!

ABADays
06-23-2008, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by 2minutes twowa http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/buttons/PDbuttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?p=739656#post739656)
The Toronto Star confirms rumors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.


How can this be? I thought JO was a forward. At least, that's what he keeps telling everyone.

Will Galen
06-23-2008, 01:20 PM
TJ's BYC would expire on June 30th...

The Pacers could do the deal with Parker:

Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.
Due to Indiana and Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +18.8 ppg, +4.2 rpg, and +7.2 apg.
Incoming Players
T.J. Ford
5-11 PG from Texas
12.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 6.1 apg in 23.5 minutes
Rasho Nesterovic
7-0 C from Slovenia (Foreign)
7.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.9 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
12.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.2 apg in 32.1 minutes
1st Round 2008 (#17)

Outgoing Players
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
13.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in 28.7 minutes

Or, the as I mentioned earlier, the deal could be agreed to today, but consummated in August, using only Ford, Nesterovic, and the signed #17 draft pick (30 days after his contract signing). That would be the most advantageous to the Pacers from a cap perspective, but would require (a not unprecedented) "wink-and-a-nod" deal.

Otherwise, TJ's $8,275 would only count as $4,138 for Toronto's outgoing salary for cap purposes in any pre 6/30 deal. (It would still be $8.3 for us.)

Parker's their starting 2 guard, they're not going to add him to the mix, more like Baston.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 01:24 PM
Last I knew, Toronto wasn't going for a half-court back to the basket kind of offensive game either and they seem to think JO can fit in their scheme.

Sam Mitchell doesn't run as uptempo an offense as JOB, and Jermaine would not be asked to be the primary option on offense. He would likely concentrate D and RBs. Which brings me to my next question. Will JO huff and puff and blow this whole trade down if he doesn't like what his role will be or because Toronto isn't a title contender?

circlecitysportsfan
06-23-2008, 01:24 PM
Yeah, I don't really understand why Toronto wants Jermaine? Him and Bosh really play the same position. I don't see why he would be the one thay make a trade for.

I hope this gets done though!

SHHHH!!!! :laugh:

circlecitysportsfan
06-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Sam Mitchell doesn't run as uptempo an offense as JOB, and Jermaine would not be asked to be the primary option on offense. He would likely concentrate D and RBs. Which brings me to my next question. Will JO huff and puff and blow this whole trade down if he doesn't like what his role will be or because Toronto isn't a title contender?

What choice does JO have? He can't veto the deal and this is not a sign and trade situation. You know what? Screw JO. Who really cares what he wants anymore.

count55
06-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Parker's their starting 2 guard, they're not going to add him to the mix, more like Baston.

Rumble out of Toronto is that he (Parker) may be looking to head back overseas...


Olympiacos is interested in Raptors guard Anthony Parker. "Its still too early to say anything. I have Olympiacos' offer in my mind, but I still belong to the Raptors so its not easy," Parker says.

I just have the quote, and I'm trying to dig up the link. He's guaranteed, so it's not like he can just bolt the Raps, but at the same time, they may not think he's a long-term solution.

bambam
06-23-2008, 01:27 PM
I would like to see the Pacers take Randolph at 11 and Chalmers at 17. But, I wouldnt be suprised to see Augustine at 11 and Hibbert at 17 if the trade does get done.

croz24
06-23-2008, 01:28 PM
toronto won't give up parker too...i'd do this deal, but having two 1sts in the top 20 gives you even more incentive to draft bpa with #11. hibbert at #11 is way too high. same with chalmers at #17.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 01:28 PM
What choice does JO have? He can't veto the deal and this is not a sign and trade situation. You know what? Screw JO. Who really cares what he wants anymore.

He could fail his physical;)

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 01:30 PM
Which brings me to my next question. Will JO huff and puff and blow this whole trade down if he doesn't like what his role will be or because Toronto isn't a title contender?

Wouldn't be the 1st time he's messed up a possible deal with his mouth.

Fool
06-23-2008, 01:31 PM
Sam Mitchell doesn't run as uptempo an offense as JOB, and Jermaine would not be asked to be the primary option on offense. He would likely concentrate D and RBs. Which brings me to my next question. Will JO huff and puff and blow this whole trade down if he doesn't like what his role will be or because Toronto isn't a title contender?

The Pacers don't need a guy to rebound and concentrate on D?

I agree that's how JO would play in Toronto and is why he'd be good even though "they play the same position". JO could be the defensive version of Bosh and Bosh is much more efficient on offense then JO.

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 01:32 PM
Because Ford's not the guy he was a few years ago in the season opener.

TJ Ford was amazing last year alone.

But then he was slammed so hard to the floor that I shouted in disbelief. Yes, he has a narrow spinal canal, but that's no reason to think that he's going to suffer a huge blow like that every year. TJ Ford at 90% is still way better than any point guard we currently have AND any point guard we could acquire in the draft. Plus it's only a few years commitment, which should be just enough time for a younger point guard to develop and take over the job or split duties with Ford.

The Unknown
06-23-2008, 01:32 PM
Ford is very good, much better than people realize. 12 points and 6 assists per game in just 23 minutes is fantastic production (20.6 ppg, 10.4 apg per-40 minutes).

bambam
06-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Ford is very good, much better than people realize. 12 points and 6 assists per game in just 23 minutes is fantastic production (20.6 ppg, 10.4 apg per-40 minutes).


i would take 8pts, as long as he can dish out 10 ast per game, with very little turnovers.

Speed
06-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Side Note: TJ Ford has been a main mentor for DJ Augustine during his preparation for this draft too.

Maybe you get TJ, DJ, and DJ White??

Natston
06-23-2008, 01:38 PM
TJ Ford was amazing last year alone.

But then he was slammed so hard to the floor that I shouted in disbelief. Yes, he has a narrow spinal canal, but that's no reason to think that he's going to suffer a huge blow like that every year. TJ Ford at 90% is still way better than any point guard we currently have AND any point guard we could acquire in the draft. Plus it's only a few years commitment, which should be jsut enough time for a younger point guard to develop and take over the job or split duties with Ford.

QFT

Rasho and TJ hold down the fort for a year or two for the 'kids' to get ready, and we stay down in the lottery.

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 01:41 PM
toronto won't give up parker too...i'd do this deal, but having two 1sts in the top 20 gives you even more incentive to draft bpa with #11. hibbert at #11 is way too high. same with chalmers at #17.

I agree with Hibbert being too high, not to mention I don't want him, period.

If you want Chalmers, 17 is in the ball game for him. Besides the Pacers would only have the 11 & 17 to get Chalmers, and he's not worth the 11 which only leaves the 17.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 01:41 PM
The Pacers don't need a guy to rebound and concentrate on D?

This is the difference between the 2 teams. Toronto sees JO as a missing piece for a young up and coming team. The exact same JO is the last piece from a team whose time has passed.

Anthem
06-23-2008, 01:43 PM
TJ Ford at 90% is still way better than any point guard we currently have AND any point guard we could acquire in the draft. Plus it's only a few years commitment, which should be just enough time for a younger point guard to develop and take over the job or split duties with Ford.
I didn't say I wouldn't be happy to have TJ Ford. I just said he's not the same player who destroyed us in Milwaukee.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 01:43 PM
Did anyone else hear Wells on Kravitiz and Eddie show last Friday. He said that he expects Tinsley to be bought out (unless they find some team to take him) but he also does not expect JO to be on the Pacers roster next season. He didn't mention anything about this trade last week, but he seemed pretty confident on the other two things

bambam
06-23-2008, 01:44 PM
I agree with Hibbert being too high, not to mention I don't want him, period.

If you want Chalmers, 17 is in the ball game for him. Besides the Pacers would only have the 11 & 17 to get Chalmers, and he's not worth the 11 which only leaves the 17.


So neither of you have a problem with Randolph at 11? I think the kid has the Bender potential we never got. He is long and athletic.

diamonddave00
06-23-2008, 01:45 PM
TJ Ford can not play 40 minutes a night , thats why you still take DJ Augustin at 11 , two very quick guards to force the other teams defense to get back quickly 48 minutes a night.

This also allows the Pacers to buy out Tinsley's contract.

You take a big at 17 and start building with a 25 yr old Ford , 20 year old Augustin , a young big added .

