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View Full Version : FBI questions officials more about "Knick" Bavetta than Donaghy...



Jim R
06-12-2008, 07:11 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3439554

Article link, but wasn't it "Knick" Bavetta who made the infamous continuation call on Larry Johnson's and+1 which eventually sank the Pacers one year???

Aw Heck
06-12-2008, 07:16 PM
No, I'm pretty sure Jess Kersey was responsible for the LJ 4-pt play.

A name that will live in infamy...

Kaufman
06-12-2008, 07:50 PM
GD Kersey

Kstat
06-12-2008, 08:46 PM
Kersey once lit Micahel Jordan up for a technical foul late in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game, in Chicago nontheless.

It led to the Bulls blowing a big lead late in the game, and they lost in overtime.

I'll always respect Kersey for that. I've never once questioned his impartiality.

Kraft
06-12-2008, 08:54 PM
I'll always respect Kersey for that. I've never once questioned his impartiality.

I imagine Pacers fans are perhaps more interested in his competency.

Bball
06-12-2008, 09:29 PM
This must be wrong... I thought we were told the FBI had concluded its investigation and all was hunky dory.

Whether there is a conspiracy, grudges, manipulations, massaging or whatever else... if all of this leads to better (more CONSISTENT) officiating then I'm all for it. The game will be better for it... even if it means some 'stars' will shine a little less brightly.

-Bball

Kstat
06-12-2008, 09:33 PM
This must be wrong... I thought we were told the FBI had concluded its investigation and all was hunky dory.


...so let me get this straight: if th FBI doesn't investigate Donaghy's accusation, something is wrong.

...and if they DO investigate them ,that also means something is wrong?




Whether there is a conspiracy, grudges, manipulations, massaging or whatever else... if all of this leads to better (more CONSISTENT) officiating then I'm all for it. The game will be better for it... even if it means some 'stars' will shine a little less brightly.


I explained the concept of superstar calls in the other thread. You never bothered to address it.

Hicks
06-12-2008, 09:47 PM
I explained the concept of superstar calls in the other thread. You never bothered to address it.

If you want to play that game, there's more than one (good) comment you never bothered to address in the other thread on this.

Kstat
06-12-2008, 09:53 PM
If you want to play that game, there's more than one (good) comment you never bothered to address in the other thread on this.

If there's one that answered a question I left out there, feel free to point it out to me.

Unclebuck
06-12-2008, 10:50 PM
yes because Donaghy made some allegations against Dick

rm1369
06-12-2008, 10:58 PM
I explained the concept of superstar calls in the other thread. You never bothered to address it.

Superstar calls are a big part of the problem, but it isn't the only issue. I really can't believe anyone in anyway would suggest that NBA officiating is consistant. There are plenty of examples that suggest otherwise, but my favorite is always the '98 bulls / pacers ECF. Pippen simply molested Mark Jackson for the first two games then gets called for two quick fouls in game 3 for doing what he had been doing for the first two games. I fail to see the consistancy in that. Of course Pippen was on the road some maybe he wasn't playing with as much energy and didn't move his feet quite well enough.....or maybe it was because the pacers were at home and bird called out the officiating prior to the game.

rock747
06-12-2008, 11:06 PM
Knick Bavetta was officiating that game..

rock747
06-12-2008, 11:29 PM
Here is a great collection of NBA playoff games officiated by Bavetta...

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457311

Shade
06-13-2008, 12:47 AM
Here is a great collection of NBA playoff games officiated by Bavetta...

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457311

Thanks, I was looking for that.

What's the pattern in all of those games? The bigger market received the favorable calls in EVERY INSTANCE.

Kegboy
06-13-2008, 08:57 AM
Bavetta also called game 7 of the '98 ECF, game 4 of the 2000 Finals, and my personal favorite, March 12th, 2000, Heat at Pacers, where our 25-game home winning streak ended. That's the game that I turned to Grace as I saw Bavetta walk on the court and said, "We just lost this game."

Bball
06-13-2008, 11:29 AM
Of course Stern could always counter that the NBA just has low standards for their refs. How else can it be explained that Violet Palmer still has a job? :devil:

-Bball

Shade
06-13-2008, 12:05 PM
Of course Stern could always counter that the NBA just has low standards for their refs. How else can it be explained that Violet Palmer still has a job? :devil:

-Bball

Oh God, don't even get me started on Violet Palmer. Talk about being the token female referee. She's hands-down the worst ref in the league, and that's saying something.

BillS
06-13-2008, 12:13 PM
This must be wrong... I thought we were told the FBI had concluded its investigation and all was hunky dory.

Based on my reading of the story, this is people naming names about who they were questioned on during that investigation, not a new one.

Unclebuck
06-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Thanks, I was looking for that.

What's the pattern in all of those games? The bigger market received the favorable calls in EVERY INSTANCE.

