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waterjater
06-12-2004, 07:25 PM
The Pistons have been great in the NBA Finals AND they have been fortunate with injuries. The lack of injuries to them and the key injuries on the teams they've played.

I really impressed with how the Pistons have played this series thus far and with Larry Brown's education of how to play Shaq finally ingrained in his head. Playing him straight up has been brilliant and I'm glad someone finally figured this out!

Equally impressive is Detroit's ability to avoid a KEY injury to a KEY player. They have actually gotten healthier throughout the playoffs with Rasheed getting healthy. It is amazing how important injuries or the lack thereof can be on the playoff picture.

Detroit plays New Jersey with Kidd and Martin very limited, then Tinsley's playing with a torn hamstring and JO severely sprains his knee.....AND now Karl Malone and Derek Fisher are injured. ALL of the players listed were KEYS to their respective teams success.

So, while Detroit has played impressively in the playoffs, they have also benefited from their opponents lack of good fortune. INJURIES ARE, IN DEED, A KEY PART OF THE GAME!

Lastly, I continue to be impressed with my Pacers as they played Detroit a helluva lot tougher than the Lakers. Wondering if anybody is ready to cut Artest some offensive skill slack now that Tayshawn Prince has shut down and made to shoot bad shots one of the best offensive players to ever put on an NBA uniform in KOBE!! Artest may have performed better against Tayshawn than Kobe!!

Water

Kstat
06-12-2004, 07:47 PM
The Pistons have been great in the NBA Finals AND they have been fortunate with injuries. The lack of injuries to them and the key injuries on the teams they've played.

The Pistons were more injured than Milwaukee in round 1, more injured than NJ in round 2, and the first half of the ECF they were more injured than Indiana for 2 games, until Rasheed's plantar fachiitis broke free, and Billups's back healed up near the end of the ECF.

The only reason our injuries weren;t brought up is because we PLAYED THROUGH THEM.

I really impressed with how the Pistons have played this series thus far and with Larry Brown's education of how to play Shaq finally ingrained in his head. Playing him straight up has been brilliant and I'm glad someone finally figured this out!

You think nobody else has played him straight up before? I recall your own Pacer leaving Rik Smits and DD on him aloone and getting dismantled.

Ben Wallace is pound-for-pound probably the strongest man Shaq has ever played against. Sure he gets beat occasionally, but he's making shaq work so HARD for post position that shaq loses his legs by the 4th quarter. and with them, much of his strength. Coupled with that, Ben is also QUICK enough that he gives shaq trouble dribbling and catching passes.

Equally impressive is Detroit's ability to avoid a KEY injury to a KEY player. They have actually gotten healthier throughout the playoffs with Rasheed getting healthy. It is amazing how important injuries or the lack thereof can be on the playoff picture.

injuries to a KEY player? Neither Billups and Rasheed were close to %100 in the playoffs till the finals. I'll admit Indiana defended chauncey very well, but frankly the guy's back had been giving him problems off the dribble.

And while we're on the subject, we were EASILY the most bange'd up team in the playoffs last year. We were due.

Detroit plays New Jersey with Kidd and Martin very limited, then Tinsley's playing with a torn hamstring and JO severely sprains his knee.....AND now Karl Malone and Derek Fisher are injured. ALL of the players listed were KEYS to their respective teams success.

Kidd i'll somewhat give you, though Kidd certainly didn't look that hurt to me.....he could run just fine, his assists totals were good, he shot like crap....exactly how is this different from the normal Kidd?

*** for KMart, show me where the guy looked injured. PLEASE. He was healthier than his counterpart (Rasheed) the whole series. KMart probably had more dunks than anyone on either team.

As for JO, the guy actually shot BETTER after his "crushing" ankle sprain. Was he %100? I doubt it. Did it affect JO's game at all? Not from what I saw.

Tinsley is the ONLY guy I'll give a free pass to. He was REALLY dragging his foot around. Reminds me sorta of Billup's ankle sprain last year, though Chauncey's was a little worse I think.

As For Fisher and Malone......How exactly does Fisher looked limited on the court? All he is is a spot-up shooter. He has a reputation for defense, but quite frankly he has NEVER been able to stop billups.

I'm really surprised Gary Payton hasn't "leaked" an injurey to the press.......the way he's playing I'm sure he'd get the free pass too:rolleyes:

Malone is pretty hurt yeah, I can tell the way he cant bend his legs like normal on FTs. But frankly how a dirtbag like him was ablw to go his entire career without getting hurt was beyond me to begin with. I'll never cheer a player's injury, but I'm certainly shedding no tears for the guy who CAUSED a lot of guys to wind up on the IR.

Not that I think Malone would have been a big factor anyway. His best attribute is intimidation, and frankly Rasheed isn't scared of him. I'll admit he is a great passer for a big man, but as a scorer he was inconsistent at BEST as a Laker.

So, while Detroit has played impressively in the playoffs, they have also benefited from their opponents lack of good fortune. INJURIES ARE, IN DEED, A KEY PART OF THE GAME!