Nestrovic's and Daniels' 15 mil expiring contracts help offset paying Tinsley to play elsewhere. Nestrovic and a young big allows the Pacers to let Harrison go and still have bigs to play minutes here. Saving 2 mil it cost to resign Harrison ;basicly pick 17's salary.

But without pick 17 I'm very reluctant to make the trade. Even though JO is injury prone Ford is one hard hit from retirement , thus drafting a pg like Augustin is still a must.

The Unknown
06-23-2008, 01:48 PM
I didn't say I wouldn't be happy to have TJ Ford. I just said he's not the same player who destroyed us in Milwaukee.

He's had the two best seasons of his career in Toronto, post-fall.

14 and 8 in 30 minutes, 12 and 6 in 23 minutes. Great production, and he's great at driving to the basket and kicking it out for the three. He's perfect for our team, and is easily a top-10 point guard in terms of talent.

Naptown_Seth
06-23-2008, 01:50 PM
Did anyone else hear Wells on Kravitiz and Eddie show last Friday. He said that he expects Tinsley to be bought out (unless they find some team to take him) but he also does not expect JO to be on the Pacers roster next season. He didn't mention anything about this trade last week, but he seemed pretty confident on the other two things
Kravitz has been talking about walking to Carmel if Tinsley's still on the roster, he's that certain. But then going by his previous knowledge level I'm pretty certain Wells has been giving him the inside buzz rather than Bob knowing anything more than Mike.

So Mike thinks this trade is a good possibility and that Tins will not be allowed to return, regardless of what it takes to make that happen. I hate the buyout idea but I can see where a little savings and chemistry/PR improvement might be the primary goal at this point.


If this isn't the JO deal you have to assume other teams have noticed and know the price for JO.



Another option is to agree to the deal, but consummate it after the draft. That way, the contract of the #17 pick (probably about $1.5mm, first year) could be used to match the salaries.
This would be my guess at how it might go down.



Chalmers at 17 please. There's your 6'1 190 PG who won't have the same size issues that DJ would, gives you some variety at PG with Ford/Diener as the other style. Chalmers can swing to SG at times in terms of offense. That lets you get a solid big at 11 which is what they want I think. I hope its not Koufos, maybe it's really Arthur or perhaps Speights.

Mario and Arthur certainly no how to work the PnR together.

Speed
06-23-2008, 01:53 PM
I still wouldn't bet on Randolph, even though a trade like this let's you consider swinging for the fences.

I'm thinking B Rush or Chalmers and a Lopez. If Brook drops at 11 or if his brother at 17 if he doesn't. Then you move Jeff while you still can and get another 1st rounder in this years draft and get a Deandre Jordan in the 20s.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 01:57 PM
Mario and Arthur certainly no how to work the PnR together.

Never thought of the possible Kansas duo. I still think Speights is the guy and I really don't want anything to do with the Lopez brothers. They remind me of "Chris Mihm" type players.

Bball
06-23-2008, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by 2minutes twowa http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/buttons/PDbuttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?p=739656#post739656)
The Toronto Star confirms rumors:
http://www.thestar.com/sports

It’s all very tentative and quite up in the air but the Raptors have already investigated the possibility of a blockbuster trade that would net them a veteran – yet expensive – NBA centre.


How can this be? I thought JO was a forward. At least, that's what he keeps telling everyone.

Too slow on the draw ABADays! I couldn't let that one slip by when I saw it ;)

JO is already phoning his agent to tell him to inform the Raptors that he will not be called a center no matter how they spell it in Canada.

-Bball

Lord Helmet
06-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Did anyone else hear Wells on Kravitiz and Eddie show last Friday. He said that he expects Tinsley to be bought out (unless they find some team to take him) but he also does not expect JO to be on the Pacers roster next season. He didn't mention anything about this trade last week, but he seemed pretty confident on the other two things
Good.

I was just getting ready to comment and say the Pacers need to be worrying about getting one of the actual cancers on this team removed.

Buy him out. Do something.

If O'Neal is gone, so be it. Although I would not be opposed to riding out his contract.

If the pick is not included in this trade, the TPTB should not even pick up the phones.

Bball
06-23-2008, 02:01 PM
Do you have to buy Tinsley out? Can't he be suspended with pay and told to stay home?

...Or would he accept a buyout below his contract price to get a good chunk o cash up front rather than waiting on it?

-Bball

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 02:05 PM
So neither of you have a problem with Randolph at 11? I think the kid has the Bender potential we never got. He is long and athletic.


Thanx but no thanx.

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 02:06 PM
Do you have to buy Tinsley out? Can't he be suspended with pay and told to stay home?

...Or would he accept a buyout below his contract price to get a good chunk o cash up front rather than waiting on it?

-Bball

I don't believe you can suspend a player just because he's an A$$---->:jamaaltinsley: Otherwise, JT would've been suspended a long time ago. Better to buy him out and burn all bridges.

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 02:16 PM
Do you have to buy Tinsley out? Can't he be suspended with pay and told to stay home?

...Or would he accept a buyout below his contract price to get a good chunk o cash up front rather than waiting on it?

-Bball

Unless you really love fighting with the players union, losing truck-fulls of money on lawyers and creating a gigantic distraction for the team (again), I'd say buyout is the best option.

Make it a man-to-man handshake deal and be done with it.

avoidingtheclowns
06-23-2008, 02:17 PM
On the filler:

On the good side, it could be Moon ($0.8) or Baston ($1.9), both expiring. They only need $0.5mm to make the deal work.

TJ is actually BYC so it would take more than just $0.5mil if they made it official before the 08-09 contracts begin. you'd need to add someone like Parker.


I don't think they move a Garbajosa or Parker as filler because (a) they're expiring and (b) they are contributors. I also don't think Bargnani would be in play, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

i thought they just bought garbajosa out.


honestly about this deal, i'm just not a TJ fan given his injury history. i think he'd make much more sense on a current playoff team. is there someway to involve cleveland in this?

count55
06-23-2008, 02:21 PM
TJ is actually BYC so it would take more than just $0.5mil if they made it official before the 08-09 contracts begin. you'd need to add someone like Parker.

Yeah, I didn't pick that up until later.

bambam
06-23-2008, 02:29 PM
Thanx but no thanx.

Just wondering why not? He is what T.Prince was, raw and thin coming into the NBA, but with alot of potential. If the Pacers wouldnt of passed on Prince, sure you would of enjoyed Prince as a Pacer.

bambam
06-23-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't believe you can suspend a player just because he's an A$$---->:jamaaltinsley: Otherwise, JT would've been suspended a long time ago. Better to buy him out and burn all bridges.


I would take a 2nd rounder this year or future drafts. Just to unload the guy. Its to bad, cause I think we have all seen what JT is capable of, but every year something in his head ticks and it starts down hill.

Bball
06-23-2008, 02:32 PM
Unless you really love fighting with the players union, losing truck-fulls of money on lawyers and creating a gigantic distraction for the team (again), I'd say buyout is the best option.

Make it a man-to-man handshake deal and be done with it.

Obviously, buying him out creates a roster spot and removes any chance of ever seeing him in a Pacer uniform again... both great things IMO.

I suppose if there was a chance in h377 of him being traded then they wouldn't consider buying him out. I predicted a long time ago that once Tinsley was no longer a Pacer he'd be out of the NBA entirely in another season or two. If the only option is to buy him out then that means his next team will only have to pay the minimum to get him. ...And that means they won't have any troubles at all waiving him when he debuts the Tinsley show in another city.

The Bad Egg era is about over... I hope!

-Bball

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 02:37 PM
As it is with any negotiation, the person with the most desire is the one with the least power. The pacers REALLY want him gone. That puts them at a disadvantage both in dealing with other teams AND dealing with Tinsley directly for a buyout. Conversely, Tinsley holds the power in negotiations to get every penny owed to him, and even more from another team (hey the minimum is still good money).

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 02:38 PM
After re-reading the article (this time on RealGM), I'm convinced this won't happen. It appears as tho the Raps are talking to several teams AND there remains too much time between now and the draft. It's just too early in the game for this to be taken seriously.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 02:39 PM
I am just thinking out loud here, (I'm sure if JO and JT are both gone before the season starts there will be a ful scale discussion about this topic) but my question - if both are gone will fans, both die-hard and casual believe the era of bad feeling is over (or the bad egg era is over) will people jump back on.