Wait a minute, first you would have to watch each game and carefully chart every call and every non-call, then you have to see what Dick calld and didn't call. There is no way you can see a list of games and say yes Bevetta gave the bigger market favorable calls. All those games are at least 5 years old.

I really should just stay away from this debate, because I just truly don't understand THE "OTHER SIDE" OF the argument. It makes zero sense to me and I must admit I think anyone who believes that the NBA in one form or another is trying to unduly influence the outcome of games - I believe they are 100%. I'm trying to control what I say here

Shade
06-13-2008, 12:55 PM
Wait a minute, first you would have to watch each game and carefully chart every call and every non-call, then you have to see what Dick calld and didn't call. There is no way you can see a list of games and say yes Bevetta gave the bigger market favorable calls. All those games are at least 5 years old.

I really should just stay away from this debate, because I just truly don't understand THE "OTHER SIDE" OF the argument. It makes zero sense to me and I must admit I think anyone who believes that the NBA in one form or another is trying to unduly influence the outcome of games - I believe they are 100%. I'm trying to control what I say here

I remember thinking the same thing at the times the games were originally played. There's further documentation within that link.

Conversely, I honestly don't see how people can see some of the things that make you go :wtf: and still believe that there's nothing strange going on behind the scenes. Some of it seems pretty obvious to me.

naptownmenace
06-13-2008, 01:45 PM
No, I'm pretty sure Jess Kersey was responsible for the LJ 4-pt play.

A name that will live in infamy...


It was Dick "The Knick" Bavetta that made that call. I can still see him signaling that the bucket counted clearly in my mind.

Trader Joe
06-13-2008, 01:58 PM
In the article Bill Simmons wrote about Game 4 he linked to an article he wrote in 2002 right after the Kings lost to the Lakers. In that article he names a set of games starting with the 4-Point play game that he believes were questionably officiated. Every single one of the games he mentions were officiated by Bavetta. On top of mention the 4-point play game, he also mentions game 6 of that same series.

EDIT: Simmons in his 2002 article said Kersey was the one who made that call.

Kegboy
06-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Kersey made the call. Bucher wrote an article in ESPN Mag a little over a year later where Kersey said he felt horrible about it and that he'll have to live with it the rest of his life. Which, of course, makes it all better. :rollout:

grace
06-13-2008, 02:43 PM
Oh God, don't even get me started on Violet Palmer. Talk about being the token female referee. She's hands-down the worst ref in the league, and that's saying something.

No she's not. That guy they brought up from the WNBA is worse.

grace
06-13-2008, 02:45 PM
ATTENTION UNCLE BUCK:


That's the game that I turned to Grace as I saw Bavetta walk on the court and said, "We just lost this game."

Either Kegboy is right about the referees or he can predict the future. Which one is it?

JayRedd
06-13-2008, 04:25 PM
That's either an irresponsible or negligent headline.

How do you get:



Federal agents asking questions about Bavetta


Out of:


"Two former NBA referees told ESPN on Thursday that federal investigators had questioned them about referee Dick Bavetta while conducting their probe into Tim Donaghy"

?

"Asking" construes current activity. "Had questioned" is the past tense.

From what I can conclude from the article, these questions about Bavetta all were part of the prior federal probe that Stern continues to reference as finished and they were asked because investigators were following up on the allegations made by Donaghy to prosecutors a long time ago about SAC/LA in 2002 and other things that are just now becoming public via Donaghy's attorney. The feds have known about these allegations long before the public was made aware from that letter that was recently sent out.

But how they can print "Asking" is beyond me unless I'm missing something.

Additionally, those calling for an independent look at NBA officiating in a George Mitchell fashion seem to be asking for something that already happened.


Stern also said the league would reinterview all its officials, all of whom were asked in interviews with independent investigator Lawrence Pedowitz whether they had ever made a call based on anything other than the merits of the call itself.

The Pedowitz report has been in the league's hands for several weeks, but the NBA has said it will not release the report until Donaghy is sentenced and that investigation is closed.

Anthem
06-13-2008, 04:42 PM
Classic:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020606


Question: What was the most disturbing subplot of the playoffs?

Answer: The officiating, also the most disturbing subplot of the past four playoffs. If you examine the last four NBA playoff campaigns, during every situation where the league definitively "needed" one of the two teams involved to win -- either to A) change the momentum of a series so it didn't end prematurely, B) keep an attractive, big-market team alive in a series, or C) advance an attractive, big-market team to another round -- the officiating appeared to be slanted towards the team that needed that game. I use the phrase "appeared to be," because reviewing an official's performance is purely subjective. Maybe I'm dead-wrong.

These were just the games that jump out in my mind (again, I could be wrong):

# 1999, Knicks-Pacers, Game 3 ... LJ sinks a game-winning four-pointer (called a continuation foul by referee Jess Kersey even though LJ was fouled a full second before he released the ball).