You summed it up best: A PART OF THE GAME. Injuries MAY have cost us a title in 1988. Injuries MAY have cost LA a title in 1989. Injuries MAY have cost us a 3-peat in 1991.

Injuries are a taboo subject for me. Mostly because they are the ultimate "what if" subject. The thing is, there is NO WAY to prove one way or the other how much injuries factored in. Years go by, rosters change, and in the end nobody but you remembers them.

Nobody remembers Isiah was on crutches before game 7 of 1988.

Nobody remember LA lost Magic Johnson for half the 1989 finals.

Nobody remembers that the Pistons were beat to crap by the time the bulls clobbered them in the 1991 ECF.

Nobody remembers Billups had no buisness being on the COURT for the last 2 rounds of the 2003 playoffs.

History only remembers the team that wins.

Personally I try to forget stuff like that and move on.

sweabs
06-13-2004, 01:20 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:34 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

sweabs
06-13-2004, 01:39 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

Which gives me so much more respect for the guy (Jermaine).
I'm not sure if you've ever hyperextended something before - but damn do I ever have respect for the guy.

And sure - give me a cookie...I'm a little hungry.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:43 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

Which gives me so much more respect for the guy (Jermaine).
I'm not sure if you've ever hyperextended something before - but damn do I ever have respect for the guy.

And sure - give me a cookie...I'm a little hungry.

Oh- I'm well aware what a hyper-extended left knee is.

Its just that I'm also aware the JO before and after the extension wasn't very different.

It has nothing to do with his will to play-his body is just so flexible that he can shake normally-crushing injuries like that off. Quite remarkable actually. Thats what young legs will do for you.

Young
06-13-2004, 01:45 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

Yeah JT's injury[s] had a big impact. He had no lift in his leg.

I remember when he missed a layup on a fast break I really realized he was being effectived heavily by the injury. He had no lift in his leg.

I just hope he gets better.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 01:47 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

Yeah JT's injury[s] had a big impact. He had no lift in his leg.

I remember when he missed a layup on a fast break I really realized he was being effectived heavily by the injury. He had no lift in his leg.

I just hope he gets better.

Billups had the EXACT SAME foot injury last postseason I believe. It wasnt easy watching him hobble around on one foot.

Young
06-13-2004, 01:53 AM
Billups had the EXACT SAME foot injury last postseason I believe. It wasnt easy watching him hobble around on one foot.

I think Tinsley is worse though because doesn't he have like 3 things wrong on the same leg?

Hoop
06-13-2004, 01:59 AM
The fact is - Indiana's injuries were far worse and more detrimental to the team than Detroit's.

So? Did you want a cookie? ;)

And you should say INJURY, not INJURIES, referring only to Jamaal.. If everyone here hadn't seen JO twist his knee in game 4, NOBODY here would have known he was hurt.

Yeah JT's injury[s] had a big impact. He had no lift in his leg.

I remember when he missed a layup on a fast break I really realized he was being effectived heavily by the injury. He had no lift in his leg.

I just hope he gets better.

Billups had the EXACT SAME foot injury last postseason I believe. It wasnt easy watching him hobble around on one foot.

So do you want a *****ing cookie too. :unimpressed:

Kstat
06-13-2004, 02:00 AM
Billups had the EXACT SAME foot injury last postseason I believe. It wasnt easy watching him hobble around on one foot.

I think Tinsley is worse though because doesn't he have like 3 things wrong on the same leg?

I watched Billups last year and Tinsley this year. They were both playing on one leg.

waterjater
06-13-2004, 02:45 AM
Wow, Kstat, I really sent you off :) I did my best to say how impressed I am with Detroit's play in the finals, but I guess you missed that part...understandable.

Anyway, I agree, the Pacers did play Shaq straight up in the 2000 finals and damn near beat the Lakers, a younger, hungrier Lakers. My point, while I might not have said it correctly, is that LARRY BROWN finally figured out that his double Shaq strategy when he coached the Pacers and Sixers really cost him and he learned his lesson. They've double Shaq twice in this series that I remember and both times Gary Payton hit a 3ptr.

Shaq usually gets his 18-30pts regardless of whether you single, double or triple team him, so why waste a defender. Secondly, when you double Shaq, he kicks it out for wide open shots which means Shaq is responsible for many more points than his 18-30pts....generating more like 50+ pts.

As for the injury thing, I partially agree with your comments. Injuries are a big part of the game and the team that avoids serious injuries in the playoffs tends to win.

JO was definitely not the same player post the injury, he was playing an awesome game 4 before the injury and his play was still good but not the same. Tinsley was basically useless on the one leg. As for NJ, hard for me to say other than what I read, but the Fisher and Malone are both way off there normal game. Fisher's defense is usually much better and Malone usually makes most of his jump shots.

I do remember vividily Magic tearing his hamstring and losing in the finals, I remember Webber going down last year, I remember the Kings losing to the Lakers in 7 games because they didn't have Stojakavic because he damn near broke his ankle and I remember most of the ones you mentioned.

Rarely does a team lose two key players and go on to win the NBA finals.

Even after all this, I'm still impressed with how well Detroit has played and I find myself rooting for them, probably because I loved what Larry Brown did for the Pacers back in the 90's!!

Water

Anthem
06-13-2004, 03:17 AM
Oh- I'm well aware what a hyper-extended left knee is.

Its just that I'm also aware the JO before and after the extension wasn't very different.

It has nothing to do with his will to play-his body is just so flexible that he can shake normally-crushing injuries like that off. Quite remarkable actually. Thats what young legs will do for you.

Come on man, the whole board is cheering for your team right now. Don't turn us off by being a jerk.

Jermaine didn't shake anything off. The injury was bad enough that he gave up a spot on the Olympic team, which is something he's been publicly lobbying for over the past 3 years. The doctors say he won't be at full strength until Christmas. Give the man his props for playing hurt.

Kstat
06-13-2004, 03:30 AM
Oh- I'm well aware what a hyper-extended left knee is.

Its just that I'm also aware the JO before and after the extension wasn't very different.

It has nothing to do with his will to play-his body is just so flexible that he can shake normally-crushing injuries like that off. Quite remarkable actually. Thats what young legs will do for you.

Come on man, the whole board is cheering for your team right now. Don't turn us off by being a jerk.

Jermaine didn't shake anything off. The injury was bad enough that he gave up a spot on the Olympic team, which is something he's been publicly lobbying for over the past 3 years. The doctors say he won't be at full strength until Christmas. Give the man his props for playing hurt.

Frankly with 2/3 the board telling me how awful Pistons fans are, you'll forgive me for not feeling all warm about it :unimpressed:

2ndly, I never said he WASNT HURT. I said he wasnt HURT to the point that it affected his game and the series. I'll say it again: if they never showed his injury, you'd never know he was hurt.

As for him giving up the olypmpic team, if he had a HANGNAIL the Pacers would do their best to keep him off the squad. After a long season, the LAST thing players want to do is aggrivate lingering injuries and risk carrying them over into the next season.

I WILL give credit to JO for playing through the pain.

King Mob
06-13-2004, 04:34 AM
I, for one, gained a tremendous amount of respect for JO during that series. He's not the same whiny brat that I watched throw a crossbody block into Corliss, what was it, 2 years ago? (hyberbole, I know) To continue to play after hyper-extending his knee showed tremendous heart.

And to be fair, while Chauncey had a very badly sprained ankle last year, his injury wasn't nearly as bad as Tinsley's, who was already playing on one leg when he sprained his ankle in game 5, I believe.

"Lastly, I continue to be impressed with my Pacers as they played Detroit a helluva lot tougher than the Lakers. "

This has been expressed by several Pacers fans, but doesn't seem entirely logical to me. By the same rationale, can you not argue that you should be dissapointed by the Pacers, since they did not play Detroit as hard as the Nets did?

TheSauceMaster
06-13-2004, 05:51 AM
Tinsley had like 3 or 4 injuries it wasn't just 1 ;)

Jermaine O’Neal summarized: “It was their turn. They’ve put in their time. I’m guessing now we’ve got to put in ours.” now if that isn't a mature statement I dunno what is :)

I really do give alot of credit to the pistons , they seemed like they wanted it more even in the first 3 games than the pacers did , that's hard for me to admit but it's true.

waterjater
06-13-2004, 05:21 PM
"Lastly, I continue to be impressed with my Pacers as they played Detroit a helluva lot tougher than the Lakers. "

This has been expressed by several Pacers fans, but doesn't seem entirely logical to me. By the same rationale, can you not argue that you should be dissapointed by the Pacers, since they did not play Detroit as hard as the Nets did?

Interesting point about the Nets, but I don't agree. We played every game down to the last possession and challenged every shot, I didn't see that in the Nets series. I saw a hobbled Detroit team make a lot of mistakes they didn't make during the season or our series.

JO's injury was a much bigger factor than Kstat will ever admit, but he was nowhere near as effective as he was prior to the injury. He was on fire and getting better in Game 4 until the injury. This, along with, Tinsley being virtually invisible caused this series to end a game early.

Props to Detroit.

Water

ABADays
06-13-2004, 05:26 PM
Somebody mention cookies??? :P

Bball
06-13-2004, 07:43 PM
You summed it up best: A PART OF THE GAME. Injuries MAY have cost us a title in 1988. Injuries MAY have cost LA a title in 1989. Injuries MAY have cost us a 3-peat in 1991.

Injuries are a taboo subject for me. Mostly because they are the ultimate "what if" subject. The thing is, there is NO WAY to prove one way or the other how much injuries factored in. Years go by, rosters change, and in the end nobody but you remembers them.

Nobody remembers Isiah was on crutches before game 7 of 1988.

Nobody remember LA lost Magic Johnson for half the 1989 finals.

Nobody remembers that the Pistons were beat to crap by the time the bulls clobbered them in the 1991 ECF.

Nobody remembers Billups had no buisness being on the COURT for the last 2 rounds of the 2003 playoffs.

History only remembers the team that wins.

Personally I try to forget stuff like that and move on.

Looks like you need to -try- harder!!! Pretty good memory there....

:P

-Bball