Putnam
06-23-2008, 02:40 PM
If we're going to trade JO to get TJ, we should get rid of JT before he pulls an OJ.

count55
06-23-2008, 02:44 PM
I am just thinking out loud here, (I'm sure if JO and JT are both gone before the season starts there will be a ful scale discussion about this topic) but my question - if both are gone will fans, both die-hard and casual believe the era of bad feeling is over (or the bad egg era is over) will people jump back on.

No...people will not jump back on until they win again. Losing fans is far easier than getting them back. While there may be some small portion of hard core fans who left because of the "era of bad feeling", I believe most of the people who left were the casual fans, and it's likely that even if the team was completely free of anyone with the bad reputation, they would not come back to watch a 30-win team. I suspect that a not-insignificant portion of those casual fans would probably still continue to view the Pacers (and the NBA in general) as just a collection of bums and thugs, even if that were the farthest thing from the truth.

Suaveness
06-23-2008, 02:45 PM
It would be nice if all these picks could somehow be used to get a higher pick. This draft is pretty meh.

NapTonius Monk
06-23-2008, 02:48 PM
God, what a terrible trade. Honestly, if that's all that's getting offered up for JO, I'll take my chances on him this year. T.J. Ford is not a long term answer at PG and while Rasho is a nice expiring, I'd want at least one more actual talented player in that deal.

I'm liking Z/Varejao/19 much more than Rasho/Ford/17.

Why? Z is auditioning for the next phase of his career as a stadium statue, we already have a better Varejao in Jeff (IMHO), and you get a higher pick. If Anthony Parker is the chaser in this deal then ...:dance:

2minutes twowa
06-23-2008, 02:49 PM
I would take a 2nd rounder this year or future drafts. Just to unload the guy. Its to bad, cause I think we have all seen what JT is capable of, but every year something in his head ticks and it starts down hill.

I know what you mean. At the beginning of this past season, he was actually playing at an all-star level. Creating his own shot and shots for others. He had a coach who believed in him and gave him the assurance that he was his guy, then poof. He's not happy, doesn't care about the team and has a "sore knee" thats keeps him out the rest of the season. Loads of talent, but he's just a pathetic little............:coach::jamaaltinsley:

Putnam
06-23-2008, 02:49 PM
I am just thinking out loud here, (I'm sure if JO and JT are both gone before the season starts there will be a ful scale discussion about this topic) but my question - if both are gone will fans, both die-hard and casual believe the era of bad feeling is over (or the bad egg era is over) will people jump back on.


Not automatically.

Daniels and Williams are still on the team. I believe Williams can be redeemed, but as of right now he's still just the guy who harbors murderers. I'm not sure if Daniels can ever be seen as a good guy.

The casual fans aren't necessarily going to know about these trades unless PS&E does a good job of promoting the idea that a fresh wind is blowing through Conseco. You can just imagine that when TV announces Tinsley's departure, they'll show file clips of Club Rio and 8 Seconds. That would just remind people of the "bad feeling" without sending the signal that the era is over.

I think PS&E would still have to sell the message very aggressively. They are taking some good steps already, but more is needed.

Personally, Tinsley and Harrison gone will be enough for me, if we replace them with youth and speed.

Again, personally, I don't have to see the wins first. I'm ready to believe in the future.

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 02:53 PM
No, UB. It is not human nature to jump back on. Once people sour to an experience and move on to another interest you've got a good chance that you've lost them for a very long time no matter what you do.

I've worked quite a few jobs in the entertainment industry where these shifts in popularity are tracked and man the stats are really frightening. The American public is extremely fickle when it comes to this kind of thing. The most important concept to keep in mind is that fans are not actually reducing their attention or spending, what they are doing is shifting their attention and spending elsewhere. In the case of the Pacers, the fans that have left are doing something else with their money and it will take a very big event to get them to come back.

Think of the Pacers like an ex-girlfriend that cheated on her boyfriend. It's probably easier to get a new boyfriend than it is to convince the old boyfriend to dump his new girl and take you back.

SO - what that means is that the fan base must be rebuilt from scratch. In order to do that, you need to improve the game environment, win games, and get good headlines for a couple of playoff years.

Next regular season may be worse than this one in terms of attendance nomatter who is on the team.

It will take quite a while.

Slick Pinkham
06-23-2008, 03:00 PM
If Parker wants to go back to Europe, he could still be the throw-in and that would be an instant salary dump for us-- make the trade, give him a token buyout, and "poof" he's gone.

:signit:

Putnam
06-23-2008, 03:00 PM
The most important concept to keep in mind is that fans are not actually reducing their attention or spending, what they are doing is shifting their attention and spending elsewhere.


The elsewhere is in Shelbyville:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ZPPRMghAMhSOlM:http://www.montbleuresort.com/images/press/img_section/large/Casino%2520%26%2520Sports%2520Book/MontBleu%2520Casino%25202.jpg

I'm not saying the two new local casinos caused last season's decline. I'm agreeing with Los Angeles and suggesting that the thousands of customers and millions of dollars that are going to be dumped there will diminish the pool of patrons and money for the Pacers to draw from. It is going to be tough.

NapTonius Monk
06-23-2008, 03:01 PM
If we're going to trade JO to get TJ, we should get rid of JT before he pulls an OJ.

CLEVER ;)

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 03:05 PM
No, UB. It is not human nature to jump back on. Once people sour to an experience and move on to another interest you've got a good chance that you've lost them for a very long time no matter what you do.

I've worked quite a few jobs in the entertainment industry where these shifts in popularity are tracked and man the stats are really frightening. The American public is extremely fickle when it comes to this kind of thing. The most important concept to keep in mind is that fans are not actually reducing their attention or spending, what they are doing is shifting their attention and spending elsewhere. In the case of the Pacers, the fans that have left are doing something else with their money and it will take a very big event to get them to come back.

Think of the Pacers like an ex-girlfriend that cheated on her boyfriend. It's probably easier to get a new boyfriend than it is to convince the old boyfriend to dump his new girl and take you back.

SO - what that means is that the fan base must be rebuilt from scratch. In order to do that, you need to improve the game environment, win games, and get good headlines for a couple of playoff years.

Next regular season may be worse than this one in terms of attendance nomatter who is on the team.

It will take quite a while.


Interesting take.

Shade
06-23-2008, 03:16 PM
If we're going to trade JO to get TJ, we should get rid of JT before he pulls an OJ.

Nice job. :)

Stupid Flanders. :grumble:

Speed
06-23-2008, 03:28 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9177

O'Neal for Ford a Win-Win

By: Joel Brigham

As is customary in the days leading up to an NBA Draft, the trade rumors are really starting circulate. This year's first big rumor centers around the sending Jermaine O'Neal to the Toronto Raptors in exchange for T.J. Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and possibly Toronto's 17<SUP>th</SUP> pick in this Thursday's draft.

Why This Works for the Pacers

Giving away the team's franchise player over the last decade isn't going to be an easy deal to swallow for Pacers fans, but Indy clearly is ready for rebuilding and JO's giant contract ($44 million over the next two seasons) isn't going to make that easy. Nesterovic is an $8 million expiring contract, perhaps giving the team some flexibility in the upcoming years when it comes to the free agent market.

More importantly, however, it finally gives the Pacers a credible point guard to replace Jamaal Tinsley, who has been terribly unreliable and inconsistent in recent years with the Pacers. Ford wants to get out of the competition with Jose Calderon in Canada and find a place where he can start. Indy certainly would be a fabulous opportunity for him. He'd be on a relatively young team that will struggle, but at least he'll get his playing time.

Getting a point guard in trade could be key for this move since it's looking more and more like there will be no point guards left for the Pacers to take when they select 11<SUP>th</SUP> this Thursday. With four point guards likely going in the top 10 selections, it doesn't seem like they will get the guy they want. Ford is a more certain commodity, anyway. Not only that, but two top-20 draft picks is always something to be excited about.

Why This Works for the Raptors

Raps GM Bryan Colangelo can get something of substantial value for the disgruntled Ford, who probably would only be cancerous if he remains on the roster without getting what he feels is his due in terms of minutes.

Even though O'Neal has been injured a lot the last couple of season (he played only 42 games in 2007-2008), he still holds a ton of value when healthy, and it's unlikely the Raptors could cash Ford out for any bigger a name. With all the wheeling and dealing that went down last season, O'Neal is one of the few superstars still actually on the trading block.

The Raptors would be silly not to pair him up with Chris Bosh and see if that doesn't push them over the hump in an improving Eastern Conference. Danny Ainge proved last year that gambles on star players can pay off. It would require a hefty financial investment by Toronto to pull this off, but it also could make them one of the favorites in the East if JO is healthy.

The move certainly doesn't make either team significantly worse, making the relative "gamble" for both organizations one worth investigating very seriously.

Kegboy
06-23-2008, 03:29 PM
Does anybody remember the season opener a few yrs back vs the Bucks? TJ Ford was flat out amazing that game. If he's still on that level I'd love to have him.

That's what I always think of when Ford comes up. It was his first game as a rookie, and after the game I said, "Should I be concerned he looked better against the Pacers than he had 8 months earlier against Purdue?"

MyFavMartin
06-23-2008, 03:32 PM
Wasn't Tinsley good too once?

Los Angeles
06-23-2008, 03:37 PM
Wasn't Tinsley good too once?

Ironically, it was the season opener. This season. :suicide:

MyFavMartin
06-23-2008, 03:41 PM
Ironically, it was the season opener. This season. :suicide:

Tinsley looked good his rookie year including a triple double against Jordan's Wizards, right?

And too think it's been down hill since... :shudder:

CableKC
06-23-2008, 03:50 PM
After going through only about 5 pages of this thread, I have a few thoughts and questions for most of you:

1 ) For all those that don't want Augustin for one reason or another......are you concerned about getting the NBA ready version of him ( that he is most compared to ) that not only is as short as he is but has injury concerns and a huge contract attached to him?

2 ) Much like how the Raptors COULD be using this to put pressure on the Suns to make a deal with them....assuming that there is some validity to the JO to Cavs rumors....does anyone else think that this could be a way for TPTB to put pressure on the Cavs to accept a deal involving JO for Varajeo/Z/19 ( instead of the rumored Varajeo/Wally/19 pick )?

3 ) Is TPTB so sure that they will move Tinsley and his 3 year / $21 mil contract that they would be willing to take on another PG that is potentially as injured and as great of a defensive liability? This is the one thing that has not been discussed here or any other thread......unless there is some buyout in place....I find it very difficult to believe that Tinsley can easily be moved in the offseason.

4 ) If this Toronto trade were to go through.....here's a quick look at the financial situation IF JONeal is moved to Toronto while receiving Moon/Baston and the 17th pick as filler:

2008-2009 season

Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
- Harrison
- Kareem
- Flip

Guaranteed Contracts for the 2008-2009 season
- Granger
- Ike
- Tinsley
- Foster
- Marquis
- Dunleavy
- Shawne
- Graham
- Diener
- Murphy
- Ford ( from Toronto )
- Rasho ( from Toronto )
- Baston / Moon ( from Toronto )

Expiring Contract AFTER the 2008-2009 season
- Foster ( Expiring )
- Marquis ( Expiring )
- Rasho ( Expiring from Toronto )
- Baston / Moon ( Expiring from Toronto )
- About $20-22 mil in 2008-2009 Expiring Contracts.

Total Guaranteed Salary for 2008-2009 for 13 players ( does not including signing of 2008-2009 Draft picks )
- $64.17 mil ( with Moon ) or $65.43 mil ( with Baston )

2009-2010 season

Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
- Granger ( Qualifying Offer )
- Ike ( Qualifying Offer )
- Marquis ( Team Option )

Guaranteed Contracts for 2009-2010
- Tinsley
- Dunleavy
- Shawne
- Diener
- Murphy
- Ford ( from Toronto )
- 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 11th pick
- 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 17th pick

Total Guaranteed Salary for 2009-2010 for 8 players
- $40.96 mil + whatever is owed to the 2008 11th and 17th picks

Based on the assumption that Tinsley won't be moved ( or we get back a player with a similar Contract with some unknown trade ), our Salary cap for the 2009-2010 season would be about $41 mil...which should be enough breathing room for us to not only resign Granger....which is a likely imperative....and Ike ( if there is a need to do so ) but to also give us some options to sign some Free Agents to continue the rebuilding/retooling process to fix whatever holes we need filling, allow us to get involved in some 3rd Team trades and take care of whatever future resigning that we need for the 2010-2011 season ( as in Shawne ).

Of course...I could be off on some of my Salary calculations.....but you can see that moving JONeal to Toronto would allow us some financial flexibility for the future ( most notably resigning Granger ) while allowing us to continue ( as Seth suggests ) our 2 year rebuilding/retooling plan for the future.

5 ) If I had a choice between Ford/Rasho/17 and the Varajeo/Z/19 trade....I would want the Varajeo/Z/19 pick. If I were forced to go with a very small PG that can run the point...I would much rather have Augustin and his smaller contract, a very solid Frontcourt that can help with the Offensive Rebounds ( which is VERY important given the sheer # of FGA that we take and miss ) while getting another younger version of Foster for the future and a True Center that is not a complete Offensive liability.

Interestingly enough......IF the Varajeo/Z/19th pick was an option ( which is my preferable choice )......in the 2009-2010 season....we would have about $43 mil in guaranteed contracts owed ( not including whatever is owed to the 11th and 19th picks ) to resign Granger, Ike ( who I doubt we resign ) and Varajeo. Having about $21 mil in Salary cap space to resign players should IMHO be enough to resign Granger and Varajeo.

MyFavMartin
06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
doesn't Z have feet issues?

I'd more like a youth movement.

grace
06-23-2008, 04:02 PM
I skipped to the end of the thread so maybe someone has already broght this up. Isn't :wells: the one that said trading to get Artest again wasn't such a bad idea?

Personally, I think this is all just a gimick to get Kegboy out of his apathetic malaise where the Pacers are concerned.

Unclebuck
06-23-2008, 04:03 PM
The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks

count55
06-23-2008, 04:23 PM
After going through only about 5 pages of this thread, I have a few thoughts and questions for most of you:

1 ) For all those that don't want Augustin for one reason or another......are you concerned about getting the NBA ready version of him ( that he is most compared to ) that not only is as short as he is but has injury concerns and a huge contract attached to him?

I'm fine with Augustin, but I would go with Ford (including his injury risk) because he's a more proven commodity in terms of being able to play in the NBA. As far as the contract and injury history goes, I don't compare it to Augustin, rather I compare it to JO's. Ford's "HUGE" contract is only $1.8mm more over three years than JO's is in the final year of his contract.


2 ) Much like how the Raptors COULD be using this to put pressure on the Suns to make a deal with them....assuming that there is some validity to the JO to Cavs rumors....does anyone else think that this could be a way for TPTB to put pressure on the Cavs to accept a deal involving JO for Varajeo/Z/19 ( instead of the rumored Varajeo/Wally/19 pick )?

I think it's likely that the leaks are coming because FO's are leaky places, and there's too much juice for this to be quiet. That being said, I think TPTB would be relatively pleased to see this kind of price be laid out for JO and could be hoping for better offers. Cleveland could be one of those teams if, as has been rumored, they've been flirting with us, but offering packages that include Wally/Snow.


3 ) Is TPTB so sure that they will move Tinsley and his 3 year / $21 mil contract that they would be willing to take on another PG that is potentially as injured and as great of a defensive liability? This is the one thing that has not been discussed here or any other thread......unless there is some buyout in place....I find it very difficult to believe that Tinsley can easily be moved in the offseason.

I believe that Tinsley is not being factored into any plans whatsoever for TPTB regarding who they get. They know they owe him $21 mil, and I'm sure they consider that "gone money". I expect them to exhaust every possibility to deal him for what will probably end up being an equal contract, and, failing that, the may buy him out (though I don't necessarily think that is prudent). All that said, I do not believe they consider him in the least to be in the mix at the point guard position. This deal would bring back a veteran PG and a second 1st round pick, both prime targets of TPTB. Is there risk involved with Ford? Yes, but probably no less than with JO, and it breaks up the finances rather nicely.


4 ) If this Toronto trade were to go through.....here's a quick look at the financial situation IF JONeal is moved to Toronto while receiving Moon/Baston and the 17th pick as filler:

2008-2009 season

Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
- Harrison
- Kareem
- Flip

Guaranteed Contracts for the 2008-2009 season
- Granger
- Ike
- Tinsley
- Foster
- Marquis
- Dunleavy
- Shawne
- Graham
- Diener
- Murphy
- Ford ( from Toronto )
- Rasho ( from Toronto )
- Baston / Moon ( from Toronto )

Expiring Contract AFTER the 2008-2009 season
- Foster ( Expiring )
- Marquis ( Expiring )
- Rasho ( Expiring from Toronto )
- Baston / Moon ( Expiring from Toronto )
- About $20-22 mil in 2008-2009 Expiring Contracts.

Total Guaranteed Salary for 2008-2009 for 13 players ( does not including signing of 2008-2009 Draft picks )
- $64.17 mil ( with Moon ) or $65.43 mil ( with Baston )

2009-2010 season

Players to resign/extend for one reason or another
- Granger ( Qualifying Offer )
- Ike ( Qualifying Offer )
- Marquis ( Team Option )

Guaranteed Contracts for 2009-2010
- Tinsley
- Dunleavy
- Shawne
- Diener
- Murphy
- Ford ( from Toronto )
- 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 11th pick
- 2009-2010 Salary owed to the 2008 17th pick

Total Guaranteed Salary for 2009-2010 for 8 players
- $40.96 mil + whatever is owed to the 2008 11th and 17th picks

Based on the assumption that Tinsley won't be moved ( or we get back a player with a similar Contract with some unknown trade ), our Salary cap for the 2009-2010 season would be about $41 mil...which should be enough breathing room for us to not only resign Granger....which is a likely imperative....and Ike ( if there is a need to do so ) but to also give us some options to sign some Free Agents to continue the rebuilding/retooling process to fix whatever holes we need filling, allow us to get involved in some 3rd Team trades and take care of whatever future resigning that we need for the 2010-2011 season ( as in Shawne ).

Of course...I could be off on some of my Salary calculations.....but you can see that moving JONeal to Toronto would allow us some financial flexibility for the future ( most notably resigning Granger ) while allowing us to continue ( as Seth suggests ) our 2 year rebuilding/retooling plan for the future.

5 ) If I had a choice between Ford/Rasho/17 and the Varajeo/Z/19 trade....I would want the Varajeo/Z/19 pick. If I were forced to go with a very small PG that can run the point...I would much rather have Augustin and his smaller contract, a very solid Frontcourt that can help with the Offensive Rebounds ( which is VERY important given the sheer # of FGA that we take and miss ) while getting another younger version of Foster for the future and a True Center that is not a complete Offensive liability.

Interestingly enough......IF the Varajeo/Z/19th pick was an option ( which is my preferable choice )......in the 2009-2010 season....we would have about $43 mil in guaranteed contracts owed ( not including whatever is owed to the 11th and 19th picks ) to resign Granger, Ike ( who I doubt we resign ) and Varajeo. Having about $21 mil in Salary cap space to resign players should IMHO be enough to resign Granger and Varajeo.

The Varajeo/Z/19 would actually put us at about $50mm in guaranteed salaries in 2009-2010, not $43million. It' s not a huge difference, but in that season, the Toronto deal brings us $8.3mm (Ford), while Z & Sideshow Bob combine for about $17.8mm in the Cleveland deal. The $7 mm is more than a full MLE, so it could mean a player.

On the whole, I don't like the Cleveland deal as well as the Toronto deal because I believe the utility and potential of Ford is much better than Z & Varejao...enough to make up for the risk involved. Also, Ford's 3yr contract is only $2.4mm more than Z's 2yr contract.

I would also love to see us take a big (Speights, Ajinca) at #11, then come back and hedge our bets with Chalmers at #17.

And, quite frankly, for filler, I like Nesterovic better than Z as a fit for the franchise next season. Neither is a long-term solution, but Rasho is serviceable and can play a little D. You have to ask if Z would be far too plodding to get a lot of burn in JOB's system, which, like it or not, will dictate next season.

I definitely like the Toronto Ford/Rasho/17 much better than anything I've heard from Cleveland.

edc
06-23-2008, 04:28 PM
The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks

so are you open to trade Jermaine to Ron Ron? :D

Pacemaker
06-23-2008, 04:38 PM
This rumor is posted in espn.com !!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3457325

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 04:43 PM
The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks

So you're interested in ....

http://www.hotstovenewyork.com/images/zach_randolph.jpg

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 04:43 PM
This rumor is posted in espn.com !!!!! http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3457325

So its dead.

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 04:48 PM
So its dead.

Stick a fork in it.

S recap
06-23-2008, 04:51 PM
http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10001871

Can anybody find any other related stories?

I'm still not 100% sold on this deal.

count55
06-23-2008, 04:52 PM
Stick a fork in it.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. :p

Young
06-23-2008, 04:53 PM
Why oh why do the Pacers do this trade?

I mean, why do people act like we HAVE to get rid of Jermaine? We don't. Sure it could be nice for both the Pacers and Jermaine. Maybe Larry doesn't like Jermaine but that doesn't mean you can make a bad trade.

Look this trade does NOT help our salary situation. Jermaine's contract runs two more years. That isn't very long at all.

In this particular trade we are going to be left with TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley as our point guards? That is a lot of money for two average NBA point guards.

I do really like Ford but between his contract, lack of defense, injury concern, and the fact that we still have Jamaal (unless he is traded somehow or bought out) that is a bad trade.

We are better off to just draft DJ Augistin. I think that DJ can be ATLEAST as good as TJ is. Plus he is much cheaper so in the event that we can't trade Jamaal or don't buy him out at least we aren't paying a backup point guard 6+ million a year.

I'm not against trading Jermaine but this just isn't the right deal at all. If we are able to get rid of Jamaal, maybe this Toronto trade wouldn't be so bad depending on exactly who we get. But as of right now I don't like it one bit.

count55
06-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Why oh why do the Pacers do this trade?

I mean, why do people act like we HAVE to get rid of Jermaine? We don't. Sure it could be nice for both the Pacers and Jermaine. Maybe Larry doesn't like Jermaine but that doesn't mean you can make a bad trade.

Look this trade does NOT help our salary situation. Jermaine's contract runs two more years. That isn't very long at all.

In this particular trade we are going to be left with TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley as our point guards? That is a lot of money for two average NBA point guards.

I do really like Ford but between his contract, lack of defense, injury concern, and the fact that we still have Jamaal (unless he is traded somehow or bought out) that is a bad trade.

We are better off to just draft DJ Augistin. I think that DJ can be ATLEAST as good as TJ is. Plus he is much cheaper so in the event that we can't trade Jamaal or don't buy him out at least we aren't paying a backup point guard 6+ million a year.

I'm not against trading Jermaine but this just isn't the right deal at all. If we are able to get rid of Jamaal, maybe this Toronto trade wouldn't be so bad depending on exactly who we get. But as of right now I don't like it one bit.

Tinsley is a completely separate situation. I'm sure they're looking at moving him, but probably recognize that this is spent money.

This trade does help our salary situation. If it's done with minimal filler (consummated later this summer), it would allow us to have 15 players on the roster and stay under the likely luxury tax threshhold.

If the fillers are expirings, like Moon or Baston, then if the team lets Rasho and the filler walk at the end of next season, we'd have $12-13 million less in contracts in 2009-2010.

Yes, we would be signed on for $8.3 mm on Ford in 2010-2011, which would bump our guaranteed contracts that year, we have significant room (at this point).

Again, I don't think they're going to try to attach Droopy to any JO deal. While I agree that we don't have to move JO, this is good value for him, particularly if Ford stays healthy.

CableKC
06-23-2008, 05:04 PM
The last player in the NBA I want is Z - no thanks
Is Z's slowness that bad that he couldn't fit into the offense/defense in some way?

Getting Z and Varajeo would mean that we would significantly improve our offensive rebounding....something that I think is as important in the type of "shoot and likely miss as many shots as we can" offense. The more offensive rebounders we have on the floor...the better chance we have at getting 2nd chance opportunities when we miss the many FGs that we attempt.

If anything....having a frontcourt of Murphy/Foster/Z/Varajeo would allow us some flexibility to spread out the # of minutes evenly among the 4 of them at the PF/C rotation while allowing us to matchup well against other teams.

As much of a benefit there is to getting a true PG that can properly run the show like Ford.....I can see as much benefit to have a very solid Frontcourt if not more durable one that completely dominates on the offensive rebounding end.

CableKC
06-23-2008, 05:09 PM
The Varajeo/Z/19 would actually put us at about $50mm in guaranteed salaries in 2009-2010, not $43million. It' s not a huge difference, but in that season, the Toronto deal brings us $8.3mm (Ford), while Z & Sideshow Bob combine for about $17.8mm in the Cleveland deal. The $7 mm is more than a full MLE, so it could mean a player.
Varajeo has a Player option in the 2009-2010 season....I'm going under the assumption that he will likely opt out since he wasn't too happy about being matched by the Cavs when he became a Restricted FA in the 2007-2008 season. My hope is that we resign him...worse comes to worse....he just becomes another Expiring Contract after the 2009-2010 season if we can't resign him.

PR07
06-23-2008, 05:13 PM
This isn't the best trade for JO, but I'd be okay with it.

I highly doubt the Pacers would still draft DJ Augustin though. What's the point in having 2 diminutive PG's? More than likely, they'd take Speights or Anthony Randolph at #11, and Chalmers at #17.

ABADays
06-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Too slow on the draw ABADays! I couldn't let that one slip by when I saw it ;)

It's the time difference I tell ya.

tadscout
06-23-2008, 05:24 PM
So its dead.

DW isn't here anymore...

I think Larry wouldn't give a :censored: if it's leaked... if he wants to get a deal done he will keep working on it...

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 05:36 PM
If anything....having a frontcourt of Murphy/Foster/Z/Varajeo would allow us some flexibility to spread out the # of minutes evenly among the 4 of them at the PF/C rotation while allowing us to matchup well against other teams.

4? Isn't Ike a Pacer?

The thing about this trade is Ike is going into his 4th year in the NBA which is a make or break year for Ike, so where does Ike fit into your scenario?

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 05:39 PM
This isn't the best trade for JO, but I'd be okay with it.

I highly doubt the Pacers would still draft DJ Augustin though. What's the point in having 2 diminutive PG's? More than likely, they'd take Speights or Anthony Randolph at #11, and Chalmers at #17.

With Ford's new mock draft, it could be reversed with Chalmers at 11 and Speights at 17.

CableKC
06-23-2008, 06:04 PM
4? Isn't Ike a Pacer?

The thing about this trade is Ike is going into his 4th year in the NBA which is a make or break year for Ike, so where does Ike fit into your scenario?
Ike doesn't fit into my scenario....I just don't think that he will be a part of the future of the Pacers cuz he doesn't fit into JO'Bs offense ( much less defense ) and will likely be shopped ( if he hasn't already been ) or let to go on the FA market in the 2009-2010 season.

As for the 4th year being his "make or break year"....wasn't the same said about his 3rd year especially with JONeal sitting out for a third of the season?

aero
06-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Just about everyone i know is sick of Jermaine O'Neal here in indy, the guy can not stay healthy at all. If we could pick up another draft pick for this years draft, a decent player in Ford....and free up some much needed cap space. I would do it without a question.

Bball
06-23-2008, 06:19 PM
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop:

IOW- JO coming on the news and telling how he's decided to have some type of knee surgery or talk about taking a break from his rehab because his knee is bothering him and there's more important things in life than basketball....

Does anyone want to put odds on that or odds on him reiterating he's not a center?

-Bball

BlueNGold
06-23-2008, 06:26 PM
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop:

IOW- JO coming on the news and telling how he's decided to have some type of knee surgery or talk about taking a break from his rehab because his knee is bothering him and there's more important things in life than basketball....

Does anyone want to put odds on that or odds on him reiterating he's not a center?

-Bball

How do you live like this?...;)

I don't know if I'm more fearful of TJ Ford's health or JO's. The only good thing I see about that trade is that more than 1/2 of our payroll would be tied to relatively healthy players.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-23-2008, 06:29 PM
yaaaaaaaaay! Hey Bird why not just trade JO for kwame brown and a future draft pick and cash? Lets just give him away!

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 06:48 PM
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop:

IOW- JO coming on the news and telling how he's decided to have some type of knee surgery or talk about taking a break from his rehab because his knee is bothering him and there's more important things in life than basketball....

Does anyone want to put odds on that or odds on him reiterating he's not a center? If it's not someplace he wants to go, he will definately do it.

-Bball

Pass, not with JO's history.

will567
06-23-2008, 06:52 PM
I have mixed feeling about this deal but it could allow the pacers to do future deals with all the expiring deals we would have! I also think that Kosta Koufos is the number 11 pick if this trade happens. I like him as the pick because he is only 19 and 7-1 265. Per espn "Skilled big man with excellent size, length and good body. Has a 7-foot-4 inch wingspan. Has great strength and good, but not great athleticism for his size. Has offensive skills both inside and out. Nice moves and footwork in the paint. Excellent midrange shooter with very consistent range out to 18 feet. Has 3-point range as well, but is much more streaky from there. He lacks the explosiveness to be an elite shot-blocker, but his timing is good. Decent rebounder. Good passer out of double-teams. Is pretty mobile for a big man. Needs polish and experience. Can be a disinterested defender at times. Lacks aggressiveness at times. Lacks lateral quickness. Can sometimes lose his confidence and then his game falls apart. Needs to be able to handle contact in the paint better." I see more upside to his game plus he is so young. The reports are he has shown great improvement in his work outs. I also think the OSU team was not nearly the same team guard wise as last year so he did not shine this year. I think he could be a good player! I also see Robin Lopez, Darrell Arthur or Roy Hibbert as the 17th pick. Bird has always like size and if they get 2 picks they are going big.

BoomBaby31
06-23-2008, 06:52 PM
Lets do it: Ford would vie for a starting spot with our number 11 pick D.J Augustine... We'll Replace JO with the suprise of the draft Marreese Speights at the number 17 spot and rid some cap in the meantime. So cross your fingers.

Justin Tyme
06-23-2008, 07:05 PM
yaaaaaaaaay! Hey Bird why not just trade JO for kwame brown and a future draft pick and cash? Lets just give him away!



How much cash?:D

You think JO is worth so much try checking out some Raptor boards! I get the feeling they don't think much of or want the Pacers over the hill washed up injury riddened piece of junk. That's putting it pretty politely.

Ford to them is like JO is to many over here, best thing since velco. Ford's injury is nothing, and he is an 16 point 8 assit player. Sound familiar?

The ones that might consider JO in a trade aren't willing to give the #17 pick. W/o the 17 pick this trade is going nowhere anyway.

Plax80
06-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Why oh why do the Pacers do this trade?

I mean, why do people act like we HAVE to get rid of Jermaine? We don't. Sure it could be nice for both the Pacers and Jermaine. Maybe Larry doesn't like Jermaine but that doesn't mean you can make a bad trade.

Look this trade does NOT help our salary situation. Jermaine's contract runs two more years. That isn't very long at all.

In this particular trade we are going to be left with TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley as our point guards? That is a lot of money for two average NBA point guards.

I do really like Ford but between his contract, lack of defense, injury concern, and the fact that we still have Jamaal (unless he is traded somehow or bought out) that is a bad trade.

We are better off to just draft DJ Augistin. I think that DJ can be ATLEAST as good as TJ is. Plus he is much cheaper so in the event that we can't trade Jamaal or don't buy him out at least we aren't paying a backup point guard 6+ million a year.

I'm not against trading Jermaine but this just isn't the right deal at all. If we are able to get rid of Jamaal, maybe this Toronto trade wouldn't be so bad depending on exactly who we get. But as of right now I don't like it one bit.

I tend to agree unless they have such a high grade on whomever they would be after at 17 that it tips the scale.

I think Augistin at 11 is the key to JO's future. If we are able to get him than a Ford trade makes no sense at all. What are we going to do with TJ, DJ, TD and JT?? 4 PGs that cost something close to $20mm per long term that produce at level below the average for the posiiton in the league.....at least JO's ha sthe potential to make us a strong interior team on both ends of teh floor ..........something we have none of without him.

I've always said that you have to get one of two players in any JO trade........a potential top 10 PG or PF/C. Ford clearly does not qualify as that and unless you believe that the 17th pick can produce that player than we would be left with nothing inside either now or in the forseeable future. Oden is still three or four years away from FA.

I believe you reestablish JO's value early on next year. We've already seen the impact that KG and Gasol had on their teams and so did everyone else.

My other thought about all of this centers on Brook Lopez. Maybe Lopez is Larry's guy and he believes he will drop to him at 11............and if the Bobcats pass on him he likely will.

Then maybe Ford and #17 and Lopez for JO makes much more sense.

I don't know, but I've always felt that quality matters much more than quantity in any NBA trade. We may have a nice roster 10-15 but who really cares about that.

We still don't know if ike Diogu can play major minutes partly because he's always injured and partly because he can't get consistent minutes. If you throw Lopez and a Koufas and a Rasho into the mix......that gets even worse. If its Brandon Rush your after than that hurts Shawne's devolpment.

Start building from the top down...........look at Granger, Dun and Shawne and see the makings of 3/5 of a solid playoff lineup. Realize the missing pieces are a Deron Williams and Greg Oden and figure out how to move your remaining pieces to acquire one or both of those type of players...........extracting value on 3 or 4 for 1 trades to "fill roles" is what keeps teams in the lower middle of the league for decades at a time.......winning games in april that don't matter with each win taking more balls from the bin.

If DJ can potentially be a Chris Paul type.....than I'm all over the selection of him at 11........if he's Jameer Nelson than I have to think about what else may be out there. Take Koufas if he's potentially a Yao or Smits.......if he's Nenad Kristic in disguise.......than move on.

Memphis rumored discussions with Ny on a David lee for #5 and Brian cardinal leave me wondering why Larry Legend loves this draft so much. If Memphis can't find a player at 5 to help them more than David Lee......than how good could this draft possibly be ?? And NY has been rumored for weeks to be shopping its pick at #6 to anyoone willing to assume a bad contract ??

So if there arent 5 or 6 players worth drafting, how can Lb be so excited about whomever he gets at 17 or 19 ??

Keep JO and trade him to a contender later.

Plax80
06-23-2008, 07:51 PM
It just so happens that NBA TV is sshowing the 96 draft right now.......

7. clips- Lo Wright
8. Nets- Kerry Kittles
9. Dal- Samaki walker
10. Ind- Erick dampier
11. GS- Todd Fuller
12- Clev- Vitaly Potopenko


13- LAL thru Char- kobe Bryant
14- Sac- predrag stojakovic
15- Phx- Steve Nash

And Hubie and pitino are in shock that Sac took Peja instead of John Wallace.

Find the superstar player in the draft and you win........fill a need with a guy who projects to be average at best and you LOOOSSSSEEEE.

Bball
06-23-2008, 07:52 PM
I believe you reestablish JO's value early on next year.


Isn't that what we've been doing only to see JO's value plummet deeper and deeper?


We've already seen the impact that KG and Gasol had on their teams and so did everyone else.

Which has what to do with JO?

-Bball

duke dynamite
06-23-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this, but T.J. Ford wears the #11. Now for all you people who bought discounted Tinsley jerseys at the end of the season can take the TINSLEY name off the back and you'll have yourself a T.J. Ford jersey!

Mr. Sobchak
06-23-2008, 08:06 PM
and so it ends...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ahu1q8EbKX9L8EfgLT_7W0Q5nYcB?slug=aw-tradeoff062308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns




Source: Toronto-Indiana deal off

Talks between the Toronto Raptors and Indiana Pacers about a trade that would have included Jermaine O’Neal and T.J. Ford fell apart on Monday afternoon, a league executive with knowledge of the negotiations said.

For the past two days, Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo had been pushing the idea of sending Ford, Rasho Nesterovic and the No. 17 pick in Thursday’s draft for O’Neal. For a few hours on Monday, there was a sense that the deal was close, but ultimately concerns over the damaged state of O’Neal and Ford were too much to consummate the trade.

The Pacers were concerned about Ford’s future with his past neck injuries, but were willing to start rebuilding without O’Neal and the $44 million owed him over the next two years. O’Neal played just 42 games a year ago, because of a left knee injury.

The trade would have given Indiana the 11th and 17th picks in the draft, allowing Indiana to take a point guard and a forward. The Raptors have been one of the league’s most active teams in trying to move up in the draft, and they’ve made no secret about their desire to move Ford and make restricted free agent Jose Calderon the point guard of the future.

count55
06-23-2008, 08:10 PM
Between this and the Bucher report, the word "****" comes to mind.

Trader Joe
06-23-2008, 08:13 PM
I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.

duke dynamite
06-23-2008, 08:16 PM
Poop. I just changed my avatar...

rock747
06-23-2008, 08:21 PM
dissapointing but not surprising... who knows though it could be back on tommorow.

count55
06-23-2008, 08:22 PM
Anybody else concerned that this may have been the high water mark for JO trade value?

YoSoyIndy
06-23-2008, 08:26 PM
If DJ can potentially be a Chris Paul type.....than I'm all over the selection of him at 11........if he's Jameer Nelson than I have to think about what else may be out there. Take Koufas if he's potentially a Yao or Smits.......if he's Nenad Kristic in disguise.......than move on.

I completely agree. If we can get Chris Paul and Yao Ming, we should get them. Also, let's try to get a good 2nd rounder... you know, like G-Arenas or Antonio.

duke dynamite
06-23-2008, 08:42 PM
ESPN or Fox Sports hasn't reported on this change yet, and I don't trust Yahoo! News anyway.

Who exactly are these "sources"?

Hicks
06-23-2008, 08:43 PM
Bummer.

CableKC
06-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Anybody else concerned that this may have been the high water mark for JO trade value?
Nope.....right now...this is the best that I can expect for him.

IMHO....the going rate for an All-Star caliber player was set by the KG, Iverson and Gasol ( to a certain extent ) trades over the last couple of years. The going rate for any All-Star is a single ( at most multiple ) 1st round pick ( this year or next years ), some prospect(s) and some Expiring Contract....basically your standard "rebuilding" trade that the TWolves, Sixers and Grizzlies made.

In this case...we didn't get that ( since Ford has injury concerns and a huge contract )....JONeal isn't a real All-Star anymore and has some serious injury concerns. But if the deal went through.....we could have gotten a 1st round pick, a player with comprable injury concerns and a decent sized Expiring Contract....which I could come to tolerate and accept going forward.

aceace
06-23-2008, 08:55 PM
My thoughts on this trade.. It was leaked to see how the media and fans from both sides would react and to let other teams interested in JO know that he may be off the market soon, so they needed to up their antes' and make their final offers.

I will go out on a line and say that if Toronto doesn't take him no one else will, too big a contract.

Kegboy
06-23-2008, 08:59 PM
Anybody else concerned that this may have been the high water mark for JO trade value?

:sadyes:

indygeezer
06-23-2008, 09:03 PM
I don't believe what I read on a Yahoo sports site or any other for that matter. I'll wait to see Well's disclaimor in tomorrow's IS. Then I will say, "See, I told you it was too early to believe this trade."

OTOH...if it were legit then I do not believe that it is dead, merely resting.

Plax80
06-23-2008, 09:16 PM
Isn't that what we've been doing only to see JO's value plummet deeper and deeper?



Which has what to do with JO?

-Bball

Agreed......so why trade him now ?

If you just want to dump him for an expiring deal........trade him for Marbury......who is probbaly a better player than TJ Ford......certainly has more upside...........and who comes off the books next year and keeps you from having to take Rasho.

The Knicks would likely swap picks with you in that deal as well.

I didn't say that I wouldn't trade him..........just not for TJ Ford unless you are convinced Ford's neck is not a problem.

Plax80
06-23-2008, 09:21 PM
I completely agree. If we can get Chris Paul and Yao Ming, we should get them. Also, let's try to get a good 2nd rounder... you know, like G-Arenas or Antonio.


My point is to scout for the best potential player long term and not draft to fill a need with a marginal player.

I'll almost guarantee that there will be three or four all star players drafted after #10.

In fact on our 60 win team....we had

Jo picked in the 20's
Artest picked at about 15
Brad Miller picked in round 2
Reggie picked at 11
tinsley picked at 27

Can Larry pick one of the All Stars ??

He's done well with Granger and Williams......so there is a bit of hope.

The Unknown
06-23-2008, 09:23 PM
People really have no idea just how talented T.J. Ford is. He's very capable of putting up 17 and 9.

D-BONE
06-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Anybody else concerned that this may have been the high water mark for JO trade value?

Thought did cross my mind. Over in the Chad Ford on 1070 thread, it was reported that Ford said regarding the JO to Toronto rumor that he thought the Pacers could do better. I wonder what he means by better? I found that remark surprising.

Kegboy
06-23-2008, 09:27 PM
He's done well with Granger and Williams......so there is a bit of hope.

You think he did well with Shawne when he left Rhondo on the board?

Plax80
06-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Anybody else concerned that this may have been the high water mark for JO trade value?


Maybe.

As others have said, the market for aging, expensive former all stars is an expiring deal, a first rd pick, and filler.

Next years draft is suppossed to be weaker than this one.......so even if a contender goes after him next Frebruary, they are trading a late first and something else.........but matbe it gives you the ability to see who that team takes this year and if that player and another first is enough compensation.

In this case you had to decide if Darrel Arthur or Javelle Mcgee or whomever at 17 is enough of a return to warrant trading him. Ford isn't much of an upgrade over Tinsley.

You aren't really saving any money since Ford and Rasho almost make as much between them as JO.

Plax80
06-23-2008, 09:45 PM
You think he did well with Shawne when he left Rhondo on the board?


Thats a tough question. For me on our team, I still like Williams' long term potential better than Rondo.

One of the reasons I wouldn't mind any JO trade is that I would like to see him get more minutes at PF as his body matures.

mrknowname
06-23-2008, 09:56 PM
You think he did well with Shawne when he left Rhondo on the board?

his teammates make him look better than he really is imo

bambam
06-23-2008, 10:43 PM
You think he did well with Shawne when he left Rhondo on the board?


Can you really grade Williams yet? Come on, he would of what been a senior? Give him a lil time. I guess that means Steve Nash would of been a bust after his first few seasons.

96-97 3pts, 2ast
97-98 9pts, 3ast

Did you see him becoming the league MVP?

eldubious
06-23-2008, 10:51 PM
I'm not sure if this deal is dead or another one isn't heating up. Bird is pretty sure they are getting a second 1st round pick. I wouldn't be overly excited or dissappointed about the Toronto deal. But, my thinking is couldn't the Pacers pull another 1st round pick without JO? I'm pretty sure Foster can get the Pacers another lst round pick. If the Pacers were to do the Toronto deal, I'm almost certain it would be Arthur at 11 and the best available guard at 17 whether it's Chalmers, Rush, or Augustin. Although, keep an eye on Ajinca, he is getting alot of buzz from teams.

BlueNGold
06-23-2008, 10:54 PM
his teammates make him look better than he really is imo

They probably do, but he had some great moments in that series. I had not watched much of him until the Lakers series and I came away pretty amazed at how good he is. He is not the prototypical PG, but he really can make plays and defends very well. He is also completely fearless particularly for a young player. BTW, we would not even be thinking of drafting a PG right now if we had him...

carpediem024
06-23-2008, 11:57 PM
Yeah Rondo wouldn't get 16 assists if he didn't have Pierce Allen and KG to pass to.

Infinite MAN_force
06-24-2008, 12:13 AM
2 ) Much like how the Raptors COULD be using this to put pressure on the Suns to make a deal with them....assuming that there is some validity to the JO to Cavs rumors....does anyone else think that this could be a way for TPTB to put pressure on the Cavs to accept a deal involving JO for Varajeo/Z/19 ( instead of the rumored Varajeo/Wally/19 pick )?


I would much much rather have wally's huge expiring contract than big Z. The guy is very old, a poor fit for our system, and his contract is two more years, as opposed to wally's one.

Varejo/wally/19 is the better deal.

JHcutt18
06-24-2008, 12:35 AM
If the Pacers were to do the Toronto deal, I'm almost certain it would be Arthur at 11 and the best available guard at 17 whether it's Chalmers, Rush, or Augustin.

I hope that you are right, I am a huge KU fan as well as a huge Pacers fan. If we were to get one Jayhawk I would be in heaven.....let alone two.

Kegboy
06-24-2008, 04:09 AM
Can you really grade Williams yet? Come on, he would of what been a senior? Give him a lil time. I guess that means Steve Nash would of been a bust after his first few seasons.

96-97 3pts, 2ast
97-98 9pts, 3ast

Did you see him becoming the league MVP?

No, but I actually saw him play worth a damn in college.

Pacers4Life
06-24-2008, 05:30 AM
count me in for this trade.
draft Speights and Rush respectively OR do anything in our power to finagle a high enough draft pick to get Bayless (speculatively the #4 pick...highly unlikely)

Justin Tyme
06-24-2008, 07:43 AM
Agreed......so why trade him now ?

If you just want to dump him for an expiring deal........trade him for Marbury......who is probbaly a better player than TJ Ford......certainly has more upside...........and who comes off the books next year and keeps you from having to take Rasho.

The Knicks would likely swap picks with you in that deal as well.

I didn't say that I wouldn't trade him..........just not for TJ Ford unless you are convinced Ford's neck is not a problem.

Why does Walsh want JO? Why does he want JO's 44 mil salary vs Starbury's 22 mil salary? At least with Starbury, you don't have to worry about him constantly being injured and not playing. It's not like Walsh isn't all too familiar with JO's problems.

Why would Walsh take on an extra 22 mil in salary and swap the 6th pick for the Pacers 11th pick? But if he has a hankering to do it, Bird had best jump on that deal, and smile all the way to the draft podium. Not to mention putting a smile on the Simons' faces by saving them 22 mil.

BoomBaby33
06-24-2008, 08:10 AM
LB - please do this deal. If anything else, it gives us fans a new ray of hope with 4 fresh faces. And to be honest, I have always liked TJ Ford (unfortunate injuries aside) and also Rasho for that matter. This would then give the Pacers a chance to trade Foster for maybe yet another first rounder (hes getting old and his back isnt going to hold up too much longer IMO).

With the 11th pick we can still take DJ Augustin and we can have a Texas 2 step PG tandem. Groom Augustin with the big man we take at 17.

We still keep our small nucleus together in DG, Shawne, and DunDun.

And the hugest thing here, we can now send Tinsley down White River on a raft.

I apologize if someone else has already echoed these sentiments. I didnt read all 10 pages.

Justin Tyme
06-24-2008, 08:11 AM
Ford isn't much of an upgrade over Tinsley.

You aren't really saving any money since Ford and Rasho almost make as much between them as JO.

Has Ford been a PR nightmare for Toronto? Was he when he was at Milwaukee? If not, he's a definate up grade over Tinsley. I know you are referring to Ford's playing, but you have to take in consideration Ford's intangibles too. Right now today, who wouldn't take Ford over Tinsley?

As far as your 2nd statement goes, since when is 8 mil not much of a savings? Not only do you put 8 mil back in the Simons pocket, but Rasho's expiring gives Bird 8 mil more for FA's.

Oh btw, Brad Miller was never a 2nd round pick. He was never drafted coming out of Purdue.

count55
06-24-2008, 08:15 AM
Has Ford been a PR nightmare for Toronto? Was he when he was at Milwaukee? If not, he's a definate up grade over Tinsley. I know you are referring to Ford's playing, but you have to take in consideration Ford's intangibles too. Right now today, who wouldn't take Ford over Tinsley?

As far as your 2nd statement goes, since when is 8 mil not much of a savings? Not only do you put 8 mil back in the Simons pocket, but Rasho's expiring gives Bird 8 mil more for FA's.

Oh btw, Brad Miller was never a 2nd round pick. He was never drafted coming out of Purdue.

He also wasn't on the 60-win team, but the following came to mind when I read it:

(the exchange from about the 10 second mark to the 16 second mark)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fO6LVE_P-A8&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fO6LVE_P-A8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Unclebuck
06-24-2008, 08:58 AM
It just so happens that NBA TV is sshowing the 96 draft right now.......

7. clips- Lo Wright
8. Nets- Kerry Kittles
9. Dal- Samaki walker
10. Ind- Erick dampier
11. GS- Todd Fuller
12- Clev- Vitaly Potopenko


13- LAL thru Char- kobe Bryant
14- Sac- predrag stojakovic
15- Phx- Steve Nash

And Hubie and pitino are in shock that Sac took Peja instead of John Wallace.

Find the superstar player in the draft and you win........fill a need with a guy who projects to be average at best and you LOOOSSSSEEEE.


I agree 100%. Let me add, something else though. Of your list of six - 7 through 12, only one of them is a non-big guy. Most mistakes are made when a team takes a big guy, the old addage that you can't teach height has ruined more franchises and costs more GM's their job than anything else.

On the trade that is being rumored. Mike Wells certainly didn't back off of the deal this morning, at least not yet. But if talks have broken off, I won't be heartbroken at all.