# 1999, Knicks-Pacers, Game 6 ... Knicks last chance to close out Indy before the series shifts back to Indiana for Game 7 ... they get every call.

# 1999, Spurs-Knicks, Game 3 ... down 2-0, the Knicks get every call in their first home game and win their only game of the series.

# 2000, Knicks-Heat, Game 7 ... Knicks advance to the conference finals ... falling out of bounds, Latrell Sprewell awarded a timeout by referee Bennett Salvatore with 2.1 seconds left even though none of the Knicks called for one ... Sprewell admits after the game that he hadn't called a timeout ... the Miami players chase the referees off the court after the game, yelling that they had been robbed ... after the game, Jamal Mashburn tells reporters, "They had three officials in their pocket" and Tim Hardaway refers to referee Dick Bavetta as "Knick Bavetta."

# 2000, Lakers-Blazers, Game 7 ... LA shoots 21 more free throws and rallies back from a 17-point deficit in the final seven minutes ... Shaq plays an illegal defense down the stretch, undaunted ... Rasheed Wallace absolutely gets manhandled down the stretch, yet doesn't get a single call ... up by four with 25 seconds left, Shaq body-blocks Steve Smith out of bounds and the refs don't make the call (the most egregious non-call in recent memory).

# 2002, Celtics-Nets, Game 4 ... Celts up 2-1 ... the Nets are inexplicably allowed to push and shove Kenny Anderson and Pierce while they dribble the ball ... a number of head-scratchers go against Boston, including three offensive charges down the stretch ... four different "bull-(bleep)" chants during the game.

# 2002, Lakers-Kings, Game 6 ... LA needs a win to stay alive ... from an officiating standpoint, the most one-sided game of the past decade ... at least six dubious calls against the Kings in the fourth quarter alone ... LA averaged 22 free throws a game during the first five games of the series, then attempted 27 freebies in the fourth quarter alone of Game 6 ... rumors that David Stern wanted to pull a Vince McMahon and declare himself "The special guest referee" for this game prove unfounded.

(By the way, I would feel remiss if I didn't share this information: Dick Bavetta was assigned to every one of the above games. That's an absolute fact. You can look it up. Doesn't mean anything ... I just felt the need to pass that along. It sure looks bad, doesn't it? Maybe the league could do a favor for Bavetta and not assign him to Game 3 of the Finals, especially if the Lakers jump to a 2-0 lead over New Jersey. You wouldn't want to rile up those conspiracy theorists or anything. Ummmm ...)

Trader Joe
06-13-2008, 04:49 PM
^^^That is the 2002 Simmons excerpt I was referring to. Thanks for posting Anthem.

Unclebuck
06-13-2008, 06:05 PM
ATTENTION UNCLE BUCK:



Either Kegboy is right about the referees or he can predict the future. Which one is it?

he can predict the future

ChicagoJ
06-13-2008, 06:34 PM
If I thought the NBA had integrity, I would have watched more than ten games this season. Well, if the Lakers stretch the finals to seven games maybe I'll have to raise that number to 15.

LG33
06-13-2008, 06:52 PM
Why would they want the Nets to win? Everybody hates the Nets.

Kegboy
06-13-2008, 11:42 PM
he can predict the future

Damn it! I knew Bird was gonna draft Buddinger. :(

waterjater
06-14-2008, 02:05 AM
Here is a great collection of NBA playoff games officiated by Bavetta...

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457311


Thats terrific! Thanks for posting this. And people wonder why some Pacer fans are a little more po'd than others at the NBA when we are part of the first two listed.

Funny, I also had the same thought about Mike Mathis that someone had about Bavetta. Everytime Mathis showed up I figured the game was already lost :)

Water

waterjater
06-14-2008, 02:13 AM
Kersey once lit Micahel Jordan up for a technical foul late in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game, in Chicago nontheless.

It led to the Bulls blowing a big lead late in the game, and they lost in overtime.

I'll always respect Kersey for that. I've never once questioned his impartiality.


Kstat- I'll actually agree with you on Kersey....always thought he was above most of the B.S. (don't die of shock that I agreed with ya :) )

I'm not sure I'll ever get over his blown call on the 4pt play, but other than that, I don't ever remember over the 20 some years of watching the NBA thinking he was a bad official.

Hue Hollins
Dick "the Knick" Bavetta
Mike Mathis
plus Violet (but she's just plain incompetent)

Those 3 (and Ronnie Nunn) always seemed to **** me off every time I watched a game they reffed.

Water

Kegboy
06-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Damn it! I knew Bird was gonna draft Buddinger. :(

Bad news Buck. Guess I can't predict the future.

(Though, there's always next year. :shudder: )

Mourning
06-17-2008, 12:41 PM
he can predict the future

:spitout: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


ALL HAIL TO LORD KEGBOY!!! :bowdown:


:lol: