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Young
06-13-2004, 12:22 AM
You know atfirst I really wanted to see McGrady or Allen or Pierice here in Indiana but after giving it much thought that would not help us.

What Indiana has is a star, Jermaine O'Neal, and they should build around him.

I would like to see Artest gone because he has brooken the offense so many damn times. I hate the guy.

Yet its hard to get fair value for him but I would settle for less, probably.

Anyway, my point is, is that we don't need stars but we do need good players.

Heres a list:

- Jason Terry
- Matt Harpring
- Corey Maggette
- Mike Dunlevy
- Stephen Jackson
- Quentien Richardson
- Brent Barry
- Michael Reed [I wish]
- James Posey
- Mike Miller
- Cuttino Mobley
- Manu Ginobli [I would love to have him. I'd take him over Artest! Thats how much I hate Artest because I know Artest is better.]

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 12:28 AM
Without Ron Artest this team would have never won 61 games this year , 50 if we were lucky and I would say more like 45 , without Ron Artest we never make the ECF this year.

SO becareful for what you wish for ;)

If Ron had not came back so quickly from his surgery like most assumed we would have never won 61 games , and probably would have finsihed 2nd in the Division or Maybe 3rd.

Snickers
06-13-2004, 12:30 AM
I'd honestly be surprised if we got Tmac or Pierce. At this point, it's all speculation and wishful thinking anyway.

I don't understand why you hate Artest, but I do agree that a 2nd-tier 2-guard would probably suffice for what we need. Pretty much any of the guys on your list would fit the bill.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 12:33 AM
Trade Ron, and you'll lose more on defense than you could ever GAIN on offense.

I'd probably deal Ron for TMac, but I'd really REALLY think hard about it.

Ron's defense is not somethign you can duplicate. He's the only player in the NBA that can do what he does on that end.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 12:35 AM
Your Right though we don't need a Tmac or Ray Allen type player , all we need is a SG who can put in 15ppg , I Forget what the stats were but they were pretty amazing that when Reggie scored 15 ppg or more we won most every game he did that , so if you can get a SG who puts in 15ppg and Reggie comes off the Bench and adds say 5-10 ppg that would be enough to get us over the hump at SG I think.

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2004, 12:37 AM
You know atfirst I really wanted to see McGrady or Allen or Pierice here in Indiana but after giving it much thought that would not help us.

What Indiana has is a star, Jermaine O'Neal, and they should build around him.

I would like to see Artest gone because he has brooken the offense so many damn times. I hate the guy.

Yet its hard to get fair value for him but I would settle for less, probably.

Anyway, my point is, is that we don't need stars but we do need good players.

Heres a list:

- Jason Terry
- Matt Harpring
- Corey Maggette
- Mike Dunlevy
- Stephen Jackson
- Quentien Richardson
- Brent Barry
- Michael Reed [I wish]
- James Posey
- Mike Miller
- Cuttino Mobley
- Manu Ginobli [I would love to have him. I'd take him over Artest! Thats how much I hate Artest because I know Artest is better.]

Laughable!

Let me get this strait...You want to give up a guy that is worth a "guaranteed" 12 to 15ppg plus knocking off at least 10 points off the average of whomever he guards? Yet, you want to keep a guy that is INCONSISTANT, a black hole, and takes poor shots when he could pass. Yeah, Ronnie breaking the offense can be maddening at times, but Harrington couldn't carry Ronnie's jock strap when it comes to who is worth more to this team.

Harrington...Have fun starting for (place sub-.500 team here)! Bye bye.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 12:40 AM
Trade Ron, and you'll lose more on defense than you could ever GAIN on offense.
Ron's defense is not somethign you can duplicate. He's the only player in the NBA that can do what he does on that end.

You hit it right on the Head but not only what Ron does Defense wise , He can do it on the Offensive end , he did avg 18ppg and I can't think of another player who can do it on both ends like Ron Artest.

People say Bruce Bowen is compareable to Ron on Defense ( I still this Ron is more superior) But Bruce only avg 6.9 ppg this last season.

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2004, 12:48 AM
Your Right though we don't need a Tmac or Ray Allen type player , all we need is a SG who can put in 15ppg , I Forget what the stats were but they were pretty amazing that when Reggie scored 15 ppg or more we won most every game he did that , so if you can get a SG who puts in 15ppg and Reggie comes off the Bench and adds say 5-10 ppg that would be enough to get us over the hump at SG I think.

Man, I agree with you more and more every day...amazing! :o

I would like to get a marquee player like T-mac or Allen for just Harrington and some loose change, but Harrington is not that good to draw that kind of talent no matter the situation. We here have all seen Harrington and tend to overvalue the guy because we focus on the positives and not the negative. You better believe these GM's will be focusing on Al's short commings and reasons why some of us want this guy gone (like myself).

If we can turn A.H. and loose change into role players that fit what we want...I would be happy.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 01:00 AM
Oh I wouldn't mind having Tmac , Don't really care for Ray Allen but that's another topic ;) I just think you have to give up too much to get such Players , you don't rob Peter ( defense) to pay Paul (offense)

I mean I would do a trade for Tmac if they would take Harrington , Croshere , Bender and if I had to I would throw in Pollard. Any way you slice it , it's gonna take most any team who want's Tmac , 2-3 players for 1 and I don't mean crap players , Orlando is gonna want to maximize what they get for Tmac and I don't blame them because they will be pretty much rebuilding a Team.

Young
06-13-2004, 01:04 AM
Incase you guys haven't noticed the Pistons are beating the Lakers with their team defense. You see, Ben Wallace is a great defender but he won't shut his guy down. He is a great team defender. Key word is team and teams win championships.

Think about it, if we trade Artest and get two players who are good scorers and good defenders we would be better.

He can shut his man down all he wants [and I love that] but at the end of the day he is one of the most selfish players offenseively. Plain and simple. I honestly will be suprised if Bird puts up with it.

He has taken more shots than JO, the real star, so many times its not funny. He constantly ****s up the offense.

I know, his defense is great and I love that but we will never get anywhere with him ****ing up the offense. I'd take a good offenseive player who is a good defender over Artest, who is a great defender but a ok offenseive player anyday because the whole key to winning a tittle is team. There is no I in team. There is no Artest in team.

Am I the only one who saw/sees how selfish he is? It wasn't that hard to see. When he catches it and doesn't even look for a teamate. He justs looks up at his man and goes one on one or he will throw up a brick. He threw up so many bricks he could have built a new arena for us. [A little sarcasim there.]

Look at this:

In 73 games he shot 468-1,112. Thats an average of 6/15. Thats 41% which is ok, I guess.

From downtown he was 75-242. 1/3 a game. :unimpressed:

Then in the playoffs, he shot 9-22 from downtown vs Miami but then vs a much better team defenseively he shot 6-31. That makes no sense to shoot more 3s like that vs Detroit. Then he attempts more shots overall in that series and less foul shots.

That is why i've hated this guy. I feel like we could have won vs Detroit if he had half a brain.

Stryder
06-13-2004, 01:06 AM
DAMNIT! People, one of the rules of trading says you do NOT trade Defense for instant offense.......

And in Artest's case, he brings much more to the table than just defense...

He was Defensive Player of the Year and averaged 18 points per game! DAMNIT!

I'm tired of these "Trade Artest" or "I Hate Artest" threads...

TOO many people undervalue what he means to the team, itself.

Like others have said, you take Artest off this year's team, then they don't win more than 50 games and more than likely lose the Heat in the playoffs...

Stryder
06-13-2004, 01:09 AM
Incase you guys haven't noticed the Pistons are beating the Lakers with their team defense. You see, Ben Wallace is a great defender but he won't shut his guy down. He is a great team defender. Key word is team and teams win championships.

Think about it, if we trade Artest and get two players who are good scorers and good defenders we would be better.

He can shut his man down all he wants [and I love that] but at the end of the day he is one of the most selfish players offenseively. Plain and simple. I honestly will be suprised if Bird puts up with it.

He has taken more shots than JO, the real star, so many times its not funny. He constantly ****s up the offense.

I know, his defense is great and I love that but we will never get anywhere with him ****ing up the offense. I'd take a good offenseive player who is a good defender over Artest, who is a great defender but a ok offenseive player anyday because the whole key to winning a tittle is team. There is no I in team. There is no Artest in team.

Am I the only one who saw/sees how selfish he is? It wasn't that hard to see. When he catches it and doesn't even look for a teamate. He justs looks up at his man and goes one on one or he will throw up a brick. He threw up so many bricks he could have built a new arena for us. [A little sarcasim there.]

Look at this:

In 73 games he shot 468-1,112. Thats an average of 6/15. Thats 41% which is ok, I guess.

From downtown he was 75-242. 1/3 a game. :unimpressed:

Then in the playoffs, he shot 9-22 from downtown vs Miami but then vs a much better team defenseively he shot 6-31. That makes no sense to shoot more 3s like that vs Detroit. Then he attempts more shots overall in that series and less foul shots.

That is why i've hated this guy. I feel like we could have won vs Detroit if he had half a brain.

Blame the coach for not sitting his *** on the bench and teaching him a lesson...

He's not going to learn unless there are consequences on the court...

And by consequences, I don't mean trading him....

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2004, 01:10 AM
Incase you guys haven't noticed the Pistons are beating the Lakers with their team defense. You see, Ben Wallace is a great defender but he won't shut his guy down. He is a great team defender. Key word is team and teams win championships.

Think about it, if we trade Artest and get two players who are good scorers and good defenders we would be better.

He can shut his man down all he wants [and I love that] but at the end of the day he is one of the most selfish players offenseively. Plain and simple. I honestly will be suprised if Bird puts up with it.

He has taken more shots than JO, the real star, so many times its not funny. He constantly ****s up the offense.

I know, his defense is great and I love that but we will never get anywhere with him ****ing up the offense. I'd take a good offenseive player who is a good defender over Artest, who is a great defender but a ok offenseive player anyday because the whole key to winning a tittle is team. There is no I in team. There is no Artest in team.

Am I the only one who saw/sees how selfish he is? It wasn't that hard to see. When he catches it and doesn't even look for a teamate. He justs looks up at his man and goes one on one or he will throw up a brick. He threw up so many bricks he could have built a new arena for us. [A little sarcasim there.]

Look at this:

In 73 games he shot 468-1,112. Thats an average of 6/15. Thats 41% which is ok, I guess.

From downtown he was 75-242. 1/3 a game. :unimpressed:

Then in the playoffs, he shot 9-22 from downtown vs Miami but then vs a much better team defenseively he shot 6-31. That makes no sense to shoot more 3s like that vs Detroit. Then he attempts more shots overall in that series and less foul shots.

That is why i've hated this guy. I feel like we could have won vs Detroit if he had half a brain.

So, you are saying that his 18 ppg were all totally out of the offense? Ok... Did I not see R.A. not be able to take his man to the hole a lot of times this year, under Carlisle's direction? Yeah, Ron breaks plays, who cares. If it was a real issue...he would have been sitting the bench like Al Harrington at the end of games at the end of the season.

BigDawg44
06-13-2004, 01:13 AM
Are we talking about trading artest for a role player? If so, why not just trade Al for a role player? Or am i completely missing what is going on in this thread?

Young
06-13-2004, 01:15 AM
Blame the coach for not sitting his *** on the bench and teaching him a lesson...

He's not going to learn unless there are consequences on the court...

And by consequences, I don't mean trading him....

I'm not going to play blame the coach, yet. :D Wait till a year or two and see where we're at. [Plus I got board at blaming Thomas last season.]

Seriously though, its common sense stuff.

Artest knows the diffrence between a good shot and a bad shot. He knows his limits and he knows how to use them. Fact is he didn't use his skills and he didn't show alot of knowledge when he came to the little things.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 01:20 AM
sorry we would have not won the ECF even if Ron would have took Less shots , I think it was pretty clear after Game 5 , we didn't have what it took to win the ECF and with JO and TInsley so hurt it was just like a slow bleeding wound.

Lakers should Trade Kobe too , for another player he Shot what 10-27 one game in the Finals ?

Young
06-13-2004, 01:21 AM
So, you are saying that his 18 ppg were all totally out of the offense? Ok... Did I not see R.A. not be able to take his man to the hole a lot of times this year, under Carlisle's direction? Yeah, Ron breaks plays, who cares. If it was a real issue...he would have been sitting the bench like Al Harrington at the end of games at the end of the season.

Notice when he averaged those 18 points it was in the reagular season when he was playing more within the offense.

As he started taking more shots and playing less and less within the offense, in the playoffs, his point production decreased.

Yeah, he breaks plays, who cares? :rolleyes:

I guess i'm about the only one who does.

We will never get to the finals if Artest keeps breaking plays because when someone breaks plays it hurts the team as a whole. You might not think that is a big deal but it is a big deal.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 01:25 AM
Notice when he averaged those 18 points it was in the reagular season when he was playing more within the offense.

Whoa , Whoa there Cowboy Ron avg 18.4 ppg in the playoffs 18.3 in the regualr season , so please make sure you know what your speaking about ;)

Young
06-13-2004, 01:28 AM
sorry we would have not won the ECF even if Ron would have took Less shots , I think it was pretty clear after Game 5 , we didn't have what it took to win the ECF and with JO and TInsley so hurt it was just like a slow bleeding wound.

Lakers should Trade Kobe too , for another player he Shot what 10-27 one game in the Finals ?

There were better shots for him though. There were people calling for the ball and he threw up a brick.

Yeah one game, one game means nothing. BTW Kobe has 3 rings last time I checked. ;) Which means he can and has won championships so he's played at that level, he ovbiously learns from his mistakes. It took Artest a year to learn from his last season. By the time he learns from his big flaws the whole team will be dead.

Also, he averaged 20, 21, and 14 in the playoffs.

And when he averaged 14 ppg he took more shots and averaged the least amount of assisits.

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2004, 01:35 AM
So, you are saying that his 18 ppg were all totally out of the offense? Ok... Did I not see R.A. not be able to take his man to the hole a lot of times this year, under Carlisle's direction? Yeah, Ron breaks plays, who cares. If it was a real issue...he would have been sitting the bench like Al Harrington at the end of games at the end of the season.

Notice when he averaged those 18 points it was in the reagular season when he was playing more within the offense.

As he started taking more shots and playing less and less within the offense, in the playoffs, his point production decreased.

Yeah, he breaks plays, who cares? :rolleyes:



I guess i'm about the only one who does.

We will never get to the finals if Artest keeps breaking plays because when someone breaks plays it hurts the team as a whole. You might not think that is a big deal but it is a big deal.

Yep, who cares...

No Ron Artest = 3rd seed and a loss to the Nets in the 2nd round...Nice!

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:38 AM
You''ll never get to the finals with ron braking plays.

You'll also never get to the finals without Ron playing defense.

Aside from Ron, Indiana's perimeter defenders are VERY average, aside from MAYBE freddie jones, who wont have the luxury of defending guys that ron has already worn out defensively.

If it were me, I'd give ron more time to come around on offense.

Young
06-13-2004, 01:39 AM
So, you are saying that his 18 ppg were all totally out of the offense? Ok... Did I not see R.A. not be able to take his man to the hole a lot of times this year, under Carlisle's direction? Yeah, Ron breaks plays, who cares. If it was a real issue...he would have been sitting the bench like Al Harrington at the end of games at the end of the season.

Notice when he averaged those 18 points it was in the reagular season when he was playing more within the offense.

As he started taking more shots and playing less and less within the offense, in the playoffs, his point production decreased.

Yeah, he breaks plays, who cares? :rolleyes:



I guess i'm about the only one who does.

We will never get to the finals if Artest keeps breaking plays because when someone breaks plays it hurts the team as a whole. You might not think that is a big deal but it is a big deal.

Yep, who cares...

No Ron Artest = 3rd seed and a loss to the Nets in the 2nd round...Nice!

So your saying that it doesn't matter who we get for Artest we would be worse? Ok.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:46 AM
So your saying that it doesn't matter who we get for Artest we would be worse? Ok.

Dont know about him, but I know thats what I think. Aside for MAYBE TMac there is no such swingman in the NBA with equal value to ron artest.

I've had so many arguments with people wanting to trade ben wallace over the years, TRUST me when I say I'm experienced at these discussions by now.

Defense trumps offense. Its that simple.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 01:46 AM
You''ll never get to the finals with ron braking plays.

You'll also never get to the finals without Ron playing defense.

Aside from Ron, Indiana's perimeter defenders are VERY average, aside from MAYBE freddie jones, who wont have the luxury of defending guys that ron has already worn out defensively.

If it were me, I'd give ron more time to come around on offense.

Thanks Kstat and I agree , also look how much progress Ron made from the Year before , he proved to me he can improve and I believe he will improve next year. The guy is young and has made some mistakes ... but so has JO from time to time , Tinsely , Al Harrington you could name several of our young players who have made critical mistakes , it's all about maturing.

Young
06-13-2004, 01:50 AM
So your saying that it doesn't matter who we get for Artest we would be worse? Ok.

Dont know about him, but I know thats what I think. Aside for MAYBE TMac there is no such swingman in the NBA with equal value to ron artest.

I've had so many arguments with people wanting to trade ben wallace over the years, TRUST me when I say I'm experienced at these discussions by now.

Defense trumps offense. Its that simple.

One, who said we could only get one player for Artest? We could get two or package Croshere with him for cap space to sign a very good player or player[s]

Two we wouldn't get equal value for Artest but we can improve our team as a whole for him and thats what matters to me. If I had the oppurtonity to make a move that would put us at a championship level, even if we didn't get equal value for Artest, I would do it. Because winning a tittle is what its all about to me.

BTW: To me, to win a tittle you must have a great team defenseively and a good team offenseively. We have some pieces but we could be better.

Also, did Ben Wallace break his teams offense like Artest? I'm asking this seriously because I don't know, i'm curious.

Roaming Gnome
06-13-2004, 01:52 AM
So, you are saying that his 18 ppg were all totally out of the offense? Ok... Did I not see R.A. not be able to take his man to the hole a lot of times this year, under Carlisle's direction? Yeah, Ron breaks plays, who cares. If it was a real issue...he would have been sitting the bench like Al Harrington at the end of games at the end of the season.

Notice when he averaged those 18 points it was in the reagular season when he was playing more within the offense.

As he started taking more shots and playing less and less within the offense, in the playoffs, his point production decreased.

Yeah, he breaks plays, who cares? :rolleyes:



I guess i'm about the only one who does.

We will never get to the finals if Artest keeps breaking plays because when someone breaks plays it hurts the team as a whole. You might not think that is a big deal but it is a big deal.

Yep, who cares...

No Ron Artest = 3rd seed and a loss to the Nets in the 2nd round...Nice!

So your saying that it doesn't matter who we get for Artest we would be worse? Ok.

I know that you wont agree, but I look at Artest like this... Guarantee'd 13 ppg PLUS the 10ppg he takes off the average of who he is guarding. So, yeah if you get a guy that knocks down about 23ppg, or can guarantee knocking a marquee players scoring average down that significantly plus put points on the board...Then yes see if you can get him for just Artest, Good Luck because it wont happen! Might as well let Ron grow into the offense because players that can play both sides of the court do not come every year. Ronnie is a player that will shut down the McGrady's and Kobe's of the league and they come far and few between.

Sorry, Artest breaking some plays occasionally is worth it. It is not like he is doing it every min that he is on the floor. Anyway, if him breaking plays were such a problem...he would have been treated like Al "Fade-Away" Harrington with his arse firmly planted on the pine in the big time!

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:57 AM
One, who said we could only get one player for Artest? We could get two or package Croshere with him for cap space to sign a very good player or player[s]

package artest......for CAP SPACE :o WTF?

Yeah, because Indiana has signed TONS of free agents recently.....not to mention that they will be DYING to play for a team thats dumped its best all-around player..... :laugh:

Two we wouldn't get equal value for Artest but we can improve our team as a whole for him and thats what matters to me. If I had the oppurtonity to make a move that would put us at a championship level, even if we didn't get equal value for Artest, I would do it. Because winning a tittle is what its all about to me.

Perhaps you werent listening to me the FIRST time.

There is no way you get better as a TEAM by TRADING ron artest. Period. Defensively, you'd go from very good to middle of the pack at BEST.

BTW: To me, to win a tittle you must have a great team defenseively and a good team offenseively. We have some pieces but we could be better.

So you want to go from a great defensive team/average offensive team to an average defensive/good offensive yeam? :confused: Where's the progress in that?

Also, did Ben Wallace break his teams offense like Artest? I'm asking this seriously because I don't know, i'm curious.

Anytime Ben takes a shot thats not an alley-ooped, that breaking the offense :laugh: And he does it more and more nowadays too.

Reguardless Ben is and always WILL be the worst offensive playing in our lineup. Doesn't change the fact he's the best rebounder in the NBA and the 2nd-best help defender in NBA HISTORY after Bill Russell. :cool:

Young
06-13-2004, 01:59 AM
I know that you wont agree, but I look at Artest like this... Guarantee'd 13 ppg PLUS the 10ppg he takes off the average of who he is guarding. So, yeah if you get a guy that knocks down about 23ppg, or can guarantee knocking a marquee players scoring average down that significantly plus put points on the board...Then yes see if you can get him for just Artest, Good Luck because it wont happen! Might as well let Ron grow into the offense because players that can play both sides of the court do not come every year. Ronnie is a player that will shut down the McGrady's and Kobe's of the league and they come far and few between.

Sorry, Artest breaking some plays occasionally is worth it. It is not like he is doing it every min that he is on the floor. Anyway, if him breaking plays were such a problem...he would have been treated like Al "Fade-Away" Harrington with his arse firmly planted on the pine in the big time!

Artest didn't break the offense occasionally, he would break it every other time he touched the ball.

If it was an occasionally mistake he made I would have no problem with him but it was constantly.

BTW, believe it or not last season I was saying we should keep Artest and let him learn. Now though i'm tired of him.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 02:01 AM
Defense trumps offense. Its that simple.

Amen :D


Also I am not so convinced that a Tmac or a Ray Allen would like it here , They both Play on Teams now where they are the Main offensive scorers and weapons this would not be the Case if the came to Indiana so there ppg I would expect to Drop some.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 02:10 AM
and all this time, Ron had to pass out to:

AJ who couldnt hit the broad side of a barn.

JO who was getting tag-teamed the second he entered the paint.

Bender who goes into traumatic shock every time he tries to make a move with the ball.

AL, who still hasn't learned that NBA games last LONGER than 5 minutes.


one-leg jamal who wasnt shooting shots as much as he was THROWING them.

Freddie, who shot well in 1 game out of 6.

Croshere, who only SHOWED UP in 1 game out of 6.

Reggie, who most of the series played somewhere between old man and REALLY old man.....

Or Foster who......well, is Jeff Foster

So tell me, which super-hot-hand should have taken Ron's shots anyway?

Young
06-13-2004, 02:11 AM
One, who said we could only get one player for Artest? We could get two or package Croshere with him for cap space to sign a very good player or player[s]

package artest......for CAP SPACE :o WTF?

Yeah, because Indiana has signed TONS of free agents recently.....not to mention that they will be DYING to play for a team thats dumped its best all-around player..... :laugh:

Two we wouldn't get equal value for Artest but we can improve our team as a whole for him and thats what matters to me. If I had the oppurtonity to make a move that would put us at a championship level, even if we didn't get equal value for Artest, I would do it. Because winning a tittle is what its all about to me.

Perhaps you werent listening to me the FIRST time.

There is no way you get better as a TEAM by TRADING ron artest. Period. Defensively, you'd go from very good to middle of the pack at BEST.

BTW: To me, to win a tittle you must have a great team defenseively and a good team offenseively. We have some pieces but we could be better.

So you want to go from a great defensive team/average offensive team to an average defensive/good offensive yeam? :confused: Where's the progress in that?

Also, did Ben Wallace break his teams offense like Artest? I'm asking this seriously because I don't know, i'm curious.

Anytime Ben takes a shot thats not an alley-ooped, that breaking the offense :laugh: And he does it more and more nowadays too.

Reguardless Ben is and always WILL be the worst offensive playing in our lineup. Doesn't change the fact he's the best rebounder in the NBA and the 2nd-best help defender in NBA HISTORY after Bill Russell. :cool:

Yeah, you see Artest is our best all around player. A great defender but offenseively I wanna throw up.

And yeah I would trade Artest for cap space if there was a free agent to sign that could help out this team. And its hard to sign any free agents when you have Austin Croshere's salary.

Artest can shut down all the players he wants. I don't care how many players he shuts down when he is screwing up the offense. You can't just have a great team defenseively you have to have a good team offenseively. Detroit has that. Thats why they are in the finals and winning. They are a team. There not just about Ben Wallace and his defense. There not just about there backcourt or there forwards. There about a team as a whole. All 5 guys.

I said a great team defenseively and a good team offenseively. I guess in your opinion trading Ron Artest would be a downgrade. I think it could be an upgrade depending on who we got.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 02:12 AM
Hmm this should be a intresting answer , I would say someone just got punked :laugh:

Kstat
06-13-2004, 02:15 AM
And yeah I would trade Artest for cap space if there was a free agent to sign that could help out this team. And its hard to sign any free agents when you have Austin Croshere's salary.

WHO could the Pacers sign? Even with Ron and Cro gone they'd STILL only be able to sign one big-man guy or two mid-range guys.

I'd LOVE to hear who you think would be worth losing Artest for.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 02:15 AM
Cap Space :confused: Ron only made 5 million last year and I don't think you can find a player that could do what Ron can do for 5 million and some change next year .

Ron is like the 6 th highest paid pacer on the roster , and that's only because he made 74,000 more than Reggie or he would have been the 7th and we have him locked up for what 5 more years at a steal of a price,

Young
06-13-2004, 02:15 AM
and all this time, Ron had to pass out to:

AJ who couldnt hit the broad side of a barn.

JO who was getting tag-teamed the second he entered the paint.

Bender who goes into traumatic shock every time he tries to make a move with the ball.

AL, who still hasn't learned that NBA games last LONGER than 5 minutes.


one-leg jamal who wasnt shooting shots as much as he was THROWING them.

Freddie, who shot well in 1 game out of 6.

Croshere, who only SHOWED UP in 1 game out of 6.

Reggie, who most of the series played somewhere between old man and REALLY old man.....

Or Foster who......well, is Jeff Foster

So tell me, which super-hot-hand should have taken Ron's shots anyway?

The open player. Thats the whole point of the offense RC put in. Its called ball movement.

And when the ball is moved guys are open.

AJ can hit the open shot.

Fred Jones can. He improved his shot over the season.

Reggie can.

Bender can.

Croshere.

Young
06-13-2004, 02:18 AM
And yeah I would trade Artest for cap space if there was a free agent to sign that could help out this team. And its hard to sign any free agents when you have Austin Croshere's salary.

WHO could the Pacers sign? Even with Ron and Cro gone they'd STILL only be able to sign one big-man guy or two mid-range guys.

I'd LOVE to hear who you think would be worth losing Artest for.

I said IF there was someone to sign. That is if. Is there someone to sign. I don't know.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 02:19 AM
The open player. Thats the whole point of the offense RC put in. Its called ball movement.

And when the ball is moved guys are open.

AJ can hit the open shot.

Fred Jones can. He improved his shot over the season.

Reggie can.

Bender can.

Croshere.


Yeah they Can , But they WEREN"T is the point Kstat was making I believe ;)

Young
06-13-2004, 02:23 AM
The open player. Thats the whole point of the offense RC put in. Its called ball movement.

And when the ball is moved guys are open.

AJ can hit the open shot.

Fred Jones can. He improved his shot over the season.

Reggie can.

Bender can.

Croshere.


Yeah they Can , But they WEREN"T is the point Kstat was making I believe ;)

No they weren't because there was no ball movement. They were never open because Artest touched the ball every other possession.

To me, almost every time Artest touched the ball the offense just looked like ice. It was cold.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 02:39 AM
AJ can hit the open shot.

........to the tune of %30 shooting in the series.

Fred Jones can. He improved his shot over the season.

.....improved it so much he shot %39 and only scored over 5 points ONCE.

Reggie can.

shoot over %38 ONCE in 6 games.

Bender can.

average 2.7 points.

Croshere.

shot %34.

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 02:40 AM
No they weren't because there was no ball movement. They were never open because Artest touched the ball every other possession.

To me, almost every time Artest touched the ball the offense just looked like ice. It was cold.

No they weren't because there was no ball movement. They were never open because Artest touched the ball every other possession.

To me, almost every time Artest touched the ball the offense just looked like ice. It was cold.

So it's all Ron's fault we lost the ECF ? I am pretty sure Ron left sat down some many mins before the 3 period ended and Ron didn't come back in til I believe the 7 min mark of the 4th ...so what was the Excuse again ?

Kstat
06-13-2004, 02:42 AM
The open player. Thats the whole point of the offense RC put in. Its called ball movement.

And when the ball is moved guys are open.

AJ can hit the open shot.

Fred Jones can. He improved his shot over the season.

Reggie can.

Bender can.

Croshere.


Yeah they Can , But they WEREN"T is the point Kstat was making I believe ;)

No they weren't because there was no ball movement. They were never open because Artest touched the ball every other possession.

To me, almost every time Artest touched the ball the offense just looked like ice. It was cold.

Someone please tell me how passing the ball endlessly from side to side helps matters when nobody is drawing the defense?

waterjater
06-13-2004, 03:04 AM
I agree with everything Kstat and Saucemaster said on this subject.

And after watching Tayshawn shut Kobe down for virtually 3 games, I am even more impressed with how Ron Artest played against Tayshawn. Ron actually took better shots than Kobe has and may have played better.

Hell, just look at how competitive the Pacers and Pistons series was!! The Lakers are getting HAMMERRED. It should be 3-0.

Without Ron as part of Carlisle's team defensive concept, we aren't even in the game with the Pistons. Hell, we don't win 50 games and probably lose in the 2nd round. If Ron improves half as much as he did this year, watch out.

Water

Artestaholic
06-13-2004, 03:27 AM
Quentin Richardson
+'s: Good scorer, solid defender, nice well-rounded game, young, has improved a lot the past season and should keep on improving
-'s: Bad FG%, questionable 3 point shot, no playoff experience

Joe Johnson
+'s: Very nice overall game, very young, potential superstar
-'s: Not much experience, sub-par FG%, had a bad playoffs last year

Stephen Jackson
+'s: Very good "blossoming" scorer, solid overall game, big game experience, still young, acceptable 3 point shot, San Antonio with SJ: Championship, San Antonio w/o SJ: 2nd round exit
_'s: Ball hog?, average FG%, another small foward playing shooting guard?


Jason Terry
+'s: very good scorer, nice passer, nice speed, nice 3 point shooter, big Reggie Miller fan
-'s: too selfish at times?, undersized, attitude problems?

Cuttino Mobley
+'s: Nice scoring, nice defender, acceptable passing and rebounding
-'s: toughness?, not that good a passer or rebounder

Brent Barry
+'s: Fantastic shooter, fantastic passer, good rebounder, experience
-'s: Defense issues?, bad hair

Manu Ginobili
+'s: great defender
-'s: not a great scorer or shooter

Matt Harpring
+'s: tough hard-nosed player, can get you 17 a night, good rebounder and defender, experience
-'s: Isn't he a small foward?

Corey Maggette
+'s: great scorer, great strength, he and Artest would be an incredibly strong combo, nice rebounder, gets to the freethrow line more than anybody in the league
-'s: Top-5 in turnovers, is he that good a 3 point shooter?, unatainable?

Mike Dunlevy
+'s: Very nice young player with superstar potential
-'s: SF/PF, not what the Pacers need

Michael Reed
+'s: Probably the leagues best shooter, could just stand at the 3 point line nonstop and still score 20 a game, his shot would open up the floor more for more driving and more uncontested shots (especialy for JO)
-'s: Unatainable?, shooting is the only thing he's great, or even really good at (but is there anything else we'd need from him?)

James Posey
+'s: nice overall game, very good defender, above-average scorer
-'s: Only an above-average scorer, hows his shot?

Mike Miller
+'s: Overall game is nice
-'s: defense isn't

bulletproof
06-13-2004, 04:23 AM
Ah, you guys just go right on being blissfully ignorant about Ron. It's not about his on-court play at this point. Lakers win game 4 and Kstat's opinion doesn't mean diddly squat to you.

You guys (except rommie) are homerifically preposterous.

This makes sense:

Kobe for McGrady.

This would be shocking:

Ron and some change for McGrady.

I'd make this trade in a second. Wake up people. The Pacers built championship-quality teams around Reggie. McGrady is better than Reggie, and the tandem of JO and McGrady would be incredibly scary. Especially with a supporting cast of Al, Fred, Foster, Tins and Bender.

If Donnie and Larry could swing a deal like this, it would be buh-bye Ron.

Mourning
06-13-2004, 07:31 AM
Ah, you guys just go right on being blissfully ignorant about Ron. It's not about his on-court play at this point. Lakers win game 4 and Kstat's opinion doesn't mean diddly squat to you.

You guys (except rommie) are homerifically preposterous.

This makes sense:

Kobe for McGrady.

This would be shocking:

Ron and some change for McGrady.

I'd make this trade in a second. Wake up people. The Pacers built championship-quality teams around Reggie. McGrady is better than Reggie, and the tandem of JO and McGrady would be incredibly scary. Especially with a supporting cast of Al, Fred, Foster, Tins and Bender.

If Donnie and Larry could swing a deal like this, it would be buh-bye Ron.

Ehhhh.... excuse me, you think we would be able to keep all our players you mentioned :confused:. Indeed that would be a shock and than I would say "yes" too, but it just isn't going to go like that. Orlando is not THAT stupid.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

beast23
06-13-2004, 12:36 PM
I think what a lot of people overlook is that team does have two stars.

One on the offensive end.
and
One on the defensive end.

I think many folks who are quick to want to trade Ron can appreciate offensive production, but may not have clue what good defensive effort is all about.

bulletproof
06-13-2004, 12:54 PM
I think many folks who are quick to want to trade Ron can appreciate offensive production, but may not have clue what good defensive effort is all about.

It's not a matter about wanting to trade Ron. I just think it may be inevitable.

Because of Ron's off-court issues, if Donnie and Larry can trade Ron for a player of equal or greater value, I'm fairly confident they will.

Pacer4fun
06-13-2004, 01:57 PM
Bullet... Okay, enough already. Not to be rude, but either talk about the "off court" issues with Ron or stop bringing it up. I think Donnie and Larry like him so I doubt if a trade involving him even for T-Mac is likely.

In this dispute over Ron and his offense. I don't disagree that Artest holding the ball created problems on offense, but it wasn't just him. A.J. would rarely pass to Bender and took poor shoots at times. Al, gosh, talk about a black hole.

In general, I think our offense sucks, way to much one on one by everyone except Reggie, very little purposeful movement away from the ball. Drive, draw and dish is also a phrase many of the guys need to learn. So Ron's offensive problems were more obvious, but not much more blantant than anyone else.

One last comment about T-Mac. If he is wanting to leave, that means Orlando isn't going to get EQUAL value, so it doesn't have to be Artest. I wouldn't trade Artest for T-Mac, Artest is a warrior that I'm not sure we should be without.

bulletproof
06-13-2004, 02:01 PM
Bullet... Okay, enough already. Not to be rude, but either talk about the "off court" issues with Ron or stop bringing it up. I think Donnie and Larry like him so I doubt if a trade involving him even for T-Mac is likely.

Um, whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Unclebuck
06-13-2004, 02:20 PM
Rommie, you need to go back and watch the ECF again. I am sorry I am getting into this discussion a little late, but all of you have done a great job defending Artest.

I just want to add a couple of thing.

1) Rommie, when Ron and J.O are on the floor at the same time I would say 90% of the plays are for those two guys. Ron is supposed to shoot the ball. Ron is suppose to make something happen. And to break it down further, I would say of those 90% of the plays at least 40% of those are for Ron.

You might say well then it is the coaches fault. Well whatever but I think this is a great coaching they know who should be getting the ball on offense.

90% of the shots Ron took in the ECF were the exact same shots he took all season. The only difference is that the Pistons defense is so good, IMO the best I have ever seen.

Ron made the proper adjustments and I thought played very well ofensively in games #4 and games #6. Keep in mind J.O was about 60% in games 5 and 6, who else was going to shoot or create offense. Jamaal was hurt.

Putting aside Ron's great defense, the Pacers need his offense almost as much.

I have said all this before, noithing else to say

Young
06-13-2004, 03:42 PM
Ron is supposed to shoot the ball, yes.

But he isn't supposed to be going out there trying to draw fouls and jacking up dumb shots.

When guys are open you have to make the pass. Ron didn't do that like he should have.

waterjater
06-13-2004, 05:14 PM
Ron is supposed to shoot the ball, yes.

But he isn't supposed to be going out there trying to draw fouls and jacking up dumb shots.

When guys are open you have to make the pass. Ron didn't do that like he should have.

Yes, and he'll learn, just like he did last year and come back an even better player. This works for me. Learn and get better. The amount of improvement he made this year is phenomenal. Give me half that amount of improvement next year and I'm a happy fan!

Water

Peck
06-13-2004, 05:18 PM
A couple of questions about Ben Wallace?

Did Ben ever think he was the star of the team? Did Ben ever want to be more than what he was?

We keep comparing Ben to Ron & I just wonder if that is an accurate comparison. Other than being the best defenders in the N.B.A. there really is nothing else similar.

IMO everybody blasts Al for wanting to be the man while totally ignoring the fact that Ron shows the exact same qualities.

While it is impossible to ignore the fact that Ron is the best defender in the entire N.B.A. & he is also one hell of a scorer (making him one of the best players in the NBA BTW) it is also impossible to ignore the fact that the guy also has issues.

On the court off the court, with Ron it really doesn't matter. His off-court problems affect Ron on court.

One other thing to consider for everybody.

What if O'Neal doesn't want him on the team? What if J.O. is as tired of his antics as some you are?

Do you lose J.O. & keep Ron?

BTW, the idea that you can just tell J.O. to suffer & play through his max. deal is not realistic. That is not the way it works in the N.B.A.

I'd just as soon keep Ron if at all possible, but I am willing to concede that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that is not public with Ron & if Bird, Walsh or Carlisle think it's just not worth it then I am willing to understand.

Bball
06-13-2004, 06:02 PM
One other thing to consider for everybody.

What if O'Neal doesn't want him on the team? What if J.O. is as tired of his antics as some you are?

Do you lose J.O. & keep Ron?

BTW, the idea that you can just tell J.O. to suffer & play through his max. deal is not realistic. That is not the way it works in the N.B.A.

I'd just as soon keep Ron if at all possible, but I am willing to concede that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that is not public with Ron & if Bird, Walsh or Carlisle think it's just not worth it then I am willing to understand.

If JO wants Artest gone, and the reasons are the things we'd suspect (ie: valid and not petty), then the team needs to move Artest UNLESS they think these issues can be repaired/changed. Expecting JO to deal with it for a while is one thing but not seeing any light at the end of a tunnel is another. Since we only know what the team wants us to know I am not sure where things are with JO and Artest or Artest and management.

Barkley made a comment in the season prior that we needed a vet to take Artest under his wing and keep him in line... and he said we didn't have that. I don't know if Barkley forgot about RMiller, was sending Reggie a signal, or was simply saying Reggie won't/can't do what Barkley is recommending.

All this talk about Artest is giving me a migraine! ;)

-Bball

ChicagoJ
06-13-2004, 11:22 PM
I swear that I've been busy and offline all day; I have not been posting under rommie's screen name.

:D

Young
06-14-2004, 12:08 AM
Barkley made a comment in the season prior that we needed a vet to take Artest under his wing and keep him in line... and he said we didn't have that. I don't know if Barkley forgot about RMiller, was sending Reggie a signal, or was simply saying Reggie won't/can't do what Barkley is recommending.

If Artest needs a babysiter i'd sign Avery Johnson or someone cheap depending on if Indiana keeps him.

Suaveness
06-14-2004, 12:10 AM
This is my last post on this topic. I'm going to stop defending Artest because it doesn't seem like I can convince you guys. Unless you work in the front office, I don't see how you know there are "problems". These are assumptions.

Anyway, I'm sick of this topic. Have fun.

waterjater
06-14-2004, 03:24 AM
I'd just as soon keep Ron if at all possible, but I am willing to concede that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that is not public with Ron & if Bird, Walsh or Carlisle think it's just not worth it then I am willing to understand.

Agreed with this. I hope their aren't any issues and he comes back better and tougher than this year. If he is a "cancer" and we haven't heard all the facts, then he should be moved. I just hope this isn't the case.

Water

TheSauceMaster
06-14-2004, 06:36 AM
I am with you Suaveness, tired of defending Ron and I would love to hear some vaild proof there is issues in the pacers locker room , all I hear is alot of assuming and no proof.

I will say this if Ron is Traded it will not change my support for the Team , If Donnie and Larry Deem it as something that needs to be done , there is no reason for me too doubt there actions. But fans going around speculating things may not be cheery in Pacer Land is kinda insane , matter a fact I am sure no NBA team is exempt from some of these problems and it happens when you have Superstars and the desire to win is high.

able
06-14-2004, 06:44 AM
The proof is in the pudding and the secret is in the sauce :D

We will not know, until something happens, IF anything goes on.
I for one will wait and see, no matter what, if Ron get's traded and n'import for who it will mean there is truth in yonder words, if not, then either the issue got resolved, or speculation ran high.

One thing I'm sure off, my water tells me that something is going on, and it's a biggie, to much talk, to many press sightings of these things to not have at least some root to it.
What amazes me most, and at the same time increases my respect for this team, that a player like TMac would have the Pacers on his short list of places he would want to go to.
Pacers have never been high on any star's list to go to, this team has achieved at least that, and it's a big step towards the future.